Woman's Hour - 27/11/2025

Episode Date: November 27, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Women's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Italy has just voted to make them aside a criminal offence. We'll be finding out more. What does the budget mean for women? We'll have two experts coming in to shed light on that. But also, I'd like to think how you think it's going to impact your life. Or if you have a question, get in touch in the usual way, 84844.

Back in 2001, Casa Pancho realized that there were no black oration dancers performing in any UK ballet companies. So she set up Ballet Black this week, sees the company performing at Sadler's Wells. Kasa will be here to tell us her story. If you had to merge with a member of your family for survival, would you? It's the premise of Grace Walker's dystopian novel, The Merge, where a daughter merges with her mother who has dementia. No spoilers, but we will be getting into the mind of the author here in the studio. And as you've been hearing, designer Pam Hogg has died.

She was utterly distinct and unique. Her designs worn by Rihanna, Kate Moss, Debbie Harry, to name a few. I was looking at her fearless designs online yesterday and made a mental note to myself to be more Pam and be fearless in how I express who I am. So this morning, I want to ask all of you, what's the piece of clothing you own that truly exonerated? expresses who you are. The item or outfit you put on that makes you walk with more confidence, makes you smile inside, that turns heads, makes you stand out or has a joyful memory attached. Is it the sequined catsuit, the PVC dress, the three-piece suit, your grandmother's wedding dress, your 18-hole Doc Martin boots, the clubwear still sitting in your wardrobe since the 80s? Maybe it's your haircut or simply the colour of your hair. Whatever it is, we would really love.

to hear about it this morning. Text me on 84844. You can email the program by going to our website or you can WhatsApp me on 0300-100-444. And of course, if you want to follow us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. And feel free to send me a photograph. I know it's radio, but I'd quite like to see pictures of you

maybe in the 80s in your club wear. That text number 84844. But first, in Italy this week, Parliament has voted unanimously to introduce the crime of femicide, the murder of a woman motivated by gender as a distinct law to be punished with a life sentence. It makes Italy one of the very few places in the world to categorise femicide as a distinct crime.

The BBC's senior reporter Laura Goetzee joins me now to discuss this morning, Laura. Let's start at the beginning. Why did this change in law come about? Well, it changed at this point, guess because it had been in the works for quite a long time. There have been a number of genocide cases in Italy that have really shaken public opinion. And as you said, earlier this week, MPs ratified this law that now introduces the crime of femicide as a crime that's punishable by life in prison.

I have to say it's rare for Italian lawmakers across the political spectrum these days to agree on anything. So the fact that it passed, you know, the last step and is now legislation. and it is remarkable. Yeah, so symbolically the bill was approved on Tuesday, and it was symbolic because it was done on a day dedicated to the elimination of violence against women worldwide. But as you mentioned there,

there's been widespread public outcry in Italy for the past couple of years and debate about the causes of violence against women in Italy's very patriarchal culture. So tell us more, what's been happening? Where did this all stem from? So there was one specific case that I think resonated with Italians more so

than others that I've certainly that I've followed or that I, you know, heard about. And it was a murder of this 22-year-old young woman called Julia Chiquotin by her ex-boyfriend, also in his early 20s. There were both students in the Venice province. And basically the story went that she broke up with him and he was unhappy about that.

And one night he took her out shopping and she never came back. and then he went on the run. Her body was found a couple of days later in Woodland, and he was tracked down in Germany some days later as well and admitted to the murder. And apart from the case itself, which really shook public opinion,

I think what really made people think was everything that came out after because her family decided to publish her diaries and voice notes that she had sent to friends, in which she could really feel her anguish because she didn't want to hurt him. She didn't want to, you know, she'd already broken up with him. She didn't want to hurt him further.

And she just didn't know how to let go of this burden. And it was this kind of entrenched sense of responsibility that she felt for his well-being while he was hounding her and stalking her. And all of these details really contributed to keeping her case in the headlines. And to, you know, it's, I think, in a substantial way, it's led to this law. And that came from her family. Julia Cheketeen's sister Elena and dad Gino and they've since been campaigning

Elena said at the time I'm quoting here don't hold a minute of silence for Julia burn everything we need a cultural revolution to ensure that Julia's case is the last she also said that the murderer was not a monster but the healthy son of a deeply patriarchal society is Italy still tell me more about

this patriarchal society and how much that is part of the problem Well, I think it depends what you define a patriarchal society as. I mean, in Italy, in general, gender roles can still be quite rooted. There's big issues that female representation in the workplace is still quite low. And certainly a lot of women drop out of the workplace after having children. So I think these things contribute to giving a certain, maybe a certain patriarchal flavour still to the structure of Italian society. But I spoke about this exactly with Gino Tricotino, Chiquetino, Julia's father, last year.

