Woman's Hour - A farewell to Jane Garvey, Women on the moon, Ageing well

Episode Date: January 2, 2021

Holly Ridings is the first woman to be Nasa's chief flight director and is in charge of the Artemis programme - named after Apollo's twin sister - which will land the first woman and next man on the Moon by 2024. She tells us about the challenges involved with space travel and what makes a good astronaut. More and more of us are living longer - so how can we do it better? Consultant Geriatrician Dr Lucy Pollock, CEO of the Centre for Ageing Better Anna Dixon, and Dr Niharika Duggal from the University of Birmingham explain how to approach independence, exercise, and even driving as we get older.As The Archers celebrates 70 years, we look at how farming - the backdrop of the radio drama - has changed for women since it's been on air. Felicity Finch, who plays Ruth Archer, meets Mary Quicke - one of the real life inspirations behind the storylines.What makes the night sky so magical? We speak to Karine Polwart, a folk singer whose new work takes inspiration from the stars she watched as a child. And, of course, we say goodbye to Jane Garvey who leaves Woman's Hour after 13 years. The journalist Elizabeth Day quizzes Jane, and we listen back to some of her funniest moments.Presenter: Melanie Abbott Producer: Rosie Stopher Editor: Sarah Crawley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good afternoon. Welcome to the first Weekend Woman's Hour of what we hope will turn eventually into a better year. We'll be talking about some plans for the future, with the first woman to be NASA's chief flight director who plans to put a woman on the moon. And how to ensure getting older can mean getting fitter.

People can modify exercise regimes. They don't need special advice. They certainly don't need to squeeze into a leotard. And you just do what you can. And if it makes you a bit puffed out and you feel a bit achy afterwards, fantastic. We'll be discussing independence, driving and, of course, exercise. And we'll be looking back to the past as The Archers celebrates its 70th anniversary.

How have the roles of women on the programme changed over the years? And, of course, as Jane Garvey leaves Woman's Hour after 13 years, we look back on some of her favourite bits. I have learnt so much about the social history and about women's lives. One of the things in the planning is to finally get a woman on the moon, though maybe not this year. We do now have, for the first time, a woman as NASA's chief flight director. Holly Ridings will direct the next moon landing, and she's also responsible for what's called the Artemis team, a group of

astronauts aiming ultimately to expand space exploration to Mars. Jane asked her about the NASA schedule for the next couple of years. I'm assuming you're speaking about the Artemis programme. And if so, then we are very, very focused on 2024. But the first flight of the Artemis program will in fact be next year. So it's not very far away. OK, great. So the Artemis program, just tell us exactly what that is. Yes. So Artemis is our campaign is the word I like to use because it involves lots of spacecraft and lots of different people and programs all over the world to head back to the moon and then beyond to Mars. And so that's a very exciting thing that we're all working on.

But next year is what? What happens then? So yes, next year is Artemis 1. So that is the uncrewed test flight. So typically when you build a new spacecraft or a spacecraft launch vehicle system, you will do a test flight without humans on it to make sure everything works correctly. So Artemis 1 is that test flight. And then that will be followed by Artemis 2. And so that will be the first crewed flight for all of the human rated systems. And then Artemis 3 on the books for 2024 is the boots on the moon. The boots on the moon and some of those boots will most certainly be worn by a woman. Yes? Yes, definitely. Just a couple of weeks ago, we had the opportunity to announce the Artemis cadre. From those team members and or potentially other astronauts that currently have other assignments, we're going to pull the first crew members. But the commitment from our administrator and the agency is absolutely that that will contain

the first female that will set boots on the moon. Is it important to you that people are on side with this as an ambition of the NASA program, that you want to be the first to put female feet on the moon? That's an interesting question. Absolutely, yes. I mean, human spaceflight is about perseverance and relevance and the future for all of us. So I personally believe everyone should have that excitement and that ambition to bring something positive to the world. And I would tell you, I think it needs to be representative of the world that we live in and where we are as a society.

And so absolutely, I do believe it's an important ambition for all of us to make that happen. You are NASA's chief flight director. You've been in the job for a little over two years. You happen to be the first woman in that role. But I don't imagine that's the first thing on your mind every morning when you wake up. You don't think, here I am another day at the office. How often does that actually cross your mind? And actually, how significant is it to you? That's a great question. Sorry, I was chuckling because the first thing that crosses my mind

every morning when I wake up is how's the International Space Station doing, right? So, you know, we've been talking about Artemis, but one of NASA's other human spaceflight programs is the International Space Station. Been flying in low Earth orbit for over 20 years. We have crews, astronauts, cosmonauts, male, female, you know, all of our international partners on board continuously. So actually the first thing that crosses my mind every morning is how did the space station do, you know, overnight? When I think about being the first female chief, I only think about it when I'm reminded. And I do get reminded, you know, quite a bit. You're the first female chief. And what does that mean?

