Woman's Hour - Abortion in America, Stamping out sexual harassment in the workplace, Talking to young people about drugs

Episode Date: June 8, 2021

Last month the US Supreme Court agreed to consider a major challenge to reproductive rights, saying it will look at the state of Mississippi’s bid to enforce a ban on almost all abortions after the 15th week of pregnancy. Two days later the Republican governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, signed into law a six-week abortion ban. Why are attempts to reduce women’s access to these services being made? Last week one young Texan woman decided to use her platform at her high school graduation to give a speech on the so-called ‘Heartbeat Bill’. A speech that has gone viral. Emma speaks to 18 year-old Paxton Smith, and to Amanda Taub, a reporter for the New York Times.Last week we heard from Lord Heseltine who was unhappy about being forced as a Member of the House of Lords to attend an online course around sexual harassment entitled 'Valuing Everyone Training’. In response, we received a text: ‘I’m a young female staffer and did the Valuing Everyone course last autumn. It wasn’t bad, but wouldn’t stop people mistreating colleagues/staff and isn’t a replacement for a proper HR system.' We speak to Stella Chandler, Focal Point Training who runs similar courses, and Deeba Syed, a lawyer who set up and manages the sexual harassment at work advice line at Rights of Women on what needs to be done to stamp out sexual harassment in the workplace. Daniel Spargo-Mabbs was a popular, intelligent and charismatic 16 year-old boy. But one evening in January 2014, he never came home. Dan had gone to an illegal rave and taken a lethal dose of the drug MDMA. Seven years later, his mother Fiona Spargo-Mabbs, is one of the country’s leading drug education advisors, and has just published the book ‘I Wish I’d Known: Young People, Drugs and Decisions; a Guide for Parents and Carers'. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Frankie Tobi

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now you may remember last week we heard from the former Deputy Prime Minister, Lord Heseltine, who was unhappy about being forced, now as a member of the House of Lords, to attend an online course that covered the issue of sexual harassment and inappropriate behaviour between colleagues entitled Valuing Everyone. He felt that it wouldn't stop the behaviour of those who had been behaving inappropriately

or might be. I've now spoken to the young female parliamentary staffer who texted us during that programme saying she too had done the course, felt it wasn't bad but that it also wouldn't stop people mistreating colleagues or staff and isn't a replacement for a proper human resources system. We'll hear from her shortly, but I want to hear from you. What would stop people behaving inappropriately? What would stop sexual harassment in the workplace? Do mandatory courses do any good? Some would say they're all the rage. Are they making a difference? What is your view? What is your experience? You can text Womans Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We're at BBC Womans Hour or email us through our website. On today's programme, in light of this, I'll be speaking to someone who does run workplace

behavioural courses that include sexual harassment. And she has some tales to tell, including the meeting where the HR manager of a firm said the company should banish compliments, to another where she trained 30 of a company's most senior employees, one of whom thought nothing of saying to a colleague, your boobs look nice in that top. That was in 2019. He thought this was great and viewed himself as the life and soul of the office.

Of course, a lot of people haven't been in an office for the last 15 months. That may or may not have changed your view. You may or may not view that as an advantage in light of this conversation. But it's also striking today, and I'm sure many of you will have seen, that the actor Keira Knightley in a new interview has said that sexual harassment is such a problem, she doesn't know a single woman who hasn't been sexually harassed, including herself. But today we're talking specifically about the workplace. What would shift the dial? Tell us on 84844.

Also on today's programme, we'll be hearing from the young woman whose speech upon leaving American High School has gone viral and tell you why. But first, it has been announced that Colin Pitchfork, who was the first murderer to be convicted using DNA evidence, can be released. That's been confirmed by the Parole Board. Colin Pitchfork was jailed for life for raping and murdering 15-year-olds Linda Mann and Dawn Ashworth in Leicestershire in the 80s. Pitchfork has spent 33 years in prison. He was last denied parole in 2018. But the Parole Board said it was satisfied Pitchfork was suitable for release, which is subject to certain licence conditions.

The case has brought to mind the Parole Board's decision in 2018 to release the serial rapist John Warboys, which caused widespread outrage at the time before being reversed. A source close to the Justice Secretary, Robert Buckland, says the government will be taking legal advice to explore the use of the reconsideration mechanism. The parole board mechanism was introduced in 2019 to give people the right to ask for a decision to be looked at again if they felt it was procedurally unfair or irrational. South Leicestershire MP Alberta Costa,

who had met with the parole board over Pitchfork's case, has told the BBC he is appalled at the news. Let's talk to Dr Charlotte Proudman now, a family lawyer. First of all, your take on this. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. I think this is absolutely horrendous, this decision to release Colin Pitchfork. I think it couldn't be worse timing either, given the prevalence of violence against women and girls. And supposedly this government is taking a strong stance and working to end such violence against them. How on earth can the public feel safe in a context of this? And I think it's important that your listeners remember, perhaps, the crimes that he did commit. In 1983, he left his baby son sleeping in the back of his car

and raped and strangled 15-year-old Linda Mann. And then he drove home and put his son to bed. Three years later, he raped and murdered Dawn Ashworth when she was just 15 years of age. And at the time, the judge said when he was sentenced to those killings, they were particularly sadistic and he doubted Pitchfork would ever be released. And frankly, I am astonished that he is going to be released. And surely the government has to invoke the reconsideration mechanism and relook at this decision of the parole board. This just cannot be right. We approached the parole board for a statement and they gave a very detailed summary of Colin Pitchfork's case, but they ended it by

