Woman's Hour - 27/07/2021

Episode Date: July 27, 2021

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Welcome to Woman's Hour on this Tuesday morning. Good morning. We have a whole variety of discussions to bring you today, so it's lovely to have your company. Coming up, four years ago, breast surgeon Ian Patterson was found guilty in a criminal trial of multiple counts of wounding patients with intent and is now serving a 20-year prison sentence. A recent update on the case means more women who are under Patterson's care may now be able to claim compensation. We'll be speaking to one of his former patients and a litigator who has helped hundreds of women come forward.

Also, how do athletes' menstrual cycles impact their performance? British sprinter Dina Asher-Smith now plans her training around her periods, as do many female footballers. I'll be discussing the current research into this area and why it's taken so long for this issue to be explored. And actually, we'd love to hear from you on this one. If there are any athletes out there already tracking their periods, do get in touch. Or if there's any sports people who have noticed a difference in how you perform when you're on your period compared to when you're not, let us know. You can text us on 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can tweet us as always as well, at BBC Women's Hour and email us through our website. Also this morning, you might have noticed a rattan revival. The cane patterned furniture is more popular than ever at the moment. And actually, I'm looking forward to finding out why that is with a third generation chair caner and interior design specialist. And diver Tom Daly recently won Olympic gold in Tokyo, and he's been celebrated in his home county of Devon by a crochet artist who has designed him a postbox topper.

Now, you might have seen these around as they've emerged quite a lot across the country throughout lockdown. They are basically impressive crocheted and knitted designs that are fixed on top of postboxes. We'll be finding out also how it's helped many people get through the tough lockdown period. But now first this morning, a new parliamentary report has found women in the armed forces were victims of bullying, harassment, discrimination and serious sexual assault and are being denied justice by a woefully inadequate military complaints process. The Defence Select Committee heard evidence from more than 4,000 women, including veterans and those still serving. MPs said they were truly shocked by accounts of sexual assault and rape. So joining us to discuss this in a little more detail is the author of that report, Sarah Atherton MP, also the Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence, Baroness

Annabel Goldie, and Colonel Lucy Giles from the Army Officer Training College, Sandhurst, who's with me in the studio. Good morning to you all. Good morning. Good morning. But first, let's hear from Diane Allen, who was on the programme a couple of months ago. Diane has campaigned on this issue of mistreatment as a former veteran.

She wants a Me Too movement moment in the armed forces and was the first person to give evidence to the committee. Men's stories, as I said, were perhaps in the 80s and 90s of sort of sexual issues and so on. But I described when I called for the military Me Too last year, stories of how effectively you would find men in your rooms, on barracks, and also how if you left the bar and wouldn't engage with the men they would follow you back to your rooms. So one story I gave was how I'd gone through a room and realised I felt threatened and had to go to another room and I watched from that room in sort of at midnight as three men tried to kick down a door and find me,

but of course I wasn't in that room. I'd moved to manage my own safety. So that was my own personal stories of an incident. But there were a few others. Yes, well, there was one that also caught my eye when you were serving in Northern Ireland and you'd been invited to a secure military base with around a dozen other young service women. And what happened there?

There was, I believe, something happened on stage. A man ran on naked. Yes. Now, again, this is some time ago. I was back in my 20s. And if you guys are geriatric, I'm a little bit concerned. But yes, we're all in different boxes and labels with this. So, yeah, I was back in my 20s. The problem was that at that time in Northern Ireland, if you went somewhere, you were constrained. So we couldn't leave the barracks. And I found myself as a young officer with a group of women who I was in charge of, but I was stuck inside this area. And we'd been invited to go to a function with all men, can't name the unit. But the function ended up being effectively a review.

And the first act was a naked man came on stage and bit the head off a chicken and it didn't get any better. Effectively that just became the threat level just got increased so all the women were very nervous and eventually towards the end we could just feel the tension rising. We actually felt the surge forward of the men to grab us and all of us collectively just struck out and ran and found a room where we could lock the door and actually keep ourselves safe. Former veteran Diane Allen talking to Emma Barnett there. Sarah, let me come to you first. How surprised were you by the seriousness of what you heard during this inquiry? Thanks, Jessica. Yes, I wasn't expecting quite the gravity, the intensity and complexity of the evidence that we received. It was quite distressing. I'd been a nurse and a social worker for 23 years.