And I think it's amazing to have an opportunity to represent for the world that needs that representation. But it's interesting because, you know, NASA does such a great job of diversity inclusion. And then that was the way I was raised as well. And so I don't really have the background of thinking about it even growing up. You know, I just worked hard and did my job. But I've sort of grown into realizing that it has value and importance for the world and started to learn how to embrace that, if that makes sense. Sure. When you were talking there about your first thought being how things are on the International Space Station, does that mean that actually after this year, where so many

of us have been consumed by one thing and one thing only, that you've had the privilege almost of being able to prioritize something else, something actually completely otherworldly. I actually very much agree with that, right? I mean, when you look at the world and the challenges that we've had to be able to have a job where I am continuously involved in producing something that is at least, you know, I believe a very positive value, not only for the United States, but for the entire world, you know, something where people come together, and we're doing science, and we're trying to push, you know, the boundaries of our civilization in a team oriented way. You know, absolutely, it is an anchor point for me, and for I hope a lot

of people in the world. But there's also, well, you tell me, is there a patriotic element to all this? Let's say an American woman lands on the moon, might be a woman of colour in 2024. She's standing on the moon. She's standing on the moon. I mean, I say that as though that's the most, you know, it's a colossal achievement. She's got the stars and stripes. That's a statement, isn't it? To me, that picture that you painted is nuanced. Like it will be just excitement and pride and happiness and relief, you know, on so many levels. And some of that is absolutely, you know, for a country, for the United States of America to have done this.

Yes, there will be pride. But, you know, we also fly the International Space Station and we look at human spaceflight as a global endeavor. So to me, you feel that pride and that excitement and again, you know, relief. Right. Because there's a lot of risk involved in spaceflight for everyone. I just want to know the degree to which you call the shots. So will it be you who tells the people that they are going on that crewed mission to the moon in 2024? And will it be you who tells the people who aren't going? When you talk about decisions that are single point in the moment, real time operations, where we sort of get to make the call, like we're landing on the moon, we're not landing on the moon, you know, right this minute, we're going to do the burn of the engines that take us towards the moon or away

from the moon. You know, that's where we work in mission control as the flight director on console. The crew assignments themselves, you know, will be made early and primarily by the chief astronaut, then some involvement by a small group of folks. And you're included in that group. But what do you think the best qualities are? You know, you have to be part of a team, first of all. And that is true of astronauts. And it's also true of flight directors and the team on the ground and mission control. And you have to have the ability to function in that environment in a safe way. And what that means to me is you can both know the right answer. You must follow me. We must do it my way, but also the opposite,

right? You have to be humble. I made a mistake. I don't know what to do here. And so creating an environment, first of all, where you can have that psychological safety, you know, when you are in a spaceship with a small team of people far away from the earth, or when you are in mission control, you know, with a relatively small team of people supporting those folks is of tremendous value. And so that's partially the expectations that we set as leaders. And it's partially the individuals that are selected to have that flexibility and adaptability from a mental and also a physical standpoint. It's just a colossal undertaking in a way.

You have to have an astonishing range of skills and humility and self-awareness. There just aren't that many people around like that, are there? So I would say no, there are not. I'll tell you what, there are none in broadcasting. I'll tell you that much. Maybe you are. We just met. I don't know. No, no. Carry on. We've actually been in the process of hiring flight directors. You know, we're a small team, less than 30.

And so we add a few to our ranks, you know, every couple of years, less than 100 people. There's actually been fewer flight directors than astronauts is one of the things I like to give them a hard time about. But to your point, it is, I use your words, astonishing list of skills. And it's actually pretty difficult to find. You know, engineers in general, right, are a certain type of person, you know, maybe introverted, very technically oriented, enjoy being right a lot of the time. And then when you need the communications, right, which is one of the things you do for working either in mission control or being on the spaceship and communicating with your team or communicating back to mission control. Everyone likes to use soft skills. And I was

talking to a friend the other day, we should stop talking about soft skills because they're just skills. And it is difficult. And I think that the world we live in now in human spaceflight, right, where we're doing all of this development, we don't have a longstanding program like the shuttle, where at least we sort of had some experience with that vehicle and how it flew. All of the stuff we're doing now is new, where, you know, you have less confidence that you know the answer. And for my generation, I haven't led a team that's gone to the moon. I've led a team that's flown in low Earth orbit a lot, but none of us have led a team that's going to fly to the moon. So in some ways, it's new for the leadership as well as the team that is working. And that I think is challenging from a skills perspective to find people. They're out there.

Mercifully, they are out there. We should have nailed it down earlier, but your degree was in mechanical engineering, wasn't it? Is that right? Yes, that's correct. And I think I'm right in saying that you have done a range of roles, including roles in which you described yourself as not the best qualified person in the room. But nevertheless, you were the person in charge. Yes. So typically when you become a flight director, you have before that done a system that's an area of expertise. So I worked on thermal systems as an example. But when you are selected as a flight director, you then have

to learn all of the systems on whichever spacecraft it is that you're responsible for and in charge of. And so obviously, you don't have deep background in all of those. But yet you in fact, are absolutely the leader of that team. So a lot of your job ends up being able to get your team members who know more technical areas than you do to give you the information that you need, you know, ask the right questions. And really what you do is you manage risk, right? So, you know, when you drive down the road in your car, you can go faster, you can go slow, you can obey the rules or not. And so if go faster, you can go slow, you can obey the rules or not. And so if you decide not to obey the rules, you're taking some amount of risk, right,

that you could get a ticket, that you could get in a wreck. And so we just do that as a primary job responsibility in orbit. Yeah, but you've got to know enough to know what you can afford to ignore. That's absolutely true. And so we do a lot of studying. It's schematics and quizzes and computer-based training where you're practicing emergency scenarios. And then the other thing we do is simulations. This week, I'll do a simulation myself just to keep my skills sharp. And they give you all of these problems and you and your team sit in machine control and solve them. And it as somebody who has to be in a position of authority and who has to make decisions, do you not care whether you're liked or not? Or have you learned not to care?

