Woman's Hour - 27/10/2025

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. It's coming on really straight.

It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden. Yeah. And I do look like. my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, today the one and only Petula Clark now at 92 has released her memoir. And what a life. Pichula takes us from London in World War.

to a Las Vegas disco with Frank Sinatra to filming with Fred Astaire and Francis Ford Coppola through to today. That is coming up. Also, over the weekend, political victories for Lucy Powell as new Deputy Labour leader and Catherine Connolly will become Ireland's next president.

They were winners in two women races. And with the only female-only field considered unremarkable, perhaps, is this a sign of progress we'll discuss. We have a professor, a professor of the psychology of time. Now that woman is perfectly placed to talk to us about how the clock change affects women's well-being

more than men. And we will look at an investigation into an extreme online right-wing group called 764, consisting primarily of teenage boys and young men who want to harm vulnerable girls. If you would like to get in touch with the program today, the number to text is 84844 on social media. we're at BBC Woman's Hour

or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or voice note the number is 0-3-700-100-444. But let me turn to singer, actor and performer, Petula Clark. Her career, as I mentioned, has spanned over eight decades. She sang to wartime troops in the 40s,

was a 1950s child star, became a European musical icon, and then conquered America with her number one hit downtown. She also starred in Hollywood movies, alongside Fred Astaire, performed on stage in musicals including The Sound of Music, Sunset Boulevard and pretty recently Mary Poppins.

Now at 92, Petula has published her autobiography. Is That You, Petula, is the name of it. And she joined me in the Woman's Hour studio. I asked her first about the title of that book. It was a quote from someone quite famous. Her story begins in Montreal in 1969. I was doing a series of concerts. that's there, the Place Les Arts.

When I first went to Montreal to sing, I was booked as a French performer because I'd had a lot of hits in French, and they'd seen me on French television. And then a few years later, downtown happened and all those wonderful hit songs after that. You know, when they asked me back to Montreal, I thought, oh, great, I'll do a bilingual show.

It was open war in the theatre. When I sang in English, it was awful. And it wasn't French. kind of jousting instead it was. They were serious. And I didn't realize at the time, but it was a very delicate moment in their history. I was very upset.

I used to come offstage in tears. And I had read that John Lennon was in town. And I didn't know John Lennon. But I thought, I need to speak to somebody about this who you know who maybe give me some advice. So I thought, I'll go and see John Lennon. It was pouring with rain, of course. I left the theatre.

The door of his apartment was open. And there they were, John and Yoko, in bed. Now, this was a bed-in. I don't know if any of you remember that. For some of our younger listeners, they may not remember when they would take to the bed. Well, yes, they used to do interviews in bed. You know, it was for peace.

Yes. Anyway, standing there in the doorway, dripping mascara running down my face, and John looks up, squints a bit. and he looked at, is that you, Petula? Really, what a ridiculous scene. He said, come here love, you know. And so I did.

And we had a long chat about it all. And he gave me some advice, which I can't repeat on the radio. Okay. Now I'm intrigued. Can't give you that quote. That's wonderful. I mean, it just shows just a snapshot of this extraordinary life. you have had

and the life you have led and some of those people and you were a singer for so long I didn't realise how young you were when you started

do you want to tell us about your first performance? I don't know exactly how old I was there's a lovely picture of me at the BBC I'm looking at it the book just opened on it

there you go standing on a box singing Ave Maria for the BBC at the Criterion Theatre which is not far from where we're sitting right now in 1942.

Oh, my goodness. Well, yes, that's when I did my first radio performance at the Criterion Theatre, which is still here, of course. It's right in the middle of Piccadilly. It's a lovely little theatre. And the BBC used to use it because it's underground. And it was like a glorified air raid shelter. It was full of sandbags.

And that's where I first performed for the radio. I went there because there was a show. on BBC for the overseas service for the forces where children could go along and send a message to their dad or their uncle and I was there to send a message to my uncle and during rehearsal there was their most enormous air raid and the place was shaking and a lot of the kids were up from the country and were terrified

and some of them were crying and the producers said would somebody like to come up and sing a song or say a piece of poetry just to calm things down Nobody volunteered. So I put my hand up and said, I'll sing a song. So I was taken up to the little stage and I sang. I sang Mighty Like a Rose into the microphone. And they heard it up in the control room and said,

we'd love to have you sing on our program. And that's the first time I sang on the air. And there was an enormous reaction to it, positive one. No, the soldiers wrote in and some of the letters were absolutely lovely and that was the beginning and that was all happening during the Second World War that's right

really where your career began and you became billed as the soldier's child as opposed to or the forces child as opposed to the forces sweetheart for example that was Vira Linn but you did perform for the troops there was another young girl also in your midst Julie Andrews.