And, you know, absolutely my jaw dropped at some of the narrative, some of the evidence we received. It was pretty shocking. And Sarah, with so many of these women detailing the abuse that they experienced, what was your experience like when you were in the armed forces? Well, I was in the armed forces in the late 80s. And I suppose at that time, I didn't think there was anything like this going on. And I went through life and it was only when I started to read the evidence that I realised, yes, it was happening back in the 80s. I think things have changed considerably since then. And I don't think we

can particularly judge the 80s with today's context. But yes, when I look back now reading the evidence, these sort of things did happen to me I evidenced them but it was part and parcel of what you thought the military was then but there has been some progress made since then. I'd like to bring in Lucy and Annabelle now and of course being your positions you're almost at the top of the hierarchy aren't you both of you and I wonder how confident are you that you know what's happening on the ground Annabelle first well firstly Jessica I just want to thank Sarah and her committee for an extraordinarily important piece of work but I also want to thank the veterans like Diane and the current service women for giving their evidence because I think the benefits have been

twofold I think the women have been twofold. I think the women, I hope, have felt valued and I hope they feel they've been given a voice which is being listened to. And I think also it's important that all the women understand that it was because of their evidence that they were so able to support the committee and enhance that inquiry. So I want to give them a heartfelt thanks. And I want to say how profoundly I regret some of the past behaviour, which was absolutely appalling, behaviour of the type described by Dan, and completely unacceptable. What I can say is that things have moved on. And I was very interested that the committee acknowledged that. The committee

acknowledged that change has been happening, but quite rightly questions the pace of change. And I think that is a genuine area for concern. And that's where I have a role to play in making sure that the good progress we are making, we can build on that by looking in detail at the committee's report. The government will respond to the report in detail, Jessica, in the autumn. But in the meantime, I'll be digesting it in detail and considering just what we can learn from it. I think that's one of the key areas here is how long change is perhaps taking. We'll come on to that in just a moment. But Lucy, how aware are you of what's happening essentially on your watch?

Well, I'd like to, first of all, also agree with both Sarah and the minister that, you know, for women, particularly our veterans to air and put out some of their testimonials is yes it makes uncomfortable reading and good because it should make us all feel a bit uncomfortable but I think the report is a really good sort of check point of where we have been where we currently are and where we need to be into the future now part of my story I've been in the army for 30 years. I'm still serving. I've got another five years to go. When I first started, I did my first 15 years of service in Northern Ireland, in Bosnia, Sierra Leone, East Timor, Iraq, Afghanistan so I should say, where I've been working in the training and education space, particularly in the officers world, where I've seen tangibly the difference that we are making at grassroots. I was at Sandhurst as the college commander there when we had diverse platoons for the first time, that is men and women serving in the same platooning.

When I came through through it was all female and i think it does change the culture if you're training in a way that you're eventually going to be fight to fight and that that respect for others is engendered at that stage but certainly you know in terms of policy and practice we are miles away from where we were and even in the last two years um it's been profound the different changes and it's led from the top from our from our joint chiefs and and in their in their stance and in the way that they are empowering us all to support each other and also implement the policies in a in a practical and pragmatic way so I mean mean, I wouldn't be, you mentioned that

coming up is some studies on, you know, the menstrual cycle. I mean, I really didn't see that I'd be, you know, sitting here in the BBC building talking about the webinar I've recently been on about the menopause. You know, it's staggering the progress that we have made and continue to make, I think. I don't think anyone is doubting that progress has clearly been made. I think one of the big issues here is that there's been many, many recommendations made over the years and those recommendations have not been implemented. I'll take service complaints as an example. Where exactly do service people safely go to when things go wrong? If there's no HR department, there's no confidential process to prevent the chain of command finding out. Recommendations were made in the 2019

Wigston review and Sarah Atherton's recent review also again makes calls for changes to the complaint system. Why have they not yet been implemented Annabelle? Well I think if you look at Wigston to which you referred Jessica that was an important piece of work by the MOD. I think it was actually a moment of pivotal change for the MOD because Mike Wickston's report really again like the committee began to shine a light on areas where MOD had to really get its act together and start improving what it was doing. On the matter of complaints changes have been been afoot but we've been conscious again that not enough was being done we were listening to the feedback and we realized that a lot of people particularly women I suspect were not using the complaint system because to be

quite honest I don't think they've confidence in it now a complaint system in which the potential complainers can't have trust is no good and so we have been doing work. And very interestingly, just this summer on the 31st of July, in fact, we will start a pilot on complaints and it will have various objectives, but it wants to see the original investigation target of 12 weeks reduced to six weeks. Now, I say this will start at the end of this month, that's because it will take in a civil service cohort. When we have the army stand down at the end of August, we'll take in the military cohort. And this pilot will be looking at how we make a better job of being more timely in dealing with complaints. So we want to see the original investigation target of 12 weeks reduced to six weeks. We want to make sure the complaint system is of better quality.

And that's what this pilot will be looking at. It will also be looking at using technology, for example, to pilot digital conferencing. That's simply to help personnel with a very highly mobile group and often geographically dispersed and global operations to be able to contribute. So that is good work that is happening. But what we've already been doing, Jessica, and I can't overemphasise the importance of this, we've already introduced measures to support complainers and, for that matter, respondents. And that includes early access to an assisting officer mandated offers

of informal resolution and improvement clarifying the forms for lodging the complaint so there is work that has been done but there is important work still to be done. Sarah I'd like to get your reaction from the on that because this the the details of the abuse were so graphic and so horrific you know we're talking about serious sexual allegations here that were made of rape, of gang rape. What's your reaction to what the Minister of Defence has just said? Yeah, I have to strongly disagree with Annabelle and Lucy. Women have been in full combat roles since 2018, and yet they don't even have body armour that fits them so they can be operationally effective. Change has been glacial. Change that the MOD, senior officers, civil servants think

