Woman's Hour - 31/03/2026

Episode Date: March 31, 2026

Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower.

Well, we've got six new episodes. for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Hello and thank you for being with us.

On the programme, we are putting a spotlight on violence against women and girls in Northern Ireland this morning. Two women were violently killed in the country this month, and it's been described as part of the UK where it is the most dangerous to be a woman. So what is going on? And what's being done about it? Also on the programme, the singer, songwriter and actor Rita Wilson will join us to talk about her new album. a collection of deeply personal songs about the rollercoaster of womanhood. It explores some of what has come her way over the years from motherhood to surviving breast cancer.

And I want to ask you about another artist celebrated for her courage who was in the news this morning. Celine Dion, she's announced her return to stage four years after she was diagnosed with an incurable condition that has impacted her singing voice and her ability to walk. She told fans she's feeling nervous but strong. and excited. So what's your reaction to Celine Dion's return to the big stage? You might be hoping to grab a ticket to one of those concerts in Paris later this year. Maybe you too have reached a point in your life where you've thought you would never return to, but you have done with much joy and much success. Tell us your story as well. You can text the program. The number is

84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We are at BBC, Women's Hour and of course you can email us through our website as well. And we're going to talk about fashion sizes as research from Vogue business finds fewer larger sizes both on the catwalk and in the shops. Have you noticed a change in fashion sizes on your shopping trips on the high street or online? Two fashion experts will tell us what they believe is happening and why. Plus pregnant women and cancer patients are facing delays having vital ultrasound scans, due to a lack of staff which is risking lives. That's according to the Society of Radiographers.

It warns that one in four NHS sonographer job posts are vacant in England. You might have experienced a period of waiting for a long-needed or urgent scan as well. We will learn more. It is 84844 to get in touch on any of the stories that we are talking about this morning. But first, with all the volatility unfolding worldwide geopolitically, and indeed in the markets, we want to spend some time this morning looking at an important story that you might have missed. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland said last week

that it is shameful that Northern Ireland is the part of the UK where it is most dangerous to be a woman. He described this scale of the violence against women and girls in the area as I quote a source of enormous sadness and shame. 30 women have been violently killed in Northern Ireland since 2020. The latest victim died only in. a few weeks ago. She was 28-year-old Amy DeHurte, and only nine days before her, 23-year-old Ellie Flanagan was killed. Of the 30 women killed, in all but one, the perpetrator, or

suspected perpetrator, has been a man. In most, the man was well known to the woman. So why has Northern Ireland been described as the part of the UK where it's most dangerous to be a woman and what's being done about the violence against women and girls there? to discuss. I'm joined now by Alison Morris from the Belfast Telegraph, who has covered violence against women and girls in the country for many years. Also, BBC journalist Jennifer O'Leary, who has made a documentary telling the story of domestic violence in Northern Ireland through the tale of a women's refuge. And also with us is Mary Brown, CEO of Foil Women's Aid and Foil Family Justice Centre.

Welcome to you all. Just a warning that this conversation will contain some references to violence, which listeners may find distressing as well. Alison, I will start with you. What do you believe prompted Hillary, Ben, to make that comment about violence against women and girls in Northern Ireland in the Commons last week? I think when you look at the sheer numbers

and girls that we talk about in the situation and the fact that the political intervention is essential in terms of legislation and other protective measures, it seemed inevitable that the Secretary of State would have to say something. I mean, we live in a very small, population of 1.9 million people and the number of women who have been murdered. I mean, while Amy Doherly was being murdered, while Ellie Flanagan was being murdered,

I was sitting in a trial for Natalie McNally. Stephen McCullough, her former partner, was on trial for murdering her. She was 15 weeks pregnant at the time when she was killed. And while I was sitting listening to the evidence, so horrific evidence in that case, two other women were murdered just during the time that trial was taking place. You know, we try and count and try and document the number of women who are being murdered here. But there's times that you're working on the story and before you have it finished, you have to add more names to it because this happens so often. And as you say, this is violence in the home.

This is at a place where people should feel safe but are not. And it's almost always an intimate partner. But in some occasions, and we are seeing an increase in violence against women from other relatives. So sons and grandsons, for instance, and if there was only one reason why this was happening here, well then we could go and fix that and solve it. It's a combination of many different things. And we will explore the reasons.

