Woman's Hour - A scheme to help Afghan refugees like Amir housed in hotels up and down the country to access swimming and fitness facilities.

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

We talk to an Afghan family housed in one of the many hotels which have become home for thousands of others like them. Many families and children often struggle to exercise which has an impact on their physical and mental health. BBC producer Sue Mitchell a keen swimmer is working with them to enable them to be able to make use of hotel and local authority swimming pools to to help them while they wait for news about permanent accommodation, benefits and education.With COP26 being held in Glasgow next week we talk to investment director, Maike Currie to talk about why sustainable investing matters more to women than men, and how you can invest to save the planet - and make it a better place.In the second of our series, our reporter Milly Chowles looks at toxic relationships and talks to Jo who felt compelled to always seek out ups and downs and drama. And we talk about late life libido with Scottish storyteller, Marie Louise Cochrane and sex expert Tracey Cox.Presenter: Chloe Tilley Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Duncan Hannant.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Chloe Tilley. Welcome to Woman's Air from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now, the distressing images of Afghans crowded at Kabul airport, desperately trying to leave the country after the Taliban takeover, was an image that dominated our TV screens back in August. Well, by the end of that month, thousands of Afghans that had worked with UK forces were flown out of the country to start a new life in Britain.

Now, two months on, many families are facing the reality of living in hotels for months on end. Young families living in cramped conditions with no money or job, waiting for the government to find them permanent accommodation. Well, one of these families is going to be speaking with us this morning about their journey out of Afghanistan, the challenges of living in a hotel long term, and also about a new initiative to provide swimwear and equipment and access to swimming pools to help their mental health,

to help them take part in exercise and, quite simply, to fill their time. We're also going to be looking at a government drive to get more pregnant women vaccinated. Only 15% have been fully vaccinated. I'm going to be speaking to a woman who chose not to get her COVID-19 vaccine while she was pregnant. She says because of mixed messaging,

but we're also going to be joined by a doctor to give us the facts. If you've been listening throughout the week to Woman's Hour, you'll know that we've been speaking about the COP26 climate summit, which is starting on Sunday in Glasgow. Today, we're going to be looking at investing in green companies, how it helps to save the planet, and whether it makes financial sense. We'll bring you part two of our series on toxic relationships, hearing from another

woman who now understands why she keeps getting caught in the same loop of being attracted to and getting caught in a destructive relationship. And we're going to look at an issue suggested by one of our listeners, emailed in to say how she had rediscovered her libido in her late 50s during lockdown. Now, if this is something that you've lost, stay tuned. We're going to have tips. We're going to have advice later on in the programme. But this morning, we want to hear how age has affected your libido and also your sex life,

whether it's in a long-term relationship or a new one. Have you hit a rut? How has your sex life changed over time? Can it be reinvigorated in a long-term relationship? And if so, how? Tell us your secret. Or has it been a new relationship that has changed your view of sex? Do get in touch with us this morning.

You can text us on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can, of course, get in touch via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. But let's begin by talking about the thousands of refugees who are being housed in temporary hotel accommodation up and down the country after fleeing from Afghanistan in August. Most had to leave without possessions and they're now adjusting to life in the UK as best they can.

Many of the hotels where they're staying have swimming pools and gyms, but the new residents obviously don't have the necessary equipment. Well, BBC producer Sue Mitchell runs a swimming club in South London in her spare time, and she has begun collecting donated swim kit to help the refugees. Now, she met Zahra and Ahmed, who are parents to Amir, who's three, and Zina, who's six, while she's been recording about life in the hotel for Radio 4. Now, I'm pleased to say that Sue's with us, but also Zahra and Ahmed. Good morning to you all. Good morning. Good morning, Ahmed. Good morning to you all. Good morning. Good morning, everyone.

Good morning, everyone. Zahra and Ahmed, thank you so much for talking to us today. Ahmed, I wonder if I can take you back to when you were in Afghanistan and trying to get out. I know you were working in Kabul. You had to get out at pretty short notice.

Just tell us about that struggle to get out at pretty short notice just tell us about that that struggle to get out and the journey to Britain. First of all thanks for having us here in this radio program I was working in Kabul with one of the international organizations. So we had to leave on a very short notice. This whole disasters, the mess started that happened so quickly that we had to leave quickly... urgently and... we had a harrowing journey... to... to make it here. So... it was a horrific journey... so we still have... nightmares from that journey. ... We... attempted four times... and... on the fourth time we were succeeded that we made it to the

airport to the Varen Hotel. We made it through the stampedes, the gunfires, the bombs and it was a horrific experience for my kids. I can see you're both getting emotional talking to me about it. And I'm sorry to make you relive it. But I just think it's so important that people understand the trauma that you've been through. More importantly, how are you now and your children? How are you coping? You said you have the nightmares.