is happening is not happening on the ground. There is initiative fatigue, there is a disconnect between what the MOD think is happening and what service women think is happening. And that's why it was so important we managed to speak to serving women to actually find out what is going on. And what is going on really does not reflect what Annabelle nor Lucy are saying. And these women deserve better. Six out of 10 has been inappropriate to handle the complaint aspect within the military complaints system. So too little is being done. We're seeing review after review. Annabelle's mentioned, which is welcomed, but there's too many reviews and not enough action. Annabelle's just mentioned another plan that I hadn't heard of. We've now got an intent to produce a strategy for dealing with rape and serious sexual offences,

which is welcomed, but it gives no timelines. And what it does do is firmly establish rape to be heard within the military complaint system, not the civil complaint system, which is one of our recommendations. So what I'm consistently seeing from the MOD is sticking plasters and yet more veneer on a system that is broken for service women. And they're looking for trust. They're looking for faith. They want

to know that the military is behind them and valuing them and having more initiatives. We've had the Lions, we've had the Wigston, we've had Dinuta, we've had the lions we've had the wigston we've had denuta we've got uh the defense select committee my information which is quite unique because it is from a service women's perspective and now they're proposing a sir richard henrique's report you know we really need to see some action for these women less, and we need to see that things are progressing on the ground because they have introduced a victims charter. Every service woman that we spoke to in our focus groups hadn't heard of it. They have introduced a bullying, harassment and discrimination helpline. Half the women had heard of it. All of them said it wasn't appropriate because when you're being consistently bullied, you need to speak to someone, not have some faceless person on the end of the phone for five minutes.

They have introduced mandatory bystander training. But according to the service women I spoke to, the video is in a civilian setting, is not relatable to the military and has made no positive impact on the ground. And another recommendation of mine is that whatever initiatives the MOD puts in place, it needs to be measurable so we can see positive impact for these service women. What do you make of that, Lucy? Sarah, they're clearly calling for more action. And it has to be said that the Lions report last year recommended serious allegations of sexual offences were moved to the civil court system. It hasn't happened. Why not? Well, if I may just first address the point that Sarah mentioned about there not being active change. I'm currently serving and I'm telling you that there has been some changes and I'm feeling it at first hand.

There's reverse mentoring systems, there's coaching systems, there's schemes set up by the Women in Defence governing body and those sort of networks as well. The network system that we currently have, and I know some of the respondents are part of the networks. I mean, it's

one of the most supportive and empowering groups that are out there. I'm not suggesting for one minute that there couldn't be better ways of dealing with serious incidents that happen in the army outside of what we currently have. And I would agree with the Minister and with Sarah on that. And that's why this particular report is particularly helpful. But in terms of, you know, I've been a respondent in the service complaint I've dealt with service complaints myself as a deciding officer and the best solution with a lot of these

complaints is to try and deal with it at the lowest level the mental stresses that can be put on people for having to go through the process is recognised and it is changing. I know I'm physically doing it, you know, as at today. I think, Jessica, if I might comment also on Sarah's point, and it is an important point because she rightly says a lot of things have been happening, a lot of initiatives, reviews, a lot of proposals, guidance, guidelines, advice. And while that's good news, because I think it does indeed confirm that a great deal has been happening, where I have a lot of sympathy with Sarah is I'm not sure that we've been

effective in communicating that. And that's an important deficiency, if you like, that we've got to address. Sarah referred to a new rape and sexual offences strategy and we've just announced that we're going to publish a defence-wide strategy for dealing with rape and serious sexual offences in the service justice system. And the reason we're doing that, Jessica, is just what Sarah has identified. So much has been happening that we need to pull that together into a consolidated form

so that everybody can look at it, understand what's going on and get a much more holistic picture of just how much change has been taking place and how much change is currently underway. What I would say to you is that to me, one of the major differences now is we've got a Directorate of Diversity and Inclusion. I think that's been a very important addition to the MOD. Now, this is headed by Sam Deforge, a very experienced and capable woman. And she is going to be snapping at my heels as a minister if she thinks we're not providing that communication and that coherence to our personnel. And I know someone else is going to be snapping at my heels, Jessica, and it's Sarah and her committee. And that's what they should be doing. So I think to put this into a context, I mean, the one thing I

don't want your listeners to think is that the armed forces as a career for women is some no-go area. Sarah's own report acknowledged that 90% of the military women who gave evidence would recommend the forces to other women, and 84% of them rated their overall experiences good or very good. So that's encouraging I'm pleased about that just as I know Lucy will be pleased about that there's a lot more we can do we want to do it but in a sense what Sarah identifies a double-edged sword for MOD on the one hand we've been doing lots of things I don't think we've been good at pulling it all together. Sarah what do you think of the consequences for these women who have all spoken out about the abuse that they've suffered and those who even want to get into the army?

