Woman's Hour - 25/09/2025

Episode Date: September 25, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Professor Edith Hurd, the new director of the Francis Crick Institute, a biomedical research centre in London, will be telling us all about her job, including looking at the status of women's biological science morning, Edith. Welcome. A new documentary is shining a light on book banning in parts of America in school libraries.

From July 2021 to March 22, alone, there were 1,586 book bans in 86 school districts across 26 states, affecting more than 2 million students. We'll hear more from the director, Kim Snyder and from Amanda Jones, one of the librarians standing up against the ban, also here this morning. Welcome and a yinker Braithwaite, the author of My Sister, The Serial Killer, is here to tell us about her new book, Cursed Daughters, about a family of women who believe, they're cursed. It covers big themes, superstition, mental health, intergenerational trauma. A Yinka, welcome. Thank you. And this morning we're going to take your book as a theme for everyone listening, really, because as you know, normally we like you to get in touch with us about anything you hear on the program, but particularly superstitions. Even if you know, there's absolutely nothing in it, do they still have a place in your life? Do you salute a magpie? Not walk under a ladder.

Never walk on cracks on the pavement. And many of these are cultural superstitions. I want to hear about yours. Many cultures have methods to ward off the evil eye. Do you keep something in your handbag? Put a black dot behind your ear. Whatever your little ritual may be, share it with me this morning and tell me why on earth you do it. Get in touch in the usual way.

84844 is the number to text. You can email the program or you can contact me on WhatsApp, 0300-100-444. And as I've got you all around the table, I'm going to start by asking you. Edith, as a woman of science, do you have a ritual or a superstition? Well, as a scientist, it's quite difficult to really believe in superstition. But I do have a, I had a Greek mother and the evil eye is still very much a thing in Greece.

So cloves of garlic stuffed into my handbag without noticing. It's so interesting. I was, I think the odd thing is most things I don't do, but I found that if I'm walking by myself and I see a ladder, like they're working, I'll go under it. that's fine. But if I'm with my daughter and I'm pushing her in a push chair, all of a sudden I'm hesitant. And very quickly, Amanda, how about you? Well, I'm from near New Orleans, Louisiana. So voodoo is a big culture, cultural thing. We've got such a range around the table. And we've got to ask you, Kim, as you're here as well. Yes. I seem to invent my own. So I think one of mine is if I, if money comes into my life, I have to spend it on others. Oh, wonderful. Okay, such a

Can you share yours with me this morning 84844 and tell me why? We'll be bringing those throughout the programme and talking to all our guests as well. But first, more than 100 Labour MPs are calling this morning for the government to put up gambling taxes to pay for scrapping the two child cap on universal credit. The Times newspaper is also reporting that the child poverty task force set up by the government will tell the Prime Minister that lifting the cap is the most effective way to a level. alleviate child poverty. Doing this would cost an estimated $3 billion a year. Chancellor Rachel Reeves already has a 20 to 30 billion pound deficit to try and balance in the November budget. So should she do it? Labor MP Dame Meg Hillier spoke to my colleagues on the Today program earlier this morning. Well, I think, you know, as the Chancellor herself says, it's about choices.

And I think, you know, we are very clear. We're a Labor government. The last Labor government lifted different measures of this, but around 1.4 million children out of poverty. And it's unconscionable to me and many colleagues and people I know in, you know, up and down the country, particularly in my constituency, to think that we're not going to be investing in our children. And there are credible alternatives being floated. I mean, there's talk about what Gordon Brown is doing on the gambling tax and he's no slouch on looking at these figures. He knows what he's doing. So I think that this is the decisions that obviously face the Chancellor. She's got an unenviable task.

But if we can't invest in our young people, then what are we here for? And if you look at the crisis across Europe with the birth rate, I mean, the birth rate, across England and Wales is 1.41, and that's the lowest on record for the third year in a row. So whatever the moral and ethical reasons about the children who are sharing shoes and clothes to go to school and taking alternate visits to watching, to playing football, because they've only got one pair of boots to share, that sort of thing. Actually, there's also hard facts and figures. Joining me now is Ian Watson, BBC political correspondent. Ian, is pressure now mounting on the government to do this?

Yeah, I think the pressure has always been there actually since they were elected, because this is only which the vast majority of Labour MPs would want to see. But I think the reason the pressure is on now is, well, twofold really. First of all, we've got the Labour Conference starting this week. And everyone assumes that the work of the Child Poverty Task Force, which was set up after the election, has actually completed its work. It hasn't been published yet, but it's been completed. And people will want to see this particular recommendation to be implemented.

But the other reason, I think, is also Labour MPs have seen what their own power can achieve. So when they were deciding that they thought the government's welfare reforms went too far, were cutting people with benefits of people with disabilities too harshly, there was effectively a rebellion staged in the spring. And the government has rethought that. And Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor, has to come up with some cash somewhere else. On this one as well, I think, as we heard, what is focused in minds of Labour MPs is that there does seem to be a very easy option

which Gordon Brown, the former Labour leader, former Prime Minister has been advocating for some time which is tax the online gambling companies and you can do something which is a distinctly and they would argue popular labour policy. And what have other senior figures been saying? Well at this stage many senior figures have not really been committing themselves to this. So, for example, Pat McFadden, the working pension secretary, the new working pension secretary, co-chairs this child poverty task force. And he says certainly this is an option, but he hasn't committed himself to it and has been suggesting the government would have to find the money for it. There may be other calls on gambling taxes, for example.

