Woman's Hour - 29/10/2025

Episode Date: October 29, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight.

It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden. Yeah. And I do look like. my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Pati, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, and thank you for being with us. We are more than a decade on since the PIP breast implant scandal, which campaigners say has impacted the lives of tens of thousands of women. The implants were banned back in 2010 after it was discovered that they were filled with

cheap industrial-grade silicum. Two people who have given evidence at an ongoing inquiry into this will tell us why they believe there should be a new report into the scandal and why they say the NHS should be compensating women. Also, so much has been written and researched about the life of Queen Victoria. Now, never seen before private diaries from her doctor have shed new light on the monarch. The medical notes are not just opinion, but factual notes about her men. health struggles in the weeks after she gave birth to Bertie.

Matthew Sweet, the presenter of a new documentary about this Queen Victoria's Nightmares, joins us too. And are you an avid romance reader? And if so, have you heard of the books, Icebreaker and Behind the Net? These are just two of the titles doing the rounds on Book Talk, which if you don't know, is an offshoot of TikTok, and it is part of a growing interest in a new genre of writing known as Ice Hockey Romance. Some say this might be why more women are attending ice hockey games across the country.

Sports presenter Katie Shanahan will tell us how and why romance readers are turning to the sport. And we want to hear from you on this. How have you found a passion or a hobby unexpectedly? What was it that drew you in? What was the spark? Because sometimes our favourite pastimes come about in the most surprising of ways. Do you get in touch. You can text the program on number 84844.

will be charged at your standard message rate. Over on social media, you will find us at BBC Women's Hour on Instagram. You can email us through our website or you can send us a WhatsApp audio message or voice note or written note, in fact, the number there is 0300-100-444. All of our terms and conditions can be found on our website. So you get in touch on any of the stories that you hear. But as we were hearing in our headlines there, the BBC has discovered widespread delays in a scheme designed to tell people. or whether their partners have a history of being abusive. The policy known as Claire's law was rolled out more than a decade ago

after Claire Wood was murdered by her abusive boyfriend. Under the domestic violence disclosure scheme, people can ask the police if their partner has a history of abuse. It's called a right to ask application. Home Office guidelines say officers should provide relevant information within 28 days, but a BBC News Freedom of Information request to police suggests that some people in England and Wales have waited more than two years

for responses to these applications. Let's get more on all of this with Isabella Lowenthal Isaacs, policy manager at Women's Aid. Thank you for joining us here on the programme. Despite those official guidelines saying that police should answer within 28 days, the figures show that seven

forces fell the time limit in more cases than they managed to meet it in 2024. What's your reaction to that? Yeah. So Claire's law is obviously it's a really vital safeguard that is designed to prevent perpetrators from causing further harm. Women's aid, we really welcomed it statutory footing under the domestic abuse act. That was in 2021. And that was intended to strengthen the police response and protect survivors. And that basically meant that whereas before it was introduced through policy,

it is now required by law that every force operates it. But of course, three years on, there remain really serious inconsistencies in how the scheme is being used across police forces. And we're really disappointed to see that, you know, with this FOI request that in 2024, 6 forces breached statutory deadlines more often than they met them. And it's particularly concerning, you know, that given only 22 of the total 43 forces in England and Wales, were able to provide any data at all. so we don't have that full picture entirely but I think it's important for you to highlight to remind us why this law is so important.

So Claire's law is a really unique and rare tool that allows us to sort of take action before the abuse has escalated and in some cases taken place and for that reason it's a really vital tool in sort of potentially preventing perpetrators from causing further harm and by providing survivors with the right to request

information about a partner's history of violence, empowers them to sort of make informed decisions about their safety and where necessary, take the steps that they need to leave an abusive relationship. And I think, crucially, it also represents an opportunity to, a really important opportunity, which is rare, to build trust for survivors in the criminal justice system. it's a mechanism that should enable survivors to sort of access protection, seek support and build that pathway that they need out of abuse. And by placing it on a statutory footing, the scheme was, you know, sort of intended to improve that police response to those requests

and, you know, place a requirement to protect survivors in those circumstances. So tools like this really should be utilised. capitalised on by the government in its bold ambition of harving vogue violence against women and girls in a decade. But it's important to, you know, as we can see with this data, that the measure is only as strong as its implementation. And, you know, this research shows that the law is most effective for safeguarding when it's accessed earlier on in a relationship before the woman is fully under the partner's control. Yeah. There was one woman. Isabella who told the BBC that she waited six months to learn that her boyfriend was known

to have strangled previous partners during which time he abused her too. I imagine you hear stories like this all the time. Yeah, really often. And, you know, as I say, it's a really unique and rare tool which gives it empowers survivors to, you know, identify red flags and make a decision to seek support from the police. So it's really, really disappointing that there are such delays in responding to these types of requests. Let's look at where it might be going wrong. Police forces have said that there's been a steep increase in requests for information under this law. In the year to March 2024, there were almost 59,000 requests for information under this disclosure scheme.

