Woman's Hour - 28/10/2025

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight.

It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden. Yeah. And I do look like. my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Neula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, the trial over online bullying of Francis First Lady is underway in Paris. We're going to hear details on that highly unusual case. Also, perhaps unexpected story, we're going to hear why some people in Sweden want their autism or ADHD diagnosis rescinded.

Also this hour, we'll talk about gel nails. They're incredibly popular, but will an EU ban on a chemical used in the process affect nail salons and their customers across the UK? And we have the comedian Laura Smith. Her upcoming show is called Born Aggie. She takes pleasure in being grumpy or aggravated, even when everything in her life is going well. And we'll hear why.

But I am wondering, is that you, can being aggy be a superpower? Perhaps giving up the good girl or the smiling facade can help you put your own needs first without worrying what other people think. Is there joy in being grumpy? And does the grumpy old man get better poorer than the grumpy old woman? You can text the program, the number is 844 on social media where at BBC Women's are, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. the number is 0-3-700, 100444.

But let us begin in Paris, where the French First Lady is bringing a case which could set a legal precedent in France. Brigitte Macron, the wife of French President Emmanuel Macron, has accused 10 people of posting malicious comments about her saying she was born a man, a claim she says, is completely untrue. It found guilty that eight men and two women standing trial could face up to two years in prison. Johnny Maneo now is Sophie Petter, Paris Bureau Chief at The Economist. We also have Sarah Dytum, columnist, at the Times. Welcome to you both and good morning.

Sophie, let me begin with you. Tell me a little bit more about what the 10 people have been accused of. Well, it's one of those cases where a sort of world of conspiracy theories, which has been taking place on the web for years and on social media, has kind of suddenly gone mainstream. in France are uncovering something they didn't even know about and that is the rumors, the conspiracy theories that have been going around suggesting falsely that Brigitte Macron, Emmanuel Macron's wife is not only just a man but that she's in

fact his brother, her brother Jean-Michel Tonu, who is her older brother and that this has been disguised over the years that Brigitte Macron is pretending to be a woman and they have now in the court they're trying to defend themselves against claims of cyberbullying because at some point Brigitte Macron decided

that she couldn't take this anymore she could have decided just to let it go her lawyer said it's incredibly upsetting but she has decided to take this one to court so it's one of those cases that the more you look at the details the more incredible they are a lot of the defendants

yesterday in court was suggesting that this was just, you know, humour. They weren't actually bullying her. They were just, you know, it's satire. The usual defence. But it's obviously upsetting for the French First Lady, and that's where she's taking this to court. So interesting, because many times with things like this before, that perhaps we've seen globally with political figures or political spouses,

they let it go and run through the rumours. online. Is Brigitte expected to speak in court? No, she's not expected to speak in court, at least not, that's not as far as I know. Certainly her daughter, so her youngest daughter, she has three adult children, her youngest daughter, Tiffin Ozier, is going to appear in court this afternoon. That is the first and probably only member of the family who will speak to, I suspect, the distress that her mother has been feeling as a result of all of this. And, you know, your point is so valid, you know, what is, what is worse?

Should you just let these things go and hope that they kind of die a slow death on the web and then social media? Or do you actually take the risk of amplifying them by making this a big case? And it's being covered, it's all over the French papers. It's obviously all over the international press as well. And that, that at itself is damaging for her. So, I mean, the whole situation is very upsetting. You know, she, I've met Tiffenuzia. met Brigitte Macron several times, you know, it's palpably false, it's ridiculous, but these

things take on a life of their own. And at some point, Bridget Macron decided that she, you know, as I said, she couldn't take it anymore, that the damages to her well-being is just too great. And the law is different in every country. When it comes to cases like this as well, of cyberbullying, digital cruelty, I heard it called in other spheres. But this isn't the only case that the Macron's have pursued because they filed a defamation case against Candace Owens, who would be well known in the United States. Yes. I mean, there are two other cases. One of them is the case you've just referred to. Now, that is a much bigger case, and it's going to be an incredibly difficult and public moment for both Brigitte and Emmanuel Macron. They filed a case against Candice Owens, the American influencer, who has been running a series called Becoming Brigitte, in which she claims, she makes exactly the same claims. I mean, the two worlds. are connected. The French influences are connected to Candice Owens. And that case has been filed

in Delaware, in the state of Delaware, and it will be heard at some point next year. That's going to be very exposing for the Macron couple because they will probably have to appear in court themselves and they will have their private life pretty much combed over by the American justice system. There has been another quick case which was heard in France. That case was went to the appeals court, it involved very similar allegations as the current one. It was rejected on appeal, but not because the rumor was accurate, but because the court couldn't establish that there was a defamation case. So that is going to a higher appeals court, Brigitte Macron, has appealed against that one.

But I think the US case next year is the one that's going to be even more covered by the media and even more exposing and difficult, really difficult for Brigitte Macron to go. Because it will intersect with culture wars that are happening in the United States at the moment. Candiceone has said that there is nothing more American than free speech and the ability to criticize may use that within our defence. We don't know yet. But of course, we've heard some of those arguments over different issues and not the Macron's, but I expect that one to really, I suppose, gain traction on whichever side you may be on in those wars.