And we will continue to explore the reasons in our conversation. As you rightly point out, Northern Ireland has a population of 1.9 million. And the figure is very troubling. But we should say that it is impossible to say whether Northern Ireland is statistically the most dangerous place in the UK to be a woman as per Hillary Brent. And that is due to the way the data is compiled.

but you've given us an understanding of what you have witnessed in the courts and your understanding of the situation. What has been the reaction more broadly in Northern Ireland? I think it's interesting because this was something that I don't think was spoken about enough. You know, we have a very troubled past. And that troubled past dominated the headlines. And so everything here, policing, our justice system, the courts, and even people's attitudes, were based on a sort of justice and security type method of

policing. And it's only, I suppose, in the last maybe 10 or 15 years that we've moved away to discussing these things. It's not that women were not being murdered here in the past. They were. It's just that our security situation took precedent in the headlines. And the murders of women, we also had come from quite a conservative patriarchal society, quite a religious, patriarchal society where, you know, divorce was frowned upon, where women stayed in dangerous relationships long after they should have let them and the media itself I don't think paid enough attention

it's only now Jennifer's program was amazing and I think the work that a lot of us are doing I think it's probably because there's more female journalists working in the field of crime and security but also looking at these type of issues and giving them prominence the fact that I'm sitting here having this conversation

with you is a good thing because it means that we are talking about it more and that we know that when many women are murdered there's been multiple incidents of violence prior to the murder. They might already be known to the police in terms of making emergency calls. They are often known to the family courts in terms of trying to get non-molestation orders and protective orders to protect them before that happens. So there are red flags and warning signs that can be acted on.

Sometimes and not always, you know, in some cases this is something that happens out of the blue. But I think that Harvey talk about it's very important. I took part in a women's aid project to look at media reporting guidelines and how are the media reports on these incidents because sometimes in the past, the reporting of these incidents has been less and helpful. You know, where we put the, we call the perpetrator, you know, the pillars of society and out of character and snapped

because, you know, his wife was going to leave him and putting the blame on the victim. And I think that we need to be really careful to you about the language that we use when we're speaking about these incidents. Alison, let me put to you a state. that we received a short time ago from Northern Ireland's Justice Minister Naomi Long, who says the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland operates within a severely constrained budget, and I have consistently made the case for more investment.

My department has a very positive working of relationships across the voluntary and community sector, and I am grateful to our partners for how creatively they have met funding challenges and most of all for their commitment to support the justice system. However, to keep everyone safe and to support victims effectively, this requires additional funding than is currently available. She also added, my department has applied to the Transformation Fund with a view to assisting the ending violence against women and girls' strategic framework by tackling domestic and sexual abuse.

And then she goes on to say legislation alone cannot eliminate violence against women and girls. This requires societal change based on collaboration across departments and effective resourcing of frontline services, including policing. Now, the Transformation Fund mentioned there is money from, Westminster allocated by the Northern Ireland executive. So is this all a question of priorities? I wonder what you make of that statement. Well, it's interesting because we know that legislation alone can solve the problem,

but it is a big part of what is happening. And we were the last part of these islands to get course of control legislation, the last place to get stalking legislation, and those stalking preventative orders. And just a few months ago, I had done a story in relation to stocking. And when I asked, there had only been four stock and prevention orders given out since that legislation come into place. And having laws and legislation is no use unless they're actually being used and enacted on. We also, because of budget funds and because we've had a strike as well with the barristers,

have a massive backlog in the courts. And if you're a victim of domestic violence of any kind, domestic and sexual violence, and you're having to wait two to three years for your case to come to court, In that case, many people drop out of that. And we've seen the people who have pulled statements and withdrawn statements from the police. I've then gone on to suffer really serious violence elsewhere. And so in light of what you've said there, Alison,

I wonder what you make of the fact that, you know, in 2024 Northern Ireland launched its ending violence against women and girls' strategy. In light of what you said, would you say it's not progressing as it should be? Well, I think the strategy was really, really welcomed and it was long, I've been called for for a long time. it isn't being properly resourced and funded. A lot of the projects are being funded out of existing pots of money

and there's no point in having a strategy and they should really commit to it. And I do think that any resistance to it as well, there was a lot of cases where there's types of trying to sort of maybe water down what that strategy would look like and we need to be really honest and serious about what the problem is here. Look, we do have, there's very, very violent men who live here

and we cannot say that there isn't a link between that in our recent conflict and the fact that they are the children or maybe people who grew up during that conflict. And also we have to look at other issues too, which really require legislation in the online safety bill, such as the easy access to really violent online pornography and other issues, which we know are having an impact in how young people are viewing healthy relationships.

And we can see through the non-fatal strangulation legislation, which is quite recent. That is one part of the law, which is working really well. But it is shocked even me, who I didn't think, was shockable at this stage of my career in terms of just how many people have been charged since that legislation come into force. Alison, stay with us. I want to bring in Mary Brown and Jennifer O'Leary, waiting patiently to join our conversation. Mary, as CEO of Foyles Women's Aid and the Foyle Family Justice Centre, you have worked on the issue of violence against women for some 32 years. How do you assess the situation at the moment?

Well, you know, I would concur with Alice and we have a range of problems. I think we just need to spell it out. We have to acknowledge that we have a very destructive culture in Northern Ireland that's borne out of some of the patriarchal nature of how, you know, how Northern Ireland is. I think the troubles have had their impact because we brought out some research with Dr. Ashling Swain on coercive control and communities and that was hard to do. Over 100 women told their stories. We printed 12 of them.

