Woman's Hour - A new drug for hot flushes and night sweats, Combatting loneliness at Christmas

Episode Date: December 22, 2023

A new drug called Veoza used to prevent hot flushes and night sweats has been approved in the UK. Also known as fezolinetant, it is prescription-only and will be available privately from January. Dr Paula Briggs, chair of the British Menopause Society and consultant in sexual and reproductive health at Liverpool Women’s Hospital joins Jessica to explain the importance for many women of this decision.What would you say to spending Christmas with your friends instead of your family? You may have seen an article this morning in the Independent where the journalist Katie Glass says she'll be having a 'women-only Christmas', sharing the day with four like-minded girlfriends. Some of us may choose to do this intentionally, for others it may not be their first choice but they are making the most of the situation. And sometimes the most unexpected Christmases turn out to be the most fun. Journalist Daisy Finer spent Christmas last year with a female friend, when her children were with her ex-husband, and talks about 'the joy of a very self-centred Christmas'.Have you got a signature scent – and would you share where you got it from? Whether you are ‘gatekeeping’ your perfume or keen to spread the word about your favourite scent, smell is one of the most evocative and emotive of our senses. Joining Jessica Creighton to talk all things fragrance, Guardian beauty editor Sali Hughes and Experimental Perfume Club’s Roshni Dhanjee discuss why we want to smell unique, gifting perfume, and why smell is so connected to our emotions and identity.Can loneliness really take the same toll on your physical and mental health as smoking and lack of exercise? The British Psychological Society says it’s a scourge on society and should be treated as a public health emergency. It’s calling for the Government’s 2018 Loneliness Strategy to be updated to reflect the impact of the pandemic. We talk to Julia Faulconbridge, a consultant clinical psychologist from the organisation, and also Liz Veitch, a retired deputy headteacher who became increasingly lonely after being widowed, moving house and then facing the lockdowns. She was introduced to 19-year-old Ankita Menon, a volunteer with Kissing It Better, whose mission statement is ‘to reduce the isolation of old age by bringing the generations together.’Elle and The Pocket Belles sing live in the Woman’s Hour studio on the last live programme before Christmas. Describing themselves as an all-girl retro band, they are a vocal harmony group who have been singing together for more than a decade. They’ll be creating more Christmas cheer with a couple of seasonal songs.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Kirsty Starkey

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. What do you do when your expected festive plans don't quite happen as you thought they would? What have you done instead? Well, one journalist has written in the papers today about her woman-only Christmas spent with female friends. Have you ever done the same? Tell me about a time when your Christmas hasn't gone to plan and, well, you've just had to make the most of it.

You can text us, as always, on the number 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can WhatsApp me as well on 03700 100 444. Remember that there may be data charges that apply depending on your provider. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour and you can email us through our website as well. Also this morning, perhaps a lifeline for women going through menopause. A new drug has been described as a game changer in dealing with hot flushes and night sweats. I'll be discussing with an expert whether Vioza is as good as it sounds. Also, why loneliness has been described as just as dangerous to our health as smoking. And what does your perfume say about you? They can become part of our identity. They can be used to portray a certain

image. Many of you might be buying fragrances as gifts at this time of year. Two experts will dive into our relationship with perfumes, how we use them, how they can immediately transport us back to another time and place, and also very keenly advice on buying the right fragrance as a gift, because it can be very tricky, can't it? So tell me about that as well. How do you wear your perfumes? Do you have different ones for different occasions do you change depending on how you feel or maybe you just have the one perfume and it's become your signature that text message again is 84844 and the whatsapp number 03700100444 Now, Christmas plans. What would you want to do this Christmas, but perhaps can't? Some people like to spend it with friends instead of family. And you may have seen the article that

I mentioned a bit earlier in The Independent, where the journalist Katie Glass says she'll be having a women only Christmas, sharing the day with her four like minded girlfriends instead. Well, my next guest is the journalist Daisy Finer. She spent Christmas last year with a female friend when her children were with her ex-husband and has written about, and I quote, the joy of a very self-centred Christmas. Good morning, Daisy. I like that quote. Thank you. I like our Christmas. Yeah. Tell me then, how did that decision come about and how was it spending it with a friend instead? It was great. Both of us are divorced and our kids were with our ex-husbands. So we decided to get together and, yeah, have a Christmas, which we couldn't have planned in a million years otherwise.

So what did you do? I'm intrigued. Well, we had a plan, but the great thing was the plan didn't go to plan and it didn't matter because it was just us. So, you know, we had a lie-in. We weren't waking up at four o'clock in the morning. Blissful, blissful. Yeah, really blissful. And we were going to have a Christmas brunch. But instead, we went for a really long walk, got drenched in the rain, had baths, gave each other stockings.