Yes. We were both sort of child prodigies. And we used to travel around on troop trains, going to different camps to perform for the different, sometimes the brets, sometimes free French, sometimes Americans, Canadians. And we were both rather skinny little girls. And we used to sleep in the luggage racks.

That was quite the picture as well, so evocative of these little girls that are working really, very hard, but then getting a little bit of sleep whenever they can as well. We loved it. I spoke to Julie about this a few years back and she remembers it very well. It was great fondness.

She loved it. How lovely to have somebody as well to reminisce on, you know, something that was so extraordinary really but that somebody else was there who understands exactly what it was that you went through. You travelled away from home a lot. You travelled with

your dad who wanted to be an actor so I suppose he was living vicariously in some ways through you but it turned out which I was so surprised as you were after working really hard for 15 years you split ways with your father you're going to be your own woman that there was no money in the bank yes that was quite a moment my sister and I went to see an accountant and he looked at the figures and he looked up and he said,

you've got £500. I mean, I wasn't bad in those days, but I had been working pretty well non-stop, you know, for many years. And I was expecting a bit more than that. Did your father ever say where the money went? Because he was your manager in that way. Yeah, so I think he was a bit mystified by the whole. That's what he said.

I mean, he was a good man. I don't think he gambled, and he liked nice cars. He always had rather grand cars, but where it went, I really don't know. But it does go. It does go. And you built yourself up again, though. I mean, this incredible going from the UK to then becoming this massive star in France and, you know, singing in French, just picking it up.

And then, of course, breaking into America as well, which so many people wanted to do. But speaking of cars, I did love that you bought a pink sports car to go with your red hair at the time? Of course I did, yes. Well, it was my hairdress who said, because I told her I was going to get a car. I said, what colour did you? Oh, she said, hmm, pink. That's the best colour for redheads.

Yeah, I love my little pink sports car. So maybe you inherited a little bit of that from your dad as well, the love of cars. But of course, so many movies as well. And you strike me as somebody who is constantly moving on to the next project and not completely nostalgic in a way. So I'm wondering what it was like to write a memoir. It wasn't easy, frankly. I had been asked, I don't know how many times in different countries. Oh, you know, it's such a wonderful life.

I've had no desire to do it whatsoever. And it was my husband, who we lost life. last year, who said you really must do it. You know, if you don't do it, somebody else will and probably get it all wrong. So it was a difficult time for me to write it. You know, I was grieving deeply. I still am, actually. It was such a long relationship, Claude.

Yes, Claude. He was a great guy. He was very handsome, very French. I love the photographs in the book as well. Yes. So it was not an easy thing for me to write. And I'm not really that nostalgic. I don't look back all the time saying, oh, those are the good old days.

It was also part of your success. This is 1964, the hit Downtown, number one on the Billboard chart. You won the first of two Grammy Awards, appearing on the Ed Sullivan Show, which was the pinnacle, of course, of fame and success at that time. How do you reflect on breaking, into America? Well, it was extraordinary.

You know, you can't plan being a star in the States. A lot of people try. But I arrived in America with number one hit, which everybody was crazy about, and they all wanted to see me. And it was extremely exciting.

I have to say it was a pretty amazing experience. Of course, New York was the beginning. As you say, I did the Ed Sullivan show. But I went on to do all the other things, you know, Dean Martin. And Dean Martin, let's just take a moment when I read in the book. You had a soft spot for him. You loved working with him.

We enjoyed working together. A lot of people, after a while, started thinking, hmm, there's something going on here because I did the show so often. But no, it was all very professional. I guess we were attracted to each other. You know, that happens as a lot in this business. Good looking man. And he was funny, too.

He made me laugh. Frank Sinatra, you had a meeting also with him. Didn't sing with him, you said, but did, I'm just kind of giving a flavor of your life in America. Yes. I went to the studio. He was recording one of my songs. I don't know if it was downtown. I don't sleep in the subway.

And I was invited. Frank used to like having an audience in the recording studio. a small or invited audience because he liked the feeling of performing two people. Sometimes a recording studio is rather cold. Yes. Quiet, weirdly. That's right. Anyway, I went along and he was lovely,

and he wasn't too crazy about the recording. He said, get out of here, let's have some food. You know, I don't know. And he was married to Mia Farrow at the time. So we went out, Claude, Mia, Frank and me. Had a very nice meal in L.A. And then we went to a disco after it was called a daisy, which is like the place. And I'm not into that.