And that is up from 14,000 in 2019, a massive increase there. Does that surprise you, first of all? Yeah, as you say, it is a massive increase. It doesn't surprise me massively that the number of requests has increased so much since the law was placed on a statutory footing. And I will say that there has been some really fantastic work done by police and crime commissioners and some forces in this country to sort of amplify the existence of Claire's law through things like local campaigns and putting adverts on kind of local bus stops. So it doesn't surprise me that now there is more awareness of its existence that there isn't. increase in its usage. But also there is a, the demand is going up. We're seeing an increase in the number of women in abusive relationships and needing to seek support. And clearly

massive weight on the police in terms of resource and time. Yes, definitely. And I think, you know, that sort of mirrors various other measures that have been taken since the Domestic Abuse Act came into law in 2021, where there's a huge amount of additional duties and measures, but duties on forces, also local authorities, but not enough resource to sort of see them through properly. I want to bring you this statement from the Assistant Commissioner Louisa Rolf, National Policing Lead for Domestic Abuse, who said the Domestic Violence Disclosure Scheme gives police the crucial opportunity to intervene early and safeguard someone who may be

at risk of domestic abuse, which is why it's important that we get our response. right from the outset. We know that there's been a lack of consistency in the way that the scheme has been applied across forces, meaning the speed and level of disclosure has varied in different parts of the country. This is not good enough, which is why we supported the introduction of statutory guidance to ensure the people receive the same level of service, regardless of location. The number of applications continues to rise year upon year. And whilst this is encouraging, we must ensure that forces have the staff, training and technology to give the best possible service. Automated technology poses a

a significant opportunity to compile complex data quickly and accurately, and we are exploring how this technology can improve the implementation of these domestic violence closures. Just before I let you go, I mentioned those numbers there, 14,000, and now 59,000 applications for information. Do you feel that not getting the information these women need might impact their confidence to confide in the system? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, women's confidence in the police is already extremely low. only one in five women actually report domestic abuse. And this is obviously further exacerbated by the fact that, you know, there's several reports that we see consistently in the news,

investigations into sort of police forces across the country, finding evidence of institutional misogyny and racism. So yes, definitely. And I imagine you want to see more attention given to resources when laws like this are rolled out ahead of them actually being rolled out. Attention given to resources, certainly. And also a greater focus on kind of improving those information sharing practices. I know that there are several sort of issues with, yeah, sharing information across forces

because it's important to remember that survivors do, most of the time, flee. You know, they'll leave their local area in order to access safety. So it's really important that there are kind of robust information sharing practices across forces. Isabella Lowenthal, Isaac's policy manager at Women's Aid. Thank you for joining us here on Women's Hour. Next, there have always been female ice hockey fans in the UK, but something seems to be changing. In some parts of the country, women are now buying more match tickets than men.

Teams like Coventry Blades say 60% of their new season ticket holders this year are women. Now, some say it's down to an unexpected influence, a growing number of people reading romance novels featuring ice hockey players. joining me to discuss his former England hockey player and sports presenter who was covered ice hockey for the Winter Olympics, Katie Shanahan, and Emily Laylock, student and ice hockey fan who has worked on social media for teams in Leeds and Sheffield. Welcome to you both.

A very good morning. Good to be here. Katie, let's talk about this increasing chatter about this love affair between British women and ice hockey. It's been credited to the rise of ice hockey romance books. First of all, tell us about the ingredients of this genre and the lead characters. So I think it's a really exciting and different way of getting women into sport in terms of especially for minority sports like ice hockey, ice hockey being probably in the UK

more of smaller sports, smaller budgets, so comes under that umbrella of minority sports. But also with minority sports, any attention is good attention. So I've just been listening to Icebreaker, the novel that really captured lots of women's hearts in terms of ice hockey. And I think it's a brilliant transition, a merge of worlds. From sport and romance, I'm someone that covers a lot of football, a lot of sport, having played also international hockey. And I did not see this coming.

I think it's brilliant that we've seen quite a niche genre come into the world of sport, and I work a lot in football. So I think minority sports like I've got hockey in the UK is an interesting angle because if it were, for example, football, rugby or cricket, I think it wouldn't be accepted as much. because it's probably more protected. Well, I think it would be the male fans would find it quite difficult if they suddenly saw this huge female fan base

trying to bring romance into football, rugby or cricket, which is traditionally a male, probably a male-dominated sport. Obviously, I'd work a lot with the lionesses, obviously won last night against Australia 3-0. But I think the male fan base would be very protective if romance were to come into those more older and traditional sports. But ice hockey in the UK, a minority sport, I think it's brilliant and also great that the players are buying into this

and allowing these female fans to just really get on board with the idea. Well, look, you mentioned icebreaker by Hannah Grace. It's all about a figure skater and hockey team captain, forced to show a rink. I'm going to read you a bit of it. Here goes. There is a real chance I could spontaneously burst into flames at any moment. Nate's voice is barely above a whisper as he suggests testing his theory

but I feel every syllable all over my skin as goosebumps are spread down my neck and across my chest I've been betrayed by my body from the second he put his hands on both sides of my head and leaned in he's barely touched me yet I'm able to melt into a puddle at his feet Emily welcome to Women's Hour tell us what you believe is the appeal of hockey romances I think it appeals definitely to a new demographic of fans. I think that because the books are so popular on TikTok and because of Book Talk now, it's appealing to like a younger generation who are on TikTok all the time.