But interestingly, there's also a Deputy Labor leadership contest going on at the same time. Bridget Philipson, the Education Secretary, has won the candidates for that. She also co-chairs the Child Poverty Task Force. and though she hasn't quite committed to scrapping the two-child limit, she has described it as spiteful and says that that option is very much on the table. And her opponent, Lucy Powell, until recently in the Labour Cabinet, has said the government should be working towards doing this. So she's not asking for it to be done immediately or overnight,

but it's something that she says that government ought to commit to. So again, that adds to the overall pressure, given that contest, on the Labour leadership to do so. And Andy Burnham, seen as a potential challenger to Kirsten, I'm a leader of the Labour Party. He's been talking about this as well, hasn't he? He has, yes, and unsurprisingly, he backs the lifting the two-child cap, because he knows this is very, very popular, not just with rank and file labour members, but also popular with many of the big trade unions like Unison,

the kind of people you would depend upon, where you ever to mount a Labour leadership challenge. I mean, he has obviously got ideas that go way beyond this, but certainly he thinks the kind of policies that he's advocating are the ones that appeal more to the, not just to the Labour membership, but to potential Labour voters that these would be useful ways of arming labour against the threat of reform. What have other parties said about it?

Well, there is a clear dividing line in British politics, and I think this is where there is a potential danger, actually, for Labour, because Kemi Bedinok, the Conservative leader, is very clear that she thinks that the two child cap should stay. It was introduced by a Conservative government in 2015. And their argument was that why should people effectively on benefits have the right to have the families they want, the number of children that they want,

and many people in work would be struggling to be able to support, for example, a third child. So they effectively posited this as an argument of fairness. But I think also why the Labour leadership has been a little bit wary of committing themselves to this is that on certain things that they did, they were just clearly unpopular and they've done a union. return, for example, the winter fuel payments. But if you look at the polling on two child benefits,

then it is much more, shall we say, ambiguous. There are people who are against it, but there are also people who be potential Labour voters who understand that argument about going out to work, not drying on benefits, but finding it a struggle to get by. So I think this is something which is going to be politically contested if Labour does it. I think the problem where Kirstammer decided not to do this

is not just this groundswell of opinion inside his own party, but all the evidence says that while there's no silver bullet to eliminate child poverty, this is probably the single most effective weapon in that armoury. And what's the political cost of doing it versus not doing it? Well, I think the political cost of doing it would be this dividing line with the opposition. It is going to be contested. There's going to be no consensus on it. There's also obviously the financial cost of £3 billion.

pounds, so it's fine to say, take this from the gambling companies, but if the Chancellor's got something like, as people are predicting, $20 billion to find if she's going to stick to her own fiscal rules, if she's going to effectively make sure that she's got in the future borrowing and debt on a downward spiral, then she's going to have to look at tax rises and there will be other calls for that cash. So there's a kind of opportunity cost, if you like, if the government decides to go down this route and they've already been saying that they've taken measures to tackle child poverty through free breakfast clubs, for example,

in schools. And there are other measures that can take that would be less costly. I think the political cost to Keir Stammer, though, if he decides not to do this, is that he'll boost the potential leadership ambitions of Andy Burnham. He'll probably boost the

deputy leadership hopes. Sorry, the deputy leadership hopes of Lucy Powell, who's not standing as leadership candidate, and he will annoy quite a lot of his own MPs. And as we saw, with the welfare reforms, if they're angry about something, they're now finding their voice and they're willing to oppose their own leadership. Okay. Ian Watson there, BBC political correspondent, thank you very much.

Let me turn to the Director of Policy Rights and Advocacy at Child Poverty Action Group, Sarah Ogilvy. So, Sarah, welcome to Woman Zah. Why do you think the cap should be lifted? I mean, for us, this is really about the children and families that are affected, and lifting that policy would make an incredible difference to someone. the country's poorest children and families. It would lift 350,000 kids out of poverty, as you've heard. It would lift 700,000 more kids out of that really deep poverty.

And what that means is kids going to school, not being hungry. It means as we get into winter, parents being able to turn the heating on. It's about maybe if we get close to Christmas, kids being able to go to school Christmas party, all things that many kids can't do right now. And it's quite interesting just listening to what Ian was saying there about some of the dividing lines. actually the majority of kids who are affected by the two-child limit already live in a family where at least one parent is working. They're normally a family where there are three siblings.

So this is actually like a huge number of like really normal families that are affected by the policy at the moment and government has the opportunity to make that crucial difference to their lives. So for me it's a bit of a no-brainer. You've heard lots of the other political arguments as well. It's very cost-effective or cost-efficient. Because it's continuing to pull children into poverty, 100 more children every day are affected by it.

Actually, government is going to really struggle to reduce those figures unless it scraps as policy. So frankly, I don't think the government has got many other places that can turn to make this kind of difference. But how can they afford to lift this limit, given that it's going to cost an estimated $3 billion pounds, and we already have a huge deficit in the economy? Certainly don't underestimate the difficult decisions

the Chancellor is going to have to make. But we know that children grown up in poverty have worse educational outcomes. they have worse physical and mental health as a child and as an adult. That has consequences for public services. It has consequences for our tax. You know, we know already that the cost of child poverty to public services is probably 40 billion pounds a year.