What are the consequences for them if these changes aren't made? We've already identified that year on year recruitment targets aren't being met. And a lot of women leave the military a few years after having children. You know, these are our finest assets. We need to make sure they have rewarding, fulfilling careers, not only in the military and meet their potential. Because we have too few senior officers as role models in the military. We need to be nurturing more women to higher ranking roles so they can affect what is happening in the culture within the military. We need to see that.

And what we have found, Jessica, is that most women who go through the complaint system are telling me in the evidence that they are then leaving because the complaint system is more traumatising, it's re-traumatising them, and they are then leaving because the complaint system is more traumatising, it's re-traumatising them, and they are leaving early. And what is happening, whether they become veterans, is that they find that they are struggling with holding down jobs, relationships, keeping their children. Some of them are then entering the criminal justice system and substance misuse.

So we owe it to our veterans to get it right in the military. And if they can do that, and now is a good time to do it because we've seen major investment in the last five years. We've got the integrated review. We've got the command paper. The MOD have acknowledged, and I'm really grateful for the Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, for engaging in this process. They've acknowledged they've got a problem.

This is a massive stepping stone. And I'm really hopeful they will read the evidence, the bottom-up evidence, the evidence that matters, and they will make positive changes for the future. Because we have to get this right, not only for our sense of British values of justice and equity, but for the morale retention of women and for ultimately operational effectiveness. Thank you very much for your thoughts. We'll have to leave it there. Big thank you to Sarah Atherton, Baroness Annabel Goldie and Colonel Lucy Giles for joining us this morning. Now, how do athletes menstrual cycles affect their performance? Team GB superstar sprinter at the Tokyo Olympics, Dina Asher-Smith, says she's

been planning her periods since January because all of her major injuries have occurred whilst menstruating. Chelsea women's football team has started to tailor its players training to their menstrual cycles as well, led by their manager, Emma Hayes. So what research is being done into the link between periods and performance? And why has it taken so long for this issue to be recognised and explored? We're joined now by Dr Richard Burden, who is co-lead on female health and performance at the English Institute of Sports and Rebecca Myers, sports journalist for the Sunday Times,

who I believe is in Tokyo. So early evening for you. Good morning and good evening. I'll start with you, Richard. Now, it feels like a long time in the making that this kind of discussion is taking place. And now you've done a pilot study measuring female athletes' hormone levels. So tell us more about that and who took part and what you found. Yeah, so it's quite a long story, actually, because we were having similar conversations to this one prior to the Rio Games over five years ago now.

And it seems that we're still talking about why it's taken so long. I mean, I think historically the issue has been the lack of female participants in research studies so if you're actively not studying female health and performance um and and kind of ignoring it then the ability to be able to apply knowledge to to athletes or or kind of women in the general population in real life is is really limited and historically uh researchers and researchers shied away from including women in and females in research studies because of the menstrual cycle because of the fluctuations in hormones essentially makes it difficult um to do it and to control the studies and and so it's just been ignored um to a certain extent um and one of the one of the reasons the main reason

behind that is if you're going to understand the hormones and capture the hormones you have to take blood samples and that involves sticking needles into somebody's arm um on a on a daily or kind of every other day basis and no one wants to do that quite frankly and so we needed to find ways if if we were going to improve the the health and performance support of the athletes that we work with we needed to find a better way of trying to measure these hormones and and that's when the mint diagnostics project came about um our conversations with them were were essentially along the lines of you know instead of using blood to measure hormones can we use saliva can it be non-invasive so can instead of a needle can you drip it into a tube can you get

the information back as quickly as possible so we can then act on it and provide better support to our athletes and you know that conversation happened just after Rio the Rio Olympics Paralympics and here we are now five five years later, and we've made progress. We've started to measure athlete hormones on an individual basis. And it's starting to provide us information that we can use to better inform their support. Okay, Rebecca, I know that you've looked into this quite a bit in your role as a journalist. And it seems as though athletes can use period tracking as a way to improve their performance. Is that right? Absolutely. So this is what we're seeing now, actually, is that rather than just looking kind of at the downsides about, you know, avoiding the pain or the bloating or the headaches, whatever that might be, we're actually seeing athletes now, what are the upsides you know could this be something that

we can measure and actually use to our advantage you know what could you achieve if you worked with your body throughout the whole month and that's the case certainly behind um as you mentioned sort of chelsea tracking their footballers periods and the u.s national team at the world cup a couple of years ago actually paid tribute to that as a big part of their success and said it was integral to kind of performing so well and said it was integral to kind of performing so well and and it makes perfect sense because you know it's really not just a case of bleeding versus not bleeding pain versus not pain the hormones are changing all the time in the female body throughout the month and they're very powerful things so there's all these

different elements in terms of kind of you know when is the best time of the month for recovery when is the best time for pushing those really difficult sessions in the gym what should you be eating how should you be hydrating um i spoke to one sports scientist who said actually she thinks there are probably 50 different things you could do at any given time involving hormones and the kind of menstrual cycle that could change your performance so that's really exciting and i think that will be the future once once we have this data and you know to massively commend rich Richard as well for doing that study because there's only so many times I can write the story saying we just don't know enough yet yeah of course and I think it's come out recently hasn't it Richard that so many female athletes try to avoid having their period

