Woman's Hour - 25/08/2025

Episode Date: August 25, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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Hello, I'm Kylie Pentelow and welcome to Women's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Now, for many of us, a bank holiday Monday, so I hope you're enjoying your day so far. We have got plenty coming up, including how being stalked can increase your risk of having a stroke or heart attack. We'll be finding out about why this could be. Also, the woman who knows everything you possibly can about Jane Austen joins me to talk about her new book.

It's all about the only love affair that Jane Austen is rumoured to have had. We'll speak to Paula Byrne about her novel. Plus, we'll be hearing whether boys and girls should be taught together about periods and about just how much or how little children are told about menstruation in schools. And he might have heard the actress Helen Mirren on turning 80, has been speaking about those words that people use about her that she loathes, things like feisty and sweet. She says there's something very condescending about some people's attitudes

and I think they think they're being kind and generous, but they're not. They're being insulting, she says. So we want to hear from you about this. What's so-called terms of endearment really get your goat? Those words or phrases that although kindly meant are actually very irritating. and have those words that people use about you changed as you've got older. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email us through our website too. Or send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 0-3700-100-444. We always like to hear from you, so do get in touch. But first, we've got a real treat for you this morning. with some wonderful live music. Now, back in 2012, Sussex-born cellist Lara Vanda Hayden was crowned BBC Young Musician of the Year at the age of 15.

Well, fast forward 13 years, and she's now been named as the Royal Philharmonic Society's Instrumentalist of the Year, and will be the artist in residence at this year's Lamamore Festival in Scotland, where she'll be performing everything from Brahms to Gaelic Psalms, from folk to jazz, as both a soloist and an ensemble player in six performances. across 12 days. And I'm very delighted to say that Laura is with me

in the Women's Hour studio, of course, with her cello. Welcome to Women's Hour, Laura. Thanks for having me. So great you're here. You're still only 28. And you can hear just from that introduction there. You've achieved so much. When you first picked up the cello,

did you expect it would become your life? Definitely not. No. It's something that I just enjoyed a lot as a child. And I think at that age, actually, I wanted to be a musical clown. That was my dream. I'm pretty silly and I do play music.

So maybe I am a musical clown, I don't know. But I definitely didn't think that I'd be doing it as a career. It obviously takes up so much of your life, but you do have a break from it. You've been on holiday. You left it at home, didn't you? Is it important to have that break? I think so.

I think it really is. The only frustrating thing is that you get out of shape, of course, and you lose the calluses on your fingers and then you have to work them back in again. In just a couple of weeks. Yeah, it really goes away frustratingly quickly, considering how long I've been playing. But I think it's really good to have time away from the instrument

and just be in a completely different world for a while. And you like a bit of nature, a bit of bird watching, I hear? Yes, I was doing some bird watching this morning, actually. We just got a bird feeder. And because I'm on quite early today, I got up a bit earlier than normal, and I saw all the birds come to the bird feeder. And it's just such a nice way to.

to start the day. So listening to nature is important to you as well as listening to music. Definitely, definitely. What is it about it that you like? I think it just sort of takes you out of all the stresses of day-to-day life and I think we're very disconnected from nature nowadays

with screens and everything and it's so easy to get sucked into all of that. And I realised as I was watching the birds, I could do it for hours and not think of anything else, not do anything else and just observe the way that they are with each other. and be taken out of, yeah, the stresses, I think, of the world currently. Yeah, it's very mindful, isn't it?

I mentioned the festival. You'll be performing in several different configurations, collaborations too. You're flying solo for us today, though. And with your performance, tell us about the piece that you've chosen to play for Women's Hour today and why. So this piece is sort of maybe showing the end of summer. It's called Fall of the Leaf.

Very timely. Yes, exactly. It's by Image and Hulse, and I'll just be playing two little bits from. it. And one of the bits that is in that piece reminds me of indeed falling leaves, but also of the pitta-patter of raindrops. It's pizocato on the cello, and I find it a very evocative piece. It was written in 1963, and she is mostly known as being the daughter of Gustav Holst and the assistant to Britain. And when I was thinking about coming on the program and talking about

her, those were the two things that came to mind. And obviously, I think it's a great shame that lots of female composers are sort of sister of, daughter of, rather than just, you know, important in their own name. Well, I can't wait to hear it if you'd like to go over and take your place next to your wonderful cello over there. So let's hear it. This is Imogen Holst's Fall of the Leaf and it's been performed by Laura Vanda Hayden. Take it away. Wow, that was absolutely beautiful.

Laura, thank you so much. That was Imogen Holst's Fall of the Leaf. I can see what you mean as you come back over to take your play so I could speak to you some more Lauer. I can see what you mean about the raindrops too. It's really evocative, isn't it? That was absolutely beautiful. Performing solo, which do you prefer being with other musicians or performing on your own? Well, I don't want to say now that I prefer not playing on my own because I did enjoy that.

But one of the things I love about music is that it's a form of communication. And I love the things that can happen interpersonally when you're playing with other people. and I also just think it's a bit less scary. You won, as we mentioned, BBC Young Musician of the Year. You had poise and self-possession then in the same way that you do now, but that must have brought about an awful lot of attention. What was that like at the age of 15? It was an interesting ride, definitely.

