Woman's Hour - 30/10/2025

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight.

It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden. Yeah. And I do look like. my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. While you're here, I wanted to let you know about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle and everything in between. Life is complicated and often incredibly busy. So whether you're fixing a problem at one of life's crossroads or just looking to shake things up

bit, this is the guide you'll need to help you survive and even thrive. Each episode brings together world-class experts with women sharing their honest, powerful stories, offering real insight, and also practical tips that really work. From work and career to relationships and family issues, the focus is on helping you grow, also adapt and overcome life's curve walls. It's your companion, your life coach, it's your Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Join us only on BBC Sounds, but now back to today's Woman's Hour. Good morning and welcome. On today's program, as France moves to include consent in the rape laws following the Giselle Pelico case, we hear from a feminist campaigner who questions if this is the right thing to do. Nourish the new you. Sounds nice, doesn't it? It's a

project being run by Bournemouth University, helping women recover from alcohol dependency through cooking classes and art workshops. Chloe Michelle Howeth will be telling us about her new book, Heap Earth Upon It, set in Rural Island in the 1960s, a group of siblings with a dark family secret. Don't worry, no spoilers. And choreographer Amina Kayam has a new show, Bibi Rukir's Reckless Daughter. She'll be here to tell us all about it, but essentially it's about how mothers can impose strict patriarchy rules on their daughters. The same ones they were made to a dear to probably. Even the use of the word reckless in the title of the production is a motive. So today, to all of you so-called reckless daughters, listen up. Tell me a tale of how you broke

free of societal expectations. When have you caused a scandal by simply living the life you want? When have you been told no because you're a woman, but did it anyway? What traditions or cultural norms have you done a way with to live the life you want and live by your own rules? Very much looking forward to reading your stories this morning from one reckless daughter to another, I see you. Text the program is 84844. You can email us by going to our website. You can WhatsApp me on 0700-100-444 and of course followers on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour and feel free to get in touch if you'd like to comment on anything you hear on the program today.

the text number once again is 84844. But first, to France. The French Parliament has just ratified an amendment to add consent to the legal definition of rape and sexual assault. The issue gained national attention following the Pelico rape trial. Giselle Pelico had been drugged unconscious by her former husband, Dominique. He and 46 other men were found guilty of aggravated rape, two were convicted of attempted rape,

were found guilty of sexual assault. The change to include consent still needs to be signed off by France's president, but it will bring French legislation in line with other European countries. Joining me now is the BBC's Laura Gottzi to explain more. I'm also joined by Blondin de Valange, founder of the feminist radical group Les Amazon de Avignon. Laura and Blondin, welcome. Laura, I'm going to come to you first. Can you explain the change and what this says about consent? Yes. So previously,

rape or sexual reviews in France had been defined as basically any form of sexual penetration committed with use of violence, coercion, threat or surprise. Now, as of yesterday, the law will say that all non-consensual consensual sexual acts

constitute rape. So this change had been bubbling for years. Advocacy group had been pushing for it. MPs, cross-party had also been in support of it. But it really gained urgency, as you rightly said, last year in the wake of the Pellicoe rape trial. I think this was partly because at the time, the defence of many of the accused

hinged on the fact that they could not possibly be found guilty of rape because they had been unaware that Giselle Pellico had not given her consent. Now, it's worth noting that that didn't actually hold and that the court didn't accept it and that, you know, dozens of them were found guilty of rape with sexual assault. but the law now says that consent cannot be inferred from silence or lack of reaction. So in a sense, it aims to close that loophole. How significant is this change? I think it could be pretty significant because it does fundamentally alter, you know, a law that is used again and again in rape cases.

And I mean, it is an amendment, but I think the worry that many have and that I'm sure Blondin will speak to, is that it is just, you know, an amendment is just fixing sort of the tip of the iceberg and that there's so many issues that caused the problem in the first place that won't be fixed by a change of law. Well, let's bring Blondine in. What's your reaction, Blondine? As a feminist, I'm not sure it's really a good thing because, you know, here is the irony.

The law was passed almost anonymously. All political parties voted for it, except the far right. So did they become a feminist overnight? Or maybe it's a low cost nothing. It risks nothing. It changes nothing. And it's a good law on the paper. But I think it keeps protecting always the men in the same system.

Can you explain a bit more? Because I think for a lot of people listening, that, you know, that sounds quite counterintuitive. It's all the time, we have to hear, to listen to women. In fact, police doesn't listen to women. They don't believe women. The justice doesn't believe women, the justice system. But do we believe that this is going to change because the law changed?

In fact, in France, already 99%. of rapes are followed by nothing, you know, because nobody believes women. Why will it change? Because the law changed. You know, when there was the pelico trial, the rapists were debating all the time about consent. But she was sleeping. She was, you know, she was sleeping. She was in unconscious.