So I think it's a good thing that it's like welcoming new fans into the sport. But I feel like some fans are misrepresented by recent, like, articles about female fans only going to watch hockey because of the books. because there's a lot of female fans who go there or have been going for years and it's not just because of the books, even though that is bringing new fans into it. This whole link between tickets, sales and the book,

I want to explore that a bit more because Katie, you've been commentating on sports for a very long time. It is hard to get concrete data on this kind of thing, but to what extent do you believe we can put these rise in the number of tickets that women are buying down to them reading these books? I think it's a good question because like you say

it's really difficult to see that tie but British hockey game 75 increase we've seen in ticket sales since 2010 that's more women going to the games

45% increase in 25 in 2025 were women and like you said earlier 60% of season ticket holders are women which I think is brilliant

but can it's hard to say really in terms of the connection between sport. But I think this is a really important connection that needs to be explored. I'm all for it. I think what's wrong with women being able to have a bit of eye candy when it comes to sport? For example, we have seen men have it through grid girls in Formula One.

We've got ring girls in boxing and also darts, walk on girls as well. So whatever and however women find a way into ice hockey and their love, once they're in, once they're in, they're hooked and they're into the sport, whether it's through romance novels, whether it's this data that's showing the link between ice hockey romance and getting women into the sports. I think it's a really interesting thing that needs to be explored because I'm all for women having eye candy in sport because men have had it for so many years. So why not explore it into new genres? It's something that's quite niche that I don't think that many people saw coming.

Well, in response to what you've just said, we've had this message in from Sarah. in Halifax, who's a player and a fan who says she believes this is an insult to the many women in ice hockey, players, officials and fans. Ice hockey has one of the highest proportion of female fans of all sports in the UK. And just about all of it came to the sport from the skill, speed and brutal nature, not from reading a romance novel, she says. Emily, what do you make of that? There are real

divides, aren't there here? Yeah, definitely. I think that the product on the ice is what draws a lot of people in. You might get into the sport through reading a book but I feel like you keep going because of what you see and I feel like a hockey match night is quite an experience there's a lot going on in the period breaks like entertainment on the big screens there's lots of competitions so I feel like that would keep you going and it's more of a family friendly sport than like football and rugby I would say I would as a female I would go to a hockey game by myself because I would feel comfortable in the crowd You don't see as many like drunk men, for example, whereas at football, I feel like the crowds are quite different.

You might not feel as safe or comfortable going alone as a female. So I think that's maybe why there's more female fans at hockey games. But isn't there an argument here whereby, you know, ice hockey being a minority sport in the UK, Emily, you just want fans to get in. So however they come in and come and watch the sport and get bums on seats and building a fan base, surely that's better than. then, you know, no fans at all. I feel as though this is a good hook. And once the fans are in, they're in and then they'll love the game for what it is.

Yeah, that's true. I don't think there's a problem with people getting into the sport through the books. Because, like I said, I don't think you would keep going just to, like, stare at the players. But I just think it's maybe controversial to say that that's how all fans get into it. Because a lot of people have been following it for a really long time as well. And Emily, you scour social media for your work with these various hockey teams. And are you, I mean, first of all, give us a sense of those conversations when it comes to reflecting on these books.

I've never brought up the books to the players. Like when I've been doing the content, there was a trend going around where like hockey social media admins were getting the players to read out segments from the books. And I never went down that route. Just because I didn't want the players to feel like, objectified or as the the fans of that club were going to try and like replicate what was happening in the books. But I do think that there's like power to getting fans in through reading the books. I just never went down that route with the players in terms of like the content. And I guess the question here is whether these fans will last, whether this is just

a phase, if we can put it down to these books, of course, that they've come about this new genre, they're fascinated by it, they're coming along. But but how do you? get them to stay and how do you keep that interest to remain? I think it's down to the players and the sport as a whole how much they're buying into it. We're reading articles whereby the warm-ups are quite

raunchy, shall we say. They seem to feature in lots of these books, aren't they? Exactly. So that's buying into the idea and kind of giving the fans what they want. But I think the players have to continue to buy into this idea. But like Emily was saying, ice hockey, I've gone out and watched, I used to live in America,

watch plenty of ice hockey games. And it really is. as spectacle. I mean, I watched it in America, but we know it's played across the world. But it's such spectacle that they put on a performance. The Americans really know how to put on a party. So for all of these potentially new female fans coming to watch it through the Ice Hockey Romance books, they're also then getting a real show. So I think, for your question, I think the sport and the players need to continue to kind of run with this idea and just see how they can maintain a fan base. they're going to probably still keep reading these books.