I remember very distinctly that in the final, I actually didn't feel that nervous. I just felt really excited and it was an amazing experience to play with a professional orchestra and with a professional conductor in a way that I hadn't done before. But then the following day, actually it was in a radio interview and I suddenly felt so nervous and I felt all the pressure and the kind of eyes on me and expectation as well. So it's a bit of a double-edged sword at that age. And I think it started my career in a way that I probably would have never had had I not won,

but also it's taken a long time to work through all of those fears. And I'm still working on it today, really. And how has that affected you, do you think, in the fact that you still have to perform? You know, you are on stage and all those eyes on you. How does that feel? Observation is a sort of weird thing as a musician. I was just having a conversation with a friend about this

where I don't necessarily know that I'm somebody that loves being observed. But of course, if you're a performer, that's what people are doing. But I'm kind of doing it because I love music. I love harmony. I love stories in chamber groups. I always try to make up stories that go with the pieces just because I connect to it better that way. So in some ways, I'm not doing it to have that moment of observation and to perform, but I love being swept up in the music.

And actually, I find it easiest when I kind of forget about the audience. Some performers find it really better to connect and think about them actively and how they want to address the audience, whereas I feel best when I'm kind of in the zone and not thinking too much about the audience. Let's go back to when you first picked up the cello. It wasn't the first instrument you learned, was it? No, I started with the recorder, as many children did.

I don't know if they are still doing that, but... Oh, I hope so. I loved my recorder at school. Yeah, and actually I took recorder quite seriously. I know that sometimes recorder isn't seen as a serious instrument, but I really loved the recorder. I had a beautiful, big wooden one that had a really low sound. I loved it so much. So you weren't just playing three blind mice?

Well, at the beginning I was, but then I graduated from that piece. Yeah, I started with recorder, and then I moved on to piano, and then I started cello at six. And all the teachers were living in my village, and it was just a very, very special way to start my life as a musician. And you grew up in a bilingual family, Dutch father, Swiss mum. Were you very musical in that family? family? Yeah, my dad is as an amateur musician and loves music. My mum is much more maths brained. I

didn't quite inherit that from her much to her annoyance sometimes. But she did teach me and I learned a lot from her in that way. But I think music and language are quite connected. And also even it's just great to speak different languages as a musician because you meet people from all over the world. Were you introduced to quite diverse music then as a child? medium, I would say medium diverse. My dad loved listening to classical music at home. We had on the radio a lot, but also they loved music from the 50s, 60s and 70s and 80s maybe at a push. Yeah. How easy is it do you think for you to move between types of music? We talked to, you know, we've talked obviously about the fact that you're deep into classical music at the moment. But is there ever an opportunity to go into other areas? What's really amazing about the music world currently is that I feel like genres are blending together and there are a few amazing musicians who are doing a bit of everything and really carving out their own niche, people like Abel Salachoyer, Jess Gillam is doing it, Anna Lapwood is doing it,

Shaky Cana Mason's doing it, everyone's doing it, and I love that actually. I think some people are worried about classical music losing its sort of tradition, whereas I think music is such a moving thing and all music is similar in a way in that it addresses people's feelings and I don't see the difference between classical or modern or pop or anything like that and I think bringing people in

and merging those styles is such a great idea and I wish I had a bit more training in it because then I might feel a bit more comfortable but I love listening to music that's not classical so I hope to do more of it in the future and you've got quite a range of things that you're doing at the La Mammao festival that we talked about in Scotland next month.

So what kind of things will you be doing? What kind of performances can people expect? So there are a couple of chamber performances, two with Collidercope Chamber Collective, who are a group that I adore playing with. Those are the first two concerts. And then I'm also joining the Maxwell Quartet to play Schubert Quintet,

which is one of the great classics. I'm doing Brahms Double with Maria Wachowska, which should be really fun. I was just practicing it earlier because it's really hard. And then a duo program with Jams Coleman of our Path to the Moon album, which has a real mix of different pieces, some slightly jazzy pieces, some more classical. And then one of the concerts that I think I'm looking forward to most is much more fokey and mixed classical and a bit jazzy as well with Chimbalon,

which is an amazing hammered stringed instrument and double bass and violin. And that should be really fun. I might sing as well if I am brave enough. Well, it sounds wonderful, very busy. Lara Vanda Hayden, thank you so much. And just to say a reminder that Laura is performing, as we sit at the Lemma Festival, between Thursday the 4th and Monday the 15th of September

in East Lothian in Scotland. How wonderful to hear that performance. Thank you so much. We've been asking you about those words that people use about you that you find particularly irritating. It's because Herramillan says, She loathes being called feisty or sweet. Well, lots of you have been getting in touch.

There are obviously lots of words that you don't like as well. Let's have a look at a few of them. This person here says, being told you're a star or called sweetheart, really grates on me and feels condescending. This started around age 50. Coming from Yorkshire, though, I don't mind being called love. Well, Zoe from the Isle of Wight, says, I hate the response, bless.

Some people use it to punctuate everything you say. I find it so condescending and patronising. It will turn me off with the seemingly nicest of people. And another one here saying, Oh, bless. Get it whenever I ring a helpline where the call handler knows my age. And I say something vaguely entertaining. And just one more here.