And Frank was definitely not into it. So after about half an hour there, he said, come on. We went to the back room. And Tony Bennett came in to say hello. As he does. He was lovely. And then some guys came in. I say guys because they were guys, you know, looking a bit iffy.

and Frank obviously knew them and the mood changed and Frank took out a what you call a piece like a pistol yeah and put it on the table and I looked at Claude

he said hmm maybe we should get out of it anyway we left and you left but there's an anecdote if ever there was one to come from that time but we're going to stay with some big names

you made many many many movies. Also, Finian's Rainbow with Fred Astaire, directed by a very young Francis Ford Coppola. That feels like it was a highlight of your movie career. It was a highlight. I think I was my happiest and everything was going well between Claude and me. We had two lovely little children who were absolutely gorgeous, two little girls, Burr and Kate. And I was working with the best people in the world, you know, and that was pretty good, I have to say. So it was, it was a magical

moment. Could you tell that Francis Ford Coppola at that young age was going to be a star? I couldn't tell, no, because he hadn't done the godfather or any of that, but I knew he was good. What's more, he was lovely. He was very funny, very musical, Italian, of course.

And Francis, Fred and I used to travel around in California quite a lot. And we used to sing all the time, all three of us. Fred used to get me to sing because he loved pop music. I tell you what, you sing for me and he would and Francis would join in.

It was that kind of three musketeers on the road, rather. It was lovely. I love that idea. The pictures that you conjure up for us. Mani will remember you the role of Norman Desmond and Sunset Boulevard in the West End, of course. And then the birdwoman in Mary Poppins in London, 2019 until 2023.

Of course, a pandemic in the middle that was upsetting things and whatnot. But Manny might wonder, what is next? Petula. I am an old lady now. Well, but you know what I mean? It's, I don't think that comes into it, to be quite honest. Well, there's been talk for me doing another concert in London, which I would love to do.

Because, you know, the last thing I did in London, as you said, is the Boyd Woman in Mary Poppins, which was not what I'd call a thrilling moment, although it was a wonderful production. But I wasn't doing anything exciting in it. And you want excitement. Yes, I do. This is what I'm hearing.

You are a dynamic, fascinating woman. You're 92 years of age. what do you think is the secret to your sense of joie de vivre? I love what I do. I think I'm privileged all these years to have been doing what I love. You know, how many people can say that. And the energy comes from doing it. And the energy that comes back to me from the audience, it's two-way traffic

it's a very exciting thing to do a very energising thing to do and I think and I can't imagine my life without it without music and garlic if you really want to know so there we have it the secret to the amazing life

of Petula Clark is lots of music and a little bit of garlic more than a little bit or more than a little she is a total delight the singer-actor and performer Petula Clark and her autobiography is that you Petula is available now. A couple of messages

that came in. Mary message to say as a toddler I sat on my dad's knee as he sang downtown. He died this April. I cried when you played it. And another not Petula's fault, but my 91-year-old mother vividly remembers our neighbours playing downtown on repeat at full pitch which would wake me up and make me cry

as a baby back in Durham in the 60s and we've never been able to listen to it Since. So a couple of moments that Petula has touched the lives. 8444 if you want to get in touch with Women's Hour. Now, there were two big leadership contests over the weekend, both of which saw two female candidates going head to head. In the UK, Lucy Powell beat Education Secretary Bridget Philipson to become the deputy leader of the Labour Party. In Ireland, the independent, Catherine Connolly won the presidency over Fina Gale's Heather Humphreys. So what does this tell us, if anything about political leadership in both countries and the impact that this might have on

women. I have with me, Una Mulali, columnist at the Irish Times and Eleanor Langford, political reporter at the eye newspaper. Good morning to you both. Great to have you with us. Eleanor, let's begin with Lucy Powell because she was dismissed from the cabinet in September's reshuffle following the sacking off Angela Rainer, which led to this open spot then, perhaps surprising that she's back as a deputy leader. Yes, I don't think anyone would have predicted this six months ago. Lucy Powell's rise to power. I think her victory really tells us about where the Labour Party finds itself now.

This is a party that's in government, but it's still very much arguing over its direction. There's a big divide between, I think, the parliamentary Labour Party and the membership in terms of priorities. And, you know, Lucy Powell is part of Labour's soft-left tradition. She's quite allied to Ed Miliband and Andy Burnham. and I think her win shows members want a bit more debate they want a bit more sort of conversation about issues like benefits and the general direction of the government on cuts

rather than it being a very top-down approach which is I think what a lot of members feel at the moment because the word bold stood out for me from when she addressed I suppose everybody really in that speech the people in the room but also of course potential voters as well or constituents What do you think she means by that?