when there's an important competition coming around perhaps by using the pill for example but that's not the only option now is it now that there's more discussion around this topic yeah and and it's it's absolutely right that we should we should be the language that we should be using here is is you know the menstrual cycle or periods doesn't have to be a barrier to performance doesn't have to be a barrier to training or any any aspect of of uh an athlete's life at the eis we've we've been trying to flip the perception you know so instead of it being a barrier can you use your menstrual cycle as a as a superpower you know can you start to understand

it a little bit better can you have better conversations with your coaches and your support team in order to to utilize the changes in the hormones and the positive aspects that that may bring um but the really important part of this though um is that it's very very individual and i'm very aware that i'm a i'm a guy saying this is never going to experience having a period or a menstrual cycle but one of the few things that we do know is that it's it's very individual you know even within a individual athlete it can change from one cycle to the next and you know we need to understand why athlete b is different from athlete a and we need to be able to support accordingly so the the time for us anyway uh you know the at the elite level where broad brush

generic support you know that's been taken kind of from what we've learned on male athletes and it's just superimposed into all female athletes support now that's gone that doesn't cut it anymore we we have to we have to individualize and be more precise about the information we're giving and the harmonics is allowing us to go many many many levels beyond what we've historically been capable of yes now we have been asking our listeners to get in touch about this subject nikki has emailed in to say i'm an amateur runner and take part in 10k and half marathon races and i definitely find my cycle impacts on my training a few years years ago, I went to a workshop about how hormones and the menstrual cycle can affect your training and how to manage this. It was the first time I learned what an impact it can have and was not something I thought I had,

I'd thought of before. I found I was beating myself up in training as for a week or so, I'd be more tired and lack energy and they say it's definitely something that needs to be talked about more but Rebecca this seems to still be a taboo subject I've heard so many nicknames for having a period that aren't actually I'm on my period culturally we I feel we have a long way to go perhaps yeah absolutely and I was so pleased to see Dina Asher-Smith mentioned in an interview recently I think he touched on that but you know she said she really wants to talk about it she wants to make a point of saying she's had to track her period for this long a period of time I've had athletes say to me before you know they've come on their period

you know the day before or even hours before a major race not had the result they want and had to sort of fudge a kind of oh I didn't wake up on the right side of the bed because they're worried that it will be seen as kind of basically using an excuse because obviously the sort of male dominated world of sport doesn't always understand quite the impact that a period can have so there's a lot of taboos still in this area and I'd also say you know there's a darker side of this as well and that's that you know in some sports having a period at all has actually been kind of frowned upon. And having your period stop as an adult woman, which is obviously very dangerous, has actually been celebrated as a sort of sign of hard work that tends to be in the in the sort of distance running or middle distance running zone. And Mary Kane, an American runner, came out and spoke about that a couple of years ago and scores of women came forward and said my periods have stopped while I was training and

I was sort of told well done you're obviously training really hard and that is a whole another area that we need to be so careful and we really need to be looking into because that's incredibly dangerous that will bring on bone density problems in later life and it's obviously a culture that is still in place in some areas of sport is it dangerous uh richard to have your period stopped like that uh i mean it depends you know again everyone has their reasons and everyone is different but it depends on why um they've stopped so um but rebecca is absolutely right you know we, you know, you've seen some fairly kind of devastating stories of really young athletes in the media talking about having osteoporosis and things like that at 20 years old. And that's essentially because their periods stopped or they never had periods. And so the fluctuations in the hormones that support bone density

and things like that, just it hasn't happened. So the long-term implications of that can be really, really severe. And so, you know, we're very aware that the here and now, as you can, you know, you see in the coverage of the Olympics at the minute, the here and now in terms of health and performance is really, really important but equally our responsibility is to protect future performance and future health not just not just for the paris olympic and paralympic games or future world championships but for an athlete's life after they finish competing they need to we we need

we our responsibility is to protect that so that they can be successful in their athletic careers. But come out of it the other end healthy. And so there are no risks to bone health, no risk to fertility, no risk to immune function. Thank you. What a fascinating discussion. And I hope we'll have many more conversations on this topic. We'll have to leave it there. Dr. Richard Berlin and Rebecca Myers, thank you so much for your time this morning. Now the Olympics are in full swing. Yesterday you might have seen Tom Daley and his diving partner, Matty Lee, win Olympic gold in the men's diving. Not only is Tom now the proud owner of a new shiny gold medal, he's also got his own postbox topper. That's right. Alison Tucker is one of the many yarn bombers who have emerged across the country during lockdown.