And they said, she was okay and she consent. So what does it say in the future? The women will have to prove that they didn't consent. But the fact is that the problem is the rapist, not the victim. It's a rapist who commit a crime, not a victim who have to prove that they didn't consent. So what are the potential issues then if you think the law has changed as proposed. You know, the problem is I fear that this law will be a weapon against women. For example, for the sexual harassment laws in France, today men use these laws to sue women for defamation

and because that's what patriarchy does. It takes every weapon meant to defend women and turns in against them. So I fear that it will be another weapon against women. Rape is treated in this case, in this law, like a problem of miscommunication. The problem is not miscommunication. It's rape. Rape is a crime. You know, it's not a problem of, I didn't understand, she didn't say yes. No, it's a crime. We are speaking about crimes. Laura, so like some campaigners have said, like Blondin, that this is going to backfire on women. Yes, I mean, I think there is a concern that this amendment will basically put the burden on the victim to prove that she hadn't consented. And I think in this case, the Giselle-Pellicoe case is almost a red herring in that.

It was so unusual because usually in rape cases there's not the amount of evidence that we had in that case. Obviously, it went like all her rapes and assaults had been filmed. So in a context in which that amount of evidence is not available, then how do you prove that you had never? consented to her in the first place. And I think to what Blondino was saying, I was reminded of of last year when I was following the trial, and I interviewed the lawyer of Dominique Pelico's husband. And we were talking about how to change things, how to change, you know, rape culture, how to create a culture of consent. And she was saying, you know, that she didn't think that the change would ever come from the Ministry of Justice, but from the Ministry of Education. And that really stuck with me.

because it spoke to how even she recognized that really the foundation of this problem went much deeper than a law on an amendment to the law. Blondine. Yes, I completely agree. We need new tools. We need education. We need to end secondary victimization in the court. And we need to put the blame where it belongs on the rapist and not on the aggressor and not on the victim.

And we don't have to focus on the victim, but on the rapists. Yes, we need more new tools, education, and we have to give the good information for the policemen, for the judges, to inform them about rape culture, what it is. I was in the court for pedico trial every day, and it was every day we heard so many things. things that showed us that even the policemen, even the judges, didn't understand what rape culture is and what, because they were asking Giselle, did you consent? But she was unconscious,

you know, it's, it was so, it was crazy. Yeah. The problem is not here. The problem is why do men rape women? This is the real problem. We don't ask the Louvre to confirm that they didn't consent to be theft. You know, why do we have to ask women that they prove they didn't consent? So what changes do you think are needed then? What would you like to see happen, Lundee? I want education for young people in school about respect, about empathy. boys have to know that girls are human beings too.

It's so simple. We have to end secondary victimization in the court. We have to stop to ask women how they acted, what was their sexual orientation. It's not the problem. The problem is, why did you rape? We have to ask the men to justify what they did and why they did that.

Not to ask more questions to women. Women are not the problem. It's a male problem. Rape is a male problem, not a woman's problem. Laura, what happens next? Well, the French president signs this into law and then the amendment goes through. And then whether this closes any loopholes that may arise.

You know, I guess that's obviously the hope. So we'll see whether this changes anything, And then the conversation continues as well. Blondin de Valange and Laura Gotzi, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. 8444 is the text number. Now, Irish novelist Chloe Michelle Howeth's latest book is set in the dark winter months

of mid-1960s rural island, called Heap Earth Upon It. It follows the O'Leary siblings, Tom, Jack, Anna, all in their 20s and their much younger sister Peggy as they arrive in a new village having left behind the secrets that are haunting them, or so they think.

Chloe, welcome to the program. Hello, thank you for having me. It's absolutely our pleasure that you're on. Where did the idea for this book come from? I think really the first idea that I had was I wanted to move away from the tone that I had set in my first novel, Sunburn, which is a coming-of-age love story set in the 90s. And it's very summertime-based. There's a clear colour palette in that book.

It's rich, golden, honey-coloured. sunrises and sunsets and so for this I thought I'm just going to do the opposite to start myself off so I thought January cold grey drizzle that very quiet time of year

that's where I started with this and then I think that Ireland in those colder months really lends itself to the Gothic and the spookier tone that I was trying to achieve in this novel so that's where I started with it and you were brought up on

the rural south-west coast of Ireland. So how much does your childhood landscape influence the work? It's in everything that I write. Yeah, I'm from West Cork. That's where I grew up. And it's something that I don't think I could write about anywhere else. I just find it endlessly inspiring. The landscape in every season is so beautiful. And the culture, the people, the way that people speak and, you know, everything is a story there. I just find it fascinating. It's so dominant. It feels like one of the characters. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, I almost look at it like I'm not from there. I don't know why I'm so obsessed with something that I'm a part of, but I just find it endlessly fascinating and it definitely has