That was nice because we gave each other girly gifts, which, you know, you'd never treat yourself to. And then, yeah, had our Christmas lunch. And the Christmas lunch consisted of a ready meal from cook we decided we were so so exhausted with making food for the kids the whole time that we would yeah uh disgracefully get a ready meal but it was actually delicious my mother will never forgive me but oh no but you need must need must and it was really nice it was less you know less of that feeling of men going off for a whiskey whilst we made the meal and more sisters doing it for ourselves you know I like that and did it feel less stressful then because you didn't have children there to look after and you didn't have lots of people to

cook for yeah by the afternoon we were in our pyjamas watching movies, you know, having a drink and just properly talking to each other. It's very hard to get quality time with female friends without kids around your ankles. So, yeah, it was great. So an ideal time to bond with your girlfriends as well? Absolutely. And we've both been through similar life experiences,

so it's very nice to kind of talk deep about how you really are, you know. And did you get into that? Did you get into some heartfelt conversations? Yeah, we really did about how hard it was, you know, not just not having a traditional Christmas, but stepping out of a marriage and deciding to leave it. And, you know, congratulating each other on being brave, basically. Oh, my goodness. goodness yeah that's really deep conversations so how would you rank it then amongst your other Christmases it was one of the best I've ever had I have to say yeah basically because it was surprising you know yeah yeah way better than

being by yourself sitting in a corner crying it was good to have a plan that's what I would encourage anyone facing this kind of situation it's you know it's hard to be without your children that's one of the things you have to get used to that you're not sharing all the magic moments with them but there are alternative things you can do and uh there are people listening who've got in touch to talk about when their Christmas plans have gone a bit different to how they might have expected Laura says I'm an only child and single. Both my parents have died and I now spend Christmas with a friend. We go out for lunch on Christmas Day. I love it. Stress free, relaxed, good company. I hear friends talking about the

stress of having to do Christmas things that they just don't want to do. Only my third Christmas with no parent, but I enjoy Christmas more now than ever. And more than I thought I would. Thank you for that message, Laura. I suppose that that speaks to what you're saying as well, Daisy. So what tips would you have for people who might be in a similar situation this year? Mostly, I think, make a plan. You know, don't be a victim to circumstance. Like you can create something really lovely and different and original. I one year I went I realized this is very spoiled but one year I went to India um to a spa with my gay friend Cornelius and we had such a laugh I remember one woman came up to us and said at first we thought you were married but then we realized you're getting on too well um so you know that

that was a very decadent way to do it but small and quiet can be nice too but yeah just you know, that was a very decadent way to do it. But small and quiet can be nice too. But yeah, just, you know, you don't have to needlessly suffer. You can do something fun and different that you'd never be able to do otherwise. You don't need to needlessly suffer. I like that. I think that is advice for life. Daisy Finer, journalist, thank you very much for coming on to Women's Hour

and telling us about your unexpected plans. Appreciated. Now, a new treatment for menopausal and perimenopausal women in the UK has been described as game changing. Around a third of the UK female population, that's about 13 million women, are of menopausal age. According to a University College London report released earlier this year. About 70% of them will experience hot flushes and night sweats. The new drug, Vioza, helps prevent those symptoms and recently has been given approval for use in the UK.

That will start in January. It will be available privately and be prescription only. Dr Paula Briggs is the chair of the British Menopause Society and consultants in sexual and reproductive health at Liverpool Women's Hospital. Good morning, Paula. Good morning. Now the term game-changing that was used to describe this drug, as I mentioned, it was used by one of the professors who actually led on a trial that helped pave the way for its development. So from your point of view, from a neutral point of view, is it game changing? Well, for most women, hormone replacement therapy is the obvious treatment for menopausal symptoms.

But I think with Fioza, this is for women who either can't have HRT because of a medical condition or who don't want HRT. And, you know, as you said already, hot flushes and night sweats are common. They're the commonest symptom of menopause and they can have a significant detrimental effect on quality of life. So for that group of women, this medication could potentially be game changing. And, you know, it'll be a whole range of different medical issues. But for example, women who've had hormone dependent cancers, who are either contraindicated or afraid to take HRT, this is something for them. And I think it's really important that we have choices for all women. You know, there are lots of different ways to manage menopausal symptoms.

And our aim is to support women to choose the method that's most suitable for their circumstances. Oh okay so are you saying it's used as an alternative or it would be used in conjunction with HRT? No this will be an alternative treatment you wouldn't mix the two of them. Okay and does it work immediately and if it it does, how well? Yeah, so in the clinical trials that have been done so far, there was a statistically significant improvement in hot flushes and night sweats. It doesn't take them away altogether. But I think if you are experiencing severe symptoms and you see even a 50 percent improvement could have a significant beneficial effect. And, you know, I think night sweats will often disrupt sleep and disrupted sleep can have a very significant effect on how women function, you know,

particularly in relation to things like brain fog. You know, it can be very difficult to do your job or to manage your family if you feel completely exhausted. Is it suitable for all women? It would be very difficult to make a sweeping statement like that. I think for women listening, it's important that you have an individualised consultation with somebody who's got an interest in menopause to determine whether you would be suitable for treatment with the drug. And any risks associated with this? So rather than thinking about risks,