They've been creating graffiti tops for postboxes to bring smiles to their local communities, as well as to distract themselves and others from the day-to-day realities of COVID. And Alison has just done one for Devon's hero Tom Daley and in fact Alison you've been knitting almost whilst you've been waiting to be to talk to me this morning good morning how are you? Yes I'm fine thank you it's helped to calm my nerves. No nerves needed I promise I'll be gentle I'll be gentle just firstly I think you should probably explain what yarn bombing is it sounds quite aggressive but it's not is it no it's like a graffiti on um post box uh pillar boxes um put a

top on it and usually a scene of something and the idea is to make people smile and it's a distraction and I thought well I could do this I've made three and I've made a beach scene with a man on a deck chair in his socks and sandals and that's my trademark now it was it came from a photograph, an old photograph we found, and the family thought it was hilarious, of my husband in his socks and sandals in the 1980s. And I thought, yes, that's a bit of humour. I like humour. And it lifts people's spirits. And you've made one for Tom Daley as well, haven't you? How did that come about?

And just describe the scene, because I've seen it and it's very impressive. Yes, it's got a diving board on it and Tom just hitting the water in the middle of the swimming pool um it took about 50 hours to make the it's 50 5 0 50 yes um and I I don't use patterns I like to wing it make them all freestyle so there's obviously a bit of frogging going on I don't use patterns. I like to wing it, make them all freestyle. So there's obviously a bit of frogging going on. I don't know whether you know what that is. No, please explain. Yes, it's ripping the stitches back and that sounds like a frog.

Ribbit, ribbit. I love that. Now these toppers aren't secure to the postbox. How do you keep them on there? Because, I mean, it can get quite windy, can't it? Oh, yes. I use cable ties normally. They do get taken and stolen sometimes

or damaged, unfortunately. But that doesn't deter me. I just put them back again if they're found. And, yes. So Tom Daley yourself is from Devon. and i think he likes crochet too so does he know what you've made him is he aware of this oh yes um he's seen it and he's actually purchased i've got a private message from him asking how i made it and he's thinking about making one himself well there you go that's fantastic now what will you do now that he's actually won the gold medal? Because the one you made was to wish him luck. It obviously worked because he's won a gold medal. So now what?

Well, I'm actually thinking about making a new one with well done on it now with the two divers. Yes. Fantastic. Are you working on anything else at the moment? I do. I do make worry worms to leave around for people to find as gifts. Oh, please explain. What are those? Well, they're little worms as key rings. I make them into key rings and they're supposed to calm people's nerves. Brilliant. brilliant brilliant now you did mention that you were crocheting in the in the run-up to this to this interview to calm your nerves and i think a lot of people have used this haven't they during lockdown to ease the anxiety how have you experienced that yes it's kept me busy and

distracted from all the bad news going on and it's very therapeutic and I would recommend it to everybody. Wonderful I cannot wait to see the new Tom Daley postbox topper do send us in a picture won't you when you've when you've finished with it. I will. Brilliant it's been wonderful to talk to you Alison Tucker there thank you for your time this morning. I'd like to congratulate Tom he's done wonderful. He has he's everyone is proud. Everyone is so proud. Good to speak to you. I'm a solo bomber, and he's now a solo dive bomber. I like that.

That could be a bio update, couldn't it? I love that. Alison Tucker, a pleasure to speak to you this morning. Now, four years ago, breast surgeon Ian Patterson was found guilty in a criminal trial of multiple counts of wounding patients with intent and is now serving a 20-year prison sentence. He'd been carrying out unnecessary surgical procedures and operations on women. These included invasive unnecessary lumpectomies, mastectomies on women who did not have breast cancer and cleavage sparing mastectomies, a procedure not actually recognised in clinical practice. In September 2017, more than 750 patients treated by Patterson received compensation payouts from a £37 million fund. Last year, an independent inquiry found that more than 1,000 women

were operated on over a 14-year period. Patterson was employed and worked in the NHS, but also carried out operations at Spire Hospitals. As a direct consequence of the report, thousands of newly identified former patients of Patterson have now been written to by Spire Healthcare, and it's expected that many of them will be eligible to make a compensation claim. So let's get some more context on this.

Joining me is Linda Milband, who is National Practice Lead for Clinical Negligence at Thompson Solicitors. They have represented 650 of Paterson's former patients. And Cheryl, who is one of Ian Paterson's former patients. Good morning to you both. Good morning. Linda, please tell us more about what this means now, particularly for these women that perhaps no longer have to stay silent. Yes. Well, following the Bishop's report in 2020, SPIRE carried out a very comprehensive recall and this was for many thousands of people. It was consultant led to identify people who had received negligent treatment from Mr Patterson and they have now set up this fund so that hopefully women can be compensated without having to take court proceedings and receive a similar amount of compensation to the

amount that the women received in the previous fund which was set up after the conclusion of the court proceedings in 2017. Cheryl what's your reaction to this? It's a bit shocking really because it seems to be that they've put another pot of money aside and these practices where people are getting injured are still going ahead. I think it's good for the people that haven't had compensation to get something from it because at the end of the day they're victims the same as I was a victim. You were, you were under Ian Patterson's care so just explain to us what happened. In 2003 I found a lump in my right breast so I went to see Mr Patterson on the NHS I had an operation but when I woke from my operation I found he'd not only operated on my right side but he'd taken a big chunk of my left breast