And we talked about this concept of the patriarchy because he was also saying it's quite, it sounds like quite a data concept almost. And I think even at the time, a lot of Italians were saying like, you know, the patriarchy is just not something, you know, that happens elsewhere. It's not, it's not a kind of modern European problem anymore. But anyway, when I put it to him, he told me that in Italy, in his view, in Italy, to this thing. day, if you're a man, you're part of a system that teaches you that you're worth more than women. So that, the way it trickles down is that it means that if you're in a relationship, everything needs to go through you. And so a patriarch can't be told, I don't love you anymore because that goes against his sense of ownership. And you said you interviewed him

last year. Yes. How difficult was that? Well, it was, it was very difficult because it came about a year after his daughter's murder and it came around the time that her murderer was sentenced to life in jail so it was an emotional time but he had a lot to say and he's been very engaged and he's trying to I think make something out of this horrific life-changing thing that's happened to him well for the last two years they've kept it in the public eye and now we've got to this point in Italy where they've made femicide illegal so let's try to understand what that means because there was an expert commission that examined 211 recent murder cases of women for common characteristics before they drafted this

femicide law. So why is femicide different from murder? How is it distinct? Well, I guess this is exactly what they're trying to nail down. It's this idea that femicide is a murder that occurs because the victim is a woman. So because of of her role as a woman and because the murderer wants to dominate or control or subjugate the woman in one

way or the other or limit her individual freedoms. So one of the criticisms that have been moved to this law actually is exactly that that there's almost no point in dividing or creating a division between murder and famine and in fact most countries, including

the UK, don't have a legal definition of feminicide. They have manslaughter or homicide. But I think the idea in Italy about this law is exactly, it's to try and raise awareness of the problem, to try and quantify it as well, because otherwise it's very difficult to keep track of the number of victims of famicide if there's no clear way to count them in the first place. I understand there's also stronger measures being introduced against other gender-based crimes, including stalking and revenge porn. Tell us about that. Yeah, so the Prime Minister, Georgia Meloni, said this week, and she has said it before, that she's, her

government is doubling funding for anti-violent centres, shelters, they're promoting an emergency hotline, which, by the way, after Julia's murder, a couple of years ago, I think, saw an increase of 60% in terms of the calls that they were receiving. So something is moving, I guess. And, you know, the Prime Minister has said there's concrete steps forward, but then other provisions like, you know, better education in schools is sometimes they're still push back on that because often it's got to do with sort of sexual education and in certain quarters that's not always accepted. There have been critics of the new law.

What have they been saying? So I think it often comes down to this education issue, doesn't it? That the change is not going to come through the legal system, but it's going to come through schools. And another thing that campaigners have been saying, which I do think is quite interesting, is that apart from better education, there should also be better training for police and prosecutors to deal with domestic abuse, because we know that that's often how the worst violence begins. And it's also a matter of telling law enforcement what to do if they come across a case of a woman who goes to them for help and to take it seriously

from the beginning, not from when it's way too late. The vote to pass the law was passed this week. So when will it come into law? Well, this was just the last step. It's already been approved by the Senate. It was approved by the Senate earlier this year. So it's now part of the legislation. Laura Gozy, thank you so much for coming in to shed light on that this morning.

84844 is the number to text. Lots of you getting in touch about the item of clothing that makes you express yourself most freely. Someone has said, my red military-style dachs coat. Women have run after me down the street to admire it. And the best bit, I bought it by my bestie from 18 pounds from a charity shop, ticks all my boxes. Oh, I am totally with you there. When it's from a charity shop, even better.

So satisfying. Someone else said, I feel myself when I dress as Patsy Stone from Ab-Fab. And someone else has said, my favourite wedding outfit as a guest, a bright pink fascinator. I caught the park and ride bus to Cambridge. everyone on the bus cheered and wished as well as we got off. I felt like a star. Keep them coming in.

Now, this morning, the Chancellor Rachel Reeves defended her budget with our colleagues on the Today program. A budget, she says, is needed to tackle the cost of living crisis and bringing in a much better deal for children with the scrapping of the two child benefits. I said when I became Chancellor that I would judge my time in office as success if ordinary kids from working class backgrounds live more fulfilling lives. And I said that as the first female chancellor of the exchequer, I wanted to ensure that we close the gender pay gap and ensure that women get the opportunities that they rightfully deserve. And that's why we're putting money into childcare. And it's why yesterday I got rid of what is called the rape clause in the two child limit, where women had to prove that a child was born non-consensually to get support from the government.

That was wrong. I did away with it yesterday. proud of my budget. The Financial Times has said this budget exposed Labor to charges of being high welfare and high tax and it's come under much criticism with Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davy saying Rachel Roos is now taxing ordinary people to record levels while Shadow Chancellor Samel Stride has said that Labor has broken its manifesto promise of not raising taxes. It's been the most widely leaked and widely anticipated budget in years but how does this work for women? Well to discuss this, I'm joined by Sarah Pennell's consumer finance specialist with the Royal London Pensions

and Investment Company and Erin Mansell from the feminist economics group, the women's budget. Welcome to both of you. Well, we heard the Chancellor saying the clip that she wanted to redress the gender pay gap. Do you think the budget addresses that? Let's start with you, Erin. I think there were some very positive measures for women in the budget. So we heard the Chancellor there talking about the lifting of the two child limit on benefits. And that's, you know, that policy has been in place since kind of the austerity policies were implemented and has had a huge impact on child poverty. You know, we know that lifting this limit is going to lift around close to half a million

children out of poverty. And we know from our work that children's poverty is very closely linked to women's poverty. So, you know, we know that women through the cost of living crisis have skipped meals to feed their own children, they have got into personal debt for sort of day-to-day costs. So this is a really positive move. We really welcome the kind of lifting of this and it's a kind of hard for battle and lots of campaigners and organisations have been making the case. And there is, you know, there's a clear moral case and we heard there about the rape clause which is, was, you know, abhorrent that

there was this kind of realisation at some point in that policy that, There are some children who are not born as a result of a consensual sexual relationship. And so to kind of then put the onus on women to prove that they were raped in order to access this benefit that we as a country have said, this is what we think is needed for children to live on. This is, you know, for a kind of minimum standard of living. And then to sort of arbitrarily say, but if there's three or more in a family, you're not allowed to have it unless you were raped. It's just, you know, it's... And there's been a lot of campaigning around that.

