Woman's Hour - 30/09/2025

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

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Your idea of banking that's personal happens here. RBC, ideas happen here. Hi, I'm Nula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. While you're here, I wanted to let you know about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle, and everything in between. Life is complicated and often incredibly busy, so whether you're fixing a problem at one of life's crossroads, We're just looking to shake things up a bit.

This is the guide you'll need to help you survive and even thrive. Each episode brings together world-class experts with women, sharing their honest, powerful stories, offering real insight and also practical tips that really work. From work and career to relationships and family issues, the focus is on helping you grow, also adapt and overcome life's curve walls. First up, friendship.

How to stay connected with. with friends when life feels like a never-ending to-do list. Join us only on BBC Sounds, but now, back to today's Women's Hour. It is indeed, hello and welcome to the programme. Well, today we have Red Rose Meg Jones, fresh from England's win in the Women's Rugby World Cup final against Canada, and I can't wait to congratulate her, but also fresh. A tattoo that Meg got of Captain Zoe Aldcroft lifting the trophy.

She's not the only one on the team to have got the ink out, I should say. But I do want to know from you what tattoo did you get to mark an achievement or a good moment or memory from your life. You can text the program 84844 on social media we're at BBC Women's Hour

or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note the number is 0-3-700-100-444. And speaking of moments in a life, Today we have the actor Andrea Reisborough. I had the pleasure of watching her last night at the Old Vic in Mary Page Marlowe. It spans the life of an ordinary woman, but with extraordinary moments. Andrea will be with me in studio.

We're also going to have a conversation about carance, that is an adult child who is caring for one or both of their aging parents, in-laws or elderly relatives. I know many of you listening will have experience of that. and we have the author Bridget Collins in studio. She's a new novel, The Naked Light, that will take us on a folk horror tale in Sussex. But now, those of you listening to Women's Hour yesterday will have heard our coverage of the Women's Rugby World Cup. At the weekend, England lifted the trophy in front of a sold-out Twickenham,

5.8 million watched at home, breaking records in the process. Former player, Maggie Alfonzi, and rugby football union, or a few, President Deborah Griffin, joined me yesterday and I asked them both to name a player who for them summed up the tournament both agreed on one name that was England Centre

and Meg Jones her speed, her strength, her ability to be in the right place at the right time have made her arguably the best player at the World Cup she was one of three nominated for World Player of the Year and she has had a year of personal adversity while playing some of the best rugby of her life

I want to welcome back to Women's Hour Meg, World Cup winner I should say, and also congratulate you. Hello. Hello, UK. Thank you. Sorry, I'm on my voice. Well, you know, I just have to ask, how was the weekend?

And I have to tell our listeners that can't see you, you've got a big old metal hanging around your neck. It was amazing, obviously. Sorry, I've had a lemm sip as well. But it hasn't actually helped. Listen, we know I can feel. that there was some roaring, some shouting, some singing, perhaps? Lots of singing, yeah.

Lots of singing. No, it was just an amazing, an amazing achievement for us. Yeah, I honestly, I feel elated. But it's been a huge pleasure for us. And to have how many people come watch us, yeah, it's been huge. Sorry. Not at all. And I can see you taking a moment as well because it's so joyful.

I mean, you're just hot to feel joy as we watched you. But incredibly emotional too, right? Yeah, definitely. Considering the year I had losing both my mum and dad. Yeah, it was just the perfect sort of ending to that because it meant I did it for them. And, yeah, it just gave me a lot more hope. And that was important. Hope is so important, but doing it for them, for those that aren't aware,

you lost your mum and dad four months within each other. Your dad had cancer, your mother had struggled, I know, with alcoholism for a long time. I'm so sorry that you've gone through all that. And heartbreaking that had happened in such a short period as well. But so many might be wondering, Meg, like, how did you manage to challenge that? And I know you say there that you were doing it for them. How did you manage to, I suppose, put it aside or I don't know, internalise it. You tell me to be able to then perform at the level that you did.

For me, all I've ever known is rugby. And it's always given me so much back. Everyone around me has looked after me and my mum and dad loved watching me. They loved being part of that journey so for me it was easy because I just had, I already had the strength. I already knew what I had and I just trusted I needed to do this for them and and they gave me loads of signs along the way, feathers and dandelions. Feathers and dandelions. Yeah, yeah.

They were both. They were two things that they kept reminding me that they were there looking after me. So, yeah, hope is what we need sometimes. And I just grabbed onto that. There were so many moments. You know, there was another little clip that was shared on. online. It was when it was announced that you were one of three players who had been nominated for World Player of the Year. It was in the changing room. And just to see how your team

embraced you, almost smothered you with love at that moment. And of course, there were so many tears. Can you tell me a little bit about that camaraderie, whether it is in times of joy, like that nomination for example or in times perhaps also when you go through personal adversity like you did with your parents of course Yeah I think the team have been huge for me

they've looked after me that moment in time was just epitomised what team sport was about galvanising around me in moments of joy but they also understood why I was sad

because I couldn't share that with my mum and dad and those were the moment you want to share with them Of course So yeah My team are massive for me And they've helped me connect Connect with them