and I didn't know that he was going to do that and he left my left breast looking really quite disfigured and his comment was well just go and I'll give you a plastic surgeon go and have plastic surgery to put that right and then in 2010 I saw him again but this was privately. And I found another lump on my right side. Went to see him. He said that he had an opening to operate within the week. So I'd done that. And when I woke and went for my follow-up consultation, he said I was so lucky that the lump had crystallised

and it was about to go cancerous. So I left his office with medication for a cancer patient and he said to just keep coming back for more reviews. So describe that moment when you found out that these operations were unnecessary. Well, it came through because I kept going back to my GP because I could still feel a lump after he told me that the one was going to be cancer. And I went back to see my GP he sent me um on the NHS and they kept saying that it was just scar tissue but I didn't know who to believe I didn't know whether because cutbacks on the NHS I was just trying to say well no it's nothing or whether to believe this man who works privately. And when it came out of what he'd been doing, I was absolutely shocked.

I was quite devastated, to be fair, because the state that he's left my breasts in, it's just awful. I'm really sorry to hear that. Linda, what needs to be done to protect patients? Well, the bishop did make some recommendations that the government should go ahead with. But unfortunately, at the moment, I don't think that these have been implemented. So there was supposed to be a national framework to manage patient recall. One of the problems with the initial Patterson claim was that Mr Patterson himself did not have adequate insurance so that was why we had to make the claim against fire and one of the things that the bishop said was that there had to be a safety net and a reform of insurance to make sure that this didn't happen again and the other thing that was recommended was that there should be much

better a collaboration between the CQC and professional regulators. So there is further work to be done in this area. We have had a statement from Spire Healthcare. A spokesperson has said patients who suffered at the hands of Ian Paterson must not be prevented from seeking compensation. Spire Healthcare has taken the initiative to collaborate in setting up the new fund so that Paterson's victims can access appropriate legal expertise. We are pleased the court has agreed to allow the claimant law firms to advise patients and refer them to the new fund. Cheryl, does that go far enough for you? It has to for me because

my claim was doubtful so you know I have to put this to bed but for people out there for women out there who think that they've been wronged I think they need to get in touch with Thompsons and

see it through. You know, this is really important for them. Linda, if anything, has enough changed or could this happen again? Well, Mr Patterson obviously was convicted of criminal charges and it was a very, very serious matter. But there still are problems with private and indeed NHS consultants. And there still have been cases against rogue surgeons. So I do think that the government does need to look at the bishop's recommendations in more detail and definitely ensure that they are implemented. Cheryl, thank you so much for sharing your experience this morning.

Good to speak to you. And also, Linda Milband, great to have you on the programme. Thank you very much. Now, in case you hadn't noticed, Rattan is everywhere. It's enjoyed its heyday in the 70s, and then it seemed to be confined to dusty garages and dated conservatories until now. High street shops and DIYers alike have jumped on the cane trend recently. You might have seen lampshades, chairs, sideboards, headboards, you name it,

you can find it in Rattan. And now to talk about the Rattan revival as I'm calling it Rachel South who's a third generation caner joins us and also journalist and co-host of the great indoors podcast Kate Watson-Smith good morning to you morning Jessica morning now uh Rachel when I think of Rattan I think mostly of outdoor garden furniture i'm pretty sure my parents have some in their garden anyway but what exactly is rattan so rattan is the bark of the rattan palm and it's the creeper that grows through temperate forests mostly in malaysia indonesia and the Philippines and they shave the bark and then use this very fine material to weave chairs and screens, doors for furniture and things like that and it's this sort of classic six-way sort of hexagonal pattern that is sort of part of our design DNA, really. And these sort of chairs have been woven sort of, well,

the pattern has been around for probably over a thousand years, but it's been seen sort of in Europe more from the sort of 1600s onwards. It's fascinating. Kate, Furniture Store Habitat says that searches for rattan have jumped up 3000% recently. But I suppose, you know, it was popular in the 70s, but it's actually got a much longer history, as Rachel was saying. Well, I think it was first found in baskets by the Egyptians and then the Romans had some and it came to northern Europe, as Rachel said, in about the 16th century. And I mean, like all these things, it's it's one of those very classic ancient materials that is having a bit of a moment in the spotlight. So while it appears as a trend now, because it's got that sort of white, the white heat of Instagram on it, if you like, it's something that that is a classic, As you say, your parents have some.

It will be used in different ways each time it comes back into fashion. But I don't think there's anything wrong with investing in it now because you can reuse it and it's cyclical, like all fashions. Now, talk to me about the peacock chair, because that's one of the most iconic pieces of Rattan furniture, surely. You know, it became the chair of revolution, almost has a regal quality to it, doesn't it? Just describe what that looks like and the history behind it. Well, it's that huge chair. It's quite narrow, actually, in the sitting bit with arms.