But that course of control still exists to a certain level in those communities. So women are afraid to come forward or they do or they're dealing with it in their own communities. So that's an issue for women coming forward with domestic violence. And then we touch upon the legislation. We are poorer in legislation, and I accept that Justice Minister has had to try and put legislation on the ground in Northern Ireland. In a very challenging time with the government going down twice, and all that legislation was delayed. Some of the legislation doesn't go as far as the UK or Scotland legislation. So it's weak, weaker.

And just highlight to us what points you are specifically talking about, where it doesn't go far enough? Well, we didn't have housing or safe places to our domestic abuse bill, and that has been really, really, that's been a block or barrier for women needing accommodation coming out of domestic violence, and that was a real disappointment. And I think it was about resources then,

not going far enough with resources. And that was down to the Assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly. The legislation that we have rolled out, there isn't enough resources attached to that to properly bed and implement and train and have it properly embedded. So if you just put resources of a shoestring, that you're going to get. and in terms of the agency placing ourselves, social services, not properly funded. Right. We've been on the violence issue for decades. The police need to be properly resourced.

John Boucher has already up front and saying he does not have the resources to keep women safe here. And it's a human rights issue. It's not a devolved matter. It's a human rights issue. I'm hearing the word resources and funding coming up time and time again in both what you have been saying, and Alison as well. Jennifer, you decided to make a documentary about domestic abuse in Northern Ireland for the investigative program Spotlight. It's called Derry Girls' Decades of Domestic Abuse. And it's told through the history of the FOIL Women's Aid Refuge.

Why did you decide to make the documentary and what did you find? Well, one of the ways to bring about societal change is in the sharing and the telling of stories. and we wanted to tell the story of domestic abuse through the prism of foil women's aid. London Derry, Derry, of course, is a city widely considered to be a crucible, the crucible of the troubles, and yet for decades it's a city that has lived with peace largely.

And everything has changed, and yet for many women, nothing has changed in that city. And we wanted to bring the audience into, a refuge that has for 50 years been a place of safety. We were very privileged that the contributors trusted us with their story.

And one of them, Karen, she was a child when she first was in the refuge in 1980 for three years at just seven years of age. And as an adult in recent years, she had to go back and use the services of full women's aid again following a series of of abusive relationships.

And her story demonstrates the trauma that she carried through her life. And yet in sharing her story, she also demonstrates that there is a life to be lived after abuse and that there is health out there. And it's so important

in the context of what's happening and those dreadful numbers across Northern Ireland right now. Jennifer, we heard from Mary talking about the fact that Northern Ireland is battling with quite a conservative outlook in so many ways. And I wonder with that in mind, was it difficult to find people to open up and take part in the documentary? And is that part of the problem here? It is difficult and it is challenging for people to sit down in front of the camera and share the most personal details of their life.

And we were in a privileged position to be working with four women, Aid on this documentary. And one of the things as well that we really wanted to achieve is that domestic abusers crave control. And the more the audience can understand that, the more that

journalists can respond better in the sharing and telling of stories, the more that responders who are informed about the manifestations of such control can better respond. So yes, it is difficult for people to share their stories. but we did not want to focus in this documentary

on the most awful aspect or the most awful episode of the contributors' experiences. We wanted to share and for them to tell their lives before and after their experiences. And again, it's just so important that their stories empower those who are listening,

that there is help out there. And again, to re-emphasise the point that there is, there is a life to be lived after domestic abuse. Yes, your documentary really captures the human dimension of what is such a pertinent issue here. Mary, I'll turn back to you for some closing thoughts. The UK government has said it is committed

to harving violence against women and girls within a decade. We've also heard from Chief Constable John Butcher of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and he said violence against women and girls is a significant priority for the police service of Northern Ireland. He says lots of work is being done, including commissioning a review of how the force is dealing with incidents of violence against women. The intentions are there that this should not be happening. What do you think needs to happen next to fix this issue?

Well, I think the UK government, there are key things that the funding coming in to Northern Ireland, some of it that was put out for domestic violence didn't reach domestic violence project. When it was transferred over to Northern Ireland, it wasn't hypothesized into domestic violence project. It actually went into a big black hole, a pot, and went out to other things. So I think that they need to have, they can put some influence to making sure that any money that comes over from the UK, specifically for that reason should stay within the services and should be distributed to the key agencies that do that. Okay, so it's coming back to that key issue of funding and finances once again.

Thank you all for your time. Of course, what you've shared there, we don't have full evidence about, and we don't have the funding figures to hand either. But thank you for joining us, Alison Morris from the Belfast-Teleaf, BBC journalist Jennifer O'Leary and Mary Brown, CEO of Foyle Women's Aid and Foil Family Justice Centre. And I will say that there is more information and support for anyone impacted by the issues in this discussion on the BBC Action Line website as well. Next, Rita Wilson is a singer, songwriter and actress.