become somewhat of a character in my work. Well, you live in the UK now on the coast. How has the distance affected your relationship with Ireland? Yeah, so now I'm living in Brighton. I've been there nearly five years. It's funny, I think writing this book, in particular, away from Ireland, probably was quite helpful just because the subject matter is rather heavy and dark. I think that aspect of separation helped me to bring in some romantic elements. You know, I was able to romanticise it that bit more, just being away, which probably is just me being homesick. But it definitely comes through. Well, let's talk a bit about the book because

it's rural island in the 1960s and it feels a world away for modern life. In fact, when we first meet the O'Leary family, they're arriving into town in a cart. Yes. Timeless. Yeah, I think there's a portion very early on in the novel where you really wouldn't know what year it's set in. And especially them arriving in their cart, it speaks to the repression that's in. the novel, these are four orphaned siblings. Three of them are adults now, but due to the circumstances in which they were orphaned, they really haven't been able to mature in the way that you would have expected them to. And so them coming in in that cart is just a very early symbol of them not being able to let go of their past, which is ultimately what causes them an awful lot

of trouble throughout the book. What's the appeal of Ireland's past for you? Because your first book was set in the 90s, this one in the 60s? I think that, again, it's that separation for me. I was born in 96, so even the book that I wrote set in the 90s is really a little bit before my time. I think, first of all,

I see it more as fiction, which might sound crazy to people listening, but because I didn't live through it, you know, I can see it more as an imagined time and place, which I think helps me when I'm creating these worlds. these characters. And also it goes back to just the romanticisation, being able to, you know, pick up on the

small details and you can be rather selective then when you're creating the world, rather than having to write about what's happening here and now. I think I might find that quite difficult. How did you go about doing your research, getting into 1960s rural Ireland? I spent an awful lot of time on the RTE Archive, which is an online resource, which there's so much material on there there's a sample of more or less everything

that the RTE have broadcasted since they began broadcasting and so I watched so many clips of news broadcasts television programs that they were putting out interviews with people in the streets just to get a sense of all the little details

what people were wearing how they were speaking about things their opinions on things I watched on YouTube a fair few documentaries about agricultural machinery in the 60s in Ireland. Not that it's a book about farming but it was just more to get

a picture of what men in those rural spaces were talking about, thinking about, again, what they were wearing, how they stand, how they hold themselves. So yeah, the RTE Archive just, it was a gift. You've been described becoming the poet laureates of queer rural island

and once again in this book, one of your central characters is a lesbian. Why is it important for you to include lesbian characters in your novels? I mean, really, I think because that's how I see the world. I write about Irish queerness because I'm an Irish queer person. And I've become very passionate about writing about queerness in rural spaces, taking it out of major cities where we're used to seeing it and where perhaps the anonymity is an aid.

to the queer person in the story. And I want to focus more on queerness in rural spaces because although it's something that's underrepresented, there are queer people in all rural spaces. There are queer people absolutely everywhere in the world. And so I'm trying to shine a light on the queer people in rural Ireland. I'm going to pick up on that. But before we do, I think we should hear you reading a small section

from the book, if that's okay. I'd love to. This is where Anna, one of the four siblings, realises her attraction for another woman. Close, closer. Far closer than I would have expected a moment to go. So close now that our cheeks could touch. We share a breath.

I have never known something so intimate. From here I could count the creases that lie against her eyes. I can almost taste the sherry she drank inside, almost touching, on the edge of almost everything. and then she steps back and the inches between us feel infinite I wonder if I will ever feel close to anybody again and Anna the character

doesn't actually realise that she's gay initially you grew up in rural island but it was only like many years later that after homosexuality was decriminalised in 1993 so how was that for you and how have you put your experiences into the character of Anna well I mean in ways

we've had very different experiences just with the time between the life that she's set in and when I grew up. For Anna, she is in a situation where she hasn't seen queerness represented at all.

She doesn't know any queer people. It's not in the media. And so these feelings of attraction and desire, she's not understanding them as queerness. She's not even understanding them as attraction or desire because why would her mind go there? And for her,

it's a very intense, a very intense situation that she's in. Obviously, for me growing up, I knew about lesbianism. I had ideas, a bit vague ideas, but it was a similar thing. I didn't see it represented. I didn't know any lesbians growing up. And so similarly, it wasn't my first thought. It's not what I, you know, thought that I would end up being. Because I didn't see it as an option for myself.