Yes, we still have nightmares. We are getting some therapy from some doctors. It's been... because we still have those nightmares and we can't sleep and we that's that's that's been going on through our minds and and now specifically that we are here we we are facing so many challenges here that includes you know being isolated from the community, living in one room. And it's been a challenge for specifically for women. I wonder, Zahra, I know that you're looking for language classes to have here in the UK. And I appreciate that English is not easy for you but I wonder if you are able to explain a little bit about how difficult it is for you right now living in a hotel

and feeling isolated. It is very difficult to live in a hotel. Yes, we have... ... ... We have many problems. Yes, we have many problems with language, because we don't know much English, to explain our problem,

with people or with someone else. Therefore, we want to have some classes of English here for women to learn some English and some social activities also to

have some social activities to keep us busy. To keep us busy. Of course, because I can imagine sitting in that hotel room, you talk about that isolation, the days must be very long and difficult to keep your small children, who are remarkably quiet, I have to say, so well done for keeping them quiet while we're on the radio.

But how difficult is that, having your children and being cooped up in the hotel? Ahmed, you can respond. Sorry, I mean, you don't have to. Between the two of you, just explain how you're feeling. It's been a challenge for us. Currently, they are quiet because we had to bribe them with a mobile phone. They are busy with their mobile phone.

Good plan. It's not that quiet. So they are specifically like they don't have any place that they can go to play and be around with other kids in this hotel. So they are all stranded in these rooms. ... Also... when... we arrived here, we had... so many challenges. But we, we... thank... the community here. We arrived here... with no clothes, nothing with us. ... The community, the people here, they have been wonderful.

They have been helping us. We also would like to thank the local councils. They are helping us in these difficult circumstances. And so, one of the issues that we are facing, another issue that I could say, is the food here. The food that they feed us, you know, our food varies from other countries in the region that we live in, in Asia.... So, as food here, that they provided us, is very spicy, and there are many spices, different ones, and that's our digestion system, that hasn't used to those spices. ... Even though there are afghan hotels but still

you know they we asked the hotel that could you help us with that and provide us some afghan food but they they wouldn't listen to us the foods they provided to, usually has fungus on it, it's rotten, and I found maggots and salad. So I think we have been given some leftovers from other days. So that's an issue for women. Of course, and I'm sure, to be honest, the hotel would not want that food to be given to you. I mean, we haven't heard from the hotel would not want that that food to be given to you i mean we we haven't heard from the hotel regarding the food listen both of you stay with us because i want you to carry on talking to us and sharing your experiences i just want to bring sue in as well to get a sense sue

of this story that we're hearing from zara and ahmed their experiences since arriving in the uk is this typical for many families who have escaped from Afghanistan? Unfortunately, it is. I mean, we took in about 15,000 people in a very, very short space of time. And the rallying call went out to hotels and bids were made to house people. It was never really seen as a permanent move. And obviously, many people coming here, they're so happy to be safe. So initially, the relief and the feeling of safety is all-encompassing. But the reality is, as the weeks drag by, that people are going to be in these hotels,

and it's likely they're going to be in them for many months. And the hotels I've been visiting, some of the atmospheres are quite oppressive. Some of the Manchester, Yorkshire hotels, there are guards on the corridors, mainly to stop the children running around the corridors. But the reality is there's no play areas for children. And it was a funny thing that going into the hotels, I noticed they do have leisure facilities. A lot of them do have pools hotel pools that families could

use obviously they've got no equipment nothing they can access the pools with they've got gyms but again people were given nothing to sort of go to the gym with and there's very little being done to try and integrate people very few of the children got school places it's really hard for the women who really want to sort of be learning English and integrating. And integration starts the day you arrive in this country. That's the really important message here. Integration, being part of life here. People want to be here.

They want to set roots. These are people who've had such trauma in their life. And we should be doing everything we can. And if that comes down to people volunteering and helping out we just thought of one small initiative we could do to help but really there are infinite possibilities and a lot there could be much more vision about how people's lives are going to shape be shaped in the months that follow because rehousing people into permanent accommodation is going to be a very very slow process indeed.

Well, Ahmed, can I bring you back in on that? Because when Sue's there talking about integration, I'm just wondering, are you able to work? Do your children have places at the local school? Have you had an update on that situation? Unfortunately, right now we can't work. We were introduced to the local job centers here. I talk with them if I can get a job here. But they advised us that since you

don't have a permanent address, we don't advise you to get a job here. So that's a challenge for us. So we are, our future is lingering here. We are not doing anything. You just, we are stuck here. So far only few families have been moved from this place. We are in tens, but families that have moved so far, I think three or four families.

So you don't have any information on when you may get some permanent accommodation? No, we don't have, unfortunately. So that's a big problem for us, for our kids, for our future. So as we don't know how long we will stay here for. And on the other, the other thing is that we can't socialise with the people, with the local community here. We are all stuck in these rooms. So you're not allowed to go out?

We can go out, but we don't have many activities. We don't know what to do, especially it's hard for new arrivals. They don't know what to do, especially it's hard for new arrivals, they don't know,... you know, like what they can do here locally, ... what kind of activities there are available for them, that they could join and... socialize. ... Also... we were, but we were lucky here in this hotel, that our kids joined school here locally. But according to Sue that I talked with her,

she said that there are lots of kids that they still can't go to school. So your kids are in school, which is great. I mean, I'm wondering about this initiative that Sue's basically pulled together in a spare time of getting swimming things for families. People may say, well, you know, you've got bigger problems, which you're articulating very clearly. But is it nice just to have an activity to do, to break up the monotony, if nothing else? Yes, I think it would be great to have some sort of other activities here. We appreciate help and support from people such as Sue. You know, the initiative that they are leading, that could help lots of rivals to recover from a trauma they have been through.