it's more about side effects. And all medication has side effects. HRT has side effects. It can cause abnormal bleeding, for example, which is common. This drug can cause diarrhoea. It can cause gastrointestinal disturbance or upset, and it can affect sleep. It can cause ins, it can cause gastrointestinal disturbance or upset and it can affect sleep, it can cause insomnia. So it's not free from potential side effects. But I think for women who might be interested in seeking a prescription, until you actually try the medication for yourself, you're not going to know whether you would experience side effects or not. Yeah, you mentioned the prescription there and some of our listeners will be listening to this and happy to hear that help possibly is on the way but it will only be available privately initially won't it? Does that make it I suppose inaccessible to a lot of women

then? I think it will vary as to how women access the medication. Many GPs now have done additional training and have expertise in menopause and because this drug isn't available on the NHS they could potentially prescribe for their own patients and that would reduce the cost because it doesn't necessitate a private consultation. Many women do seek menopause management in the private sector and they would therefore be eligible for a private prescription. Now, this is really part of a process. So when the drug becomes available initially on private prescription, it will allow real world data collection. So that will help with the NICE evaluation and a date hasn't been set for that but if and when NICE approve this medication it will then allow it to go on to GP formulary and let you know that will support GPs who feel

comfortable to prescribe it to prescribe it for NHS patients. Is that something that takes months years from your previous experience? If NICE approve the medication it's much quicker so I can see a logical reason why this drug has been made available privately initially. And how much would this cost? So the actual cost we think is £44.80 but if you take a private prescription. That's per dose? That's for 28 days. Right okay. Treatment. If you take a private prescription to a community pharmacy, then generally speaking, a certain figure will be added on to that. So it could be anything up to 50% of the cost,

which would take it to around £60, £65 per month. Let's talk about the wider context of this then, the wider environment that we're working in. And does this breakthrough in research suggest perhaps a shift in focus after decades of what some people might describe as the neglect of older women's quality of life? Yeah I think there's been a lot of focus on menopause in the last few years and in women's health generally I think we're seeing more focus which is really important and research for new medication is really important because I've already mentioned you know we have really significant numbers of

women who they're not always absolutely contraindicated from for hormonal treatment but they may be afraid to take something which they think may be detrimental to their health and we have to get this right because if women are anxious they're going to lightly stop the medication and I think we want to be as supportive as possible and make sure that women have the right information on which they base the choices that they make. Yeah as someone who's been in this field for decades are you glad to see that the focus is perhaps shifting then to more research being done on menopause? Yes, I mean, I think things really changed with the NICE guidance that was published in 2015. And prior to that, we were recovering from the Women's Health Initiative study, which was published in 2002. And at that time, really all research into management of menopause stopped.

I mean, many women stopped taking HRT and many clinicians stopped prescribing it. So this is really welcome. And I really feel like we need to get a balance on things now. There's been a huge hype, hasn't there? And it's sometimes difficult to meet the needs of everyone. But I think we're now entering a period where we've got much better education for GPs, much better support and you know women should be able to access menopause management on the NHS, they shouldn't need to pay for it. There was a recent survey, I'm sure you're aware of this, from the Unite Union that claimed one in four women say that their workplace support for the menopause is lacking. I mean, that still suggests

there's a demand for women to be better looked after. Yes, and I think we also have to recognise that there's been so much done with big organisations, the police, the fire service, the NHS, but it's very difficult to catch up when there's been a huge period in which there was not that focus. So my feeling is that things are getting a lot better, but it doesn't mean that all women in the workplace are supported. And of course, that would be the aspiration that we work not just with big employers, but with small employers to to make things better for women. Dr. Paula Briggs, thank you for coming on to Women's Hour Dr Paula Briggs is the chair of the British Menopause Society and consultant in sexual and reproductive health at Liverpool Women's Hospital

now I'm just turning to look here at the messages that we've got coming in because I asked you about the perfumes that you wear whether you perhaps wear them for different people different occasions, different circumstances in your life or perhaps if you just want to emit a different smell. And lots of you have got in touch. I had a feeling that this was going to be the case. Wendy from York says the original Joy by Jean Pateau, not the new version, is my absolute favorite. It smells of roses and jasmine and I've worn it for more than 40 years. Wow. I bought my first bottle on my first foreign holiday to Paris with my boyfriend at the time.