saying, after considering the circumstances of Colin Pitchfork's case, but they ended it by saying, after considering the circumstances of Colin Pitchfork's offending, the progress made while in custody and the evidence presented at the hearing, the panel was satisfied Colin Pitchfork was suitable for release. Are you saying there should be nothing that can satisfy in light of the original crimes? I find it unbelievable that they are completely satisfied that he is suitable for release, particularly even looking at the conditions that are going to be imposed on his licence,

which means that he has to comply with these conditions in order for him to live amongst the public, supposedly safely. The conditions being, for instance, that there's limits on contact with children and there's restrictions on his use of technology. How is the parole ward, how is there going to be any monitoring of these types of conditions which are so stringent at the moment? Given further austerity measures and concerns about public resources and financing, there are already many cases in which offenders are not being properly monitored and scrutinised and crimes are being committed which are going undetected. And when they are, very little is done about it. And given the significant risks, certainly that he posed when these crimes were committed, at the time it was said, the offense, that he thought about sex a lot and he used violence and excessive force

in sex to demonstrate power and control over women. To me, and having worked with violent offenders, I find it hard to believe that someone who's committed some of the most heinous acts can show and demonstrate that they are safe some 30 years later to live amongst society, effectively on their own, with very limited monitoring. This is not about training, in my view. It's not about undertaking some courses in prison. It's about actually changing a very deeply embedded mindset where power and control is used over women in a very violent and aggressive manner,

and not just towards women, but towards young girls. But I'm just wondering, there must be a whole host of reasons why the Parole Board are satisfied. I mean, in terms of looking at what happened with John Warboys, we know that Nick Hardwick, to remind everyone that the chair of the parole board then resigned as judges overturned that decision to release the rapist John Warboys from jail. Do you think this decision will lead to the chair of the parole board now, Caroline Corby, having to step down? Or do you think this is going to be looked at in a different way if things moved on? I mean, I don't know. I don't have a crystal ball. I can't say what's going to happen. But I do think that the government, I hope, certainly will look at this very closely and look at whether this should be reconsidered and perhaps whether there should be further reconsideration to the way in which parole boards manage and make decisions when it concerns significant risks of this nature when releasing very violent offenders. It's also important to

note that of course parliament can change the law and MPs are going to be voting on a government proposal that premeditated child killers are considered for whole life terms when they're convicted and sentenced. So that means that, for example, if they are convicted, say, to 15 years or 30 years, then that person would have to serve that length of time without any consideration for early release. It's a very important moment, as you describe, and people also needing to have faith and will be very aware of what the government have said about being tough on crime to use their words and to paraphrase we'll see how this plays out is it something though as your perspective from being you know a lawyer does it make you lose

faith in the parole board and I suppose the systems around justice because you're working in this system it does it does make me lose faith in the justice system because, you know, I spend an awful lot of time with victims of rape and sexual violence, and some of whom I'm encouraging to report some of these violent crimes to the police in the hope that it will be taken seriously and that there'll be a proper justice system process when they'll be listened to and offenders will be brought to justice and then you see examples of this case amongst of course many others that are hitting the headlines and it does beg the question as to whether the justice system is fit for purpose or whether it's

so deeply flawed and broken that victims are being unheard they're not being listened to and offenders in effect are serving some well in this, 33 years in prison and then being released. Those 15 year old girls will never have their lives back. Dr. Charlotte Browman, thank you for joining us. We'll keep you updated on that case. As I asked you at the beginning, we were talking about behaviour in the workplace and ways of improving that. And if online courses are the way to do that and you have very strong in your views about whether this should be, they are helpful or not. And also what could be the way to ensure people behave appropriately towards each other. Many messages coming in, I should say,

many of you also exercising the right not to share your name, which is completely fine. These courses are absolute rubbish. I've had blatant sexist language used to me in an open setting in front of others. And when I reacted and stood up for myself, a complaint was made about my behaviour. Education has to start right from the beginning, that both genders should be treated fairly and equally. Sexism is woven into the fabric of our society from cradle to grave but a very different

view here on these sorts of courses. I work in the care sect Emma. I have regularly had to do online courses to do with all aspects of my role. This includes anti-discrimination and equality and diversity training. Though often annoying and. They do raise my awareness of problems and allow me to reflect on how I behave in my workplace. I see this as a good thing. In terms of how to deal with this sort of behaviour away from courses, written warning first, read this message, then dismissal, irrespective of rank or position. And Claire says having more women in positions of authority would help to stop sexual assault in the workplace. Keep your views and experiences coming in on 84844.

Also on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. But while a Democrat, with a Democrat in the White House in the form of Joe Biden, turning our attention now to America, you could be forgiven for thinking women's access to abortion services had perhaps increased

after a strong pull in the opposite direction under President Trump. And yet, last month, the U.S. Supreme Court agreed to consider a major challenge to reproductive rights, saying it will look at the state of Mississippi's bid to enforce a ban on almost all abortions after the 15th week of pregnancy. Two days later, the Republican governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, signed into law a near total ban on abortions, prohibiting the procedure at six weeks when most women don't even know that they're pregnant. This is known as the so-called heartbeat bill. Well, last week, one young Texan woman, 18-year-old Paxton Smith, decided to use her platform at her high school graduation to give a speech on abortion rights in her state, a speech that has gone viral. Let's have a listen.

I am terrified that if my contraceptives fail, I am terrified that if I am raped, then my hopes and aspirations and dreams and efforts for my future will no longer matter. I hope that you can feel how gut wrenching that is. I hope you can feel how dehumanizing it is to have the autonomy over your own body taken away from you. And I'm talking about this today, on a day as important as this, on a day honoring

12 years of hard academic work, on a day where we are all gathered together, on a day where you are most inclined to listen to a voice like mine, a woman's voice, to tell you that this is a problem, and it's a problem that cannot wait, and I cannot give up this platform to promote complacency and peace when there is a war on my body and a war on my rights

a war on the rights of your mothers a war on the rights of your sisters a war on the rights of your daughters we cannot stay silent thank you huge applause there. I can speak to Paxton herself in Dallas, Texas, where I believe it's just after four o'clock in the morning and you have stayed awake or got up for us. Paxton, hello. Hi.