I want to bring in Sarah here. How significant do you think it is that we're seeing a first lady call this out in public? It's a massive deal and it's a very brave thing to do, I think. You know,

obviously these rumours have been seen and viewed by millions and millions of people and particularly Candace Owen's efforts in promoting them have spread them very, very widely. But by bringing this case, the Macron's have really kind of crossed the streams. They have introduced these allegations into the mainstream media for the first time. So I actually interviewed Candace Owens a few years ago. And in the process

of writing up that interview, I had quite a hard time figuring out how much I should say about some of the allegations that she's been making, because they are untrue, because they are defamatory, and because within a mainstream media environment, they are very tricky things to put in front of the public in an appropriate way. But as soon as they have become the substance of a legal case, you know, suddenly you and I are able to talk about this on Radio 4. And there are going to be many, many listeners who have not come across this, you know, frankly, absolutely cracked theory that regime Macron is a man, but will not have encountered it before us talking about it. So it is brave and it is high risk.

There has always been, I think, a fascination around Brigitte Macron because of the 24-year age gap between Brigitte and her much younger husband, the president, Emmanuel Macron. Do you think that plays into some of these conspiracy theories? Oh, very, very much. I think there is a, well, first of all, there is a suspicious. that attaches to First Ladies anyway because it is a role that exercises power in its own right. It is a semi-informal role because it is defined by a woman's marriage to usually male head of state.

And because if you look at the example of, for example, Cherie Blair, her treatment when she was, during Tony Blair's premiership in the UK, she was treated as a sort of usurping malign influence. And that is very, very common in terms of the way that first ladies are treated. And part of the sort of, I think there's a mentality that sees female power as illegitimate and sees it as a kind of as usurping masculinity. And then in the case of Brigitte Macron, there's also been similar efforts to build the same kind of rumors around Michelle Obama as well.

and then says, well, you know, this woman is acting in the role of a man, therefore maybe she is secretly a man. And if you combine that with the, you know, unusual age gap in the Macron relationship, I think people then build, you know, castles out of nothing and suddenly have these huge edifices of fiction that they are very compelled by. Interesting to think about it if gender roles were reversed. Sophie, what does it mean if the Macron's win or lose this particular case? Just on your previous point, you know, it's interesting to think that Donald Trump and Melania have exactly the same age gap. It's 24 years and nobody ever really mentions that as an issue, but it's constantly been an issue for Brigitte and Emmanuel Macron. To your question, I think it's about establishing the truth and trying to get a sense of justice about this.

You know, that's why they've taken this risk. They're prepared to put themselves through what will be an ordeal. In the French case, less so, the American case, much more so, because they want the truth to come out and they want to be able to defend themselves publicly and they want the record put straight. The question is, of course, whether that will actually happen. You know, nothing will stop those who are intent on spreading conspiracy theories from doing so. So, you know, there may be a deterrence effect, but I suspect that, you know,

It's one of those things that's very difficult to do, but the Macron's have decided that they want to at least make an attempt to do that, put the record and establish the public record as far as the fact that Brigitte Macron is not a man. And with the 10 that are accused, if found guilty, they could face jail time, right? Yes, they could face up to two years. It's probably unlikely that that sort of sentence would be actually applied. But that is the law in France. again, you know, it's a question of a sense of justice

and making sure that people understand how much this cyberbullying, how distressing this has all been, that's why Brigitte Macron's daughter Tiffin is going to appear in court this afternoon because she wants to explain just how much her mother has been through. Thank you both very much, Sophie Pedder, Paris Bureau-Chief for The Economist and Sarah Dytum columnist at the times. It is just a two-day trial, so we'll probably have a result

on that in the coming days. Now, we often speak on this programme of how difficult it can be to get a diagnosis of autism or ADHD. Many express reliefs, however, when they do receive a diagnosis for themselves or for their children. But I want to turn to a small study. This is in Sweden. And it explores ADHD and autism from a different perspective.

It involves about 100 people diagnosed one of those conditions, but who now would like to be considered for a de-diagnosis. Why might that be? Well, I'm joined by Dame Utefrut, Emeritus Professor of Cognitive Development at UCL and psychologist Sebastian Lundström from the University of Gothenburg, who is one of the study's researchers. Great to have both of you with us this morning. Thank you for joining us.

Sebastian, so what was your study looking at exactly? So during the last decades, I mean, there has been this dramatic increase in the number of diagnosed autism and ADHD cases. and what happened during the last couple five to ten years that we received a lot of requests from people who for some reason wanted to get rid of their diagnosis and we wanted to explore why this was the fact because it's not unheard of it but it's quite uncommon that this happens

and what did you find why did they want to get rid of their diagnosis Well, there were several reasons because why they wanted to get rid of their diagnosis. So one group said that it once provided, I mean, access and support, but they now had grown out of the need for this access and support. Several participants recalled that the diagnosis has once opened a door for educational accommodation, financial aid or school assistance, but that the classification later became an obstacle in adult life. I mean, it was hard to write it down on job applications. Some trajectories were close to them, such as applying for different jobs or doing the mandatory draft in Sweden.