My boyfriend is now my husband of 38 years and I still love them both. I wonder if the perfume had anything to do with the fact that they've still been married for that long. Maxine says I've been wearing an Arabic perfume for about 30 years. I just love it. My children say they can smell me after I've seen them. It lingers. Sadly, I can't smell it myself and more. I'm so used to its fragrance. Perfume is definitely a statement of your personality. And I wonder if our next guest will agree with that because there's nothing quite like a smell or a fragrance to immediately transport you back to a place or a time or a specific memory of a person. Perhaps you're experiencing that more than usual at the moment because of course Christmas is peak perfume season. Whilst gifting fragrances is something

that we've done for years, there is a new trend growing and that is perfume gatekeeping. The act of not sharing what fragrance you're wearing, although our listeners seem to be quite up for that, to stop others from copying your favourite scent. I wonder if our next guests have actually done that. Roshni Danji is Fragrance Editor and Perfumer at Experimental Perfume Club in London. Good morning, Roshni. And Sally Hughes is Beauty Editor at The Guardian. Good morning to you

both. Have you heard of this term gatekeeping, perfume gatekeeping? Is it a big issue or is it more of a passing trend, Roshni? I think there probably is a level of wanting to keep that personal scent to yourself. As your readers also said, having a fragrance is so personal and so important and has a memory and emotion attached. So wanting to preserve that and kind of not let it get diluted by everyone wearing the same thing is probably a factor that does play in a lot of people's lives.

And can you tell me what perfume you're wearing? Are you gatekeeping that information? I'm wearing one of our own fragrances from EPC. It's called Sandalwood Musk. And to me, it's just a great fragrance to sort of complement the skin and make you feel like, you know, it's a very intimate sort of fragrance. I think fragrance is really important in terms of representing that facet of your personality. So as you mentioned earlier, it might be about the season. It might be about a person or an event. It might be about bringing back a memory as well.

So we have some some of our customers like to wear a fragrance for every city they visit. Really? So that it always represents that place, for example. Okay, yeah. So I definitely think it's important. And Sally, good morning. Roshni mentioned the need for people to try and feel unique. Is that your experience as well? Yes. I mean, I think my job has to be the opposite of gatekeeping of fragrances because

my job is to share why I love them. But certainly, I think perfume becomes such a very personal and individual part of yourself. I mean, it's how you smell. It's how you present yourself to the world. So I can understand why people don't want to share what they're wearing, because they don't want somebody else to kind of embody their sort of spirit. So I do completely get that. I always think it's a little bit like sharing a baby name. You don't want to tell anyone your baby name in case they take it and then you have to find a new one. And I think people are a little bit like that with fragrance. And what are you wearing this morning? So I'm wearing a new fragrance by a house called Bibby and it's called Radio Child,

which I realise is a bit of a strange name, but it's a new perfumery, which again is another musky skin scent, but I'll be wearing something much punchier on Christmas day. Ah so for you it depends on the occasion and how you're feeling on the day? I can't remain monogamous to one fragrance however every single morning I think about what clothes am I wearing, where am I going, what kind of and what do I need to project that day? Am I in a big meeting where I need to really hold my own and therefore have a perfume that can do the same, so something a bit stronger? What do I need to embody? And what's the kind of story I want to tell about myself that day?

And I think although obviously my job is to have hundreds and hundreds of perfumes, I think most women have a handful and sort of cycle between them depending on the occasion and what else they're wearing. Is it appropriate with a casual outfit? Are you a bit more dressed up and want a fragrance to match? All of these things play a part in the decision making. Yeah, they really do kind of make up and help us build our identity sometimes. But Roshni as well, the sense of smell that we have as humans is so evocative I'm always surprised at how I could just be walking down the street and I catch a whiff of something even the slightest whiff and I'm immediately transported back to another time or a memory and there's

actually science behind this isn't it as to why our sense of smell is so evocative that's right so unlike all your other senses your sense of smell immediately goes evocative. That's right. So unlike all your other senses, your sense of smell immediately goes to your limbic system. So where the emotions and memories are processed before going to your cognitive system. Okay. So your other senses will go almost the other way around. So you'll kind of think about it more cognitively before you feel it. Whereas scent will kind of bring back that more primal part of you. So I think it's quite important as well in that sense. I'd agree with Sally as well that, you know, I'm all for fragrance polyamory where you can wear it according to your mood, according to the occasion. You know, whether it's work appropriate or whether it's for a night out.

I think that part can also represent those different facets of your own personality as well and can bring that emotion back. So, you know, again, part of the sort of memory and emotional system. If you want to feel more confident, you kind of can trick yourself into feeling more confident with the right smell as well, for example. Fragrance polyamory. I am learning new things this Friday morning. Have you experienced that, Roshni, where you have smelt something or had a fragrance that's transported you back to another time oh definitely yeah I'd say with many fragrances

with uh many just single notes as well for example whether it's lavender or um citronella as well what do they remind you of uh so for the for the lavender for me it's very much a childhood scent so we always had some growing on the walkway going up to our door and I'd always brush my hands in the lavender and then sort of smell my hands and feel kind of comforted and feel at home so it's still to this day when I smell lavender it gives me that sense of comfort as well. That's a lovely memory what about yourself Sally have you ever caught a whiff of something and then been transported back? I mean, the list is endless. I mean, most days that happens to me. But most recently, a few days ago, I got a new fragrance by Dior that's coming out next year.