Thank you so much for talking to us today. How did that feel, delivering that speech? Because I understand it wasn't the one you were planning to give. It's hard to say how I felt in the moment. In the moment, I was very calm and I was just focused on getting the words out. Beforehand, before making the speech, honestly, I was dreading getting up there and saying that. I did not expect the positive response and certainly not it going viral when I was going to get up there. Before we get to the response, what had you been planning on saying and what made you change your mind?

Initially, I had planned to make a speech about media and content and how it's affected the way that I view the world. However, after the passing of the heartbeat bill, I felt like it was time to say something about it and do something about it and did you tell anyone in advance you were going to do it I don't know do you need to get these things approved by by teachers you mentioned your coaches you came on stage you're obviously very close to a lot of those you were either you know being schooled by or being educated with I only told my parents ahead of time. And what did they make of it? Were they in any way concerned? Well, of course they were concerned. I imagine as a parent that it, I'm not a parent. I imagine for them that it would be scary for your child to go up there and put their face on such a

controversial topic. So they were apprehensive at first, but I told them that this is something that I really cared about and I had weighed the consequences and that was something I was willing to take on. Because of course, being in Texas and with the context of what we're just talking about, the rights of those who feel abortion is wrong and also will be in support of what you've spoken out against will be the types of people who perhaps you know very well or have come across and also are very vociferous in their views. Is that something that you had been concerned by,

speaking out because of that context, aware of their strong feelings in America? Yes, it was a little bit nerve-wracking. And the response, you you say has been positive it's been overwhelmingly positive can you give us a flavor of that has it been people your own age or people been getting in touch with you yeah so many people right after graduation it was staff and students and parents who were reaching out to me. And then within a couple of days, it was local news organizations and the national and then international, which is why I'm here right now at 4 a.m. in the morning. And people have been reaching out to me from all over the world, just saying thank you for using that platform to talk about that.

Do you have optimism that things will go in the other direction from your perspective with what you want to happen? Because of course, as I said in my introduction, people may be thinking, certainly here in the UK with Joe Biden in the White House, things would be going back towards women having more access to these sorts of services with a Democrat there. I certainly hope so. The state governments have more control over that than the federal government does so Biden does not have necessarily the final say on the situation but I'm hoping for the best and what are you going to do now I mean it's very it must be overwhelming and also incredible in many ways to have gone viral like this with your graduation

speech I know Hillary Clinton has also uh put a message about it on social media and lots of other people have been sharing it. Do you want to go into campaigning, politics? What's your future looking like? It's hard to say at the moment. Right now, in the fall, I'm going to college at the University of Texas at Austin, most likely to study music. I do see a future working in social change, but I'm not sure in what capacity yet. Okay. Well, you don't have to have all the answers yet. I certainly didn't at your age, but now it has gone viral. Is there anything you want to do with this moment in time? I know you're talking to us, you're raising awareness of your point of view and lots of others who have been

in touch to agree with you, but is there anything you're thinking of doing with this with this unexpected moment it's hard to say really i just want to get the message out there and i want to bring this to the front forefront of politics because i think this is something that's on a lot of women's minds but it's something that's difficult for a lot of people to speak up about and your friends what do they make of it are you are you a hero now to them that you've gone viral and you you you know ripped up the original speech oh I they have been incredibly supportive but I don't know if they have changed their view of me to be a hero. I think we're still just, just friends. And your, your friends, your, especially your female friends,

do they all have the same view, you know, being schooled in Texas, or do you have a variety of views amongst those your age? If there is a variety of views with, among my friends, it hasn't been vocalized to me they've all been very supportive okay that's just interesting to us because it is such a you know it's such an emotional and emotive topic and i know it's it's politically charged in america in a way it's not quite charged in the same way here so it's very interesting to hear from your your age group as well thank you for staying awake and talking to us just after four o'clock you get some rest and uh And thank you for kind of bringing to life the scenes behind that speech, which some of you may have seen. Do check it out if you haven't. Paxton Smith there. Let's talk now to Amanda Torb, a

reporter for The New York Times. Amanda, I talked there about the sort of political and emotional charge that this issue still has. It is something that in the UK, we don't access or come to in quite the same way, do we? That's right. So I'm American, but I live in London. And it's been really striking to me that this is just not a politically salient issue here in the way that it is in the United States. People here treat it as a matter of sort of private health decisions, as opposed to national politics. And where, well, as I say, where we've just described where the US is in some states at this at the moment. You know, how is this going to keep going? What's the direction of travel?

So I think that there is a real divide between different states. You know, there are so many things in the United States right now where there is a partisan divide between Republican-dominated states and Democrat-dominated states. This is another one of those areas. So there are a number of states, including Texas, that have passed very restrictive abortion bans. Some of them are more administrative about, you know, what doctors can practice, et cetera. And those have already succeeded in really curtailing abortion access. But a number of states have also passed these highly restrictive laws, like the one in Texas, that are more restrictive than is currently allowed under U.S. constitutional law.

