Woman's Hour - 30/05/2025

Episode Date: May 30, 2025

The programme that offers a female perspective on the world

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Now this morning we'll be discussing who might become the new head of MI6 secret intelligence service. We're expecting a decision soon, although details as you might expect aren't entirely forthcoming. But it's believed a woman could become the head of the organisation for the very first time in its 115-year history. I'll be speaking to guests who know the Spire community well. Also, Mary Earps. She shocked sports fans when she announced that she was retiring from playing for England earlier this week. It comes less than

five weeks out from the European Championships, where the Lionesses were hoping to defend their trophy and so it leaves them without one of the best goalkeepers in the world. So what's led to this decision? Is some of the criticism regarding her timing warranted? We'll discuss. Plus a possible boost for breast cancer patients after a new blood test that could help develop more personalised treatment. And you might know her from her roles in Maestro or Promising Young Woman. Oscar nominated actor Kerry Mulligan talks to Woman's Hour about her new film The Ballad of Wallace Island, which is released in cinemas today. As always, you can get in touch with us about anything you hear on the programme this morning.

You can text us on 84844. Remember that texts will be charged at your standard message rate. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or a voice note on 03 700 100 444. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour and as always you can email us through our websites. All of that to come this morning, but first. Two deeply disturbing cases in France have reignited national debates about how the justice system handles sexual violence and whether it's doing enough to protect victims. In December last year Dominique P Pelico admitted to repeatedly drugging and raping his wife Chazelle while she was unconscious and inviting neighbours to do the same. This

week Joelle Lesquanek, a retired surgeon, was sentenced to a maximum of 20 years in jail for sexually abusing almost 300 victims, mostly children, from 1989 to 2014. Now because Lesquanek has already served seven years, he may be eligible for parole by 2030. His victims have spoken out about this sentence and lawyers have called for a change in the law so that there can be more appropriate sentences. Joining me now is blonde Dean Devalange, a feminist activist and founder of Les Amazons d'Avignon who followed both cases and a BBC correspondent Hugh Schofield who's in Paris for us. Good morning to you first. Hugh let me come to you first please because this is the second case in recent months featuring historical sexual abuse. So what's been the

reaction in France? Well, horror, as everywhere in the world people have been absolutely distraught and disgusted by what they've discovered. The cases are very different. One is of a man who used the internet to contact neighbours who could come and rape his sleeping wife. And the other was of a real paedophile, someone obsessed with young children's bodies, who as a doctor was able to touch them and get sexual gratification from that while they were under an aesthetic mainly. So I mean two absolutely horrendous stories and of course the reaction of the vast majority of French people has been one of total disgust and horror and yes I suppose some sense of you know why these two cases together at the same time is there a link. It's quite hard to find a

link because they are so completely different but it is odd that two such massive sexually related stories have come together so closely in time. And focusing particularly on this case with the retired surgeon at Luskwanec, there's been a lot of criticism around this case, hasn't it? From the way the victims were approached, to the sentencing itself. What can you tell us about that? Well, there's been a lot of criticism from the victims' families, indeed. They've organized, they are obviously distraught and angry that this could go on so long, and they're angry in particular that certain clues were not followed up earlier on. I think you have to remember in this case that there is something very specific about it, which is there was no complaint from any of the victims. The victims were all or nearly all under anesthetic. They had no idea that

they were being abused. So that's why there wasn't any complaint from anyone. But nonetheless, there were clues. And the biggest clue of all was that in 2005, Joela Skwanek was convicted of downloading pornographic, pedophile pornographic imagery. So, and yet, even though this was known to people in the medical establishment, they didn't think it necessary to stop him, or at least remove him from working with children.

That's the sort of thing that has very much angered families and this sense that as a doctor, as a male doctor, he was sacrosanct and that maybe the suspicions of some of the children, something that happened to them were never followed followed up. All that has got people very angry. Plus this sentencing, yes. But the judge said, look, my hands are tied. I've 20 years max is all I can give. That means I'm out after 14 years. That means with time served already, that's out in, say, six years. He says, I can't... The judge said they couldn't do anything about that. So the pressure is now to change the law to make parliamentarians take this on and increase the mandatory penalty for this kind of crime.

Blondine, good morning. As I mentioned there, Squinec could be eligible for parole by 2030. So what's your reaction to this story, but also to the 20 year sentence. Oh, 2020 in theory, but probably 13 in reality, 13 years in prison for raping over 300 children. This is not justice. This is a slap in the face of the victim and a reminder that children and women do not count in our society. The justice system serves men and not the vulnerable. The judge said, as Hugh Schofield there just pointed out, that he said his hands are tied, he can only give 20 years. Do you feel, Blondine, that the law is fit for purpose?

No. Blondine that the law is fit for purpose? No, the law has to be changed when there are serial rapists, criminals like in the Pellico trial or like in this trial. The law doesn't fit, it's not possible to treat a man who committed 300 rapes exactly the same as a man who committed one rape. Even one rape is too many, but 300 victims, I think it's insulting for them to be treated like that. And Hugh, is there any indication that the law might change when it comes to the length of sentences that are handed out for these types of crimes?