Yeah, a lot of campaigning. and I think, you know, it's also people kind of make these judgments, but actually all of us rely on there being a social security system. Most of us pay into it through national insurance contributions, and it's there for us when we need it. People's plans change or, you know, things don't go to plan. They have a disabled child and have to take time out of work or quit work completely unexpectedly, and that changes their circumstances.

There's all kinds of reasons, a family breakdown, you know, or a health condition they weren't. expecting. So, you know, it's in all of our interests that this system works. If you're listening to this and want to share with me how the budget is going to impact your lives, or if you indeed you've got a question for either Erin or Sarah, why don't you get in touch, 844, and if you get in touch in time, I can put it to them. But Sarah, the Institute of Fiscal Studies says, but scrapping this limit could cost £3.6 billion a year. Yes, so the Chancellor said that this was going to be fully funded from changes to gambling tax,

so specifically sort of targeted at online casinos and sort of remote betting, but also changes to the motability scheme so that people won't be able to buy the most expensive cars through that scheme, but also reducing fraud, which is one of those things that obviously we won't know, I think, until we have the benefit of hindsight, how effective that's been. But I think just on your original question about closing the gender gap from women, one of the other measures that was mentioned, which is not specifically targeted at women, but that will disproportionately benefit them, is the rise in the national living wage. Because that will be going up from £12.21 an hour, as it currently is £12, 71 an hour.

And we know that more women than men work in the caring sector, services, hospitality, retail, all those areas that for whatever reason tend to pay quite a proportion of their workers' low wages. And one other measure as well, which we may be coming on to later, but the rise in the state pension, which was confirmed. And our data shows that twice as many women as men say the state pension, is their only income in retirement. So it's not a policy that's specifically aimed at women, but it will help to close that gap in retirement a little bit at least.

Okay, we are going to let's talk about, we will talk about wages, we'll talk about pensions, so we'll talk about all three things that you've brought up. So to you, Sarah, we've heard what Erin has had to say about it, but this aspect of this onerous thing that was dubbed the rape clause, this is where you get an exemption from the second child benefit cap if you can prove the child was conceived non-consensually. Lots of campaigning around that. There was, as Erin said, I mean, this policy was introduced in 2017

and there was a lot of campaigning at the time about this clause because as Erin rightly said, you know, for a woman to have to prove that she was raped or that the sex was non-consensual in order to claim a benefit for a child that was born as a result, I mean, is abhorrent. So the coalition to end violence against women and girls, girls, women's aid, but also things like child poverty action group, debt charities like step change, I mean, a lot of them campaigned against it. And in some ways, I think it is extraordinary

to think that this was actually still, you know, in 2025, we still had this clause. I mean, by doing a way with the two child limit on benefit, which will affect people, because it's quite confusing terminology, so it will affect people who are claiming universal credit or tax credits. It's not to do with child benefit itself. But that then abolishes the right. rape clause, because if you don't have that cap, you don't have to prove that your third or subsequent child was born as a result of rape. But just one of the things, within that clause, I mean, reading through some of the sort of the detail around it, if you had a child who was a result of non-consensual sex, but then you carried on living with your partner,

then that didn't count. You know, that didn't count. You couldn't claim for that child. So there are all these things, and we know that relationships and abusive ones can be quite complex. So I think there will be lots of organisations that are very pleased that this has been abolished. And as I mentioned, that figure of £3.6 billion a year, that's the long-term cost of scrapping it. Where's that money going to be found? I mean, I think it's also useful to just zoom out and recognise that child poverty also costs us all. And so because, you know, of the impact on children's education, you know, hungry children find it harder to learn, because of the impact then on kind of the labour market, but also actually putting money in people's pockets, particularly

the poorest households, they're more likely to spend that money in the local, the real economy. So it actually pays us. And there's been different kind of analyses, but the New Economics Foundation estimated that I think it would also save taxpayers about $3.2 billion. So although we kind of do this, like we have to cost this policy and it's going to, but it's also a saving. Poverty costs us. And so I would argue that, yeah, that, you know, there were there were lots of changes in this budget, including kind of $26 billion in tax rises. And so to kind of argue about this small amount feels, you know, it's kind of getting it out of proportion. So let's move on to wages.

I'll stay with your own because there've been some changes announced to the minimum wage and the national living wage. Talk us through those and how they might affect women. Yeah, so as Sarah said, we saw uplifts that were kind of confirming that the Chancellor would adopt the recommendations from the low pay commission. And so we've seen increases to both the living wage, which is the minimum wage for most people and the national wage, which is for kind of, I think it's 18 to 20 year olds. And we know that women make up the majority of those who are earning minimum wage. And so this will disproportionately kind of positively impact women. What we haven't quite seen yet is the confirmations as to how budgets will change so that, for example, to the early education in child care sector, social care. Also, you know, these are sectors where women disproportionately work and whether there's additional budget for those services so that they can account for those increased costs.

And what we know from kind of colleagues working in early education and childcare is that it's not just those kind of lowest, those on the lowest pay, but also that has an impact on everyone else because it's generally a low paid sector. So your manager, then you kind of need to uplift their pay. So, you know, it's good news. and what we saw in the budget was also these kind of penciled in cuts to departmental budgets towards the end of the Parliament, which is a worry. We need to see actually higher investment in those services. Sarah, what about tax rises that have been hugely criticised? How are these going to impact working women?