And so in the short term, yeah, the Chancellor is probably going to have to find the money. But in the long term, if we don't address child poverty in this country, the costs to everybody as well as to the children involved are significant. Do you worry that if it is lifted, other services for children and families could suffer? I mean, the government has announced that it's going to have a child poverty strategy. So to us that implies you have more than one thing in it. We've already had that brilliant announcement about the expansion of free school meals. We would really like to see a strategy include a whole range of measures

that's going to support children in this country to achieve their fullest potential in life. The reason that we're fighting really hard for the two-child limit is the first step, and for the benefit cap, in fact, is one of the first steps that has to be taken, is just because it is so effective a measure at lifting kids out of poverty and because it's one that really discriminates against children who've got a couple of brothers or sisters so it's not that this is the only thing we want government to do

but it's just that this is the most powerful thing they can do as a first step and we would really like to see more of them in due course. Dame Meg Hillier mentioned there that this idea that's been put forward by former Prime Minister Gordon Brown to raise taxes on betting shops to fund scrapping the cap.

do you care where the money comes from? I mean, personally, that is slightly beyond my pay grade to say where the money would come from. For us, it's just the political and the personal imperative for government to make this difference is so, so strong that I think government does have to find the money. I just like I can't see any other way for government to get through this. And what's really critical as well for me

is that we've heard this morning talk about whether government is going to commit to the principle, but wait and see if it can find the money at another point. Quite frankly, that will mean very, very little to the children and families who are struggling right now, who are looking ahead to a cold, difficult, expensive winter, not knowing how they and their kids are going to get through. So if government is going to take this step, and if it wants to make that incredible difference to children's lives, you know, I would really, really encourage the Chancellor to go for it now and make that difference while she can. Sarah Ogilvie from Child Poverty Action Group, thank you very much for speaking me to me this morning.

84844, the text number. Next, Professor Edith Hurd, the new director of the Francis Crick Institute, the UK's flagship Biomedical Centre. She's taking over at a time when debates over science seem to get hotter by the day. Resources are under strain to, not just money in the midst of high inflation, but also the pressure to keep the best scientists working here in the UK. Edith, welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. For people who don't know the Crick, it opened next to the British Library in London, 2016.

It has an annual budget of about £200 million. What's it for? What happens? It really is a flagship, and I think it was very visionary of the people who set it up in the UK to do so because it brings together discovery science. You know, the CRICC wants to understand how life works with a mission to ultimately translate that

to human health benefits, human benefits in general and knowledge, acceleration. And what's unique about it is that within a single building. It brings together discovery research scientists, clinicians, people with industrial know-how. So it means that you can go all the way from basic research, curiosity-driven research, right through to application, be it bed-to-bedside or be it translation into industrial spin-offs, et cetera. So it really, I think it is unique in the world because it's also designed to allow this to happen. It's a beautiful building. I don't know if you

in it, just next to the British Library. So if you walk into it, you realize that all of the almost 2,000 people can interact, see each other and make use of top scientific equipment and facilities, you know, world class science all under one roof. And I think in terms of attractivity, the UK knew that they wanted to attract the top science to the UK. And I would say it's worked and it still is working very well, despite what's going on in the world. How are you able to do that? By making sure that we stick to our mission and that we try and empower and promote the best science, the top science in the best conditions, and we do it in a very collaborative and interactive way. We are not siloed.

We really want to break down some of the traditional barriers that have prevented top science from happening. That means, you know, the clinicians, and the bench researchers are there together. We're actually linked our funders and our three founding universities work very closely with us, University College, Imperial College and King's College. So we remain that academic and applied attractivity

that is so important in current. So very attractive to scientists around the world to want to be part of it. You joined on the 1st of September but from the European Molecular Biology Laboratory, where you were Director General. So you've got a lot of leadership experience. But I'd like to get to know you as a scientist.

You're an epigeneticist. What does that mean? Gosh, epigenetics, many definitions. But basically, if we understand that life is encoded by our genome, our DNA, from a single cell to, you know, beautifully complex organisms like ourselves, how does that happen? And so how, as cells divide, do they end up creating, you know, complex organs and living forms? Well, we think that epigenetic mechanisms are very important. So it's, if you like, beyond the DNA. And so even if every cell in our body has the same genome, the same DNA, it's used in

different ways. And the way that can happen is thanks to some epigenetic processes that will allow cells to memorize a decision they've made, for example, to become, you know, a retinal cell or a nerve cell or a muscle cell. So epigenetic processes are really about how you play out the, you know, the template of life and how you make sure that things actually happen in a robust and memorable way. You mentioned at the beginning having a Greek mother growing up in a Greek household. And I read that growing up in that household, you recognize that freedom matters and science. can facilitate freedom. What do you mean by that?

Well, science is amazing because it's a global endeavour. And when scientists collaborate, even better things come out. In other words, it does actually transcend national frontiers. We all speak the same language in the sense that it's an endeavor

to get the quest for truth and the scientific endeavor, the processes we use are, I would say, propagated around the world. So when I chose to be a scientist, it's true. I realized that this was a freedom that, you know, not all jobs would give us. And why did it come from my childhood?