Yeah, another good question. You know, I think every human cares at some level. And we focus very much in our culture on teamwork. And so it's a fine line between building a team that is high performing, that can make quick decisions and being liked. So I think that I've learned to focus more on what's the best for the team. And as the leader, I'm not the person who needs to be liked, but I'm the person that they need to follow. And so sometimes that is supporting them and hanging out in a way that would look like trying to have people sort of like each other. But really, you have to flex. Sometimes it's absolutely no, we're going this way. So to me, if you focus on what's best for the team,

you don't worry as much about it on a personal level. Can we ask a couple of sort of philosophical questions about whether anyone, any country, any organisation, anybody can begin to regard space as theirs? There will be some people who look to the heavens and think we'd be better off leaving well alone. And I suppose there'll be other people who say, honestly, how has space travel improved us as a human race? There isn't actually any evidence to suggest that it has. Take me on. What do you say to that, Holly? It's about relevancy as a race. It's about learning going forward. It's about pulling, you know, the world together and have a positive event, right?

So when I was young, how I ended up getting into space was I watched the Challenger disaster. So that's kind of my origin story. I was at the very end of elementary school. And many people who are involved in space all over the world, not just Americans, watched that tragedy and got involved in space because they wanted to make it better, right? So there's a fair amount of good in people where they want to fix problems and make things better. But if you think about going to the moon, you know, the first woman standing there on the moon, you know, the boots on the ground, I mean,

it almost gives me chills. Now we have set that positive example for the future, for everyone that's coming after us. And yes, there will be people who will choose not to pick it up. There will be people who will choose to look through their lens in a negative way. But overall, to provide that positive example for the world is powerful. And do you think we should protect the moon in the way that, for example, Antarctica is protected? You know, that's also an interesting question. And I will tell you, doing operations, I don't often get that question. I think right now there's an opportunity for the world to come together and go to the moon.

So, you know, I'm always the team person, right, versus the it belongs to one or the other and we start, you know, shutting groups out. So I am definitely personally of the belief that the moon should be available and accessible to the entire human race. One of these days when we can think about travelling in any form again. Holly Ridings, NASA's Chief Flight Director. More and more of us are living longer, but we don't talk enough about what it means to be old. That's according to consultant geriatrician Dr Lucy Pollock, who joined Jane on Wednesday, along with Dr Niharika Dugal from the University of Birmingham and Anna Dixon from the Centre for Ageing Better. We all want to know about that,

don't we? Jane asked Anna how to approach independence, including driving, for people getting older. We want to support people to stay active for as long as possible. And obviously, if you're in a rural area, being able to drive is critical to still being able to live a full and active life. But it's really important that we think about these things earlier before we get to the sort of crisis situation where we start to lose our independence and that means thinking about where we live do we have access to services is it walkable can we get to the shops and the gp

is our home well adapted and so the things that we're trying to encourage people to think about at the centre for aging better is actually how do we prepare for later life? How do we take action and support our loved ones to do things, to get their home ready, to think about these sorts of aspects of life that are going to maintain our independence for as long as possible? It isn't easy, is it, to take responsibility? I'm just looking at our social media here and a listener says, taking responsibility for an elderly relative is a big one and not one that you get any training for.

I've had to find my way and I question my decisions every single day. Now, of course, some people listening to this programme will be carers in any number of different situations. Other people will be being cared for. Other people will be being cared for. Other people will be proudly independent older people. It's not easy to be a carer and it's not easy to be cared for, is it, Anna? What do you say about the responsibility of someone who's actually being looked after? Because that isn't always that easy either. Yeah, I think we may be supporting a loved one or relative in a sort of light touch way one day, but if their health deteriorates significantly, we might suddenly find ourselves in a position where

we're doing many more hours of more intense caring. And that is a huge impact on our own lives. If we become a carer, we can find it quite isolating. We may find that it's hard to juggle work and caring. So it's really important to have honest conversations with your employer about how they can support you with things like carers leave and flexibility so that you can juggle those things. is accepting that care. We often, and I think we've heard it there, fight that loss of independence and actually don't want to make changes in our lives until it's sort of almost too late. And we see that in our research, whether that's making alterations to our home, we're often, you know, struggling up the stairs, even crawling to get to the upstairs loo. Why aren't we thinking earlier about putting in a downstairs loo? These sorts of changes to our homes could make a massive difference. Well, if you can afford them, of

course. Lucy, you do write in your book about the cliche of the fiercely independent, and it is usually an older woman, isn't it? Yes, and the smaller she is, the more she's likely to be described as being fiercely independent. that will be me by the way i can't wait carry on but actually being fierce is pretty good and i think it does say something about the fact that we do guard our independence and that transition into becoming somebody who needs more help can be difficult and you know forget i mean you're anna's absolutely right making big adaptation to your home can be very important. But I've got lovely patients who will not move a rug that they're going to trip over because they like it like that.

And allowing people to make their own decisions and take some risks is actually important. One of my colleagues describes it as helicopter parenting, but directed up a generation. And sometimes we need to step back from the parents that we love and say, OK, I know you're allowed to do that. And and, you know, you can carry on doing it your way. It's not what I would choose, but you're choosing to do that. Here's an email which illustrates that rather brilliantly from a listener called Wendy. She says, my mother lives 100 miles away from me and I visit fairly regularly or I have done in the past. But she is independent with a support network. But in her own words, nothing wrong with her software, but her hardware is not what it was.