But they have done this in anticipation of the Supreme Court striking down Roe v. Wade, as many people think might happen after the court hears an abortion rights case this fall. Roe v. Wade, of course, 1973, what led to women having rights to abortion in the first place, often thrown around as a political football between two sides. It's interesting to see that the abortion rates in the US are dropping. Is that the restrictions having an impact? It's very difficult to tell, particularly right now with what's going on in the country. So obviously, a number of things affect the rates at which people have abortions. One is how often they have unwanted pregnancies. But what is extremely clear is that there are a number of states where already

abortion has become so difficult to obtain because providers are so rare that it's functionally extremely difficult for women to obtain one. So we just don't really know yet, but I suppose it's one of those figures to use or certainly look at in the context of what we're talking about. To come back to this so-called heartbeat bill, the Texas legislation, it was strongly opposed from medical and legal communities, I understand. Absolutely. So there are a couple of reasons for that. One is that simply as a matter of what this bill does within a pregnancy, it's incredibly restrictive. So six weeks of pregnancy or when a so-called heartbeat is detected is so early that most women don't even know that they're pregnant. You know, that is, it's six weeks from your last

period. But of course, for much of that time, no conception has even occurred. And so it would, in effect, ban all abortions because to know you're pregnant, have time to schedule a private lawsuit, right? For anyone who believes that a medical professional or other individual has encouraged or facilitated an abortion after six weeks, it allows them to sue, which is a real kind of Wild West situation. And what would be likely to happen, according to the doctors and legal experts I've spoken to, is just an unbelievable chilling effect, not just on abortion access, but on access to a lot of kinds of reproductive health care, because people will be potentially concerned about liability under this law. Yes, I think that's a very important part of it to bring up, because there is this huge concern that it will open the floodgates to harassment and frivolous lawsuits. And as you say, the wider effect that could have. Do all these changes then that are coming in state by state, do they affect all women equally? Absolutely not. So it's always been the case in the United States, even when abortion was not legal, that wealthier, more privileged,

better connected women were able to quietly obtain abortions, not always, certainly, but far more easily than women who were poorer, who were not white, who did not have the kind of connections and resources that they needed. Obviously, in the United States, because most health care is private, you already need money and a certain amount of resources to get any kind of care. But what every expert I've spoken to about this issue has said is that we should be prepared for this to make the people who are already most vulnerable, even more vulnerable. Do you think that Joe Biden will do something about this in the sense of, I understand the way

that it doesn't necessarily fall to him and state by state do what they're doing. But is this something that you think he should and will speak up about in a meaningful way? I'm sure he'll speak up about it. But as Paxton mentioned earlier, and as you've just said now, this is a legally complicated issue for the president to deal with from a national level. So if Roe v. Wade is overturned, then there will be, and there are a number of states that have, they call them trigger laws, where if Roe v. Wade falls, they're immediately triggered to go into effect with extremely restrictive abortion bans. And then there will be new litigation over those. There will be new political wrangling. And maybe eventually those laws will fall. Maybe eventually there will be a new legal equilibrium. But because of the nature of pregnancy, there will be many people who fall through the cracks who, you know, it will be unclear what health care services they are able to get at the time when they need them most. Just finally, from your perspective, how important do you think it is that you hear from, we hear from younger women on this, like Paxton? Oh, I think it's incredibly important. I think that this is something that has been a major cause for every, you know, generation of the

women's rights movement in the United States since it began, really. But something that I think is particularly important right now, and we see all over the world, is that large mass movements led by young women demanding reproductive rights are having an effect not only on this issue, but on the status of women and the structure of politics in their countries more generally. So I've reported on that in Poland, in Ireland, in Argentina. This is an incredibly important issue. And I think that young women are rightly recognising, as Paxton mentioned in her speech, that this is something that does not just affect a single medical or reproductive decision. It affects women's position in society.

Amanda Taub, thank you to you. And thank you again to Paxton Smith. Well, we're talking now, and I've got so many messages on this. I'll come to them now. But just to remind you, if you heard our programme last week where we were talking to the former Deputy Prime Minister, Lord Heseltine, he was unhappy about being forced now as a member of the House of Lords to attend an online course that covered the issue of sexual harassment and inappropriate behaviour between colleagues.

That course is entitled Valuing Everyone. He felt it wouldn't stop the behaviour of those who had been behaving inappropriately. And in response to that conversation, I received this text on the programme. I'm a young female staffer and I did the Valuing Everyone course last autumn. It wasn't bad, but it wouldn't stop people mistreating colleagues or staff and isn't a replacement for a proper HR system. Well, we decided to speak to her and I did so earlier this morning just before coming on air. And I asked her whether she thinks the Valuing Everyone course works. Well, I think I think it's the best of intentions and it's a useful programme. But it's premised on the idea that people misbehave and mistreat their colleagues because they don't know any better. And in some cases that might be true. They might not know certain jokes make others feel uncomfortable.

But I think in other cases they know and they just don't care. So sitting through a three hour training video telling you not to do that probably isn't going to change your behaviour in the long term. So what Michael Hazeltine was saying rang true for you? Yes, yes, just in that on its own it probably isn't going to be very effective. I know that you're quite new in this job and actually the year that you've joined working in Parliament you haven't really been in Parliament because everything's been on Zoom or on video calls? Yeah, not very much. No, and in some ways, this is a difficult question then to answer, but speaking to your colleagues, do you have a sense of what would shift the dial?

What would change it? Well, I think there just needs to be a long-term culture shift in the organisation, as you would need in any other large group of people like this. So I think it probably depends on people routinely calling out this behaviour. And when something comes up, there need to be real consequences. And I think if people have a reason to think before they say or do something inappropriate,

then we'll see real change long term. I know that you will probably have spoken to colleagues about the Conservative MP Rob Roberts' suspension of six weeks after he was found guilty of sexually harassing a member of his staff. He has apologised. Such a recent example, has that made you feel that there is change likely or that people do feel like they could speak out with consequences? Yes, I think so. It took quite a lot of time, but I understand this is a new process, so I'm hoping that it'll be sped up in future. But, yeah, it's certainly helpful to see that, you know, staffer made a complaint and that eventually this was all investigated

and there now is a real consequence. And I know that they're looking to close the loophole. That means that there isn't an automatic recall petition. I mean, there probably should be. Yes, well, and that's subject to a bigger debate. Do you think people should have to do these courses at all? And that was the other point that Lord Heseltine was saying, the compulsion to do it.