Over the last year But yeah they've just looked after me And I feel indebted to them And I'm sure they feel indebted to you too I'm going to give your voice a rest Only for a minute or so But I'd mentioned that I had Deborah Griffin, Maggie Alfonsi, and Ruby Toey, she was in this studio as well,

the Whirlwind of a New Zealand rugby legend. And they all gave you huge shoutouts here on Woman's Hour when I asked them about who the players of the tournament were. Meg Jones is certainly a favourite player of mine within the England team. It is Meg Jones. I think Meg Jones is really special. Last year she lost both of her parents within a four-month period so that resilience and that character has just epitomised

not just her but England. I think she really showed that picking up that trophy I remember just seeing her face and just being happy and relief and wishing her parents were there to observe that. Give me one name that you think has been made during the Rugby World Cup. Can I give you two? Go on. Sophie de Goody and Meg Jones.

I'm not going to get you started on Meg Jones. We'll be here for another half hour. That's lovely. That's so lovely. It's, and I know people, or a few, President, Deborah Griffin, Maggie Alfonsi, a former World Cup winner. And as I mentioned, Ruby Tooe there as well. A hot to stop her because she was ready to wax lyrical about your prowess. But how does it feel now to be a name that is very much made, maybe even more than made in the spotlight now?

Yeah. I just feel full, I feel accomplished. I feel like I've won life a little bit. And, yeah, I've never played to this game for accolades. I've always played it because I've loved it. And I've loved doing it with people and connecting with humans. That's all I love. So, yeah, I think it's so nice to hear such nice words being spoken about you.

But I honestly couldn't do it with all this stuff. The people around me, my partner, Celia. Like everyone just looked after me, my family, my brother, my sister, my dad's partner, Julie. They've all been amazing, so yeah, yeah, I feel joy, I feel elation, and I just feel full, I feel really full. I'm so glad to hear that. You know, as a radio presenter, I feel like I'm being really mean by making you speak at the moment. I think, are you muted for one second? That's not actually that she's lost her voice completely.

My voice, I think. There you go. I've got you. I've got you now, yeah. I've got you. Are you wearing the medal all day, every day, or is it just for us? It's a good decoration. But yeah.

New necklace. Yeah. And the gold is glinting, of course, as I speak to her as well. You know, we've talked about it and I spoke about with Deborah. And Maggie yesterday and Ruby somewhat about the growth of the game. But the slogan for the Red Roses was for the girls. What does that mean to you now? Do you know what?

It means it's legacy. It means leaving a imprint on the nation. You know, we did it for the younger girls. But we also did it for women, women. you know, maybe struggled to be loud and bold in a space. We did it for each other as well. And I think that was huge. So, yeah, for the girls is more than just the little girls.

It's for the older women as well. And everyone else wants to be bold and brave and chase their dreams. So, yeah, it's a big legacy for us. And it is, of course, been, I've seen it, like even when I throw it out to our listeners, just such passion and love and everybody wanting you all to succeed, I am going to let you go. And I want to say thank you for persevering with us as well this morning.

I really do feel for you because at times when there's a sore throat, it can be very difficult to kind of push on through. But if we know one thing about you, Meg Jones, we know that you have that tenacity and also, I have to say, upbeat personality that makes it all happen. We wish you all the best. Get yourself, let me see. Apple cider vinegar is what you need.

Apple cider vinegar with a bit of hot water and a little bit of honey and take a little bit of a rest. Meg Jones, thank you so much. She's wonderful, isn't she? Meg Jones, thanks so much to her for coming on. And I didn't get to chat about her tattoo, but I do want to hear about yours. If you've ever got one because of a wonderful memory or moment

or some life achievement, I want to hear about it, 8444 is the way that you can get in touch with us. But I want to move on next to carents. Are you a carant? A carant is an adult child who is caring for one or both of their ageing parents in-laws or elderly relatives. Many will be balancing work and family responsibilities as well. There's a recent report by the IPPR, that's the Institute for Public Policy Research, that said that unpaid care, whether by parents, spouses or adult children and most frequently women, is relied on too heavily to fill in the gaps of the inadequate and expensive adult social care system.

I'm joined now with Dr. Jackie Gray. She's a retired GP and founder of the Karen's room. She set it up to support those caring for their adult parents. I also want to welcome Kendra and Rachel, who do provide care for their parents, so very much immersed in this issue. Dr. Gray, good to have you with us. Why did you decide to focus your attention on Cairns? Good morning, Nula. I was very conscious from my GP work that my surgeries were becoming increasingly full of women, particularly, who were struggling with this issue.