I think, you know, bear in mind she's replacing Angela Rana who worked with Kyrsama for many years. They did disagree on a lot of things, but I think they were very, very much a unit. And, you know, Angela Rana did go along with a lot of what the government was doing, at least publicly. And so she's pitching, well, her pitch that got her this post was that by taking on, you know, this role,

she is going to be, as you say, bold and actually question the government. on some of these key things because I think, as I mentioned before, a lot of the membership, I think, feel that the government isn't prioritising a lot of, you know, very core labour values, things like, you know,

workers' rights or the environment or, you know, not cutting disability benefits. So she's pitching herself for someone who's going to come in and say, to the government, what they're doing wrong, which I don't really think Angela Rainia was doing to the same extent. Interesting. I mean, if we cast our minds back

when following Angela Rainer's resignation. It wasn't just Bridget Philipson and Lucy Powell, but we had Emily Thornbury, Alison McGovern, Paula Barker, Belle Ribeiro, Adi. How do you understand that female field for a contest like this? It was clear from the outset and I think it was discussed that, you know,

it was important that a woman replace a woman, you know, that Labour Party has never had a female leader, a permanent female leader. It's had interim female leaders. And so this was a chance for many of the parties, you know, strong female figures to put themselves forward. And I think, you know, the race that it boiled down to of Bridget Philipson and Lucy Powell was an interesting one because Bridget Phillipson is very much government in the cabinet, education secretary, very starmerite, very bought into what the government's doing. And Lucy Power was the outsider, not by choice. She was a little more on the self.

soft left, not as allied to Stama and it was a very, very stark choice, but going back to what I said at the start, I think the party was very aware that it's not had a time of diversity in its leadership and so it was important that it be an all-female shortlist and it

be a woman, basically a woman in this post. It's interesting as you talk about that kind of being the outsider so to speak, she will remain on the back benches because I want to turn to Una. Now, Catherine Connolly might be a whole unknown entity to a lot of our audience, Una. She was an independent backing from a number of parties.

But how would you describe her to the uninitiated? Catherine Connolly is a left-wing politician. She is very much anti-war. She describes herself as a pacifist. She has a huge interest in the climate crisis as an existential challenge that we all face. Her campaign also foreground Palestinian solidarity, which is obviously a huge movement in Ireland.

But she's an interesting woman. She's 68 years old. She grew up in a council estate in Galway and the west of Ireland and a family of 14. Her mother died when she was just nine years old. And she managed to really connect with young people and bring together this kind of coalition of support. The United Left parties and many female leaders there too, leader of Sinn Féin, leader of the Labour Party, leader of the Social Democrats, were all women along with. People for profit a socialist party

and also the Green Party and she just really was very authentic throughout the campaign. There was a really great social media campaign as well. She did lots of podcasts. And she's quite different

to the more media-preppy sound-bite political establishment type character. One interesting factoid for a campaign was her team had to ask her to stop her regular rollerblading routine in case you got

injured. That might be a first for a president of Ireland. Perhaps, perhaps. And even yesterday, you know, after she was elected she was, she just turned up at the side of the road when the Dublin Marathon was on to cheer on the runners in the rain

because she's also a keen marathon runner and there were some other kind of viral moments of her playing keepy upies with football and but you know she's a very yeah, she is an outsider I suppose to the establishment. She's quite critical of Ursula von der Leyen's leadership in the European Union, particularly as it pertains to the European Union's response to the genocide. She is, you know,

she critiques what she describes as the military industrial complex and increased militarization. So she is very particular with regards to that. But I think, you know, the Irish presidency, see it's an interesting role. It's quite ceremonial, although it does have powers in terms of signing off on legislation. But people tend to choose a president

who has intellectual heft and who has debt and is kind of seen as almost a counterweight to government sometimes and also as a kind of moral conscience, I suppose, of the prevailing social values at the time. So it is

interesting that a woman who describes herself very much as anti-war and as a pacifist has now won that. Yeah and of course the term genocide is controversial with strong opinions held on both sides. But Eleanor, what do you think will be

if any the policies that she may push Lucy Powell when it comes to women? I think you know, we can expect a significant focus on making sure that there's diversity

within the party. I think that's something that she has spoken about in the past, making sure that women are represented in women's voices. And I think, you know, when it comes to women specifically, things like benefits, workers' rights, things are very important to Labour voters. I think she's able to sort of spin them in a way that can support women, you know, across the country.

She's not had a role specifically that relates to women in the past will be interesting to see how she comes out on issues such as domestic violence and paternity leave, things like that. We haven't really heard from her on those, but her kind of soft left positioning makes it very likely that she will probably want to push the government to protect women and families. Ireland is no stranger to have any woman for president. In fact, Michael D. Higgins really is the only one out of four presidents. That was not a woman. the final two being in that two women race and you've mentioned a number of policies that Catherine Connolly is very strong on but is there anything specifically with women

that you think she might focus on? Yeah, you know, she has been very outspoken against gender-based violence when she was in the Parliament as a TD. She was also very outspoken with regards to the rights of survivors of mother and baby homes and Magdalene Laundries. She would frequently speak

about that and critique the types of redress schemes the government had established. So she does have a feminist lens for sure and she also supported marriage equality and also the abortion

rights movement in terms of our referendum in 2018 as well. So there's no doubt that she has a feminist lens for sure. But you know it's interesting there were two women kind of left in the campaign. It was it was quite a short ballot

and it wasn't really remarked upon. You know, Ireland is very used to female presidents and used to female leadership although we've never had a female Taoiseach. But it was interesting that it just did not come up and I think yeah, I suppose Irish

political leadership and certainly when it terms to the presidency just doesn't tend to be gendered at all and that's definitely a positive thing I think. Let us see. As their terms go ahead Una Mulali, Eleanor Langford. Thank you both so much for joining us this morning. A new season of Love Me is here.

Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stood myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden.

Yeah. do look like my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Morning. I want to turn next to a shocking story of online abuse, revealing the dark side of the internet. A BBC podcast, Assume Nothing, creation of a teenage saintness, tells the story of a shadowy online community known as 764. It has alarmed several international law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, who are actively investigating the group and consider activities a real and present danger to all children. 764 recruits teenagers online through mainstream chat rooms

where they are coerced into live-streaming rituals, engaging in self-harm and participating in conversations that promote suicide and planning acts of violence. As you can imagine from what I've mentioned there, you might find some of the conversation distressing. The four-part investigation that we're talking about It's hosted by Mother of Two and BBC journalist Joe Palmer. Joe sets out to uncover how vulnerable young people are being drawn into a dangerous online world.

And in a moment, we're also going to hear from Megan Hinton, victim and survivor advocate at the Marie Collins Foundation, which works to tackle technology-assisted child sexual abuse. Welcome, Joe. Very good to have you with us. How did you come across this story? Well, it was a complete chance. I was at the old Bailey in London covering an entirely different court case. And a colleague sort of stuck their head around.

the door to me and said, look, there's a really bizarre case going on, something to do with a teenage boy and a far-right Satanist group, come out of America. And I sort of stuck my head around the door. And I think what I anticipated was dark web and probably half a dozen teenagers. But the reality was the complete opposite. It was a network of teenage boys, lots of them, hunting for girls on mainstream social media platform.

So every app that your teenager is on, plus probably a load of the ones that you and I are on, that is where they operate. They operate in plain sight. And I was just sort of so shocked, A, as a mum of teenagers and B as a journalist. So that sort of basically became the journey of the podcast I never intended to make. It's really quite something, and I've listened to all four episodes. 764, they prey on young people who've expressed vulnerability online, as you describe. Largely boys and young men praying on vulnerable girls. Yes, that's exactly it.

And in fact, the National Crime Agency said to me just last week that all teenage girls are vulnerable because this is happening in plain sight on the main web. And it's mainly teenage boys aged between 14 and 17. But again, those authorities are really worried that those ages are getting younger because there's lots of boys lurking around the edge of these groups that are then getting pulled into some really criminal behaviour. So these boys will prey on any teenage girl who is perhaps having mental health struggles,

maybe they're exploring their sexuality, you know, perhaps they're just questioning their place in the world or their friendship groups. and these boys find them on those main platforms, they befriend them, and then they move them into other chat rooms where they're manipulated and coerced into really humiliating and harmful acts. And you say in the podcast that this group is growing rapidly. Your podcast features some extraordinary footage,

including a clip that we're about to play, an example of the sort of abuse that you speak of. And I want to emphasise you described this as low level compared to many of the things that happen, on the video calls. And it's something you were sent during your investigation. I found it very disturbing listening to it, which I want to let our listeners know. Can you tell them what we're going to hear?

Yeah, humiliation is a really big part of this. And what you're going to hear is a teenage girl. You know, she was probably 13. She definitely wasn't older than 14. And she's being coerced into cutting off her ponytail. Now, she does this while she's hunched over her mobile phone in her dimly lit bedroom. And I guess what I want you to think about is if this was your daughter coming downstairs early in the evening, upset because she'd cut her ponytail off, would you ever make the leap to thinking she'd been coerced by a bunch of boys? And this was just step one on a road that was going to become far worse and far painful.

But let's go back to that bedroom. And, you know, she's there in one hand, she's holding a large pair of black kitchen scissors, the type we've all got. and in the other hand is her ponytail. You know, she's crying, she's asking not to do it. And just to be clear, out of respect to the victim, we've removed her voice from this clip and indeed from the podcast. But the other voices you hear are the real voices of the people on the call that day, along with me explaining what I saw.

And the first voice you're going to hear is that of one of her abusers. Okay, get your hair. It's chopping time. Put all of your ponytail off right now. Yeah. There are at least seven people on the call, but only she has her camera on. The rest are hidden behind fictitious screen names. You can only hear their voices.

Okay. Let's press send. Go. She hesitates. The group immediately threatened to send something onto people if she doesn't comply. My guess is they have compromising photographs of her. She pleads with the group not to share the material. Oh no, should we press send?