And she is starred in a multitude of films and TV shows, including the bonfire of the vanities, Seapleas and Seattle Runaway Bride, and is the movie producer behind the blockbuster franchises, Mama Mia and My Big Fat Greek Wedding. I'm sure we've all seen a few of those. With five albums under her belt, Rita has duetted with icons, including Willie Nelson, Smokey Robinson and Elvis Costello, as well as collaborations such as Till Your Home from the film, A Man Called Otto with the Latin Grammy winner Sebastian Yatra.

She also produced a film which starred her husband, Tom Hanks. She's now here with a new album of Deeply Personal Songs, Sound of a Woman. Delighted to say, Rita joins me in the studio now. Welcome. Thank you. So nice to be here. Now, this album, it is a collection of deeply personal songs. It follows the journey, the arc of a woman's life.

What led you to create this now? Well, part of it is just I'm at an age where I'm thinking about things in a very different way. My co-writer, Amy Wajanai, really wanted to explore different phases of a woman's life. But I think it's very much motivated by the fact that. that I have a very public job and I'm a very private person. And so it was a way to explore the things that are really going on in your own mind. But I found that it wasn't just me. It was also all of my girlfriends and the woman that I knew or that I was aware of.

So it's really about finding, in a way, finding your own voice. As you say, you're a very public figure, you're an actress, you're a film producer. Were you always singing? Well, in the shower. Very well in the shower. But I didn't really come into singing in this incarnation until I started songwriting, which was about 13 years ago. And that really opened up a whole different world for me. Part of it was, I kind of like to think about this Joan Didian quote that I read and I'll probably

mangle, I won't get it right, but she was asked about writing and she said, how do I know what I'm thinking unless I'm writing about it? And songwriting really opened that up for me. And I was able to say things in a song that maybe you wouldn't be able to say as easily just in real life. And of course there's always plausible deniability because you have a co-writer, in this case, my dear friend Amy Wodge.

Well, before we continue talking about the album and the rest of your work, let's take a moment to listen to the song. Wow. Thank you so much. That was beautiful. Sound of Woman, accompanied there by Adam Chepwood on the guitar, Rob Gentry on the piano,

and Rachel Lunder on the cello. That was stunning, Rita. Thank you. The words will resonate with so many women who feel like they carry the load of the world on their shoulders? I hope so. You know, I feel like when you write these things, you believe that you're writing them for yourself,

but you hope that other people might be having a shared experience. I mean, my dream for this album is that conversations will be started amongst women, amongst the men in their lives. One of the wonderful things was I was playing the album in a car here in England and the driver was a very very proper young man and at the end of it he said is

that you? And I said yeah and he said well you've made me quite weepy. Yeah. And I said what? And he said yes it's like everything I've heard from my mother, my sisters, my girlfriends and it's just I've never heard it in that way and I was like

so I made you weepy? And he said yes and I said well you've made my day. I mean, it's so emotive. And you mentioned the driver's mother there. Well, let's talk about your mother, because there is a track in which you explore the bond that a child has with her mother. Talk us through the bond with your mother and the relationship you've had with her. My mom was amazing. She was an incredible woman. She was Greek heritage. She was full of love. the conversation in this song is really about, you know, my mom passed away at 93. She had Alzheimer's.

But there are still things that I wished that I had been able to ask her. And that song that you're referring to, your mother, is really exploring this idea, do our children really know us? Do they have any questions for us? I mean, they come into our lives and they already know us as mother. but do they know anything about what we were like as young girls and what our fears were and what our you know desires were and did we get everything what hurt us the most and so I wanted to explore that idea that please keep having these conversations with your parents

while they're alive you know because they're you will have questions when they go can I ask you if I may what you wish you would ask your mother so many things You know, my mom was a really great cook, and I wished I had asked her very specific things about the recipes that she made because I copied her. I knew that there were things, but I know that some things just don't taste the same. She never measured anything. It's like my mom. Yeah, she just put in her own amounts of her, right, as she was talking and doing a million other things, multitasking. but things like that

and I think there were things from her childhood that I would have liked to have asked her more. I think that will connect with so many people. When it comes to your own journey with motherhood, how does that play out in the music? Well, I think mostly it's you know you come into your life as a young girl

and you're giving these labels in a way that you love, sometimes that you've wanted and sometimes they're not, but you're a good girl, and then you're a sassy teen, and then you're a working woman, and then you're a wife, and then you're a mother, and all of those things are sort of these external labels that people assign, or our society assigns to us, but I think women are so much more complex and so much deeper, and along those lines, I do feel that it's about what is it that you want to say? What is it that you really want to get to in your life in terms of the essence of who you are? So for my children, I think it's been a wonderful opportunity to just let them see that I could even start doing music later in my life and that we shouldn't be defined by time or by the clock.