And there was no obvious place for them to get help. And I wanted to give them the information and community that they needed, the recognition and the support to help them through what can be a difficult time. And it's interesting. You mentioned women there immediately. We do know that the burden of care often falls to them. But I was so interested reading into some of your thoughts on this that the fact that people are living longer really plays into it

and particularly your issue of concern about frailty. Absolutely. I think what we're seeing now is a phenomenon that hasn't been commonly appreciated in previous generations, the combination of longevity and poor health, often living with multiple chronic conditions, creates this state of frailty, which means people are particularly vulnerable to very small environmental, social or physical stresses. And that, in turn, creates a stepwise, progressive decline

in the ability to live independently and the need to rely on other people. And you say that is so different, because longevity we think is great if the life expectancy is going up, right? Most of us want to stick around as long as we can. But what have you seen in the changes from when you started as a GP to now? Yeah, it is the longevity. The fact that people are living well into their 80s, 90s, over 100 routinely. And for many, that is amazing.

And it's great. You can see generations, grandchildren, great-grandchildren. It can be fabulous. and I do want to emphasise that. But for a significant proportion, perhaps 25 to 50% of people over 85, the picture is one of poor health. So lifespan has extended,

but health span has not kept pace with that. And that is leaving families and individuals with some significant care challenges. I mean, you're even talking about an initiative to have a commissioner for frailty? Absolutely. I feel that we do need to have some sort of leadership for this to recognise that it's an issue

and recognise that it's an issue that transcends health care, social care, welfare and also community care. And a frailty commissioner can give it the leadership and the attention that this issue deserves. So like, for example, if there were a commissioner of frailty or for frailty, what would be the number one thing you would want that person to do? I would absolutely want them to integrate support for, older people living with frailty and their care and stature that there's a package of support for those older people that the carents and families that begin to take care of them are given

that package of support too and they are taken through the journey of progressive decline in a positive way which means that they all thrive despite the perhaps inevitable journey that they go on I mean, it's interesting because you say that many expect to grow old, get ill, maybe unable to care for themselves, go into a nursing home and then die. But that's not the trajectory that a lot of people are on. Absolutely not. The proportion of people who are living in an institution, a care home, is very small. We think there are probably around 4 million people caring for adults in the community.

Now, some of them will progress to requiring institutional care, but many are being supported by their families and by daycare services in their own home too. Just some figures from the IPPOR, they say the number of full-time unpaid carers providing more than 35 hours a week has soared by 70% in the past 20 years to 1.9 million people. Also, figures compiled by Carers UK in England and Wales

says unpaid carers provided care worth 100. and 83 billion pounds that's in the 2021 to 2022 year. That was an increase of almost 65 billion since 2011. I want to bring in a couple of people who are living through this. Let's start with Kendra. Hi, Kendra. Good to have you with us. Tell me a little bit about your situation.

I tried to make some notes on this before I started because you can talk in lots of different directions and it's quite hard to follow. But then I actually realised that I was making notes. about mam's journey and not actually my journey. So then it's really hard to separate yourself because you're so used to being the advocate for that person and being their voice so that when you talk about it,

you automatically go into that mode and you've lost yourself straight away. So I want to know about you. Yeah, I think to talk about it again without feeling that sense of guilt about it being about you, I've only really been in this journey full time for two years now and that kicks in really quickly that you are conscious you don't make it about yourself

so I think that that's where we fall off straight away is that to try and support people in this we've already sort of learned to be resilient to putting ourselves to the back of the queue when we're talking about it for me my mum used to have a completely independent independent life till about three years ago she started to struggle with a couple of physical sort of needs she caught um she caught shingles in her eye and that was kind of the first one

and then from that tic-tok a lot of things clicked in place and she kept getting little infections and things like that i found it quite tiring be it like juggling all the appointments and but dad needed that support because he said And so I reduced my working hours two years ago to 30 hours. It doesn't make that much of a difference really because mum's under five specialist sort of areas like for health. So actually really, I could probably quite easily not work at all and still struggle to juggle it off. And you say not work, but of course you're working, but you're working inside the home. I mean, it could take a logistics degree to kind of manage some of the things that I'm sure you are doing.

What impact, Kendra, do you think it has on you emotionally? I mean, I'm already hearing from you the selfless nature of the work that you are doing. Yeah, I think it's a really odd transition to go through because regardless of how sort of together you feel you might have life before this start, you just, going to overdrive or I personally going to overdrive if mammy's unwell. So anything for my needs goes like aside. And that's my choice to do that. But there is there is a cost of that in the end. So you can only go for so long having somebody at your foresight

before you run out of energy or you get unwell because you're running yourself down. And it's a really difficult balance to sustain. over initially I never foresaw that it would be forever now really realistically we're talking forever now for mum I have to tell our listeners just while we've been speaking as you were talking about how difficult it is your lovely dog is it a greyhound I can't tell came up and licked your face just like oh you know I feel your pain yeah yeah my whip it so you're oh to whip it yeah he's ali he's the the last thing I got with my mum it was mom's last visit to my house and we ended up going out and getting Theo and she

walked Theo and then she went into hospital in August 2023 and she's never been physically well enough to walk him since then which I find quite heartbreaking but I take him most days to see they have a gorgeous bond but yeah he he is my he's my mental health support he's He's my support network. He seemed to kind of get it there as he came up to give you a kiss. I want to bring in Rachel as well. Tell me about your situation and welcome. Hey, good morning.

