Woman's Hour - 7/7 attacks, Writer Bolu Babalola, SEND

Episode Date: July 7, 2025

It’s been 20 years since the 7/7 attacks in London, which claimed the lives of 52 civilians and injured almost 800. Krupa Padhy talks to Gill Hicks, who was on the Piccadilly line Tube that morning and lost her legs in the blast, and nurse Kate Price, who was working in intensive care at St Thomas’ Hospital. They discuss their memories of that day and the aftermath, as well as the lasting bond they have formed.Ministers are facing calls to keep education plans for children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities. An EHCP is a legally binding document which ensures a child or young person with special or educational needs gets the right support from a local authority. In a letter to the Guardian newspaper, charities, campaigners and parents have said that without EHCPs in mainstream schools, "many thousands of children risk being denied vital provision, or losing access to education altogether". Krupa is joined by Branwyn Jeffries, the BBC's Education Editor, to explain what's been happening.Writer Bolu Babalola hit the bestseller lists with her debut collection of short stories, Love in Colour, which remixed ancient love stories for a new audience. Bolu joins Krupa to talk about her latest novel, Sweet Heat, a sexy romance about Kiki, whose stable life is thrown into disarray just as her first love Malakai comes back into her life. She explains she’s a romance connoisseur and discusses the timeless appeal of the love story.There have been some shake-ups in the way netball is played in the UK recently. New teams, new rules, and a new venue for the Netball Super League Grand Final. The BBC’s lead netball commentator Lindsey Chapman talks to Krupa about what happened in that final, and what impact the recent changes to the sport have had on matches.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Andrea Kidd

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Kripa Patti and you're listening to the Women's Hour podcast. Hello and thank you for being with us this morning. It is a date that is etched on the memory of our nation. Many of us will recall where we were on the 7th of July, 2005, when we heard the news of the London bombings and indeed how we felt in the days

and the months afterwards. We're going to start the program this hour with a conversation about a unique friendship that formed that day, a lifelong bond that formed that day, a lifelong bond that two women shared that emerged through the trauma between one injured and one healer. Twenty years on, they continue to be the closest of friends. Sometimes the most unforgettable friendships come about in the most unlikely of ways. And that is what we want to hear from you on.

Tell us about a special friendship that has come about in a surprising or unusual context. Sometimes it is these friendships that leave the strongest mark on us. How has a stranger become an unexpected friend? You can text the program. Our number is 84844. Texts will be charged

at your standard message rate. Over on social media you'll find us on the handle at BBC Women's Hour, that is on X and Instagram. And of course you can email us through our website or you can send us a WhatsApp audio voice note using the number 03 700 100 444. All of our terms and conditions can be found on our website. Also on the programme we'll be hearing from our correspondent on those calls for ministers not to cut children's education, health and care plans. EHCPs as we've discussed widely here on Woman's Hour are regarded as lifelines by many families of young people with special educational needs and disabilities seeking support from their local authority. We're going to try and get you some clarity as to what is

exactly going on. Plus she calls herself a lover of love. The author Balu Babalola on her new book Sweet Heat and an epic night for London Pulse as they were crowned the winners of the first Netball Super League. But we start with the 20 year anniversary of 7-7, the attack in London in which three bombs were set off on the underground and one on a bus killing 52 civilians and injuring almost 800 people. Jill Hicks was on the Piccadilly line tube train that morning. After the bomb,

she lost 75% of her blood and both her legs and was in such a bad way when she was taken to hospital that she was labelled one unknown estimated female. Nurse Kate Price was working in intensive care at St Thomas' Hospital that day and helped look after Jill in the ward. And they formed a bond and are meeting up today for the 20 year commemorations in the capital. They both joined me last week with Jill on a line from her home in Australia. I asked Jill what her memories were of the moment straight after the attack. The aftermath is perhaps the most interesting for me in terms of perhaps the most interesting for me in terms of just being so uncertain and unclear of what had happened and no idea it's unfathomable that this was you know a deliberate act and it was a bomb blast and and I've always tried to think of it in terms of there was no sound, there was no, you know,

there was no indicator of what was about to happen. It was literally the time it takes to draw a breath and the world just went completely dark. And it was a darkness that felt like a thick tar almost that my body was being held within. And although it felt like I was flying through the air at some incredible speed, I was also just being gently cradled until I reached the bottom of whatever the bottom was. When we think of London, when we think of commuters, sort of that beautiful etiquette of you don't speak

to anyone on the underground, you don't look at anyone on the underground. So those anonymous commuters became the first lifelines. And that is what I hold on to. When I think about the aftermath, I think about the cradling of the darkness holding my body and then literally hands holding on to each other and it was extraordinary. You describe it all so eloquently. It was an hour before the emergency services even reached you, Jill. And during that time, many people would have would have frozen in fear, not knowing what on earth is going on, yet you took initiative to stop that extreme flow of blood. Just explain that to us. So out of character for me, I had a scarf

on that day and luckily it was a piece of clothing that was still on my body and I was able to tie tourniquets around the tops of my legs. You know, I often talk about myself in the third person if ever I'm describing this because I am still 20 years on in absolute awe of our ability to respond in such a way. If you had said to me the day before, Jill, this is what's gonna happen. This is what you're gonna do. I would have absolutely categorically said, there's no way I could do that.