She uses her money wisely to pay others to shop and clean and garden. She recently had another heart attack, a spell in hospital and has just bounced back again. She just will not be beaten. My feeling each time I leave her to go home, though, is overwhelmingly that I am leaving an unaccompanied child alone. However, she proves me wrong every time and gets on with the daily routine once more. It kills me that she misses us all so much, but she never plays on this. Lucy, that story there from Wendy, who describes herself as one of the sandwich generation,

it's very moving and it's not at all untypical, is it? No, it's a really beautiful story and she uses exactly the right words about it. I wonder if, Wendy, change your mindset from the worry to being so proud of that mum. I mean, hats off to her. She is doing all the right things, including paying for care. So that admission that you might need a bit more help, that's a really big step for people to take, you know and and it's really impressive when somebody makes that move when they didn't want to so I just think you know absolutely high high high five to Wendy's mum really yes but it's that feeling of the child and and by the way Wendy is in her is in her 60s the

child who then leaves the mother in what she regards as a slightly childlike state. It's pretty devastating, isn't it? It is. I think it is. And of course, it's become more so in this last year. But I think it is also about accepting that somebody is making their own decisions and taking that step back. And Wendy herself is obviously doing exactly the right things too. She's being hugely supportive and concerned.

It would be wrong not to be worried. Exercise is something that you recommend, Lucy. I mean, it's no secret. But is it OK to start exercising? Perhaps in your 70s or even your 80s, could you still benefit? Absolutely. And the really good news about exercise is that the people who do least at the baseline to start with,

who benefit most from just doing a tiny bit more. So, you you know the people who are running marathons in their 80s fantastic well well done them but actually they're not going to benefit from running two marathons whereas somebody who simply gets up out of a chair once an hour instead of sitting in that chair all day is going to really benefit doing exercises. And I know that sounds modest, but it makes a huge difference. Simply lifting a can of beans 10 times every morning, each arm is going to make a difference to your strength. So people can modify exercise regimes.

They don't need special advice. They certainly don't need to squeeze into a leotard. And you just do what you can. And if it makes a leotard and um and you just do what you can and if it makes you a bit puffed out and you feel a bit achy afterwards fantastic big reward you've you've done the right thing dr naharika duggle is a lecturer at the institute of inflammation and aging at birmingham university um tell us exactly what you what you do and what you lecture in uh so i'm an immunologist with over 10 years of experience in how your exercise or your physical activity could have a beneficial effect on your

immune system. Yeah, this is what intrigues me. So if you are an older person and you can go out for some form of walk today, you are in some way, might you make yourself less vulnerable to COVID? As simple as that. Definitely. In short, that would be definitely. So what happens with advancing ages, we see a remodeling of our immune system. So as a result of this, this is a big contributor towards the poor health that we see with advancing age. And it is this remodeling that is responsible for the increased risk of infections, inflammatory conditions in older adults. And what's important to remember is that our immune system does not operate in isolation. And it is influenced by our environmental factors, our lifestyle choices.

And one of the biggest ones being the amount of physical activity we do. So a lot of people aren't aware that our skeletal muscle is actually a very important immune regulatory organ. What our skeletal muscle can do is it can generate proteins. So these are known as your myokines. And these proteins are known to have an immune protective effect. So even those few steps can have a big, big impact. When you say few steps, should you, if you are a complete novice in the exercise department, and maybe you are in your early 80s, how far is a good distance to start with, Niharika? So in the current scenario, I would say even doing a little, little things at home.

For instance, we have seen a lot of associations in our own research between your muscle strength and your immune system. So small things that you can even do at your home. So we discussed about these arm raises with a little bit of weight. That's excellent. And even strengthening your legs. So if you do the chair stance, that's shown to be very, very effective. Or just small things like climbing up the stairs. So start by doing that a couple of times and then just build up your capacity. The other thing that's absolutely the worst is being sedentary. And I think it's definitely the sedentary behavior has increased now with a lot of older adults, especially who are isolating.

Yeah. And what we have known for a long time now is smoking, it's your sedentary behaviour is the new smoking. So even if we can reduce that, so even if you're watching your telly in the evening, just give yourself a little bit of a break and try and stand for a couple of minutes and watch your telly. Dr Niharika Dougal, Dr Lucy Pollock and Anna Dixon. Lots of you did get in touch with us about ageing.

Vilja emailed us to say, Nothing would make me feel older than attending an exercise class for the over 50s. As a 57-year-old, I refuse to subject myself to this. In my yoga class, the ages range from teenagers to people in their 80s. Surrounding yourself by younger people will take years off you. Someone who prefers anonymity says this positive spin on fierce independence is all very well when, like your example, the person in question isn't in denial of what that means and accepts help outside the

family. In my experience with ageing parents, and I see this happening so often, the so-called independent person is in denial and very stubborn, transferring all of the burden of keeping them not actually independent onto another family member. They refuse to engage with support services and rely on family, expecting them to fill in all the gaps. For example, my mother-in-law, who's 93, refuses to have a cleaner or a shopper, though she can't clean the house herself she's lonely but won't have any carers on a regular basis which would help her children aren't nearby thus when lockdown came she had no local support systems in place and was too late to get on any

waiting list and rosemary emailed she says i'm listening with amusement to your programme on ageing. We are here and listening. We incontinent, demented old people. We can still be proactive and contribute to society. My mother had dementia, so we started a group for carers in our little town. Because we didn't want to be dependent on other people, we run antique fairs to support it. Most of us need more exercise,

so with the support of our brilliant local health centre, I am starting a free exercise class as soon as COVID permits. I was a head teacher, so I'm naturally bossy. Please utilise the talents of older people. We have lots to give. Sounds like Rosemary is pretty busy there. Still to come on Weekend Woman's Hour, the night sky is a source of inspiration for artists as well as scientists. We hear from a folk singer obsessed with the stars