In 2017, it was a big year. I gave birth to my first daughter and also my dad was diagnosed with inoperable pancreatic cancer. He then had chemo and became eligible for radical surgery to remove. his spleen, gall, blood, pancreas and parts of his stomach. We're now seven years on. He's still with us, albeit with type 3C diabetes, is entirely reliant on medication to digest his food and prone to every infection going as he has no spleen. I'm his full-time carer. I'm entitled to carer's allowance, which then gets deducted from universal credit. And what they call a Sam which carer because they also receive disability living allowance by eldest daughter until she's

16, at which point she'll be reviewed to see if she's eligible for Pip. Yeah. So there's a lot of moving parts there we can tell even from that brief description. And you care for your dad in your you're all in the same home, which I'm sure brings its own joys perhaps, but also challenges, no doubt. How do you feel it's impacted your life and just about you now? Yeah, I suppose you can't be spontaneous about anything. That's huge. Yeah. Every movement.

It's military planning every day, meal, breath, making sure your appointments are all up to date. People are in the right place. So something as simple as a weekend break may take months of planning, and that's for us all to go away together. And that's a lot of pressure. It is. It's interesting because obviously Dr. Gray and also Kendra will totally understand what you're talking about. But I'm wondering where you have found the support.

Because a lot of people talk about the loneliness you can have, even though you're up to your eyeballs in people and organizing things, but that there's a loneliness that can come from caring and kind of having to do a lot of it yourself. Yes, but the online platform of care and it's fantastic as well as the practical support. There is peer support. It's connecting with people in a similar situation. And sometimes it's not that you want to have a moan. It's just... It's okay to have a moan.

It's okay to have a moan. But yeah, just getting sort of everyday conversations, people in a similar situation. And you do pick up tips and things you don't know about that, you know, when you, when you recognise yourself as a carer, no one's going to turn up on your doorstep with a load of help. You have to go out looking. Sometimes you do have to stamp your feet a bit and it's getting, you know, someone to point you in the right direction that's really helpful. I'm also thinking because you are taking care of children as well as your father and what that push-pull must be like. Yes, it's always a balance But I think for me that's what family's about It is compromise, cooperating

I think it's quite good for my daughters To see me in a caring role They're naturally very protective over their granddad now And I see that caring sort of develop With their cousins and the wider family It's developing caring relationships and responsibility And I suppose what life is about Coming back to you, Dr. Gray, what systems would you put in place to support people like Kendra and Rachel?

Well, I think as we've heard, there's the emotional support. And that was one of the biggest challenges I saw in the surgery, the loneliness, the isolation, but also the guilt, the sense of being overwhelmed, abandoned, and frustrated, all of those things. And I think some sort of package of support to help people deal with that would be immensely appropriate. The information that we offer is fantastic. So that level of information, but supported by face-to-face support from a care coordinator or care navigator would be, I think, invaluable to people who are going through this. And when I talk about that care navigation, we often think very much in terms of health and social care. But as we've heard, there's the welfare side of things, benefits remaining in work, a package

to help people support that and support people through that. But also there's a whole legal side of caring for an ageing parent that people perhaps aren't comfortable with. We're not naturally, there's no legal framework that allows you to begin to delve in to somebody's property in financial affairs or health and welfare without the appropriate documentation. So that's another side.

So it is complex and I would want that that complexity is recognised and supported in full. I mean, is it realistic, however, because you will hear every day as I do how stretched resources are for health and social care? I think it is realistic, actually, because I have seen it in practice, for people who are on an end-of-life care package.

At that point, the services do go in. They get specialist support, leadership from a medical consultant. They get fast-tracked through the benefit system. So there is a package of support there, and there's a number to call, a person to speak to when things get out of hand. And there are services like night-sitting services provided by some of the charities for respite. And so all of these services can exist. They do exist.

There's a tried-and-tested approach. It's just not rolled out wider, and that's what I'm asking for. Yeah, and perhaps I think what I'm getting from you as well, as kind of this awareness of that kind of limbo time, if that makes sense, that it's not a care home, it's not that you're independent, that's something in between that only people survive and live their daily lives because of the help of other people, carants, as we call them. I'd be curious for your thoughts on this too.

It was announced today an NHS online hospital service will be launched in England within two years to help cut waiting times. It'll have its own dedicated doctors who will take charge of patients who choose to use the service. And the idea is that assessments, checkups with consultants and follow appointments, appointments will be all done online. Do you think that is a helpful move?

I think of those pros and cons, anything that allows people to access support is fantastic and anything that takes the load of frontline services is also fantastic. However, the shift towards a digital activity is particularly hard for older people, particularly those for living with frailty. As you move through the frail,

the frailty pathway, that progression of decline, it becomes increasingly difficult to use technology. And that's where Kerans have to step in and provide that support, whether it's support setting up Wi-Fi and the tech, help him just with the buttons. So this isn't a natural solution for older people living with frailty. And it could actually cause more work for carents themselves, actually. I'm going to leave it there, but really a thought-provoking discussion. Dr. Jackie Gray, a retired GP and founder of the Cairns Room to support those who are caring for their adult parents. Also, I want to thank Kendra and Rachel Effress

sharing their stories and wish them all the best as well as they continue as Karen's. Now, you may have heard that we have just launched The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, a brand new series of conversations available only on BBC Sounds. It is your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle, and everything in between.