It was only when I got a bit older. So when did you understand? Explain it's some intrigue to know. Yeah, I mean, I think I couldn't really compare my situation to Anna's too much. Like I said, I did have that representation. Certainly into my sort of mid-teens, late-teens, I started to understand it. But I know that there are friends of mine who knew from a very young age that they were gay growing up in rural spaces in Ireland.

And that was so difficult for them. I didn't have that experience throughout my childhood. you know, I very much think I was modelling myself on a Disney princess I was like, I'll find a prince one day, you know, down the line. And then when I was a teenager, I had a bit of a realisation and I thought, oh, things are going to look quite different for me. It's a princess, not a prince. Yeah, exactly.

You said that you, as a child, you always wanted to get away from rural island. Why did you feel that way? I think, yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Now that I'm gone from there, I think, God, I just want to get back. I'm trying to figure out ways to get back. I think it was just that feeling of always being a little bit different to everyone else and not 100% knowing why

and I thought if I get out of here I'll find my people I'll find you know a place where I fit and that's important it's important absolutely I think it's for young people it's important just to get away from wherever you grew up just to experience you know new people new ways of life new ideas but now as I'm getting a bit older I think actually

rather than queer people fleeing to cities to find refuge, I'd like I'd like to see a future where queer spaces are carved out in rural areas and we feel very happy to stay there and live our lives openly but I think it just takes a few of us leaving those cities

and going back, you know? Yeah, it takes a few of you to leave the city to write books about the experience and then go back because in 2015 Ireland became the first country to leave. same-sex marriage by popular vote. So do you think that attitudes are continuing to change?

I think so. Yeah, definitely. I mean, when you consider that homosexuality was only decriminalised in 1993 in Ireland, that is such a long way to have come in such a short space of time. I think it's really changing from what I'm seeing. I mean, I can't speak directly to the experience

now that I'm not living there. But it's even the small things. When I was home last week, Chapel Rowan was on the radio. And my parents were singing along. They were ready to sing. They knew all the words. Little things like that, I think queerness being much more of a positive part of popular culture

definitely just helps to normalise it. Yeah, if you can get my dad singing Chapel Rowan, then I think things are looking good. You're very much part of that change. Chloe Michelle Howell, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us. Thank you. And Chloe's book, Heap Earth Upon It is out today. Best of luck with that, Chloe.

A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stood myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden.

Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love Me. Available now, where ever. you get your podcasts. Now, there's been a project by the University of Bournemouth called Nourish the New You, which has been helping women who are recovering from alcohol dependency. It includes cookery lessons in order for them to reconnect with healthy foods and help their bodies repair after the damage done by alcohol.

There are also art workshops to enable the women to create, talk and learn about nutrition. While I'm joined by Dr. Chloe Casey, lecturer in a lecturer. in nutrition at Bournemouth University who set up the scheme and Catherine, one of the women who took part in the art workshops. Catherine and Chloe, welcome. Chloe, to you first. Now, you're a nutritionist. Why did you want to introduce people who had alcohol dependency to cookery and art classes? Hi, thanks for having me. So I think we all know alcohol has empty calories, but I think less people are aware of how much alcohol can disrupt the absorption of key nutrients

and it can lead to a range of nutrient deficiencies as well and when drinking at very high levels independently it really can impair people's appetite so that can really contribute to malnutrition so people can enter alcohol recovery being quite vulnerable and perhaps having those nutrient deficiencies I think vitamin B1, thiamin is the one

we probably know more about and might be more well known because as I say, alcohol interferes with the absorption of that nutrient. And why is that important? That can be really serious because it can cause neurological problems. So that is something we know quite a lot about in alcohol dependence or populations and supplements are often provided. But for most people, you can get enough vitamin B1 out of a normal, healthy standard diet.

So there's nothing to sort of worry about. But also alcohol can really disrupt the sort of balance of our gut. bacteria as well and we're learning a lot about that with the advances in science in that area so it can cause inflammation and damage and they think that actually can be sort of contributing towards the liver damage as well um and how did your interest in alcohol dependency starts it's quite personal for you this isn't it yeah so for me it is very personal i've lost someone very close to me to alcohol um my mother-in-law she was obviously a mother a grandmother other, a business owner, the heart of our family, the life and soul of any party as well.

And, you know, what started with just drinking to celebrate with family, to celebrate events and occasions did lead to dependence. And we do think that women are more likely to develop dependence more quickly than men as well. And that did eventually, it took her life at age 62 due to the complications related to liver damage. So such a sort of sad. Yeah, a sad thing that happened to my family. So I'm just really passionate about turning that sadness into hope for others, just discovering this really important therapeutic role that nutrition can play in recovery. But it's not currently a standard part of recovery pathways.