Deer is a much loathed address, patronising and increasingly used as an address as I've got older. In my experience, not used to address the mail of the species. There's the key, isn't it? Women use it to address other women and it's much loved in medical settings. I think we should all ask how we would like to be addressed and take it from there. Thanks so much for your comments. I'll continue to read them out as we go along. The number is 84844. We always like to hear your thoughts. And this one is particularly one that's getting you going, so do keep them coming in. But next, women who've been stalked or had to take out a

restraining order have a much higher chance of suffering a heart attack or a stroke. Well, that's according to a new study from Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. Well, it followed a group of over 66,000 women across 10 years and found that those who'd been stalked were 41% more likely to develop cardiovascular disease, with those taking out a restraining order, 71% more likely to have heart problems. According to the latest data from the crime survey for England and Wales, one in five women in the UK have been a victim of stalking and that figures even higher in the US. Well, to do you talk more about this? I'm joined on the line by one of the lead researchers of this study. Dr. Audrey Merchland, thank you very much for your time here on Women's Hour.

Thanks for having me. These are shocking findings, aren't they? Why was this study carried out in the first place. We were interested in understanding women's cardiovascular health. Cardiovascular disease is a leading cause of death among women worldwide, and we were interested in understanding kind of experiences in women's lives that may be shaping their risk of cardiovascular disease. There's a growing body of work showing that intimate partner violence and experiences of violence increase risk of cardiovascular disease, but there's been less attention afforded to non-contact forms of violence, such as stalking. And so we were really interested in kind of starting to evaluate whether experiences such as stalking are linked with women's cardiovascular health. So how did it work? How was this

research carried out? So we utilized data that came from the Nurses Health Study 2, which is a large prospective cohort of U.S. female nurses. Over 100,000 women in U.S. female nurses were enrolled in 1989 and they've been followed since. They're contacted every two years to ask questions. about their health, health outcomes, health behaviors, and different exposures. In 2001, a subc cohort of over 66,000 women were asked a survey about experiences of trauma and violence, which included exposures to violence such as stalking and taking out a restraining order. And among these women, we've looked at women who did not have previous history of heart attacks or strokes. And so we looked at individuals who reported experiences stalking and looked at how the risk of heart

attacks or strokes from 2001 through the end of follow-up about 2021. So over 20 years of follow-up and we looked at kind of risk over that period. So what did you find then and what was surprising to you? So we found that women who reported having experienced stalking in their lifetime by 2001 had 41% increased risk of an incident heart attack or stroke over 20 years of follow-up. And when who reported obtaining a restraining order, which may or may not have been linked with the stocking, at an increased risk of 70% increased risk of heart attack or stroke over that 20-year follow-up. And our results were robust to accounting for socio-demographic, as well as lifestyle factors and health conditions as well. So the results really seem robust to different

kind of sensitivity analyses we conducted to see kind of how robust results were. And these are serious life-threatening conditions, aren't they are they're very serious outcomes with profound impacts on women's health and well-being so when we think about experiences such as stocking often we think about women's mental health and well-being but our results are really showing that also these these experiences are quite severe and impactful and they can really also impact women's physical health and cardiovascular health over the long term as well well back in 2020 on a special woman's hour program specifically looking at stalking. TV presenter and podcaster, Ila Trequare, spoke to us about her experience

of stalking and the impact it had on her. I'm not okay. It's devastated me who I am. I'm a confident, outgoing, positive person. I was someone who viewed every day as an adventure. I was brave. I've confronted murderers and that didn't scare me anything near the terror I went through living in this idyllic countryside home. The, you know, nightmares, I've got PTSD. I find going to the shops. It's not like a rational thing of, I don't think he's going to jump out from a corner or anything like that,

but I just feel unsafe in the world, and it's shaking me to my court. Stocking victims are serial victims, and what a stalker takes from you, you cannot get back. And that's your sense of safety. I'm essentially a potential victim for the rest of my life. That was Ila Trequire there talking about her own experience. So Dr. Merchland, what kind of impact can that constant fear have on the body? I really think the length that we're observing between stocking and cardiovascular disease

may be due to the psychological distress that women are experiencing. So this flight or fight response that we even just heard this victim describe and that you're always looking over your shoulder, you're always in a state of heightened distress and concern for your safety. And we believe over long periods of times, this is disrupting the nervous system, impairing proper blood vessel functioning, and it can affect other biological mechanisms that's leading to increase cardiovascular disease over follow-up like we're seeing in our study. From personal experience about 10 years ago, I experienced stalking myself,

and I was given tips by the police about my safety, which was hugely useful. things like changing my route home from work, driving around around about twice to make sure I wasn't being followed. Like I said, very useful. But that sense of being on high alert for a long time did cause that stress. So do you think, therefore, that we should be thinking about stalking as a health condition? I think we should be thinking about stalking, not just as a criminal justice issue or a safety issue, but a public health issue that warrants additional research and attention that can focus on improving, addressing, preventing,

and improving violence against women societally, and can focus also at improving health systems that can support survivors of these experiences long term. So do you think women then who have been the victim of stalking should think about being checked over by a doctor? I'd first like to highlight that our findings don't necessarily mean that everyone that has experienced stalking will have harder tax or strokes. Of course. We see that first that instead, risk is higher on average and highlight how serious these experiences can be, which may also validate women's experiences of stalking. For women that are experiencing stocking, I would encourage them to connect with advocacy services and, of course, connect also with their healthcare provider.