There's plenty. We know how massive romance genre is. So it's in terms of how long ice hockey can continue. And whether other sports are going to pick this up, you know, we could... They're onto a good thing here, aren't they? I think football might be a little bit different. I think that wouldn't land. One thing I was reading about was the fact that a lot of these ice hockey players are very accessible

in a way that maybe football stars are not... Now, is that because it remains a minority sport or it's just the kind of hospitable nature of the sport? Great question, because I think it's due to accessibility. For example, I was with the lionesses last night. Now, previously, over the last couple of years, they would be there, you know, signing autographs at the end of the game. And I even have so many people coming up to me like,

Katie, can you please get me an autograph with Serena Vigman, the England manager or Leo Williamson or whoever. And the players, due to their safety and just due to their high profile, really, you know, now the back-to-back Euro's champions. They head straight down the tunnel. They don't sign as many autographs. And it's due to, you know, massive credit to them, the profile and level that they've got to the game out.

So it is down to accessibility. And with ice hockey being a minority sport, any attention is good attention. And whether they're willing, it's up to the players to hang around and take signatures after the game. I think that's what it's down to because you're linking that connection

from the fictional character that you've read. I've just been listening. to it on audible and it was really good and then now I'm like now I really want to go and I want to finish the book and I want to finish the book and kind of make that a reality and I think all of us want that escapeism and if then you can put that into reality it's like watching a book and then going and see how they did it as a film you kind of want to join the dots because it feels quite complete and I think that's what this whole experience is when it comes to ice hockey fans and the female fan base just trying to kind of make that a complete experience

it was interesting you talk about being being grit because again something else that kind of drew me in was this idea about the main characters and almost how they they challenge what a serious sportsman might need to be so so you know one one aspect being you've got this handsome sports captain hunky sports captain who is equally vulnerable and romantic and fragile and this genre of romance allows him to explore those emotions. Emily, I don't know how much you've actually read the book, but I wonder what you make of that about how these sensual male characters are portrayed. I think it shows them as real people and brings like real conversations.

Like you can have the conversations about mental health and things like that. I know that in some of the books like the characters have been struggling with like things in their home life and things like that. So it makes it a real conversation. They're not just like something that you can go and look at but then I also think that relates into the game as well

you don't know what's going on in the players' lives off the ice they're doing a job for you when they play the game giving you like a performance playing the sport for you but you don't know what they're like in their home life as well but I agree that I feel like hockey players are a lot more

accessible in the sense that there's a lot of competitions in games where you can like meet a player after a game and a lot of elite league teams the players will walk out and they'll do the signatures and I try to portray them as much as real people as possible in the content that I produced with the teams as well I think it brings you a lot closer to them

I used to do little mini-mic videos and just ask them the most random questions just so that you know that they're like they are a real person with real interests besides that, because hockey is their job with different layers of emotions we asked at the start of the programme for people to send in their messages about

how they've come about being passionate about a hobby in an unexpected way. And this is off the back of this conversation here about romance novels leading to a greater interest in women attending ice hockey games. Maggie says, my life-changing activity came about by accident. When I bought a horse that was chained up next to the A-44, I rescued him and he changed my life. There you go. Caesar says, I'm a 60-year-old mom of three grown children. I started to learn how to DJ two years ago. The inspiration came from supporting my son

who was involved in a charity music festival when he was at university. I was fascinated by how the DJs mix their tracks and when I started. I didn't even know how to download well. Well, good luck with that, Susie. Sounds like you're really enjoying that. I try and squeeze in a couple of more.

I was at an air show and on a whim, I booked a 20-minute flight in a vintage airplane even though I am scared of heights and confined spaces. The short flight led me to start flying lessons. And last year, 860, I got up. my pilot license. That is incredible. I am now researching a woman flying instructor who taught my grandfather to fly in 1951. This just gets better. Thanks to finding his flying logbook, I've also traced the aircraft he learned to fly in some 70 years ago, and it is still flying in Iceland.

What a brilliant story. And this one from Rianne, who says, I took my mom to see an ice hockey match with my four teenage boys. She had dementia, was 90, and had no idea what she was going to, but she loved every second, especially the men crashing into the size with their hard hats. It gave her great excitement and a wonderful experience and fabulous memories for my sons of their grandma. Thanks for your message, Rian. And that's a really important point, isn't Katie? Just going back to how ice hockey differs, there's a real family atmosphere. Yes, a really family atmosphere.

And I think that's what's really important. That's probably also what's encouraged these female fans to come along, they'll feel accepted, they'll feel part of the experience. I go to about three football games a week as part of my career. And yes, there are times where it can be quite hostile, especially with the tribalism that is within football. And within ice hockey, it's a spectacle, it's a show. You've got DJs, you've got big screens.

