Woman's Hour - A Woman's Hour Christmas mixtape

Episode Date: December 27, 2021

Emma Barnett looks back over her first year at Woman’s Hour, from holding those in power to account to hearing from women who found themselves in the most ordinary and extraordinary circumstances. Clemency Burton-Hill explains the choice she felt she was presented with after a brain haemorrhage. ‘Annie’ describes how home-schooling three children while trying to work made her feel that she was failing at everything. Lady Lavinia Nourse and Amanda Knox spoke exclusively about the experience of being cleared of the most serious crimes. Plus, knitting patterns as code and what can go wrong when you are being sawn in half by Paul Daniels.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme on one of those many days between Christmas and January when you probably don't know what day of the week it is. It's Monday, by the way. You're most welcome. What an audio feast I have for you today. It's Monday, by the first voice you're going to hear, and what a voice it is, with a fight every step of the way to reclaim it. Clemency Burton-Hill, an ex-BBC presenter now living in New York, was at work when suddenly her speech became slurred.

This was Clemmie's first broadcast interview, a year to the day after she collapsed after having a massive brain haemorrhage. She had only just started to put sentences together when she agreed to talk to me. So how do you relearn to speak? You just start at the beginning. For example, it's really interesting that you don't just get it back. Obviously, there are things that you do get back quickly, but say in the first sort of few months, it should make me so, so unbelievably frustrated. Like one day or even one hour, I could pull them off a word. And then like the next minute I couldn't so it's it's not a linear progression

my younger son is he was just one when it happened but he's now a top two so he is learning to speak and there are parallels in my language, but of course it's completely different as well because in my head, there's no problem with my speech. It's getting to the words, my speech impaired, and I hate the fact that that's how people describe it, like deficits and impaired. I mean, I know that people understand the word and the sort of language.

Surely there's a better word. I love that as someone who is battling with words you're still wanting the very best word for your situation you are nothing but consistently ambitious which which I've always respected about you Clemmie and I have to ask you this is somebody who has a great love and knowledge of music has music helped in your healing generally? I think there's two answers to that, if not many more. In a way, music has been, like my love of language, I guess, like the most amazing and motivating factor in my recovery. So yes, of of course I think this is sort of like physical benefit of music in my brain in my healing but it's actually sometimes just too painful and too raw.

I've been someone who my whole life have relied on music and not just classical music, all music. Sometimes it was too raw. I don't know why. I suppose it was like my former life, and then now there's this new reality. There was no pop song or like soul ballad or classical, you know, Bach or whatever.

There was nothing that could like be more than this new reality. You talk there about the rawness and I just wondered if you, and I know a lot of what you want to, and you're already doing in your answers and the way that you're being so honest with us. And a lot of what you want to do is about the positivity, the luck, the fortune that you have and still be here and be with your sons and be with your husband and have your family and friends. But it is also an incredibly dark thing that you have been through. I mean, literally the world went dark for 17 days a year ago. And I just wonder if you could take us as far as you would into the depths of that. I mean,

how has it felt when it hasn't felt lucky or something you could find the positives? Because you are someone who was racing around New York, a million miles an hour, with your family, with your friends, and the whole world to play for. It's been, of course, unbelievably sad sometimes and definitely difficult from a recovery point of view because it's, as everyone warned me recovery is not linear with a brain injury and I'm so used to and I think most people are like you, if I do this, then that will happen. Like, this doesn't work like that. Some days I literally had no words and I thought yesterday I could do this.

And I am someone who doesn't have faith in terms of like religious faith but um before I woke up of my coma I had the most extraordinary um experience I mean to make it easier to sort of explain, because I can't really explain. But I know absolutely that at that point, I was given a choice. This way, it's going to be very hard. Are you sure you want to go this way? Or if you go this one, it's going to be you go this one it's going to be very easy and it's going to be fine and I don't want it to sound like some people might like choose not to live and like I don't know no no I don't think it does sound like that but what you're saying is you

remember strongly there were two options open to you before you came out of your coma, somewhere in your subconscious. Yeah. And the way that could be just pain-free almost, and that would have been death, the end, or there's the other way, which is waking up and facing recovery. And it's going to be hard, but it's your choice. And the amazing thing was that I was given that choice. It sounds so weird and crazy, but it is what happened.

The reaction to that conversation was immense. And I am very pleased to report that Clemency is still making incredible progress and pushing the boundaries with her recovery. Well, not long after that interview, also in January, I spoke to the legend that is Debbie McGee, performer, dancer, magician's assistant, known for her work with her late partner, magician Paul Daniels. Why? To mark 100 years since magician P.T. Selbert first performed the magic trick of sawing a woman in half, of course. That date we all have in our diaries, right? But seriously, what does it feel like to be sawn in half? Debbie McGee. It's the noise, actually.