I'm not sure. Well, not immediately, but there is pressure now and I think there are no doubt meetings that will be going on between activists, the families and so on, and members of the government. It'll be taken up by parties in parliaments, I'm sure, but no immediate prospect of that, I don't think, but we'll just have to see. And the victims of Luskwanec, the collective group, have spoken out to say that the trial had failed to capture the detention of politicians and society at large. Hugh, how do you reflect on that? Is that your understanding as well? Well I think one needs to be, I mean with all due respect and for the utterly understandable anger of all the families, you know I

think that they were making comparison with the Pellico trial and undoubtedly the Pellico trial did attract far more interest around the world and in France, but I think that's understandable. I mean, the Pellico trial was an absolutely extraordinary case. Both were extraordinary cases, but the Pellico trial was something new in the sense that for the first time, you know, it was an internet age sex crime. It was a man contacting people via the internet internet with you know and that the way that the pornography has entered our lives and has corrupted minds and the ease with

which he's able to do this via social media and so on all this was you know spoke to our times nothing like this had ever ever happened before Peli co as a the Skránik it's a paedophile trial, it's absolutely grotesque in its proportions, but you know he was a paedophile in the classic sense of a paedophile. What's new was the scale. I need to make sure that also to say one thing about this word rape which is very very sensitive. In French law rape is not necessarily rape as we would understand in the English vernacular. So I always state this because it does give a slightly wrong impression.

You say he raped 300 children. He abused 300 children and violated their bodies. But just without in any way diminishing what he did, it was not rape in vernacular British sense of the term, but obviously an incalculably horrible crime that he did over all these years. And Blondine, how do you feel French society has reacted to this? There have been some victims who have spoken out to say that perhaps French society doesn't take these types of crimes as seriously as they might.

Obviously, it's not taken as seriously as it should because there has been very few actions around the trial. In Avignon, I am in Avignon, so I was at the Pellico trial. I was there every day and in the courts and in the streets and in the media. During the Le Square Neck trial there was almost nothing and I think it made the difference. Why is that? Why is there nothing? I think there is quite a large indifference. People don't care. It's only children. It were children and now they are adults.

They are grown up. They are not dead. So where is the problem? It was a good surgeon, you know? So it's women have, and women and children have to organize to make, to amplify victims' voices. make to amplify victims' voices, we have to build a true feminist counter power against this patriarchal violence, because it's not dysfunction. In fact, it's not justice, but it's patriarchal justice.

It functions exactly at its should, because we are in a patriarchal society. So where is the problem? The politicians don't care. They don't care. In fact, really. So there is a lack of democracy. Politicians don't care about children. They don't care about women.

And when they hear the word feminists, they think, you know, they are Nazis or hysterical women. But in fact, we have to organize to be a real counter power to fight this indifference, which is really guilty. So this equality and this equity that you're calling for, how do you encourage that to happen? Does this start at the grassroots level as yourself, Blondine, as you're doing as an activist, or does this start at the judicial level where you encourage lawmakers to make changes?

Yeah, I think it's on every level. I am a grassroot feminist, so I make actions in the streets and I meet medias like you and I speak to people. I want them to understand how important it is to change things. But effectively, we have to organize and to propose laws. In fact, in France there is a proposition of a series of laws to protect women in the justice system. And we want all these laws to be adopted. But in fact, for the moment, we don't have even a meeting with the minister, you know. But we propose many things, education, medical measures for the police, for the justice, and everything that has to be changed.

It's not only a single measure or something which will make the politician look more than a progressive. Everything has to be changed. It will be a hard work, but we have to face the truth. And the truth is that society is violent toward women and children. Yes. Yes. And Hugh, just to finish, because we've had these historical abuse cases in quite quick succession, do you feel that we might we've had these historical abuse cases in quite quick succession, do you feel that we might see more of these come up now in the future? I hope not, and I'm not sure that we should draw too much of a pattern in this. They're both uniquely horrible in their own ways.

I think there is one thing that they have in common, which is computers and lists kept by the guilty parties, that was the tool which led the police to identifying what had happened. The Squaneck and Pellico both, in their own obsessed way, kept these records, these files of what they'd done. That's something which is unique to modern day times. That might open the door to more revelations, I don't know. But I hope that these were both uniquely horrible cases

which are not part of a pattern. Yes. Hugh Scafield, BBC correspondent, thank you very much. And Blondeen Devalange, activist. Thank you for coming on to Women's Hour this morning. And of course, if you have been affected by anything that you have heard so far on the programme, there are links to support on the BBC Action Line website. Now three-time Oscar nominee, Carey Mulligan, known for roles in films such as Maestro, Promising Young Woman and Suffragette, returns to our cinema screens in the comedy drama The Ballad of Wallace Island. An eccentric lottery winner dreams of reuniting his favourite folk duo. Kerry plays one half of that duo and she sings. Her co-stars Tom Basden and Tim Key wrote

the screenplay. Kerry came into the Woman's Hour studio to speak to Anita and she started off by telling her about her character, Nell. Nell is one part of the band that's, you know, Maguire Mortimer were a pretty successful folk band 10 years prior. They were a couple and I think it's never explicit, but you know, in the story you get the idea that they broke up and parted ways musically at the same time because Herb had ambitions to be very, very famous and Nell didn't so much. And so they've kind of gone in opposite directions and Nell's now married, living in Portland, Oregon and has a, you know, sells chutney in a farmer's market and Herb is just desperately

trying to stay relevant with his music career and is going off in really bad directions with that. And so they're brought back together and I come in a little bit into the film. We've already established Tim and Tom's characters. Charles is Tim Key, who is obsessed with this band for lots of reasons and Tom plays Herb, who's the star, or sort of fading star. And Charles is driving him mad and it's really, really awkward and awful.