That's great. And we very much appreciate everyone's kind help and support in this process of resettling us here all in the UK. Well, listen, do stay in touch with us because we would love to know how you're getting on and follow you and hope that Zahra, you get to have some English classes,

some language lessons, which of course has been promised by the government as part of the Operation Warm Welcome. And I hope that your kids get on well at school. Do stay in touch with us. Thank you for speaking to us this morning.

Very grateful to you, Sue. Thank you very much. No, it's a pleasure. Take care. Sue, I mean, it's important to say, isn't it, you are just one person who's trying to make a difference, but there's loads of people around the country who are doing different things.

And we'll make sure that we direct people to our website if you want to take part. If you want to help out with this, you can go to the Woman's Hour website and there'll be more details there. Sue, thank you ever so much for joining us. Thank you. Bye. Take care. Bye-bye.

So that was Zahra and Ahmed. And Amir and Zina were running around in the background. I could see them on Zoom. They're in their hotel room having come to the UK from Afghanistan in August, just getting a real sense of what they are facing on a day-to-day basis. They are traumatised and they also are very much in limbo. And we also heard there from BBC producer Sue Mitchell as well. Now, continued mixed messaging is reportedly having a drastic impact

on the vaccination uptake amongst pregnant women. This is for the COVID-19 vaccine, of course. Members of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation are urging ministers to ramp up efforts targeting unvaccinated groups and say a particular focus needs to be given to pregnant women because only about 15% in the UK have been fully vaccinated. Well data from Oxford University's Embrace UK study on maternal health has shown 13 pregnant women have died from Covid since July. Around 85% of them were unvaccinated. We can speak now to Professor Asma Khalil,

who has carried out a recent study on vaccination uptake in pregnancy. It's from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. And Anna is with us. She's from Cardiff and decided not to have a vaccine in her pregnancy because of mixed messages. Anna, let me begin with you. That must have been a real battle in your mind as to whether to have the vaccine. Just give us a sense of sort of what you went through as you agonised over it. Yes, well, I was about, at the time when

I was pregnant from August 2020 to May of this year, the message was that it wasn't safe. It wasn't encouraged to get the vaccine at the time. So there was not much talk with the midwife about it. It was just assumed that I wouldn't have it. And then towards the end of my pregnancy, I think around April maybe, the advice changed. And they were then encouraging ladies to get vaccinated. And just for me, it felt like, well, I've come this far without a vaccine. I wasn't fearful of the virus myself anyway, because I'm generally in very good health.

So I just felt, oh, you know what, I can wait until the baby is born and have the vaccine straight away after that. And that's what I did. And I was slightly fearful of the side effects of the vaccine and feeling, gosh, I don't want to go into labour. Just, you know, having to deal with the side effects of the vaccine. It's enough going into labour anyway. I wanted to be focused on that. So, you know, that was one of the reasons why I decided to wait. Let me bring in Asma because I think it's important, Professor Khalil, that we get the facts today.

Initially, pregnant women, it wasn't clear whether they should get them. So there was the advice not to. Then that advice changed. So bring us right up to date on the current advice. Yes, you're right that the initial advice for pregnant women was not to receive the vaccine, but that was because the initial COVID vaccine trials did not include pregnant women. And therefore, we did not have any safety data of giving the vaccine during pregnancy. But things have changed. And now we have data from a very large number of pregnant women,

more than 300,000 pregnant women that received the COVID vaccine. A lot of this data comes from the United States, from Israel, from Canada. And now we are getting data from the UK as well, where we know that the vaccine is effective. It's the best way to protect the pregnant woman and the baby. It's also safe. We know that the vaccine does not cause the risk of miscarriage, does not increase the risk of stillbirth,

does not make you go into labour early. And therefore, the advice has changed, the fact that we should advise pregnant women to consider getting the vaccine. And that's the case in the UK. And even in the United States, the CDC have now recommended COVID vaccine to pregnant women. And I'm also reading evidence which says there is a greater risk of becoming seriously ill as a pregnant woman compared to a non-pregnant woman of the same age.

So when you are pregnant, there is a greater risk to you of COVID. And that in itself is also another reason to get vaccinated if you're pregnant. Yes, that's true. If you are pregnant and you get COVID, you are twice as likely to need admission to the intensive care unit, to require mechanical ventilation, and not just the pregnant woman so that the risk of having more severe illness but also the baby so she's twice as likely to deliver early preterm and delivery or preterm birth and we know prematurity is associated with the risk of disability so also increase the risk of developing high progression pressure in pregnancy or requiring caesarean delivery. And also there is increased risk of stillbirths, which means a baby dying during the pregnancy.

Anna, for you, you decided not to have the vaccine because you were in the latter stages of your pregnancy. What about other friends or family members who are pregnant? What have they decided to do have many of those had a vaccine um yes well um yeah like you say i have got many friends who are pregnant at the same time as me and um it was a similar feeling i suppose they were towards the latest stage of their pregnancy friends who i i know who have since had children all waited until they'd had their baby to receive the vaccine. I think it's maybe the side effects. And at the end of the day, when you're pregnant, it's the welfare of your baby that you're most worried about.