and Jane Garvey's most self-deprecating and funniest moments. It's only the second day of 2021, but on the Woman's Hour website, we're celebrating the women who got us through last year from Nigella Lawson and her brilliant at-home recipes to Michaela Cole and her compelling TV series find the full list over on our website and I do want to remind you that you can enjoy Woman's Hour at any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 o'clock during the week

just subscribe to the Daily Podcast via BBC Sounds, and it is free. You can also, of course, find The Archers over on there, which celebrates its 70th anniversary this year. The programme began as a way of disseminating educational information to farmers and to encourage food production after the Second World War. The first three farmers featured back in the 1950s were all men, Dan Archer, Walter Gabriel and George Fairbrother. Women, of course, were only the farmers' wives. But over the last 70 years, the roles of women in farming have changed both in the Archers and, I'm glad to say, in the real world.

We sent Felicity Finch, who plays Ruth Archer, to visit a woman cited as the inspiration for Helen Archer's foray into cheesemaking. Her name's Mary Quick, and she makes award-winning cheese, keeping the skill of artisan production alive. She's bucking a trend which, since the late 1950s, has seen 95% of cheese produced in factories. She told Felicity about her return to her family farm in the 1980s. So I was living in London. I was married.

I was really missing Devon. Came down to see my mum and dad, as we did every weekend, and my dad started talking about how amazing it was. The cows eat the grass, we take the milk, make it into cheese, manure from everything went back onto the cows eat the grass we take the milk make it into cheese manure from everything went back onto the crops in the grass you know it's a beautiful circle and i said to my dad just so unbidden oh dad can i come back to the business and he said yeah sure but you have to go to college you have to spend time on a farm elsewhere. And then I ran up to my bedroom when my husband had gone to bed, saying, hey, Tom, guess what? I'm coming back to the farm.

And he went, oh, no. Did you have to persuade him? I mean, how hard was that? I'm afraid I didn't. I just said, that's what I'm doing. He had no choice. Well, he had a choice, coming or not coming. And bless him, I'm very, very

happy that he chose to come back to the farm. You've been working in farming for nearly 40 years. What changes have you seen for women in farming during that time? Well, I mean, women were very much on the margin. I mean, the first time I went to the Oxford Farming Conference, I think in 1982, I think there were three women and, you know, 400 men. And somebody came up to me and said, oh, your father must be so disappointed.

None of your brothers are going into farming. I have to say, I had a sense of humour failure. Do you remember what you said? Dare I ask? No, I think I was just a strapperous young adult. Now, how much do you think things have changed? I think farming is pretty traditional in terms of attitudes to women, but the women, it's so crystal clear that some of the best farmers in the country are women.

They've always been around. They just, you know, they didn't come to the top. They weren't seen as leaders. They had to be the sort of power behind the throne or get incredibly frustrated. They would have been absolutely chewing the carpet most of the time. You know, see an idiot make the decisions

when you knew how to do it. But the women would have to be doing it, you know, the woman's way by cajoling. That old-fashioned woman's way where you have to be nice and persuade them and flatter them. All that nonsense. So thinking about Archer's characters, would you say that's like Jill would have experienced?

Jill Archer. Yeah, having to persuade their menfolk. You know, Brian having to be persuaded and Phil having to be persuaded and flattered and have it be his idea. What a waste of time. Which characters in The Archers would you say you identify with at all? Which of the female farmers?

I have to say, I think it might be you, Ruth. We're here among your beautiful cows. Beautiful cows. And we can see for miles. How long have your family been the owners of this land? Since the 1540s. So I'm the 14th generation on this farm. So this looks huge herd.

How many cows do you have? Well, nominal 600. And they're a real mix, aren't they? Well, yeah, a cross-bred mix because that's what we want. Well, we do the New Zealand grazing. New Zealand grazing. Yeah, that sounds very familiar. That's what we do.

Our farming system in Brockfield is inspired by New Zealand grazing. New Zealand grazing, yeah, that sounds very familiar. That's what we do, our farming system. That's what you do, that's right. And Brockfield is inspired by New Zealand grazing. Well, that's right. It's odd, you know, the archers seem to do what we do, so that's amazing. Am I right in saying that means that the cows are outdoors grazing the pasture as much as possible during the year?

Yeah, the pastures can get quite pugged with the cows going in when it rains. But what we've done here is we've measured the grass in this paddock and they'll eat it down. And if they pug it, it's just one little paddock. They're about to go in for milking and they'll go into a fresh paddock next time. So that system, your grass grows 30% more. I've done many a scene where I've been measuring the grass. Is it plate? What's it called? A plate meter. Plate meter. I should know. And I think Pip's doing a lot of that now.

Yeah. At Brookfield the reason we're doing this is because it's a lot cheaper as well as better quality of milk. What is the reason that you're doing this here? Well one of the key things is the cows are doing the work. they're feeding themselves and they're spreading their own manure and the other thing is the constituents the fat and protein tends to be much higher in fat and protein for our cheese making you tend to get this lovely flavor in the milk and the term you call that technically is called cow breath which you're just thinking of husband breath that you might think not so good but cow breath is this lovely warm, animal-y, grassy, lovely, yummy, gorgeous thing. It sounds beautiful. And that comes through into the milk.

Come on. They love you. Well they are lovely. You can see why the Hindus worship cows. Yes. You know they're gentle giants. These are average weight probably 650 kilos and they're just generous, gentle're gentle giants. These are average weight, probably 650 kilos. And they're just generous, gentle, beautiful creatures.