And then it has this big curve around the back, which really does look like a a peacock's tail and it appears that no one exactly knows where it came from there are lots of stories about whether it was first made in a prison in Manila in the Philippines and was then brought over to America it was for my generation I remember seeing it on the Addams family with Morticia Addams used to sit in it. And that kind of marks it for me. And it was in black and white and then it moved on into the 70s. But it was also used a lot or rattan furniture was used in Hollywood films. So it became something sort of exotic and exciting to have and a bit celebrity. And I think that also helped it spread from films downwards to sort of the rest of us. Right now Rachel you were taught to recane chairs by your dad I think and who was taught by

his dad what is it you enjoy about this process? Well most of my work is restoration work and I get to work on some really exquisite sort of antique furniture, mid-century modern Danish furniture. So that side of things is lovely. But more recently, I suppose, in line with this sort of new trend for Rattan, I found that I've been able to work more with furniture designers, interior designers, hotels, all sorts of specifiers. And that's sort of given me an opportunity to sort of expand the sort of types of patterns. So I've really sort of moved away from using the very traditional sort of hexagonal six-way weave. And I sort of experiment with sort of quite complicated weaves and I incorporate other materials, leather, wire, things like that.

So I'm really sort of enjoying being able to I've sort of got a good grounding in the traditional craft, but I'm really sort of enjoying being able to sort of be a bit more creative with the material. And I really like collaborating and working with designers who want to sort of incorporate the material into what they're doing. Okay so if I want to jump on this trend then Kate I wanted to add some rattan to my home where do I start and does it have to be a chair? No no of course it doesn't have to be a chair. I mean, that's the joy of it. There are now so many pieces around. One of the good sort of smaller pieces you might want to start with is perhaps a mirror. There are lots of vintage rattan mirrors about. Lampshades as well.

Ilse Crawford did a lampshade for IKEA a few years ago, which has now become one of their classics. And that's a really good way to start, particularly as a lampshade will diffuse the light and create interesting patterns when it's turned on so you get even a little bit sort of more bang for your buck if you like but there are so many pieces of furniture we do think of the chair as the classic in the conservatory but you can get bedside tables so you can have a matching pair of those. There's lots of high street stores doing bed heads in sort of curvy, the rattan is the thicker vine, which you might see. So again, there's furniture, which you can buy chunkier. And then there's Rachel's sort of more delicate woven cane, which I think, yes, is the bark of the rattan plant. So there are various different ways you can bring it into your house.

I think, as with all trends, if you like, don't go overboard. You know, it's fine to have the full set in your conservatory should you have one. But it is very adaptable. It can work in any interior, but perhaps just have one great piece. And the joy of rattan, of course, is you can paint it. It takes paint really well. So if your interiors tend towards the darker or the heavier as mine are, you can paint something and spray it in a gloss paint in a deep emerald green

and have some modern cushions on it. And you can really bring the look up to date whilst sort of being within the fashion moment as well, if you like. My goodness, what a range of options. modern cushions on it and you can really bring the look up to date whilst sort of being within the fashion moment as well if you like my goodness what a range of options okay I'm gonna have to really sit down and think about this um okay so Rachel what about if I wanted to actually get involved in in creating rattan in in caning chairs and things like that is it okay for me to get a DIY kit or is that blaspheme to someone of your ability no not not at all I'm I really well I teach a lot of people to cane chairs and we always start with

the sort of that classic pattern the sort of joy of caned chairs is that they're designed to be rewoven again and again so if breaks, the holes are in the frame, you clear away the old cane and you're ready to go. I teach a lot of people, and again, going back to your other guest with the knitting, sort of over lockdown, it's quite a sort of peaceful, meditative thing to do. And there are DIY kits. There's plenty of books.

It's always nice to sort of have a tutor just to sort of give you a little bit of guidance and sort of, you know, some of the more annoyance aspects to the craft. But, you know, why not? It's a great craft. And there's, you know, hundreds of chairs out there that sort of they get broken, someone puts a bit of wood over the top, but you take it off and yeah, reweave it. That's what they're designed for just to be used again and again fantastic um it's been such a joy to speak to you i've learned lots in this discussion uh i have to say um what an absolute pleasure to speak to you both uh rachel south and kate watson smith thank you very much thank you now we're just about coming to time on Women's Hour, but I just did want to read out just an email received on abuse in the army.

And someone has got in touch via email anonymously to say, my daughter is currently serving in the Navy and the sexism and maldominance is frightening. Their behaviour towards women would not be allowed in any other section of society. But as it's the military, the higher authorities are given permission to sweep this subject under the carpet. Now, of course, we'll have much more on this in the coming weeks on Women's Hour. But thank you so much for listening. I'll be back with you tomorrow. Thanks for listening. You can join me live for tomorrow's programme at 10 o'clock. Hello there. I'm Simon Armitage. I'm just heading down the garden path,

so this might be a good moment to tell you about the new series of my Radio 4 podcast, The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed. This shed, actually. And the shed's been quite a lonely place this past year for fairly obvious reasons, so it's great to be able to plump up the plastic cushions, set up an extra fold-away chair and natter about life and creativity with talented and thoughtful people. Guests include the Yorkshire Shepherdess Amanda Owen, Broadcaster DJ and Gardener Joe Wiley and Smith's guitarist Johnny Marr. Put your ear to one of the many knotholes in the wall

by searching for The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started

like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.