But I think we are amazing when we're pushed into a corner. I felt that I had no other option. I think we are amazing when we're pushed into a corner. I felt that I had no other option. I wanted to survive, I wanted to live. And so if that meant having presence enough to tie tornakees, then that's what I did. And I remember being very still and just staring at my watch face. And I would never have been able to tell you what the time was,

but it helped me focus on other things other than what was happening in the carriage. That's so powerful hearing you say that. I wanted to survive. I wanted to live. And part of that journey was you then coming into the emergency services at St. Thomas' Hospital. I understand you know the names of all St Thomas's hospital. I understand you know the names of all the people who found you and took you there and you've stayed in touch.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, how do you thank people? You know, that was my absolute quest afterwards of finding every single person that touched my body that gave their all and looking at them and just saying thank you and then finding a way to physically say thank you to be able to live a life of absolute gratitude and honor of everything they did that morning that they didn't just save my life that day, they have saved my life every single day since. Let's bring you into our conversation now, Kate, because you are one of those medical professionals in those early hours, in those early days. Very little was known about Jill at that time. She was known as patient one, unknown, because of the severity of her

condition. Can you just outline what you recall from those first moments interacting with Jill and seeing her condition? That bit is a complete blur for me. When she arrived onto the unit at St Thomas's, we were aware that she had had a couple of cardiac arrests outside of the hospital and we knew she was in theatre having surgery. We just knew that our role was to essentially bring all her vital signs up into normal range so that we could really assess the impact of her injuries and then also to, by the police time, to establish her identity because there was nothing for us to really go on and also

locate her next of kin as well. So we just remember just like it was just all hands on deck in those first immediate moments. Yet all whilst not knowing what exactly had happened. That must have been very confusing for you. You yourself must have felt quite vulnerable. Yeah, I suppose for me, and I always feel a little bit of an imposter in this situation, was that I did feel very safe. I was very secure in the safety of my hospital. But by the time Jill came to us, it had been established that it had been an attack.

Like before that, early on in the morning early in the shift I remember Stuart the charge nurse coming up to me and saying we're on red alert something's happened we don't know what at that initial stage it was maybe it's a power surge so by the time Jill came we did have an appreciation of actually what had happened so at that, it was a situation that none of us had ever been in before. And so we were, we were all very much learning on that as well. And I remember the doctors going into this whole, okay, so this is, this is what happens when there is a bomb blast. This is, these are the injuries, this is the

impact, this is what we need to be looking out for. You talked about monitoring Jill's vital signs but you also had the role of washing her, washing those injuries. Why was that so important? So I didn't actually manage to achieve that in that shift but it was something that I really wanted to do. It's such a clinical environment like bath theatres, there's no other environment that is so dehumanizing in a medical situation and I just desperately wanted to give her that to clean her so if we did locate the family they could come and they wouldn't see how it was when she'd first arrived but what was happening was that

every time things started to stabilize people left the bed space I would type up notes I would do all my observations, I would type up notes, I would do all my observations and I would fill the bowl up with water and I'd put it on the end of the bed space and I'd look up and then she'd start deteriorating again and then it was all hands on deck and I don't know how many times I filled that bowl of water up and just didn't manage to do that and I think, I'm pretty sure the first thing I handed over to the night shift to David and Jamie was I haven't managed to wash her I'm really sorry I haven't managed to

wash her and they just looked at me of course like I had three heads because they were looking this day that we'd had sorry Jill. Jill how do you feel hearing Kate talk about the importance of you not feeling dehumanized because that's quite striking to hear. I know Kate very well now and so I think that that's very typical and I feel so fortunate that this is why I am who I am today. These are the hands of the people that cared for me. To wash somebody, that's not bringing me back from life or death. That's saying I'm delivering you

to whatever your next situation's going to be, whether that is passing away, whether that is surviving but being with your family, I will give you the best that I can give you and that dignity. And I absolutely attribute those sorts of actions to why I'm even the person I am today. What do you remember about waking up?

That I felt incredibly loved. My mother passed away when I was 18, and I have never felt that sense of unconditional love since until I was there in hospital and that's how I felt. And was Kate there? Well not when I initially opened my eyes so I missed her by a narrow margin which I'm forever apologetic about and I should have known, and I could have just closed my eyes again and just... But it's intense. It's a bond and a deep emotion that stays with you forever. Firstly, I felt safe, and that's all that matters. If I had died in that situation, I would have died feeling safe and loved, and that's extraordinary.