Start cutting. Chop, chop, chop. This is the next sound. Keep going. Her beautiful ponytail is gone in seconds, but the humiliation is not over. These chat rooms are about degrading people, making them feel utterly worthless.

Okay, I want you to take the hair that you cut off, right? I want you to put it in your mouth. She's told to apologize to each person on the call. I want you to say, I'm sorry. Distraught and shaking, she asks if by cutting off her ponytail, it means she is now free. No. I mean, this is just step one.

It is chilling. There's a sense that they have material, that they're threatening to release about her. Tell us a little bit, Joe, who these people are and how common that. sort of scenario is. I mean, I know it's really horrible to listen to, but I think as parents, as professionals who work with young people, we need to know that this is happening, and it's happening now. It's still happening.

In terms of the people on that call that day, we know there were members of 764. And one of the things that seems to draw these teenage boys together is they've all consumed a large amount of ultra-violent content, again available on mainstream platforms. And by that, I'm talking about torture, beheadings, real-world stuff that we'd all be repulsed by. And it seems to have desensitized them to the extent that, again, the National Crime Agency described it to me as almost the gamification of hurting girls. They're not making any connection between those girls and real life.

It's almost like it's a video game. And the National Crime Agency now say this is the biggest online threat they're dealing with. I do want to point people towards the BBC Action Line website if you are affected by anything that you're hearing in this discussion, there's information and support there. I want to bring in Megan Hinton, victim and survivor advocate at the Mary Collins Foundation. Megan, good to have you with us.

What's your reaction to hearing that clip? What do you think people should know about how widespread the issue is? I don't think anyone insane mind could listen to that clip and not feel horrified and repulsed that this is happening to children and young people in the UK today. I think we are facing a crisis online that seems to be year on year getting worse and worse. The Online Safety Act has just been introduced and we think we are doing incredible in terms of safeguarding the online landscape for children and young people. But I think this threat is clear that we are simply just not doing enough to

safeguard children online in today's current environment. Joe, elsewhere in the podcast, the mother of a victim talks about taking her daughter offline and the lens her daughter, another victim of 7-6-4, went to get back online again and re-establish the link. That seems so counterintuitive to us, but I suppose it tells us a little about the hold that group members can have over their victims. Yeah, and you've got to remember they're grabbing these girls at a time, you know, 12, 13, 14, where they're incredibly vulnerable. They've already got challenges going on in their own life. And I remember that mum saying to me that they basically beat her daughter down so she felt she was nothing with them or without them.

And I thought that really explains that vicious circle and the fact that these victims, because they're so young, they don't even realise their victims sometimes. I want to turn back to you, Megan. Can you help us understand that a little? You've been a victim of child sexual abuse where intimate photos were used against you, and I'm so sorry you went through that. Yeah, so it's the age-old question.

We constantly ask why children didn't just simply block them, leave the conversation. It's the same question that we ask victims of domestic violence. Why didn't you just leave? And the simple answer is for children, and young people, it's not that easy. You have no idea the threats or the level of skill

and manipulation and coercion that these groups use. So within the podcast, you'll hear journalists that have serious threats for their safety and that is an adult with a fully developed brain who is not suffering from ill mental health and they're genuinely terrified of this group.

And so, of course, a young person who may have compromising him of them, if they're threatening, you know, to hurt them or their family or release any of those images, of course, you do absolutely anything in your power to stop that from happening. And these images, as soon as they've got one image from that child or that young person, that's their hook in and that child will do anything to stop those from ever being seen because they've been captured in the worst moments of their life. And of course you wouldn't want your parents, your head teacher, your friends,

your family to ever view that content and then it becomes more and more sadistic from that point onwards and you're stuck in a loop which you can't get out of. Joe, I want to turn back to the first case you talked about. That was Cameron Finnegan, a boy really, I suppose, almost a young man. That was the case you came across.

Tell us a little bit more about him and also you got to speak to his mother which I heard yesterday on the podcast. Well, the first time I saw him, he was standing in the dock at the old Bailey. And I guess my initial thoughts were he looked like every other teenage boy that I'd watched coming in and out of my own kitchen. You know, he actually had quite a baby face. But online, he'd created this entirely different persona.

You know, he'd called himself acid. He'd pleaded guilty to some really serious crimes. And I remember looking up at the public gallery and watching his parents walk in. And again, I just thought that, that's me. This could be me. This could be us as a family. It could be any of the parents I've seen at school events. So in terms of his mother, she's a really intelligent, reflective, thoughtful woman who's devastated.