And some people never felt that the original assessment had been, were accepted by them. They felt confused or pressured into a process that did not reflect their own understanding of themselves. And the group also said that their problems in childhood could be understood at responses to other difficult life circumstances, such as trauma, or stress or unstable home environment. So they didn't agree with the diagnosis. I mean, I did find it interesting with Sweden that citizens with an ADHD, so attention deficit hyperactivity disorder

or an autism diagnosis, they have been barred from joining the military or working as trained drivers without a specific doctor's note. They must also provide a medical certificate when applying for a driving license. Yes. So these diagnoses tend to speak and are used as sorting mechanisms in areas where there were not intended to be used.

And that is very different to the UK, I should say, the Equality Act of 2010, in particular, which does not allow discrimination in situations such as this. Do you think, Sebastian, that the Swedish government is going to consider this? And it's a small study. I want to come back to that. It's just 100 people that you're looking at approximately. But would they consider rescinding? I mean, is that something that's possible?

They have already rescindered that you need a doctor's note to apply for a driver's license. I don't think that has anything to do with our study. It's a rather pressing demand because the prevalences of autism and ADHD are quite substantial in various parts of Sweden. In the UK on that, you are legally obligated to inform. the DVLA if your condition affects your ability to drive safely. That is to ensure public safety. They say not to discriminate. Let me bring

in Uta. Is this issue or these concerns because it's not all to do with obstacles to certain careers, for example, or to driving that people have quoted to Sebastian. Is that something you've come across in the UK at all?

Well, the main issue that I have been concerned about is in fact the potential overdiagnosis that we are seeing. And unlike in that Swedish study, this applies mainly to adolescents and adults rather than diagnosing children. So at the moment, we have an enormous number of people who are fighting quite desperately to get a diagnosis of autism or ADHD. And I am concerned about this because I do know that many people find having a diagnosis extremely helpful, but there is always a downside.

There are always unintended consequences of this. And we have, I think in general, becoming more and more aware of, of, problems with having a medical diagnosis. I was made aware of this by a recent book by Suzanne O'Sullivan. The book is called The Age of Diagnosis, and she makes this very important point that we are so concerned with getting a diagnosis and think, well, no harm is done,

we must find out what's wrong with us in order to... And that would be a very controversial view. I know I've spoken to so many people that have fought so hard at trying to get a diagnosis for autism or ADHD, particularly for their children, because they need some adjustments, for example, when it comes to an educational setting. And we do know that the National Autistic Society in the UK says that diagnostic criteria had been shaped around stereotypical male presentations of autism, meaning that a generation of women had lost out. The point that I would like to make and that I really got from Suzanne O'Sullivan's book is that once you have a diagnosis, you know, however much you've fought for it, you will be stuck with it for life. You may not realize that this may in some way have some negative consequences. See, in the Swedish studies, there are certain jobs that you might be barbed from. There might be certain accidents that happen where you would be accused of, you know, not having possibly taken the right precautions. And of course, very much depending on the country, because some of the conditions we talked about in Sweden do not are not applicable within the UK.

That is true. That is absolutely true. but I think that certain jobs in the army and the police in airplane flying and certain industrial occupations, it would be very dangerous not to disclose your medical records and your diagnosis. And indeed, and we talked about that particularly with driving. But with this, I mean, do you see any changes of it?

Because I think it's so interesting that the Swedish authorities appear to be considering it. And Sebastian mentioned some of the changes when it comes to driving. Do you see that conversation or discussion, even if it is a contentious one, taking place in the UK? I think the Swedes are ahead of us here. I think it will happen. I think there will be more awareness of possible side effects. There are good effects of a diagnosis in many cases, but we have not yet properly established that actually the life of the people who are diagnosed is getting better.

by after having the diagnosis. So there are lots of problems to be considered. And I think a discussion will, it has not yet started, quite started, but it will happen. It's important for professionals just as much, I mean the people who are doing the diagnosis as for the people who are seeking the diagnosis.

The professionals are often saying that they would like to consider other possibilities rather than giving a diagnosis of autism or ADHD. but it seems to be the case that that is very damaging for them because their clients are very upset if they refuse and they immediately try and find somebody else. So at the moment the situation is not very easy for the professionals and of course it's a rush that we really ought to pause a little bit

and really consider what it is all about. Very interesting. I know Manny will feel they've waited too long for certain diagnoses, but it is an interesting conversation catalyst that Dame Utefrid, emeritus professor of cognitive development at UCL and the psychologist Sebastian Lundstrom from the University of Gothenburg have started. Thank you both so much. BMJ has written up part on this study,

and you can also find Sebastian's study online if you're interested in looking a little further. And if you are concerned about anything that you have heard during our discussion here, you can, of course, we always advise to get that advice from your GP. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day.