It's for Lords, interestingly, and not for MPs. Do you think you should have to do these courses? I think it wouldn't hurt. Honestly, it feels a bit like going to university when for the first couple of weeks you have to sit through all these induction courses. And I know that's probably not how MPs want to feel when they've just been elected,

but I don't see what harm it would do. Just on its own, it's probably not enough. A final question. I sincerely hope nothing happens to you, but say something. Would you feel comfortable with these new systems going to human resources to try and make a complaint, make your voice heard? to you, but say something. Would you feel comfortable with these new systems going to human resources to try and to make a complaint, make your voice heard?

I think so, yes. I mean, there are posters and signs everywhere listing all the numbers that you can call. So I'd probably start with one of those and get advice and go from there. Many, many messages. A very interesting one that's just come in. Thank you to her who made anonymous talking to us. I've experienced sexual harassment at work. This is also an anonymous message and a resulting investigation. And the investigation itself was one of the single most stressful experiences of my life.

My workplace did have robust human resource processes in place, but as a result, I was placed under scrutiny and had to relive all of the degrading incidents in detail. I don't feel that my workplace had enough in place of terms of equality training in the first place. A workshop led by trained specialists would have made a difference to me. Yes, there would have been eye rolls and many of my colleagues would have felt it a waste of time. Would it have changed the harassers' attitudes? Probably not, but maybe, this is very interesting, it would have changed the attitude of those who witnessed my

harassment and did nothing. I did stand up for myself, but I needed more support in the early stages. We had a spokesperson from UK Parliament saying both houses offer a range of resources to ensure everyone working in parliament is able to recognise bullying, harassment and sexual misconduct and feels confident taking action to tackle and prevent it. And talking about that particular course, they said 96% of those who have attended it say that the training was very good or good. But another very different view on this, just to share before I come to my guests, saying, look through the other end of the telescope. I teach men and women to stand up for themselves, not to look on themselves as victims. I had 52 years of experience in the workplace and never had a problem I couldn't handle myself.

Some very different views coming in on this. Let's talk now to Stella Chandler, who's Director of Development at Focal Point Training, which does run workplace behavioural courses that include sexual harassment. And Deba Syed, who's a lawyer specialising in sexual harassment, who sets up and manages the sexual harassment work advice phone line for the charity Rights of Women. Deba, I'll come to you just in a moment. But Stella, you do look at these and run these courses and look at workplaces. What sort of employers are getting in touch in the first place and wanting them? We do absolutely all

sorts of employers. And we're delighted to see that a number now are actually coming to us before something has happened. Up until very recently, I think most times we were working with organisations. It had been triggered by a situation, but now we are seeing people recognising what we need to do. And you've had some excellent points made by your contributions and coming in. There's some real key things in there. Yes, we do absolutely recognise this needs to be, any training provided absolutely needs to be part of a number of activities taking place. For example, whenever we're working with a client, we talk right at the beginning and how they're going to position it, how they're going to invite people to any sessions.

The key role that senior managers must take in role modelling, how everything must be followed up. And yes, we agree, there do need to be consequences. And you do need confident HR and senior people that can handle those things if they happen. But that's when, you know, if we've got to that point, we need to roll back and think, what could we have done to make sure that people understand what's appropriate and what's not? The key challenge we see and the difference is is absolutely getting people to open up discussions and talk together about what's appropriate and what's not. But what about the idea that we've been having

throughout this discussion, that those who are going to do it and behave badly, behave inappropriately, will do it anyway and they can't see the issue? I know that i mentioned one of your stories i hope you didn't mind me borrowing at the top but you're talking uh at the top of the program you're talking to a group of people who are very senior and one of them said thought nothing of saying your boobs look nice in that top i mean can you make somebody who thinks that's a compliment see that that isn't appropriate for the workplace tell us about that or those sorts

of situations to say i do know that person realized what they hadn't really thought about was the impact that had he had thought it was a bit of a joke he had assumed that the person receiving it would feel complimented and flattered and in the session we talked about it and it's interesting as well you commented about compliments because I'm fascinated by that compliments are hugely important to us all and our self-esteem however it's how they're said and done and we actually explored the differences in doing that and I do know that that particular person sought the other person out has apologized and has appreciated that actually no no, ran the other way. That was not an appropriate or a funny thing to say to that person.

And that was through doing a course? Yes, it was. It was a session I ran myself. Let me just bring in Debra at this point, because I think it's also important. You know, the course that Lord Heseltine was talking about was an online course uh you're talking about courses in person where there's much more perhaps discussion uh which is a different way of doing it again deba what i know that you set up your phone line not that long ago tell us about what you hear from women because i know that it's it's a major issue from the perspective you come at this from yeah absolutely so we are a frontline service in all of this. And what we see are women who come forward are put in this extraordinarily difficult position when they've

been harassed by somebody, usually in a position of authority, usually with a position of power over them. They don't know what to do. Should they come forward? Should they not come forward? And the women who do come forward overwhelmingly are treated with nothing but hostility and suspicion. And what we hear is really serious on the line. Nearly half of all our callers last year told us that they had been sexually assaulted in the workplace. And two thirds of those women as well told us that when they after they had been harassed, they experienced retaliatory behavior from the perpetrator and the organization so they're put in this extremely difficult position