And Nell arrives and sort of finds him quite charming. Yes. And he didn't know that Nell was arriving. Was expecting me. Herb was not expecting Nell to arrive. No. Is this my guitar? No.

No, got that at auction. It's the one you recorded way back when on. Oh wow, you are a fan. I am. In fact, Herb, if you do get a second, I wouldn't mind getting your paw print on that, please. Have you got anything of mine? Sorry, what?

Do you have anything of mine? Yeah. What is it? Is it creepy? It's hair, yeah. Hair? It's the look of your hair, yes. Oh my God. Yes. It's the look of your hair. Yes. Oh my god. Yes. It's about navigating the tension between nostalgia and holding on to the past and moving on because as you say she's married

Moved on and he still very much has feelings for her and hasn't moved on. Yeah, and they're both kind of I think Charles and Herb are both sort of living in the past. And Nell's quite sort of comfortable in the present and has found other ways to be creative and isn't sort of necessarily that concerned about being known for what she does, just sort of enjoying what she does. She brings joy to the screen. Not least because I just really appreciated

what she was wearing. She's free spirited. I wonder how much of an input you had in that? Well, we had an amazing costume designer. I had a very small baby, so my key requirements were outfits that would open up so I could feed a baby and things that were quite loose and billowy, which suited her. She is kind of a farmer's market. We imagined that lots of her clothes were sort of secondhand, thrift store, thrift store, you know, vintage kind of stuff. So it was fun. She was, she was colorful.

You had a 10 week old baby, Kerry. I did. And this film was shot in 18 days in Wales. Yes. And baby, you, baby was with you? She was there the whole time. Yeah. How wonderful that you could make it work. It was amazing. And that was the thing.

So when Tim offered me the job, I just said, I'd love to do it, but I, you know, it might be a bit of a logistical nightmare for you guys because I'm going to have a baby that will just be there the whole time. So I'll have to go off and feed her and be with her when she needs me. And they were just great. They were just up for it and so sweet. Filmed in Wales, the beach location was 10 minutes from 10B, which is where all my childhood

holidays were. Great place. The house, Great place. Great place. The house was in the town that my mum was born in, you know, so it was all very familiar. All my family were there. Was that coincidence or did they find it the location before? Those were real coincidences. We knew that it was going to be sort of Pembrokeshire coast, but these two exact locations, it was kind of crazy that it happened to be those places. Because the backdrop, the setting, the feel of the film is just as beautiful as the story.

Yeah. Wales is just gorgeous. And you are exceptional in it, as you are in everything I see you in, because you make it look, you make your skill look effortless. And in kind of reading around you as a person before you came into Women's Out today, what struck me is that your tenacity into getting into this career in the first place. Thank you. Because, you know, I relate.

My parents also didn't want me to, you know, for a career with maybe not as much sort of security as others And but you stuck at it and you were really young when you started. Yeah, I was 18 when I started and wrote letters wrote yeah, I Did write letters. I just always thought you know, it's not just gonna happen I just wanted to give myself as much of a chance I didn't have you know anyone in my life who'd ever acted or done anything in the sort of creative industries. And so I just, I knew I needed to knock doors down and prove myself. Where does that come from? That fearlessness?

I don't know if it was fearlessness or that I just didn't think that there was anything else that would make me happy. I was, you know, I'm always sort of kind of impressed by people who fall into this job who are like, I was kind of doing this thing and then I ended up acting like what how did that I've just been desperate to do it since I before I even knew it was a job I just knew it's all I loved doing so I think I just sort of felt like there was nothing else that I would that would I that would give me a sort of joy in that you know it's just my favorite thing to do yeah well you're absolutely doing the thing that you were meant to do.

But another thing you do, because you are playing a folk singer in it, is sing. I do, yeah. Did I read that you wanted to be a singer on Broadway before anything else? That was my, yeah, well I grew up sort of wanting to do musical theatre first, because I did sort of am-dram, you know, school stuff and then kind of drama clubs on the weekend when I was a kid. I never did anything professional till I left school, but I did do that stuff and that was always musicals and I loved it. And I love musicals more than anything in the world. I'll go and see a musical before I'll see anything else. Okay, favourite musical you've got to...

Les Miserables. I went and used to buy £10 tickets when I was a kid and sit in the gods like when I was about 14, 15 years old. I just loved it and so that was my sort of big dream and then I think after a while I was like I don't think I can dance really and I and I I can sing but like I can sing in a choir you know I don't have a sort of I can't belt stuff out the way that you need to or but then singing has found its way into jobs that I've done over the years and I've always loved it. I've always found it very, very nerve wracking from the outset and then always ended up loving

it. And when you got the script through from Tim for this, when did the music arrive? When did you hear what you'd be singing? Some of the songs are in the short. So Raspberry Fair is in the short and that's in the film. Tom just started sending songs over and yeah, I loved them. You know, the power of music so that you can disappear into that melancholy space and that deep emotional connection when you're going through something very traumatic as the lead, Tim Key's character is, and this is experiencing a lot of loneliness.