Kate, so you missed that moment by a few minutes? Yeah, I have a new theory about that. I've been reflecting on it this week. And so one of the first lessons you learn in intensive care is because it's so dehumanizing, the importance of touch and when you're approaching the bed space of holding a hand, placing your hand on someone's arm and introducing yourself and then explaining what you're doing because there's loads of noises even though people are sedated, there's still a lot going on. I did not want to go on my break. I had so much adrenaline and so much to do and I needed to wash her that I got forced to go on my break and my theory now is

that Jill sensed that I was no longer there and like a child she's like where's Kate where's my nurse so I I now can find it in my heart Jill to forgive you for it's okay I'm okay with it now. But what I'm hearing here, and I've just been speaking to you for a few minutes now, is this beautiful bond that has come out of something so traumatic. And I know Jill, you were saying that you've kept in touch with many people, or at least you learnt the names of so many people. This friendship, this relationship in particular, how has it grown from strength to strength? What I think is really important is that events on July 7 isn't what defines our friendship

and that I've gotten to know Kate and her family and we now have 20 years of experiences with each other that is, it's a forever bond, it's for life. It makes you emotional. I just, I would give anything for that day not to have happened. I wasn't even supposed to be working on E-Swing 1, I was moved up to E-Swing 2 because the skill mix was very junior and I harrumped my way upstairs, but I feel so fortunate and so lucky to be one of the people that has the privilege of knowing Jill and seeing what she has made of her life from that.

In the work that I do now, I'm very much about, like, if you focus on the thing in front of you and think about the ripple effects of that interaction and that good moment that you can give someone. To hear how much that is actually valued in a life-long lasting way is A, really validating, but really quite wild. Yeah. Let's pick up on that. Let's talk about your healing journeys because they've been unique in their own ways. For you, Jill, part of that was essentially going to see the legs that you lost in the attack. Why was it important to you to go through that? that. So I first inquired about the legs when the forensic team via the police brought back my briefcase and some of the things that I had with me that morning they'd found in the in the carriage and so that then led me to ask the question did you find my limbs and they sort of went very quiet. This is the police team.

And they said, actually, we have. And they then handed over to the hospital team who said, we've all been trying to work out how we approach this subject with you, because how do we tell you that we have your legs, we have them here? And they were in the morgue. Unexpectedly for them, I just sat up in my bed and just said, can I go and see them? And no one expected me to ask that. And I just felt I couldn't believe that they'd been found. I couldn't believe that they were there in the hospital. And I just wanted to say goodbye and to see them one last time. And I remember they took me down to the sort of the family room where you might go and say goodbye to a loved one. And out was presented my feet first and they were on a cushion and they were absolutely

perfect so all the toenails were all painted that were just perfect as I remembered them and then the legs came out separately and they were so good but I meant managed to touch each of the toes and and thank my feet for everything they'd given me up to that point and and it was very important I think to have that that goodbye moment because I could. but I could sort of comprehend that I won't recover. My legs will not grow back. And this was a moment where I had to say goodbye. Was there any anger? Not initially. I was euphoric that I was even alive. I couldn't believe it. And that I was still Jill in my mind. And that I was still me.

It was sort of later on, sort of years later, I think that post-traumatic stress just sort of starts to settle in. But I've learnt to understand that I don't feel hatred or bitterness. I do feel angry, but I use that as my motivator to keep getting up every day, to keep doing things that make a difference. I'm never complacent I'm always active because the anger to make a difference is still there. You are quite a force Jill. Kate for you a big moment was the birth of your son. Yes so I have two boys and my eldest Senan was nine days late and born on July 7th at St Thomas's, 10 years ago. What was going through your mind when you put all the dots together?

The date, the birth of this beautiful child, a new beginning? Yeah, so I knew Jill was over to commemorate 10 years and we'd been in touch and I was like, yeah, I'm heavily pregnant, but wherever you are you are just let me know I'm going to come he's due on the 28th so by then I'll be alright I'll be good you know somewhere I'll get I'll get to you and then the day went past still not here still coming and then it got to like the 6th and I knew things were happening obviously on on the 7th and there was a gathering that was arranged and I was just like I am still

coming and then that morning on the 7th my waters broke and I was a gathering that was arranged and I was just like, I am still coming. And then that morning on the 7th, my water's broke and I was just like, oh. And then it was just a bit later on that I was like, oh, we better let Jill know what happened because I was supposed to go. Were you worried about telling Jill because of the date? No, I think I was just quite, I guess there was no worry. It was just literally like how on earth did that happen?

Jill, how did that feel for you hearing that news? Incredible, but also I got to have the first hold outside of the family. So I'm very excited about that. You yourself went on to become a mother as well in the aftermath. I have, yes. I have girls now 12. And how much does she know about what you've gone through? Everything. She's come to everything since she was a baby in a capsule. So all the community projects, every talk I've given, she's well up on world events

and the importance of being the very best human you can ever possibly be. Jill, often when an individual faces a trauma like you have, gone through what you have, there is the person you are before the event and the person after. How has your essence fundamentally changed? So, I think the threads of me are exactly the same, which I'm thrilled about. I'll frame it this way, I feel incredibly lonely in the world because I've been given insight and a lived experience that has shown me just how incredible human beings can be to each other. And knowing that is a very frustrating place to live because every time I see something unfold that isn't to the best of our ability, it infuriates me in a way that it is, it's very lonely because I'm here by people like Kate who are symbolic of the best of us and I'm

here by all of those anonymous commuters in the moments after a bomb blast that held onto each other's hands. Yeah, that's who I know us to be. So I will make it my life's work to continuously be the reminder and the messenger of that. Jill, you've since moved back to Australia. You are heading over to the UK for those 7-7 commemorations. No doubt this is going to stir up a lot of emotions for you. It is. I don't know why I'm doing this to myself, but it's even bigger with the framing of doing a performance on the 9th of July.