There's no clock on creativity, I like to say, because who's to say that you can't be doing things at a certain point in your life? And I hope that they take that in their own way of empowering themselves to do things that they feel they should be doing in their hearts. Your music is also partly informed by your own experience with your own health, overcoming breast cancer, bodily changes as well. Tell us about that relationship with the body. Oh, so different. You know, we're so many different women over the course of our lives. Like the person I was as a teenager and the body I was as a teenager as a teenager is very different. Having had breast cancer, the relationship I have to my body was very different because, you know, you have a baby. your body goes through all of those physical changes, external, internal.

Then you can nurture that baby if you choose to nurse your child. And then you go through these other physical changes when you get to a certain age. We go through menopause. It's such an extraordinary machine that we have here. And at the same time, even when I was going through breast cancer, I felt, Wow, my body's extraordinary. It's still helping me heal. It's still helping me get to the next phase.

It's not giving up on you. It's not giving up on me. We heard Celine Dionza news today, also who's had her own health challenges, returning to the stage. How did you feel hearing that? Ecstatic. I think she's one of the most incredible singers and one of the most vibrant, positive people. And I'm thrilled to see that she's going to be passionate.

our listeners are also thrilled. We've had a few messages in about that. Let me squeeze in a few. This one from Sarah, who says that thanks for getting in touch about Celine Dion's return to the big stage. And she says, sorry, I'm just trying to find the exact me.

I'm 59, she says, and was delighted that she hasn't lost it on the slopes and got one home in peace. And Chabon says, I want to share, well, this is about redefining yourself after a health challenge. And Chiborne says, I want to share,

my absolute joy to be able to return to playing golf. I was diagnosed with arthritis at the age of 23 and struggled for many years with pain, immobility and extreme fatigue. I now play golf two to three times a week and I'm ever grateful for this new lease of life. And for you, it's been singing as well. But prior to singing, you are also, or you are an actor and a producer of films like Mama Mia, like my big fact Greek wedding. Your mother was of Greek heritage.

So this really connected with you. Very much so. Yeah. I love anything, any kind of project that I'm involved in, I really hope, gives people joy and allows people to see themselves in a different way or in a fresh way. You know, when we made my Big Fat Greek wedding, we thought, oh, this is very much resonant for me because I have Greek heritage, Bulgarian heritage. But what we found out was that other people felt the same way and they could be Chinese or Indian or Italian or. anywhere, but they felt that's speaking to me. And to make us in a way laugh at ourselves and our own quirks is a good thing. Can I just put this message to you from a listener who says, I just turned on the radio after dropping off the kids. The sound of a woman was playing, and I just started crying.

Very much knelt on the head my life right now. Wow. I want to talk to her. I want to say thank you. makes me teary. It doesn't surprise me. It doesn't surprise me. That really just feels so lovely to hear because, again, it's that hope that your own experience will somehow resonate with someone else. Oh, that's beautiful.

Real-time radio, the power of radio. Yeah, so true. You also explore marriage in your music as well. And you have also produced during your time films at that is starred your husband, Tom Hanks. And the song marriage, it's an unvarnished, you. yet a light-hearted look at the peaks and valleys of a long-term partnership. What is the key to a long partnership? That is so funny.

A girlfriend of mine says not getting divorced. I think that's very funny. I would probably say, look, you know, shared values, definitely. And I read this thing that I thought was really, really, accurate. And it said that long-term relationships, long-term marriages really are about, not that you have to do everything together and you have to have all the same interests, but that you support the other person's interests when you're doing something. For example, if somebody like the woman who is playing golf now, if she loves playing golf but her partner

doesn't, but he's okay with her going off and playing golf. And he's, you know, has coffee with friends or something when she's doing that, that's great. So I like this idea that you support each other's interests and at the same time you are also doing the things that you like to do. You have such a positive energy in this room right now. Oh, thank you. You've been on tour in the US. When might people here in the UK be able to see you? Well, I'm very happy.

I will be here in November touring and I'm doing, I think I can. can announce this now, right? He's nodding, yes. I will be doing the London Jazz Festival in November and also a headlining show around that same time here in London and then I'll be going to Glasgow and other dates to be announced as well as in Europe. I wish we had more time to chat. Thank you, Krista. Thank you for joining us here on Women's Hour. And the Sound of a Woman by Rita Wilson Wilson is out on the first. The song is out now. The song is out now. The song is out now. The album is out. On the 1st of May. Very important. If you want to hear the whole thing, you've got to wait a few weeks. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. And thank you for all of your messages coming in. Do keep them coming in. It's 8484 to send us a text message or at BBC Women's Hour. Should you wish to get in touch over on social media. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed.

And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Next, the society of radiographers has said that the demand for ultrasounds has increased, but that there aren't enough people being trained to do the work.