Well, I suppose I was brought up in the 60s, 70s in London. And with a Greek mother, most of her family had to actually exit Greece during the time of the colonels and the dictatorship. So I was raised in a house full of exiles who talked about repression and the importance of freedom every day. So I guess I was primed to be thinking about, you know, what it means to be able to have freedom of expression, freedom of creativity, and to get on with, you know, some of the noble endeavours of life without being persecuted or undermined. But you actually started out studying astronomy. So what led you to make the switch into biology? Well, actually, the English school system sort of made that choice for me. I chose to. do physics. And I think what I've realized is that I do love to look at and explore the world around me. And, you know, I started out thinking I was going to become an astronomer and looking

at the stars and understanding galaxies. But I was lucky enough to go to university in Cambridge where I could actually make choices. And I started biology very early during the three years I was there. And I just fell in love with it. And I fell in love with the, you know, I would say the accelerated science that was happening in biology, it's actually going through a golden era where every day, practically, there are new discoveries. And what we discover actually matters. Understanding life is really cool.

Very cool. You've done a lot of research into the X chromosome. Men have one, women have two. Exploring how the sexes differ when it comes to genes and hormones. How would you sum up the status women's biological science as right now? It's interesting because I've spent my whole career, practically working on the sex chromosomes, on the on the X chromosome in particular. And because of that, I, you know, I've tried to understand what is it that makes a female a female and a male and male.

But I realized also because I have to give public lectures in France during the earlier part of my career, I looked into female biology and the studies of female biology. And actually, we are the most neglected half of the population. For centuries, women's health was actually totally unstudied, not just understudied, unstudied. We were labelled with all sorts of mystical and superstitious things, coming back to the theme of superstition. And it's only in the last century, really, that people have started to explore female biology. The descriptions of female biology only date from about 100 years ago, whereas all biology is not based just on men. men. And when it comes to women's health, it's extraordinary. But up until very recently,

many of the drugs that were being developed, medications taken, were not tested on women. So in fact, many of the drugs that we would take would be prescribed to us as if we were mini-men, just based on our weight, our smaller weight. And it's very interesting because I think in the late 1990s, it turns out that eight out of ten of the drugs that were pulled off the market in the United States were pulled off because they actually had side effects in women. So that's changing now. He's shocking figures. It is shocking.

And it's not even that long ago, 1990s. Exactly. It's changing, but what's the Crick doing to correct it? Well, for a start, at the Crick, there are a number of scientists working on human biology, of course, but female biology in particular, several brilliant young group leaders who are actually trying to understand what is the impact of hormones or of genes on female biology.

And also, how does this then impact human health? So, for example, there are several cancers that are very female-specific or very male-specific. And now, at last, we actually have the tools to understand that. What's going on at the genetic level, at the molecular level, and also at the hormonal level, and what are the sorts of therapies

we can actually bring together? and for me, you know, personalised medicine or precision medicine is really something that we can aspire to but to do that you have to make sure you can treat women as well. Precision medicine can't just be for men. And I know that most of our listeners are already acknowledging just how brilliant you are Edith, but I just want to add that in your last job

you were involved in some very important research, Nobel Prize winning in fact, powered by artificial intelligence. So tell me a bit about alpha fold and some of the other opportunities AI is going to offer. Right. So it wasn't my research, I was the Director General of the EMBL, and we teamed up with DeepMind, Google DeepMind, who produced this amazing tool, AI tool called AlphaFold.

So basically, our cells are built of proteins. Proteins are these little machines that, you know, allow us to be who we are, to allow cells to divide, allow us to have metabolism. But understanding how proteins fold was one of the big challenges. and you need to understand how these building blocks fold if you want to design drugs or if you want to think about how things go wrong in disease. And so Deep Mind actually came up with an AI approach

to predict from sequence, from the little bits, the amino acids that build up a protein, from the sequence to predict the way the protein folds. And what used to take years of studies to crack the structure of protein, we can now do in the space of minutes or hours using AI. And for me, I feel very lucky because it's a true scientific revolution. And Alpha Fold was brought to the table by Deep Mind. And it was at EMBL, because this was an intergovernmental

organization, it was EMBL who actually made it open to all the world. So it's a way of democratizing science as well. So some of the scientists and places who didn't have access to all these facilities that would have been needed now can actually perform top-class research thanks to this AI tool. Incredible. Incredible. You've mentioned there sort of democratising what's available to people around the world and you said there's a sort of global quest for truth when it comes to what you do. But the science community in the USA is currently in a state of confusion, not least because of this week's announcement from President Trump linking autism to paracetamol. Medical experts have strongly pushed back on the claims. What's your view and what's

happening in the US? Well, I think there has been for a while a war on science, I would call it. Scientific truth and fact is being challenged. I think it is up to all of us, scientists and leaders included, to fight back and to speak up. What's happening right now in the States is not just putting out, I would say, fake news and it not being challenged adequately. It's also the progressive undermining of the whole scientific endeavour. And so what's happened in just a few months, I think, is

having an impact on the whole world and all the progress that was made, for example, in the context of the pandemic, you know, MRI vaccines, all of the progress that was being made in understanding how biodiversity is collapsing and what the impact of

climate change is. All of that is, I think, now being challenged and threatened. And And I never thought I would see this in my lifetime, but we're seeing it. And I think it's up to all of us to make sure that we don't let this happen. So I think from the UK perspective, from the European perspective, we are trying to open our doors both to the scientists, also to the data. Because destroying the actual facts, the data is also what can happen. And we have to be very, very, I would say, savvy and swift in making sure that we protect science. Otherwise, we're going to fall back by. decades in the space of just a few months or years. So does this also in a way represent an opportunity for you and getting some of the best minds here? Absolutely.