Well, as you say, the Chancellor announced that the tax thresholds would remain frozen for another three years. Now, this will affect everybody who's, well, millions of people, not as everybody, but it will mean there will be more people paying tax who previously haven't paid tax and more people paying tax at a higher rate who previously were not higher rate taxpayers. And the government's own figures, I think, showed that there was about a 40% increase in higher rate taxpayers between 2021 when these thresholds were first frozen in 2024-25. We know that one area that's caused some concern is people who are on the state pension paying tax.

Now, actually, we've done again some research into this, and we find that not surprisingly few women and men who are retired pay tax because they have such lower pensions. So, again, our data shows women have on average £39,000 saved in a pension. Men on average have $92,000, so over double. It's quite a stark difference. Having said that, those, for women who are working, more of their pay, as they start to get pay increase, and we just heard from Erin there about the rise as the national living wage and minimum wage, they will lose more of that in tax, or they will pay more.

of that in tax because the threshold isn't rising. So it will affect more people. I mean, it will mean that people who pay higher rate tax already or people who move into the additional rate tax threshold, they will be affected more. They will have a higher tax bill. And again, that does tend to be men. I mean, it's not only, you know, women are higher rate taxpayers as well,

but a bigger proportion of those are men. But there's no doubt that women can't escape this. There were fears there might have been changes to pensions and the triple lock, but what's actually happened? Well, the Chancellor confirmed that the triple lock is staying, so that means a rise in the full new state pension, which you get if you reach state pension age after 2016, of £575 a year. Now, that brings it within a whisper of the personal allowance from April 2020, from next year from April 2026. But if you get the full new state pension, you will still not have to pay tax on that if you have no other income. and if you retired or reached state pension age before then,

then it's going up by £440 a year. And again, that will, sadly, in a way, benefit women more because our data shows that one in six women have the state pension alone, one in 12 men. Now, there is obviously a much bigger story, which possibly is another programme, but about the kind of life that women retire into. But there is no doubt the fact that the state pension has risen

quite substantially over the last few years because of the triple lock, particularly a couple of years, ago when it was using the inflation rate, which at the time was 10.1%. I mean, if you look back at what the pension was a number of years ago and what people are getting now and the fact that more women live on it on its own or with just a small other pension, that will definitely help. And changes to ISAs. How much can you now save in an ISA or a stocks and shares ISA? And can you explain those and whether women might be disproportionately affected and how

they might be? Well, so there's no change to the overall ISA limit. so you can still save or invest up to £20,000 in any one tax year. But the change that Rachel Reeves announced, which was very widely flagged, I think, was there will be a reduction in the amount that you can put in cash. So that will be capped at £12,000 a year. Now, this is really designed to encourage people to invest rather than necessarily to raise tax because if you want to keep cash, your money in cash and not pay tax,

you can actually earn up to £1,000 a year in interest tax free of your basic taxpayer, 500 pounds of your higher rate taxpayer. So in today's money, you can have sort of, you know, 20,000 pounds in tax, in savings or 40,000 pounds of your basic rate and still not pay tax. I think, again, so we've done a lot of research on this. We find that similar number of women and men have cash isis, two thirds of stocks and shares, ice the holders are men, one third of women. And when you unpack why people don't invest, it's not, it's not about, well, I can't put my money in cash, so I'll invest. It's about, it's about. fear of not understanding the product.

Now, there is another piece of work that was also confirmed in the budget, but we knew it's going on. And it will mean that there's more targeted guidance for people who either can't afford financial advice or choose not to take it. And I think that will help because it will tell people what they can do. It won't say this is a product for you, but it will say these are things to think about. And if you're in this situation, maybe consider this.

And that's something I think that's been missing from the financial landscape for many years. And Darren, what about the general cost of living? What impact will this budget have on that? Yeah, so we did see some positive announcements. So there would be a reduction in energy bills. There was a freeze on kind of rail fares, which I think, you know, we know that women tend to use public transport more than men. And we also know, you know, with the energy bills that single-parent households in particular

have struggled during this cost of living crisis. And, you know, women make up the majority of those who had those single-parent households. So there were some positive moves in there. I think what we haven't seen is a kind of a more ambitious, a kind of level of investment in our public services. And we're seeing kind of, you know, there weren't really any new announcements of funding. There was, there were, we did see, you know,

because of kind of her own fiscal rules, that the chance was under pressure to potentially cut public spending. So we're pleased that she didn't do that. But we haven't seen the kind of levels. you know, we, since the kind of austerity years and then with the pandemic and so on, you know, people are still struggling to kind of get a GP's appointment or to access a childcare place. And all of these things add to the general sense and people's experience of the economy and the sort of overall costs that they're experiencing.

So although there were some welcome kind of changes that will help people, you know, a little bit, I think in general kind of there wasn't the level of, the scale of ambition we need to kind of really address the challenges that people are experiencing. Sarah here. Yeah, I mean, I would agree. There is just one thing I want to mention, which is a very little known account, which is a government account,

is called a Help to Save account, which was scheduled to be abolished in 2027. And it's aimed at people who are on a low income, but the government tops it up by 50%. So you can save up to £50 a month over four years, and the government will top it up by 50%. Now, in the budget, it was announced that it would be made permanent from April 2028,

but it would also be extended to carers and parents on universal credit, which currently is about 3 million people who are eligible for it, about half a million have it. It'll be extended to another one and a half. It's one of those things that not many people know about. It's a government account, but you do get this 50% top-up on a limited amount, and it could make a real difference.