You know, I've been sawn in half, sawn through. The very first one that was 1921 was actually sawing through a woman. And that's where the saw goes right through you. And then the boxes are pulled apart and you can actually see the assistant's body in the middle. And so sawing in half is when they saw right through it and then they can split both halves. So that's the difference. But it's noisy. It's noisy. It's like being at the dentist yeah possibly worse but you've really as the woman you're doing such hard work aren't you

because you've got to contort your body sometimes you're not gonna you're not gonna I knew you weren't going to come on what I too much away. I knew you weren't going to, come on. What I say as a magician's assistant, you've really got to be able to focus and concentrate. Did Paul ever talk to you when he was sawing you in half? Did you ever have chats? I'm trying to imagine the conversations when these sorts of things are going on, or perhaps it's too loud.

No, we did. Never about anything to do with, you know, what we were having for dinner. I have to say we're much more professional than that. But one little story is, is there was a very famous singer called Frankie Vaughan. And Paul and I agreed to do an illusion that was like a soaring for a friend for his birthday party. And Frankie Vaughan and his wife, Stella, were sitting very close to the front. You know, and it was like dinner table situation, a cabaret. We were in the middle of the floor. Well, because it was for a friend, we didn't bother rehearsing it.

We hadn't done it for ages, but, you know, we knew we could do it. You know, Paul and I had worked together then for over 30 years. So it was kind of, you just felt it. But actually, of course, because we hadn't actually rehearsed it, there was one bit where Paul, all I'll say without giving too much away, Paul put a sword through at a time when he shouldn't have. And I was going, stop it, what on earth are you getting up to? And Frankie and Stella could hear us.

Hang on, I can't believe I'm going to ask this, but where did Paul Daniels put his sword? That remains to be a secret. I never did find out from Debbie McGee, but I'll always remember asking her. Now, a couple of very memorable dames graced us with their presence this year. Dame Eileen Atkins spoke to me in October about casually writing her memoir in biro in bed. And exactly a year after Boris Johnson delivered the instruction to stay at home, save lives and protect the NHS, we assembled three women of different ages, backgrounds and circumstances to discuss their experiences of being confined, for the most part, in the home.

Actor, author and straight talker Dame Sheila Hancock was one of them. How had lockdown been for her? Confusing. I'm terrified that the other two are going to say that they've learned French and how to knit and they've grown a garden and once had a baby. I've done nothing. I stood staring at the walls. I've gone upstairs and think, what am I up here for? I'm utterly confused and I've come to no conclusions except that we need a revolution. Sorry, what do you mean by that?

You can't just say that at the end and then not tell us a bit more. Well, I just think the one thing that I have discovered, which I knew already but I think a lot of people didn't, is the vast divisions in our country, the gross undervaluation of the people that have got us through this mess. And we've got to do something about it. It's no good standing on the step with a torch and clapping. That's nonsense. And I never do that. We've just got to get down to making our society work better. And we've got to start

making our politics work. I don't like decisions that are made for political reasons, as opposed to the welfare of the country, which is what's been happening a great deal of the time. Most of the mistakes have been because politicians didn't want to offend other members of their party. So that sort of thing, I want to see change. But me personally, I just want to have a coffee with my mates, because I know that being on my own has driven me slightly mad. I was a bit mad, but I mean, I know I'm really round the bend. Because there's nothing to take the edge off. No, and there's no one to get evil thoughts out of your head, confused thoughts out of your head.

Normally, you think, oh my God, I'm going to die, or my neighbour or my grandchildren are going to die if they go back to school. A quick discussion with a mate will make you realise that you're talking absolute rubbish. But I haven't had that. So things have got totally out of control. I think you will not be alone in that. And thank you for being so candid. It's really well appreciated here and also will be with people listening. Got a message here, which I think you'll be able to identify with from Liz in Aberdeen show, says, of course, I want my life back. I want bustling cafes, busy pubs where you jostle to get to the bar. I want live music where the venue is absolutely round.

I want the Edinburgh Festival. Do you think you'll go back, Sheila, to how you were before? Exactly. If we can. I'm actually quite scared of coming out. I'm so enjoying the fact that I am now wearing my dirty old trousers and I don't wear makeup and my hair is, I just cut bits off when it gets too long. I've quite enjoyed being slutty and I'm quite worried about having to look all right. Do you know, I look like a bad lady when I go out I'm looking at you now you look great no no well I've made the effort for you but when I go out I have a terrible woolly hat and a horrible coat and I do look I mean social services are

going to knock on the door eventually Dame Sheila Han. I don't think that's happened yet. And I have to say, her candour on the programme rightly went viral on social media after we came off air. Now, talking of lockdown, meet Annie. Full-time worker, full-time mother of three young children at home with a husband unable to work from home. She has been really struggling, but like so many, didn't want to complain about her lot during lockdown. And as she knows, plenty others have had it and have it continually a lot worse.