It's marking 20 years. It's a milestone. And of course, a chance for you both to reunite. I may not let her go, so... I can already feel what the hug is going to feel like. And I just... I can't wait for that. I can't wait for you to meet my boys and my partner. I just can't wait for you to be back in that bit of my life.

I'm so excited to Incredible women there Kate price and Jill Hicks and you will be taking to the stage at London's Wilton Hall with her new show still alive and kicking on the 9th of July and it's all about her experience of Survival and so many of you. Thank you have been getting in touch on the subjects of friendships that have come about in unusual ways. Let me squeeze in a couple here. This one says, I met my wonderful friend Donna whilst we were both undergoing treatment for breast cancer. We connected over chemo. We dragged each other through so many of life's ups and downs. Sadly, Donna passed away, but knowing her at a crucial time makes our friendship live on and this message says

39 years ago on a skiing holiday We met a couple in Chamonix since then they have become the most precious and wonderful friends You could ask for Christine has been there for us when my twin sister was killed in a parachuting accident And when my husband was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumour she dropped everything and came up to Scotland where we live and did everything from going to the hospital, buying pajamas, helping me with text messages as I'm visually impaired and just being there. They've embraced me and my children in the warmth of their family. Words will never be enough to thank them. Thank you for your messages, keep them coming in 84844. I will try and

read a few more as the programme goes on. Next to a story that is making headlines this morning, ministers are facing calls to not cut education plans for children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities. An EHCP is a legally binding document which ensures a child or young person with special or educational needs gets the right support from their local authority. In a letter to the Guardian newspaper, charities, campaigners and parents have said that without EHCPs in mainstream schools, many thousands of children risk being denied vital provision or losing access to education altogether. The government says

it inherited the system left on its knees. It says speaking on the BBC's Sunday with Laura Kunzberg program, Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson repeatedly refused to rule out EHCPs as part of reforms due to be published in October. It is a subject we've been following on Woman's Hour and I'm joined now by Branwyn Jeffries, the BBC's education correspondent. Branwyn, over 100 people signed that letter in The Guardian. Tell us about those who signed it and more about what they're saying. Well, the concern from campaigners, from parents' groups, from charities is about the options that the government may be considering to try and manage the costs

of special educational needs and disabilities in England. As you said, an EHCP gives a child or a young adult the legal right to have their needs met as specified. And what we've seen is a huge increase over the last decade since they were introduced in the number of children qualifying last year, last week. The figures showed that there'd been an 11% increase year on year, bringing the total number to 638,000. Now, each one of those children or young people has the right to have specific needs met, and that has seen the costs going up hugely. Currently, local authorities are sitting on deficits, being held off their books of more

than £3 billion, and that is the challenge that the government is grappling with. You've given us a sense of those numbers there, the fact that the rise in the number of these EHCP applications has gone to over 600,000. What is the reason behind this rise? What do you understand about it? It's very complex and probably has many factors within it. Academics have looked at it to try and make sense of it and it is quite hard to untangle. There may be a number of different factors involved. One is better diagnosis of certain conditions, particularly autism in girls who often have traditionally masked it better and had lower rates of diagnosis. So there's been an increase there. There's been an increase

in social, emotional, mental health problems. We know that young people, teenagers, are facing greater challenges to their mental health from social media, from what they went through during COVID. There are a huge number of pressures and there has been a rise in the proportion of EHCPs that are related to that. But the rise is beyond a level which people have really been able to make sense of just looking at the various reasons for which a child might be awarded an EHCP. And one of the things that parents certainly say is they battle for many, many years sometimes to get the needs recognised and met. That may mean that children are being helped later when the problems are more complicated,

more difficult to really help and support a child with rather than early intervention, which is where the government is pushing to with its separate announcement today around family hubs and increasing the number of family hubs across England. What do you mean by family hubs exactly? So people will remember the Sure Start program which was started under the last Labour government which ended up with 3,000 centres open to parents to offer them a wide range of parenting support and advice in their local area. That was largely scrapped as a result of the austerity that followed the 2008 banking crisis. And then

some family hubs were reintroduced under the last government offering something similar. What's being announced today is a thousand family hubs with a focus more firmly on naught to five, so those really crucial developmental early years, and with a promise that there will be someone who's qualified in special educational needs sitting within them. Now that matters because we have a lot of evidence that the Sure Start programme had a huge impact in a variety of ways on children's academic attainment, how often they went to hospital, improved school attendance and it reduced the number of children who were seeking special educational need support later

because they were getting more support earlier on. So it needs to be seen as part of the government preparing its way for the no doubt controversial centre reforms this autumn. Yes I was going to say the family pubs will likely feature in the government plans to publish that white paper in autumn. What more can we expect from that? Certainly there's going to have to be something around managing the costs for local authorities. At the moment they are holding around 3.3 billion pounds and