For those people who don't know, your husband is Marcus Mumford from Mumford and Sons. Was he able to give you any advice, any support for this role when it came to singing? Yeah, he was great. I mean, you know, he loved all the songs. I love the music world so much. I'm, you know, I feel definitely very much on the outside of it, but I'm around it obviously a lot. And I'm, and when I see Marcus playing with people, we'll be at a festival or something and he'll will be backstage and then he'll just start someone will pick up a guitar and he'll pick up a guitar and they'll start singing and I always think it's the most incredible thing just to be able to start making music together with someone that you don't know because you both

know one song the same and you can harmonize together and so it's the kind of world that I I feel so romantic and I love it so much and so getting to sort of play with it a bit in this film was so nice and it felt very familiar. He was the ballad of Wallace Island cheerleader from the beginning. Not just your husband Marcus but also Richard Curtis. Oh yeah. He's named it as one of his favorite films of all time. What do you make of that? That's the most amazing. That's huge support. Yeah it's huge. All I ever wanted to do was being in a be in Richard Curtis film that my whole career and I tell him that to this day. And? He's not

directing at the moment. I'm saying it's not it's it's not irreversible I'm working on him. Especially as it's some film that's been made on such a small budget. Yeah and in 18 days so 18 days is by about seven days the shortest shoot I've ever done. We've mentioned a couple of times that you filmed it 10 weeks after giving birth to your third child. Five years ago you spoke out about the lack of childcare on film sets and how that was limiting women's careers. Has there been any change? No, not really. Oh dear. No. No, I still, you know, I still just, even the fact that I was able to do that is just

completely extraordinary. And it's, you know, not the case at all across the board. So yeah, that hasn't really shifted. And it does limit people's female crew, female actor performances and things, or ability to participate in work. So no, I haven't really seen a shift in that. You also, five years ago, questioned why every woman on screen has to look like a supermodel. Why don't we allow women to look normal?

Any change there? I think so. I think that is, yeah, I do think there's change there. I also think, you know, I believe we're moving in the right direction. I think there's lots more interesting roles for women. A lot on TV, you know, TV becoming so huge and so many massive TV shows have now got such great writing for women. Your Doctor Who episode is one of the greatest, being voted one of the greatest of all, hasn't it?

Yeah. Congratulations. Thanks so much. How does that compare to everything else that you've done? I loved doing Doctor Who so much. So I'm always thrilled when people sort of say that they like that episode. You know, it's such escapism and delighted. And how do you decide between, you know, when you're splitting your time between a good TV script and a film script or a play. Really just writing and then having a good boss,

having a good director, you know, someone that you trust and is gonna take care of everyone, you know, performances and also just have a really great relationship with the crew, because I think the more I work, the more I realize that it matters how everyone on set feels. So the feeling of everyone on set working together and making something together, I find walking into that kind of environment I feel really confident. You turned 40 this week.

Yes. Happy birthday for yesterday. How was it spent? Working. No, it was great. I had time with my family and then I spent most of the day with Tim and Tom talking about our film and then we had our premiere and then I spent most of the day with Tim and Tom talking about our film and then we had our premiere and then I went for dinner. How do you feel about turning 40? I feel great. I woke up at sort of right before midnight the night before because I'm a bit jet-lagged because I've been working and I just felt, you know,

it sounds so trite but I felt unbelievably grateful for just being so lucky and having, you know, such wonderful family and friends. And I just felt like, oh, what a pretty great. And I've, yeah, I've kind of loved it. Yeah. Yeah. It's always an interesting one when women turn 40, but particularly in a career like yours, where so much of it is based on, you know, aging, and we talk about it all the time. Just I intrigued to know how does a woman feel but feeling great is good someone once said to me the woman you are at 40 is not the woman you are at 50 when I turned 40 I didn't know what they meant but 47 I think I'm kind of getting the idea oh really yeah yeah it's weird I was so sort of programmed to fear it

and to be to feel negatively. I do think when you look at what's going on in the world and and you even look around you in your life and you see what people go through and with health issues or you know just think gosh every every year really is just the most extraordinary blessing so I'm sort of riding high. I'm also making it sort of a birthday month, I suppose, because you get to do that for big ones, right? You don't have to just have a day. Make it the year. It's a festival, really. All year, 40th year. My year of 40. Please, continuously celebrate, you must. And you're working with Greta Gerwig next on The Chronicles of Narnia. This is very exciting, talking about

great directors, women. Can you tell us anything about it? Not much yet because it's very new, so I'm sort of not really into the process yet, but I just think she is so brilliant and I've always wanted to work with her. I wanted to work with her when she was acting and everything that she's directed has just been inspired. So she was just on this list of just people that just, it make my year or decade to work with and so I'm so excited. Yeah, I think that's quite a power couple, the two of you together. So we're all looking forward to that. And if you could have a band just play for you, who would it be?

It would be the Backstreet Boys. Yes! I mean, it really would. Because I, Marcus played the SNL 50 gig and I couldn't go because I was working and I was with a family and so I didn't go and I was like, oh quite sad not to go. And then I had friends who went and the Backstreet Boys played and I was devastated because they were sending me videos and they were within five feet of the Backstreet Boys having the time of their lives and I was so annoyed that I wasn't there. So it would have to be the Backstreet Boys having the time of their lives and I was so annoyed that I wasn't there. So it would have to be the Backstreet Boys. That is a very solid choice. Carrie Mulligan

speaking to Anita and the ballad of Wallace Island is in cinemas from today. Now at some point soon the Secret Intelligence Service, commonly known as MI6, will appoint a new person to the role that they call C. Now we don't know when the announcement will be and we don't know for certain who is on the shortlist. They seem to like keeping secrets in the world of spies, clearly, but it's looking very likely that the next MI6 chief could be a woman for the first time in their 115 year history. Here to tell us what we do know and the significance of the appointments is Gordon Carrera, the BBC's former security correspondent and now

co-host of the Rest is Classified podcast and Ava Glass who has worked closely with the espionage community before becoming an acclaimed spy novelist. Good morning to you both. Good morning. Good to have you in the studio. Gordon, let me start with you. What can we actually say then about the front runners and do we actually definitely know that it's an all-female shortlist? Well those are the reports and you are absolutely right that as ever they try to keep this very tight-lipped. Now one of the candidates has been named in the in the press as Dame Barbara Woodward, who is a former ambassador to China and permanent representative to the United Nations, so a Foreign Office diplomat.