And I know you've done a bit of research into women. And I think it's important as it is women's hour to understand what's happening when it comes to specifically women in alcohol dependency. So are we seeing an increase in numbers? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So men still do drink more on average than women. And I do get this challenge sometimes when people say,

why look at women? But actually that gender gap in drinking is closing and has been closing slowly over the last few decades. But it's concerning because women are at higher risk of some of the alcohol-related health impacts due to differences in body composition mostly. Like what? So just sort of fat, sort of ratios of fat,

you know smaller body size so you know you could have a women and their sort of male counterpart drinking at high levels and the women may be more likely to develop their health related issues and as I mentioned you know there is a lot of evidence

that actually women might sort of they call it a telescoping effect so go from sort of drinking occasionally to dependence more quickly than men and also what I'm really interested in is the fact that women face such unique social culture barriers to seeking support so you know the stigma the shame

obviously motherhood and having children as well can be a real barrier to people speaking up and seeking help so tell me about the thought process behind nourish the new you and these cooking classes and what you're teaching yeah so I absolutely love this project it's brought me so much joy I can see because your face is lit up as soon as I mentioned it I've had such a great time so it was funded by the Wessex Health Partners. So I had a sort of small amount of funding, which was fantastic. And we really wanted to raise awareness of the role of nutrition and recovery.

So we wanted to explore in the very early stages, how could this be meaningfully integrated into recovery services in the community? So how can we make nutrition education exciting, accessible, engaging, and sensitive to all the sort of issues and complications of people are facing in their lives as well? Obviously, the cost was important to consider. So, you know, no one really wants a lecture in nutrition, except my amazing students at Bournemouth University, of course. But we thought, how can we make this exciting and engaging?

So I partnered with an amazing local charity called the Friendly Food Club, and they offered these cookery workshops, sort of layered with this nutrition education from me and my students as well. So they were really hands-on, really fun cooking workshops, where everyone got really involved. We were introducing really affordable, sustainable, healthy, nutritious recipes and then cooking and eating together.

So that was really fun. And then in collaboration with an incredible photographer that I work with from the Arts University, Bournemouth, we developed the creative workshops as well. So we wanted that to focus on the women's experience, really letting them create and sort of express their journeys, using food photography, arts and crafts. So we're discussing food but making it really fun and engaging

And we created this beautiful art piece together So the cookery classes are open to both men and women And then as you mentioned there's the second phase of it Which is workshops, art workshops, but they're for women only Yes And how is that taking on the idea of having a healthier relationship with food? Yeah, so we really wanted to focus on the women's experience Let them express their journeys

And really just going from that place of, you know potentially sort of harming the body before but focusing on nourishing the body now so what healthy food can I add to my diet what sort of colourful nutritious food can I add to make me feel better and yeah we used the food photography they took photos of the food they were cooking at home we printed it and then yeah it culminated in this amazing collaborative piece of art well let me bring in Catherine morning Catherine welcome um hi thank you took part in those art workshops so why did you want to be part of this project? Well, for me in the beginning, I wanted to expand my social network and I was already getting support from Weel With You, which is my local kind of alcohol

support team. And I thought I'd go along to the women's group and by chance this project was going on and I got to be a part of it and it was really brilliant. I think I was in the right place at the right time and yeah it's been a really amazing journey for me and what was the actual art that you were doing about i've heard about i've read something about a beautiful tablecloth that you've produced yes yes so we all um we printed out pictures of our own so i had a big pot of stew printed out i concentrated on the mushrooms that are in there which you know they lower your cholesterol they give you healthy skin and i also did um the leaking potato soup which they made in the cookery classes. Leaks are an amazing, like, prebiotic. They're really good for your gut,

at the age, your digestion, you know, healthy bacteria. And we also did like, like stampings and writings of words. Some of them were like negative. So from, you know, when we were drinking, we might have felt anxious or fearful, guilty. And then we did positive words, you know, connection and freedom and achievement. So it, and I had my, obviously had my photograph taken, which was great. And you were, and it was embroidery. That's what you were doing on the table. Yes.

Yes. We embroidered the pictures. So, yeah, we could choose words that highlighted what the foods gave us. And embroidered them. And what was that experience like being in a women's only group, women who have shared experience all doing something so mindful and in timeless if you like well obviously it's a lovely non-judgmental environment um we can speak openly maybe more openly than if it was a mixed group you know women can speak about things but it was nice you know i've never done embroidered before

but i learned a new skill um we chatted quite easily and you and share stories so when did you you first become dependent on alcohol? So after having my daughter, I suffered from post-natal depression. So having a drink kind of eased that depression. And then before I knew it, I was drinking every day. And then if I didn't drink, I was having like shakes and heart palpitations. So I had to keep on drinking. But I was hiding it because