Excellent. Good advice. Thank you so much, Sarah and Erin coming in to speak to us about that. Write it down, help to save. Thank you so much. Now, Pam Hogg, the legendary Scottish fashion designer known for eccentric and outlandish designs has died. She dressed everyone from Rihanna to Bjork to Lady Gaga, to name a few. Her family said in a statement that the trailblazing designer's creative spirit

and body of work has touched the lives of many tributes to Hogg quickly started to pour in across social media. Broadcaster Fern Cotton wrote on Instagram, Pam, oh Pam, what a joy it was to know you, I'll miss you. Pam, skin from skunk canancy posted, this was classic Pam. I was about to go on stage to present her

with a well-deserved icon award and she decided to fix a seam in her design two minutes before the big moments. As usual, the look was incredible even though every time I sat down

I found a new pin up my butt. Also classic Pam. Pam was indeed an icon but more than that she was a mad, crazy, gorgeous human and I loved her. Well, journalist Kate Hutchinson joins me now because Kate, welcome.

You actually got to interview Pam. I got to interview Pam. after years of asking her to come and chat to me, we finally sat down for a talk series last year. And I also booked her to DJ at the Tate Modern in the Turbine Hall. And she played to hundreds and hundreds of people, her kind of amazing superstar DJ moment. I mean, she was really talented across so many different art forms.

What a wonderful woman. Why were you so desperate to interview her? Why was she the one? Oh, she, for me, just represent. presents everything that I love about that kind of maverick, bohemian spirit. I mean, she's been called Britain's most provocative designer, and that in itself, you know, is incredibly exciting. Her own Instagram biography, she calls herself a mischief maker. And I'm always drawn to those people with that sort of maverick rock and roll spirit.

She told her how it was, and she always, she had this incredible kind of uncompromising DIY vision. I think it's really important to. talk about her skill as a self-taught fashion designer. She made these incredibly intricate pieces. I think sometimes they're up to 500 pieces that she would put together like a jigsaw. She produced all of her garments herself with the help of a few students before each show. And so it was incredibly meticulous, incredibly sort of DIY way of working. And her workmanship was exquisite. I think Bella Freud said that she had the exquisite workmanship worthy of a couture house and it was just her mainly on her own. So she was really visionary.

Well, you mentioned at the beginning that you got her to DJ at one of your events at the Turban Hall. I wish I'd been there. It sounds like it would have been incredible because, yes, she had this iconic look but music and club culture was also so important. She was at the intersection of the two worlds, wasn't she? Can you tell us a bit more about that? He was right at the cold face of every exciting kind of cultural movement. You know, she moved between nightlife, art, fashion, and like you said, music. I mean, you know, she dressed uncompromising fearless women in rock and roll from skin from Skankhamansy. You mentioned Shirley Manson.

You know, everybody wanted to be dressed by Pam. But she was also a musician herself. She was in one of the first acid house bands, the Garden of Eden, music which you can find online. She was also in a band called Dole, who went on tour with Debbie Harry in the 90s, which was in this period where she sort of paused fashion for a moment and had this kind of rock and roll experience herself. And she was also a Blitz kid. I think that's a really important mention.

The Blitz being the really legendary and very short-lived party in the 80s in London, out of which the new Romantics movement came. And famously, to get in through the door past Steve Strange, who ran the club, had to have an amazing look. So Pam's, you know, although she was already interested in fashion, I think that was the real kind of rocket for what she decided to do. You know, the more outlandish look you could create, the more chance you had of getting in. What do we make of the fact that she didn't ever want to reveal her age? Well, you know, more power to her. I think that's such the thing that, you know, women are held back by, are judged by. And she, I also think not revealing her

just allowed her even more to become more timeless and to be able to move through all of these different scenes. And so, and including, you know, when she came back in the mid-2000s, when she returned to the catwalk, you know, she just, her outfits felt as fresh as ever, you know. What would she like when you interviewed her? How was the experience? Just so wonderful. And she's just so full of energy and life. She was also incredibly kind of empathetic. She was outraged by what was going on in the world. She's always been really politically minded and she always speaks her mind. She's totally unfiltered. So she's funny and brilliant and unfiltered and exactly the sort of person that you want to spend an

evening with. Yeah, I wish I had. I read this great stuff. I've been reading lots about one story that she went to, I think it was Kate Moss's birthday party in the Cotswolds. I'm totally paraphrasing, but she had a Bowie-inspired outfit on and when she came to the door, Kate took off her caturedress and swapped and instantly wanted to wear. what, the ultimate validation. Thank you so much, Kate, for talking to us about Pam Hogg. Thank you. And lots of you getting in touch to tell me about the item of clothing that makes you feel as though you can express yourself freely. I'm going to read a few of these out because there's lots coming in. I love my beautifully knitted poncho from Madeira. It looks amazing over any outfit with jeans or a summary dress. I'm currently wearing it open pajamas. Love it.

Working from home and recovering from flu. Get well soon. It looks amazing. No one knows I'm still in my comfy tartan PJs. It's for literally any occasion. No one, apart from all of us. My signature looks, says someone, my hair. It tickles me when women stand in front of me, putting their grey hairs down. I stand proud with my long silver locks and big grin and ask, what's wrong with grey hair. I have more compliments about my hair since coming out as grey, as a greyhead person than ever in my life.