And when I sprayed it on the blotter, I immediately could smell a hot bubble bath in my grandmother's house as a child. It had like a very particular steamy, steamy, hot bubble bath sort of a smell. And I just felt instantly comforted by it and sprayed it on immediately. We want to go where our mind goes if the memory is happy. And that's the joy of fragrance. You can recreate it to a degree. Yeah, such a comforting memory. Roshni, for you, we talk about creating smells and you actually do that.

You make, help people make their bespoke fragrances. Tell me about that process. That's right. So at Experimental Perfume Club, we've got our own branded scents that are still built in a way to experiment, layer up together and blend. But the other thing that we do is actually teach people to make their own fragrance from scratch. So that means that they can learn about the ingredients that go in,

really kind of going beyond just the look of the bottle or the celebrity who represents it and looking at what's in the bottle. And, you know, they can select their own ingredients based upon whether they like it or not, whether it's evocative or not, and build their own story around it as well. So that storytelling can then translate build their own story around it as well. So that storytelling can then translate into their own personal fragrance, which I think is really, really special and definitely means that nobody else will have that same scent. Yes, and that is exactly what some people are saying here.

They are getting in touch, you are listening. A message from Instagram here saying, yes, I make my own perfumes. Besides, fragrances can smell completely different on different skins so you'll never smell exactly the same as someone else. Is that true? Absolutely. That's not a myth is it? No absolutely so you can we can all be wearing the same fragrance you and I could be in the same room with the same fragrance and not have the same scent and that's because your own microbiome the things you eat your hormones will all affect your skin and how the fragrance responds to it.

So you might have certain notes popping out a little bit more than others on your skin. I was amazed that the messages that were coming in were people saying they've been wearing the same scent for 20 years, for 30 years. That seems to be a growing theme as I'm looking through the messages here. I mean, I think it was fair to say, isn't it, that perfume back you know years previous previous decades even it was seen as more of a luxury would that be true to say and perhaps now people are more likely to have multiple fragrances are we seeing a change in trends? I definitely have seen that a lot I think fragrance is less of just a luxury and more of a way of representing yourself so in the same way as you might have clothing, shoes, jewellery and makeup to represent different facets of you, now you have a fragrance wardrobe as well. So that sort of might be the

ones that you wear for different occasions or summer and winter. I'm sure Sally's seen that as well a lot. Yeah, Sally, what's your experience with that? Yes, certainly it's an extension of how you dress and how you represent yourself with your hair and so on. But it's not just that people are more used to having fragrance now, it's that back in the days that you're talking about, many decades ago, women weren't to buy perfume for themselves. They had to wait for

men to purchase it really it wasn't until Mrs S Day Lauder uh uh pretended that her perfume was a bath oil to enable women to buy it for themselves that the kind of sea changed and with a bit of help from Saint Laurent in the 60s but overall it was something that you had to wait for men to give you in this kind of elaborate bottle as a Valentine gift or a birthday gift. Whereas now, of course, most women buy their own perfume. You go off and browse for yourself. You have a little sniff for yourself. You decide what you like. You ask your girlfriends whether or not they tell you. It's up to them. But yes, of course, lots of us have perfume on our Christmas list. But many, many, many of us would just buy our own perfumes, either in duty free or in a department store, in a specialist perfumer or online.

And so that's been a huge that's been a huge change in perfume culture. And I think it's directly affected how fragrances smell. And speaking of gifting perfumes, as you rightly say, it is coming up to Christmas. And I'm sure lots of our listeners will be, if they're anything like me, lastminute.com and thinking, what can I buy someone? Oh, I'll buy them a perfume. Is it a good idea to gift someone a perfume? Particularly if you just don't know what they would like. How on earth do you start thinking about that, Sally? How do you know what would be the right perfume for someone? So you need to know that you need two things you need to know them very well and you need to kind of know your perfume so what i would suggest in a gift that i've given an awful lot is booking a redeemable consultation at a specialist perfumer shop so there are lots

on the high street pinhaligans joe mal that kind of thing, but also lots of independent ones like Les Santeurs who have multiple brands. And you can buy them a consultation and they can go along and just be kind of lost in the world of fragrance and be guided on a journey to find their signature scent and then your consultation will be redeemed against the fragrance.

And it's a brilliant present for people of all ages. I've sent teenagers for those consultations because it's a great introduction to the world of perfumery. And just quickly, Roshni, your one piece of advice for someone that wants to buy a perfume for someone else? I think it is, as Sally said, much more about the experience as well. So I think trying to find an experiential gift like a voucher or an experience like that to redeem against a fragrance is definitely a thing to do. And the other thing is also just to try different ones. So get a selection of slightly different scents

that you think would suit them. You know them best usually, their personality, whether they're bubbly or whether they're quite quiet. That can also really help. And do ask for advice as well. That's a really good idea. Okay, that's given me food for thought. I won't just nip to the high street

and buy the cheapest brand then for whoever I'm buying my perfume for. Thank you. You've given me lots to think about there. Roshni Danji and Sally Hughes. Thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour this morning. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started

like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, a warning that loneliness can be as dangerous to your mental and physical health as smoking and a lack of exercise. The British Psychological Society says loneliness should be treated as a public health emergency and is calling on the government to update its strategy to reflect the impact of the COVID pandemic and lockdowns. We'll be speaking to the British Psychological Society shortly, but first let's hear about a woman who experienced loneliness and was helped by an unlikely new friend.