it's rising every year of deficits off their books in a very strange arrangement started under the last government which had been extended for one more year. We did see in the spending review an announcement of some additional funding for transitional support for change. Now that means that the government wants to shift more intervention earlier and wants to have more inclusion in mainstream schools. That will concern schools around the pressures on their budgets. Will there be enough money for them to get sufficient support? Many, many head teachers andteachers unions say that special educational needs is one of the things that is pushing their budgets to the brink currently and also it's likely to provoke both protest and concern amongst parents unless they can

see that that early support is adequate and it is in place and it's in place when their child needs it. Let me bring you this response we've had from a Department of Education spokesperson. They said, inaccurate to suggest that children, families and schools might experience any loss of funding or support. It goes on, this government is actively working with parents and experts on the solutions including more early intervention as Brandon's been saying there to prevent needs from escalating and at 740 million pounds to encourage councils to create more specialist places in mainstream schools. And Brandon Brammy, we've also heard from the Education Secretary on the Laura Koonsberg programme yesterday as well. That's right and what will have struck many people is that she refused

to take any options off the table, including the one that families and campaigners fear most, which is that the whole education health care plan system would be scrapped and replaced with something with much tighter eligibility, leaving more families trying to find support in a different way. One of the things that it's worth pointing to in terms of the rising costs is that while a lot of the money has gone into additional support in special schools, quite a lot of that has been in the independent sector where the costs are typically two to three times higher than in the state sector in terms of the amount of funding and also around half of the EHCPs, almost half, are for children who are in mainstream schools. So without that guarantee of the legal right,

which an EHCP confers, parents will be worried that promises are one thing but delivery is another. Just before I let you go, I do want to squeeze in one very quick question. There will be people listening, parents, families, guardians listening, who were saying, I'm really concerned about this, it's already so tough to get that EHCP, they might have an application in process, they might be waiting on an outcome, but we know it's a really, really stressful situation for parents. What do you say to parents who are extremely worried right now, and or rather how worried should they be? It's very it's very hard to know. I mean most parents you know worry primarily about their

own child and their own child's needs and that battle to get support. We know that fewer than half the plans that are applied for are given within the 20-week deadline. So trying to press local authorities to stick with that 20-week deadline so that there's a speedy response. We also know that many cases end up going to tribunal where by and large the families tend to be successful. That's enormously stressful for people and also costly. There is some evidence to suggest that EHCPs are given slightly more to more affluent families and that may be because they have the resources and the time and the money to get the additional reports

or support or legal advice that they need to battle through the system. If there's one thing that could be changed about the system I think most families would want to see that feeling of having to absolutely fight at every single step for something around that to be addressed and to be diminished in whatever replaces the current system now. Franwyn Jefferies, the BBC's education correspondent, very good to have you on and I'm sure we'll get a response to this and we'll keep covering this very important story as we have done on the programme. It's one of our favourite times of the year, it is Listener Week. It begins in a few weeks time and it's all

about you and what you want to hear in the program. So this is our request for you to get texting and emailing with your ideas. Maybe you have a powerful personal story or an unusual hobby that you've been dying to share or a career, dating or science question that you'd love to put to an expert or maybe you'd like to nominate the inspiring story of someone in your family or your community. Nothing is off limits, so do get in touch with us. The way you can do that is on 84844, that is our text number, or on social media at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website as well. I want to squeeze in another message that I've had in on the subject of friendships

and how they've come about in unusual ways. Thank you to all of you who have been getting in touch. This message said, I made a friend for life with Mary in the late 1990s when I was going through very difficult circumstances at work and through the menopause. At this point I met Mary who worked as a union rep. She invited me to her home for Sunday lunch and after sharing a bottle of wine and the story of our lives our friendship began. She helped me to get back into my beloved job by intervening with HR for me. We still see each other and talk on the phone and she

is one of my precious friends. Thank you Elaine for sending in your messages and to the rest of you, the many of you who have been getting in touch and I'll try and read a few more throughout the rest of the program but that theme of love let's carry on with that theme of love with my next guest Balu Babalola. Balu hits the bestseller list with her debut Love in Colour, a collection of short stories that remixed ancient love stories from West Africa, Greece and the Middle East for a new audience, always with a focus on female characters. This was followed by her first novel, Honey and Spice, a campus set romance about lovers Kiki and Malachi, and the lovers return in her latest novel, Sweet Heat.

It's a smart and sexy love story where Kiki, a British Nigerian woman, finds that her successful career and her relationship with her very reliable boyfriend are falling apart. Just as her first love, Maliki comes back into her life. We're going to hear a bit of that as well. They say there are certain dramatic life-changing or ending occurrences that a person can recognise are about to happen immediately before they happen. I don't know if they are a nebulous council of sages through the ages, psychologists or a Nigerian matriarch who swears she had a dream but I'm inclined to believe it. We are spiritual, instinctual beings, primal and we can feel and sense and guess at an

altering of a destiny in the moments before it unfolds. A car crash for instance, a flick of the wrist, vision askew, your heart jumps into your mouth before your brain can recognize what is happening. There's a split second before the fear sets in and it feels worse than the fear itself. The anticipation, the cold tang of pre-catastrophe on the tongue, the heady notes of dread tickling the back of your throat that makes you want to hurl or laugh or scream or dream of anything anything but this happening. Like the moment your heart breaks.