I love everything it represents and you have sent me a beautiful photograph. And yes, indeed, your grey long locks are still. stunning. Another one here. Two years ago, I was looking for Christmas presents for other people, but found one for myself. A big knee-high-length coat in extravagant, blonde faux fur. Love at first sight. It's my comfort blanket. And I know that whatever I look like, when winter reddens my nose, the coat still looks fabulous. And that's from Julia. Thoroughly approve of going out shopping for other people and purchasing for yourself. Now to my next guest, Casa Pancho. She founded Ballet Black. in 2001 when she was just 21, and it was in response to the fact that no black or Asian women were performing in any of the UK's ballet companies.

Well, this week, Ballet Black concluded their UK tour of Shadows at London's Sadler's Wells. The Double Bill features Cass's adaptation of a Yinka Braithwaite's international best-selling novel, My Sister, The Serial Killer, and also includes a piece called A Shadow Work, which explores the practice of shadow work, a technique that choreographer Chanel de Silva encountered when going through therapy.

Kasa, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Thanks for having me. You've commissioned so many choreographers over the years, but you rarely make work for the company yourself. So why did you want to direct my sister, the serial killer? Aynka Bothwaite, by the way, was on Woman's Hour. Very recently, yes. Her new book.

Absolutely. Which I asked her if I could turn into a ballet before reading it, and she said it's way too complicated. You won't be able to. I think you will. I think I could. Well, I loved the book And I thought for quite a while I need to find someone that can choreograph it for me

But I realised that I loved it so much I wouldn't really be able to hand over the story to someone else I really wanted to do it myself And that is how I came to choreograph and adapt it Why did you want to tell this specific story through dance So for people who haven't read it I know lots of our listeners will know about it My sister, the Syracat, very different from traditional ballet stories.

The novel starts with a murder, which Corridae, a nurse living in Lagos, Nigeria has to clean up. And it isn't for the first time. And it's her sister Ayola that's killed a man. Correct. So I love ballet, but I do not love the narratives of women being saved every 10 minutes by some dippy bloke. I don't like the idea of women being cursed and turned into swans or killing themselves because the guy doesn't love them. and this book, although the deeper story does start with some abuse from their father, the rest of the book is just these women taking care of themselves

and no harm is inflicted on them. The only harm, unfortunately, comes to the men in Ayula's life. And I really enjoyed the idea that they look after themselves. Whether they're doing right or wrong, that's for the audience to decide, but they take care of each other and themselves. How do you approach portraying jealousy, loyalty, resentment, protectiveness between women on stage and how much fun did you have choreographing this? I had so much fun. It's very challenging because what I really wanted to do was show the sisters' relationship and I don't have a sister and none of the dancers in the main cast have sisters. So we really had to lean on our colleagues that did and talk about the sort of how you can go from being like the,

worst of enemies and then to best friends who will defend each other no matter what, because you have that sisterly bond. Second on the bill is a shadow work by Brooklyn-born choreographer Chanel de Silva, which explores this profound technique she encountered when she was going through therapy called shadow work. Tell me about that. Well, when she brought the idea to me, I thought, I don't know if that sounds very heavy. And the way she spoke about it was in a very American way, which is about, you know, self-discovery and journeys, and I thought, I'm not sure if our British audience is going

to love that, but she said, just bear with me. So I did, because I knew she was a brilliant choreographer. And what she has created is a ballet of vignettes of moments of her own life. So the sudden passing of her mother when she was in her 20s, her father abandoning their family. And she has turned it into a really beautiful, moving piece of work. And actually, it sits very well with the serial killer story. Yeah, how? Because she opens a show with her piece And you really see the skill of the dancers

You feel so many emotions And it allows, I think it allows the audience To really reflect on their own experiences Then after the interval you come back And we get a little darker But much funnier, I hope And it means that we can just go home on a high You started ballet black 24 years ago

Your debut at Saddle as well That's a prestigious Saddles Wells. What does this moment mean? I had really reflected on it until this week, because we've done the Royal Opera House, we've done the Barbican, but there's something quite iconic about Sadler's Wells as a dance venue.

So obviously the Royal Opera House is ballet, but Sadler's Wells brings in companies from around the globe, and there's something very special for us to be part of that history now that Saddlers Wells has. When I knew you were coming on, Kestler's, I thought, I need to get into the head of this 21-year-old because, oh, we love it. We love a strong-minded woman on Woman's Hour. What did that fire in you come from to want to change the landscape of the industry?

Tell me what you saw around you. What I saw around me was entirely pale. And being a mixed-race student with a father from Trinidad and a mother from Britain, But looking kind of Italian or Indian or non-descript, culturally ambiguous. Which can be a superpower, by the way. It is my superpower here because I was able to hear comments from teachers and people in the dance world about what they thought black people could and could not do in ballet, what they thought black and Asian people would like or not like. And people would speak very freely in front of me before knowing that actually. I have Caribbean. 50% of my family is from the Caribbean.

And that made me realize I look like this. If I looked any darker, would I have progressed any further in ballet having heard those kinds of comments? Definitely not. Probably would have quit. So there was a colour bar? A huge colour bar. That is not gone today. Okay. We'll get to that. But why does it exist? What's the thought process behind? I mean ballet came out of, you know, Europe.