I just stole myself on the floor. It's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden. Yeah. And I do look like my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Now, the latest episode of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life is out now.

This week, it's all about how to keep love and intimacy alive in long-term relationships. We're talking about the spark. The writer, now please. who has been with her partner for 10 years and has two young children, shares her best advice and how she stays connected and keeps the bond strong when her busy life gets in the way. I find my partner incredibly attractive when we are around people that we don't see all the time. And they ask him questions that I wouldn't think to ask.

They would tell him things that I can't tell. You know, there is a sort of a third energy there, which I think is really productive. It's really attractive. Date nights can get very intense if it's just you and the person you, live with and are maybe raising kids with or maybe running a business with sitting across the table trying to come up with something new to say and just bringing in that third energy can be really really useful so now I try and you know if we go away we go away with another family or another couple or if we go out for dinner I really like there to be other friends there because

we have dinner together most nights you know what makes it specialist having a new conversation starter or a new opinion a new perspective something novelty within security. Nell Frizzell, they're so interesting. We also had a couple of our experts with us, the psychologist Susan Abse, we also had Dr. Amani Gilligan. Great listen.

Available only on BBC Sound. So to find it, search for Woman's Hour and the Guide to Life. Or you can go to BBC.com.com.uk forward slash guide to life. Our next episode is going to be about building emotional resilience in children and young people. But the tips will also help you the adult. 8444 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, what have all your dreams come true

and you still find yourself a little bit grumpy? That is the brilliantly blunt question at the heart of my next guest's upcoming comedy tour. It's called Born Aggie. It's from the latest show from East London's own Laura Smith. Now Laura's journey into comedy wasn't textbook. Is it ever textbook for comedians? She left behind a career in teaching.

She was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer that same year and then just two weeks after finishing her treatment she was on stage at Live at the Apollo. I'm thrilled to say she's in studio this morning. Good morning, Laura. Good morning, yep, I'm still here. You're still here. We had a very brief meeting in the women's toilets before the show started

but it was just a very quick hello. Born Aggie, brilliant title. How are you feeling today? You have a big smile in your face. Are you feeling Aggravated, agitated? What does Aggie relate to exactly? Well, I am in a good mood, but that's because I let it out. We're like pressure cookers.

If you don't let it out, it comes out in all different ways. But the bull naggy comes from, my first tour was going to be called living my best, no, my first tool was called living my best life. And it was a little bit tongue in cheek about that, you know, the hashtag and everyone projecting all this wonderful life. But actually I thought, well, I am actually living my best life. I've gone through illness and blah, blah, blah. So this tool was going to be called fighting and dancing because I felt like that.

that came from a little moment with a friend who'd also gone through illness and that we can't avoid the bad things in life but we can know when we're fighting and dancing and then I was doing a run through of the show in South End and I was talking about being Aggie and this woman on the second row went

I was born Aggie and I thought I just knew that was the name of the tour and so yeah born Aggie is just about being a bit aggravated and realising you're just like that I look at pictures of me as a kid and realise, I think I just always had the amp about everything and just raging, you know, raging against the machine a little bit. So it's a little bit about self-acceptance.

If things get on your nerves, call it out. And then you're happy to have a big smile and enjoy the good stuff. So to call it out as well. But, you know, one line we did say is that being Aggie, or even being born Aggie, can be a superpower. Yes. Why? Well, because I think that you can play the game so much.

I'm the youngest of lots of brothers and sisters and you kind of bringing up the rear. I think, I don't want to be too, you know, black and white or binary about it, but I think women are very good at thinking about the good of the group. You know, I think in terms of, I think it impacts our careers. I think it impacts everything. I think we enter us or any space and think, what does everyone need, you know, rather than actually what do I need? And often when you have someone and I have friends like this, when you have anyone that just calls something out, calls out an injustice, calls out a meeting that's just going on too long

and everyone's just talking for the sake of it without action. When someone claps their hands together and go, right, I think we've talked about this enough, actually. Shall we move on? Everyone dissolves in relief, don't they? So it is a superpower to get the hump. And sometimes I do so much sort of self-help and therapy to try and be kumbaya. And actually, sometimes you just want someone to go, yeah, you're spot on.

And you can make a whole show about it. Oh, course. look I wear my themes loosely when I do any sort of show but it's more just the fun of like it makes me laugh that I'm happily married my kids are all in a good place I'm doing my absolute dream career and then within that I'm very healthy thank God I'm healthy yeah and that's really funny that's really funny being ill

and anyone knows with a cancer diagnosis you think I've got it or I ain't and they're going to do it they're going to cure it or they're not And I thought it would be bish-bash-bosh. But what you don't realize is that for a good few years, you're stuck in bish. Yeah, yeah, yeah, limber bish. Yeah, bish, bish, bish. And you just go, okay, I'm all right.

They've taken both breasts. They've taken my ovaries. I'm still on hormone blockers. That might contribute to the aginess. I won't lie. So, yeah, and you're still here. And I kind of, yeah, and then you think, I want to give thanks. And there's so many times when you get over an illness where you're meant to just be grateful for being in.