our study isn't able to speak to individual level recommendations and instead I'd really like to kind of focus on zooming out and thinking about what are the ways in which we can prevent these experiences for women in the first place and also provide kind of better systems level responses to survivors of these experiences a long term to improve their health. Just finally then is the next stage for you looking at the direct link and why this happens within the body? Yes, I think the next stage in research is both to validate the findings

in additional kind of other populations that have other demographic profiles and different experiences, as well as looking more particularly at the mechanisms that we're seeing between stalking and other non-contact forms of violence and these cardiovascular profiles to better understand ways in which we might screen or intervene to improve health over time among survivors. It's a really interesting research, Dr. Audrey Merchland, thank you. you very much for your time here on Women's Hour. Now, I've been

asking you about those so-called terms of endearment, if you like, that really wind you up. We have plenty of them coming in. It's after Hera Millen spoke about being called sweet or feisty. Joe here says, who would dare to call Helen Mirren sweet? I find it very

hard to believe. She says, I don't like being called lovely, as in hello lovely. Yuck, she says. This one here from Jenny says, used to say, don't call me dear, call me expensive. I like that one. This says, Catherine in Bath says, I've always hated, oh, you're a dark horse when someone discovers something interesting about me. I always want to reply, I'm really not a mysterious dark horse. You just haven't asked me anything about myself and have assumed I'm not interesting.

Catherine says, I feel annoyed just thinking about this. Thank you so much for your comments. We've got lots of them. I'll try to get to all of them by the end of the the program 84844 do keep them coming in. But now we have yet another treat for you this Monday, Bank Holiday Monday for many of us. Paula Byrne, she's Jane Austen's biographer and also a novelist, who spent 25 years researching and writing about the iconic author has joined me in the studio.

Now her novel, Six Weeks by the Sea, is her first fictional treatment of Austin. After three acclaimed non-fiction books, including 2013's The Real Jane Austen, A Life in Small Things. Well, in this, the 250th anniversary of Jane Austen's birth, Paula's book tells the story of how she imagines the most famous romance writer of all time, first fell in love. Paula, it's very intriguing.

Welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you. It's lovely to be here. I have to say, it is a very nice read. I highly recommend it. I wondered after 25 years of learning, analyzing, recording everything, Miss Austin, though, what made you want to recreate this love affair

when you're not really sure it even took place, are you? Well, do you know, there's one question that keeps coming up in my 25 years of thinking, writing, lecturing, talking about Joan Austen. The audience always say, did she fall in love? And I've dismissed that over the years. I've just thought, oh, here we go again. Boring, she was in love with her work.

We don't need to go down there. But I started to rethink it because somebody said, how could she have written it? This was Virginia Woolf. How could she have written persuasion? How could, and other people have said the same, if she didn't know what it was like to fall in love? So I went back to Cassandra's story about the seaside romance, well documented by the family. So it did happen.

We just don't know much about it. So the impulse was that question. Did she herself fall in love? So how would you say you've written, Jane, and what parts of her personality did you want to bring out through this book? Well, her playfulness, obviously. her wit. And again, quoting Wolf, she said, who has a temerity to write about Jane Austen? I took on that challenge. I wanted to present her as sort of naughty little sister. She's saying outrageous things to make Cassandra laugh. That's her place in the family dynamics. So she's

irreverent. If you read the letters, she is so mischievous. She's so naughty. She makes terribly bad taste jokes. So I want to, she's 25 in my novel. And I just wanted to bring out this irreverent, feisty. formidable, playful, funny, witty person. And it was a huge challenge. It's interesting you use the word feisty there. That's something that Helen Mirren said she didn't like to be used. But I think that's quite appropriate here for Jane. Because she is, yeah, she's interesting, isn't she?

She's quite probably not what I would have expected from her in this novel. And I really like her. Oh, I'm so pleased. You know, this is the woman who makes, you know, one of them, most terrible jokes about miscarriage ever. I wanted that, Jane. I didn't want this Victorian spinster. I wanted this Georgian as a playful, irreverent.

She is very much a project of her time, but she's very much the product of being part of a big family. So I had that in mind the whole time. What is it like when you're number six? You're making everyone laugh. You're vying for your place in that family. You've got to be funny or you won't get heard. You must have done so much research over the years,

but did you have to do anything different to write this book? Oh, that is a good question. I did a lot more work on the Navy because one of the main characters is Frank, who was only a year apart, sort of Irish twin vibe. So I did a lot of work on Frank. So I did lots and lots of research. I went to Nelson's shipyards in Plymouth, Portsmouth. I did all of that research.

I read Robert Southey on Nelson. So I really immersed myself in the culture of the Navy, which wasn't at the time a knowledge base for me. So there were new things. But obviously a lot of it, I'm just steeped in this. I know, I kind of know the language. I know the jokes. I know it.

So it didn't have to do too much. But it's very different writing creatively. And it is like putting your soul out there and saying crush it, you know, go and stand all over it. And again, it was Virginia Woolf said, the closest thing you can do as a biography is, write down all the facts and write a novel. That's the only way you're going to get inside someone. And I sat myself that task on the 250th. Okay, I'll do it.