77-year-old Liz Veach is a retired deputy head teacher whose husband died just before the lockdowns. She was introduced to 19-year-old medical student Ankita Menon via a charity called Kissing It Better. I spoke to them both a little bit earlier and Liz started by telling me what loneliness felt like for her. I have to admit, I thought after a lifetime, because I'm getting on a bit, that I'd done loneliness at various points. But I honestly can say I didn't really know what loneliness was till lockdown two. It was lockdown two that was the killer because lockdown one up to a point I've done everything you should and it was new and I was pretty lonely then but lockdown two I just moved into a new house and it had been a nightmare trying to sell and buy and everything during lockdown one and I'd sort of thought, well, phew, I'll be okay now. But I just could

not believe it. And my family had moved away. So I was a long way from the grandkids that had always kept me going, even particularly after my husband died. But it was suddenly like being inside a shell. I just didn't know who I was. I didn't know why I was there. I didn't know what to touch and where to go with how I was feeling. It was very odd. And yet at the same time, if I walked outside the door, I'd put the smile on my face and I'd go for a walk and I'd say hello. But it was coming back, opening that door and knowing that it was just me, just me. And also because my husband wasn't there and we'd been together over 50 years, there was nobody that knew me really well. Not well enough for me to say, you know what, I'm in tears here.

Because you couldn't say that. It what, I'm in tears here. Because you couldn't say that. It wasn't part of who I was. I'm this brave, I was resourceful. Yeah, I think you could say I was desperate to continue to be fiercely independent. And I think many people will relate to the fact that they put their smile on when they go out in public. Now, you mentioned your grandchildren being far away. You mentioned your husband passing away. Would you describe those as the triggers that brought about the loneliness?

So having been a passionate teacher, I think I could say, for all my professional life, and that was who I was. I was Miss Veatch, the teacher. And then I was granny and I loved all that and then I was a carer obviously it's not enjoyable because it's something you do but it makes you lonely in a sense that you have to be there and you have to be there for that person which means everything else falls off the edge a bit. So I had lost touch with people. But having moved and the kids moving away, which I encouraged and was the right thing for them to do, I just thought, gosh, who the heck am I?

And there were days when I thought, what is the point? And I honestly can say I didn't know what loneliness was. And I do now. You felt that way even though you had a pretty supportive family around you? Oh, yeah. It's nothing to do with other people in a way because my family were wonderful. I'd get little letters. I'd get phone calls. I was one of the fortunate ones.

But at the end of the day, they have their lives, and I wanted them to be happy. I wanted to be the one that was looking after them. That was my role. But I think it's about something much deeper than other people. It's about when you're that much on your own, you realize that actually you're lonely for the person you used to be. You're lonely for a sense of self, almost a sense of what the hell am I doing here?

And yet, you know, I must emphasize this point. People were so kind and good. People are there. They want to be there. That's not it at all. It's about at the end of the day you have to get through this one of the people who did help you is Ankita who Ankita I'd like to bring you in here um as a medical student you're 19 years of age and you were involved in these zoom chats with Liz so how did you first get involved?

So my teacher recommended it as a way of developing my communication skills. So really, it was essentially a means to make my personal statement more fancy, really. I didn't go in thinking, you know, I'm going to be doing this for the next four years, which I've been doing. But now it's something that's become such a regular and important part of my life. And it's blossomed into a connection, into a friendship. Give us an idea then of what actually happens during your Zoom chats, what things you talk about. So sometimes we're talking about, you know, childhood experiences and how they might differ, like compared to now versus then. Or, you know, they might be about current events

or holiday traditions, especially around this time of year, we tend to talk about, you know, the differences in how holiday traditions might vary. And Liz, why do you think it's been so successful? Why do you think this approach by the charity Kissing It Better has been so helpful? I think the one thing that I recall making a difference in the first place was somebody saying, we need another person who's quite articulate to join in a session. And I thought, having gone from thinking, oh, gosh,

I don't want to be needy, so I'm just going to close the door and sit in the bathroom for a while, which is what I was doing. So nobody thinks I need them, thank you very much. Suddenly I was needed. It was the other way around. And it was massive because I thought, oh, gosh. And I was terrified. Oh, really? Yeah, because I thought, what, gosh. And I was terrified. Oh, really?