And at the time when there was not enough information, maybe to say that it's perfectly safe for your baby to have this. In fact, now what we're saying is it's actually safer for you to have the vaccine whilst you're pregnant than to wait and run the risk of catching COVID unvaccinated and pregnant. That's obviously what the evidence is showing. So I wanted to ask you what might have persuaded you, but it seems that you've answered that, that it was actually you felt you had a lack of information.

So if you had your time again now and you were pregnant now, would you go and get the vaccine? Yes, exactly. I think I would, yes, because even though, like I said, I'm generally a healthy person and I'm not fearful of the virus, you know, so I wasn't in a mad rush to get the vaccine, if you like. I think I would get it because we don't know, do we, who are the people who are going to get ill from COVID and seriously ill or, you know, the worst case scenario that something happens to you or your baby. So the best advice is if it's right for you to go and get it.

And there's several other factors as well that affect your decision, isn't there? You know, your health in general, your attitude towards the virus. A lot of different factors affect your decision isn't there you know your health in general um your attitude towards the virus a lot of different factors affect your decision at the end of the day not just the evidence you know so it's a personal choice i'm that's what i'm saying but of course the most important thing is to go and speak to your midwife speak to health professionals get the information arm yourself with information and make an informed decision thank Thank you both for your time this morning.

That was Anna, who's from Cardiff. She decided not to have a COVID-19 vaccine when she was pregnant. There was mixed messages, but she says if she had her time again now with the information given, she would. And we also heard from Professor Asma Khalil, who is from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. Now, later on the programme, we're going to be talking about libido in later life and I'm asking you this morning to get in touch with your experiences. Has your libido got less after the menopause? What's your sex life like? If you need advice and tips we're going to be talking about it later on but so many of you getting in touch thank you ever so much. Let me

read you this one. Jane says I haven't had sex with my husband for years. Since lockdown I've moved into the spare room which is better for both of us sleep-wise. I have no interest in sex to the point that the thought of it actually disgusts me. Maybe menopause after having kids late, partly just wanting autonomy over my body after two children, breastfeeding, maybe stress and depression. Also, my body disgusts me. I'm a bit overweight and the muffin top tummy. I'm not actually sure I want my libido back. Jane, please stay tuned. Listen to the conversation sure I want my libido back. Jane,

please stay tuned. Listen to the conversation we're having later on the programme. It may well help you. Emma says, I can't imagine anything worse. Last time I had sex was about five or six years ago. I feel totally liberated to be able to sleep at night, free of the dread of having to go through the motions just to keep my husband satisfied. I've been married for 22 years and frankly feel that enough is enough my body is my body i have absolutely no interest in being intimate again good luck to the woman who found her libido again i'd much rather go for a 10 mile run through country lanes and i guess the point is there emma is if you're happy not to have it and your husband's happy not to have it then that's all fine isn't it it's all personal choice and chris says my libido fell off a cliff edge six

years ago and as long as the menopause rages I can't see it coming back whenever I discuss symptoms of the menopause with other women going through the same thing it's never mentioned it's like it's something to be ashamed of and it makes you less of a woman well we will be talking about this later on if you want to share your experiences this morning it's at BBC Women's Hour on social media or you can text us on 84844 now head of the climate conference COP26 which which is starting in a few days' time in Glasgow, we have discussed this week on the programme what we can do ourselves to tackle climate change, whether it's cutting down on red meat consumption, insulating your house or driving an electric car. But another area to think about is green investments.

Women are reported to be more concerned about climate change than men. So we can talk about that and also what companies offer sustainable investment. We can speak now to Micah Currie from Fidelity International, who also writes for the Financial Times. Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Chloe. Hello. Hello. First of all, how easy is it to find out if a company is effectively a green company, that it's sustainably investing? Well, what investors typically look at is something called ESG rating. So ESG stands for environmental, social and governance factors.

And simply put, it is about investing your money with a consideration about the wider implications. Now, as you mentioned, with the climate emergency top of the agenda, social injustices, and really how companies are managed, investors, when they save or invest, are thinking very long and hard about the impact their money is having. Is it doing more good than harm? Now, there's countless pieces of research that has actually shown that for women, this matters more. Women, of course, are concerned about financial performance, but equally, beyond the bottom line, they want to know if their money

is doing good, if it's making a positive impact. And when they look at companies, they look at how they stack up in terms of the impact on the environment, how they impact the social equality, things like how they treat their employees, what their gender pay gap looks like. And, of course, corporate governance is very, very high on the gender. Why is it generally that women are more concerned with this than men? Well, I think it's fair to say that for a lot of people it matters. But I think when women look at money, it's not just about outperformance, about results.

It's also about doing good. And the interesting thing is a lot of women don't think of themselves as investors. But if you are in a pension, which most of us in formal employment in the UK will be, then you are an investor. And while we do a lot of things in our day-to-day lives as a consumer, as you mentioned, taking shorter showers, recycling, eating less meat, taking the train instead of the plane, all those things we are doing to help the environment, the most powerful thing you can do is by investing, by looking at where your money is investing. And if you are in a pension, you are an investor.