You think, yeah. Yeah, I've still got the um-known. But maybe the way to think about it, if you're born, Aggie, getting back to yourself is being a bit Aggie instead of being all flowers and rainbows. Absolutely. Do you know, you need it. It's like when you're trying to get on a packed tube and people aren't moving down, you just want some old lady to go, move done!

And you're like, oh, good, yes, someone's taking action here. It is often an older woman who's ready to put us in our place. And I am asking about grumpy old women, do they get a worse peor than grumpy. be old men. Oh no, I think grumpy women are absolutely gross. I think women are allowed to be grumpy and that's another thing with age. I don't identify as fully grumpy because

I'm too young and cute, but I... Just Aggie. Just aggie, yeah, yeah. Agi's a funnier word. It's just a little bit more aggressive, I like it. Now, before comedy, let's take a step back. You were a teacher. When I started looking, you know, it's a theme among comedians. You've got Greg Davis

Leaving Education, Jennifer Saunders, somebody I know you love as well. Oh, yeah. And I understand it was actually one of your own teachers who inspired you to get into education. That was when you were in your early 20s and you had your daughter. Oh, yeah. This is, oh my God. Rachel Moore, Miss Moore, my A-level English teacher, who I really often can't talk about about getting upset.

I bumped into her, actually. Now, I got a B at A-level English and which felt like just abject failure to me because it was my favourite thing in the world. And I didn't feel brave enough to go and do an English degree. So when I first went off to do a degree, I did economics and philosophy at the University of Sheffel, which was the last thing I should have done. I like maths, but I thought, and I left, and I had a baby, and I thought, oh, gosh, and my confidence was so low.

I thought, you know, I never envisaged being a single mum, and I was just, you know, being, I was in temporary accommodation, and I bumped into my old A-level English teacher. I was in my early 20s, and my little one was about two or three, my Rosie. And I was at the Legislature Center, and she went, oh, what are you doing? I said, oh, bums, thumbs and thighs, and she went, no, with life, like that. And I said, oh, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, the mum and she just said it so sternly

like a good teacher. Why aren't you doing an English degree? And I was like oh and it just gave me this confidence that my teacher who got into my head that I'd let down by only getting a B mostly because I had to read the Dubliners in the exam because I couldn't get through it when I should have been all prepared.

But it just gave me this confidence and I remember saying to my housing officer at the time, Julia Fari I love her. She was amazing. She looked into how I could access a degree whilst I was still, you know, on the temporary accommodation and going through the sort of benefit system. And we worked it out. And I went back and did an English degree and got a first class

honours and then became an English teacher. And that was because Miss Moore told me off. Well, congratulations on that. But you did decide the teaching wasn't the career for you, even though you had a captive audience every day. And you left teaching. But then the pandemic happened. And of course, you got a cancer diagnosis. as well. Oh, it was all, it was all wild because, um, yeah, yes, so I started teaching and then I met my husband and I had more children and I feel like I achieved just being baseline, normal and stable. And as soon as I got that, I thought, well, actually, this isn't what I really want to do, you know, and this, this feeling that I'd always wanted to be a stand-up my whole life, I wanted to

do it. So I did start that in 2019 and it went great guns for a year, you know, like I'd won the funny women awards really early. I'd got signed by a big agent. And everything was going swimmingly. And then this pandemic happened. And as soon as we, and I was teaching online, and as soon as the pandemic finished, and I went back into work, it was March 2021, not really finished,

March 2021. And I thought, I just had to hand in my notice. You know, I just knew I was done with it because I think teaching is the best profession in the world and it deserves all of you. And I think, I knew I couldn't give it my all. So I handed my notice. And it was more than just the year,

the September, I didn't go back to school. November 2021. Within a week or two, I found the lump on my breast. So this kind of, I'd had it twice where I felt like I got kicked back into place. Once when I started comedy and then the whole world shut down. And then once when I left teaching ready to go for it, I had this devastating diagnosis. And I couldn't make sense of it, to be honest, it flawed me. And as we talked about stage three and you are healthy now, I'm very glad to hear that. But some people might be surprised that Two weeks after your treatment ended, you were on stage at Live of the Apollo. Yeah.

How did that happen? Well, because I'm such a brilliant comedian, I suppose. That's why it happened. Correct. Well, it's really funny. I, you just have little things that keep you going in your head in the darkest days of chemo. And it really is a head game chemo as well as the, you know, the physical beating up that you get. Two things sustain me in my sort of darkest moments where I couldn't lift myself up.

One was a beach in Kefalonia that I wanted to visit and I had a picture of it on my fridge because I really wanted to go there and two was stepping out stage on live at the Apollo and just at the end of August when I'd just finished all the radio therapy I got a call from my agent actually saying you didn't get live with the Apollo

and oh it just didn't feel that that didn't feel correct to me but apparently you were really close and I thought oh and then and I went oh that's fine that's fine actually that's fine because I don't look great you know I'm not really myself yet and then within about a week she said oh look, someone's had to pull out and they really do want you, so you really close.