They say this is leading to pregnant women and cancer patients facing delays for vital ultrasound scans, which could be really dangerous for the patient. NHS sonographers who carry out scans at 12 and 20 weeks of pregnancy and help diagnose cancers warn that one in four job posts are currently vacant across England at a time when the NHS is already under acute stress. But what implications does this shortage have and how crucial is the work of sonographers in our eyes? healthcare system. Joining me now is Rachel Nolan, President-elect of the Society of Radiographers, which also represents sonographers. Welcome to the program, Rachel. First of all, before we get into the details of this, I want to go right back to basics. When we talk about radiographers and sonographers, help me understand the difference here. A radiographer trains to take x-rays or deliver therapeutic treatment if they're a therapeutic radiographer. Most synographers train in a radiographer.

first and then go on to do a two-year postgraduate degree diploma to train further in ultrasound. Thank you for that clarity. I think it's really important to have that. Right. On to the concern here at hand, what are you calling up for? We really want the government and Department of Health to help us get more training places and for these training places to be conducted correctly, giving capacity for the training at the moment. We've already got pressurised, busy ultrasound. and we're trying to train staff at the same time, which is not conducive to either a good training environment or a good outcome at the end of it. So I think we've noticed over the last few years there are less people training in ultrasound as well, but I think that's partly

due to the sort of conditions at the end of it because everybody is under so much pressure and ultrasound has actually become a victim of its own success. It tends to be the first investigation for a lot of patients, both in obstetrics and obviously for cancer as well. Essentially, they're on the front line. And are you talking about people not taking to the job or not looking to study it further because of that pressure? I think that's part of it. I mean, I work in a department where we have a lot of staff that love to train in ultrasound and I actually work somewhere. We're quite lucky with the training we can supply. But I think in a lot of departments, there's so much pressure on the sonographers because they've got these vacancies,

trying to train at the same time as doing the workload is really, really difficult and it's leading to stress and to burn out. And also to musculoskeletal injuries, which is a known issue for synographers getting RSI. Interesting. So on one hand, we don't have enough people taking up the job, but we have an increase in demand for ultrasounds. What's going on there? Why has it increased?

In obstetrics, there's been a lot of changes in the provision we give to pregnant women. there are the two standard scans at 12 weeks and 20 weeks, but women obviously are all assessed and there are a lot more that are deemed high risk. So they come in and they need growth scans further in the pregnancy. With multiple pregnancies, some women are having scans every two weeks. Or if a problem's identified in the community, they'll be brought in and a scan really needs to be done within 24 to 48 hours. But in general ultrasound, a lot of patients are now having ultrasound as the first examination,

rather than going for CT or MRI. Because obviously we're not using ionising radiations. It's a quick, straightforward test for patients to have compared to, say, MRI. It's important to stress because we don't want to alarm women, especially if they're pregnant, that there isn't necessarily a correlation between a need for more scans in pregnancy

and a riskier pregnancy. No. I think everybody's sort of assessed on an individual need. And it's a very fine balancing act of where we send our sonographers to work. And I think because a lot of things are very time critical in obstetrics, that is where the workforce tends to end up gravitating to. And it is the general ultrasound that tends to suffer more. And then we're trying to do patients that are on cancer pathways.

We are talking about England here. What is happening in other parts of the UK? In the Devolved Nations, there are equally as many problems with training places. I'm seeing the same sort of issues across all four nations with sort of sonographer shortages. Which is a concern, of course, because if it's happening across the nation, we have asked the Department of Health and Social Care for a statement, and a spokesperson for the department said,

we recognise the pressures of facing diagnostic services, including the sonography workforce, and we are taking action to ensure the NHS has the skilled staff. It needs to meet rising demand and deliver. timely care to patients. They add that we have already taken action to expand services for patients rolling out new community diagnostic centres and expanding opening hours, keeping patients away from busy hospitals and cared for in their local communities. Are you seeing the impact of any of these initiatives that they say?

Yes, unfortunately, what the government have said about expanding services, rolling out community diagnostic centres and extending the opening hours, it's the same staff providing the services. So we're spreading ourselves even thinner. There is good reason to do patients out in the community. That's not the issue. It's the fact that actually rolling out the community diagnostic centres, I don't think the government took into account actually how much more workforce you need

to be able to provide those services. Rachel Nolan, thank you for joining us with your expertise here on Women's Hour. If you'd like to read more about that story, there are more details over at BBC News Online. And we've had a lovely message in from Andrew who was listening to Rita Wilson a short time ago talking about the secret to a long and healthy relationship. He says, I've been with my wife for 40 years

and I love the supportive independence approach to, which is what Rita was talking about, encouraging each other, even if you have different interests as well. Next, a recent vogue business size inclusivity reports has documented a decline in the use of models with bigger bodies on the catwalk. And I want to throw a few of those figures, way of the almost 8,000 looks presented across over 180 shows and presentations for

the autumn winter season 2026, over 97% of the looks were what is called straight size, so that's a UK size around 4 to 8, just over 2% were mid-size, a UK size of 10 to 16, and only 0.3% were a plus size, so that is a UK size 18. Last season it was 0.9%. So plus size representation has declined. The report also cites the growing use of weight loss drugs as a key part of the change compared to recent years. So what is happening in the fashion industry when it comes to body size inclusivity and are we seeing an impact on the clothing sizes available in the shops on our high streets? I'm joined now by Elizabeth Payton, fashion editor of the Financial Times and Gabrielle Davanascus, deputy editor at Drapes, a fashion business publication. Good to have you both

with us in the studio. Hi, good morning. Elizabeth, looking at the recent fashion weeks that have taken place in London, Paris and Milan, was the change in sizing of models noticeable? Absolutely. You know, I've spent over 15 years at fashion shows now. And the difference from, say, five years ago, when I'd say the body positivity movement was at its peak to now is incredibly stark. I think GLP-1s have played a major factor.