Trillions of pounds are invested in pension funds. And research has shown if you look at where that money is invested and you possibly switch it to a greener investment, that can be 117 times more effective than someone making the decision to limit themselves to one return flight a year. So it is really, really powerful to understand where your money is going and what impact that is having on the environment. So it can have an impact on the planet. But what about in your pocket? If you're talking in raw financial terms, if you're investing in a greener company, are you going to get more money back in the long term? Well, it's a really good question because one of the enduring myths around ESG investing

or sustainable investing has been historically that to do good, you have to sacrifice performance. And what the pandemic specifically has shown is that that is a myth, because during the height of the pandemic, it was those companies that rated highly on ESG metrics or factors that actually outperformed. Because in many ways, if you think about this logically, ESG sustainability really is a proxy for being a good quality company. If a company cares about the environment, if it cares about social equality, treating its employees fairly, and if it's diligent about corporate governance, it will be around for the longer term. It tends to be a higher quality company. And we know that investing is a long-term game. So you want to be in those companies that are going to be around in 10 or 20 years time. So if people are listening right now and say, yes, this is what I want to do, it can be a bit overwhelming starting. So what is a good starting point? Where should you look? What should you do? So the first thing to realise is that your pension has power. If you are in a

formal employment, you have a pension, find out where that pension is invested. Speak to your scheme provider, look at the ratings on that fund, the default fund where your pension might be invested. Equally, start investing. You can start investing with as little as £25 a month in a stocks and shares ISA. And when you invest via stocks and shares ISA on a platform, there are countless ESG funds that you could align to your values, that screen out companies that do harm, such as companies involved in arms deals or tobacco or fossil fuels. Equally, there are funds that do positive screening. So they include the companies that do good. So there's a whole spectrum of ESG investments.

They're all out there. Obviously, the clue is often in the name of the fund. So, you know, as an investor, if we embrace investing and if this is important to us, we can do so much more good for the climate, for the environment. Listen, thank you ever so much for speaking to us this morning. Grateful for your time. That is Micah Currie from Fidelity International, also writes for the Financial Times, telling us how we can get involved in investing in green companies. Now, this week, we are looking at relationships and in particular, patterns within relationships.

When you look back, do you see those? Well, our reporter Millie Charles does. And in the second of a series about damaging relationships, she talks to women who now understand why they kept getting caught in the same loop. As someone who's in recovery from addiction myself, a real theme in my life and that of many of my friends is the addictive nature of relationships. It's something that often really comes to the surface when you get clean and sober.

And breaking free from a toxic relationship for some people can feel as hard as getting off drugs or booze. It shares so many of the same hallmarks, denial, withdrawal, craving and then for many, believing the lie that this time it will be different and relapsing sometimes over and over again. Jo is several years clean and sober and she told me about her first relationship in recovery with a fellow recovering addict that started, as so many do, after a recovery meeting. I knew John from the meetings that I went to. We connected because of a bereavement and we were kind of friends and things kind of developed quite quickly from then.

It was pretty unhealthy from the beginning because he sort of bombarded me with communication. And I was, you know, I hadn't dated for a while. So I was quite sort of green, really. And I was quite naive about the whole thing and sort of found myself in this liaison that was very kind of heavy and intense from the beginning. And why hadn't you dated for a while? I hadn't dated for a while because I was on a recovery path. I took time out to focus on myself. I knew that I was making choices that weren't really very good for me and I was getting into quite toxic relationships. And I'd been through so much pain and difficulty. It felt like the right thing to do.

I was done. I needed a break. So how sober were you or how long had you been sober at that point when you met John? I was a year and a half sober, I think. Tell me a bit more about that, how that unfolded. I knew from the very beginning that it wasn't right for me. I didn't necessarily trust him and it sounds strange to say that, you know, getting into a relationship with someone. I didn't necessarily trust him. And it sounds strange to say that, you know, getting into a relationship with someone that you didn't really trust and that you felt also a bit afraid of. It was a kind of roller coaster, really.

Why did you get into the relationship then? What was the thing that drew you in? It was the summertime. I tried a bit of online dating before and that hadn't really gone anywhere. It felt quite boring and my self-esteem wasn't that good so suddenly this you know quite big character came into my life and was sort of showering me with compliments and and making me feel like I was very important to him and that felt very compelling the fact that he was from a very different background you know he'd been in prison he'd been homeless he was a very different kind. He'd been in prison, he'd been homeless. He was a very different kind of person to one that I'd ever dated before. So it all was very sort of romantic,

I guess, and compelling. How did the relationship come to an end? I mean, unfortunately, the relationship descended into harassment. Yeah, the relationship ended because I was very afraid and I knew he wasn't well. When I was trying to end it I was afraid that he would come and find me and was quite scared so I contacted the police. I had worked out from his communication which I increasingly saw as very manipulative that he was a compulsive liar and he would threaten to kill himself, harm himself. He wouldn't be contactable for long periods of time and so I blocked him out of my life. After that relationship ended with John, how were you left?

I was left feeling quite numb. I felt a lot of shame actually. I felt shame that I had caused this horrible situation where I felt unsafe and pretty much kept it to myself. I didn't really tell family and stuff because I felt shame and I was still quite scared. I think I felt quite a big burden of responsibility, which is a hallmark of people in abusive relationships, isn't it?