I mean, I think it's a bit of a tragic opportunity because as far as I'm concerned, the US is one of the scientific epicenters of the world and it has been supported and sustained by government funding over many, many administrations. So to see this happening and the long-term consequences this is going to have is tragic. But of course, scientists can move around. And it is an opportunity for us, for the UK and for Europe. And it's not just an opportunity. I'd say it's a duty.

We need to help people get on with their science in the best conditions. And hopefully the US will move back into safer waters and scientific endeavor. What advice would you give to women stepping into leadership roles in science today? Ha. That's an interesting one. I had some set answers up until a few years ago, but having now done one top leadership role, I realize that just like democracy, it can be fragile.

It's a fight to make sure that you maintain the right principles and that you empower others around you. And empowering, I don't just mean other women, but I mean educating and empowering other men around you to make sure that there's a realization that, of course, women can have leadership. roles. But we come from, just as with female medicine, we come from centuries of tradition of male structured and supported scientific research. So it's not just about, you know, being a role

model. It's about trying to help the whole process, you know, both cultural and structural. The stereotypes have to be overthrown. And that has to happen, I would say, not just, you know, in a provocative or very sort of public way, we have to do it by stealth. We actually have to make sure we work together and we don't give up. So I always tell women, just put your gender glasses on because if the minute you take them off, things start to slip back. Don't we've got them on permanently here at Woman's Hour. That's why I thought I could tell you. Yes, absolutely.

Thank you, Professor Edith Hurd. How fascinating. Stay here. Everyone around this fantastic table in front of me has been nodding away. I'm going to come to my next guest now. Aynka Braithwaite's debut novel, My Sister, the Serial Killer, was a blackly comic story of two sisters in Nigeria.

One keeps committing murders, whilst the other clears up the mess. The book was nominated for the women's and Book of Prizes in 2019. Well, she's back with another novel on similarly dark themes, but explored in a different way. Cursed Daughters is about a legacy of heartache

and broken relationships that comes to define one. family in Nigeria. None of the daughters of the family can successfully hold down a relationship and they all live together under one roof in the family home in Lagos, bubbling over with eccentric aunties, harassed kids, plus a hefty dose of witchcraft. Welcome, Aynka. Thank you for having me. It's absolutely our pleasure. Big themes, superstition, mental health, intergenerational trauma. What was the idea that you first began with? Actually, I want to say that fullest though it's reed for Twitter to be in the company of the woman

that I hear. And speaking of themes, Professor Edith said something that blew my mind, which was that, you know, you had said it that she was, she had been working at epigenetics. Yes. And there's actually a little, Edith, there's a little bit about epigenetics in the novel. I'm sure you'll judge me harshly and feel free to do so because I did what research I could. This is not my area. But it's, the book is kind of this competing idea of, you know, our curse is really. and, you know, is it just inherited trauma and, you know, how much of their body has recorded the things that have gone from.

But, you know, I'd love to pick your mind later. But, yeah, in terms of what triggered the idea, I suppose it was a story told to me, a true story told to me decades ago about these childhood loves. and the mother of the guy put her foot down about the union even though they were family friends

and the families knew each other nobody could really understand why I don't think the mother ever said why and that just triggered my interest and then at some point I became I also interested in this concept of if you there's a character who's thought to be a reincarnation

of another character and if you live your whole life believing that you're with everybody around you believing that you're someone else and that you're destined to go a certain route what's that like what kind of pressure is that so that's sort of what triggered my interest in the story initially well let's talk about the curse because a curse was placed on the women of the family generations before the story you're telling about a scorned first wife after discovering her husband has secretly taken a beautiful young second wife and the furious first wife has a fight with her rival and she utters the curse.

Tell us a bit more and then please could you read a little bit for us? Yes, so in terms of a bit more about it, all the, their, I guess their ancestor generations before was cursed as you said and all the women since have been dealing with the consequences of this curse and it's been and trying to survive. in and trying to defy it, but I'll read, I'll read it for you now. It will not be well with you. No man will call your house home. And if they try, they will not have peace.

Your daughters are cursed. They will pursue men, but the men will be like water in their palms. Your granddaughters will love you in vain. Your great granddaughters will labor for acknowledgement, but they will fall short of other women. Your daughters, your daughter's daughter's daughter. and all the woman to come will suffer for man's sake. Then she swiped the blood from one of her many wounds and smeared it on the ground. And the curse seems so real and so begins the legacy of heartbreak.