Thank you, Balu. Thank you. And you're very welcome to Women's Hour. I'm so excited to be here. We're excited to have you here as well. Let's talk about Kiki at the beginning of the novel. She's wondering, as so many women do at a certain stage in their life about her career,

her relationship, whether it's lacking that spark. Tell us about Kiki. Oh I love Kiki. Kiki is a sharp tongue, confident young woman but she like all of us has insecurities. She's very witty, she knows what she wants and so at this stage of her life in the mid-20s she's very shaken by the fact that for the first time she doesn't really know what she wants or where she's going and she's battling these insecurities. And for me, it was really interesting to write a character who was confident, but also alongside that confidence, had feelings of self-doubt and just kind of thrown by what she wants in life and what she doesn't want in life. Often there are a set of rules by which we think we have to follow.

And Kiki feels like she's totally thrown off that path when Malachi comes back into her life. Yes, Malachi was her college sweetheart, a university sweetheart, and they were together for five lovely years. And it was all good until it wasn't. And now that she's healed and she's, you know, she set her life back on track, he's come back and kind of disrupted

her carefully laid plans. And I think that it's exploring what it means to kind of discard what you thought you knew and make space for something new or having the grace to explore something that you experienced in the past. On the subject of love, Kiki is supported by a very close-knit of friends. Why was it important for you to feature those relationships as well?

For me, friendship is romance. Friendship, I think, speaks to romance and I think that how we show up in our romantic lives is often a reflection of how we are supported in our friendship groups. I feel like friendship kind of exposes so many layers of who we are. And for a lot of us, especially women, is how we come to first know love outside of our families. And so for me, Sweet Heat has always been,

and Honey and Spice has always been three love stories, which is, of course, Malachi and Kiki, Kiki and herself and Kiki with her friends, but namely Amina. I think there's something so beautiful about female friendship that I love to explore in all my stories. And when Kiki is questioning aspects of her life, she's really asking what is she worthy of? Yes. Does she want to compromise? And that's an important lesson for women to have, isn't it?

Yeah, I think so. And it was really important for me to have kind of not a romantic antagonist, but kind of the opposite love interest and not be a terrible guy. There's nothing wrong with Bakari. He has a great job. He's very rich. And he likes her enough. But she asked has to ask herself, what does she really want in life? Does she just want enough? Is enough good enough? Or does she want something expansive, something full,

something that can potentially overwhelm her, but the result is something just so beautiful and being understood on such an intimate level. And she has to kind of ask herself, is it enough to just have a satisfactory love story? Or does she want something big and bold and beautiful? I recently watched Balu forever on Netflix. I don't know if you've seen that.

It's directed by Mara Brock Akil. For those who haven't seen it, it's the love story of two black college students, Keisha and Justin. And they're really hoping quite simply, I think simply is the key word here, that their love will last forever. It did very well on Netflix and I'm wondering just looking at the tremendous response it's had for example, that's just one example of a growing portfolio of fresh stories I'd call it, on black love, fresh by means of not having trauma at the centre of it. Very simple. What do you make of the changing climate on that on that front? I mean, I love that and I love forever.

I think it's important for us to write our stories where pain is not at the centre of it. And don't get me wrong, I write about life as well. So pain is part of it. You know, this book tackles grief, it tackles insecurities, it tackles racism, because these are part of life, but it's not that it's not the totality of life. And that's not a totality of black life. So much joy and peace and love happens around that despite that. And I think it's important for us to see that represented, whether it's in the book or on the page or on screen, because that is life. We're not the totality of our pain and we thrive despite it. Let's talk about your love for love.

Rooted in the love your parents have for one another. Yes. In many ways, I grew up with childhood sweethearts. They met where they were 11 and 12 and they started going out when they were 18 and they've been best friends ever since and I grew up as you know Seeing that love and experiencing that love but not only that how that love supported me as a writer And so I have this view of almost on jaded view of love and I think that's very precious to me So even when I was dating as a young person

I felt like my standards were very very high because of what I saw in my parents and the respects that I saw my father treat my mother with. So yeah, I feel very lucky. It's beautiful. Yeah, I feel very lucky to have seen that. That's really beautiful. And you, I mean, your mum used to love reading as well, leaving romantic novels by the bedside table. By the bedside table. I used to steal Mills and Boone books off her bookshelf. Definitely too young to have read those, but she's always been a romantic. And so I used to watch her love stories with her.

I used to watch like the rom-coms with her and that kind of really shaped my taste really, what I love. And you knew that writing was for you from a very young age. As I understand it, you used to give out copies of your books to your friends in the school playground? Yeah, so, yeah, I remember distinctly in year eight, I used to write my love stories on the big family computer in Comic Sans in size 16, and they were called things like Summer Lovin' with an N.

And yeah, I remember my friends saying, I should bring him in one day, and then I did. And then apparently people were into them. And then it became a thing where I just give the next kind of installments by week by week. And yeah, and then I realized, oh, I have an audience. You actually wanna read what I write. And that was a revelation to me.