But she took the plunge and trusted us this year to help share her story during lockdown. And it struck a major chord with many of you. Annie isn't her real name because she didn't wish to be identified. And also she was worried about what her employer might say too. I started our conversation by asking how she was feeling. I go through a complete range of emotions every single day. And I said to you, Emma, I am kind of close here, so I do find it really emotional. I have times when I feel like I'm failing at everything at the moment.

I know I'm not being the best mum and I know I'm not doing the best at my job. And I have moments in the days when I do feel I've got this, you know, I can do this. And those moments are there as well. And I feel I feel proud that we are getting through this and we are keeping the kids at home so the NHS can do what they're brilliant at. I feel that kind of pride as well and I think I'll look back and feel that probably more but right now, every day and right now at this moment in time with the kids in the other room, it feels really impossible to juggle all these

kind of different priorities at the moment. I can hear the strain and the emotion in your voice. Yeah, I think it's a, I do have so many moments throughout the day when I just try and not to kind of cry because I think we have this thing and this pride where we don't want to, you know, once you go, you go and you've kind of got to hold it together. as I say for the kids in the other room for work for being on that call for everything else but just so emotional um about not feeling in control of anything anything that I'm doing and all this is kind of being slightly done to me and I know that's the same for everybody but um yeah just I think the emotion comes from just feeling like I'm pretty close to failing at all of this.

Big thanks to Annie there for feeling like she could share. Something else this year which has prompted a major reaction from you has been the debate over sex based versus gender based rights. In the past few weeks alone, Professor Kathleen Stock gave me her first interview since resigning from Sussex University after protests against her position. The BBC's Director of Nations came on air with me after the corporation pulled out of the Stonewall workplace scheme, citing concerns over perceptions of impartiality regarding women's and trans rights. And Nancy Kelly, the chief executive of Stonewall, also gave me her first broadcast interview since several other organisations, including the BBC, withdrew from its schemes. Those are long, detailed interviews, which you can hear in full on BBC Sounds.

But in September, I absolutely loved talking to the actor, producer and director, Michaela Cole. Also, a keen listener to Woman's Hour, I'm happy to report, so you are in very good company indeed. Her award-winning TV show, I May Destroy You, was a lockdown hit for the BBC, and before that, her sitcom Chewing Gum was on Channel 4. Now she's written a book, Misfits.

Writing hits for television might seem glamorous, but Michaela pulled no punches in our exchange, including how she found herself alone in Zurich without the cash to buy canister or chips. When you write, sometimes the cash doesn't flow like other people's jobs, so you don't get weekly or monthly pay. Sometimes you're not paid for six months and so yeah I ended up in Zurich unable to afford canister when I had thrush and fries and I also remember looking at a tomato and I think the tomato was like what currency did they use there's a euro I don't even remember but it was like two of whatever those things were And I did the math and it was something like three quid for a tomato.

And I was just like, I had to cut that trip short because I literally just couldn't afford to stay there. Which is just again, though, you know, apart from the fact I'm concerned we've lost you to the Americans because you're now saying tomato. I'll forgive you, though. Oh my word. Tomatoes save me. Save me. I will not be lost to America I'm dragging you back I'm dragging you back um but there's there's a stark reality there and and you were saying this to a group of tv executives because the book comes from a McTaggart lecture most people will not know that is a lecture to the great and good of the TV industry. And a lot of the book comes from that. And you were standing there trying, as you put it, to improve the industry and therefore

the stories that are being told. How important was it for you to talk about money in that way? You know, really important. And actually, the more creatives that I speak to, it further affirms my decision to talk about things like that. I still meet writers, young British writers who are living at home in a very tiny bedroom and they're expected to have very huge ideas and they simply aren't quite being paid enough and so they take on four different writing projects to try and make ends meet but it's really hard and you describe a group of certainly some of these writers as misfits you put them together you put yourself in that category you define it on the back of the book as a misfit is one who looks at life differently many however are made into misfits because life looks at them differently. Beautifully put, we'd expect nothing less. But