It's funny, the nearer you get to them, the way they move en masse, there's a grace to them, isn't there? They're not glumphing, as you always think of cows. They're not stupid. They're just completely sort of sentient. Isn't that a pretty jersey? Yes. It's nearly pure jersey, isn't it? Honey-coloured.

So sweet. She was such a lively calf too. Ones with completely white faces, they've got a bit more Montbelliard breeding in them. Do you see there's a couple there? Yeah. And Helen Archer is famous for her Borsica Blue cheese and she moved into Montbelliards to make even better cheese.

You're famous for your award-winning cheese and would you say the Montbelliards are make even better cheese. You're famous for your award-winning cheese. And would you say the Montbelliards are very much a part of that success? It's part of the whole mix. You want a nice protein to firm up the cheese. And the Montbelliard tends to preferentially give a lot of that strong protein. Sorry, I'm going a bit nerdy, but this is how I spend my life. Tasting cheese and thinking, I wonder whether we should make this change or that change

and how we can play tunes on this lovely grass-based system. And when was it that you first started the cheese-making business? Well, it was my mum, actually. My darling mum, she built the cheese dairy in 1973. So for me, cheese has got a Durham accent because there was a remarkable lady what she's still around Val Bynes and she taught the whole of the new wave of cheese makers how to make cheese I expect she taught Helen how to make her cheese Helen and the Archers yeah so she's from very near Newcastle.

Very near Newcastle. Near where Ruth's from. Near where Ruth is from. That's right. She is one of those remarkable ladies in cheese. Our whole tradition of cheese technologists, and they were all women because the people who made cheese were all women on the dairy farms.

So it's always been women in cheese making. Well, Tesla d'Urberville's milk cows and made cheese were all women on the dairy farms. So it's always been women in cheese making? Well, Tessa the d'Urbervilles, milk cows and made cheese. You know, desirable women were the women who made good cheese and butter. We're celebrating the 70th anniversary of the Archers. Over those 70 years, do you feel there has been a real change in how much people care about where the food on their plate actually comes from? Well I think what there was in the 1950s, we have to remember, Europe had been starving after the war. It was about food and food at any cost. And then in the 70s, you know, people started to be aware of the costs of producing food at any cost, you know, the cost of DDT, the cost of piling on the nitrogen and

pesticides. And people started going, whoa, food must have no environmental cost. Actually that means no food. We have to find a way now, that's what's really exciting. We have food that enhances and supports environment and the planet. Food that's made from beautiful farms, that supports lovely social structures, that supports beautiful ecology. When you buy those foods you are funding those environments consumers have got all the power show us what's in here okay so these are the baby cheeses and if i actually turn the light on and then we can do a little bit of time travel how many are there in here there must be hundreds of yeah well yes those cheese made in nove cheeses were made in October. So you can see them starting to grow their beautiful coat of mould. And these moulds are really unique to this farm.

We swapped some cheeses over with another cheesemaker, Jamie Montgomery. His cheeses matured here and our cheeses matured there. And actually they tasted completely different. So you get the flavours that belong to this farm. One thing that I'm doing with some other friends in the world of cheese is we're creating something called the Academy of Cheese. All the people in cheese to be honoured and recognised for everything that they do and also to give people a common vocabulary.

And we're actually now training people all over the world. ac hefyd i roi cyfnod cyffredinol i bobl. Ac rydyn ni'n hyfforddi pobl ar hyn o bryd ar hyn o bryd. Ynghyd, mae'r Archers, a'r hyn rydyn ni'n ei wneud, a'r Academi o Ches, ar ddiwedd hynny, yn y Bwll, neu mewn unrhyw ffwrdd y ddaear, byddwch yn cael eu gwasgaru. Gwych ches. Ac pan ddych chi, ble mae'r ches hwnnw'n dod o? Byddant yn dweud, o, mae hynny'n dod o Bwrchester Blw, ac mae hwn yn y ffwrdd sy'n ei wneud,

ac mae hwn yn y M the Montbelliard cows. People will know that stuff and find it interesting in the same way that, you know, you can go to a pub and ask for a Sauvignon Blanc. Helen would love hearing you say that. Dare I ask, are there any farming storylines in The Archers that you ever think, oh my goodness, that's really not true to life? I don't know. I think the agricultural stories are pretty good. But I'm really interested to hear you get on to carbon neutral, net zero and the biodiversity. And you can hear those stories sort of starting to brew, you know.

Well, rewilding is now starting to be a bigger story. But it's also, you know, there's going to be this extraordinary thing called net gain. Property developers are going to be required to deliver biodiversity but they can buy that biodiversity from farmers so that could be a really important source of funds for farmers in the future how much easier would you say it is for young women coming into farming now than it was oh head and shoulders i mean years ago. Completely different world. And also now there are so many different ways of occupying land. People can have short-term tenancies or they can have agreements or there are all sorts of different ways of occupying land now.

Who will take over here when you retire? Oh, gosh. Well, that is actually quite a complicated question because I'm running the business on behalf of my family my daughter I think would be really keen to come back to the firm and if that's what she wants to do she will need to persuade my family she's the best person for the job so I feel really torn because I can so get you know I want somebody to take this business on and have it grow to new levels.

And I also think my daughter would be amazing at that. But, you know, that's a discussion for the future. Mary Quick speaking to Felicity Finch, who plays Ruth Archer. Now, we heard from Holly Ridings earlier about her love of space. But what about those of us with our feet placed firmly on the ground? The stars and the moon are motives that appear in cultures around the world, in literature, music, religious texts and in film. Corinne Polwart is a folk singer who's working on a new theatre piece called The Only Light Was Stars.