and i think we are still laboring under this delusion i think what was quite interesting about what michael heseltine heseltine said was um this is merely a fact of women just going, popping along to HR and explaining to them what happened. And HR are going to fix it and make it all better when that is not what we see in practice at all. Usually when women come forward to HR, that is when the problems really begin for them. Well, that came out in one of those messages, didn't it, Diba, that I read aloud. And there's one here just again saying, I worked in a company where it was an open secret that older and more senior men groped and sexually harassed younger women. He did this on work and as yet women were too scared to report it

because they'd seen it backfire on junior women who had ended up leaving the company. The senior men in the company knew about it, did nothing to stop him. They protected each other. What do you advise to people who don't want to go through the legal side of this or not necessarily even want to go to HR? Do you have to, I don't know, devise new ways of trying to get people to be on your side, to have that supportive culture? I mean, it shouldn't be your job to do it, should it? Well, I have to be really honest with the women

who call us about what the risk they are taking in coming forward because in my experience if you do come forward and there is a very high likely possibility that you are going to be leaving your job either unwillingly or willingly either through a war of attrition where the employer just simply wears you down because they have more resources they have access to sophisticated lawyers and they can intimidate you into dropping your claim or dropping your allegations. And so, so most women, lots of we don't talk about this very often, but lots of women just simply just leave the organisation because they can't work there with the perpetrator. It's simply untenable for them to carry on. But we don't collect any

numbers on this. There's no data. We don't really know how many women have left an organisation because there is somebody unpleasant making it difficult for them to work there. Or they have the option of coming forward. And this is why I think there is a really important place for training, because it's not just telling people not to sexually harass people, although that is part of it, but HR departments and employers need to be educated about how they respond to when a woman comes forward, because we see victim blaming is a huge, huge, huge problem. We see really inappropriate questions when women are coming forward, you know, questions. What were you wearing at the time how much were you drinking have you had relationships with other people in the office um really sort of inappropriate

stuff um but other kind of sexual harassment myths which perpetuate things like um that sexual harassment these are isolated incidences that these are accidental that these aren't intentional, when that's not what we see on the front line at all. You know, I was on the phone to a woman yesterday telling me that this person in her workplace has been touching her up at any opportunity he could for the last six months. And he's doing this behind closed doors. He's not stupid.

He knows how to get away with this. And that's the reality of the situation. But she is in this really difficult position where she knows that she has no, you know, quote unquote, hard evidence. She doesn't have it on CCTV. She doesn't have an ability to prove what has happened. So she feels like she can't come forward because there's a real risk that she won't be believed and because she won't be believed she doesn't want to go through a traumatic experience like um having her whole character assassinated um and having all the work and everything she's ever done called into question um over these allegations and that's chiming with a lot of those experiences i'm hearing here on the

messages that we're getting in just now and lots of them as well I should say let me come back to Stella and then I'll ask you the same question Deba we've got this message here which says I'm beginning to think we need to focus much more on strengthening ourselves and getting much better at standing up for ourselves as well as learning and practicing better responses and put downs and feeling we have a right to stand up for ourselves. Stella, what do you make of that? Taking into account what Deba was saying, it's not about victim blaming here. It's not about, you know, not saying that there isn't a place for training, especially for those who have to respond. But also very mindful of what Deba just said, that people are leaving, you know, because they can't do anything about this. What do you make of that as part of your training, perhaps, or how people could respond? Well, it's really, really important. We run sessions specifically

toward speaking up. And we really do talk to people about having the confidence to do that. We also in our training, one of the summary things really we want people to go away from anything thinking about is that they have two responsibilities the first responsibility is to reflect and constantly reflect on their own behavior and be thinking about whether it's appropriate or not and ask questions of others if they are wondering but also take away another responsibility and that is to make sure that if they do feel uncomfortable they think about how they can move that forward and it and that's the complete spectrum there if you could see me i've had my arms as wide as i could that can go from themselves

being able to talk to the person and deal with it so just between the two but there's a whole range of reasons why they may not want to do that um but what we do say to them is they must think about somebody else they can talk to that will help them move the situation forward and that could be a colleague it could be a speak up champion we train all sorts of roles in all of this but somebody that they can go to and say blind manager an HR person but they feel then that they've got some support in doing it as an hr manager when anybody came to me and want no one telling me about something like this the first thing i asked them was how they wanted to move it forward because you used to work in the met we should say as well

you've done lots of things but carry on yeah thank you um and one of the things i was always pleased about if they felt they could deal with it themselves and i would coach them to have that conversation and make sure afterwards I'd spoken to them and check everything was still going well but there are as I say a whole range of things they can do we want them to know that it will be taken seriously and again that comes back to what I said last time when we are working with clients it's making them see no it's not the training alone it's a package of support. And that must be ongoing. It must become absolutely part of how that organisation operates. Ziba, do you have a view on this in the sense of whether this is the solution i think what we need to do is put less

emphasis on the women and the victims and less of the burden on them and shift it onto employers put it put that on them and so this is why after the you know not that much has changed since the me too movement you know the laws are the same nothing has really changed apart from there was a consultation that the government undertook saying that they would introduce a new duty on employers to take preventative steps to stop harassment happening in the first place, like training, like policies. At the moment, all of this stuff is just optional. Just a sec. Can I say on that? We went to the government on that and the government's equality hub. They're in charge of the current consultation looking into this, exactly as you say. And they say we consulted to ensure that laws to protect people from sexual harassment at work are operating effectively.