You've got, you know, food and everyone kind of being part of this atmosphere. So I think also that is what has helped this female fan base really get on board with the sport because it's a fantastic sport. So once you're in, however you get in, whether it's your ice hockey romance books or just be part of the experience, you feel accepted. And I think that's what is really helping ice hockey just grow and bring in lots of new fans. Emily, did ice hockey find you in an unexpected way? Yeah, it did actually.

I was volunteering for a football club. And the goalkeeper was the media, the head of media, at an ice hockey team in the National League. And he was like, you would absolutely love it. you need to go to a game and I'd always wanted to get into it but it's I only well I was only really aware of the NHL which is so difficult to watch obviously with it being like the early hours of the morning for us and so we bought tickets to go to a leads nights game for my dad's birthday literally went to one game with my whole family and we were completely hooked on it so then we started going every week and then I ended up becoming a media volunteer for leads um so I've

actually only been into it for a few years but just because I feel like my family enjoyed it because it was a show. My mum's not massive into sports. She's not really into football like my dad and I are. But she loves like the whole like game day experience. There's lots of competitions. She can go and get a drink whenever she wants. And there's multiple breaks. So it's not too intense. Like you do 20 minutes and then you get a bit of a break. So yeah, I do think it's like the whole experience of a game day that keeps the fans going. You're making it sound really appealing. I've never been. We should go together. We should go together. And Katie, it found you in a more formal way through a sports scholarship?

Yes, yes. So I lived out in America. I had a hockey scholarship to the University of North Carolina and went and also just being out on ski holidays and stuff. So throughout my time in the States, whether that's through a hockey scholarship,

which was such an amazing experience. Living as a student athlete is like a dream come true. So I was playing England hockey at the time, played five years of England hockey, and then went into, I was scouted, the American scout head coach, the University of North Carolina the University of North Carolina

hockey team came over, scouted me while I was playing for England and then invited me to come out on a hockey scholarship and then I lived in America, had an amazing time and yeah, it was amazing to just be part of that student college atmosphere

and it really is. You play and are treated like a true professional so I had that amazing experience and then came back to England and carried on my England hockey career and now you're on women's out talking about romance novels And romance novels, he would have thought. And you know what, maybe in another life, I would have been an international ice hockey player. Yes, I'll be writing.

I'll be writing one next. It's an absolutely pleasure speaking to you both. Katie Shaddenhan and Emily Laylock on the growth of ice rocky romance. Ice rocky, ice hockey romance novels. Who knows? It might turn into ice hockey if it gets better. Pleasure having you both on the programme. Thank you for your time.

And thank you for your messages. This one says, I resisted joining a female walking netball group because they played early on Friday evenings. Fridays, I said to a friend. asking me to go with her. I had this notion that Fridays were precious. But I met the most fabulous group of diverse women with mine and my friend's membership of the group. We became Friday night regulars at the pub. This month we went on tour to Naples. In fact, we didn't play netball in the end, but we had the most amazing jolly. And I am now active and fitter and happier. Lovely. Thank you for your messages. Do keep them coming in. 84844 on the text messages.

here. Real stories of real complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stood myself on the floor. It's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden. Yeah. And I do look like my mother. Love Me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Now, there is a call to compensate women caught up in the scandal of faulty breast implants manufactured by a French company. It's become known as the PIP scandal. PIP is the name of the manufacturer who fraudulently filled the implants with industrial silicon instead of medical-grade silicon.

The implants are far more likely to rupture than others. And women fitted with them say they've caused a list of health problems. Women in the UK were alerted to this back in 2012. but campaigners say they could and should have been told earlier. MPs on the Women's and Equality's Committee have been hearing this during their inquiry into the health impacts of breast implants and other cosmetic procedures.

Well, I've been speaking about this to two people who gave evidence at that ongoing inquiry. Professor Carl Hennigan from the Centre of Evidence-Based Medicine and Jan Spivey from the PIP Action Campaign. Professor Hennigan told me why he thinks women impacted should get compensation. Well, look, people will be aware recently, if you had a car loan up until about 2017, that the Financial Conduct Authority has said that we're going to compensate people for mis-selling of loans.

Now, what that key has done is said somebody is responsible, but it's also said, actually, I don't think this is going to happen again because the consequences of that going badly wrong are going to lead to a massive compensation that's going to cost $8.2 billion. So we live in a society where, if you, you have a car and you missold alone, you treated more seriously than a woman who has an implant that is seriously gone wrong, not in a sort of like, oh, you're a missold alone and lost some money. You have an implant that has industrial-grade silicone that should never have

got through the regulatory process and should never have been implanted in women. So if we don't hold somebody accountable, there's nothing to stop this happening again. Who should be doing the compensating, though. If you think it's the NHS, surely there are budgetary concerns there. This is a failure of regulation. So it comes straight from our MHRA. So it's a governmental responsibility. I mean, the proportion of pip implants that were put in by the NHS is small, but it's still significant. So I think we're looking here at a governmental responsibility that our systems of regulation are just not safe and not fit for purpose. And this is the really scary thing, is that this could happen all over again.