And my agent and I, who were both a bit, which you were, went, yeah, that feels better, doesn't it? That feels right. And everyone always asks, oh, how does that feel? Because it's my absolute dream. And I always tell them, I decided to enjoy it. You know, there's loads of gigs I've done where, what I call, I left it all in the green room. I get so excited. But, you know, you fluffed the first time you did a comedy store or something like that.

So I thought, well, no, I just decided to enjoy it. And I stepped out on that stage. and my husband was in the audience and he said you just did this daft little dance and I thought, oh, she's enjoying her. Yeah, yeah. And it was about the week after the queen died so I thought it might be cancelled.

Yeah. So I thought, don't mess with me, Lizzie. Because you've had a number of world events that kind of decides the path that you'll go on. But I am thinking about because, yes, it's not linear. But were you always doing little comedy gigs? Were you always making people laugh? Because it does look like not overnight success,

overnight success are often decades in the making. But what was the spark? The spark was, I feel, I mean, my family are funny. Like, to be competitively funny is just what, dinner time. You know, my family are so funny. All my siblings are funny. My mum's hilarious. My grandma was hilarious.

My dad was hilarious. And that was almost like the only currency in our family to be funny. So I think I was well honed to always just go for the seventh funniest out come of a punchline to win basically so i think that's just all stand-up is and and i just always pictured myself doing it and i'd write whole routines in my head and i never felt brave enough and it was only my husband i admitted that it was a dream to do it and so um yeah i just i just went for it how what what where did you start well for a wedding present my husband bought me a day's writing course in Logan murray as just and it just was great i was with all loads of funny people

and I was as funny as them and he was funny and he said this phrase he said oh no I've never had a real job in my life and that spoke to me as a mum and a teacher and I'd worked hard for everything so I knew I wanted to do it but I didn't do anything about it that was sort of back in 2016 or whatever

and then 2019 a few years later I thought oh I've really got to go for it and I was at the end of maternity leave with my youngest my Alfred and you know maternity leave you ain't got no money have you because one of your wages is gone So I went, oh, I said, and I just had this feeling that if I go back to work, that would be me for 30 years.

And I knew there was something in me. There was that life unlived within me, you know, and I thought, I have to go for it. And so I said, oh, I said, I've booked a comedy course. It's every Sunday. I've used the credit card. He went, all right, all right. And then so I did that, started that in March 2019. And then in April, we did a showcase at the end of April.

It was the 28th of April. and a few of the girls filmed it and some of the girls went oh the closing date for submissions for the funny women awards is the 30th so two days later I handed that in and then in September I won it

five months after starting So it kind of was an overnight success Yeah yeah yeah I just like being like I'm competitive I just like being better than everyone Yeah well this is working out for you being agi and being very competitive is working up brilliant

What's next? You have you haven't So the show is in 2026 Yes Have you finished? Are you done? Have you written everything? No, it's never done. It's always a living, breathing thing. That's why it's so magic.

So I am doing work in progresses. It's on sale now. You can go through my website, laurrasmith.com. Plug, plug, plug. And then it all starts in September next year. So there'll be loads of work in progress shows, but I'm a club comedian. So there will not be a joke in that tour

that wouldn't, you know, bang on a Saturday night in a comedy club. You know, it's not all storytelling. It's just I like jokes. But it's fun. It's just talking about, everything. You know, being a mum, coming from a big family, all those dynamics, you know, it's all the similar themes and all the fun stuff. It's being married and all the fun and games of that. So there's always just things presenting themselves, you know, constantly. And born Aggie.

Being born Aggie, giving everyone else a licence to have an ump about the same things. There, lots of people are enjoying the being all come by us. Somebody says they're going to shoot their horned out into any conversation that they can. Laura's tour, Born Aggie, taking place, as she mentioned, across the UK in 2026, and tickets are available now. That is Laura Smith. Thanks so much for coming in. Thank you.

Now, I want to turn to Petula Clark. She's known for her number one hit song Downtown, but she's an actor, of course, as well as a singer. As she's just published her autobiography, Is That You, Petula. It looks back on her eight decades in showbiz from singing to the wartime troops in the 40s to hanging out with Hollywood greats like Predoster, Francis Ford Coppola, and Frank Sinatra, and she let us know her secret for living a joyful and fulfilling life at the age of 92. I love what I do. I think I'm privileged all these years to have been doing what I love. You know, how many people can say that?

And the energy comes from doing it and the energy that comes back to me from the audience. that's it's two-way traffic it's a very exciting thing to do and I love music in general not just my music I can't imagine my life without it without music and garlic

if you really want to know so there we have it the secret to the amazing life of Petula Clark is lots of music and a little bit of garlic more than a little bit or more than a little

You can listen back to the full interview on BBC Sounds It's the Woman's Era episode from the 27th of October. That woman was a delight. Now, are you a fan of getting your nails done? It is a beauty trend that continues to grow in popularity. In recent years, that's often meant a gel manicure. That is a technique that uses UV lights to cure gel polish for a much longer lasting shine.