But I'll do it for six weeks only. And it does take you through a week by week. doesn't it? Tell us about Samuel Rose, who is the focus of Jane's attention. Well, who is this mystery man? So Cassandra, the sister, talking about this romance years later, described him as extremely handsome, amiable. She's describing him in comparison to someone else, but it's too complicated. And she said he was the only man worthy of my sister's love. So I was thinking, well, what kind of man would be worthy of this woman, this incredible woman's love? So to me, I found this real life character, Samuel Rose. It's not him.

but he was an abolitionist, he was a lawyer, he was a poet, he was an editor, he was a friend of William Cooper who happened to be Jane Austen's favourite poet and I was like, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, handsome, all of that. So it was an easy task in some ways to get inside him because I knew quite a bit about him, but it's not him. But I thought that is the kind and she was obviously, and as an abolitionist herself, I think she would have been drawn to somebody who really cared about. the abolitionist movement. So he was just my perfect fit. Shall we hear a bit of the novel then? This is where you describe Samuel seeing Jane on her way home. Mr Rose fixed his eyes on a green parasol heading up the beach, advancing briskly. Miss Jane had been dipped early that Thursday morning and was returning for her warming dish of chocolate. She was without her veil, and as she approached, he observed her quick and bright eyes and the way she had of turning them swiftly on an object and holding them there. Her eyebrows

like musical slurs were a shade darker than her hair. Her face was utterly captivating with a frankness of expression he had not seen before in a woman. And that, the utterly, the frankness of expression is something that was said about Jane Austen and her eyes. And I'm also tapping into Elizabeth Bennett there because of the big dark eyes. So it was just that he glances her earlier on But I just like this idea of this parasol coming up And she's walking briskly And we know Jane Austen was a walker

And a brisk walker So it's just these little things Little moments that I wanted just to bring alive Because we know so little about her really Which is great because it gives me licence To make it up, you know And it's called Six Weeks By the Sea Was it important then for you to base it by the sea

And why? And Six Weeks By the Sea is a quotation from Sanderton, her seaside novel that she was writing around about the time. Well, she was dying, actually. So I had this idea, and we know that Cassandra said she fell in love in 1801, in the summer of 801. Where was she there? And she was in Sidmouth. And I love Sidmuth.

And I've written about Sidmuth in my previous Jane Austen book because her great love was the sea. She did love being dipped. Now, in those days, women didn't swim. They were dipped in by a dipper. Yeah, explain that. When I first read that, I was like, what is this? So what would happen is on one half of the beach, meant they could swim naked, do their thing.

And at the other end of the beach, women would go into the sea in a different time. They'd go into a bathing hut. They would disrobe, put on a muslin gown, be rolled down to the water's edge. And then a burly dipper, they were called dippers. Barely women would dip women three times into the sea. And Jane Austen writes about this in her letters.

And she says, oh, I was dipped. I loved her so much I stayed and I think I've caught a cold. So I just love this image of the freedom. And I was thinking a little bit of Kate Chopin's The Awakening, which is just a marvellous novel, feminist novel, about how women are liberated by swimming. So I had this idea, we know she love being dipped in the sea. So I just had this lovely image of his seas are being dipped,

and she's a bit embarrassed and she's not wearing her best gown, and she was as sandy. So I just really wanted to bring her life the importance of the seaside. She was writing the great seaside novel, Persuasion. Of course, Lyme Regis is a huge part. people were flocking from Bath and all these the towns that were coming to the seaside better roads we can get to the seaside all of a sudden

novels are beginning to be set by the seaside and you get rogues you get all sorts of characters so for me it was easy I just love the sea I was brought up by the sea and Sidmouth was just the perfect location and good for your health you know that be going for a holiday by the sea The sea air?

Yeah, the doctors were writing saying, you can drink the sea, you can go out the sea air, you can go in November. She was dipped in November, actually, it was freezing. So all the efficacious benefits of being by the sea, which is what Sanditin's about. Santon's about entrepreneur who says, come to the seaside, you can get well, you can get healthy, you can drink green tea, you can be Gwyneth Poldrope. You know, it was that kind of vibe. So I just really, it was just so much fond for me. And, of course, I went back to Sidmouth over and over again to get the feel of the place and describe the seaside and what it held for her. Part of the book talks about a young girl called Leah, who Jane Austen takes an interest in.