And the response to this will be published as soon as is feasible. Just before you moved on, Deba, carry on. Yes. And what that proposed was putting obligations on employers to do more so that they have to introduce this training. And I think we, you know, you can even go further than that. What we really need to start thinking about is different options for women so that they have safe ways to report. So for example, making anonymous reporting more of the norm so that you would at least get a scale of the true scale of the problem because right now women don't want to take all that burden and pressure all the professional

and personal risk that comes with that if you had um ways to anonymously report these things you'd at least get a truer scale of the problem um but also things like exploring fines so if there are organizations which are um which have serious problems with harassment and discrimination, which there are, they should face big fines from organisations like the Equality and Human Rights Commission. So that's where we want to get to. I suppose it's just also about looking at where people are now

and how they can cope at the moment. So it seems that a mixture of courses and the law changing perhaps as you've described, Deba, but also people being able to talk to people and speak up themselves. And in some terrible cases, it might also be that they feel that they have to leave as well, which is what we're certainly seeing.

That's not how it should be, but I'm trying to put together the reality of people's lives, I suppose, at the moment and also what you've been hearing on your phone line, Deba. There's no magic solution here. There's no silver bullet.

It's got to be a combination of things. But I think right now there is just too much put on the woman, you know, to put on the woman to solve the situation. To try and solve the situation they find themselves in. Deba, thank you for talking to us. In terms of the phone line and the charity, it's called Rights of Women. It's a sexual harassment work advice phone line. Deba, thank you for talking to us. In terms of the phone line and the charity, it's called Rights of Women. It's a sexual harassment work advice phone line. Deba Syed there. Stella Chanda, thank you to you, Director of Development of Focal Point Training. Tom said

on an email here, as a trade union rep in a large company for many years, a cynic in me concludes that much of this training is brought in so that employers might mitigate against being held partially liable under harassment legislation. Another one here saying it's not just women experiencing this. It may also be very difficult for men to complain. A few messages along those lines. Another message here. One aspect not brought up is alcohol in the workplace.

And Heather's calling for something which, again, might be an ideal situation, but again, very difficult to envision it happening, certainly for smaller businesses as well. But human resources is not enough. Their job is to protect the organisation and its reputation. It doesn't help junior women who are harassed. We need independent systems. And women end up leaving with a stigma following them. I've got much more to say on this. Keep those messages coming in. And if I can, I shall return to them. But thank you so much for so many of them and for feeling like you could share. Now, Dan Spargo-Mabs was a popular,

intelligent and charismatic 16-year-old boy. He was voted prom king at his school. He'd deliver papers, run errands for the elderly in his community. But in January 2014, Dan and his parents, Tim and Fiona, made headlines when, after telling his family he was going to a party with friends, he never came home. Dan had gone to an illegal rave and taken a lethal dose of the drug MDMA. Seven years on, I'm joined by Fiona Spargo-Mubbs, Dan's mum. Fiona is now a drug education advisor with the charity she set up, the Daniel Spargo-Mubbs Foundation, and has just published the book, I Wish I'd Known, Young People, Drugs and Decisions,

a Guide for Parents and Carers. Good morning, Fiona. Morning. Thank you for joining us today. And I know that this is an incredibly important thing for you to try and talk broadly to parents about. But before we do that, just tell us about Dan. I paraphrased a little there. Dan was a very big character so

it's very difficult to to some I mean I think it's probably always very difficult to define your child in a few words anyway but Dan was um he was bright he was big-hearted he he loved being friends with everyone and he was really good at making friends with everyone anyone and everyone and and he was he he just wasn't somebody he would have been on anybody's radar to come to harm from drugs and when that happened it made us realize if something like this can happen to somebody like Dan then it's just so easy for for anyone to get caught up in something that has the potential to go badly wrong. And we were left with no Dan and just this passionate commitment to make sure we did everything as his parents to stop any harm of any sort

happening to anybody else's child. Because the good news in my sad story is it's all really, really avoidable. And I definitely want to come to that. But just in terms of what did happen to Dan, was it his first time taking MDMA? No, we thought it was. I mean, we got no idea as parents, but it turned out that it was his third time. And for Dan, it was a very, very short journey.

Six months before he died, he'd been to Reading, as so many do, pick up your GCSE results, go to Reading. And that was clearly the first time that he'd seen anyone taking ecstasy because he came, Dan was a total chatterbox, and he came back and said, Mum, you should have seen, they're so funny, they were saying this. So over that next six months, going into sixth form at school,

a friend, he went to a gig with some friends, a friend gave him a bit of her MDMA to try. There was another gig a month or so later, she got him and another friend some of their own from her supplier and that Dan hadn't enjoyed that his reaction to that had really shaken him and actually she'd had a bad reaction to that as well he'd spent the next few days in bed with the temperature I just thought he picked up a bug at this gig I got absolutely no idea and then when it came to this night of the rave, he was, he had clearly,

we found all of this out six months after he died when he got his phone back from the police after the sentencing of the supplier and pieced together this very, very, very incomplete narrative that we still have. But he was coming out with a whole load of excuses not to go to this rave. Apparently all the way there, which took ages, he was watching these other boys sipping their mgma they dissolved it in water and holding

his back and just being quite kind of wary and hesitant and and then just on that very last train apparently one of the other boys spotted he hadn't had his and said are you not having yours then and at that moment he had it and at that, he stood very little chance because it was just incredibly strong. It was 12 times stronger than it killed people in the past. And that was the beginning in the situation of, I suppose, his end. But also you then learning that your son was doing something completely different to what you thought. And I think that's what, you know, even if you can't relate to your story, you can relate to the fear that you don't know what your children are doing and how to help them. And you say with confidence that it's avoidable. It is, but that is so much

easier said than done because the world of teenagers is very different from the world that their parents, however young their parents are, it's very, very different now. And you don't know what you don't know as a parent. And navigating risk in your teenage years is just the hardest time of your life. And when some of the risks you're presented with are illegal substances that are inherently risky because of the nature of the way that they're made and produced and supplied and so on.