So it was mills and boons in the early days, stolen by your mom's bedside table, from your mom's bedside table. But what went on to inspire you? Which kind of writing, which authors? Okay, so I loved Metcabber, Louise Renison, those YA authors. But then I remember when I was 13, 12 or 13, I depleted the school library of his books and the librarian put this chunky, chunky edition of Pride and Prejudice in my hands and I just thought there's no way I'm going to get through this all like like it. This is ancient. But I just remember reading the first line and just being in it and

being fascinated by the fact that I found it so funny and I understood what's going on and the characters jumped out of me and I think that without knowing it so funny and I understood what's going on and the characters jumped out of me. And I think that without knowing it was beginning to shape my idea of what a romantic novel can be because it's a romantic novel, but it also says so much about society, ourselves, you know, being a confident woman, but also having flaws. And I found it really relatable with her like family of women and women who are not afraid to speak their minds. I'm from a family of women. Nigerian families are very similar to that. So yeah, I just found it so fascinating the kind of the power of love and how it transcends time and how it related to me, a 14

year old black girl in East London from Georgia and England. I just thought it was incredible. Do you think the romance genre deserves more credit, especially in the climate we live in with bad news in so many places? Absolutely. I think first of all there's so much joy to be found in romance but I also think that romance talks about so many things. So much of life interacts with romance in these novels. Grief, chronic pain, job loss, so many things that happen in life. And I think that explores it through the prism of love. So it's actually very expansive, but it also shows how love can be a balm through despite the darkness that happens in life.

And I think that's beautiful. I like that. You've just got engaged yourself. I did. Wonderful news. Thank you so much. Congratulations. Planning your own big fat lavish Nigerian wedding? Yes, planning two big fat Nigerian wedding and a London wedding too.

Sounds very exciting. I can't let you go without mentioning that you wrote a dissertation on Beyonce's Lemonade. Yes, I did. Have you continued to analyze her work? I wish I did because the Calvo Carter album was incredible, but I have been doing it in my own way. Yeah, she really informed so much of how I approach my artistry because I think she's very meticulous and very intentional with how she approaches things and how she uses her art to

redefine what a black woman is to her and to kind of reassert her power as a black woman, as a black southern woman. I find that just incredibly inspirational. I've loved having you on. Thank you so much for joining us here on Women's Out with Zabolo Babalola and her new book Sweet Heat is out now. Thank you. And we've also had thanks via messages to the extraordinary friends, Jill and Kate.

This message says, your story this morning was so moving, but also life affirming. Let me read you one more that has come in. Seven years ago, a woman reached out to me whilst fleeing domestic violence. I was the ex-partner of her abuser. Our shared experiences forged a deep friendship, provided us with clarity that the abuse was and is real and that has been a cornerstone of our healing. Please do keep your messages coming in. It was a big night for Netball fans last night. London

Pulse were crowned the champions of the netball super league grand final after a thrilling 53-45 match. It follows the relaunch of the netball super league earlier this year which included new teams, new rules and a new venue for last night's final. Here to break it all down for us is the BBC's lead netball pundit Lindsay Chapman who was commentating at the match. Good to break it all down for us is the BBC's lead netball pundit Lindsay Chapman who was commentating at the match. Good to have you with us. This was the first time that the grand final was held at London's O2. Looking at the highlights, that space was buzzing. What was it like last night? Oh hi, it's lovely to be on. It was absolutely incredible last night. It really

was pushing 10,000 fans at the O2 arena in London and a netball match is a special thing anyway. Watching live netball is unbelievable. It's such a fast game, you know, playing at the elite level and I think lots of women, lots of people in general, but lots of women have a connection to this sport. But when you watch the elites in this country play, it is sensational. It's so fast. You know, there's a goal every sort of 30 seconds or less. And with those 10,000 fans, don't forget this is a stadium, so it's got a roof on as well.

The noise in there as the commentator. You're trying to hear yourself think, you know, never mind put words to what you're seeing, but the atmosphere just scoops you up and takes you along it was absolutely brilliant. How important was it or rather what did it mean to the sport to actually have the final there at the London O2? I mean this is huge you know this is absolutely huge for the sport I mean I remember when I was watching as a much younger person I was sort of watching England play in local sports centres near me, you know, with crowds of very few people. And where we are now and the sort of expansion of this sport in this country is next level really, and it's where we want to see the

sport going. It is so brilliant as a spectator sport, as I've said, but also just, you know, the sort of the nature of what the sport can do and where it can reach and the audiences that it can bring, I think, you know, pretty unique really in terms of women's sport. So to see the trajectory of where it's going and where it can continue to go is something else. And I think that the O2 is a real milestone for the sport. You know, in this new year, 2025, England netball, the netball super league has taken this brave step moving towards professionalization.

That's where we want to go. You know, that's what you want young women, young athletes to aspire to. So to then say you would be playing your grand final at one of the most iconic venues in this country is where we want the sport to be. Let's talk about the game.