Tell us more about her and why you wanted to explore her situation. Well, I wrote a book about Dido Bell, who was the mixed race girl that was raised by Lord Mansfield, who was so important in the abolitionist movement. And I'm mindful of the fact that in Sanderton, one of Jane Austen's main characters is a mixed race, rich girl. And so I know this is something that interested Jane Austen, and I know she knew of Dido Bell and she knew of another woman called Sarah Redhead who married an aristocrat, who was of mixed race. So to me it was an easy move to explore some of these abolitionists, because I wanted to place that in Jane Austen's historical con. She cared about it was an outrage, what was having. happening and she was at the forefront. People say, well, she wasn't political. Well, she was. That's just not true. So Leah was always a really important path. She was a conduit really for

some of those debates that were so current in the time. We spoke a little earlier in the program about stalking. And when I was researching you, I see it's something you've experienced. Without going into specifics here, do you think it had any impact on your health? Yeah, I had heart attack. Gosh. So massively. And when I was under, when I was in surgery, obviously I wasn't, I was sedated. And when I got out, my cardiologist, Dr. Louis said, so what on earth happened when you were stalked? I said, what are you talking about? He said, you were talking about being stalked while I was operating on you. So I was so interested to hear your previous guest talk about that because there is no doubt in my mind, the stress. And it was a woman who stalked me, by the way, and she stalked me for five years. you would recognise then that need for women who are in this situation to get health care. 100%. I was very moved to hear that because I didn't pay attention to what was happening, you know, to my body. And I was very lucky because I caught mine before, you know, it was obviously not fatal because I'm here.

But I, you know, there's no doubt about the correlation. The body keeps the score and the stress of all that comes through in the body. Do you think it was that kind of fight or flight mode? that you were in that was causing that constant tension? Yeah, I think my central nervous system was activated and was completely activated for the whole time. Her blood pressure was sky high.

I had the pains in the chest. But again, being a woman, I ignored it. Carried on. It was just pain. It's probably just bronchitis. Ignore, ignore, ignore, ignore. And actually, it was a female, it was a nurse, a female nurse who, when I came in, they said, you're fine. And this female nurse said, I've seen women have heart attacks in the car park. Try again.

Try again. She saved my life. Went back in. The doctor said, yeah. you're going to write down, we're taking you down now. So it was a female nurse that saved my life. Thank you for sharing that with us. You're not only an Austin biographer. There's lots of other things. You're a novelist, of course, as well.

Teacher, family counsellor listed as well. So where did this passion? Because you clearly are very passionate about Jane Austen. Where did it come from? Well, do you know, I fell enough when I was 14. I'll try to keep the story short, but my teacher at school didn't like me. He didn't allow me to sit. my GCSE English literature

at O level in those days so I took myself off to night school at 14 because I knew he was wrong and the teacher there was inspiration he was teaching Mansfield Park and I opened that first page and I fell in love with Jane Austen and I just pledged that I would dedicate my life and that woman has taken me all over the world

she's been just a source of utter joy in my life that's fantastic and of course 250 years since her birth this year. I guess this is the biggest year for a Jane Austen biographer, is it? We're all writing our books. We're all getting them out. And I just thought, oh, look, I'll have fun with this. It's not a deep book. It's just six weeks. And it was just the only time to do it. And it's wonderful. We're seeing all these fantastic programs about Jane Austen. We still love her. We're still thinking about her. We're still writing about her. There's more adaptations. We're never going to get enough of her. We can't get enough of her.

It's, when I was reading it, I feel like I was reading a Jane Austen. Is that what you wanted? Yes. Thank you, Kylie. No, that's exactly because I really wanted to get inside and the rhythms of her speech and the jokes. So a lot, some of the jokes I made up, but a lot of them are her own jokes because she's so funny. And I thought, how can you create this person who is the funniest person in the English language as far as I'm concerned, second to none? and how do I do that?

How do I make her witty? Well, it's quite easy because we've got the letters and also we've got the novels. Well, it's fantastic to talk to you. Paula Byrne, thank you so much for coming in to the Women's Hour studio today and six weeks by the sea is published this week. And Paul is also on a book tour

if you want to hear her talk more about the book and also about the life of Jane Austen. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. We have got lots of your comments coming in about those phrases that really get to your goat. This one here, doesn't the fact that Helen gets irritated when receiving what she knows is a well-meaning compliment

demonstrate that she is indeed a bit feisty? Hmm, that's interesting. What gets my goat, Carolyn says, people who can't take a compliment. This one here from Maggie at 88, I hate Sprightly, drives me nuts. This one here says, I'm a teacher and I hate it when my students call me mate or bud. I quickly point out that I am not their mate or their bud. I don't like mate either.

Someone here says PAL is becoming very common in Scotland. Can be annoying is used by and for men or women. And just one more. When I was clubbing in my mid-forties, I would frequently have much younger people say, wow, you're so amazing. I hope I'm still doing this when I'm your age. I'm sure it was meant as a compliment,

but drawing attention to our visible difference in age, When I just wanted to be in the moment and dance was a massive buzzkill for me. Fortunately, I still enjoy dancing, but I avoid events where I know everyone will be in their early 20s. It's a bit sad. That was from Kathy. I know exactly what you mean. I hate that kind of I like to do this when I'm your age comment. Do keep them coming in and we've got just enough time to read a few more.

But next, new government guidance on sex education coming in next year doesn't include specific information on how children should be taught about mental. despite a new study showing children don't get enough lessons on the subject or researchers from University College London claim children get, at most, two sessions on periods and they say boys and girls should be taught about it together. Well, the study was led by Professor Joyce Harper from the UCL Institute for Women's Health, and she joins me now, along with Tina Leslie from the charity Freedom for Girls, which provides period education. Thank you to both of you for your time today on Women's Hour.