Yeah, because I thought, what on earth am I going to talk to these people about? But there were teenagers, which was my age group when I was a teacher, and it was wonderful. I thought, oh, gosh, yes. But also they were interested in not me as granny or anything else. It was just a chance to say oh here I am. Yes yes so what have you found out about each other and Keita what have you found out about Liz? I mean I adore learning about how Liz would stand up to people who may have been

intimidating her when she was a head teacher especially like big you know tall lofty teenage boys who would quite you know literally tower over her but she'd you know managed to intimidate them and I just adore hearing about that. And Liz what have you found out about Ankita? I think the fact that she's so determined to learn not just her subject which is quite tricky but about life and about other people and she's interested in everything and about being a complete human being not just somebody who sits in the sixth form thinking about the grades they need to get into university. And now, how are you, Liz? Oh, I'm grand. Yeah, I'm grand. Because it was a turning point.

And it just got me to stop my nonsense, I think. And it wasn't nonsense, don't get me wrong, because I was desperately lonely. But that was about me. It wasn't about the people around me. It wasn't about family. It wasn't about friends. It was about the fact that I, as a human being, had lost my way.

That was Liz Veach and Keita Menon talking to me a little bit earlier. And listening to that was Julia Falconbridge, a consultant clinical psychologist from the British Psychological Society. Good morning. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. That must have been quite heartening to hear. Would you say that Liz's experience there was typical? People's experiences of loneliness are actually very varied depending on their life circumstances. But an awful lot of the components that Liz was describing

are, you know, very common. And I think Liz conveyed really well just how strong that feeling of loneliness is when you really get into that sort of position and how all-encompassing it is and how difficult it is actually on your own to get out of it yes I think you know it's great to hear you know such a positive story about intergenerational support systems which we're not very good at in our society you know we tend to close off you know older people meet with older people, you know, younger people meet with younger ones, that, you know, the strength of building intergenerational bonds, I think, you know, it's really a powerful mechanism. It is, and that's a relationship that they've built over years. And there is a difference,

though, isn't there, between loneliness and social isolation? There is. And if we're looking at this from a health perspective, you know, it's important sort of to think these things through a bit. Social isolation is it's a measure of the amount of social contact somebody actually has. And this can be the number of people that they meet, the number of people who are in their networks, but it's also about the number of people with whom they have very close relationships. And those things can actually are separate factors which are, you know, are interlinked. And there can be people who, on sort of an objective measure, they're actually quite isolated. They don't see many people or do, you know, much in the way of a social life. And they're actually really content with that. That's what they're happy to do. And there'll

be other people who appear on the surface to have loads of sort of friends and connections who describe feeling lonely, because there isn't the depth there to the relationships there aren't people who they feel really close to or or similar to so that you know they are they are different um but obviously very interrelated so why is it that the british psychological society are saying that loneliness should be treated as a public health emergency? It's a strong claim. It is, but it's actually an incredibly strongly validated public health issue across the world. The World Health Organization has got a lot of information on this there's been a lot of research over recent years and it's all consistent that actually

people who are lonely are 50% more likely to die prematurely than people with strong social connections. And this goes across a whole range of different physical illnesses, cardiovascular, diabetes, even cancer, dementia. All of these things, you know, are impacted by loneliness. And then, of course, you got the the mental health elements which is sort of thing that that Liz was describing there and in some ways they're more obvious to us aren't they you know because we all have days when you need times when you feel a bit lonely and you can imagine that actually if I was on my own all the time and lonely I'd be

feeling depressed you know I'd be feeling sort of really finding life hard. And we recognise that, although I don't think we recognise the depth in the way that Liz was describing it. But, you know, the things, they all intermix as well because if you've got health problems, you know, you're more likely actually not to be going out socially. If you're not going out socially, it expands your, sort of increases the risk of your physical health problems. If you're feeling depressed and lonely, you're likely not to be sleeping very well. Some people might start to drink more heavily because it's a way of

alleviating the, you know, the dark hours of the night. Yeah, and it can certainly spiral from there. So what do you want to see in terms of solutions? Well, I think one of the things is, as well, you have to recognise the complexity of this, because it's across the lifespan we talk about you know here with Liz an older person it's across children it's across working age adults older people the people we often think about it's also very different in you know if you in rural communities are more at risk coastal communities and people at different life stages. And again, Liz really exemplified this bereavement, moving house, having a fresh start in life in some way. These are all trigger points. So we know quite a bit about where the risk factors are.

And there's recently been a study done by Glasgow University, which actually looked at the different elements of social isolation. And what they found was the highest risk of all was people who didn't see family and friends at all. And they were at highest risk. help and support in this case. I think that's important because people will be listening, thinking, I can really relate to this and it can be a scary time. But just point people towards where they go for support. I think go and see the GP is the obvious first place. And GPs are doing a lot of social prescribing now, which means actually not just treating you with medicines, but actually treating you, helping you in your life. If you're a younger person to talk to somebody like your school nurse or somebody, you know, a teacher that you can trust. And actually, if you've got family and friends, they probably don't realise how you're feeling. Pluck up your courage, tell them how it is, and then they can try and sort of support you with it.