You'll hear expert insight and honest conversations on how to help you tackle life's challenges and opportunities. Series one focuses on The Juggle and our first episode is all about friendship, how to squeeze in time with our friends despite our very busy lives and why we should be making time with our friends a priority. Here's a clip from psychologist, Dr. Marisa G. Franco. So when we look at the research on longevity, for example, exercise decreases our risk of death. by 24%, diet by 25%, and having a large diverse social network, not just one person, decrease our risk of death by 45%. And so that's like the value of diet and exercise combined. And I just want to emphasize that large diverse social network because I think sometimes when

you have a family, it can feel like, well, I am getting like social connection, right? But there's actually three different types of loneliness. There's intimate loneliness, which is a desire for a close intimate connection. Then there's relational loneliness, which is a desire for someone as close to you as a friend. And then there's collective loneliness, which is the desire to be part of a group working towards a collective goal, which means that I think, you know, like many of us have the experience in the pandemic too, that even if you're around one person and you really like that person, you can still feel lonely without having friends. That's Marisa G. Franco. And we have just recorded the next episode, How to Be Ambitious Without Burnout. It's full of tips.

one of my favourite lines from Lorraine Pascal you might remember as a TV chef she's a writer, she's an influencer she said feel the fear and say no anyway lots of ways to say no I do hope you'll tune in

if you'd like to get in touch with us 84844 is the way to do it by text on social media it's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website now so many of you have got in touch this morning I see a lot of messages coming in on Cairns but I want to do a few on

PhDs, yes, and tattoos who knew they went together. I had my first tattoo after I passed my PhD and it reflects my playful and colourful attitude to life after four grueling years of experiments and learning. Now I have three and I'm waiting for my next one. There was another one about a seahorse.

Oh yeah, I got a seahorse tattoo on my wrist when I was 61 to mark the end of my scuba diving time I'm getting old and creaky. Since then I've had one tattoo a year, an octopus, a whale, shark and a dwarf minky whale all significant sea creatures I have dived with. Next year

it is a giant mantua ray so says Nicky 84844. I feel I should be asking for photographs along with those messages as they come in. Right, we have the great Andrea Reisber with us in studio this morning. Andrew

is one of five actors playing Mary Paige Marlowe in the play of the same name, currently on stage at the Old Vic in London. Yes, I I was lucky enough to go last night. And the play explores who we are, also who we appear to be, and who we once were. It unfolds in fragments spanning 70 years in the life of one Mary Page Marlowe, an accountant and mother of two sons, of two, I should say not sons, one son, one daughter. And it's across 11 scenes.

It's really like snapshots of a life that flips forwards and also flips backwards. Welcome to the Women's Hour Studio. Welcome back, I should say. Oh, thank you for having me back. It's really lovely to have you. So in the play, we're invited to piece together Mary's life. And we kind of see how small moments create a life. She's an accountant in Dayton, Ohio.

But there are five actors that play her across her lifespan. And I immediately was wondering, what were the rehearsals like? Because you have these five actors trying to keep this one character consistent. very unique they were very unique so Matthew Walker's the director had said I think there's probably a way

we can rehearse this that's really unusual but quite interesting and we did the play is basically a collection of scenes as you were saying snapshots of a human's life

and for that reason we were able to rehearse each one really separately a couple of us play a couple of ages so I play 40, 44 and 50 those are my Marys and we each have a certain allotted amount of Marys

and so we were able to rehearse those sort of on their own and then bring the whole thing together and it's funny talking about it's strange talking about it because we've not talked about it so much amongst ourselves we've spent so much time together rehearsing it and thinking about it as a piece as a whole that you very much feel like

although you are playing the same person there's little it needs to be said in between about who she is because the play is such a strong piece of writing. Yeah, no, it's wonderful. It is wonderful. And I suppose are we are we the same person

when we're younger as when we're older? You have so many different incarnations throughout your life, don't you of yourself? And Tracy Letts is the the playwright, and the way that Tracy's constructed the play is so clever because each day that it goes on, I realise that, you know,

every little moment is a call and response moment to a different, harks to a different part of the piece. So it's, it's, there's a quilt mentioned in the piece in it, and it is very much like a quilt. Yeah, that's a really good way to describe it. It's, but he's so, what he's so wonderful at doing, Tracy, is he sort of cloaks, he cloaks heightened drama, the sort of heightened drama we all have in our own lives every day that could be anybody's own movie if you were to make it. Yes.

He cloaks that drama in really, in domesticity almost. Yes. You're on the kitchen floor, for example, in one scene. where you're expecting bad news. And, you know, it's a domestic setting, yet it's perhaps one of the most intense things that's going to happen in this woman's life. Which in reality is where the tragedy happens, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah. You know, I was reading, speaking of Tracy Letts, he said it's a play that sticks with people in unpredictable and unexpected ways. what's sticking with you at the moment can you tell? I think it'll change, you know. The strange thing about being in a play is you get to know a piece of text to such an extent that you explore it in an uncanny, obsessive way.