Can I start with you? So what did you find out about education on this subject? Well, when I started this study, it was interesting because a few people said to me, but we do know how women feel about their periods and what they learn, but we haven't actually done a scientific study to ask them. So running these focus groups, I felt was really essential to talk to women and discuss these issues in detail. So women don't feel they've had enough education. I think one or two lessons during our school life is nowhere near enough. And the issue about boys not being taught or being separated off and being taught

something slightly different about periods, I think is really historic. And I think we have to remove the stigma. The stigma was the word that many of the women and the girls I've spoken to have said. And also for women, this really had an effect on them with their husbands, their partners,

their male colleagues at work. They didn't understand about what the women were going through and a lot of misuse of language, etc., because the guys weren't taught. So we are heading in the right way, and the Department of Education have done a fabulous job by including now

that we've got to teach this and we've got to teach about difficult periods. But we do have a long way to go to really integrate this, not just in the UK, but globally. And the women you spoke to were 18 and older, weren't they? So could this be out of date? Mike, things have got better since they were at school?

Well, I have done the study with teenage girls as well. We went into four schools and did eight focus groups with girls who were around the age of 15. So this paper's not out yet. It's hopefully being out very, very soon. And everything they said, I was really not shocked to know that what the 15 year olds were saying totally corresponded with the women that even in the perimenopause, it's just amazing that this hasn't really significantly improved over those. decades. And so it's got to be done. We've got to do it now. And we've got to remove the stigma of menstruation. Almost every woman will menstruate. We'll have about 500 menstrual cycles and 500 periods through our lives. We need to just normalise this. Some people say to me, oh, but we shouldn't educate boys. It's embarrassing and they're embarrassed and the girls are in about. No, we've got to normalise this and get this out there. Women shouldn't be putting this, you know, something in that we hide in the cupboard or under the rug, menstruation is a normal bodily function and we've got to discuss it. Tina, if I can bring you in, your charity tackles period poverty, but you're so regularly

going to schools, don't you? And you talk to boys and girls together. So how are the boys reacting when you're talking to them about periods? We do talk to them together, but we also talk to them separately as well. I mean, period education, you know, you probably get two 50 minutes minutes lessons in your whole, you know, school life. If you miss them, you've got no idea what's going on. We talk mainly about physiology and biology rather than personal preparation and lived experience. We think that period education for girls should start a lot younger

to cut that stigma and taboo. We think, yes, at some point or other, within the school curriculum, boys should come together with the girls and be taught that education. You know, boys don't need to know how to insert a tampon at the end of the day, but they do need to know what happens with, you know, as people who are menstruating.

I mean, I suppose that, you know, the difference between teaching biology and providing, you know, education. And, you know, the menstrual cycle is the menstrual cycle. You know, it's a lot more than just bleeding. You know, we get the talk that, they get the talk of that in sex education. It's a lot more than that. It's your hormones, what you're going through. What's normal? What's not normal?

what's a discharge you know we need to know all that sort of thing and the education you know it it varies in schools it absolutely varies in schools if you have a teacher who doesn't know a lot about you know periods and what happens to people or if it's a man it almost like provides that stigma because they're sort of embarrassed talking about it which is why it's a good thing to get people to come in who know a lot more about it um in schools we've spoken to hundreds of girls and you know it's very very different across the board with schools. You know, some schools are really good at it. If you think about now, nowadays,

girls are starting periods at eight, eight years old, and then not getting period education until probably year six, year five or year six. And then again, you know, in year 11, no, not a year 11, but, you know, a lot later. So if you're missing this, you know, you don't know. And again, it's with the boys, you know, we've got that stigma and taboo around, you know,

they don't understand. And again, it needs to be at some point, you know, having that discussion together. And I think really what we need to do is, you know, just look at the whole curriculum and how we're going to teach that and make it more effective and more person-centered. Because if you're having a 50-minute lesson and the teacher has to get through this lesson plan, you know, there's no scope for kids to ask questions at the end. You've made a... A film, Tina, that is shown in classrooms. We can hear a clip of it in a moment. But just to set the seam, a young girl's on a school bus

and a boy comes to sit next to her and he's spotted that she's on her period and has leaked onto her clothes and passes her a jumper to cover the stain. You've got a mark. Mark? No, no, no. Like a mock, mark.

You know, and you're, I weren't looking her out, I just thought I'd tell you. But here, just use this. Sorry, you'll be all right, yeah? My sister, she was like, you know, like the same. Anyway, don't worry about the jumper. So, what's the boy's reaction to? Tina, when you show that. And is that realistic?

Do you think boys would step up and do that and help a girl? You would hope so in this day and age. You would hope so in 2025 that that is the norm. But I don't think it is the norm. It's more likely to be belittled or, you know, bullied about it. That film, you know, we made back in 2019. And it was, you know, it was really poignant at the time because we have this toxic trio of period poverty, education,

and stigma and taboo. That's what we call like a toxic trio. And if you're suffering all those, it's just really, really difficult to get out of it, which is why the education is really, really important for everybody. And, you know, we're in 2025 now. Why is this education not happening? Why is there still this taboo going on? Why don't we talk openly about, you know, periods, you know, from a young age? So like Joyce was saying, we need to normalise periods. Half the population menstruate? Why are we still, you know, hiding our tampons under our sleeves when we go to the, you know, the toilet? Then why don't we talk about it? Why is there still shame? But, you know, hopefully, um, with the, you know, social media and things like that, it's showing that,