So I felt like it was kind of my fault, really. And what was the process of rebuilding yourself, I guess, or kind of coming back to yourself after that? It took a few years, to be honest. I mean, and it wasn't the last unhealthy relationship I had. Unfortunately, I had another relationship that was no, not as scary, but pretty scary. So I had to kind of have a few more bad experiences, I think, to really up my game, I guess, with my recovery in terms of improving my decision making around relationships. Yeah. Tell me about the other situations that happened. Quite similar in the sense of quite controlling, quite a lot of duplicity. Again, you know, choosing quite an unwell person to be in relationship with. Again, excitement, compelling, with again excitement compelling and that feeling of being needed and and and also you know I take responsibility for for choosing partners who were never going to necessarily provide stability

that I needed you know there was an avoidance within me I believe so it wasn't all their fault, you know, that second dramatic relationship was, yeah, very all consuming. And it really affected me, it affected my work. It was very obsessive, and lots of drama and finding out stuff and oh my god, and you know, but at the same time, there's sort of denial, like like this the capacity for denial and and disregarding certain red flags I suppose and because of the desire to keep the relationship going some kind of misguided notion that by just keeping going it will suddenly transform into a healthy relationship that I guess the idea that you can kind of love somebody into healthiness or something, but it doesn't work that way.

And what was the cost for you in that? Again, you know, feeling quite devastated. And not because I wanted to continue being with that person, but a kind of internal devastation like I'd let myself down and and again shame really. I was nearly five years sober you know and I was still getting into these crazy relationships. You said there was something in you an avoidance in you that was leading you perhaps towards people that couldn't provide what you needed. Can you talk to me a little bit more about that? I think for me, the avoidance is about not having to really reveal myself with somebody,

you know, somebody's got a lot going on and they're not very well and they're, you know, quite self-centered and controlling and they want you to be a certain type of person within the relationship, then you don't really have to show who you are. You don't really have to take any kind of emotional risks because you know the relationship isn't going anywhere. And it's quite an unconscious thing that I kept myself safe almost. And, you know, there's a lot going on on the outside a lot of drama and oh my god this is happening and that's happening but really I'm not I'm I'm staying hidden that's the kind of irony of it really both of the the relationships that you've described that happened

both of them in in your recovery uh whilst you were sober you described them both as unwell I'm taking that you mean mentally unwell would it be accurate to say that you were in some way sort of saving that person yeah definitely I think I did feel somewhat powerful in the role of being with someone that I thought that I could help or fix and that that person needed me in that way you know I don't want to be needed like that today I don't I don't want to be pedestalized or someone's rescuer I really don't think it's a healthy dynamic. Yeah because I guess if you're if you're rescuing someone there's hierarchy in that. So there's the rescuer and the rescuee, isn't it? And the rescuer is putting their hand down. So they're slightly above that person in a sort of ego sense. Actually, I relate to that on a personal level. But it's not something necessarily that you would have been doing consciously, I imagine. Something that maybe reveals itself when you start to look a bit more closely inwards. Definitely and I think other things that seem really appealing like that person's really

exciting or they're really good in bed or they're just constantly in contact with you and there's that sort of intensity that can happen with communication all that can sort of seem like you know that's those are the things that I want sort of seem like, you know, that's, those are the things that I want. And actually, there are some glaring aspects that just are really unhealthy, kind of a misguided idea that intensity, drama, excitement means love. I think that's also a societal thing as well. We're kind of conditioned to believe that. Fireworks, it'd be fireworks. EastEnders storylines, you know know I think that has a lot to do with it. So you've described how you felt at the end of that second relationship that was

similarly sort of emotionally absorbing and draining and you said you felt you know huge amounts of shame and self-blame. How did you move beyond that? I moved beyond that with I guess a sort of for me a sort of primal sense of I have to survive this I have to get through this this is not how life is supposed to be this is not how relationships are supposed to be and I was and am very fortunate to have lots of amazing friends and people that I know in recovery. So I had a real network of people that helped me and I really sought out help. I did certain courses. I spoke to really wise women about how to grow in areas that I needed to grow. So after that ended, did you stay away from relationships? Did you fall to the same traps? I took another period of time out from relationships, did some more work

on myself and then I got into another relationship that was wildly better and more healthy and that was a real game changer. That relationship didn't work out, we're still friends, you know, I'm in a good place. I feel like I've got the power of choice now to make good decisions and I'm not attracted to dysfunction in the way that I maybe was before. What kind of mindset were you going into that relationship with how is it different from previously? Before I used to sort of accidentally find myself in relationships so it would be quite unconscious. I had a period of considered dating before I decided whether or not I wanted to go out with that person. And did that include sleeping with them?

Yeah so I think it was about a month of dating just sort of going about things in a bit more of a reflective way. Do you think there is something in jumping into a sexual relationship with someone too soon that's perhaps compelling as well or can make you more vulnerable to making unhealthy choices? Definitely. It's a very powerful thing to connect with somebody sexually. It can be quite addictive. My experience as a woman is when I get sexually involved, I get emotionally involved, I get attached. And so it's very difficult to break away from a relationship once that's happened. In your previous relationships was there pressure to kind of be intimate with people sexually before perhaps you were ready?