And even perhaps the last night, you know, you have the performance. You go, hang on a minute. You know, finally now I know. You're seeing something else about Mary Page? Until the very last moment you have those discoveries, which is what's so beautiful about being the theatre. I kept trying to figure her out. And I think it is a play that leaves you thinking.

Even this morning I woke up thinking about it. And I suppose it shows you how short a life is in lots of ways, but how many people we might touch or be involved with as we go through that life as well. And also how conscious you are of the way that you live your life. You know, she's sort of unapologetically. free in many ways, Mary Paige Marlowe. Particularly for the time.

Particularly for the time. But it's interesting because it's repressed, slightly repressed. You know, she can't live freely, externally perhaps, but she's living many different lives. There's even more than a duplicity to her life. Oh, completely. And then how people see her as well. She's a different person.

They all kind of have a reddish tinge to their hair, whoever the actors are. Yes, although mine keeps washing out. You have kind of a dark Auburn at this today. This has got stuff in it, you know. They put a lot of stuff in it. I'm not sure what it's called. I think it's called a glaze, which they

also do to a donut. Which is also delicious. Now, we have another redhead that we're very familiar with. One of the actors is Susan Sarandon. It was her UK theatre debut and I was wondering was she coming to you? Because I did read she was nervous beforehand about it

or excited as well but what it was like I'm kind of disappointed that I don't get to see both of you on stage together at the exact same time. Yes that's something we've laughed about since because she had wanted to do something with me and obviously

I'd wanted to do something with her and then she said only when we got together to realize we don't actually talk to each other because we're playing the same person so that's a sad times hopefully next time we'll actually be able to work in the same scene with each other but it's been incredible to see the way that

because there are five of us as Mary that each generation takes on that different role the perspective is so different completely and you flip really easily as an audience member like you're right there immediately and I think the beauty of Susan's performance

which is so extraordinary is that you see every single moment of Mary up until this, what she's now holding and presenting to us. You see all of those Mary's in her and she does that so gracefully. Yeah, yeah, no. A wonderful watch. Every scene I was wrapped, as were the rest of the audience as well. It's in the round, actually, I should tell people.

So I wonder what that's like as an actor. So in the round, the old Vic, you have the centre, everybody's sitting all around. And so you're playing to this whole audience in a 360. How do you do that? You would think it's such a proscenium arch theatre when you think of the old Vic. It seems that it has to be quintessentially that that you would see a play in that makeup.

But actually what's amazing about it is it's lent itself beautifully to being in the round. And I realised I'd never... This is one of the things that when Matthew talked to me about doing the play, I was really, really excited about the way he was going to set it because I've never actually professionally done anything in the round.

You know, you do it at a drama. school and all sorts of things but it's such a wonderful experience because it's it's very strange as an actor because it's very intimate but then you have you know you have to speak through your back that that's what i'm thinking yeah yeah yeah sure technically speaking but you do where i was sitting um at times there would have been a character who was a let's mary page iteration um in the therapist office and it's just her shoulders i'm looking at but you get the emotion feel everything

even from the back it's really interesting it's certainly all of the training kicked in you know all the drama school came back and you know slap me over the face in the best you know

in the absolute best way there's a couple of quotes that I was reminded of with this play one is Joan Didion I think we are well advised to keep on nodding terms with the people we used to be

otherwise they turn up unannounced and surprise us that was one And the other is Annie Dillard, who's the way we spend our days is the way we spend our lives. I mean, it definitely made me think, you know, those kind of quotidian things that you do and how, that's what makes up a life. It's interesting. I was going to mention the Joan Didion quote because there's something else that I keep thinking of as where, as the play evolves. And it's something that she says, I can't remember whether it's in blue nights or whether it's in the Year of Magic.

thinking, but she talks about, and it might be neither of those, she talks about being a mother and putting the lentils on to soak and writing the screenplay and making the phone calls and arranging dinner for Saturday and then hoping every morning through the door that an envelope's going to arrive to tell her how to do it all. Yeah, right. And that very much puts me in mind of this piece, or the piece puts me in mind of that. Yes, you're doing it waiting for. But as a human, as a woman, you know, however. you identify what does it mean to be that and what is that and how much does it matter to know what that is? Who knows? And there's no instruction booklet? No, but it's interesting to dissect

and it's wonderful when we come together and commune over it. All of us, you know, every different demographic because hearing other people's experience of it is so, there's something always so strangely universal. This is why I love presenting this program. Listen, I want to congratulate you. We've all winners on the program this morning. Dragonfly, Best Performance Award at the 2025 Tribeca Film Festival. Yes, with Brenda Blethon. Brenda Blethon.

It's, I think touching on some of the themes I was talking about in our previous conversation about caring for elderly relatives or could be friends or neighbours, of course, as well. So people can look forward to that. Dragonfly is an incredible, I mean, I think it's an incredible. incredible film directed by Paul Andrew Williams and Brenda Blethen. It's about a very strange friendship between two women who live next door to each other in council bungalows. And there's a lot of loneliness, you know, for one, because it's the later years of her life. It's harder for us to get about.