as you put it, this industry, the world is cashing in on those misfits. Are you concerned by that at the same time as perhaps not giving them a fair deal sometimes? Absolutely. And I'm also overjoyed that misfits and people from marginalised communities are receiving more opportunities to make work. But whilst those opportunities are being made available, I am concerned about people being exploited in the process and the longevity of people's success, of people's security not being looked out for? Well, I think it was at the time, somebody said in a review of the lecture, there were audible gasps in the room. And in that lecture was actually when you said what had happened to you when you were writing and you went out for a drink with friends, your drink was spiked. And as many

people who know, who've seen I May Destroy You, will know that you were attacked, you were sexually abused, and you didn't have much memory from that. But you said it first in this speech. How did it feel saying it? I had been vocal about it to my workplace. So it wasn't the first time I had ever said it. Of course, it's the first time I've ever said it into a microphone. And it felt very freeing to dare to share that information because I know that other people have had similar experiences and I knew that sharing it would allow people to identify with me and that their story was reflected on stage. I knew that would happen and it was freeing. Yeah, it felt empowering. I didn't question whether I should say it. I know that you said that your attackers were never found. I know that you went to the police.

You've talked greatly how important therapy was for you and also how freeing it was to talk about your story. But we see in the news that rape prosecutions are at a low. The government's having to take action in that area. And of course, as you talk about, we've had a pandemic, which has also changed demand on services. How did you feel like you could get closure without your attackers, never mind being charged, but being found? My therapist said to me from the very beginning in my first session with her, which took place two days after I was assaulted, she said, my closure cannot be in relation to the case, to whatever happens with this person.

And I took that on. And that's what I would say to anybody who is listening, that it can't be about that because it's a mess. The judiciary system when it comes to sexual assault and rape is a mess. And if our closure hinged on finding the perpetrators of these crimes and prosecuting them, then many of us would be broken for the rest of our lives. So we have to find a way to find strength and to work our way through trauma irrelevant of that. I think that's very, very good advice, although it's obviously not an ideal situation. It's not an ideal situation. But for me, I'm always thinking about the victim and the survivor. The law is something separate.

The law is a mess. And I would love to be a part of whatever movement can help fix that. But what I know how to do is stay with the victim and the survivor. And for me, everything is about their closure and their evolution. I've got to ask you this as well, because there is a trope about difficult women, right? When a woman in particular says something or starts questioning something, it's often received in a very different way to a man. There's that kind of dominance penalty, it's called, versus a guy says something and it's received so differently to when a woman says something in the workplace.

And I have to bring up the fact that you did turn down a million dollars, correct me if I'm wrong, from Netflix, I believe, for I May Destroy You, you know, because you weren't allowed, as I understand, to own any of the copyright and you would just kept asking questions and it didn't seem right to you. How did you feel or how were you made to feel about yourself during that? And do you think you were judged differently or at times harsher because you were a woman? I must say, I don't remember feeling like people found me difficult. I remember feeling like people found me disturbed. So it was almost like she's a crazy woman. You know, that's the other one, isn't it? She's either difficult or she's

crazy to the point where I began to think I was crazy or unnecessarily paranoid. And I think at that stage, it's hard to really say to people, trust your gut and follow your instinct because it's not a very useful sentence all the time. But that is what I did in that situation. And I'm very glad I did because in the end, I wasn't a crazy woman that was acting wild and disturbed and unhinged. I was right to observe the industry and observe that there was a lack of transparency because there was an exploitation occurring. And if I didn't press on, despite being seen as crazy and paranoid and unhinged, I wouldn't have got to that truth. And I wouldn't have ended up saying no to being exploited. I would not have then had the space to say yes to employers who were not exploiting me, who were willing to collaborate with me and listen to me

and treat me as an equal. I had to say no to the former to make space for the latter. But still, I mean, saying no to a million bucks, that's a cool situation. Yeah, it's a cool situation. And I think it's even cooler if you realise that you don't need a million dollars. I was living at that time. I was in a house share with lovely Ash. That's my housemate. And I had enough food to eat. I did not need a million dollars, which means I can make the decision whether I take that or not.

What is behind that million dollars that, you know, when you can say no to a million dollars because you realise you do have enough, even though it's not lots, then that's awesome. Yeah. I mean, I'm hoping by that point you could afford the canister. By then I could definitely afford the canister and I could afford my bills. Sometimes my housemate has to bail me out every now and again because the cash flow can be very slow when you work in telly. Could I just bottle that moment? She goes, ha! I think I want that as my phone tone.

Michaela Cole there. Thank you to her. In October, an exchange that is burned into my memory for providing a true radio first. Hazel Tindall, a Shetland knitwear designer and knitting pattern tutor, joined me as part of a discussion about the relationship between knitting and coding. And I asked her whether it was true that she'd once held the title of the world's fastest knitter. Well, as far as I know, I still hold it, but nobody's taught me otherwise. You keep it then. I'm definitely not taking it away from you.