Is the curse a metaphor for the challenges women face? I think in some ways it is a much... When I was writing it, I wrote in on lots of different levels. One, it's a curse. The curse is real. Two, it's not real. and it's a metaphor for generational trauma, you know, because the woman, they've experienced heartbreak, they've experienced being left by husbands, they've experienced losing fathers, and so now they believe in it,

they subscribe to it. It also became a metaphor for self-fulfilling prophecies. If you think something's going to happen, you set it up to happen, and then it does happen, and it's, you know, like, well, it was going, to happen all along and maybe you don't take the necessary you don't have to take you don't have to acknowledge the things that you did wrong and maybe the mistakes you made but also it's a very um the society as well that these women are functioning in is a male centric society and having a you know a spouse being married to a man it's stability you know so they're also just trying to survive. And that idea that you just mentioned then,

that if we believe our fate isn't in our own hands, we can't be blamed for things going wrong. Is that an idea you wanted to make your characters confront? I mean, they're not all able to confront it, but that's life. But I did want one or two of them to try to attack it and try to defy it. And they do try whether or not they succeed.

You'll have to read to find out. Yes. And you don't shy away from women's mental health as a theme. One of your more tragic characters, Manifé, her depression is the kind of thing that's often kept hidden. Why did you want to bring that into the open? I think, to be honest, that happened quite organically. I don't think I went into it thinking I want to bring mental health into focus. But I think generally with my sister, Syracilla and with this book,

there is this idea of trauma what trauma does to you and trauma like you said that's not addressed and trauma that's kept hidden and conversations that should be had but aren't you know communicated and also I'm a little bit obsessed with families and and the kind of things that you inherit just by being born into this family all of a sudden you might um I was saying to someone once actually that my mom feels like her arms are really big and my aunt's feels like her arms are really big. And somehow they've passed that on to me. So you'd rarely find me wearing a sleeveless top,

but you don't think about it on a daily how often you're just absorbing all these things into your consciousness. So, yeah, I think just flawed women fascinate me. I feel like you're breaking it a little bit by wearing this beautiful lace top. It's all the halfway house. Yeah, the arms are out, but covers.

I do try. I've told myself I'm going to be a little bit bolder. You know, even if I do feel as if my arms are humongous, I'm going to try everyone. on no while to wear something sleeveless. Which they're not. In my family it was the nose and I have overcome it. And interestingly, it's when my self-esteem is at its lowest,

that that's the first thing you noticed. Can I share a quick story about a curse with you? Because it came up in that, and I just feel like I want to share it. Within my own family, there was a story of a curse. Oh, okay. That no women and children survived on my maternal father's side. He was an only son. And anyone who watched Mahoud you think who are will know the story.

Anyway, because he was, after partition, he was left totally alone. I'm trying to tell it very quickly, because I'm aware of time. And I then did a bit of digging into my own history, and I learned about how a million Indian soldiers fought in the First World War, and a lot of them from Punjab. After the First World War, they went back to Punjab, rural Punjab, with Spanish flu. And we know that it's women and young children that don't survive. So there was a really simple explanation for what became my family curse.

Sorry, there you go. A little deflection into my own story. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for allowing me to share that. I thought it just really struck a chord with me when I was reading your book. Can we talk about religion and cultural practices and how they sit side by side? Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I did want to explore going into it was that duality. Because in Nigeria, you know, it's a religious community.

and you have Christians and Muslims, for the most part, living side to side quite peacefully, you know, and because of these religions, Juju, which is, I guess, I'll equate it to dark magic. That's the closest thing, is now sort of looked down on. I think maybe our ancestors have dabbled in traditional religions, but it has a lot of negative connotations today. And so basically, long story short, a Christian wouldn't, shouldn't engage in Juju's sort of thing. But now and then you hear stories of people taking certain measures. And I think if, you know, maybe they're praying to God and something isn't working out,

then they'll, you know, they'll do the next best thing. So it's that duality and it's, you know, even the people who do do it, do it secretly. But it's like how do you justify that? How, you know, how do you explain the things that you're doing? Because obviously, you can be quite dark. It can involve, I guess, in those sort of old mythical sense. It might involve sacrifice of something or, you know, it can't get quite. So I wanted to play with that.

How do you justify it to yourself? What leads you to do it and play around with that a bit? So many themes of this. And you've mentioned it a few times. Much of the story is about the weight of the past and how we escape it. So is there a message about breaking cycles of trauma? Generally, I think when I'm writing, I try to avoid giving messages, quote-unquote, and letting people sort of arrive at their own conclusions. But if someone read the book and felt inspired to determine their own future, that would please me greatly.

And I'm, I totally want to be involved in the conversation that you have with Edith about the crossover here. This will be fascinating. Maybe we can turn it into a program. Amidst all this talk of curses and the weight of history, how important was it to make the romance in the novel, even the failed ones? Thank you for asking. Yeah, no, it was the romance. It's so far people don't reference it so much and that makes me sad because I worked very hard on it. I'm not accustomed to writing romance much usually when I try somebody ends up getting stabbed.

So doing it and having Trying to represent something that was wholesome and beautiful And something that the reader would want to For took more out of me than the curses And a lot of the other things that went on So I kind of hope that people enjoy that aspect Yeah, why did you want to write about romance? I mean, for one, it worked with the story

Because it's about women laboring for love and failing But, you know, as a writer, I try to, to do things that are challenging to me and also just the I'm in a wholesome loving relationship and I think we don't see that enough especially for black women I think in literature

so just to even though again there's not so great things that happen but I do kind of wanted to I wanted to represent that yeah well that's okay there's all of it all of it happens Ayenka Braithwaite thank you so much for now and cursed daughters is released today.