But with the growing demand for gel nails, There's also been an increase in reported side effects, particularly skin allergies. Last month, in what was described as a shock to the industry, the EU completely banned the use of TPO that was a key ingredient in many gel polishes due to fertility risks in animal trials. So where does that you leave UK salons and customers? How safe are your gel nails? Well, with me in studio is Melissa Wright.

She's the founder of the Allure Group and owns two salons near Newcastle and runs a trainee school. Good morning. Good morning. Good to have you with us. We also have Dr. Nayla Dinani, who is a consultant dermatologist at the Royal United Hospital in Bath, who will tell us a little bit more about some of the risks as well. But Melissa, TPO, I kind of alluded to it there. But what does it do in the gel nail process?

It's a four-o-initiator chemical, so it cures the builder gel or the gel polish, what you're using in the lamp. So it heats up, and it creates a chemical reaction within the lamp, and that's when your nails come out in the hard, and they're not wet anymore, that's what that chemical does. And were you concerned when you heard that the EU had decided to ban it? For me personally, we have already had a product that we manufacture ourselves in the EU and we already had that on the market without TPO or hemering anyway.

So for us it wasn't particularly worrying, but it was worrying for the industry as a whole because it kind of shone light on, you know, how people could be scared of having their nails done or people could be worried about having, you know, build a gel for the foreseeable, not be educated and know that particular product. It is going to cause a little bit of a stir, but it's putting the power into the client's hands, which I quite like to know that they can choose where to go to feel safe.

Yeah, so it's kind of, as opposed, shining a light on something that maybe people hadn't thought about previously. Naila, good to have you with us. What was the concern exactly that led the EU to ban it? I mentioned it was to do with fertility and animal trials. Yes. Yeah, so the EU have banned this based on exposure to rats. So the rats were exposed to very high quantities of the TPO

and it was found to have damage to reproductive health. there haven't been any studies done in animal and humans sorry and you know it's it's in far higher quantities than we would see someone exposed to when they were getting their nails done it was done more as a precautionary safety approach how concern should listeners be so it's been banned in the EU it's not been banned in the UK or the USA and as I say it really is a precautionary measure and the studies are done in in rats who've had a significantly higher level of TPO than you'd get having nails done. Yes, because I mean, I guess what I'm thinking is that often what happens in the EU regulations can sometimes then follow on to the UK. Do you expect it in this particular

instance? Yeah, I think it will and I think it is it is going to be alarming for people and it probably would be sensible to be avoiding TPO now that this has been announced, but I wouldn't want people to worry that historically they've been using products that contain TPO and worrying how this affects them. Melissa, how easy is it for the average customer, just go in and you ask for gel nails to know whether TPO is in a product or not? So I do think that salons will start to reassure the clients, maybe it's with a little sign in the window or explaining that we do use a TPO free system, just to reassure the clients that do go to them, that they don't have to worry. It isn't easy for the customer to ask what ingredients.

you know, it's not a standard procedure to really ask. But I do think that a lot more people are going to be taking that into consideration when they are choosing which salon they go own, which nail tech. Because, as we say, it's not banned in the UK yet. But do you think the EU ban will have, you know, ripples or affect small business owners? Because it is so many women that own nail salons. They often employ less than five people. We do know there's a proliferation across the UK.

but let's see you'll know that more than anyone. Do you expect this EU ban to have an effect here? Yeah, I do think it'll have an effect here. I do think a lot of independent salon owners and people with teams will start phasing out their systems and I do think that's the right move to make. I do think if they have TPO on the shelves, they should probably stop

because it's going to be a huge detrimental cost to the business as well. But that's what I'm wondering. I mean, if I've ever gone into a nail salon, I don't just see, you know, dozens of nail colors, et cetera. Is it expensive? Yes. Like if you were to just, I don't know, empty those shelves and replace. Yes.

So I think because we've got a little bit more time than the EU, because their ban came in effect on the 1st of September, we do foresee that happening. And I think that if you start making the changes now, it's going to be a lot less disruptive to your business. So I think if you have, say, five colours that are running low, then opt for a new TPO bar. TPO-free brand, yeah.

And is it easy to find that? If you go on the website, they should have MSDS sheets, safety data sheets. You should be able to contact. MSDF, that's when it's the safety data. Yeah. So you should be able to contact your brand and ask for their manufacturing safety data sheets

and they will email those over. If they don't, then I would think about switching. Naila, let me turn around to you. That's TPO that we're talking about, which will be a new chemical that lots of people are learning about. Not Melissa, but others. But there has also been other concerns, a brown skin allergies caused by an ingredient that is called hema. Naila, tell me more. Yeah, so in gel polish, you have metacrolates, and the most common metacrelate is hema.