How did your love and fascination with knitting and creating patterns begin? Well, I started probably as soon as I could focus on movement, I would have been watching the ladies in the family knitting. So probably watching from the, I don't know, three months old, six days a week, they would have been knitting. And then I started knitting myself before I went to school. What do you make of the idea then of the parallels between knitting and code? Because you also teach people and write patterns.

You're speaking to somebody that dropped science at the age of 13 or 14, so it's a bit of a strange world for me. But I can understand, yes, coding, because there is a language for knitting patterns that's gone a long way back well I was going to say I know that you could perhaps read me and read all of us a line of instructions and translate yes I've tried to choose not not too long a line So this would be for sizes 3 and 5, round 9, asterisk, K1, K2, open brackets, K3, K2, closed brackets, twice, open brackets, K4, K2 together, closed close brackets 35 times comma nit2 comma slmx colon rep from asterisk once more 76 sts deck colon 374 sts rem hope someone, Hazel, has only just tuned in at that exact moment and really thinks everything's changed

and we're speaking in knitting code, knitting pattern. What did that mean, a little bit of? It's a decrease row in a Fair Isle yoke. That was the first for me, certainly, hearing knitting code read aloud on the radio. I hope it's the last. Hazel Tindall, thank you very much indeed. Not easy to read those things out,

especially on live radio, didn't you do well? Now to two of our big exclusive interviews this year. Two women cleared of the most serious crimes wanted to talk to Womanza. First, Lady Lavinia Norse was grieving for her husband, the senior judge Sir Martin Norse, when she was accused and then subsequently charged with 17 counts of sex abuse involving a boy under the age of 12. In May, aged 77, she was cleared of all charges after a three and a half year ordeal and two-week trial that she says has left her life in pieces.

This clip is a very personal account of how the process affected her. I was interviewed, I think it was five hours, I can't remember exactly how long it was, and it was the most awful, awful experience. And what was made even worse was that the conversations that I had with the accuser had all been taped. So he had been recording you? Yes. After that questioning which will have centred around what you were being accused of, child sex abuse, were you told other details of what you were being accused of? Oh there were 17 charges, which I don't wish to go into.

But you were hearing, I suppose, this detail for the first time? For the first time, yeah. I mean, it was news to me. Up until that point, I knew nothing. I had no idea, except it just came under the general heading of sex abuse. But they seemed to come up with 17 different aspects of things that I might have done. Did you expect it to go to court? No. And then what was the process like after that? Because it did go to court.

It was just... I can't really talk. You can imagine that because my husband was such a senior lawyer, the shame and just the terror of being in a court and looking at a judge who, in the sort of clothes that my husband used to wear and the whole panoply of the court. You can't imagine what that's like for someone who's lived in the law all her life. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would ever find myself in that position. Just to look at the Crown Prosec prosecution papers just made me feel terrified. To see that in print, that wasn't almost enough to finish me,

let alone the actual process. It was simply terrifying, absolutely terrifying. How long after your husband died were you charged? He died in November 17. And I think I was charged in, it must have been in the summer of 20. So it was a long time to live with it. The accuser was very happy to let it be known widely in London and in and around Newmarket, where I live, and freely admitting that this is what I had done. And so a lot of my friends had been told of what I had done long before I was charged.

When I was interviewed by the police, they said, we've got a list of the people that have been told. I mean, intolerable on top of everything else. I didn't know who was looking at me, where I could turn from. I didn't know who I could trust, because I didn't know who knew what had been said to anyone. I just... You know, you just disappear into your house

and try to keep strong and stay there, but it's not easy. Lady Lavinia Norse, and you can hear the whole interview with her, plus an interview with her solicitor, Sandra Paul, covering the arguments for and against those accused of such serious crimes remaining anonymous, as well as a discussion of the evidential threshold, all on BBC Sounds. Next, we're going to hear from Amanda Knox.

14 years ago, the British student Meredith Kircher was sexually assaulted and killed in a brutal attack in her apartment in Italy. She was just 21. Her death was shocking and horrendous for her family. But sadly, Meredith Kircher did not become the most memorable name in the investigation that followed. That fell to Amanda Knox, Meredith's American flatmate. She was interviewed for many hours without a lawyer or interpreter and was effectively tried by journalists, some of whom dubbed her Foxy Knoxie. Eventually found guilty and jailed alongside Rudy Gedde for 26 years. She was freed on appeal in 2011 after four years in prison and fully exonerated

in 2015. This was her first UK interview for many years, in which she says she's not been able to restore her reputation or take back control of her story. Amanda Knox. I still don't know to this day if I'm ever going to do anything in my own life, myself, that's going to define me as much as the accusation of something that I didn't do. Do you try when you meet people? Because people will recognize you. You haven't changed the way you look. You could have done all sorts of things that you've chosen not to do. And I think that's interesting in itself. And some would say admirable that you're trying to be yourself in the middle of what has been a seizure of your identity in many ways. But do people come up to you and say, hey, you're Amanda Knox, and then ask you about the case? Yeah. And I appreciate you framing it that way, because I think a lot of people are confused about why I like I haven't changed my name or I haven't gone out of my way to like do, you know, facial reconstruction or something like that in order to escape this narrative that was thrust upon me. But it's kind of the same reason why I never, you know, pled guilty to a crime that I didn't commit. I didn't do it. And it's not fair. And so I'm sort of, I'm a little bit stubborn in the sense of like, there's nothing wrong with my name,

and there's nothing wrong with my face. And what happened is not my fault. So I'm not going to be the one to willingly bear the costs of this misinformation campaign. I do get approached quite often, and I do get recognized quite often. And it is a challenge because, on the one hand, a lot of people followed my case, not just because it was salacious and crazy, but because they cared about it, because they saw that there was a real human person who died, and a real human person who was potentially facing an incredible injustice. And so they got, you know, emotionally impacted and intellectually engaged with a very, very difficult, complicated situation. And I don't want to, you know, not recognize that no one ever had to care about me. No one. Like,

I could have just been disappeared into the criminal justice system, into the Italy's prison system, and no one needed to care. So the fact that anyone cared about what happened to me and whether or not there was an incredible injustice, I do want to acknowledge. At the same time, it's a little bit difficult when I'm just trying to, like, go grocery shopping. But I think that, I mean, that's a very charitable way of characterizing some of the people who perhaps recognize you or want to talk to you. There will be people who you will be aware will still think, you know, that you did it, that there's something to question. And I'm sorry to put that to you when you have been cleared, but I wonder why you still think people hold those views? Because I know you've thought a lot about how you were portrayed.

Yeah, the why question has always plagued me. And I feel like you have to go deep into human psychology to understand it. So, you know, there are certain biases that we have naturally. It's not to say that, like, we're actively having prejudice against someone like me. But what happens is there's something called the anchoring bias where the first thing you ever hear about a person is the thing that sort of solidifies in your mind and defines that person to you. And you have trouble relinquishing that idea when it's the first idea. That's why first impressions are so important. There's also things like confirmation bias. You see what you want to see. I've often

very much felt like I've not been a real human being to people. I've been an idea of a person that people can project their fears and their fantasies and their prejudice onto so that the idea of an American girl, an idea of a sexually active girl, an idea of a young woman accused of a violent sex crime. These are all things that we have like a deep sort of intuition about that we then project onto the person without that person ever having a say. And that sort of impressionability is so strong, it actually will overwhelm even evidence to the contrary. So I don't engage with it because I feel like it's a losing battle. I do feel like I potentially have to be more open about myself and my life than I might normally otherwise be because I'm trying to say, here's who I really am. If you want to judge me, which you're totally entitled to do, just judge me on the actual thing that's happening. Me right now, the facts of the case, who I am and what I do today. That's what's real. Let's engage on at least the level of reality. And if we can't engage on that front, then it's just not worth it.

It's too much emotional pain for me, honestly. Amanda Knox. Now, the false arrest, kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard, a 33-year-old marketing executive in London who was just walking home by a serving police officer, happened in March. But the ripples have continued throughout the year as women across the UK contacted the programme

to express their fears and anger. Pure rage. We talked about the police and trust in the police. But who polices the police and can they be trusted? The Independent Office for Police Conduct, known as the IOPC, is meant to and the Deputy Director General, Claire Bassett, has been leading a wider investigation into inappropriate group chats and social media across the police force.

In this clip from our full interview, I asked her if sexist banter and misogyny were part of police culture. I think it is really important to remember that the vast majority of police officers do a really tough job in really difficult circumstances really well. And every day we see extraordinary examples of them going above and beyond and doing that. But sadly, that majority is really let down by repeated occurrences that we're seeing now of WhatsApp groups, of other social media, where groups of police officers are sharing comments and jokes, misogynistic, sexist jokes, referring to their colleagues as sluts, that sort of thing, which is just inappropriate and has absolutely no place. Is it mainly male officers?

They're not always male only groups, but the people that we have caught doing this are predominantly male. Would you say it's systemic, this behaviour within the England and Wales police forces? Because how widespread is this as the backdrop to what could still be seen, quote unquote, as good policing? I think it's very hard to define whether it's systemic or not. Our role is to look at specific complaints and investigate specific incidents. And we are seeing those. What we're also seeing is that a lot of the time officers not calling out fellow officers for doing this. And when we look at, for example, someone's phone and we see numerous exchanges and text messages and membership of these sort of groups, we also see sometimes, you know, 10, 15 other officers in those groups who haven't called out that behaviour.

We look at policing through a particular lens of where it's going wrong. I think what we would call out, though, and the system does need to improve there is room for systemic improvement particularly around zero tolerance of this sort of behaviour. Is it on their work phones? It can be and it can be on personal phones and one of the things that we have done is issued guidance about the need for much clearer rules around how phones are used and the avoidance of dual purpose devices, for example. What we're trying to do and what we see our role is doing is shining a bright light on what's happening so that we can support those in policing and those in leadership in policing. And that's what we're calling for, for them to bring about this culture and to challenge that behaviour and send that very strong message that there's no place for that.

And where it does happen, people will get caught and will face very significant sanctions. Why on earth should anyone trust anything the IOPC has to say? Because our role is to look at, and one of the things that we do, we carry out over 400 individual investigations ourselves each year. There's over 3,000 complaints that we have oversight and look at. We take our role incredibly seriously. Do you know why I'm asking that, though? Do you suspect why I may be asking that?

No, I think I might need you to tell me. Operation Midland, two words. Major expense, major moment for the policing of the police. Scotland Yard's shambolic VIP child sex abuse inquiry, to remind any of our listeners, where police officers believe the false accusations of an now proven fantasist, Carl Beach, who's in prison for perverting the course of justice and fraud.

Your watchdog found no evidence of misconduct or criminality by the officers during Operation Midland. So I ask you again, why on earth should we trust the IOPC's judgment or ability, as you say, to improve systems? So in Operation Kentia, which was where we looked at particular elements of Operation Midland, we did find significant learning. The requirements for what constitutes misconduct are set out in the law. We applied that law and investigated that and did not find evidence of misconduct. We however make a number of suggestions and recommendations to that

which have been implemented and have brought about quite significant change to the way for example search warrants are dealt with so i think actually our record on that stands and has been under your record on that stands? Really? I think we encourage people to read the full... The former Home Secretary I'm going to use some of the words of the people who have read the report and have looked into what you did. Not you personally, your organisation I would wish to

clarify. I have no idea of your personal role. You can also clarify that if you wish. Former Home Secretary Lord Blunkett said the statement released by your body after your investigations and with regards to Operation Midland was a shocking exercise in exoneration. A whitewash big enough to cover the whole of the exterior of New Scotland Yard in two thick coats. You know, you invited me here today to talk about misogyny and sexism and policing. I think it's really important that we focus on that.

And I'm very grateful that you have come. And I'm going to come back to women and trust in a minute. But one thing that's incredibly important is the trust that I can have, or rather test that we can have in the body that polices the police. Our role is to look for misconduct. That's what the law asks us to do. And that's what we did in the case that you're referring to there. We investigated that. We looked at that and we didn't find misconduct. I read out some of the victim impact statement written by Sarah's mother, Susan. It was an incredibly powerful statement.

And a woman who knows more than most about how Susan Everard might be feeling is Mina Smallman, mother of the murdered sisters, Bieber Henry and Nicole Smallman, who were killed in a park last year. Mina was very moved by Susan Everard's words. And when she spoke to me me she had some advice for Susan and other parents based on what she and her husband Chris have been going through I'm so pleased they were spared weeks of a court case but I just want to say to her that we know, Chris and I know that there is no point where you can celebrate

that this is not a victory. I know that because when he was found guilty, we had no celebration afterwards. And anything that you do will never bring them back. But just to say that I think of her often, of her mum, and people often struggle with what to say to you because they don't want to say the wrong thing. And saying, I'm sorry for your loss feels hollow to the person who's saying it.

But, you know, I would say reach out for help. You know, if you're having nightmares or can't sleep or can't eat, go to the professionals. And Victim Support are an amazing organisation. They have the ability to arrange for counselling if it's needed, but don't suffer in silence because there comes a time when everybody else has to get back on with their lives. But I know all the parents who've lost children as we have,

you're in our thoughts and our prayers. Mina Smallman, so brave and dignified and after everything that has happened to her, finding the strength to reach out to another woman, to Susan Everard. And I should say, Mina will be a guest editor on the Today programme on January the 1st, on New Year's Day. So don't miss that. Now, ever since Afghanistan fell to the Taliban in August, we've been keeping across what's happening to women and girls there. We've had reports on the ground. We've heard about the women judges who've had to flee and are now, some of them, keeping safe in Greece, if they can. A few weeks ago, we marked the amount of time teenage girls haven't been able to go to secondary school. In September, we spoke to the

woman who was the women's minister in Afghanistan before it fell, Hasina Safi. Like thousands of others, she's now a refugee living in a hotel with her family here in the UK. In November, I caught back up with her to find out how she was getting on in the hotel. When you are thinking about life and death, when you are thinking about yourself being targeted and then you think about a hotel, so this is a blessing. And definitely I consider it because I choose to laugh. So I am here. Definitely, as we all know, a home is a home.

And we are all waiting for the accommodation presently. Is there a community of you? Are you bonding? Did you know other people who were staying there? What's it like day to day? No, it's not people who I knew, but I know them now. Because we stayed almost for, it's like two months now. Because most of them are the people who have been with british projects and things like that so i had been a part of these people before being the minister

because i have worked for british projects a lot but in here because they all have women daughters i was as a woman interested to sit with them to listen to their stories and to really see how at this time also we could help each other so experience is always strengthening yeah it's just very interesting I suppose to to make sure as well as keeping an eye a strong eye on what's going on in Afghanistan we hear how people are here and and what's been going on with you I this is the second time you've been a refugee, which we spoke about last time. And I know, which I also think is a really important point to bring up, that you are very determined to go back to Afghanistan. Definitely. Like you feel for your

country and it's a feeling in your blood. I'm sorry, do you want to take a moment? No, it's okay. I know that you've got people that you're thinking about and you want to be back there, I'm sure, in so many ways. Yes, it's difficult because we really struggled hard on the nation building, especially women participation, developing. And also we really in the last 20 years, we really tried to take up the burden, especially

women. We really tried to take up the burden, especially women, the burden for our society, for our community, and also for our nation. But we will still keep on, keep doing it. Because the more we fall down, the more we strengthen. So we will keep on struggling definitely we have challenges but there is always a hope once you have a vision once you have a firm feeling that this is where you want to go there is always hope hope for development hope for development, hope for humanity, hope for continuity. In whatever situation we are, we will keep up our struggle. Thank you very much.

Thank you to Hasina Safi. And we have checked, she is still in the hotel. Her hope and determination seem the perfect end to this programme. But the very last word goes to 104-year-old Diana Gayford. It is only right. She was one of the first producers of Woman's Hour when it began 75 years ago, an anniversary we marked this year on October the 7th with a special programme. But what was in the programme in 1946? Well, one major difference was that the first host was a man. I kid you not. Diana, take it away.

It was cookery, recipes for food, of course the rationing was still on, hairdressing, fashion, childcare, and that was about it. All domestic things. So just in terms of the programme at that time, it. All domestic things. So just in terms of the programme at that time, it was split into talks, so contributors would give a five-minute talk or something? Yes. Of course, the programme's changed enormously over the years.

Tremendously. As society has changed. I didn't know if you wanted to say something on that. Well, in those days, in the early days, really, we were informing women about things. And I would say from the few programmes I've listened to, we are asking women about things more and interviewing them and asking them to say what they feel, whereas it was different before. It was sort of like, learn with us and hear what we have to say and can tell you.

Although we, as producers, we tried not to make it sound too governancy. But I think also, of course, I think that's a really fascinating difference, actually, to think about, because we also want to hear people's experiences more and bring more people in. Would you call yourself a feminist? No, I don't think I'm a feminist. But after all, when I went to university, there were only 500 women at Cambridge. And I believe in the education of women. And I believe that women should be able to do what they want. What's the problem with the word feminism? Is that, I mean, it wouldn't have necessarily, would it have even been in the ether

when you were producing Woman's Hour? Not much. No, I don't think so. Not much. I don't like the word feminism. Why not? It's too stereotyped and sort of too aggressive about women. We can do things without having to sort of be backed by a word like feminism. So you don't need the label? No, the label, that's the right word. Interesting. I forget so many words these days. I hope if I make it to 104 I can speak nearly half as well as you're talking to us today. Well, it's the way you're interviewing me, probably.

Have you got any advice for me? Oh, I would hesitate to give you advice. Always like a production note. Well, I think, believe that women are interested in everything. Absolutely everything. There's nothing that we're not interested in. I'm quite sure. Amen, Diana Gayford.

I promise to keep honouring that. Big thanks to her and all of our guests this year. Woman's Hour, 75 years young, and we're just getting going. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. From the makers of The Battersea Poltergeist, a new podcast series for BBC next one. There is a very strong sense of pure evil.

Subscribe to Uncanny on BBC Sounds. I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.