Jane asked her where her love for the night sky came from. Well, I guess it started as a child. You get a great view of the stars from where I grew up. Where was that? It was in Stirlingshire in central Scotland but I studied astronomy for a year at university and I guess that really whetted my appetite and I had a wee bit of an epiphany when I was on tour as a musician about 20 years ago in New Mexico in the States. I made a flight in a tiny plane over the very large array radio telescope in the desert in New Mexico and it was just the most incredible experience. It's the installation that's in the film Contact that Jodie Foster stars in so there's all kinds of cultural stuff bound up with that place and the whole idea of humans making contact with alien life. I think

that's really what sparked my interest in the kind of culture around space, but also the science of it and trying to make sense of the science as a non-scientist. But also as a songwriter, the moon and the stars and space are such iconic, you know, motifs and metaphors for big ideas like love and hope and the kind of bigness of life. I think I was four or five when the moon landings happened I know I watched it at primary school that was I suppose an extraordinary time to be alive when I think about it although I was probably a bit too young to really appreciate it. How old are you Corrine? I wasn't born yet when the moon landings happened so I'm a post-moon baby.

Yeah, but it is significant, isn't it, actually? It is, and because it means that I'm born in an era where that vision of seeing the Earth from somewhere else is part of the entirety of my life, and it's such a powerful, dominant image. Like, in the course of my lifetime, we have been able, as a species, to see ourselves from outside the planet that we live we have been able as a species to see ourselves from outside the planet that we live on and that's a pretty huge thing but I think also as humans who

live here we have you know well before the moon landings for millennia we've seen our ourselves and our lives and our questions and preoccupations reflected back at us from the stars the stars are full of stories like all around the world. For example, I'm obsessed with one particular constellation. I'm obsessed with the constellation of Cassiopeia, which is the W-shaped one that you can see spinning around the pole star. And here, the Greek myths are dominant. They tell the story of Cassiopeia and Andromeda,

and it's a story bound up with pride and hubris and violence. But if you go to the Northern Arctic Circle, the Sami people tell a story of the great elk. And if you go to the Marshall Islands, the people there tell a story about the great porpoise. So I think the stories that we see in the sky very much reflect what we know and the places that we live in and the things that matter to the cultures that we grow up in.

When the grid went down again again tonight the only light was stars through the velux window Cassiopeia I can see you shine The song takes place in an imagined future after a nuclear explosion where all the lights go down and the electricity grid goes down and all that can be seen are the stars in the sky almost as if they've never been seen before. And the reason I put these two things together, I guess,

is because I'm fascinated by the fact the light emitted by stars is the result of nuclear fusion so it's a kind of playoff between the wonder of the stars, the might and power and how they yield heat and light into the universe. I can see you shine Corinne Polwart, and don't forget, if you would like to listen back to our space programme, it's available in full on BBC Sounds. Now, I'm sure you can't have failed to notice that this week was Jane's last programme here on Woman's Hour.

After 13 years of quizzing all manner of people for us, we decided to turn the tables on her and we invited the journalist Elizabeth Day to give her an exit interview. Everyone knows that you're a phenomenal journalist, but listeners are particularly going to miss your self-deprecating style and the way you make everyone laugh. We've put together just a small selection of some of your most memorable moments. The sultry Spanish accent you hear in the middle is the slightly bewildered Penelope Cruz. Now I make a cup of tea. First thing I do every single morning of my life, I'm afraid to say I lob in a bag, a sweetener and the milk and then the hot water.

Am I? That's appalling, is it? Oh, Nancy Mitford would disown you. Does she think of me? What she'd think of me. Yes, go on. What are you going to make for us today then? In fact, you can go over now to your very elaborate chopping table

that we've set up for you there. It is a salad, Jane, I'm afraid. Oh. No, sorry. Only because it's terrible to cook anything in here, so I thought something that I could toss together would be better. Yes.

I mean, the trouble is, salad. I never crave a salad. Now, are you seriously going to tell me that you can put me in a situation where I am fantasising about eating a salad? This is a salad of watercress, fennel, oranges, feta, and then honeyed almonds. Honeyed almonds?

I have to say, and I'm going to be really honest with you, I think you're a fabulous cook. The salad ideas in this new book strike me as being just... I'm thinking about myself, 20 to 6 in the evening, trying to cobble something together for the tea at 6 o'clock. I'm a northerner, we're early eaters. Some of the ingredients I'd never heard of. Really? Like what?

Well, I mean, some of the seedy, pulsy things. I mean, nearly all supermarkets have those, don't they, Jane? OK, so I'm just being lazy. You're at the chocolate aisle. I'm at the hollow Easter novelty item aisle. That's where I am. And now the end is near And so I face the final curtain Indoor relationship. Am I being naive or is that... I mean, I know people have indoor cats.

I know I'm going to be told off because I'm straying into cat areas again and that's not good. Of which I'm certain... You actually lived in London, didn't you, for quite some time when you were making this film? Yes, in Belsize Park. I can't imagine you in London somehow. I love that area. Yeah, and I love London.

The only thing that is hard for me is the weather because I'm Spanish and we are used to have a lot of sun. Yeah, but it's not just that. It's the whole Spanish way of life where you get up late, you eat late at night. But that's not true. Spanish people cannot wake up late every day like everybody thinks. Everybody works, maybe.