So the metacrelates are in the gel polish, and they're cured under the UV light, which is what makes them hard. Now, if you are doing this yourself at home or if you're not going to a reputable salon and the polish isn't being properly cured, you can be exposed to the uncured metacrylate or hema. This, when it becomes in contact with your skin, can then cause you to become sensitized to this chemical. And this can present as redness, blistering, pain, cracking of the skin, soreness around the nails. But we also often see it on distant sites. So often in the dermatology clinic, we might see a patient present with a red sore rash around their eyes or on their neck. And this is actually due to what's happening on their nails.

And people don't really understand or realise the long-term consequences of developing an allergy to hema or metacrylates. This chemical is also found in dental material or orthopedic material. So if, for example, you're a teenager trying to do a gel nail kit at home, exposing yourself to this chemical, you then can't go on to be a dentist, for example. Or if you were to need a new hip or a new knee, you'd need to tell your orthopedic surgeon that you're allergic to this. I mean, I was shocked when I was reading some of that. I mean, is it common knowledge?

I don't think so, no. So lots of people actually are undiagnosed as having this allergy. So people will come to us, having had years, year-long rashes on their face. They have no idea that it's because they're allergic to this chemical. So no, it's not well known. And, you know, a study was done by the British Association of Dermatology, and they found that when they tested the population, 2.4% of people were actually allergic to this metacrolate, and 93% of these were women. So people do not realize they're allergic. But there is no move, Naila, for example, for that chemical to be removed from gel polishes? No, but we do advise that people avoid home nail kits and make sure they're going to a reputable salon

where they have the correct UV curing machine for the correct polish. Well, let me throw this back to you, Melissa, because this talks about a level of professionalism that is potentially required, particularly for those that may have a skin allergy. Yes. So when we formulated our brand back in 2022, we were, we had the pandemic, people were doing their nails at home and there was a spike in allergies.

Now, when we were looking at labs and formulations, we thought we are going to have to get a product in that is actually without haemar and without TPO. Was that difficult? When we were speaking with labs and going through the sample process, it was quite difficult because the queuing times and the way that the system is applied can be different. and so we were used to working with a product that had hemer in but we could not no longer work with that product at all because it was becoming significant that the spike in allergies was

you've seen it yes that's why we created our brand we were kind of that that was never a plan in our journey of owning salons and train academies that was never the plan that we actually we had to save our business now obviously it is your business but with everything that we're talking about, Melissa, are you surprised that people keep getting their nails done, even though there can be various allergies,

watch out for this chemical, watch out for that chemical. No, I don't think anyone would like to stop getting the nails done in, like, as a woman, you want to feel like you put together. I don't think it's going to really stop people. But what I do think it'll happen is people are going to be more aware of what salon and what product is being applied on the nails and where they are going for the nails and, you know,

making sure that they take. their power. They don't have to stop it altogether. But what they could do is be a little bit more conscious of where they actually do go and what product is being applied on the nails and opt for a haemar-free product and TPO-free product. And there be lots as well who will be

shouting at the radio saying, I never got my nails done, I don't get my nails done, I don't want to get my nails done and that's fine, of course, as well. But in September, the government appointed Kate Dearden MP as the new parliamentary, under-secretary of State, responsible for personal care in the Department of Business and Trade.

Just in my last 30 seconds or so, Melissa, do you think the sector gets sufficient recognition within the UK business community? For like regulating the nail business. Yeah, and kind of the attention that is given to it because I feel I see it exploding as a sector. It's definitely grown. It's widely known that it's a grown industry.

Beauty is not going away. It's not going anywhere. In fact, it's growing rapidly. And I think that is causing, you know, a huge spike in more percentages of people with realising they've got an allergy because more people are getting their nails done. There is a bigger pool of people who are having reactions. So I do think more and more people are going to see different reactions to different chemicals.

Really interesting, Melissa Wright. Thank you so much for coming in. And we also had Dr. Nyla Dinani. Really good to have your expertise as well. Thanks for spending some time with us here on Women's Hour as we talk about gel nails. Tomorrow calls for an overhaul of medical advice given to women affected by faulty breast implants. We talked to a professor from the Centre for Medical Evidence

and a campaigner who has health issues because of the implants. Also a new Radio 4 documentary uncovering notes made by Queen Victoria's physicians with details of her closely guarded mental health struggles. Do join Krupa Paddy, who will be standing in for me at 10. Also, sad news. The faulty terrace actress Ponella Scales has died at the age of 93. Stay with Radio 4 for more on that. That's all for today's

Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. How did Bruce Springsteen become the boss? And what did it cost him to get there? Maybe I was the guy. It gets the guitar. I get the car. I get the girl. Then it adds up to a big so what.

From the makers of the award-winning first season of legend, join me, Laura Barton, for the story of my favourite artist, Bruce Springsteen. We'll get to know life beyond the legend to discover how a scrawny, long-haired introvert from small-town New Jersey transformed into the iconic rock star figure of his 80s glory. We're all going, he has muscles now, which was a little hard to take because we were scrawny.

Do we have to go get muscles? Legend, the Bruce Springsteen story from BBC Radio 4. Listen first on BBC Sounds. A new season of Love Me is here. stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stood myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden.

Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love Me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.