you know, it is an important subject and it is more and more getting out there in, you know, in the wider world. And, but I, again, we have a long, long way to go, unfortunately. And like Joy said, with her focus groups. We've spoke to hundreds of kids and the education is there but it's just not good enough. We've just had a comment here from a head teacher. They say I'm a head teacher of a school

and all of our menstruation and period education is done in mixed classes. This came about from an anonymous survey for all our girls who felt overwhelmingly and very strongly that the boys should be included in the lesson. On a recent ski trip, one of the girls quite openly without shame or any embarrassment asked me or told me that she had started her period at the top of the mountain and I took my rucksack off and asked which of the period products I had in my bag she would like to use

and she was both comforted and reassured that the topic was not taboo. Joyce, that's what you were saying, isn't it, about the taboo around this and Tina was saying, you know, hiding a tampon on the way to the loo. It's like, yes, something I do, you know, I don't want people to see it. So, you know, should all lessons be taught with boys there, even, you know, even those products that boys will never use, but should they have some understanding choice of how to use them? Yes, I really think we do. And I love that head teacher.

They get a big of, I'm sorry, but that's not the case in all the schools. So, yes, we really need to normalise it. And the boy in the film, in the clip, he had a sister. He said, for my sister, I have three boys that are in a house with no girls except me. So having sisters definitely came across as something that was really beneficial. But that's not going to be the case. We've got to make this uniform. So we've got to also, how we do this in the UK is that in most schools, it's the form tutor who gives the PSHE lessons.

And the form tutor could be a 55-year-old male Spanish teacher or the geography teacher. And the students have told us that that is very uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable for the teacher and it's uncomfortable for the students. And they know that the teacher's not really feeling it to give these lessons. So what I would like to propose, I love people like Tina going in, but I think within all schools, we need some champions that can teach these reproductive health issues. They're not rocket science and all the women there will be experiencing them. So if we can have people there who say these words to the children,

to the children who say tampon and period and leakage and endometriosis and heavy period and pain and so that when a girl has an issue, she has someone to go to because it's not just about education, it's also about support. And in all the schools I spoke to, they all have free period products. But some of them are, for example, in the administration's office. So they have to sort of, if they've come on their period, they'd have to stuff some toilet roll in their knickers, to the admin's office in front of everybody asks for a period product, then go back and they'll get told off for some schools don't let them leave lessons, even if they're leaking. That's another big problem.

Toilets in schools are really, can be really not nice places. So we've got a lot to do, but we are on it and I'm really glad for the Department for Education of what they've done so far. And we, I'm working with wellbeing of women and we are designed, we've designed some lesson plans for teachers to deal with teaching about difficult periods. And we would like boys to be in that room at the same time as well. Well, the Department of Education have confirmed, of course, that they've brought a new curriculum to take effect next year.

They say with clear guidance that people should be taught about both physical and emotional changes, as well as topics from endometriosis to heavy menstrual bleeding. As part of our plan for change, we're providing teachers with new resources to help them run great lessons on these issues and tackle stigma head on. But the National Association of Head Teachers have told us that, you know, periods needs to be more than a single lesson. But the curriculum, both primary and secondary schools, is overcrowded. You know, they say new guidance has added a lot of new content without any additional time being created.

Joyce, they have a point, don't they? How do they fit it all in? Absolutely. And we totally understand that. But this is something that every woman or probably every single woman, every single girl in their school is going to experience. For me, it's non-negotiable. This has got to be at the top of the agenda. It should always have been at the top of the agenda.

So we all know in schools we're learning things that we will never use again in the big wide world. Understanding your menstruation, we will all use on a monthly calendar. So we have got to make this a priority, for sure, non-negotiable. Okay, Professor Joyce Harper and Tina Leslie, thank you so much for joining us. We've had quite a few comments on this, actually.

One here from Elizabeth in Cornwall says, I'm a year 6 teacher and always teach about periods to a mix class. Boys have mothers and sisters and will have partners. I generally find the boys are really interested. That's Elizabeth in Cornwall. Then Monica in Salisbury said, I insisted on my son joining my daughter when I started the chat about periods.

That's some 40 years ago. And one here from Tony, I totally agree that boys and girls should be taught together to counteract ignorance and misogyny around periods I've been a primary teacher since the 90s and always teach sex and relationships education as a whole class and we start very early with reception age-appropriate information of course she says the biggest problem is never the children but persuading the parents and carers that it's okay very interesting thank you so much for your comments that's it from today tomorrow at newler we'll be back in the hot seat

now have you heard of the new toy craze la boo-boo dolls for the uninitiated we'll be explaining what they are and discussing why they've led to women, going to places, extreme places to buy them. Do join us for that. But for now, thanks for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Hannah Frye. And I'm Darrow O'Brien. And we are back for another series of curious cases. Where we investigate the scientific mysteries sent in by you. Are crows capable of complex emotions?

What happens to our brains when we fall in love? And I was wondering, why do we lie? I think that one might be aimed at you, Dara. How would you know? That's what a lie I would say. We tackle the mysteries of the universe through audacious experiments and expert insight. Curious cases on Radio 4.

And available now on BBC Sounds.