For the other, because she's estranged. She's come from a situation of being in care growing up. and they form this really unique, very odd, very funny, quite magical bond. And working with Brenda was really one of the great privileges of my life. I can't wait to see that. You're Colleen in that. Also, just to let people know, Good Boy with Stephen Graham, that's due to be shown first at the London Film Festival next month.

You've been busy. So it's important to mention here with Good Boy, Stephen Graham and I are playing another set of terrible parents. Who thought we could get any worse after the Wormwoods? But it turns out, even though that bar was high, we managed to surpass. So Alicia, who played Matilda, is playing our youngest Mary in Mary Page Marlowe. So this is how it all comes full circle. It's in the round.

It is exactly. Like a circle in a circle. It's so great to have you in for people who want to catch Mary Page Marlowe that is on at the Old Vic in London until the first. of November, but then we are going to catch dragonfly and we're going to catch good boy. Thank you so much for coming in after your late night last night as well. Oh, thank you so much for having me. Now, some more messages coming in.

Here's another. I'm a full-time caring for both my parents. My parents, sister, brother-in-law and I sold our three houses last year. I moved into one big house so we can care for them more easily. I'm not saying it's easy, but the quality of life has really improved. That's interesting, isn't it? Some tips on how to manage it or how some people are managing it. it. Like so many, I'm a pensioner trying to balance ever-increasing needs of a 92-year-old mother,

mid-30s children with her own challenges, plus my time with grandchildren, little time or headspace for self or marriage, which you might think in those years that you would, but it's not always that way. Ladybird tattoo 28 years ago to mark my divorce says of Atalanta. She's 64. She's still loving it. Keep me coming. 84844. We need to now, however, turn. to a haunting gothic tale of ancient darkness and a love that devise convention. Best-selling author, Bridget Collins, has published a new novel, The Naked Light.

It's set in England, even. It focuses on three surplus women. We'll explain that in a moment. After the First World War, this bored and lonely Florence, her teenage niece Phoebe and Kit, a bohemian artist that's haunted by memories of wartime France.

Welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Let's talk. Surplus women. Explain who they were. Yeah, so, I mean, this book, the inspiration for this book was another book that I read. I mean, it must have been 15 or 20 years ago now, and I just kind of got it out of the library on spec. And the book is called Singled Out by Virginia Nicholson.

And it is a book about the surplus women, which is to say the two million women who were left without men after the First World War, because obviously the men were killed. And these women, you know, they'd grown up their whole lives. thinking they were going to be wives and mothers, and then suddenly that was all completely taken away from them. And it's an absolutely brilliant book. It's really thought-provoking and it's really moving. But it also, I think one of the reasons it stuck with me was because it, you know, like when I was at school and we were talked about the First World War, you know, the First World War was really good for women's rights because, you know, the women went into the factories and got jobs. And actually, you know, the more I read about it, I think actually that

That wasn't really what happened. What happened? Well, the women went to the, you know, they had the jobs in the factories. But then, of course, the men came back and wanted the jobs back. And there was a big backlash because the women, understandably, had enjoyed their independence and wanted to work. And so, you know, in some ways the First World War in itself was quite bad for women's rights because there was that impulse to kind of send the women back into the home. What really made a difference was those two million women who couldn't be wives and mothers who had to go and do other things? things and change the world. And it's, you know, that, that legacy, you know, I think it makes a

huge difference even today. And my mother, you know, remembers being taught by many of those women in her school. And it made me think that there's so much about our world, which was changed in a quiet but unmistakable way by those women. I'm just thinking about the word surplus, because generally when we say surplus, we say surplus to requirements. So they're not really needed. Well, exactly. think it was coined by the Daily Mail in one of their articles because there was a census, I think in, it was in the early 20s, there was a census which actually just counted how many women there were. And yeah, the Daily Mail called them the surpluses, which is, you know, it sums it up really because it's heartbreaking. And it's, you know, a derogatory term.

Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Society is looking at you in that way that you're not needed. Yeah. But they do feature heavily in your book. And I want to come to some of them as well. I just mention them briefly there. But I really need to talk about faces. Yes. So dominant in the book. We're introduced to one of your characters, Kit, who was working in a mask studio in Paris, making masks for soldiers whose faces had been damaged sometimes terribly in the war.

Immediately I was wondering, was that a real thing? That was a real thing. Can you explain it a little? I very heavily because I felt like I couldn't do justice. to the real thing. So I wanted to kind of have it in the background without trying to pretend that it was a novel about that because it was fascinating in itself. It was basically, there was a place called The Studio for Portrait Masks and it was run by an American sculptor, and I think also a novelist called Anna Coleman Ladd. And she, you know, I think it wasn't, it didn't go on

for very long. It was maybe a year or something. But she made these tin. enamel masks for the soldiers. And you can actually find it on YouTube. There's a very short kind of clip, which is, you know, from the 191919, I guess. But yeah, I mean, it was a real thing and it was absolutely fascinating. And they would wear these masks trying to cover or instead of showing, you know, facial injuries that they would have experienced. And it's, you can see the photos in the film it's really interesting because they put them on and you know and then they take them off and you see the difference and you know in certain lights it's very convincing you know there's a moment where a man sort of is smoking a cigarette and he looks normal and then he takes off the