Let me bring, Jan, you into the conversation. You've campaigned about this for a very long time since 2012. You yourself have had the implants fitted. When the news of this fraud broke in the UK, just explain what steps are in place, what reaction it received, especially compared to France. I received PIP implants as well. part of my breast cancer reconstructive surgery that I had with the NHS.

And the difference between the way that the UK reacted in contrast to France is really stark. So when the police raided the PIP factory in Marseilles, that took place in March of 2010. And it wasn't much later until just before Christmas in 20. 2011, that news about the planned French response reached the UK, saying that women were likely to be recalled. In France, PIP were recognised as a public health emergency, and that very significant delay of almost two years in the UK resulted in a far less supportive reaction. Women were left to fund their own removals. They were told that the risks of the implants were very low, even though they contained this industrial-grade silicone.

And the lack of urgency in care has had lasting consequences for thousands of women in the UK. And as I mentioned, you yourself have had the PIP implants fitted. What impact has this had on you personally? Since PIP, I've learned my own implants were sent for analysis. in Italy, and it was discovered that my implants didn't have what's known as an anti-bleed barrier, which meant that as soon as those implants were my body, they were leaking silicone into my system. And I've had very serious health consequences, including a failed recovery from breast cancer. Silicon migration is a major issue with these implants. In my case,

my implants didn't have to rupture for those in effects to start affecting me, which happened practically immediately. But my implants were leaking for many years and I was sick like many women for many years before the issue really came to light. This is what the Department of Health told us. They said patient safety remains our top priority and we are working with the MHRA to ensure we are protecting the health and well-being of patients, including a cosmetic breast augmentation risk awareness tool to keep patients informed.

What do you make of that, Carl? I just think that the statement is messaging and marketing to try and put us off the main message here. Jan was dead right about the France, but I want to also mention the US system. Back in 2000, the US FDA did an inspection of the plant and discovered huge problems with manufacturing processes, and they then sent a letter to the PIP manufacturers in 2000. What that meant is the company to cover it up decided not to sell it in the USA. So the USA, you don't hear about PIPP in Blanc because it didn't get out there. And then there was a 10-year gap where they were free to put this on the market.

So they're huge disparities between a system like the US FDA, which is much more rigorous about patient safety and our system. And so, Carl, are you saying that is? it should be the regulator's responsibility to spot criminal activity here. Yeah, let me give you one example. In America, they require a clinical trial to approve these products. Here you can use what's called equivalence. My product's a bit similar to what's already on the market.

As Jan said, what you can do is make subtle changes. Actually, what they did do is reduce the cost by 90% by using the industrial-grade silicone. and nobody got notified by that at the regulator. Can you imagine making such a big change and it wasn't legally required for you to notify the MHRA, for instance? This is how lax our system is, and so that loophole allows you to produce products

that lead to what's called this gel bleed and the small micro-silicon that leak into your body, and then it's years before you notice the problem. I want to probe a bit more as to why, the situation, the concerns about PIP implants might not be taken seriously enough if that is the case. And Jan, I'll turn to you. In your case, you have the implants for medical for health reasons. Others choose to do it for cosmetic reasons. Do you think that plays a part in the way this conversation is unfolding? I don't think that it's appropriate to start dividing women into

groups as to whether or not they deserve care or medical attention when they clearly do have medical requirements related to these implants. Carl, what is the treatment available both on the NHS and around the world when it comes to women who have these implants? What's available to them? Well, I'll tell you one thing that should be available mandatory is what they recommend in America. If you have one of these implants, you should have an MRI scan for years after the first implant and one every two years from there on. So you get regular follow-up and those MRI scan can spot these problems as they emerge before it's too late. Now the problem with the MRI scans is that cost more than the actual implant in the initial phase. And so this is if we were

being appropriate about patient safety, what we should now be doing is enacting a monitoring plan where we now say, look, we're going to do these MRI scans and we're going to make sure patients are safe, but incredibly important that they're informed at the same time about the risks. But those scans, Carl, will cost money and everything comes down to money, doesn't it? Yeah, but look, let's put it this way. The time lag between exposure and harms is what will happen is those harms will increase over time.

So, for instance, there's a particular thing with this new texture. plant, which is a certain type of lymphoma. It takes about 10 years for it to develop. So as you wait longer and longer, the cost consequences will get greater and greater. And so the sort of do-nothing approach, I tell you, will just end up costing you much, much more money in the end. The MHRA has said in a letter to an MP that they worked with the NHS and other health partners to ensure the PIP issue was properly investigated. And the authority added that it is important to note that while PIP implants are associated with a higher risk of rupture which can lead to symptoms such as tenderness or swollen lip glands, that there is no evidence linking ruptured