And she and her husband adopted Cameron when he was six years old. And previous to that adoption, Cameron had experienced some really traumatic early years with his birth mother. that was even raised in court. And this undoubtedly impacted on his later life. He struggled with his own mental health. And before he was arrested, he was spending all of his time in his bedroom. And in this next section of audio from the podcast, you're going to hear from his mum. Now, we call her Sarah because his own family have been threatened. And she told me that although he was online and she didn't believe the amount of time he was spending was ideal, she didn't think it was completely abnormal for a boy of his age.

He was gaming. So he was most of the time he's on his computer. So you'd go upstairs and he would be on his computer. He'd quite often have the television on. And that was pretty much about it. Dabbled with Lego for a little while. So he built the car and we got the Lego out of the loft for him. He did say he was talking to people online.

So we knew that he was on messaging platform but didn't know what or. Lots of teenagers spend all their time in their room. You know, that's what they do. We picked back up on the night their home was raided. Cameron, this is old police. Come to the door now. I was about to go into my Italian lesson and we were just quickly trying to eat supper.

Right, subject C, hands on your head. Right, walk you want to kick you. We were completely surrounded and they were shouting and there was a drone overhead, dogs in the garden. So it was a shock, but I thought, a mistake. The first time Sarah heard the name 764 was when Cameron was charged

at Westminster Magistrates Court. You've got no idea that it's well is there. You'd never think, oh, well, I think he must be part of a satanic cult or whatever. I suppose you could say, well, there are the signs of being up all night and being on a different timeline, but loads of kids are up all night, gaming with people all around the world. recording stopped recording in progress and that was

who were calling Sarah the mum of Cameron Finnegan I was so I found her testimony I suppose or her kind of telling her side of the story so compelling while listening to it Joe but you spoke to the police

the UK National Crime Agency I know the FBI and Europol are also looking at this group how seriously are they taking this? I mean, this is kind of a normal family on the outside, but obviously completely not normal of what's happening on the inside. No, I mean, I think what Sarah says they're chimed with me from that point of view, if you've got no idea this world is there. So, you know,

I keep coming back to this point, this full circle of like, how are we as parents meant to stop our children becoming victims or even perpetrators? if no one's actually told us that this is happening in plain sight on the web, on those platforms. So, you know, that's the part that I continually grapple with. We know the FBI are investigating 250 cases as we speak. We know four UK teenagers have been arrested in relation to this. And there's a number of investigations in the UK going on and there have been arrests elsewhere. And there have even been incidents where people have murdered as part of these.

seven, six, four calls. So, I mean, it really is an extreme problem that we need to start learning about. Were you given any advice as a parent on what to do? Yes, I was. And it came from the National Crime Agency. So at that moment where our teenagers are all shutting the bedroom doors on us, be curious, keep asking questions. And they said have non-judgmental conversations. So for me, the way that looked with my own kids was I went to them and said, whatever you do, whatever mistakes you make, I am here for you and, you know, I will never judge for you for it and I'll try and help.

I want to thank both of you, Joe Palmer, presenter of Assume Nothing, creation of a teenage Satanist and also Megan Hinton from the Mary Collins Foundation. All four episodes of the podcast are on BBC Sounds now and I do want to reiterate if you've been personally affected by anything you've heard in this discussion, you can find information and support on the BBC Action Line website. Safety of young people online is the remit of several government departments, education,

health and science, innovation and technology. They did send us a joint statement which says child sexual exploitation and abuse is despicable and has a devastating impact on victims. UK law is clear that child sexual abuse is illegal and social media is no exception. Our online safety act sets out that companies must ensure criminal activity cannot proliferate on their sites and are new or SHH. Relationship, Sex and Health Education Guidance will make sure that all young people understand healthy relationships,

sexual ethics and the dangers of online content. Now, I do also want to let you know that the latest episode of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life is out now. This week, it's all about how to keep love and intimacy alive in long-term relationships, the spark. We do have the writer, Nel Frizzell, and she is joined by two.

experts that look at long-term relationships. Nell's been with her partner for 10 years and his two young children. And she talks about the challenges that there are and also what helps for her to keep the spark alive. Loads of tips. It's available only on BBC Sounds, search for Women's Hour and The Guide to Life. Next time we're going to be talking about how to build emotional resilience in children and young people. I'd love to hear from you on this. What questions do you have or any dilemmas around this particular topic that you'd like our expert guests to answer. To get in touch at Women's Hour, it's 84844.

And social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour or indeed, of course, you can email us through our website. Now, how did you feel when your alarm went off this morning? Dazed and confused or refreshed from that extra hour and a little bit more light? Well, now that the clocks have gone back, we've returned to Greenwich meantime, meaning, when women's well-being, however, may suffer more than men.