Now, I want to tell you about a brand new series of conversations we are launching The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, which will be available from this Sunday, the 28th of September, only on BBC Sounds. The Woman's Hour Guide to Life brings you the perfect toolkit for tackling life's challenges and opportunities. Series 1 will focus on the juggle. Across six episodes, you'll hear expert insights and honest conversations on some of the issues you're dealing with day-to-day from the way busy lives can squeeze out. time, important time with friends, and what we can do about it, to how to pursue ambition without burning out and how to turn getting older to your advantage. I will be tuning in. So whether you're fixing a problem at one of life's crossroads are just looking to shake things up a bit, this is the only guide you'll need to help you survive and thrive. It's your companion,

your life coach. It's your Woman's Hour Guide to Life. So don't forget to listen from this Sunday. You can find it where you find the Woman's Hour podcast feed only on BBC Sounds. Now, The Librarians is a new documentary by Kim Snyder following school librarians like Amanda Jones, who are standing up against a nationwide movement in America, which is banning books from schools and libraries. Between July 2021 and March 22 alone, there were 1,586 book bans in 86 school districts across 26 states, affecting more than 2 million students. I pause just to let the figures sink in a bit. Stories featuring LGBTQ plus characters as well as books dealing with race, sexual assaults and grief were major targets. Texas led the charge with 713 bans, nearly double any other states.

But book banning also occurred across the US in Florida and Louisiana too. Books were banned by authors such as Tony Morrison and Judy Bloom. But some librarians resisted and defending democracy, freedom of expression and the right of young people. to read widely. Well, filmmaker Kim Schneider has made a documentary covering this. It's called The Librarians. Let's hear a clip. Being, you know, your vast experience over the years in your role, so you see a distinction between book banning and restricting access to pornography for minors. In my professional role, there is no pornography for Myers in a school library, so there is no need to restrict it. But restrictions are, however, a form of censorship. Your personal opinion

about obscenity does not make it so. Thank you for sharing. I believe a penis isn't appropriate for fifth grade, but thank you. We can talk offline. Thank you. Had I been permitted to speak further, I would have reminded her that fifth graders have penises. I'm joined by Amanda Jones, a librarian from Louisiana who resisted the banning of books from her public library and Kim. Amanda and Kim, welcome to Woman's Hour.

What made you want to make the film? Well, first, I'm so happy you play that clip. It's one of my favorite. There aren't so many laughs, but that's a good one. It stood out for me. Yes, yes, thank you. You know, it really did kick off in the fall of 21 when I learned about these 850 books that were issued on a list by a state senator, Matt Krause, to be removed from school libraries. And I learned about these librarians that were standing up on unlikely defenders on the front lines. to preserve our First Amendment and constitutional rights. And it just, it was instinctual. I felt that I had to pursue that. And then it evolved into a much more broader national story. But it really was to start thinking about the role of librarians age, you know, back in time

and what they represent and what this represented, there had been a bit of, you know, a fair amount of coverage on book bans. But I was really interested in the siege on librarians, many of whom happened to be women, and what that meant. Explain the word siege. I've seen the documentary. Most of our listeners won't have yet. So when you say siege, what do you mean?

I was shocked to start to learn, to just take in that there was actual threat of criminalization of librarians simply for doing what they're trained to do. to fight censorship, to, I was utterly shocked. And in speaking of trauma, to really take in the amount of trauma that this wide swath of people were experiencing. And these original freedom fighters, they were calling themselves, quickly found just hundreds of people like Amanda that were all experiencing the same thing. Amanda, you've been a librarian. and a reading teacher for 25 years. Tell me, have you ever received instructions

to remove books from the shelves before? Well, I've had suggestions to remove them. In my school library, it's not necessarily an issue. It's more in our public libraries, which is very odd compared to all of the other states. In Louisiana, it's a siege on public libraries. But yes, I have had objections to books. Usually books around LGBTQ characters or authors,

race, as you said, sexual assault, things like that. And what was your reaction to that? Oh, no. How did it happen? How do you get an email? Well, I have had a parent concerned about books. And I want to preface this with saying that it is every parent's right to be concerned

and what their children are reading. And a big issue in the United States is parental rights right now. But while I do believe in parental rights, those parents have the right to dictate what their own children read, but not to dictate what everyone else reads. But usually if it's a parent at my school, it's been a one-on-one conversation. And a one-on-one conversation, we can talk and we can explain. But what we're seeing in the broader sense, not necessarily at my school, but at the public library that I've been defending, there's no one-on-one conversations. It's just pure attacks.

Who's asking you to remove the books? Well, usually the religious alt-right, I would say the MAGA movement, Christian nationalists. people that they don't like the ideas or the authors that the books represent. And so they're trying to other, historically marginalized communities. But yes, it's generally the same group of people. Was it hard to find librarians, Kim, to talk to you?