But I think, you know, the wider thing and what the British Psychological Society is calling for is around this government strategy. If you've got a few minutes, I'll just sort of explain that. You know, the government strategy was developed in 2018, which was a world first, but it really needs updating because COVID has increased these these problems very significantly and very significantly for people with health problems yes and i was aware that the british psychological society had called on the government to update its strategy um i'll come to the statement from them but julia falcon bridge thank you very much for coming on to women's hour consultant clinical psychologist at the British Psychological Society and a spokesperson from the DCMS has said

in 2018 the UK was the first country to appoint a Minister for Loneliness and publish a strategy to build a more connected society. Since then we have invested over 80 million pounds into community projects focused on tackling loneliness. And we've reached millions of people through our national campaign to reduce the stigma. As the evidence around the nature of social connections continues to evolve, we have set out new commitments to tackle loneliness post-pandemic.

This includes commissioning research to explore how young disabled people experience loneliness. Thank you for that statement. And thank you to Julia for coming on to Woman's Hour. Now, how about some more live music? A Friday treat for you all and the ideal way to end our final live show of 2023. All-girl retro band and vocal harmony group Elle and the Pocket Bells have joined me again in the studio. Hello, ladies.

You would have heard them open the programme with an a cappella version of White Christmas. But now we get to chat to you as well. Chloe, Michaela and Elle, gorgeous voices that you have. Oh, thank you very much. What an opener to the programme. And you too. We're listening to you present, Anne.

Oh, stop it. Stop it, stop it. Now, I know that the band started in 2011, was it? How did you all come together, Al? So Michaela and I met while we were studying at drama school. We went to Central School of Speech and Drama. And obviously we acted together and we also sang in a choir. And we're both altos.

So we would stand together in the choir and we just found it so funny that I'm really tall and she was really petite next to me and we had to make something of that and you know we were just fresh out of drama school we wanted to earn some money so we formed a function band and that's how Elle and the Pocket Bells was created. And of course everyone knows you need an Irish member so she was immediately in she didn't have to audition or anything. That is brilliant. And as soon as you walked into the studio, I'm just taken aback by your look. It's very distinct. It's absolutely fabulous. Describe it to people that are listening. They can't see you. How would you describe it? Because the aesthetic of a band is just as important as how they sound these days. Yes, definitely. I agree with that. And we have taken a long time to perfect our styling and the branding of our band. I mean,

today we're in red vintage dresses and we've got Santa boots. Obviously, it's festive. So Christmas is a different thing. But normally, we go for a modern retro look. We started out very traditional, didn't we, girls? Yeah. We were inspired by the music of the 40s and 50s. So we were dressing similar to how the Andrew sisters might have dressed. But as we've grown and started writing our own music, we have changed the way we look. We've gone more contemporary. We've discovered these incredible vintage reproduction brands such as Collective Clothing, Vivienne of Holloway, Pretty Dress Company and what they do is they take elements of the vintage style and make it modern and like the shaping of the dresses they're just really flattering to women

so I would say go and have a look at these companies. Honestly, they're great. They fit our bodies lovely. And absolutely. And as we've grown and we've evolved and, you know, with the modern look sort of changing with us, we just feel it reflects our personalities more authentically. And just we've sort of grown into it, haven't we? Yeah, we've made it more fun. We just take a little element and then make it contemporary.

And it's working. You've recently signed a new deal. Is that true? It is true. Congratulations. It must be exciting after more than a decade together to have this record deal now. It must be such an exciting time for the group. Oh, it's so exciting.

Just to be signed by Freshly Squeezed after all this time together, it's just kind of a dream come true, really. And getting to make music videos and getting our look and our sound out there has has been fabulous so if you do want to see any check out our youtube l and the pocket bells and yeah let us know what you think oh my goodness how exciting and i know you've got a new single out that comes out next week that's a on the 29th of december yes uh that is released it's

called old fashion just tell me quickly about what that song involves, the lyrics and the content of it. Oh, yes. That's a very jazzy, sultry number. We wanted to write a song, kind of a play on the words of the cocktail, the old fashioned cocktail. So, yeah, there's some tongue in cheek words and it's a beautiful song.

Beautiful. And you enjoy performing together. I can tell by the way that you interact with each other. You enjoy each other's presence. Well, I mean, we've been friends for years, haven't we, girls? Yes, very much. And therapists to each other. That's wonderful.

Absolutely. That's absolutely brilliant. Thank you to everyone for listening. Thank you to Elle. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. Thank you to Elle and the Pocket Bells. That was absolutely brilliant.

I'll be back with Weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow. Merry Christmas to everyone celebrating. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. To know what it means to be Roman, you need to look beyond the sweating gladiators. There are fresh stories to be told from scattered clues and new discoveries.

I'm Mary Beard, and I'll be uncovering these stories for Being Roman, a new series for BBC Radio 4. There's a young bride avenging the murder of her parents and an emperor flirting outrageously with his nervous teacher. Listen to Being Roman wherever you get your podcasts. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.