Definitely but I would also say that I look back and I see how it was my desire to people please I guess and to like hold on to the guy by maybe getting involved a bit earlier than maybe I could have done. You've sort of described the rock bottom where do we go from here in terms of your your path to freedom from that compelling pattern? The path to freedom I think is rebuilding or finding for the first time a relationship with oneself. And I've definitely been on that journey. I look back at my years as a young woman and see that I was quite disassociated, I think, from myself. And obviously being, you know, in alcoholism and addiction and stuff, I didn't take care of myself. My experience is through taking time out from relationships, working on myself,

really following my passions and really sort of rebuilding that connection with myself. What I find attractive has changed. So I no longer find a hot mess attractive. It just spells pain to me. I'm not far off 10 years in recovery. It's taken me a long time. And that's our reporter Millie Charles speaking to one woman about a series of damaging relationships and what she's learned from them. Now there is an article on our website about how to build healthy relationships

and links to all of the stories featured in this series. Now have you ever rediscovered something important to you? Well one listener got in touch to ask us to discuss women finding their libidos later in life. We're going to have a frank conversation about this now so if there are little ears around maybe you want to turn the radio down or catch up with this discussion later via BBC Sounds. Well, in this email from one of our listeners, she said, I rediscovered my libido at 59 in a long-term relationship during lockdown. We've got two grown-up children. Our sex life had been pretty non-existent for many years, but I confronted how I felt and we became close again.

To my amazement, my libido returned. It was a bit overwhelming at first, but I was overjoyed to find sex again, and it has become very important to me. Well, to talk about this, we're joined by the author and sex relationships expert, Tracy Cox. She's written a book called Great Sex at 50, How to Age-Proof Your Libido. Also with us is the Scottish storyteller, Mary Louise Cochran. She performs stories and music.

They're based all around the stories that she's collected about women and sex and to help broaden conversations. Hello to both of you. Hi. Now, let me begin by reading you. We've been inundated with emails this morning on this, but let me begin by reading a couple of emails

which have come in to us, both anonymous. One says, I'm 58 and sadly find my sex drive is just fading away. I still love my husband very much and sex for him remains vital to our relationship. So I feel I'm letting him down, which makes me upset. I love to cuddle him, but that seems all my body is interested in these days. I wish I understood why and could do something to bring it back. And I've had a text here saying, I've had no sex life since the menopause hit. It's depressing and so not like me. My husband's so lovely, we get on swimmingly, but I can't bear the thought

of him even touching me. It's our wedding anniversary today and it saddens me that I feel more like a robot than a human. Tracy, lots of people getting in touch saying the menopause has been a bit of a turning point for them. How much myth, how much truth, how common is it for women's libido to really drop off around menopause? It is extremely common. And it is a fact that when you go through menopause, the three hormones that really help the sexual desire and sexual function all basically trickle down to virtually nothing. So that's testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone, and they affect desire, they affect lubrication, they affect sensitivity. So it is a fact that sex can become problematic post-menopause. But happily, there are solutions. And I think a lot of women, it makes me really sad actually listening to those emails, because most of those problems can be fixed. You just

have to be motivated to go and see your GP, go perhaps to a menopause clinic and find out solutions. Because a lot of it is, I mean, and a lot of it is attitude as well, in that if you really want to continue having sex, you will find the motivation to go to your GP and go to a clinic and find some solutions. And we also need to rethink the way we think about sex, because we're all very guilty of thinking of sex as penetration. And if penetration is incredibly difficult for you, which it often is, you need to move into full play focus sex which in fact is a lot better for women because of course that's when we get our orgasms.

Mary let me bring you in on this because I mean it's twofold doctors are quite busy at the moment with the pandemic so it's always going to be tricky isn't it and aren't we just a bit rubbish at talking about this generally I mean I'm wondering you've collected stories on this but generally we don't like to talk about this, do we, even with our friends? Well, exactly. And that's why I started my project, Red Velvet Revelry, because I was at a point in my life where I needed to hear some happy stories about sex from other women. And in the circles that I move in, I didn't really hear those stories because we weren't able to talk about them I think some of us I mean I'm 53 I think people of my generation we do not have permission to talk about sex to our friends and even very much to our partners. Is it important Tracey that we do

talk to friends and partners I mean you know if we think even about the menopause it's not that many years ago that people didn't even really talk about that. That is something we talk about more. So will it help us all if we start to talk about libido and loss of it as we get older? Of course it will. I mean, when you talk about things to your friends, you normalise things. I do think though, I mean, having written about sex for 30 odd years, it's so much better now than it was. I mean, no one mentioned menopause, no one mentioned older people having sex, God forbid, you would ever think about sex post the age of 50. And of course, we're all living longer now. So there's been a lot more attention paid to,

you know, we are living longer, but menopause is still a fact. And it does affect our genitals, and it does affect our sex drive. So I think it is better. But we really do need to get to a point where talking about our libido is the same as saying, you know, oh, we should back a bit sore. You know, it's a normal function of getting older. And the more we talk about it with, you know, in society and to our friends, the more normal it becomes and the more we can, you know, talk to each other. Well, how did you solve the problem? Well, I went this way and I decided to do lots more, you know, oral sex or, you know, mutual masturbation

or things like that. Solutions are there, but everyone's a little bit shy about asking about them. Let me read you a couple more messages which are coming, because I say we've had lots of them this morning.