And for that reason, her name is public, even though her position on the short list is never actually confirmed, as they don't like doing that thing. But then there are thought to be two internal candidates within MI6 who are both women. That's at least the report and they are not named because that is the kind of convention, is that if you're an undercover MI6 officer you don't get named, no one gets named unless you rise to the position of being C, the Chief, and then your name suddenly emerges into the public. So it's a slightly strange position because, you you know we are expecting it to be a woman but we can't be absolutely sure of that but that's certainly the expectation that that is the short list of the three

candidates who are there for the big job which should be out maybe in the next week or so. Oh really? So it's very soon. Very soon yeah. Okay now you mentioned Dame Barbara Woodward who's the only one that's been named so far. What do we know about her? Well, she's an experienced diplomat who spent time in China and worked also at the United Nations. I think one of the, you know, it's interesting because there's always a question for MI6, which is do they want a diplomat or do they want a spy?

And they're two very different roles and backgrounds. The current Chief Richard Moore has done a bit of both. So he started off in the spy world, then became a diplomat, and then became, went back as chief, you know, as have some of the others, and others have gone right through the service. And it's a kind of different, a different kind of position to come from the Foreign Office, where you're used to having a public profile, where you're used to speaking in public, where you're used to dealing with the media and Barbara would have that experience having come through the foreign office and that diplomatic world, whereas it would be different for someone who maybe has the

professional background as a spy and understands the kind of inner workings of MI6 much more but is less used to that public spotlight. So you know that's one of the questions I think think, for the people picking, you know, the next chief, the next C, is what kind of figure do they want? You know, do they want someone who knows nuts and bolts of espionage or do they want a Dame Barbara Woodward who is, if you like, more public-facing and more comfortable with that? So lots of questions for them to consider when announcing this new C role. How significant is it that it could be a woman for the very first time in the history?

I mean I think it is and I think it is you know it has been noted that the other British spy services have had women at their head. MI5 of course. MI5 you know going back to the early 1990s and Stella Rimington was the first MI5 director general to be a woman in the early 1990s and she'd had a remarkable career, had actually been really pushing at the glass ceiling that existed in MI5 for many years to get to the top and then you had another female director general, Eliza Manningham Buller in the 2000s. We've now got a woman who's running GCHQ which had never happened before, Anki Sp a woman who's running GCHQ, which had never happened before, Anne-Kiess Butler, who's there.

But MI6, which always, I have to say, has the reputation as being somewhat more old-fashioned than the other services, has never had a woman in the top job. And for many years, women were not even in the far stream of MI6. It was a very traditional old-fashioned organization during the Cold War. A few did rise to prominent positions often through kind of force of personality and changing the rules, people like Baroness Daphne Park but actually you know only now if you've got some women in senior positions who are able to kind of compete for that top job and I think you know it's

been noted that it's taken a long time to get there, I think. It has. Ava, from your experience working with spies, what is it like for a woman to be in that environment? It's funny, you know, because the reputation of spies is that they're male, they're daring, do they're very brave and fearless. And in reality, spies are just like you and

me. So women are represented there. The first spy I ever met was a 25 year old woman and the most fierce and terrifying spy I ever met was about a 55 year old woman and in between I met dozens of men. But women are everywhere there of all ages, all backgrounds. You would be amazed. I was amazed when I first stepped into that world. Yeah, it's fascinating. And I, because I was in communications, I was not a spy myself. So I was limited in terms of what they would show me. But what I saw was across the board, they would never tell me which agency they were with. I wasn't allowed to know which specific spy agency, just that they were intelligence. And so I got a really broad look at counterintelligence,

at MI5 and MI6, at various security services. Women are in there. They've always been in there. Does it make a difference then who's at the top of the organization? If the new chief of the MI6 is a woman, what difference will that make to us? To us?

I don't know that it makes a huge difference to our lives. I think it will make a difference to the spies' lives. I think it'll make a difference within that agency, not in how they operate. I don't think a woman would change anything in particular just because she's a woman, but simply because it gives younger spies in particular something to look at, something to aim for, to realize it. To kind of see it and believe it. You can climb the ladder. You can do this.

There's no reason why you can't. There's a reason why you're here. You have a goal. And how might, Gordon, it be perceived by other countries if a woman is at the top spot? Yeah, it is interesting, because I think one of the challenges about MI6 is that because only the chief is public and is known to the public, you know, that person ends up defining the service in an interesting way. And so, you know, in a way with other

organisations you can have people at lower ranks appear on TV or, you know, talk about it. So I think, you know, for that reason this is different maybe from other organisations and the importance of who is at the top tells you something about the way it looks and the way it projects itself. But one of the roles is for, you know, these, the Chiefs, the Cs to do international diplomacy. So one of the things they do is they go and do effectively low-level secret talks with other governments, with other spy chiefs, with other prime ministers. Current Chief Richard Moore has been doing a lot of that, travelling around the world.