London Pulse, they haven't been in the Grand Final for the past two years, whereas Loughborough won the last two years, so how did they manage to knock them off that top spot? You know your stats, great stuff. Yes, you're right. So Loughborough Lightning are the sort of reigning champions, they were double champions coming into this. They wanted to go for the three-peat back to back to back. It's never been done in netball history before because it's so difficult to get into one of those finals. But London Pulse, they're a team that came into being in 2019. They've been building and building

and building. They have got a team of dynamic young players who have grown up essentially with that club. And they now many of them play in the England set up as well. So I would say that London Pulse have one of the best defensive units in the world and that includes Australia who are, you know, at the moment that the sort of league leaders when it comes to netball. But London Pulse have been growing through this season. Their sort of maturity has really come through as well. So yes, they're young athletes, but they're working in the international setup, along with the domestic setup. And everything has been coming together for them. And you can see that in their socials as well. You know, this isn't just an on-court thing. It's a very accessible sport. There's lots going on on the socials.

And they just have a lot of fun together. And I think what they've done is that they've sort of brought that friendship and that trust to the court this year. And my goodness me, were they hungry? They did not have it all their way. Loughborough Lightning do not go away. They're a dogged team.

They know how to win finals. So they came back into it. You sort of thought, oh yeah, Pools have got this. And they've got the sort of London Cow the home crowd but then Loughborough Lightning were like nah nah nah we're gonna have our say as well so it went either way which is a brilliant game to commentate. Lindsay there were changes made recently to the game can you just explain what's changed and why they were brought in? Yeah sure so as I said there's been this move towards professionalisation so sort of looking at the sport and saying, actually, this is the aspiration and this is where we want it to be.

You know, we want this league to be the best league in the world. So we've had some rule changes come in this year. If you know the standard game of netball, you know that when you shoot a goal, it's worth one. Well, we've brought in something called the Super Shot already played out in Australia. Sounds terrifying. We'll get together and give it a go. But basically there's an area at the outer rim of the shooting circle and in the last five minutes of each quarter if a shooter shoots a long bomb that is worth two points and what that does is

it allows teams to stay in the game for longer. So what happened in the final was that London Pulse sort of went ahead in that first quarter, but then Loughborough Lightning used this super shot really, really well and forced their way back into the game. There are no draws now either, so we play to a result, which again, for a commentator, you've got to keep your eyes on all the time. It's been into extra time a number of times, which is just brilliant for fans. You know, you're sort of right in it until the very end. There's rolling substitutions, so things are happening quite quickly. But I think two of the biggest changes

are having these arena games. So, you know, giving the space to the fans and saying, this is a spectacle to come and watch, come and be part of this. And then every single game this season as well has been broadcast. And that's so different if you're a fan of a club because you can follow the story of the season and you become invested in your

club and in your players. So for me that has been a huge and very important change. It is the BBC's Women's Summer of Sport, the campaign is looking at names that will be made and it's hoping to put a spotlight on female athletes. Were there any names made last night? Oh absolutely, there are names that believe you me are going to become household names in this sport and I think probably the biggest one, the player of the match yesterday, is a player called Fumi Fudoju. Now she is a goal defence but what she does on the court, you know, there are certain moves that I have never seen

before. She's so athletic, she has an athletics background and she's sort of flying all over the place putting in these interceptions, taking these balls that are, you know, pretty much unreadable and it is, it's just special to watch. She's a special player. So Fumi Fudoju is one. I love watching Alicia Scholes who is the daughter of Paul Scholes. She plays wing attack for London Pulse, and she is so fast, she's so dynamic, getting that ball through to the shooting circle. And also I mentioned to Loughborough Lightning,

they've got some more experienced players, but the likes of Nat Panagari and Beth Cogden, they've played World Cups. Beth Cogden has a gold medal from the Commonwealth Games back in 2018. So this sport is on the rise, these women are on the rise and they are sensational to watch. Lindsay Chapman thank you for keeping up the energy for us if you'd like to see the highlights reel of that game it's over at BBC

Sports Online you can catch up with all of the latest there. More messages coming in on the ways in which you've come about a strong friendship, the unusual context that have led to a beautiful friendship. This message says, since I was teaching in Uganda in the early 1970s I've been close friends with Deborah whose family welcomed me into their home and so I'll call when the British teachers left because of Idi Amin's actions. I remained and I've been friends with this lovely family ever since. Our personal histories are so different as Deborah is a subsistence farmer and I grew up with opportunities in England but the differences didn't and don't matter as we are firm friends to this

day. Anne writes, I met my friend Carol in hospital when we were both having our mastectomies. Bear with me, it's just dropped down there we go. By chance we discovered that we lived only a few miles from one another. In the following 22 years until she died we supported each other through ups and downs because we've shared the same challenges. A profound experience. I miss her very much. Thank you for your message and that is it from today's Woman's Hour. There's plenty more tomorrow. In fact we'll have the creator and comedian Fats Timber with us all about her new book. Do join us then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Do join us again next time.

I'm David Runciman and from BBC Radio 4, this is Postwar. From the cradle to the grave, they said. 80 years on, we're telling the story of the 1945 election and the creation of post-war Britain. There must be a revolution in our way of living. This is the Britain that many of us grew up in and which still shapes an idea of who we think we are. Even Winston Churchill thrown it. Alright, he may have won the war but he is going to win the peace.

Post-war with me, David Runtsman. Listen on BBC Sounds. Can we have the Britain we desire?