Once I found these original freedom fighters in Texas, it was very collaborative. This was almost four years ago. And they said up front, we think in a way were the canaries in the coal mine. And I feel that sitting here three and a half years later, they were certainly correct in hearing you speak, Edith, you know, so many parallels to this assault of freedom

of expression, freedom of science. So they were on board and we became, and now with the release of the film, a, we're in solidarity. What kind of books were you, I mean, we've mentioned the themes, but what kind of books were you being asked to remove? One in our community was a book called Queerfully and Wonderfully Made, a LGBTQ Guide for the Teen Youth, Christian Youth, and they objected to it because it had the word

Christian and LGBTQ in the same title. And they claimed that you could not be a Christian and be a member of the LGBTQ plus community. Books like Pride Puppie, a puppy and a parade, there's nothing sexual in it at all, but because it said Pride Puppie, immediately they wanted to remove it from the shelves. What's shocking, I guess, when you're watching the documentaries, the sort of criminalization of the librarian. So, Helen, I want to ask, Amanda, sorry, I want to ask you, were you ever afraid? Oh, absolutely. I first spoke out for my public librarian in 2022. and gave a speech. And four days later, they created memes about me saying that I was advocating

the teaching of anal sex to children to 11-year-olds and giving pornography and erotica to six-year-olds, which had nothing to do with anything that I said. But I've received death threats. I live in the same small community for 47 years, my entire life, and a very small town. And I can't even go grocery shopping. I cannot go out in my own community for people calling me a pedophile or a groomer for defending books in the library. What's that like? Well, it's a mix of emotions, definitely trauma. It's, you know, you cry.

I've cried so hard that my eyes swelled shut, which I didn't know that can happen, and my sinuses where I couldn't breathe. I, you know, death threats, I've spent, I had to take a medical leave of absence from work, panic attacks, hair loss, anemia from not eating. It was very stressful. And the thing that is so bizarre to me is that my story is not unique.

This is happening to thousands of librarians across the country. And it's not just librarians. It also parallels with what Professor Hurd was saying about science. It's an attack on science and history and learning and knowledge. Absolutely.

And I mean, you know, it's been going on for some time. I'll take one example. in my opinion, the greatest theory for science was that of Darwin, the theory of evolution. There are many states where you can't teach that at school. And it's unbelievable, I would say, in my part of the world, that this would be the case. And so, yes, why aren't people standing up for it? And they are, but being squashed at a huge cost to yourself.

Yes, anyone who speaks out is immediately vilified. You're vilified and you're, just for example, when I first spoke out in my community, 30 of us spoke at the same meeting. They zeroed it on me, harassed me to the point that everyone else in my community was then afraid to speak out. So for the first year, it was like myself and one or two other people standing up. And it took a year to get everyone else in the community to start speaking back up. It's fear. So what gave you the courage to keep speaking out? Well, I don't think it's courage.

I just think I'm stubborn. I think I'm stubborn. But also, I was raised by parents who, in the deep south in Louisiana, very religious. And we were raised very Republican in that we should always stand up for the First Amendment. No matter what, you stand up for the First Amendment, no matter what, you love thy neighbor as thyself. And you champion the underdog. And so I am just doing what my parents raised me to do, which ironically now, I'm being vilified for by the people in my town that raised me to be this way, they say

I've changed, but they are not practicing what they preached. I'm living up to the way I was raised in my community. Kim, what shocked you the most making this documentary? So many things that I don't even know where to start. I think meeting Amanda was one of those where she's in a one traffic light town and to absorb the fact that in that little town that she has lost 12 students to suicide. Oh, my God. That was shocking. to me. It still is every time I say it. And it certainly didn't shock me. It inspired me to see people like Amanda standing up, basically standing up to bullies and saying we're not, as Martha, who you played the clip of says, and I cannot abide by that. I just feel right now in this moment

it is so essential and necessary, especially in small towns to see people claim. their agency at a time where I feel so many of my peers are feeling at a loss to how to have any kind of power or agency over what's happening. Is the hope? Well, that is the hope for me, is that there are these people that you see in the film, like Amanda, who are not afraid, whereas so many of our corporate corporations and higher education are not, you know, they need to take their lead from the Amanda's of the world. I mean, you faced real risks for defending intellectual freedom, Amanda.

What would you say to other librarians who are afraid to speak up? Well, I would say that in America, the majority of librarians were a very white, straight, cisgender dominated field. And with that comes a sense of a privilege. And I feel that that is a heavy duty that I feel I must fulfill, use that privilege for purpose. And I actually have a tattoo on my wrist. P3, use your power and privilege for purpose because I feel it's very important

that people in power and privilege should speak out. Well, this has been a very powerful conversation. I want to thank all my guests. Really enjoyed it. Thank you so much, Edith, Einka, Amanda and Kim. And thanks to all of you for getting in touch. So many superstitions coming through, but we just run out of time

because the conversation was so fastening. I must say the librarians is in cinemas from the 26th of September. It's going to air as part of Storyville on Tuesday the 7th of October on BBC 4 and I play it and it really is a brilliant watch. I'm just going to read out one of your superstitions. Heather's sent me a picture on WhatsApp of a potato which is now over 60 years old

that her father kept in his pocket to avoid pain. Join me tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4, The Fort. Royal Marines and Army pilots speaking for the first time. We felt there were Taliban fighters coming through this complex called Jugram Ford.

It was the most intense firefight I've ever been involved in. The word gets around that Fordy is missing. The Apache pilot said to me, you just need four volunteers. We secure them to the Apache wings and we'll go back and get Lance Corporal Ford. Get me four Marines and I will take them in and we'll get that boy home. Listen to the Fort on BBC Sounds.