And so you can imagine that in certain contexts and in certain countries, it may be more challenging for them to meet a woman doing that. But I don't think that's necessarily a problem, because I think actually often throwing people off balance of it or being surprised by who they see and it not fitting their stereotype of a British spy can be quite a useful thing when you're doing that public diplomacy. And I suppose most people's stereotype comes from things like James Bond, right? That's

the first thing people think of. I mean, it might be a silly question, but how true to life is that? Of course it's Hollywood, so you know, it's not going to be necessarily 100% factually correct. Are we close? Are we getting an idea? Well, the irony is, of course, in James Bond, you had Judy Dencher's M rather than C being a woman running the service before the reality happened. So in a weird way, James Bond, which I think is not necessarily the most modern portrayal of spies, but, you know, in a weird way,

it was kind of ahead of the head of the times potentially in portraying that.. But you know, I think one of the problems for MI6 for a long time was that the kind of James Bond image was a mixed blessing. Because on the one hand, when you're going abroad, when you're doing that public diplomacy, when you're trying to recruit agents, you know, in other countries, the image of this kind of daring-do spy is quite useful. But at home, that is actually not the kind of person you want to recruit. You know, you do not want people who think they're going to be running around with guns all the time and, you know, doing the things that James Bond does, because that's not the reality. So there's always a kind of tension, which is how useful is this myth for the Secret Service and does it put some people off joining

because that's not what they want to do and that's actually not the reality of it. Speaking of reality, what will be the top tasks that this new person will take on in this role as C? What's top of the entry? I think in the last couple of years they've made it pretty clear in stark languages that I've rarely seen before that top of the inter is Russia. I think that's a huge issue that faces us regardless of what happens in the next six months. And also friends of mine in the foreign office say, actually, while Russia remains a perennial problem, they are keeping a very, very, very close eye on China. So I think Russia and China are too, like, I mean, that's enough, right? Right there? That'll do?

It's a busy world. I think that's the problem. They're going to have a busy entry, whoever they are, I think, and plenty to do. And you mentioned that the announcement will be possibly some point next week, possibly, reports might say. I was talking to someone earlier this week who said very soon and I said when and they said very soon. Okay, and how will we find out? It'll probably come through a statement from the Foreign Office and then suddenly you can expect that person to get a lot of media attention, suddenly, whoever they are. Yes, and hopefully live on Woman's Hour.

As if. Gordon Carrera, thank you very much, the BBC's former security correspondent. And Ava Glass, thank you very much for coming on to Women's Hour this morning. Now a new blood test which will help develop personalised cancer treatment is going to be rolled out across the NHS. The technique known as a liquid biopsy will be offered as standard for lung cancer patients and the NHS is now planning on expanding this testing to advanced breast cancer patients. Here to discuss this with me is Peter Johnson, National Clinical Director for Cancer at NHS England.

Good morning Peter. Good morning. So how does this blood test work? Just spell it out for our listeners please. Thanks. So within cancer cells as they turn from being normal cells to cancerous, you often have changes in the genetic material in the DNA. And normally the way that we look at cancers and understand what's going on in them is we have to take a piece of tissue, you have to take a biopsy and then process that in the laboratory and then you can extract the DNA and look at the sequences and the changes

that have taken place and see what's going on. But these cancers shed tiny amounts of DNA into the bloodstream. So by taking a blood sample, we found that you can actually find the cancer's DNA going around in the bloodstream. And we can actually look at the changes in that without the need to take a tissue biopsy in some cases. And we've been trying this out in lung cancer for 18 months or so now. We've tested about 10,000 people with lung cancer and found that in just under half of them we can find these molecular changes in the DNA and the bloodstream, which means that we can short circuit the process for finding out A, that they've got lung cancer, and B, what the molecular changes are so that we can suggest these targeted treatments.

And these tests are done in a different way to how tests are currently conducted, is that right? Exactly. So we take a blood sample like we take any other blood test, but we process it in a way which allows us to get the cancer's DNA out and look at the molecular changes, the mutations that have taken place as the cancer has developed in the body. And that's great because it is a much quicker and easier way for people to have those results investigated. And it means that as we move into this era of more and more of these molecular targeted

treatments, the very often tablet treatments that specifically switch off the mutations that have caused the cancer cells to grow so they can stop the cancer cells from proliferating, which is effective in lung cancer and also in some types of breast cancer as well. And that's an alternative approach for some people at least to having chemotherapy. And what we want to do is find out as quickly as possible what the best treatment is for any particular person's cancer. Everybody's cancer is a little bit different when you look at the DNA. And finding the ones that are going to respond to these targeted treatments quickly makes

a real difference to how we can look after people. Yes, and of course that means they're more personalised treatments. So the test is being offered to lung cancer patients as standard, as I understand it, which of course affects women in very large numbers, Peter. Yes, indeed. So lung cancer is common in women as it is in men. Across the UK there's about just under 24,000 cases of lung cancer in women a year, which is the second most common cancer, after breast cancer. And actually while lung cancer has been getting a bit less common in men

as rates of smoking have gone down, we've actually seen the numbers going up slightly among women over time, partly because we're all living longer, but also for reasons that we're not so clear on, but it's still a very significant problem for women, absolutely. And what kind of impact can this have then for women with breast cancer specifically? So there are many breast cancers are treated with hormone treatments that block the female hormone signal in the cancer cells. But when they stop working, very often we've got targeted treatments which can switch off

some of these molecular changes in the cells. So being able to look in the blood to see if those are present allows us to recommend those types of treatments to people who've got a hormone sensitive breast cancer which has stopped responding to that and we think that's probably about 5,000 people a year in amongst all the people with breast cancer. So if somebody's having treatment for breast cancer, usually with hormones, and their cancer's stopped responding to those and has started growing again, then that's when we would use the test for that.