I felt ashamed. And then it was only after being admitted to hospital for problems of my pancreas, that actually I had to admit it to my whole family and then I started to get help. How old were you? 27 at the time now. I'm now currently 18 months over. Congratulations. Well done. And I'm studying to be a counsellor to help other people. like me in similar situations. It's what you were saying, Chloe, the shame of what that's the different experience

that women have, that they can't talk about it openly. Yeah, it's so difficult. It's difficult for families. It's difficult for people. And yeah, as I say, especially for women, those unique barriers they have to seeking support. Also, that sort of relationship to food as well,

I think is quite interesting and important. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we have got a wonderful PhD student and a priest who's actually starting to explore this as part of her PhD is that potentially there are some sort of shared underpinnings of eating disorders and disordered eating as well with alcohol dependence. They can quite commonly sort of coexist. So looking at how that might be a barrier to recovery because when people enter recovery, it is quite common to experience obviously an increase in appetite but also sort of cravings for sugar.

they do activate the same reward pathways. So people often do, obviously, you know, they might be underweight when they enter recovery, but they do tend to gain weight, and that can be quite upsetting for people on their body image. Catherine, what, can you, I mean, what were you eating before? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Like Chloe said, empty calories.

I would just live off alcohol, and I had really low folate acid levels as well, which affected my health. But now it's important for me to keep a routine. I have breakfast every day. And also it's lovely. I have a daughter. We can cook nice, healthy meals together, sit down together and enjoy that.

So it's been a real turnaround. Can I ask? What does that feel like for you to now cook a healthy meal, you know, know about nutrition and to just be able to sit with your daughter and eat that meal together? Yeah, I feel proud. I feel like, you know, some of this stigma has left me. You know, being a mother and an alcoholic is, doesn't go well together.

But, you know, I'm proving myself and looking after her. She's lovely and healthy. She's a beautiful girl. Yeah, we enjoy cooking together. Good. It's nice to hear. And Chloe, I noticed that in the film that you've done about the project, it ends with the line that says, in loving memory of Jillian Casey,

and your mother-in-law, what are your hopes for this project? My hopes are that, you know, we can all sort of reflect on perhaps the judgment and the stigma that we might have. This can happen to anyone, you know. It goes from drinking socially, you know, drinking occasionally. It might become drinking to cope with stress. And then it can escalate to dependence. This isn't us and them thing.

This can happen to any one of us. and I think we all know people, perhaps we're concerned about, maybe we're reflecting on our sort of own drinking behaviour, but just to remove that stigma and judgment, and for me, just to turn the sadness that my family have experienced into hope, like I hope nutrition can become a part of, you know, recovery services and we can really try and focus on really supporting people when they need the support and really trying to improve that relationship they have with food.

Thank you both. for speaking to me this morning Dr. Chloe Casey and Catherine, thank you Catherine for sharing your story and if you've been affected by any of the issues we've been talking about then do go to the BBC Action Line website and we've had a message in

from one of our listeners saying I'm nearly 10 years sober I went to rehab when I was 24 and had no idea of the nutrition element very interesting work and it's called Nourish the New You if you want to kind of have a look to see if you want to watch the very lovely YouTube video all about it as well.

Now, we're joined by the British Bangladeshi choreographer and artist Amina Kayam, her new dance theatre work, Bibi Rukhia's reckless daughter opens soon in London after a national tour and explores how patriarchy is enforced not only by men, but across generations of women within family structures.

Welcome to Women's Aura, thank you for having many times. I'm delighted to be here. It's wonderful to have you here. I'm very excited. excited because I love talking about dance, but particularly this style of dance. You created this using the dance style, Kathuk. Explain to us for the uninitiated, those who don't know what Qatak is. So Katak is a South Asian dance style practiced in Bangladesh, India, Pakistan and worldwide,

as I am the example of that. And it's a storytelling form, started off as a storytelling form, and then over the kind of millennia when the mongol rulers came to India, they kind of took it on board as a storytelling form and then they transformed into a fully-fledged dance form. So we have now two aspects of it. One is the storytelling and the other is more technical element, which is very kind of physical and highly technical. Can you describe it?

What do people see when they come to watch it? I hope they see the story that we are trying to tell. But in terms of visual, spins, footwork, music, of course, light music, costuming, lighting, everything. But in terms of the form, we are using all those elements, including big vocabularies to tell the story. So the story is about Bibi Rukia, and she's a complex figure. She's a widow who confines her three daughters in response to societal pressure

to protect her family's reputation and to secure their marriage. bridges. How does, did your show start life? Where did this idea come from? Why did you want to tell this story? I grew up with those stories, really. I grew up, I come from those communities and over the last 15 years I've been working with different groups of communities in UK and discovering stories within those communities that, well, usually they're not heard. I mean, we see these kind of communities floating around London all the time, but we don't know nothing about them and there was a judgment about them as well and I think one of the thing I wanted to do is to work with these same women to hear their stories and and hear how

this particular theme affect their lives and also there are a lot of judgment about these women when you see them you know they're suppressed and they're upset you know don't have their own voices and so women from marginalized communities that's correct yeah marginalized communities who are quite often judged and I wanted to kind of bring that into light their stories where they're coming from and what are their stories and as a dance artist

I always try to find stories that impact our communities impact our society as a whole not just to the traditional mythological stories stories about gods and goddesses and mythology but also going deeper into the contemporary stories about particularly women, because I grew up with nine sisters in our family.