There's other factors here, too. There's the rise of conservatism, the anti-wokeback. clash, there's the prevalence of internet culture. Skinny talk is a huge thing. But there's no doubt that the fashion industry, which has always marginalised different sizes of bodies that don't necessarily fit with their brand image, have taken this opportunity to make models skinnier and skinnier than ever. You know, you quoted the Vogue business stats. It's great that Vogue is doing this report. It's a lot of hard work and kind of interesting that Vogue is the title that's taking on this role. But, you know, another one is that it's really only what, there was only

one model from LVMH and one model from caring, these are the big powerful groups that dominate the luxury industry at all. All those other stats come from smaller fringe brands. So I think it's really important to see that the most powerful names in fashion are some of the ones that are doing the least at this point. People will be listening, though, Elizabeth, and saying, well, models have always been really thin, worryingly thin sometimes. Luxury brands have always focused on size it.

Is there really a change here? I totally appreciate that that's how people feel. Equally, there was a movement for a period, I think, towards trying to be more inclusive, or at least look to be more inclusive. There's always been accusations of tokenism around this. But the fact that there's basically no diversity in terms of bodies at the moment is incredibly problematic. It's not the case everywhere. We've seen a huge uptick in older models, you know, and we've also seen a huge uptick in sort of broader representations of race. but you can be very skinny and tick both of those boxes.

And skinniness and body size is just one frontier that the fashion industry, particularly at the luxury end, is just not prepared to tackle at the moment. Gabrielle, you talk to high street fashion retailers. What are they telling you about the demand for plus sizes and how is that influencing their sizing decisions? Absolutely. So as far back as maybe two years ago,

some businesses have told us that they noticed a decline in demand for those larger sizes. So in turn, that stock would then go into discounting, which had eaten to profit margins. So they have told us that some are kind of changing the way they buy. So instead of buying 200 units of a size 20 dress, they're now buying 150 as an example. And some businesses are skewing towards buying in more of those so-called smaller sizes, so size 8, 10 and the like. Let me put to you a couple of messages in from our listeners.

Keita says the clothes in stores have changed so much over the past decade. as I'm a woman who is fairly flat-chested and have wide hips and broad shoulders. I've always struggled to find clothes that fit. I've now started to draft my own patterns. It uses the basic maths that we did at school. So not only will I get some lovely fitting clothes from this hobby, it is also beneficial for my brain.

Well, good on your kitter. And Jenny says, trying to be a size 6 to 8, I come away from the cells really depressed. The racks are full of over-ordered size 10 and up. Please bear a thought for us, small ladies. Interesting to get that thought from Jenny as well. Gabrielle, what do you think is behind these changes?

I mean, we've been talking, and I mentioned in the queue there, about weight loss drugs and how the demand in the UK is far outstripping what the NHS initially estimated. That is, according to research from the University College London published this year. They suggested that nearly one in 10 people in the UK have recently used a drug to support weight loss, or we're interested in using one in the near future. How much do you think that is impacting the size of clothesport?

Anecdotally, that is what we're hearing from retailers. So they're saying that consumers are quite openly, either coming into smaller businesses and saying, I've lost all this weight because of these weight lost drugs, what can I buy to fit me now? Or they're saying that, yes, so the rise has really increased. Research I've seen shows that households across the UK may be only between 4% to 7% of Great Britons have used these.

weight loss drugs. So it can be seen as quite a small proportion of households, but clearly the impact is still resonating across the industry. And how does that filter then into style, Elizabeth? Are we seeing a change in style? Definitely. The knock on impact of the sort of rising use of GLP ones is very obvious in the design of clothes. So both at the high end runway level, where the pants were incredibly skinny, there was a lot of cutaway skies. There's a very thin silhouette, sort of spray on tight, which is a move away from the o'clock. oversized trend that we've really seen in the last decade. But also something I've been hearing about sort of the more mass market brands is because

there's a lot of yo-yoing weight loss to do with GLP ones, they people often take some of that weight back on. They're moving away from a tailored trouser, for example, towards a drawstring trouser. And there's another reason for that. Obviously, profits are very, very tight at the moment for a lot of retailers. What do you think is more expensive to make? A tailored trouser or a drawstring trouser? And that yo-yoing is interesting because we don't know how this.