It's a difficult landscape for teenagers and and it's within that social dynamic there are all sorts of critical changes going on in their brain that means thinking things through managing risk managing your emotions and impulses is very hard and the role of your your friends takes on a whole different dimension. And as we will all remember, I'm sure as adults, that time when your friends can play an enormous role in the decisions you make. And it's easy to say it's avoidable, but there are nevertheless so many things. Could you give us some of those for people listening who are at this stage and want to learn? Yeah, well, first of all, I think just to be aware, know that it's very, very unlikely that your child will not at some point

or other be in a position where they have to make a decision. So don't think that it's just out there for kids like that and families like that and communities like that, because it's everywhere. And young people are being exposed just just seeing things around on on various sorts of media including social media so it's something that they are aware of and also be aware as a parent that in that moment of decision their decision might be yes and it might be yes under all sorts of pressures and and all sorts of dynamics going on that you would never normally think that they would be subject to.

So so knowing that that's going to be a decision that they potentially have to make, or quite likely will be confronted with at some point, and then what? What should you do? Make sure that you've got information yourself, so be as aware as you can. Use our website, the DSM Foundation, because we've got lots of resources there, and there are other places, Frank and Drugs and Me, there are lots of useful resources that you can go to as a parent. So get information, but really importantly, keep those conversations going at home. Anything that you can do to support and strengthen your connectedness with your child and that communication with your child.

And that can get more difficult as they get into their teens. So making and taking opportunities for conversations, making that conversation a comfortable conversation that you can both come back to as and when either of you need to. And making sure that you don't do anything to shut that down, which is very easy to do as a parent.

It's easy to panic. It's easy to lecture. It's easy to kind of jump in. But I suppose in some ways it gets compared to sex conversations, sex education, things that you could just come away in some ways it gets compared to sex sex conversation sex education things that you could just come away from and do you need to have the conversation that it's done or do you need to keep having the conversation and others will prefer instilling fear you know you are not allowed to do that yes you can't do that no and and um it's definitely

not just one conversation and it needs to be a different conversation as they get older um and and what you what you include in that will be and the way that you go about that obviously And it's definitely not just one conversation. And it needs to be a different conversation as they get older. And what you include in that will be, and the way that you go about that obviously will be very different. But it needs to be an ongoing conversation because it's an ongoing risk for your children. It's an ongoing part of their social environment. But it's also instilling fear. It's kind of counterintuitive

because you'd think if we can just tell them something really shocking and of course then they won't want to do it because they'll know that it's... But in that moment of decision for a teenager, you might know that it's incredibly risky, but you've got this social risk of falling out with your friends. Fear tactics, there has been a lot of research done into what works and doesn't work in drugs education and shock tactics is something that that doesn't work and it can it can sometimes be counterproductive you can they will know people that are taking stuff and not dropping dead so it's unrealistic you talked about how things have changed how you know have drugs become much more normalized today for instance even coming away from you know in the last years that you've been experiencing this since your work started? Absolutely. And there are various reasons for that. When we started, well, we started the charity, Dan died in 2014.

We started the charity ridiculously quickly. I think we were registered with Companies House within eight days. It took longer to get registered as a charity. And obviously we had a lot of learning our trade to do um um but in 2014 the government commissions a survey of 11 to 15 year olds in england every two years so that survey from 2014 24 of 15 year olds had tried illegal drugs there might just have been once but it might be more than once by 2018 which is the most recently published survey that had gone up to 38 so the the levels of exposure and levels of use have gone up quite significantly.

But social media has played a really significant role in that and that normalising. There's a level of exposure and risk that's very specific to seeing things on social media. It's another conversation for another day maybe, but another big piece of work that I've been involved in as well. And we just did a survey as a charity just recently there was a follow-up from a survey the year before and that found that one in three 15 year olds had seen drugs being offered for sale on social media and one in three 15 year olds who had bought drugs have bought them through social media so it makes it it's not only is it in that social very very familiar, friendly social space of your phone. It also makes drugs very accessible and available

and plays a huge role in normalising and reducing that sense of risk. Well, the book is called I Wish I'd Known, Young People, Drugs and Decisions, a Guide for Parents and Carers. Fiona, thank you for coming to talk to us today. As you say, lots of resources out there for people to look up. And the foundation is called the Daniel Spargo Mavs Foundation. It's lovely to be able to talk about him as well today. Thank you. And to you too.

Well, tomorrow's programme, just to say, we are dedicating the whole of it to women's health in advance of the closing date for the government's Women's Health Strategy Call for Evidence. The deadline for that is this Sunday. If you haven't yet told the government how to improve healthcare for women, do it now. We'll also be looking at the long history of women being ignored by medicine and hearing about the latest research into autoimmune diseases. Put this one in your mind. 8% of people have autoimmune diseases, but 78% of them are women. So we'll be looking at all of that tomorrow. So get your thinking caps on of what you want to say, but also what you might put forward in evidence. And I look forward to hearing from you then. Thank you so much for your company today. And we'll be back with you tomorrow at 10.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Welcome to Descendants, the series which looks into our lives and our past and asks something pretty simple. How close are each of our lives to the legacy of Britain's role in slavery? And who does that mean our lives are linked to? Narrated by me, Yersa Daly Ward, we hear from those who have found themselves connected to each other through this history. Whoever you are, wherever you are in Britain, the chances are this touches your life somewhere, somehow. Descendants from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered there was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies I started like warning everybody every doula that I know it was fake no pregnancy and the deeper I dig the more questions I unearth how long has she been doing this what does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.