Everybody has dinner later. Oh yeah, right, yeah. Well, how would people work if everybody's- Well, that's what I don't understand. I've been to Spain and people are going out to eat at 11 o'clock at night. Yes, and maybe the shops open at 10 instead of at eight. You know, the schedule is a little bit later,

but the same amount of hours of work are accomplished. OK, so did you transport your Spanish way of life to Belsize Park then? To everywhere I go. Do you? I still can't have dinner when I'm in America or anywhere else. I can't have dinner at 6pm. No, that's not for me, no. No, I eat at 5.30. What? I know, I just don't care dinner at 6pm. No. You just can't do it? That's not for me, no. No, I eat at 5.30.

What? I know, I just don't care. I'm starving. But then what time do you go to sleep? About nine. And then you wake up at six? Yeah. No.

Curtis, you are about to get the opportunity of a lifetime. Oh, I'm very interested right now. I've had a lot of them recently, actually. But this is going to be... Because I want you to attempt to teach me to do a couple of extremely simple dance steps. Absolutely. All health and safety has been taken care of here.

We've got a sensible surface. I'm not in the most sensible of shoes, but they're not my highest either. And I'm going to hand over to everybody else while I slip over with you to the mat. We're going to do a basic cha-cha. Oh, it just couldn't be any more basic. It's got to be the most basic cha-cha-cha.

It will be very basic, so don't you worry at all. All right, let's go over there. Shirley, I would like you to slip into commentator mode. And now, as tears subside, I find it all so amusing. Plenty of you wanted to know the conclusion of the frozen eyeball story, and the good news is he's fine, his eyeballs are defrosted and even as I say that anyway he was okay I should have asked another failure of what passes for my journalism but sometimes time is against us she said covering her tracks is there another pair of boots you

haven't discussed forgive me I got so lost in that moment there that I've slightly lost track of the boot conversation, but carry on. My third pair was the pair of running shoes. I was supposed to lead an Everest marathon trip this year on the 29th of May, which is the date that Tenzing Hillary summited Everest. Unfortunately, due to the pandemic, that was cancelled. I did run my marathon here in Wiltshire.

So I have run a marathon and I hope to do it in 2021. Oh, I am. Well, I mean, I seem to be speaking to a lot of women this week. We talked to Pip Hare, who's doing the Round the World sailing race yesterday. And I come away just thinking, you know, I'm happy if I've gone to Greggs and come back successfully. She looks a little nervous. The head is a little bit tilted there. She needs to get that posture a little bit. But she completed the step.

Never use the same foot twice, darling. Think of dancing as that walk. It literally is. Left, right, left, right, left. Always change weight. One foot to the other. For the sake of the nation's sanity, let's go to the music. Here's a backhanded compliment from John,

who says, I may be getting boring, but this was another interesting and relevant programme this morning. Thanks. And we heard there from Penelope Fog diana henry penelope cruz curtis pritchard shirley ballas and valerie parkinson and of course the inimitable jane garvey yes actually i'm going i am going a bit wobbly now but then we are allowed we're having a drink we are we are now having a drink a socially distanced drink. You've been here for 13 years at the helm and you're leaving in the midst of a pandemic. How are you feeling right now?

Genuinely, this has been one of the toughest decisions of my life. And I could, the reason I'm going is because I could have stayed. And I sometimes think the hardest thing is to change when it's actually the last thing you want to do, but probably the best thing to do. It's the best thing for the programme, which is, I really do mean it when I say that I think, I love radio, I've loved radio all my life

and I've been so, so fortunate to have a job doing the thing that actually I will go home today and I will listen to the radio for the rest of today and all of tomorrow and all of the day after. I just love live radio. But Woman's Hour is one, it's not just a radio programme, it's one of the radio programmes. And I've had the chance to do it. And it's just been an amazing privilege. But the programme needs to move on. And now it can. And that's good. You've changed Woman's Hour. But how has Women's Hour changed you,

do you think? Oh, my goodness. I have learned so much. I have learned so much about the social history and about women's lives. You know, the terrible truth, and it is always terrible, is that when I came to Women's Hour, I knew about feminism and I was a feminist, but I'm not sure I really saw I'd wanted to be a radio presenter and I'd become a radio presenter and so I'd think what are the what are people complaining about and during the course of this cataclysmic 13 years on Women's Hour I have learnt that actually for all sorts of reasons women have to be that bit better we have to try harder it's going to be a bit tougher for us and I really am glad that I've been able to

play a small part in just opening up a whole range of conversations. And we talked about what you will miss. What won't you miss? Timings. People like the woman next door who's already gearing up to shout 44 minutes, 30 seconds. That, that's what I won't miss. And apart from that, I can't think of anything that I won't miss about this programme. The people are, the listeners are remarkable. There's such a cross section. We've got men who listen. We've got men who listen to be annoyed. We've got men who listen to learn about women and the women in their lives.

And that's brilliant. And I know they're hugely welcome. Our female audience ranges in age from, I don't know, 19 to 103. We get emails from women in their 90s. We get just such a cross section of experience and point of view. And I absolutely love that. And also our listeners are genuinely unshockable. We talk about all sorts of stuff.

Very, very rarely do they complain about any of it or raise any concerns about what they've heard. They are interested, they are open, they are the backbone of the nation and I'm so proud to have been a part of it. I will now be forever known as a former presenter of Woman's Hour and that, as far as I'm concerned, is absolutely fine. I'll settle for that.

Elizabeth Day quizzing Jane. That is it for today, but do join us on Monday for Emma Barnett's first edition of Woman's Hour. She'll be here at two minutes past 10, but for now, from me, do enjoy the rest of your weekend. I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig,

the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.