That's according to new research that surveyed 10,000 people. Ruth Ogden is Professor of the Psychology of Time at Liverpool John Moore's University and joins me from Manchester. Welcome to Women's Hour, Ruth. Thank you for having me. So what's going on? Why is this affecting women more than men? So the thing that we need to think about is that the clock change in some ways gives us this extra hour.

you would think in autumn time that everybody would feel slightly better. We've all got up slightly earlier. We've all gained a bit of time. But what we know all too well on this program, and I'm sure our women listening will concur, is that women still bear the burden of social reproductive labour. So they are responsible for looking after children more than men. They do more domestic work. And what we tend to see in our research is that despite the fact that the hour change gives women this extra hour, it makes them feel worse. their well-being reduces. And when we asked women to talk to us about how the clock change affected them, what this showed us was that they really struggle with the demand of moving their

children from the old time, so British summertime, onto the new time, Greenwich Mean Time, getting them up earlier, getting them to bed earlier, getting them fed at the right times, all these things add this extra burden to day-to-day life. And day-to-day life is already very, very difficult for lots and lots of people. We, all live incredibly time, poor lives. There are not enough hours in the day. There are too many tasks, too many things to do. And this shift in time seems to be particularly difficult for women because of their caring responsibility. And does that hour really have a significant effect on children or adults? I mean, I'm a parent of three children and I can say that it has

an absolutely devastating effect on my children. Like what is it just that they can't go to at the right time or get up at the right time? So I think it's a combination of different things. What you've got to remember is that we are really biologically tuned clocks. Humans, in my opinion, are just great big clocks. And over periods of evolution and periods of our lives, we've been trained to eat at particular time, sleep at particular times, go to bed at particular times.

What happens with the clock changes, that all of a sudden we have an imposition from the government, which changes that time. And it only shifts it by an hour. But that hour is really important. So all of a sudden, you're going to bed, You're hungry at slightly the wrong time. It's a bit like having jet lag without the joy of going on holiday.

So when it affects everybody, it's not just that it affects children. And it's important to say that when we ask men about their opinion on the clock change, they also didn't like it. Women are particularly affected. Did you ask people in Scotland, I'm wondering? Because for people, obviously, the further north you go, though, they'll be going to work and school in the dark if we stayed on British summertime. Yes, exactly.

So we asked people from across the UK, and we got broadly the same results wherever people were from. And I think that's what's really telling about this research. Regardless of whether we keep the clock change or not, the days will get shorter. The issue with the clock changes is that they suddenly get very shorter. And in that sense, it's just light jet, like you suddenly have this change of time. Time, light will change regardless of what we do, but it's how we adapt to it that's difficult and this overnight change. and I think particularly on a Sunday night when everyone's got to get back into routine on the Monday

makes it very, very difficult. But are you calling for the clock change to be scrapped? I wouldn't go as far as I'm calling for the clock change to be scrapped. What I am suggesting is that we perhaps need to look very carefully at whether this is really benefiting people and why we're doing it. So people often think the clock change was bought about for farming reasons. That's not true. It was brought in to save energy.

And recent analysis shows that, with changing domestic practices, the clock change actually probably costs more energy than it gains. It's also associated with the range of health problems, for example, increases in heart attacks and car accidents are associated with the spring clock change. So maybe it's time that we take a holistic look at the evidence. We talk to the population and say, well, what's the benefit of this? What's the cost of this? And do we really want this anymore? And maybe on a Friday night that it happened? Maybe on a Friday night would be significantly better than on a Sunday night. You know, I have to finish up in the next minute, but we have to give just a moment of time to Professor of the Psychology of Time. That's quite the title.

It is quite. Everybody always says that this is the best academic title. I mean, I've spent my life studying time, why people feel like they have none of it, what that means to their health and well-being. For me, time is the public health concern that we don't talk about enough. And we all need to be thinking about how we can get more time in our lives to do the things that we want. Professor Ruth Ogden, and to mark the clock change, there is a celebration of sleep wellness across the BBC from tips to trends to soothing sounds for tired heads. You can join the conversation, BBC.co.com. UK forward slash what else? Sleep.

That is it for today. Tomorrow a study in Sweden has recommended a D-diagnosis system for adults hoping to have their autism and ADHD diagnosis overturned. And some of them feel there's a stigma about it. Also, how safe are your gel nails? There's new ruling in the EU about one of the chemicals, so we'll talk about that.

And I will also be joined by the comedian Laura Smith. You can find me right here at 10 a.m. tomorrow. I will see you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. The figure's face was featureless, and its entire body was jet black. I'm Danny Robbins, and throughout October,

I will be sharing uncanny listeners, real-life ghost stories. That's one every single day as we count down to the spookiest time of the year. Suddenly, all hell lets loose. The sound of glass smashing, heavy objects being thrown, doors being ripped off hinges. It was coming from the cellar. I looked up and was staggered to see a humongous black triangle floating silently over the rooftop.

Join me as uncanny Countdown to Halloween every day in October on BBC Sounds. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost. Every day, I just stole myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight.

It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love Me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.