Goodness me. So they kept going? They kept going. Did they have a son eventually? One. One. Okay. Is he the youngest?

But there are two mothers involved. How is that? It was amazing. You know, both, but mostly amazing. Wonderful. Having sisters, lovely. So I think, so I grew up with a lot of issues of women, seeing my mother, seeing my aunties. seeing, you know, my sisters.

Like what? Like what? Okay. Because the play is about patriarchy and how women, as we know, they fly the flag. Exactly, exactly. Totally. And that's exactly what the piece is about, looking at why women fly that flag for men. And why do they do it to each other? Why they're so severely, I would say, they were nasty really, very cruel to each other.

And I think that goes back centuries. It's the conditioning of the women. You know, women want allowed to do a lot, you know, back in the Victorian time, if you look at that time. You know, they're not allowed to do a lot. They're there to entertain. They're there to be the trophy wives or girlfriends and things like that. And to an extent, that still goes on. But I just wanted to look at what has patriarchy has done to.

generations of women and how that has conditioned us to believe this is the norm and this is how it should be. So therefore, we impose all those thoughts onto other women, particularly on our daughters. So example will be like even my own story, my mom. You know, she desperately wanted to leave my father. And I came to her age when I was a teenage. Yeah, I said, okay, I'm going to help you. And I did all this, everything that I could do to help her. And did she leave? Of course not. The pressure, the pressure of not, you know, like what would happen to your daughters, particularly when you've got so many daughters, you know, nobody will marry them, nobody will look at them. If she's a divorced mother. Exactly, exactly.

And she stayed until the end when he died. How did they feel about you wanting to become a dancer? Wasn't very good. Still not very good. My mom still asked me, when are you going to get a real job? She still asked me that even now. Has she seen the show? She has. I mean, one of the most proud moment for me was when I did my debut in Kathak dance. And it was month of Ramadan. And in Ramadan, women don't go out. And I was like, because I plund it a year ahead, I didn't have a clue. It was, you know, it's going to clash. And she came. She came. And she stole the show, to be honest, from everybody. But she did come. But I think it's not a part that she's not proud. I think it's a

more about the whole notion of our society, what people are going to say. I mean, even till today, nobody knows I dance. My, you know, like extended family. They might now. Sorry to say that. If they're listening, she dances. And very well as well. Thank you.

The title is really interesting, reckless daughter. Why did you want to call it reckless daughter? Goodness, where can I start? I mean, we, you know, there is always somebody in the family, especially when you go so many daughters, are trying to, rake the boat. And I have to say I was one such daughter, was quite adamant of wanting to do what I wanted to do and have my own voice and own kind of identity. And it was hard both living in a culture where racism was really rife at that time. And I grew up in a very village in

Surrey. So being the only non-white people living there was quite difficult. At the same time, you know, I have no connection to my own culture either. So it was kind of a conflict thing going on with me. And then when I discovered a bar dance, I say in my late teens, I literally sneaked out and went to those classes. And I used to terrorize my mom for giving me money because child benefit, you know, it's for me, you know, so that kind of thing. And I used to go out and pay for those classes.

So a beautiful Indian. classical dance form that is classical and there's one of a few in the in south Asia but the Victorians demonised it yeah I think when the British rule India they banned all the styles I mean I wouldn't say they were known as classical then because they were just dance and so when they were banned although they banned them but they used them for their own entertainment and I think one of the thing that keeps coming up about dance

because dance is always at the bottom of the pile when it comes to engaging in the arts and that's because of the reputation that it has of being used and abused and trafficked as well for entertainment but I think that's changing now definitely changing

what's the response from the audience being it's been amazing the audience are most of the audience come to see it, particularly women who we have been engaging with anywhere prior to the show. So we do a series of workshop with them where they explore the theme of the project

and also share their own experience of the same subject. And they also perform themselves. So we have a something called Forum, Performance Forum Lab, where we engage with the women and women explore the subject and then they perform something from that, you know, from

the exploration. And then beyond that, we then take those stories and then make a work with professional dances and musicians. Yeah, and it's about a woman trying to control her daughters. It is that. And it's just looking at how, but it's not necessarily demonizing the mother character. Mother is also a condition to do what she does. Exactly.