That's very significant. So could this blood test be used for other forms of cancer in the future that specifically impact women? Yes, we're learning more and more all the time about all the changes that are driving cancer cells to grow and spread around the body. So as we do that, we're starting to see that we can use this technology for things like pancreatic cancer and it's particularly attractive for those cancers where it's hard to get a tissue biopsy because they're deep inside the body. And so over the next few years we're going to see an expansion of this to several other cancer types I'm sure. That's very positive news. Peter Johnson, thank you for coming on to Women's Hour This Morning, National Clinical Director for Cancer at NHS England. Now earlier this week, one

of England's most high profileprofile footballers announced her retirement from international football, goalkeeper Mary Earps. Her decision comes just five weeks before the Linus go to the European Championships to hopefully defend their title. And so there's been some debates and some criticism about the timing of her announcement, but Earps said that it was the right time for her to step aside and give the younger generation an opportunity to thrive. Joining me now is football writer for The Guardian, Susie Rack, and sports lecturer at the University of Worcester

and also a professional goalkeeping coach, Dr. Julia West, good morning. Morning. Good morning. Susie, tell me about this announcement. So many people were shocked by this. Why has she done it now? That's a good question.

I mean, it is shocking coming so soon before a major tournament when so many of the sort of keepers in the England orbit at the moment have so few caps. But at the same time, as I understand it, she had actually been having discussions with Serena Vigman about possible retirement for the last 12 to 18 months and asked in April if she could go but was basically asked to reconsider it. So for her, I think it's been a much longer process than most people realise. Who knows what kind of discussions are going on behind the scenes and things like that. But I think Leah Williamson actually hit the nail on the head when she said it must have been an extraordinarily tough decision. So I think it is important to remember that there is a human at the basis of this decision. And yeah, I feel quite sorry for her having

to sort of step into the limelight like this and sort of step away at a time where, you know, it can be perceived that she's leaving England at a time in need. I imagine that must be a very, very difficult thing to do. But yeah, the anger and the shock is also valid too. Is she leaving England at a time of need? I mean, I would argue potentially yes in that, you know, Hannah Hampton is a hugely inexperienced goalkeeper at international level. She's got 11 caps or something. She's performed in some big games for England, but generally not on the biggest of stages. She's not played a major international tournament

yet. So when you then consider if Hampton gets injured, we're left with players who are completely uncapped, then you could say that yes, that is leaving England in the lurch, but at the same time, when you've had the career that Mary's had and delivered on the biggest stages in the way that she has, I think you have to also give a bit of leeway to someone who has done their time, right, and like, you know, given a lot and never shied away from sort of stepping up on the big stage after quite an up and down international career herself. So in her statement, which is quite lengthy, as you might imagine, for someone that's achieved

all that she's achieved, she does mention the younger generation and allowing them to now take the spotlight. Can we read between the lines to perhaps deduce that because she wasn't going to definitely be England's number one, she doesn't want to be number two and so has decided to step aside? I don't, I mean I think we, you know, that is a take for sure but I don't think we can necessarily say that with any kind of degree of certainty until we sort of get more of what's going on behind the scenes because she has deputized for Hanhampton at various points across the last sort of couple of years as Serena's sort of been working out exactly who she wants to be first

choice or not and you know I think there there are plenty of England goalkeepers who have played that role historically I think of Carly Telford who did that really well or Karen Bardsley who also, you know, towards the end of her tenure was watching this new generation come through. And there is a role to play, right, in being the elder stateswoman helping nurture those new generation goalkeepers. But only if you want to play that role. 100% yeah. And perhaps that's where some of the criticism has come in because people don't understand

why she wouldn't want to play that role. It's a chance to play for your country still, isn't it? Oh, 100% and it's like a very real chance to win a medal potentially as well. So, you know, that's the thing that I take a little bit of sympathy towards in that, you know, she's made a decision potentially to, you know, walk away from being a player that wins a second European Championship medal because she, you know, would have been sat on the bench essentially for that medal. You still get the medal, right? So, like, to have to make that decision, there must be something deeper going on

there, whether it's a fallout in England camp, whether it's a fallout with the other goalkeepers, whether it's, you know, some disagreement with Serena, whether it's frustration over the process around her retirement and those discussions, I don't know. But I think that yes, the criticism is valid. Five weeks before the major tournament kicks off, we've got 13 caps, Sahana Hampton's got, Kiara Keaton and Animal House have none. So that is a big, big experience hole there. But at the same time, like I think that is an incredibly difficult decision, a big personal sacrifice to make when your profile is so high and you could be two time European champion potentially,