is going to play out long term, do we? I think that's a really important thing to recognise. Both Gabby and I in our reporting are hearing about these knock-on changes for businesses. It's clear that a lot of them are rethinking their approach to sizing inventory, to design. And as I touched on earlier, the models that they used to sell their clothes. But we are still in the relatively early stages of this. I think Bernstein analysts estimated about a billion dollars worth of sales pegged to GLP1 clothing. Resale, though, we were talking about is seeing a huge knock-on impact as well.

well, if you've lost 20 pounds, what are you going to do with all your clothes? You want to go buy a new, new wardrobe, then you're going to get rid of your old one. But yes, this is still early days. We've touched on the fact, I mean, I think more and more people will start using GLP ones. There is a positive side to GLP ones. A lot of women are speaking positively about their journeys on them, although they are still very tied up with privilege if you're buying them as opposed to being able to get them on the NHS. So I expect to see more of this. I don't know about you, Gabby. There are positives and negatives, I think, for the industry. So, positives are, you know, somebody has lost some weight. They're keen to show off, show this off, and they're keen to refresh their wardrobes, treat themselves to some new looks. But then the negative is if you are yo-yoing between sizes, you're not quite ready to make that investment yet. So what you could do is rely on more affordable kind of fast fashion brands in the meantime. And the second-hand market as well, as well as selling your old product, you will spend more money on those second hand resaleers to buy buy more kind of more affordable items. Is this happening, Gabrielle, in the men's sector as well?

It is indeed. So what we've had anecdotally as well, some men's where customers are not shy about telling retailers how they've lost their weight and they come in and they're quite proud. One Irish retailer was speaking to his kind of rule of thumb, he said, was to lose two men losing two sizes. Wow. That's... And it has... happens quickly as well. Remember supply chains and fashion actually take quite a long time. So actually this, unless you're sort of inditex or Zara and you have a very fast turnaround time, these are big changes for people to adopt in their in their supply chain and how they make clothes and design clothes. More messages coming in. Skinny jeans aren't going to come back, are they?

No. I think they are. I think they are. Get ready. But some people like skinny, you know. I'd like to say that there's a style gene for everybody and they're all out there. And this message says, I found that the measurements of. sizes have changed. I have size 16 clothes, which I had many years ago and find that they are smaller than a modern day size 16. This can be very misleading for women who are trying to control their weight. What do you make of fact? Absolutely. So the size variants in stores have always kind of differed, I think. If you go from store to store, the measurements will be different, and it is quite difficult. But it's also very difficult to establish that industry standard as well.

So I do feel for shoppersey, you can be one size and one business and another. And what about for women who don't want to go on weight lost dogs, who don't want to lose weight, they are simply happy with the way they look, they are a bigger person? What does this mean for them when they're going into shops and the selection is just not as much as they used to have? I mean, again, I think we're not at a place yet

where those women won't find what they want to buy. I think what retailers are doing are simply reassessing what sizes that they offer. I'd also like to point out that one of the major criticisms of the luxury industry is they have never catered to plus-size women. And so anybody moving into those big household name luxury brands has always said, if you're over a size 14, you've never been able to buy what you want. You're offered a handbag or a shoe instead.

So, you know, that actually hasn't changed. But for the, you know, in terms of the more mass market names, I think there will be things for people for the foreseeable. But behind the scenes, they're thinking fast about how they need to recalibrate with this wave of weight loss change that's coming. I think there is also a conceivable. who will always need certain sizes and businesses will be there to cater to them no matter what. I don't think those sizes will disappear from shops just yet.

But with this trend that there are smaller sizes emerging in the high streets, is there not a risk of a return of body shaming as well? I think it's already there. I don't think it's, I mean, I think that's where we are. And, you know, I've talked about the catwalks, but the red carpet, we're also seeing incredibly skinny celebrities. I've also touched on internet culture, but I just think that is important. there is a wave of influences telling you now how to lose weight in quite aggressive ways.

So, you know, while we're talking about the impact on the fashion industry of shrinking bodies, this is actually everywhere. And I think it's been a pendulum swing from the height of the body positivity movement not that long ago to where we are now. It's slightly sobering. Really good to get your thoughts. Thank you both for joining us, Elizabeth Patton, a fashion editor at the Financial Times, and Gabrielle Davanaskus, Deputy Editor at Drapers, which is a, fashion business publication. Good to have your thoughts on the programme. Well, that is that

from this edition of Women's Hour tomorrow, we'll be talking to the engineer, Laura Corcoran, about what led her to creating a device called the miscarriage cradle. And three Scottish hospitals are introducing the invention designed to help bring dignity and practical support to women experiencing miscarriage. Do join us tomorrow and thank you for your company. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. A group of men ran in with machetes. I'm Livy Haydock, and from BBC Sounds and BBC Radio 5 live, this is Gangster, the story of Georgie Pye.

The scene of the killing near a Chinese bookshop is being flooded with detectives. Welcome to the world of the triads. If the triads are coming out of you, you're done. Where loyalty is sworn in blood. Gangster, the story of Georgie Pye. Listen first on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids.

I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth.

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