mask and you see this disfigurement and it's quite shocking but also you know when you read about it they were they were sort of sort of convincing but not entirely which you do get that part of it very much cross. I think that uncanny thing of, you know, we are really scared of things that look human and aren't. And so for those men, you know, they were kind of brought into that territory of looking almost human but not quite, which is almost worse than being disfigured. And of course, it is horrific what those men went through in war as well. And there's some of that horror that is through the book as well and a supernatural element. Because the face isn't just about people

who went through the war and may have had a facial difference but one of the characters is the chalk mountain with the face. Yes. Yes, that's right. Yes.

So I was partly, I mean, the book is very firmly set in Sussex and it's a fictional village but I kind of know where the fictional village is. And on the Sussex Downs there's a kind of group of villages and one of them has a white horse

which is at Hindover near Alfriston and then there's the long man of Lullington. I think. And that was, you know, they're very intriguing those figures. I mean, there are arguments about why they're there and how long they've been there and people think that they're probably modern. But there is something about that, you know, kind of mark in the landscape that's, you know, uncanny and evocative and intriguing. And has a power, perhaps. Over the inhabitants. Yes, exactly. Which is what the face is in the novel, of course. It has a sort of liminal. supernatural function, which as it grows over, it starts to lose. And of course, that's one of the catalysts for the story. Also, we have the relationship between Florence, who is a surplus woman and Kit. But really interesting to think about a lesbian relationship in that time.

Absolutely. I mean, I think one of the things I wanted to explore is that, you know, you've got Kit, who is a lesbian and, you know, is kind of one of those fabulous 1920s lesbians with the sort of androgynous glamour and, you know, bohemian background. And then you have Florence who ends up sort of falling in love with Kit completely out of the blue. You know, she's always assumed that she would be a wife and a mother and is hit by, you know, this desire that she's never expected. But then she's also, you know, she's attracted to Kit also because Kit is there and attractive and wants her. And so I'm, I was very interested in that idea about, you know, sort of situational, lesbianism almost that you know and I think every every relationship is always kind of you know exists

in a context you know you're always choosing between the people who are there because obviously you can't choose someone who isn't there but that you know are you are you a real lesbian you know the desire is real but you know what what what would that label mean it's I think in the book it's not something that Florence would apply to herself necessarily and at that time of queen Victoria for example how would lesbianism have been viewed well I I think it was, I mean, certainly there are a lot of quite visible lesbians in the 20s and 30s. There are people like Radical Fall and, you know, Gluck, the artist. And, you know, they existed.

And obviously the Bloomsbury. But this is a small village. But this, yes, exactly. And, you know, you still could be, you know, refused service in a pub if you were a lone woman. So it's that kind of context. And I think... That happened in the 1970s in Ireland, by the way, in the bars downstairs during the day. But continue.

Yeah. But also it's complicated by the fact. So, you know, Florence is faced with this dilemma of, you know, she could be a lesbian, in which case, you know, she's not going to be accepted by society. Or she could go away and try and find a man to marry, which may or may not work. But there's also the fact that because of all these surplus women, it became much more acceptable for women to live together and have these intense friendships. So I think lesbianism was in a very interesting.

interesting space after the First World War that nobody quite wanted to talk about it or wanted to draw attention to it. Because if you have two million women together, some of them are probably going to find other ways to find romantic and erotic satisfaction. And you probably, you know, in that time, you didn't want to look at that too closely. Yeah. So interesting. What about the supernatural, uncanny aspect? What is it about the English countryside in Sussex that that drives you or gives you that inspiration. I've got about 30 seconds. Well, it's a very poetic beautiful landscape

and I think also in the book it functions I wanted it to function as a metaphor for the trauma. You know, the British landscape didn't change that much in the First World War but there were these invisible changes that haunted people and I wanted to I guess evoke some of that. And you do so beautifully. Bridget Collins, her new novel is The Naked Light to be appearing at bookshops across the UK

over the next two weeks to promote that spooky novel. Folk horror is a term I loved. Now tomorrow I'll be discussing the new head of MI6 plays Metro Valley. First woman to head up the Secret Intelligence Service. She's a career spy. Her most recent role was Head of Technology

at MI6, a position we know from the Bond films as Q. I'll be finding out what she's like from two women who've met her. And I want to thank you for all your messages. One talked about getting tattoos of all the doctors that have kept them alive over the years, I wouldn't be here without them, says the rocker in Ashby. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time.

Hello, I'm Amul Rajan, and from BBC Radio 4, this is radical. We are living through one of those hinge moments in history when all the old certainties crumble and a new world struggles to be born. So the idea behind this podcast is to help you navigate it. What's really changed is the volume of information. That has exploded. And also by offering a safe space for the radical ideas that our future demands.

Go to the Charter and say radically cut the taxes of those with children. Telling our stories is powerful and a radical act. Listen to Radical with Amul Rajan on BBC Sounds.