Leslie is 55, says I'm in a new relationship with a 59-year-old man. We're both sexually attracted to each other and loving sex. I always have. Long may it continue. Catherine has also got in touch though on 84844 saying,

when I was 70, my libido totally stopped. My husband was 75 and we both agreed we were happy cuddling and kissing and neither of us wanted to have any more sex. Why is there this obsession to have a libido and sex in order to be happy? It's total rubbish. It's a wonderful freedom not to have sex anymore. And I guess, Tracey, the point here is it's about if you've both got the same libido, if both of you are happy not having sex, that's fine. But if you're different, what can what can you do?

Well, I mean, that's the whole thing is that sexist marriages do exist and they're more common than you think. I think they are incredibly common post-50. And if you've got together with somebody when you were 18 and you'd been together when you were 70, you know, you'd probably be quite happy to kiss sex goodbye. But I think when you've got one person who wants to hang up their skates and the other one doesn't, then you do have a problem and you need to look at options for that, which include low effort sex. Maybe you don't want to have penetrative sex or you might be happy to do something sexual to them. There are so many solutions. If we just stop thinking of sex as

intercourse and something that has to be a two-way street. And there really are many, many things that you can do sexually together that don't involve penetration. And that can be very low effort on one person's part if they don't have any desire anymore. This email's just come in. I'm now 81. My sex life has never been better. I've been with my current partner for around three years. He's 80. We talk a lot. We discuss what we like and what we'd like to do. We make love at least seven times a week. I'm exhausted just listening to that. That is impressive. Thank you for getting in touch. Mary Louise, I know that you had a kind of personal experience of rediscovery, if you like, with a kind of change of libido yourself.

Yeah, well, I mean, as Tracy was saying, if you've been in a relationship with the same person since you were quite young, then you have a pattern of communication and interacting which maybe doesn't change and develop, especially if you come from a kind of culture which makes it difficult to talk about sex. When I found myself single and 50, I had to look at all the things that I had learned about what sex meant for me and what I was supposed to do in sex and really think about it for myself. So when I entered a new relationship, then I was in a different place and I was able to talk about things and ask for things and discuss things that I just couldn't,

with the best will in the world, couldn't have done it before when I was younger. I had to have different experiences and I had to know that another way of doing things was possible, which is why I've been doing my project because I want women to hear about other women's experiences, which either is similar to theirs or different to theirs. So they can see that there is another option. But, you know, as Tracy says, I was definitely brought up with nobody over sex has 50. Why would you want to? if your communication and your relationship has got lots of painful things that have built up over the years then that affects your sex life it's not all about the sex it's not all about the menopause

I know you've been collecting these stories you've been doing these performances you've actually written a poem for us haven't you would you mind reading it to us it's called Ladies Who Like It. To say that you like it, it's a bit of a gamble. To say that you like it requires a preamble. Because sometimes you do, and sometimes you didn't. And sometimes you will, and sometimes you winnie. And sometimes you're wanton and wicked and wild. And sometimes you want to be held like a child.

Sometimes you'd rather a book from the shelf and sometimes you can't even fathom yourself. The key to success in your intimate life, whether you're single, a lover, a wife, is freedom of choice in the acts of your choosing, giving and taking, not winning and losing. Well, that's my opinion and yours may be other. So I welcome the chance to discuss and discover if it's only me who'd be rather excited to hear tales about sex for ladies who like it. Oh, I love it. Thank you. Thank you, Marie-Louise. And, you know, that is the point, I guess, isn't it? That it's all about the joy of sex and it's about how you make that work

within your relationship. And, Tracey, thank you for your tips this morning. And, Marie-Louise, thank you for coming on and speaking to us as well. So many of you getting in touch here. This is an anonymous text. I'm out of a 20-year relationship with a man and i'm now in a loving relationship with another menopausal woman and i have never

had better sex now it's not all about penetration we are proof that old dogs can learn new tricks and martha says i'm 70 i'm working full-time in good health all six children happily living abroad i was widowed after 40 great years, but five years ago, I met a much younger man who's now 40 and reluctantly started a relationship with him. But we have a great relationship, a wonderful sex life and are together in a very committed relationship. Thank you for all of your messages. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us this morning on Woman's Hour. It's great to have your company. We're back at the same time again tomorrow. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. It's great to have your company. We're back at the same time again tomorrow.

That's all from today's Woman's Hour. I hope you can join us again next time. Thanks for listening to the podcast. I'm here to tell you about Deadhouse. Deadhouse is a trilogy of immersive audio horror shorts by Darkfield and BBC Radio 4. Each of the three episodes, Bethlehem, Salem and Xanadu, takes a different look at the separation between mind and body, placing you in the centre of disconcerting environments that feel unnervingly real. So, if you like original horror, put

your headphones on, close your eyes and meet yourself in the Dead House. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme peak Danger.

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