PIP implants to serious long-term health issues. Carl, what do you think of that? Anybody who says no evidence is basically saying we've systematically failed to take this seriously and collect the right data and the right evidence. This is an area that's under-researched. The original 2012 report had lots of limitations and at the time, they said they made safety messages that were backed up by the evidence. We now find ourselves 10 plus years later without a systematic approach to assessing the harms. The last really substantial report was 13 years ago. There's been no update since so nobody can tell you when they say no evidence. They're basically saying, yes, there is no

evidence. Therefore, everything is uncertain. We can't inform you. We have a culture which seems to be when it comes to harm to being dismissive. Jan, in 2012, there was an expert report into the harms caused by PIP Implans. You're calling for that report to be withdrawn. Just explain why. By 2012, the French had already started a recall program for over 30,000 women. So when the UK makes statements that evidence wasn't available, it most certainly was. In the UK, the 2012 report was fundamentally.

flawed. It reassured women that there was no evidence of harm, but it was based on limited, incomplete, and sometimes misleading data. And that information has not been updated for 13 years. So the refrain of the authorities that there is no evidence is really just reflecting on the fact that the British haven't taken the matter seriously and have not been collecting the evidence, which has been accumulating in the NHS and in the Department of Health. Do we know, Carl, how many women still have PIP? Is there any kind of register? The problem is the current registry was proposed in 1993.

He didn't start the breast implant registry until 2016. It's a bit tokenistic in its approach. It produces reports that says, well, we've got 20 cases of cancer, but we're not sure if that's associated with the breast implant. implant and it doesn't have all of the 47,000 women because most of them are before 2016 in the register. So it doesn't know who's got what implant, it doesn't know which women have got the pip implant and it certainly can't tell us about the consequences of those. In the UK we did have a breast implant registry that was functioning until 2006. That registry was recording a lot of

information on including names and addresses and I know this because I was included on that original register. Regrettably, funding was removed from the register in 2006, which meant that the MHRA had no means or method for getting in contact with women. But the importance of that registry is regulatory, like any medical device, anything that's going to be implanted into the body. You not only have to follow certain test and checks before that or theoretical test that should be followed, but you also want to examine and research that product when it's in use. By removing the breast implant registry in 2006 for lack of funding, it left a gap in being able to contact women and inform them, but also to monitor that device in action, which is a

real failure. I want to put this Department of Health statement to you. They say we are also taking decisive action to crack down on rogue operators putting people's health and well-being at risk. New regulations will ensure only properly qualified healthcare professionals can perform the highest risk cosmetic procedures. For anyone with breast implants or considering breast implant surgery, it's important to understand the risks and speak to their healthcare professional about any symptoms or questions. Jan, they seem to think that maybe there is no need for this current inquiry. What are you hoping to achieve? From the inquiry, I would really like to justice and recognition for the women that are affected

and a commitment that this will never happen again. We need an update of that 2012 report and we also need a full investigation into the long-term effects that PIP is having and much more really needs to be done now to fill the void that has existed for 13 years. That was Jan Spivey from PIP Action Campaign and Professor Carl Hennigan

from the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine. We asked for a Minister to join us on the programme, but no one was available. We also asked the MHRA for a statement but haven't heard back. We do know, though, that the MHRA is working towards implementing a future regime for medical device regulation. They say this will support the proactive safety monitoring of devices, which would include implants, increase transparency, and allow the MHRA to identify safety risks sooner. A story that we will keep an eye on. Next, in a new BBC Radio 4 documentary, historian and presenter Matthew Sweet talks about his new discovery, the diaries of Queen Victoria's doctor.

They throw light on the inner life and mental health of one of Britain's most research monarchs. Matthew himself has studied her for over 30 years. Queen Victoria's nightmares examines these unpublished and unresearch documents revealing her closely guarded mental health struggles. A factual account in the personal records of Dr. Robert Ferguson that were never intended for. publication. But these struggles come shortly after the birth of her second child, Bertie, or Albert Edward, Prince of Wells, born in 1841. And given what we have learned about her symptoms, could the monarch have been dealing with what's known as postpartum psychosis, a condition known to impact one to two in a thousand women after giving birth? Let's talk about all of this with Matthew Sweet

himself and also Sarah Taha, who is a consultant perinatal psychiatrist working in West London and is the Vice Chair of the Perinatal Faculty at the Royal College of Psychiatrists. Welcome to you both. Hello. Good morning. Good morning. Matthew, I'll start with you. These have been kept in private hands for such a long time.

First of all, what drew you to want to learn more about them? Well, I first, I didn't discover these documents personally. An academic, Polish academic, called Marios Mischdahl, is the first person to write about them. An extraordinary, it seems like the only person to have written about them in NED. They were in private hands, and then the Royal College of Physicians acquired them at auction in 2009. They've sort of been sitting there, which is incredible to me. Why? Well, because there's a lot of documents in the world, I guess.

And it takes somebody, an academic like Mariosch, to grab hold of them and be the first person to look at them and read them and examine what's there. And what's in there is kind of dynamite, I think. And what do they tell us about Queen Victoria's mental health? Well, they tell us that it was imperiled and that she feared for her sanity. They tell us that Ferguson was brought in because there were worries about how she was feeling after she had given birth to Bertie. And that this wasn't just physical suffering. This was mental suffering too because he'd written about this. He was, although he wasn't kind of a mental pathologist, exactly, he was, he was an accoucher, what we would call an obstetrician.