European royalty, but that was so long ago that I think that when I hear that as an excuse as to why it's not culturally relevant to anyone else, I don't really believe it, because whose culture is fairies and witches and, you know, whose actual lineage, who comes from fairies, nobody. So I think there are, it's a combination of it being perceived as a very elite art form where in fact when you start ballet you normally start in a church hall somewhere so there's nothing less elite than going to a church hall

and hanging on to the back of a chair as a ballet bar and then there are all these racial stereotypes around black people particularly black women about being aggressive, angry too strong to be the kind of frail character in a ballet like Giselle for example or you know so I think all these things came together

there's historic accounts of students being accepted into very prestigious ballet schools in this country and told we'll train you but you'll never join the company that's associated with this school and you know these things have a lasting legacy and a lasting impact you have had your own ballet school to kind of readdress to look at this problem to address it 24 years later and post black lives matter and you're saying not much has changed or has things changed I think the thing that forced the conversation was the murder of George Floyd and that we were all stuck at home watching it because of COVID.

And I think had we not, we would have moved past it because we've seen these events throughout history and it hasn't had a global effect. The positive, if there can be a positive to that, is that it forced a conversation that everybody felt like they had to participate in. The Black Squares on Instagram, the pledges to do more. and then as we moved forward in time

some people who were very genuine about it stayed the course and others fell away so we are talking about it more now but we've been here for a very very long time what challenges remain I think there is still a colour bar for black women in particular I think the darker the skin the more

stereotypes are associated to that person. So what's ballet black going to continue to do? What are your plans for the future? Well, we're going to continue to show you. You don't have to be a certain colour to be great at ballet. You just have to be great at ballet. And we do that by performing through our school. We tour the country.

And there is no colour bar within our company. So if you're black, Asian, mixed race, very dark, very light, you'll be cast because you're amazing. And what are your audiences like? They are incredibly diverse, particularly when we're in a diverse area like London. And I think it is very safe to say it is not your typical ballet audience. And we often get people whose first time visit to a ballet is to a ballet black show. Casapancho, continue your good work.

Thank you for coming in to speak to me. And Shadows is showing Saddle as Wales in London until the 29th of November. So we haven't got long. No, you don't. Come and see it. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. 848.

844 is the text number. Now, I'm joined by Grace Walker. She's the author of a new speculative dystopian novel, The Merge. It's set us a time when the Earth's resources have been pushed to breaking points, and there's a new controversial procedure in which two people's consciousnesses can be combined to exist in one body. Laurie is 65 and living with Alzheimer's. Her daughter, Amelia, a once fiery and strong-willed activist,

signs them up to take part in the world's first experimental, merging process. They're joined by a group of other participants and when they move into the village, a luxurious rehabilitation centre, they quickly begin to question whether everything is really as it seems. Grace sounds terrifying. Yes. Where did the, yes, it is, it is. First all, congratulations. Thank you so much. Where did the premise? What did the idea come from? Well, it didn't start off terrifying at all. It was actually, it came from a conversation with my partner about marriage and love because we're very much at that age where everyone around us is getting married and making that commitment. And I said to him, this is incredible that

everyone is still going through with this in today's society when we know all the statistics around divorce and people are still willing to make that huge commitment to love one person forever. And I just said, do you think if divorce wasn't an option at all, would people still go through with it and I decided ultimately probably yes because you could live your separate lives despite being divorced and so I took it a step further and I said well what if marriage meant literally being bound together like having to go through every aspect of life together would people still go through with that and it was from there that the merge was born because I could not stop thinking about what it would be like to be so connected to someone 24-7 so there are four pairs

who are due to merge to become what's called combines. Who are they briefly? Okay, so we have the pair who the story follows, who are Laurie, who has early onset Alzheimer's and her daughter Amelia, who is desperate to keep her mum's memories and her mum as herself as she knows her alive. And then we have two brothers, so we have Noah, who is a teenager with terminal cancer, and his younger brother who is desperate to save his brother

and do anything he can to keep his brother with him. We then have probably the most controversial pair who are Jay and Lara, and they are father and daughter. And Lara is a recovering addict, and Jay just wants to keep her safe, but Lara can't think of anything worse than merging with Jay. So that's a really tense situation.

And then finally we have Ben and Annie, who are due to become parents for the first time, and they believe that the only way that they can, can bring a child into this world ethically is to merge so that they're not adding to the population while starting their family. So interesting. Well, as you mentioned, the main protagonist are Amelia and her mother Laurie. Let's hear a reading from the audiobook. This morning, I woke to find her standing over me, notebook in hand. It's not right, she said. This merging is an ethical. You should live in the body you're born in and leave well enough alone. I tried to hide

under the duvet, but she lifted it off me. I'm serious, Amelia. I've been reading my notes and it's all so incredibly sad. These people need help. That poor girl battling addiction, she needs a rehabilitation centre, not to blend her mind with someone else. And what about us, Amelia? Why must we be the first? Why can't we let someone else with Alzheimer's do this ghastly experiment and see how they get on. Someone who is absolutely certain this is what they want. So tell me about the relationship between Amelia and her mother Laurie and why you chose to look at their relationship through the lens of dementia. Well, so they are mother and daughter and I just find that is such a universal bond and something that, what everyone can relate to in some aspect, having a mother, and many

women can relate to being a mother. And I just thought it was a fascinating lens to explore love, grief and sacrifice through. And with Alzheimer's, it actually wasn't the angle I initially was going into the book with. I started writing from the point of view of Noah and Lucas. And the more time I spent with Laurie and Amelia in the sessions, I kept being drawn to them. And I think there were a number of reasons for that. But I think with the Alzheimer's, it was so interesting to me how the loss of self and that