She enforces. She knows no better. Exactly. And she, you know, she enforces those patheical rule for who? That's what we've been discussing. Well, yeah. But also maybe she's trying to protect her daughters. She thinks that.

That's what it is. isn't it? It's all about, I mean, her intention is good, but you end up having so much issues like, you know, while I was working, there was a young woman who committed suicide for exactly the same reason within that community. So can you, without obviously name me any names, what happened? So the story goes that she, university student, wasn't allowed to go to university, to, sorry, allowed to leave home to study. She has to come back home. but her life was made held by the parents because she went to university they're going to lose her or they're going to she's going to bring shame to the family

so they really controlled her and I think it was just too much for her in the end that's incredibly sad which is why it's important to tell these stories and you want to reach those communities absolutely and young women and young men as well but I do I do reach the community

and they do come and see the show particularly the women that I work with So if you do come and see the show, you will see them in the audience. I mean, have you had to live with? I mean, you've broken free. I mean, you're one of the so-called breakfast daughters. How do you, have you, have you, did you have to live with shame? Have you come to terms with it?

Is your mom okay? Of course, but I think I also, I was quite in tune with a lot of the stuff quite early on in my life. And I think that's why I did what I did. But at the same time, I love my mom to death, you know. And she has done her. best. And I understand how more, as I get older, I understand her decisions more and more. I'm intrigued to know only because it's so personal to me. And I don't, I know my mom won't mind me saying this, but I had a conversation with my mom about conditioning and, you know, patriarchy.

And I said, you brought me up my entire life saying, you must do this, otherwise they will say this. You must do that. Otherwise, they will say that. And I sat in front of phone. This was really recent. And I said, Mama, answer me one question. Who are they? and she looked at me and said Yeah, no one. No one. So I wonder if you've had us, have you talked to your mum about it?

I've never really had a conversation with her about this because I think it's a very difficult conversation. First of all, my mum never studied. She's not literate. And she has got that very insular understanding of life which is between those four walls and what she's been told, both from religious perspective and culturally.

So she never really reached out or went out of that doorstep, if you like, to discover more life. And I remember recently I took her to this woman, sort of this gathering locally. And she said, I wish, I wish I learned English. Why didn't I do it? So she has those feelings there. But saying all of that stuff, she did really try to her best to, you know, educate her. us because she wasn't educated, she's struggled for that as well. Yeah.

And that's, but she has brought up a remarkable young daughter who's doing amazing stuff. So, you know, there is that. Well, I hope so. Thank you. And the performance, B.B. Rooker's reckless daughter is on at the place. Yes. In Kings Cross. That's right.

And then you're on tour. We will be on tour from next year. So we're opening on the third, sorry, fourth and fifth at the place. Yeah, Amina, thank you so much for coming in and talking to me. I've really enjoyed that conversation. Thank you for having you. I'm going to read out one of your messages here. It says when I was 35 about to go to a meeting,

I was very smart and had a long gold chain around my neck. My visiting mother looked horrified and said, it's pearls before lunch. That was the moment I realized quite how many ridiculous social norms my mother felt restricted by. She lived in fear of getting it wrong. Here we go. So very sad, but liberating to have always had my own ideas about what to wear, however difficult it was for her to handle.

Brilliant. She was born in 1920 when rules were everywhere. Fiona, thank you so much for that message. And another one here saying I had my son at 27, had a crippling postnatal depression. By the time he was six months old, I was an alcoholic. My entire childhood was spent around people with drink and drug problems. I'm now three years sober, married, live happily with my husband and son,

and I'm in my first year of a classical studies degree. I feel like my ultimate rebellion as an eldest daughter, my son has no memories of me drinking and hopefully he will never see me drunk. So we'll have a very different childhood to my own. Women talking openly and honestly about alcoholism is so incredibly brave. Thank you for making the shame dissipate slightly this morning. And thank you for getting in touch with that message. Join me tomorrow for Funtmore Woman's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. How did Bruce Springsteen become the boss? And what did it cost him to get there? Maybe I was the guy that gets the guitar, I get the car, I get the girl, then it adds up to a big, so what. From the makers of the award-winning first season of legend, join me, Laura Barton, for the story of my favorite artist, Bruce Springsteen. We'll get to know the life beyond the legend to discover how a scrawny, long-haired introvert from small-town New Jersey transformed into the iconic rock star figure of his 80s glory. We're all going.

He has muscles now, which was a little hard to take, because we were scrawny. Do we have to go get muscles? Legend, the Bruce Springsteen story from BBC Radio 4. Listen first on BBC Sounds. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate.

I think I cried almost every day. I just stood myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love Me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.