But it was known that he had an interest in matters of the mind. and he was brought in for a consultation two weeks after Bertie's birth. Sarah, I'll turn to you, Victoria was just 22 years old when, well, she was a 22-year-old mother of two, in fact, when Dr. Ferguson was called to see her. This was two weeks after the birth of her son Bertie, as we've mentioned. And Ferguson describes Prince Albert as pale in Haggard telling him, and I quote, The Queen has heard you have paid much attention to mental disease, and she's afraid she's about to lose her mind. she sees visions and hears sounds she thinks of worms eating her

and is weeping and wretched now listening to that and considering she has just given birth I wonder if there is a possibility that she could have been dealing with postpartum psychosis or PPP explain if you think that's possible considering the fact that we are talking about this some 200 years later of course

so yeah I mean it's difficult based on the limited information but I think what's quite striking about the description, is it such a dramatic change in her mental health very soon after she has a baby? And what we know about postpartum psychosis is that it is a severe mental illness that often starts dramatically in the early postnatal period, sometimes within hours, days or weeks of having a baby. And women experience a range of symptoms. So they have mood changes. So their mood can become very low and depressed.

and some of that is described, but also they can have quite high-related mood. And they also have psychotic symptoms, so delusions, believing things that aren't real, and hallucinations, seeing things, hearing things, feeling things that aren't there. They're often also quite confused or perplexed and can be really frightened, so it's a really scary time for them. So some of what's described in postpartum psychosis does kind of align with what's written in the diary. What causes it? So we don't know exactly what causes postpartum psychosis.

What we do know is that having a baby is a major transition. And it's likely that there are genetic factors that predispose some women. We also know that sleep disruption is really significant, likely hormonal changes and immune changes in the body. But essentially, we need a lot more research. to fully understand. But I guess also important to say that there are certain groups of women that we know are at more risk or have a higher chance of having a postpartum psychosis, such as women who have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder or who've had a previous psychotic illness.

Okay, really helpful information. Matthew, these conversations, they were written down and he was recording what he had seen, observed and the conversations he had had. Did that go against any kind of code of conduct or breaking of trust? He weren't really meant to keep a diary if you were working within the royal circles. But he was sort of a freelancer, really, although he attended the Queen often. He was never kind of directly employed by her. And he wrote it down, he kept it secret.

And so I think that we should be grateful to him, really. There is a sort of transgression here. But it's one of the very few documents that can take us into the mind of a monarch. And as Sarah was saying, we can't kind of apply our diagnostic categories to people who lived and died so long ago. But what we have here is really such a close description of the auditory and visual hallucinations that Victoria is suffering. These worms, coffins, spots appearing on people's faces, auditory hallucinations of people shouting at her, always in German, a language actually that Ferguson spoke as well as Albert, of course. And so it's such a rare kind of account that we have.

And we'd known for a long time, sort of through slightly gossipy accounts that Victoria, and from her own letters, that she'd suffered, that her nerves were shattered. That's the kind of language that they would have used. That she dreaded pregnancy, although obviously in her life she was pregnant for quite a lot of it. But we've never really had an account that allows us to see what she, I must ask you, Sarah, as we approach the end of the program, how can postpartum psychosis be treated? So it's really important to say that it is a very treatable condition. There are various ways in which we treat women who have postpartum psychosis. Usually they require an admission to a specialist mother and baby

unit. Medication is used to treat the mood symptoms and the psychosis, but also there are a range of therapies that we would use. And really, what's really important is that we support women with their relationship with their baby whilst they're recovering from their mental illness. Matthew and Sarah, thank you both for joining us here on the program. And Queen Victoria's Nightmares is available on BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds is also where you can catch up with any woman's hours you might have missed. Anita will be with you tomorrow.

She's finding out how cooking is helping women who are in recovery from alcohol. addiction. There's plenty more as well. She'll also be looking at, or talking to you the Irish novelist Chloe Michelle Haworth about her latest book, Heap Earth Upon It, about a family dealing with its secrets in 1960s rural Ireland. But for now, that is it from today's edition of Women's Hour. Thank you for your company and do enjoy the rest of your day. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Do join us again next time. How did Bruce Springsteen become the boss? And what did it cost him to get there? Maybe I was the guy that gets the guitar, I get the car, I get the girl, then it adds up to

a big, so what? From the makers of the award-winning first season of legend, join me, Laura Barton, for the story of my favorite artist, Bruce Springsteen. We'll get to know the life beyond the legend to discover how a scrawny, long-haired introvert from small-town New Jersey transformed into the iconic rock star figure of his 18. glory. We're all going, he has muscles now, which was a little hard to take because we were scrawny. Do we have to go get muscles? Legend, the Bruce Springsteen story from BBC Radio 4. Listen first on BBC Sounds.

A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep, I think I cried almost every day. I just stood myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love Me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.