erosion of memory in Alzheimer's was mirrored with the merging process and how once people do merge, they also lose aspects of themselves. And I thought it just mirrored each other really nicely. And there was obviously conflicts and quite a bit of a ick in the merging of memories as well. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. It's a really, I mean, it's a terrible thing to have to do, especially with your mum. But I do think that that is a relationship that you would give that a sacrifice for you you would do anything to keep your mum with you well that's the whole question isn't it so fascinating and another pair of benjamin and annie in in the first of this kind of combine it that they're having a baby you want why did you want to include that

storyline and you weren't you didn't have a baby whilst you're writing the book but you were pregnant whilst you were editing so did that actually change the way you've you looked at the work yeah absolutely it's been quite transformative in terms of becoming a mum and now that the books published. Congratulations. Thank you. Birth two things. Yes, my two babies are out in the world.

No, it was really interesting. I think when I started writing about Ben and Annie, I was doing it from a perspective of, you know, feeling I certainly felt I want to start a family, but also there is an element of guilt there to bring someone into this world that isn't really being looked after. And I think it's quite a common feeling that people are having these days. And I just thought it was something that people might consider. If you were able to

start a family but not actually add to the population, maybe people would go through with that. You're an English teacher. Yes. And this dystopian novel was inspired by your love of the genre. Tell me about your passion for reading. Gosh, well, yes, I've always loved dystopian fiction. I think ever since I was a child, I've always been drawn to books that kind of, turn things on their head and you have to think about the world in a new way I remember as a child discovering Mallory Blackman and Nauts and Crossers

and just that changing my reading habits from there and as a teacher I just really try and instill that love of reading to children because I think it just opens your world What do you feel the role of dystopian fiction is in particular? Well I think the best kind of dystopian fiction it reflects current anxieties. I don't think it's about predicting the future in any sense.

I think it's about taking what we're already slightly concerned about and making that a reality, but in a grander sense. Now, Grace, you are quite an impressive woman because this is your first novel that's been published, but not the first novel that you've written. You've got three that you've written, but where are they? They are.

They are on my laptop. I hope they're still on my laptop I'm not too sure but yes so this is book number four yes and the three how many years what's been the process how many years has it taken for you to get to the point of having a book published it's been

seven years and it's been all consuming I think just because I love it so much and I find time to write every day I mean it's harder now with a baby of course but up until this point I've carved out time no matter how busy workers or anything like that I think it's my energizer.

When? In the very early hours of the morning. Are you part of this 4.38? I was. Where are you? Can you shed some light on this? Because I see this pop up on my Instagram and the poet Selina Godden is part of this club. Gosh, yeah.

Well, I can't believe I'm part of it because I'm not a morning person at all. But it was really the only time I could write. And so I was teaching, I was going to school about 7.30 and then leaving at about 5.36. And by the time I was done with that, I was too exhausted. So the only time I could write was in the morning. And I did actually, I was, I hate to admit that I was really productive at that time, but I was. And yeah, I think your brain just works differently in the early hours. Yeah, I know I get a lot more done in the first thing in the morning.

But what, are you going to bed early? I was, yes. I was just getting in and kind of going straight to bed. So what are you going to do with the three novels that are on your laptop? I don't know. There's one in particular that I still think about. It was the first one I ever wrote, and I wrote it in eight weeks, because I was... How?

I don't know. I don't think I did much else in those eight weeks. But I still think about those characters and that world, and I might go back there one day. So the budding, for seven years, you've been a budding novelist, you know, this passion, this desire you want to get published. How does it feel now that you've... It's out there? Oh, it's incredible. It's a really vulnerable place to be as well, because obviously my work has been.

being read by people around the world, which is incredible, but also really daunting just because I've lived with these characters for so many years and now other people are meeting them and they're becoming something else entirely, which is incredible and extremely surreal at the same time. And what advice would you give budding authors? You know, your living proof, I guess it's that thing. If you really truly want something, you keep at it, you have your practice religiously every morning.

Something good will come. Yeah, I think my advice, would be to carve out time and just treat it like it matters because if you believe in it enough to dedicate time to it, I do genuinely believe that other people will with it in time. So carve out the time and just believe in yourself and keep going. Also, you are very talented as well as that does help. Thank you so much for coming in to speak to me this morning.

Thank you. It's been brilliant. Grace Walker and her novel The Merge is out now and the audiobook is read by Tamrin Payne and Pearl Hewitts. And I'm going to end with a few of your messages coming in about the items that make you feel great. I bought a pair of silver trainers to cheer myself up on a grey January day. Complete strangers of all ages and gender

are still complimenting me. The sight of my silver trainers seems to make their day. And another one. For me, it's my Dr. Martin boots. There is nothing I can't do in them and they keep my cold feet warm in the winter. And you can wear them at any age and it doesn't matter because they're a timeless classic.

I'm totally with you. That's it for me. Do join me tomorrow. We've got live music from the celebrated Irish French singer and actress Camille O'Sullivan. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett. For most of my career, I've been on live radio and I love it. But I've always wondered, what if we'd had more time? How much deeper does the story go? I remember having this very sharp thought that what you do right now, this is it. This defines your life. I'm ready to talk and ready to listen. I'm insulted by how little the medical community is ever bothered with this. Ready to talk with me, Emma Barnard is my new podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds.