Woman's Hour - Abi Morgan, Toddlers running errands, Suzie Miller

Episode Date: May 10, 2022

Abi Morgan is a BAFTA and Emmy-award winning playwright and screenwriter whose credits include The Iron Lady, Suffragette, Sex Traffic, The Hour, Brick Lane and Shame. She is the creator and writer of BBC drama, The Split. She has now written her first book. This is not a Pity Memoir about an extraordinarily tumultous period in her and her family's life.Prima Facie starring Jodie Comer, best known for her role as Villanelle in Killing Eve, is making her West End debut. Both star and play have been performing to glowing reviews. It is an incisive investigation into the criminal justice system, how it deals with sexual assault and then fails those seeking justice through it. A one-woman show, it tells the story of a criminal defence barrister who is raped by a colleague. Suzie Miller, who wrote the play, joins Emma Barnett in the Woman’s Hour studio.Would you let your 2 year old walk to the shops on their own? The long running Japanese TV show Old Enough!, which has become available to stream on Netflix, follows kids as young as 2 while their parents send them off on their first ever errand away from home. Unknowingly followed by undercover TV camera operators. It has sparked debate about how much freedom we give our toddlers in the UK.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Has your life ever felt like it's not real or not happening to you? That sort of filmic moment. My first guest today, who's in the business of drama and has won the top awards in her industry for creating so much of it, felt her

life spinning out of control nearly four years ago. You'll hear her story next. But what about you? What was that moment and why? For good or bad? I think you'll know it immediately. And if you feel you can, share it with me. Share it with all of us. Text me here at Women's Hour

on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or email me through the Woman's Hour website. Also coming up on today's programme, what caused women and men to walk out of a dinner on Sunday evening that should have been a laugh? And the writer behind the one-woman play taking the West End by Storm,

starring the one and only Jodie Comer. All to come. But first, my first guest today is used to telling the stories of others. The BAFTA and Emmy Award-winning playwright and screenwriter behind The Iron Lady, Suffragette, The Hour, I could go on. She's also, of course, the creator and writer of the BBC drama The Split, which you may have just finished watching. I am, of course, the creator and writer of the BBC drama The Split, which you may have just finished watching. I am, of course, talking about Abby Morgan,

who has now turned the pen on herself after the most extraordinary series of events in her personal life, the result of which is her first book, This Is Not A Pity Memoir. It starts with Abby's partner and the father of their two children, Jacob Kruchewski, collapsing with a brain seizure in June 2018. And we wanted you to hear a taster of Abby's writing, and she's just joined me in the studio now. So, Abby, take it away. You are having another seizure.

They normally last one to three minutes. Over five, they are classified as a medical emergency. They have come on suddenly. They need to take you down for an MRI immediately. A curtain is yanked, separating you from us, but I can see as they pull it closed that you are writhing, arching your back as if mid-exorcism, screaming in agony. You have been at hospital for exactly seven days. Is he going to die? She's very pretty, the consultant. Blonde. A nice woman.

In another life, I would have liked to have been her friend. I have teenage children. I need to prepare them if he's going to die. The nice consultant's eyes fill with tears. Or I think they do. In my mind, I am commending myself for my calm stoicism, so brave that I have moved her to tears. Happy Morgan, good morning. Morning. It didn't stop there though, did it? No.

And it gets worse, much worse. Jacob went into rapid decline. It's touch and go for many months and eventually put in a drug-induced coma for nearly six months. And while in hospital, in total, he ends up being there for 443 days. What happened? What was going on with him? Yeah, I mean, I mean, the morning he collapsed, I just got out to get him some paracetamol thinking he just had a headache. But as you said, you know, he went through a long period of in a coma. And during that time, the reason why he's put in that coma is he had he

had developed something called anti-NMDA encephalitis, receptor encephalitis, which is commonly known as brain on fire. And so rapid decline, needing to kind of go into a coma state. And then when he woke up, that was when everything really changed for us. Because I remember one of the consultants said, you know, Jacob's brain doesn't look like yours or mine anymore. And let's definitely come to that. But what's so extraordinary about this book, which I read in one sitting, I actually went to work in the middle, came back and stayed up till three in the morning reading it.

I was so engrossed. But seriously, I mean, you make the remark there and you make it a few other points in the book about, you know, if this was a film, I would cut this scene. It did read like the most dramatic plot, but it was your life and it was happening. He had been on a series of drugs, is that right? Yeah, so he was in the last phase of a very successful drugs trial. Jake had an underlying condition of MS,

but he was very high functioning. It was relapsing, remitting. So it meant that he went through phases of chronic fatigue, but other than that, he was in pretty good shape and then in March 2018 which was three months before Jacob collapsed the drug was voluntarily withdrawn by the pharmaceutical company following 12 people on it had collapsed with various forms of brain inflammation and so subsequently another nine collapsed and we now believe that Jake is possibly one of those nine, ten that collapsed. And I know that's a sort of live proceedings which we don't and can't go into

but you didn't know any of this then. All you knew was that he had collapsed, he was having a seizure and actually you were almost quite irritated, weren't you? Yeah, I know. I mean, I think if any woman has ever dealt with man flu, I sort of put it down to a bit of man flu, you know, and I'm kind of used to, you know, Jake was very good at managing bit of man flu, you know, and I'm kind of used, you know, Jay was very good at managing his MS. So, you know, and, you know, like any woman, I was juggling a lot. It was the last day of my son's GCSEs, you know, I wanted to go out and buy some lunch, I wanted to get my coffee, I was totally self absorbed, basically, on my route,

my day. And so, you know, I it was such a shock when he did come back. And I think when something like that happens, I, you know, I remember a friend saying to me you know your future suddenly happens and it was like I had you imagine these things and certainly I'd plotted these things before but when it suddenly happens to you it's an immediate 360 bat flip that you do and I think I spent you know certainly the six seven months while Jacob was in a coma just trying to make sense of it and And then subsequently when he came out of it, every consultant became a character. You know, every bit of dialogue that I heard felt like ripe for a film. And you also talk about, you know, there's this huge rush of energy and activity.

And then there's nothing, you know, you're just there, aren't you? And there's this day after day of going in and getting the coffee and sitting there. But there's also a whole industry around being in a coma. Yeah, I mean, I think if you ever watch a coma on the movies, it's just someone lies very still on a bed with very few, you know, wires in them. And it's very sort of calm. And, but in fact, the industry around keeping someone moving while they're in a coma, you know, keeping all their limbs moving, you know, so Jake was having physiotherapy just to kind of keep him physically moving, even though he was in deep slumber. You know, you have these nurses who are constantly checking medication, checking blood pressure. And also, you know, Jake was on a ward of five,

six other people. And it's a very respectful, quiet community, because we're all dealing with our own tragedies. But then you have these intense little exchanges, you know, by the coffee machine, or, you know, or it was constantly a feeling you never knew who was going to survive. And so there were very high stakes to it. And yet the nurses were these wonderful sort of metronome who kept it going. But it was at times very adrenalised, often very relentless and boring. And a lot of the time you are talking into space and you're talking to someone who's silent, hoping that they can hear you.

And also, which I know, again again we'll come to a bit more you're talking to the Jake you lost absolutely not necessarily the Jake that you were going to get again I think the reality of who Jacob was was hadn't hit me at while he was in the coma because I think it was very touch and go whether he would come through that I think when he started to wait, that was when we had to really kind of reconceive. But certainly it gave me a lot of time to reflect. You know, it was the summer of 2018 going into the autumn, and the National Hospital, which is where Jake was, is right by Queen Square, and I watched every season change.

It all felt a bit like a Richard Curtis movie after a while, you know. But it gave me a lot of time to think. It does give you a lot of time to think and reflect and really study Jacob because he was lying there so the only thing I had was his sort of physical being and my memories of him and Jacob obviously had worked and worked as an actor you of course in your line of work there's a particular part that you a memory that you went over and you share in the book which you know you say isn't a good thought for you. You think back to forgetting him in an acceptance speech. Yeah, I mean, so I, yeah, I talk about Astoria in the book,

but I, you know, miraculously was up for an Emmy, you know, five years before Jacob's collapse. And we went to LA and we did all the fun things and we were really giddy and excited. And we were sort of waiting for our category to be announced. and I was already imagining when I was going to be able to go and get a burger and could I take off these horrible shoes I was wearing and I won it and I couldn't believe it. And that was for? It was for the hour so I won best writer I think for a mini serial and I went up and collected the award and basically I threw the you, I didn't say thank you to the one person I love the most.

It's Jacob. I kind of went for the funny line at the end. And it haunted me and it haunted us for a long time. And so I kind of, it's made me think about all the things that have been great. And I felt I'd done well in my relationship. And also it made me really look at the mistakes I'd made and reflect on them. There is, as if this wasn't difficult, horrifying, upsetting enough, there is an even more horrifying part of this story, which is when he does wake up

and you realise something about him and what he's thinking about you. Yeah, it's a great plot twist. I mean, it felt like a cliche, but basically when Jacob woke up, what was amazing was very quickly we realised his language was intact. But for the first two or three weeks, you know, everyone warmly embraced him. We were so delighted to see him. It was very clear he had a long way to go. But I became quickly aware that the one person he didn't recognise anymore was me. And it was kind of distilled when I bought in a really cheesy red, bright red balloon heart for Valentine's Day and

gave it to him. And the nurse had bought a really awful kind of red rose wrapped in cellophane for me and very sweetly gave it to me and said, Jacob, say, you know, it's your wife. And he said, it's not my wife. And from then on, it became apparent that Jacob had developed a very specific and quite rare delusion called Capgras delusion, which is the belief that someone close to you has been replaced by an imposter. It can also mean, you can also mean your house can be replaced or a pet could be replaced, but it's more likely someone close to you. And so in January 2019, when he woke up, it became apparent he didn't know who I was. And it took a year to persuade him that actually I wasn't working for

the state um and and and that I was in fact his partner long-term partner how did you cope with that well it's funny I'm hearing myself say it and you know I'm a dramatist so I'm aware of the drama but I can also feel the the catch in my still you know it's still quite alive for me um it was so shocking I I mean, at first, it was it was a mixture of hysteria and, and shock. And I remember I kept on gripping onto the walls and saying to people, Can you feel the underground underneath you? And I realized, I think I shook for three days solidly. So initially, it was really overwhelming. And then it was very painful, not only for me, but for Jake's family for my family for my children because you know they knew how much you know how much I adored Jake and it was very

odd to be asked to wait outside the room so he could be with family or you know and so what we devised and what really he came up with really he he accepted in the first few weeks that I probably worked for the state and I've been assigned by the state to help him and his children and I kind of fell into that role for a while and then that evolved into a friendship and I made a very definite decision and a kind of life decision I was so determined that he could I was insulted that he would forget me I think it was my indignation my arrogance probably and I thought I've just got to do everything to prove to him that I am his partner and that I know him. And I guess that's also where the book came from. It became a need to investigate, interrogate myself

but also my relationship with Jake and also to kind of write the story of us, the story of him and who he was and who I was because both of our identities in a way were threatened. But to have that, it's a theft. You had waited and I had, it's a theft. You know, you had waited. And I had, reading this book and anyone who does, wait for that moment for you.

And then it's not even a rejection. It's like a beyond rejection. Yeah, I mean, it's profoundly spooky and creepy and shaking. And it demands that you have to dig very deep about who you are. And you and I did have to really hold on to my sanity. I think the way I held on was that I was surrounded by people who loved me, my children, my family, Jacob's family, who are amazing. And I think we were all so committed to getting Jacob well. But there was a very key moment later when Jake came home, which is I saw him look at himself in the mirror. And I said, who is that, Jacob? And he went, I don't know. And I said, it's Jacob, it's you. And I realised it's not

that he'd forgotten me, he'd forgotten himself. And when I started to perceive this, as you say, this theft, this burglary of my own life, I started to realise actually, it was all about him. And I needed to help him find himself. And in finding himself, he'd find me again. You were advised by professionals, and I know you would say the same, anyone going through that would need support. And part of that advice I know was once he had no further use for that, that viewer view, as it were, he would let go of it. Which, as you say, took some time, but did happen. At the same time as this, Abbey Morgan, you're having to continue working. You've got your deadlines.

I know work would also have been a saviour, but it was necessary. You had to earn money and to keep things on the road. But you were not feeling well yourself. Yeah, I started to not feel great in about the April 2019. So Jacob had just come out of his coma and was going into rehab. And I had this thumping pain in my chest and I had thought it was the seat belt rubbing against my chest as I drove and then I'd put it down to too much chocolate and late nights and coffee and I really had to take more care of

myself and a director a very good girlfriend and director I work with said you know what just just just pop in get it checked out and so I went in to see a breast surgeon and um it became he said within 10 minutes of examining me he said I'm 99% sure you've got breast cancer and so within uh two weeks I was diagnosed with stage three grade three breast cancer uh in my left breast which I was so annoyed by because it felt like such a bad I just thought if this is going to be a movie, I can't put this in as well. I mean, you know, this is deserving of a film of its own and it's not coming in this movie.

So I was kind of irritated, if I'm really honest. That was my initial reaction. You know, the mercenary in me was like, this is not going to make a good plot choice here. I'm going to have to cut this bit. But I mean, this is all happening at the same time. Yeah. Yes. But life happens like that, doesn't it? You know, you have years where you're and in many ways, one of the things I reflect about in the book is how smug I'd got. You

know, I'd kind of been gripping quietly going, OK, things are OK. Actually, we're OK. And so I think the whole thing has been, you know, I think writing a memoir is an exercise in truth, you know, is an exercise for searching for truth and really reassessing. So it's forced me to reassess everything. And at the same time, you are so, I mean, if anybody's gone through cancer, you're exhausted and you're physically, you know, they use words like battles and warrior for a reason because you are gearing up for a fight. You are quite funny in the book at times. Yeah, well, you have to be. Because you talk about, you know, losing your hair and putting on weight

and how he looks and the two of you together. And it's obviously, the book's called, just to remind you, if you're just joining us, this is not a pity memoir. Deliberately so, I imagine. Absolutely. I mean, I think, and also the book oscillates all the time between tragedy and comedy. You know, awful tragedy, of course, you know, terrible moments, bleak moments, but at the same time, the counterpoint, And also the book oscillates all the time between tragedy and comedy.

Awful tragedy, of course, terrible moments, bleak moments. But at the same time, the counterpoint, there's a lot of love, there's a lot of joy, there's a lot of humour. And I've got these two amazing teenagers. Teenagers get bad press. There's an energy and a life to living with those two that really kept me going, my daughter and my son. So, you know, we had to keep the lightness of being. And really that also came from Jacob. You know, I'd spent nearly 18 years with Jacob.

And one of the great things about Jacob is he's a terrific fun seeker. He's an adventurer. And he does live with a real lightness of being. And I talk about that in the book. And so I tried to – and I do not live with that. You know, I'm, you know, I have to push to be glass half full. You know, I'm much more intense and I go to the dark. And he was always a great counterpoint to that. And I had to learn to do that while he wasn't there.

You get married. Don't you get married? I know. Yes, absolutely. Which isn't just for tax purposes. No, I mean, because you talk about this being a love story. Ladies and gentlemen listening to this, it does help. Yes. But the point is, this is later. Once he's home and, you know, there is a lot of detail there, which I know is important as well for people to know about, you know, how he comes home, what support is there, what support crucially isn't there. But people will want to know what happened next and how he is today and how you are? So Jacob came home in the summer of 2019. And I think no one tells you that when someone comes back, that's when the rehab starts. And so we put through everything at it, we had every kind of therapist in town that money could could buy. And I was

very lucky. I took every gig in town, I was writing serial killer films and anything I could get. And it's been a slow process of recovery. And at the same time, I was going through my treatment. And I think we were just getting to a point where I starting to feel light at the end of the tunnel, I finished my treatment, and then we went into COVID. And so March 2020 was really the start of us all being at home as a family. And although that was incredibly hard. And I write about this, it also really brought us together and forced us to be together. And I think as a family, we really worked together to recover and help Jacob through that. And we've had some, you know, obviously it's been very up and down,

but in June 2021, we got married. And I think for many reasons, but mainly because there's nowhere else I want to be other than with Jacob and we've been through such a lot together. And I think what I have regained in Jacob is his humour and his conversation, his wit. And those are always the things I loved about him. And there are moments in your life where you just want to stop and punctuate. And we'd had this massive backflip.

And I guess I wanted to regroup and recheck and hone in and hold his hand and put a ring on it you know I guess if you want to use a phrase but and in the last six months he's made even more amazing amazing I think he's gone beyond anything that any of us could have imagined you know I think the expectation of Jake was pretty low this time last year and then from about September onwards of last year but really from January February of February of this year. We've seen radical improvements. So he's starting to do the things again he loves. He's just started to try and play tennis again. He's a great communicator.

He loves movies. He loves football. And he's starting to explore the word travel a little bit. And he's out again in the world. And we never, ever expected that. So I feel huge gratitude at this moment. It's wonderful to be able to talk to you. As I say, I couldn't put it down.

And you do obviously see the world a bit like a film, a bit like a drama, and there you are with this plot of your life. I think I wrote it for those three o'clock in the morning moments where you're desperately trying to find anything on the Internet that you can relate to. And I remember actually also, sorry, just one other point was Kate Garroway, of course, came to national prominence during COVID, not just for her broadcasting work, because, of course, what's going on with her husband bringing her home. And you refer to that in the book, actually, about how people live afterwards. Totally. And I think, you know, I look at someone like Kate Garroway and I know how incredibly hard it is when you're trying to maintain

and sustain a family and bring someone back, you know, back to life again. And work. And work. And you do whatever you can. And also you're trying to communicate your story

because you're keeping your own sanity. But also your story can help, you know, and I think, you know, I title it This Is Not A Pity Memoir. And if you read the book, you'll understand why. But it's really about, you know, a title it, This is Not a Pity Memoir. And if you read the book, you'll understand why. But it's really about, you know, a pity memoir is just words on pages.

And if it means something to someone, then it's worth being said. And I guess that's what I admire about anybody who has gone through this experience, you know, and what you learn from it is the need and the desire to communicate and the hope it might help someone else as well as yourself. Abbey Morgan, I'm sure your candour will, both just now on air and also on the page as always. Thank you very much. Thanks so much. Thank you. Your message is coming in about the moment in your life

or perhaps some of the moments. And one here actually very powerful indeed from Kathy says, I so identify with Abi and I send her my love. My partner was rushed into hospital with sepsis last week. He's conscious now but doesn't recognise me. Yesterday he looked me straight in the eye and with great venom said, stupid woman, why can't you just go away?

So someone listening with some of that direct experience. Catherine's emailed, I've never understood it feels like a dream by people when they say that on programmes like Britain's Got Talent until I gave birth to twins by emergency C-section after three days of induced labour. My husband sent home. I was left alone in a maternity ward with two bundles together in the shallow hospital crib. It was in the twilight of the early morning and the most

surreal feeling ever. I did not feel it was real at all. It felt so dreamlike that when my husband arrived in the morning and I had two babies lying on me, I had no idea how they got there. And so your moments of life changing still coming in and anonymous one, my 97 year old mum moving in and the complete change of daily life that involves. I watch myself doing the most intimate tasks I never thought I'd do. I watch myself. That's, I suppose, the part of this where you feel like you're out of your own body. Well, absolutely the right thing to do. And on one level a joy. I've lost freedom and spontaneity. Is this me? Is this my life? It feels isolating. No name on that message but I'm very grateful you felt you

could share that and also that you're listening with us today on the programme. Now on Sunday the Scottish Footballer Writers Association gala dinner in Glasgow was the site of an unlikely walkout. You may have read about this. It came during a speech by Bill Copeland, a lawyer who works on the after-dinner speaking circuit, who was making what has been described as sexist, racist and homophobic jokes. Two tables of guests were so offended they walked out in protest. Journalist and author Gabriella Bennett was one of those who walked.

She's also co-chair of Women in Journalism Scotland and joins me now. Good morning, Gabriella. Good morning, Emma. What happened? The final speaker of the night began a speech and it very quickly became very offensive. There were a couple of jokes that involved women, talking about women in very derogatory terms. There was a joke about women from Paisley, a sexualized joke in which the, you know, an offensive sexualized joke in which the F word was used. And then came the racial slur. You know, this is about five minutes in, pretty jam packed with jokes of this nature.

Now, when the racial slur happened, I stood up and walked out. It was very difficult to sit through, to listen to. And I believe at the same kind of time, Ailey Barber from BBC, who was a guest at another table table stood up and she walked out as well. I mean I'm a big fan of trying to you know we're all grown-ups here trying to share as much as possible so people really know what was going on thank you for for doing some of that we've actually had to check with the powers that be here at the BBC what I am able to say from this dinner speech and what you're able to say and not able to say and as you mentioned swear words the f-bomb the c-bomb and you mentioned that particular remark about uh paisley uh the the joke i believe

was how do you know you've f'd a girl from paisley your dick starts itching um and then as you say it went on the the speaker went on to to make racial slurs Is this something that at this particular dinner, you know, you would be very surprised by? What's the tone, the tenor of this sort of gathering usually? I think it's important to point out that it's generally a really enjoyable night. It's a night that I've been to for a number of years and enjoyed myself. But there are off-colour jokes that are made by the speakers not as extreme as the ones that were made on Sunday night not as offensive

but I think it says a lot not not necessarily just about the speaker and the language that was used but the culture that invited that speaker to to make you know, that speech on the night. I think it says a lot about the state of print sports journalism in Scotland. We know this from Women in Journalism Scotland, the organisation that I'm co-chair of. Today, we launched a new campaign to tackle discrimination against women's print sports journalists. It's called The Sexist Shame of the Beautiful Game. We have research that we've recently done through Women in Journalism Scotland that prove that conditions are really quite hostile for women involved in the industry,

specifically for print women, women that work in print journalism. So our research shows that of 95 staff positions on print sports desks, three are filled by women, three of 95. There are no women sports editors. And the testimonies that those women tell us, and also women that work casual shifts, you know, freelancing, et cetera, in print sports journalism. Things really can be quite awful. Women are not promoted properly.

Women are discriminated against. There are huge problems over pay. We have an example of a woman who was offered a job, you know, at a company and a male counterpart with 10 years less experience was offered 10 grand more. I mean, this is constant. So for you, it's about painting that picture of the context and the culture that leads to that experience being a reality

that happened on Sunday evening. I should just say, we tried to contact Bill Copeland, the speaker, the afternoon speaker for a statement, but haven't heard anything yet. We do have this statement. The Scottish Footballers' Writers' Association apologises to anyone offended or upset by material from one of our after-dinner speakers

at the annual awards dinner on Sunday. We have agreed unanimously that this will act as a catalyst to review and improve the format of our future events to make it an enjoyable and inspirational event for all. Anyone offended or upset? What do you say to that? I've read the apology and I would use it as an opportunity to invite the Association to work with Women in Journalism Scotland on this

and to read our research, listen to what our members say life is like for them in the industry. And I feel very confident that we can work towards a brighter future for women. Do you feel this is a bit of a line in the sand moment? Because it's also, I did say this, but women and men walked out. You know, people have sat through those sorts of after dinner speeches and jokes for, in inverted commas, four years, haven't they? But walking out is different. I think that's a good point. And I think it's worth noting that I was the only woman on a table of men.

So I was with male sports writers and former footballers. And yes, so my male counterparts, they did get up and support me and walk out with me. And that's a really lovely feeling. But I think it's also worth noting that of a room of perhaps 800 people there are about eight people that left eight of 800 people that left so there's we're still in a huge minority of women and people that feel confident and empowered and emboldened enough to be able to get up and leave. Do you have confidence this is a moment that will lead to that sort of change

because you've described many things that do need to change there? In my time working in Women in Journalism Scotland I'm struggling to think of another situation where there has been so much uproar and I believe that we can use that to our advantage as an organisation. We can use it to kind of be galvanised as a community and to share what we already know is happening, but we can use it as a force for good and let people into how conditions really are. Gabriella Bennett, thank you very much for your time and taking us through, I suppose, as a bit of a correspondent of what happened, which many people may have seen the headlines about, but wouldn't know necessarily what went down at the event.

You're still getting in touch. Please do continue to do so over anything you hear. Maybe you were one of the other 800 people at that meal. Do get in touch if you are or were and I'll have a take on that, of course. But you're still getting in touch about those moments that you almost come out of yourself in your life that, good or bad, will stay with you for the rest of time, having just heard the series of events in Abby Morgan's life,

which is quite extraordinary. I'm sure you'll agree, a message that's just come in saying, my filmic moment was accepting the diagnosis of my 13-year-old with juvenile arthritis. It's changed our lives. Keeping family life going while seeing a health-related army of people resonates so much with me. My son has so much grit.

He inspires me. He's just finished his first Duke of Edinburgh expedition yesterday, and I'm so proud of him. Wow. Absolutely wonderful. Thank you for that message. And well done him. Now, written before Sarah Everard was kidnapped, raped and murdered by a serving police officer, and before Amber Heard and Johnny Depp's American court case began, a newly staged play taking the West End by storm for all the right reasons has never seemed so urgent. Prima Facie is a one-woman, one-act takedown of the legal system and how it fails so many of those who are sexually assaulted or raped and choose to take

their attacker to court. The blisteringly good Jodie Comer, the actor of course best known for playing Villanelle in Killing Eve, is making her West End debut playing plucky Tessa Ensler, a successful young criminal barrister who has until recently delighted in defending men accused of sexual crimes until everything changes in her life. The reviews have been astonishing and I should say that the play continues at the Harold Pinter Theatre until the 18th of June and there will be a National Theatre live screening in cinemas across the UK on July 21st. And I'm sure much more to come about this. But the woman behind the play, the playwright, Susie Miller, has just joined me in the studio.

Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for having me. Congratulations. I was lucky enough to see this last week. And I have to say the energy after, I mean, people out on the street and what I love, and I have to tell you a couple of things that happened. Two women just walked up to me. They may be listening right now. I certainly hope they are. Didn't even say, oh, hi, Emma, or I listened to the program. You're doing this on the program, right? When are you doing it? What day? And what are you going to talk about?

They were so passionate. I think women have been incredibly supportive and passionate. And when I wrote this play, I never saw that coming. I never saw that it would be this big. So I think it's hit a moment as well, a zeitgeist, and it's speaking. It's having a conversation, not just with women but with men. So it's no longer me. It's actually out there in the world, and it's creating a conversation that has to be had.

I also heard, and I know this will speak specifically to you as someone who used to work as a lawyer and trained as that, I heard one woman saying to another, I don't think I should be a lawyer anymore. I actually heard that outside of the theatre. Well, interestingly, also, I had some emails from some young women who said, I'm actually switching to law because I want to make a difference. So it goes both ways. But actually, just on that, there's been an amazing young barrister who's been working with me, giving me some consulting on UK law, which has been terrific. But her name's Danielle Manson, and after seeing the show and reading the play, she's taken all her friends to it,

and she's quite well known at the bar, the criminal bar. She's drafting some potential legislation, just some ideas about how you could go forward, because the question at the end of the play is something has to change, but it takes the lawyers to actually put their heads together to think, how could we change this? And this is what the community is thinking. So how do we actually look at that? And I think what's interesting about lawyers is until they're actually seeing their profession portrayed, you're so caught up in it, I know I was, that you don't actually see it from outside and how it's not actually serving its purpose. Why do you call it

prima facie? Prima facie is actually a legal term that's on the face of it. And on the face of it, we seem to accept what's happening. But actually, if you look beneath what's happening and the statistics of how few women actually, when they go to court, secure a conviction against the perpetrator. And also I used to be a defence lawyer, so I'm a massive belief in innocence until proven guilty. A fair trial is everything. But you can't say that the courts are looking for justice if they're not actually looking for justice for the victims of sexual assault as well.

And as the play says, the law has been defined by generations and generations of a particular type of white middle class, upper middle class male. And so the lived experience of women hasn't been incorporated into the design of what sexual assault is. It's more about the wrongly accused perpetrator. And I think we've gone beyond that now. And I think that this idea that someone is consenting unless they tell you they're not doesn't actually fit with women's lived experience. The drama works incredibly well, especially if you are hoping to appeal to lawyers

and perhaps, dare I say it, their egos. I don't know if anyone knows a lawyer with an ego, but, you know, because the first part of it is just electrically, and it's delightful. You know, she's there. She's a young lawyer you see her qualify you see her go through university she's from a working class background she's she's putting it all in and you're with her every step of that journey aren't you i think so

yeah i mean jodie does it beautifully oh she's just absolutely stunning please do pass on you know our congratulations but you're with her and she's delighting in the system of the law that allows her to win. And it's that winning, that adversarial side of it that's so appealing, isn't it? Well, it's fundamental to your court life. I mean, if you don't want to win, you probably don't want to go to court. And I think that the adversarial system really encourages you to win at all costs. And in fact, you're protected by the system saying you don't make the decision, you just put the best version of your client's legal story forward. And I think in order to win, you put the best story forward as passionately

and as convincingly as possible, and you use all the strategies available to you. But what you don't think is, what if the system that's actually allowing me to do this is actually a bit skewed towards a certain outcome? Yeah yeah if the system allows you to put both stories fairly forward and have them appraised yes um it does all change for her character because she herself is is attacked she has a date rape absolutely and a serious one and it's a it's again as a as something to watch as something to to see experience that's incredibly powerful but actually for me personally and i i don't know what others have said to you it's so emotional for me and powerful when she makes the decision to press charges and to go forward with the legal uh route and to go to the police because it's because of her love for herself

and who she is as a person that she is worried she will lose that person if she doesn't go forward with it. And when people have to make that decision, I imagine that's so much a part of the psychology of it. Absolutely. And I think she even knows what she's up against. But given the character that she is, she's fought really hard to be at the law

and she's embraced the law as the thing that allowed her to have power and respect. And if she now decides it doesn't give her justice, then how can she continue to play in that world? She'll lose who she is. So she does take it that next step. And two lawyers, and we spoke to the DPP, we spoke to police, we spoke to detectives. Department for Public Prosecution. Sorry, detectives. Department for Public Prosecution.

Sorry, yeah, the Department of Public Prosecution and many defence barristers and it was so interesting just, you know, hearing every different facet of that story really and what was interesting for me in Australia, there was one night where it was all lawyers in the audience, all female lawyers and afterwards there was a Q&A where they actually shared their experiences of sexual assault, rape, sexual harassment within the industry and they said, which was really

enlightening for me actually, when you've invested so much in a career like this because you don't just invest your time at university and the cost of actually establishing your practice, you also have invested years and years and years of not being at home with your partner or not socialising and you're just at that point where you could really take off. But the legal system at the bar requires you to be briefed by other people, to be led by more senior men. And if you speak up, you stand to lose everything. So there's more at stake in a way, which I hadn't realised. You think powerful women have less at stake, but in fact, they have a lot to lose. So that was something that was really interesting to me,

that they're not speaking up as much in that profession. They were saying, this is our workplace. So it was interesting just to sort of look at it from that perspective as well and see that she was really gutsy to speak up about this at all. Would you report something to the police of this nature? And it's so interesting, isn't it? Because we were asked this question, a detective, myself, a criminal barrister, and all of us went, I don't know. And I think that says a lot. If all people from all different facets, like defence lawyers, police, everyone. I mean, I've interviewed a former top police officer on this programme who said they wouldn't go to the police over issues to do with being a woman and sexual assault, those specific issues. Exactly. Because the law is actually skewed in a certain way that it's really about was there reasonable

belief in consent. There's not an assumption that you have to ask. So if a woman's walking down the street, for example, you know, unless someone says, no, I don't want this, there's more not, you know, that's not necessarily a reasonable belief. But if you don't give any action that indicates you don't, there's an assumption that you can rely on that. So I guess some of the possibilities that you could have is just to check in,

and so that the alleged perpetrator has to meet the requirement of assuming there's not consent until you have some consent, which doesn't seem such a big jump for women. We go, well, why wouldn't you do that? I mean, you wouldn't go up to a person in a nursing home and assume some sort of physical connection. And you cover very clearly how women, female jurors, judge other women as well.

And I think that's actually a phenomenon that's actually reflective of the community at large. I think what's really interesting is it's not just a legal problem because the juries are made up of the community. And I think if I look at my mother's generation and how they would laugh off sexual harassment, but even more than that is that, you know, there'd be a certain, if every one of us examined our previous life, you'd see some really near misses.

You'd see some moments that you weren't comfortable with at the very least. At the very, very least, I'd say 100% of women would find it hard to walk home in the dark and not be at least vigilant or afraid. And so, you know, like in my mother's generation, for example, they'd say, oh, things like that happened to me. But, you know, you don't make that much of a fuss. You just get on with it. This is a bit ridiculous.

So I think we've actually ingrained the kind of male view that it's not a terrible thing and that there's certain things that are a joke and that if you're not actually actively responding to someone's moves, sexual moves, that I think, you know, they had all sorts of words for girls that were sort of too cold or whatever. And you think, gee, that's how it's been framed, like for so long,

that there's some legitimate expectation of men to have sex with women if they want it or their desire overcomes it. I'm not going to get you to comment on the legals of this, but I thought it was also really pertinent, and we were talking about this on the program yesterday, about what we're seeing from the the trial between Johnny Depp and Amber Hood he's suing his ex-wife she's counter suing this is over defamation for an article in which she said she was a victim of abuse second time the pair have been in court of course there was a trial in 2020 here in the UK which Mr Depp lost his case against the Sun newspaper. But we've seen some of her testimony now.

And I wonder what you make of actually, again, almost the theatre of court, the way that's needed, and the way, you know, doctors have been called in, assessments have been given. What do you make of the way, of the structure of court, how women tell their stories? Well, it's really interesting, isn't it? Because I've been in court, so I've been in that theatre and I've been bloody minded when I was in it, trying to sort of win my case. But the story

is transformed in court. The narrative changes because you've had to practice it a bit and also because some of the peripheral details seem to be, they don't add up. And so suddenly someone that's traumatised, I think this is really interesting. I'm not taking a position on this case, obviously, but one of the things we learned during the, well, I learned writing the play, but also when I was talking to Jodie and we did a lot of work on this, is that with trauma, there's a lot of other things that happen. It's not just fight and flight, which is a very male phenomenon, because often women can't fight or flight because they're overpowered. But there's also this concept of freezing or friending. So that, you know, someone that you're on a date with that you really like, the psyche takes a

while to catch up with the fact that they're suddenly being violent with you when you have a relationship with them. I think the next step is also the friend or the, yeah, to actually try to befriend the person as a way of survival. So that doesn't look good on paper if you're going, let's have a cigarette now together after someone's hurt you or abused you. And I think that people would go, well, why didn't she just go away? Like, why didn't she just leave? So I think the psyche just tries to do these things to survive as a first priority. And I don't know whether that's always taken into account when you look at it through the lens of the courtroom, because the courtroom likes to sort of be able to do the chronology that doesn't have any sort of doubt

or inconsistencies. And one of the things the play says, of course, we can't jettison inconsistency in legal cases. It's really important. But can we use it as the litmus test for truth all the time when we look at trauma? And I think that's probably something that comes up a lot in domestic abuse and also sexual assault cases. And again, I reiterate that I am also an innocence until proven guilty person. But you can only really be strongly behind the law if you think it's taking into account the lived experience of women. Do you have faith it will change?

Do you have confidence that if I could say to you confidence that if, you know, I could say to you in, I don't know, a few years' time, would you and all those others that you talked about feel confident, feel good about taking your case, you know, if, God forbid, you were in that situation, if you had to go to the authorities? Well, one of the things that, you know, is really significant is when I was at law school, the battered women's syndrome came about. But before that, it was like, well, why did she put up with it all those years? Why didn't she just

leave? And now we think about that as sort of an archaic view that we think, of course, you know, when you're a battered woman, you're surviving as best you can until you can find a way to fight back that's not going to be a losing case. Like you actually can find a quiet time to actually fight back. And so that seems to be so like commonplace now. That's an example of change. Exactly, yeah. And I think that we would never have believed that before it came about. So even though I think this is a bigger issue because I think it runs

through everyone's relationships, what consent is and when it's there and when it's not and what sexual entitlement is and when it should be called out. And I also think that our communities do tend to run with certain views that are given to us through porn, through just general living, really, and conversation and Facebook or whatever, not Facebook but social media generally. So it's about a huge change and one of the things they're doing

is going out to schools. A whole group of barristers are volunteering to go out to schools to talk about consent and we don't talk to our sons or our daughters about consent necessarily not in a really nuanced manner it's a message here i reported to the police and a powerful man uh made sure no other witnesses would testify it was heartbreaking but the police did an amazing job one day when he does does it again, maybe then I will get justice. I was also minded to remember a report I heard with my colleagues on the Today programme a few weeks ago when they were reporting on the delays in the system as well,

that one woman said, you know, I just wanted the last three years of my life back, I wish I hadn't reported it. I've known a lot of women that have come up to me during this play and said I was one in three, which is one of the premises of the play. That sexual assault happened. To one in three women, is one of the premises of the play. That sexual assault happened. To one in three women, and not all of those reported, obviously, but I've had really powerful women come up and say,

rather than say, hey, I was in that situation, they go, I was one in three. And you think, yeah, I mean, it's amazingly how common it actually is, but how few are reported because the people that I do know that reported and even went to trial, they say, you know, it wasn't worth it for me, but I wouldn are reported because the people that I do know that reported and even went to trial, they say, you know, it wasn't worth it for me, but I wouldn't like to advocate that for you. And that's the responsibility side, that's the balance, you're showing that up. Have you been amazed by, how are you dealing with the success? How are you feeling? Well, you know,

I just feel, first of all, I feel relieved. Also, you know, as a feminist and someone that grew up, you know, in a period where women weren't really high on the list of plays being produced on women's stories, something like this. I just I don't even know. And a one woman play, no break, whole thing. Absolutely. So in that regard, it really gives me and I think a post Me Too world has allowed a play like this to have that kind of to occupy that space. And as a playwright, it's just a delight to think you can in any way trigger a conversation.

And that's all you ever hope to do is to trigger a conversation so that the solution can be found or just even the paradox is revealed and the experience of people, like people lean into the empathetic situation of thinking that could be my daughter, my sister, my cousin. And just finally finally how's jodie finding jodie is it is grueling and she's just won a big award of course on sunday night as well do you know how grueling it is you've seen it but she just i mean she sent me a note the other day saying this is the best thing i've ever done like i'm so happy what a debut i suppose the

west end yeah and i think you know i mean as she confided during the rehearsals of course she always wanted to get to the west end one day or hoped that she would be on stage one day. And she's such an incredible screen actor that this being her first big theatre experience. And you look at her and think she's made for the theatre. I mean, she's also made for screen. So she's kind of a double whammy, really. And I think it's astonishing how she's just stepped out on that stage and she has completely become a theatre person, like a really strong theatre actor. I'm just so proud of her. And the whole thing as well, of course the script

and the major part that we've talked about and the discussions that come from that, but also the setting. And the direction is astonishing. It's wonderful. It really is. Huge congratulations to you and the whole team. Thank you so much.

It's a lovely team. It's a real delight to hear about it behind the scenes and the thinking and what you have been trying to achieve and are achieving. Susie Miller is who you've been listening to. And Primer Face Sheep continues at the Harold Pinter Theatre until the 18th of June in London and that National Theatre live screening in cinemas across the UK on July 21st. I've got a completely different question to you. You may think it should concern the law, actually. But would you let your two year old walk to the shops on their own? The long-running hit Japanese TV show Old Enough is now available to stream on Netflix. You may have seen this. It follows children as young as two while their parents send them off on their first ever errand away from home, unknowingly followed by undercover TV camera operators. It has sparked debate about how much freedom we should give our toddlers. Let me just paint a picture. Some of the errands are very

simple. In one, a two-year-old toddled a few houses away to a dry cleaner's to drop off his sushi chef dad's work wipes. Took him a while, but he does get the job done. In another, a toddler only two years and 10 months old takes a 20-minute walk, minute walk to a grocery store, picks up three items for his mum, flowers, curry and fish cakes. And he does manage to do it. Dr. Elizabeth Kilby's on the line, a consultant clinical child psychologist. He's worked on that Channel 4 show, BBC's Asia business correspondent. Mariko, born in Japan, but currently living in Singapore with a British husband and three children, I'm told, age seven, four and one. Mariko, let me come to you first. Welcome to the programme. Hi, Emma.

Hello. This is not a new TV show. It's been going quite a long time in Japan. Do you remember when you first saw it and your reaction? Yeah, I mean, I've not actually watched a Netflix version of it. I've watched it growing up in Japan. And it actually didn't even occur to me that this would come as a surprise to many people outside of Japan because it was such a normal thing. And I mean, of course, it is important to emphasize that in Japan, the crime rate is really, really low. So a lot of primary school students walk to school on their own at the age of six, seven. And so, you know, it's not it's not really surprising in Japan, but it was actually my British colleague who actually sent me an article about it and saying, oh, no, this is ridiculous.

This is exploitation of, you know, entertainment of children's safety. And I was like, why? You know, it's actually safe in Japan. So, you know, go figure. Yeah, I mean, because that's the I suppose the interesting thing here is that, you know, Japanese children are often taught to be independent. And you tell us from a young age, most will take themselves to school using public transport from the age of five or so. Is that right? Yeah. So, I mean, you know, I live in Singapore, as you said. But when my daughter, my eldest daughter started primary school, you know, I think three, four months later, she actually, I was walking her to school and she actually said to me, is it okay if I walk on my own? You know, it's a straight street, five minute walk. And I actually thought, you know what, it's okay.

And in this day and age, I could actually message her form teacher to say, hey, she's walking on her own. You know, let me know she doesn't show up in 10 minutes. But I was kind of watching from afar. But when I actually mentioned that to my parents-in-law in the WhatsApp group chat, everyone was horrified. And, you know, they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not that's not okay. So I said to my husband, if you want to wake up at six o'clock and walk her to school because your parents are concerned fine by me but I'm actually quite okay with it so yeah it's a very cultural thing I guess yeah well let me bring in Elizabeth at this point Dr Elizabeth Kirby what do you make of this program and I suppose some of the questions that have come up from it? Good morning, yes. I mean, I think probably my reaction was similar to your in-laws.

I think it just really horrifies us, this idea, because I think in British culture, we really have quite a close parenting child relationship. It's hands-on. You know, we hear phrases like helicopter parenting and snowplow parenting. So I think there is a cultural approach to parenting that requires parents to have a level of oversight that would make most British people feel a little uncomfortable watching a two-year-old go into the dry cleaners.

Well, I mean, also just the capability of it. You've studied the secret life of or looked at the psychology. I suppose, do you think there's a pushback on that, Elizabeth? I'll bring Mariko back in in just a moment. But actually, it's us who need to give children more responsibility or trust them a bit more if they are actually capable of this. I would. I mean, one of the biggest things I learned from watching Secret Lives was the resilience actually of children, particularly young children and they go through a real emotional roller coaster every day but that ability to problem solve, to bounce back, to get back up never ceased to amaze me and so I think

there is something about the perception of risk and the reality of risk and I think many parents parent because of a perception of what may or may not be safe and I and I think a lot about this in terms of the digital world there is a perception now that the real world is unsafe and that kind of being online as long as your child is in your house and you've got your eyes on them they're online they're safe well the reality of that could be completely around the other way so i do think i would like to encourage parents to see the real world where you can actually watch your children interacting as a much safer place than we think it is although i am marico just imagining uh you know those who work

in in my local shop if they would actually serve my four-year-old who'd walked around the corner on their own with his bit of money i mean i'd love love to i mean i'm still really hoping for the day for a cup of tea, but that's quite far off. It involves boiling water, of course. Mariko, do you think that, you know, are you surprised by some of the response to this in the UK and some of those conversations your friends have let you into?

I have to say, you know, I would do this in Singapore because I know that Singapore's crime rate is just as low as, if not lower than Japan would I do it in the UK if we were living there maybe not um I do also want to say that I probably wouldn't send my two-year-old um you know I've only done it with you know six seven-year-old especially during COVID lockdowns and so on you know when there was a limitation of gathering I might send you know the two of them in a taxi and say, sorry, that's my son. They're trying to come into the room. Just trying to exert their independence. Yes.

But yeah, it's fascinating. But at the same time, it is really heartwarming to see how they react, you know, when they actually managed to achieve it. And, you know, I do wonder if I said no to my daughter when she asked, is it okay if I go alone and if I said no no no it's too dangerous I'm gonna walk you to school you know how would that make her feel you know and I did actually say to her I do this because I trust you and you know I want you to just walk straight to school and you know tell the teacher if you had any issues um and yeah it's a fine balance but I would like to continue doing so. And it's actually interesting how, you know, judgmental it can be as well, some of the reaction, because that's something that I've experienced

in Japan as well. You know, as you know, in Japan, a lot of mothers quit work after giving birth. And, you know, I've received a lot of feedback like, oh, my gosh, I can't remember, I can't believe you keep working. And, you know, why don't we trust our own instinct to do what we think is the right thing for our children? Yeah, trust grown women as well as, I suppose, very small children might be a good place to start in this.

Well, it's absolutely fascinating. And as you say, Mariko, a lot of people talking about it because they've got very strong views indeed. And we wanted to tap into that. Mariko Oi, BBC's Asia business correspondent, we'll let you get back to one of your children who certainly wants your attention right now. And Dr. Elizabeth Kilby, huge thanks to you these instances. I think some of you also came in touch about your experiences when you were sort of five, six and seven. There are differences, of course.

I just wanted to read a couple of messages that have come in during the course of some of our discussions throughout today's programme. Of course, a range of very strong discussions. David got in touch off the back of my previous discussion with the playwright Susie Miller,

talking about that one woman play with Jodie Comer in it, discussing rape, sexual assault and the legal system. David says, the playwright Susie Miller talking about that one woman play with Jodie Comer in it and discussing rape sexual assault and the legal system David says hi the guests refer to date rape in the item earlier as a serious rape I need to challenge this no one rape is less serious than another and it should always only be referred to as rape rape is rape there is no lesser kind I'm a recently retired former head of safeguarding in the police this demonstrates how people can easily easily get terminology wrong, which has the consequences of downplaying the rape. So a bigger point there about how language is used.

And another message that came in, you may recall just before we were talking with regards to this dinner that you may have read about that happened on Sunday evening, the Scottish Football Writers Association gala dinner in Glasgow. There was an unlikely walkout, an unexpected walkout because of a speech by a lawyer who works on the after dinner speaking circuit who made what's been described as sexist, racist and homophobic jokes. I did say to anyone else who's at the meal, of course, get in touch. Pauline says, I was at the dinner. The sexism was atrocious. There was also, I'd like to highlight, racist, sectarian and homophobic content too. The walkouts actually weren't visible to me. I was at a table, though, where no one laughed at the offensive content.

No one applauded Bill Copeland, who we still don't have a statement from. And a table of young male footballers behind me also seemed uncomfortable and unsure about the content. This is an organisation that only allowed women to join fairly recently, says Pauline on email. Can you imagine what it was like before there were any women in the room? It still sounds like there are many more men as well, but you're making the point there that they also felt uncomfortable. So thank you so much, Pauline, for getting in touch, as always, for your thoughts today. And I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. Hello, Woman's Hour listeners. I'm Dr. Michael Mosley. And in my podcast, Just One Thing, I'm investigating some quick, simple and surprising ways to improve your health and life. From eating some dark chocolate. That was really good.

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