to step away from that. So I'm just cautious of like making assumptions on the way she's thinking and feeling and whether it's, you know, petulant or as some people have put it or some kind of like, you know, fit of frustration at not being number one versus something much deeper than that, which I think is, is very, very possible. Of course. So how have the lionesses reacted? Because I know the captain, Leah Williamson and the manager Serena Vigman have both spoken out about this. Yeah, they both did the press conference yesterday and, you know, Serena was very protective over sort of the conversations they had had, didn't sort of kind of give anything away

on whether those conversations, as I understand it, they'd be going off 12 to 18 months, have actually happened. They've had conversations, she wouldn't give any detail. Leah was very sort of emotional about the impact that Earps has had on the team, about her personal relationship with her, their close friends. And again, similar to what I've been saying, reiterated this point that there's a human at the heart of this, it must have been an extremely difficult decision. And whilst they're obviously extremely disappointed that she's not going to be with them at the Euros, they're also concerned for her and

her feelings and emotions at this time and whatever's pushed her into making this decision. I think it's telling that they want her there, right? Serena said she wants her there. Yeah. And Julia, let me bring you in at this point because you are, of course, a professional goalkeeping coach. So did this announcement take you by surprise as well? What's your thoughts on this? Yeah, it's interesting. Thank you. I did, yes, immediately before a tournament.

However, I've been in some question and answer sessions where Mary was part of that for the Future Lionesses Goalkeeper Programme. And she was very much this person that wanted, didn't want to be in the way of the up-and-coming talent. I think we can see that she's quite humble in the way that she approaches some of these decisions that she makes and there could be so much more going on. We really don't know what all the underlying premises are for Mary there, but it's a really hard thing. If you think about goalkeepers, for an example, there is only one position on the pitch. So for midfielders, if I had midfielders, I've got potentially five positions and I can jiggle

people around. For the goalkeeper to give Hannah Hampton or Kiara or even Anna a little bit of experience, I've got to take a goalkeeper off to put another goalkeeper on. So we've got this problem even in the men's game. you know, the youngsters are sitting on the bench at the top level, so they're still not getting any experience. And the question is, how do we, how do you bridge going from team experience to international experience? And okay, before, immediately before tournament, that's not great. Could it upset the apple cart? Maybe. But it's not just about one person, is it? It's about the whole team as well at the end of the day. And now don't get me wrong, right, I'm a goalkeeper through and through and I absolutely fully support the goalkeeper

side of this argument, but I'm just trying to also have a look around the corner a little bit. Mary wears her heart on a sleeve, she's become really personable for people, but also you know Hannah Hampton hasn't had a bad run in on the international stage for her caps. And, and Kiara Keating is an exciting young prospect coming through. And even below that, which is the level, you know, I coach between the 12 and 15 up and coming keepers. And there's some exciting prospects, I think, coming along the queue. So when do we give all of these keepers their experience and their opportunities at international level? Of course, and I assume that when you're coaching these younger generation, Mary has quite an influence on them wanting to actually become goalkeepers in the first place. Well, really interesting. Yes, she does, and mainly because of the shirt and all of the saga around,

you know, the shirt production and everything else. But also what I see happening more and more, especially with the younger ones, is Mary's opened the door and what they're now seeing is they're associating more with the Hannah Hamptons and the Ciara Keatings because these keepers are now closer to them in age. So Mary feels like a long way away, not quite your mum, but she, you know, she feels like a lot older and she's been around in their sort of perspective for a very long time. So these youngsters now are starting to associate with some of the other keepers.

And people don't always see who holds the door open for them, do they? And that's a really tough job, is pushing that door open in the first place and saying, you can be a keeper and you can be really good. And especially as a woman, you can be a very good woman goalkeeper. And I think that's what Mary's shown. Here's the way you can do it. And Susie, as Julia mentioned there, we talk about legacy from Mary Earp. She's achieved all kinds of things on the pitch but off the pitch she's had such an influence as well. And as Julia mentioned about the shirt saga where she put pressure on a big sports brand to start producing goalkeeping shirts for women? Yeah I mean it's a phenomenal legacy because it

wasn't just about her and like seeing kids in her shirt it was about all of the other goalkeepers shirts across the World Cup that weren't being produced and she made she gave space to elevate their names and stuff as well and really put them on the map too. So it was never just about her. And I remember the press conference where she, it wasn't even a press conference, it was a little round table of journalists where she first spoke about it and she was asked about her lack of goalkeeper shirt being produced and she actually paused for a moment and got really quite emotional, slightly teary. And you could see the cogs turning. She was basically like, I've got to speak out on this. We're on the eve of the World Cup, but I've got to do it. And that was quite emotionally intelligent.

And you could feel the passion. Yeah, really could. It will be a sore loss to England, of course. Suzy Rack from The Guardian, thank you for coming on to Women's Hour and Dr Julia West as well. It's been great to be with you this morning. Tomorrow on weekend Women's Hour we'll discuss how cuts to international aid are impacting projects specifically for women with almost half of global women's rights organisations expected to shut down within six months. That's on Woman's Hour tomorrow from 4.30. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Who's in the news for all the wrong reasons? Step inside the world of crisis management and so-called spin doctors with me, David Yelland. And me, Simon Lewis. In our podcast from BBC Radio 4, we tell you what's really going on behind the scenes as the week's biggest PR disasters unfold. Simon and I used to be on opposite sides of a story in the media when I was edge of the sun and Simon was communication secretary to the late Queen. Now we've teamed up to share everything we know about what's keeping those big stories in and out of the press.

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