Woman's Hour - Abortion, Spending Review, Lara Pulver, Yael van der Wouden

Episode Date: June 12, 2025

Next week not one but two amendments are being brought before MPs, both of which could mean, if passed, that women will no longer be prosecuted for terminating a pregnancy in England and Wales. It comes amid concern more women are being investigated by police on suspicion of illegally ending a pregnancy. Anita Rani is joined by the BBC's Health Correspondent Nick Triggle and Labour MP Tonia Antoniazzi, one of those who is tabling an amendmentThe Chancellor Rachel Reeves this week announced an extra £29bn per year for the NHS, along with funding boosts for defence and housing as she set out the government's spending plans for the coming years. What impact could the spending review announcements have on women? Eir Nolsoe, Economic Correspondent at the Telegraph, and Erin Mansell from the Women's Budget Group join Anita to discuss.The Safekeep by Yael van der Wouden is set in the Netherlands in 1960 and tells the story of Isabel and Eva, two women who are both struggling to find their place in a society that isn’t yet modern but does not want to reflect on the horrors of the Second World War. Yael joins Anita to discuss her critically acclaimed debut novel which has been shortlisted for both the Booker and the Women’s Prize for Fiction.Olivier Award-winning actor Lara Pulver joins Anita in the studio to talk about playing matriarch Golde in the critically acclaimed production of The Fiddler on the Roof at The Barbican Theatre.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Corinna Jones

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Welcome to the programme. The new production of Fiddler on the Roof has received 13 nominations, including Best Actress in a Musical for Lara Pulver who plays the mama Golda. Lara will be here and she's brought some of the cast including the amazing Fiddler with her and we're going to be treated to a live performance. Rachel Reeves announced her spending review

will be understanding what impact it will have on the lives of women. I'm speaking to Yael Fandavaudan, whose debut novel The Safekeep was not only shortlisted for the Booker Prize last year, she's also nominated for the Women's Prize, not surprising as it's excellent. Without giving away any spoilers, the main protagonist has to take in an unwanted house guest who she really doesn't like. So this morning I'd like you to tell me about your unwanted houseguests and how that relationship brought something positive to your life or ultimately revealed something about yourself. It could be

a relative, a friend, a pet. Did you despise dogs until you were forced to live with one? The niece, nephew, cousin, grandparent or a random stranger who moved into your home and ended up teaching you more about yourself than you ever knew, even though to start with you couldn't abide them. Get in touch with me this morning about your unwanted house guests. The text number is 84844. You can email the programme by going to our website and of course the WhatsApp number is 03 700 100 444. Text number once again 84844. But first, the topic of this week's political agenda has of course been the spending review,

more on that later, but next week the focus of the debate on those green benches will be abortion. This is because not one but two amendments are being brought before MPs, both of which could mean, if passed, that women will no longer be prosecuted for terminating a pregnancy in England and Wales. It comes amid concerns that women are being investigated by police on suspicion of illegally ending a pregnancy, including the case of Nicola Packer, who was acquitted last month of charges of unlawfully administering abortion pills at home. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists said the trial demonstrated just how outdated and harmful current abortion law was and called for reform. But we should remember that abortion is a controversial topic with strong views on all sides

and many would see proposed changes as diluting protections for the unborn child. MPs will have a free vote on the issue. I'm joined now by the BBC's health correspondent Nick Triggle who can bring us more. So Nick, morning, what's the current law on abortion? Let's get that first. Well, good morning. Yes, I mean, of course, abortion is allowed in England and Wales but only under certain circumstances as set out by the 1967 Abortion Act. Now that requires a woman seeking abortion to get two

doctors to agree to it and even those looking to have an abortion under 24 weeks pregnant may still have to testify that their mental or physical health is at risk. And then those who are over 24 weeks pregnant abortions are only allowed in exceptional circumstances if their own life is at significant risk or if the baby will have severe disabilities when it's born. So those are the rules that give women access to abortion services in this country. And there are two amendments due to be debated next week. Let's start with the Labour MP Stella Creasy. What's she looking to change?

Well, she's looking to decriminalise women who can face prosecution. Now, women who have an abortion but don't meet the circumstances and rules set out by the Abortion Act 1967, they tend to be prosecuted under a piece of Victorian legislation, the Offences Against the Person Act of 1861. So, her amendment is aimed at effectively neutralizing that act and prosecutions under that act and another more recent act as well. But her amendment has attracted concerns from abortion providers and others in the field. They're concerned Stella Crease's amendment will effectively, as well as neutralising those, that Victorian Act, it would rip up the current abortion act they fear. And that could reopen a whole debate about abortion. They think the anti-abortion lobby could then move in and that could put women's rights to an abortion at risk. Stella Creasy obviously

she doesn't share those concerns but I think we will hear about this during the debate in Parliament next week. And fellow Labour MP Tonya Antoniazza, who I will be speaking to in just a moment, has brought about a second amendment. How does hers differ? Fellow Labour MP Tonya Antoniazze, who I will be speaking to in just a moment, has brought about a second amendment. How does hers differ? Yes, again, hers is aimed at decriminalising abortion, focusing on that Victorian legislation. The way it's worded, the abortion providers and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists have got behind it. They're urging MPs to vote and debate that one because they think the way it's worded doesn't have any impact on the Abortion Act 1967,

which gives women currently a right to access abortion. Abortion providers and others aren't necessarily fans of that abortion act. They think the rules are too onerous, but at the moment they don't want to sort of open up that debate. Of course, there's other views on the other side. The Society for the Protection of Unborn Children has said it's against both amendments and a warning that if either of them are passed, it could allow abortion up to birth, that that that could become possible and is not a situation they would want tolerated. I mentioned briefly that this has come about amid concerns that women are being investigated by police on suspicion of illegally ending a pregnancy. Nicola Packer was recently cleared by a jury of unlawfully administering herself with

abortion pills at home during the coronavirus lockdown of 2020. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Yes, well we think she's one of six women who've appeared in court in England over the last three years charged with ending or attempting to end their own pregnancy. She was cleared by a jury in May. The 45 year old was acquitted of unlawfully administering a poison. She took an abortion medication at home in lockdown during November 2020. She was 26 weeks pregnant but had been prescribed the abortion pills over the phone because of Covid restrictions that were in place at the time. But they're only allowed to be taken at home if a woman is under 10 weeks pregnant.

Now because she was 26 weeks she faced prosecution. She claimed she didn't know she was so far along with her pregnancy and as I say the jury in the trial acquitted her. And this is a free vote meaning MPs will not be told how to vote by their party. What are the early indications of whether these will be made law? Well yes, it's a free vote. The Tories, Lib Dems and Labour have all promised that their MPs will be able to vote how they want with their own conscience. We often see this when abortion and any ethical medical issue is debated in Parliament. It often does go to a free vote. We understand it's likely only one of the

amendments will be chosen both have over a hundred backers from other MPs, Tanya Antonatsis amendment has slightly more so that would suggest at the moment that looks like it's the favorite to to get, but we'll have to wait and see until next week. Thank you very much for joining me to speak to me this morning. That's BBC's health correspondent, Nick Trigle. And as I mentioned earlier, I'm also joined by Tonya Antinatsi, the Labour MP who's tabled one of these amendments. Welcome to Women's Hour, Tonya, we heard from Nick there. What are you hoping this amendment will lead to? Hi, I'm hoping that this amendment will lead to no more Nicola Packers because you know we have to

take women out of the criminal system and I do not believe that any woman intentionally would put themselves in that situation. Having gone to the court and sat through some of the proceedings and met Nicola, I've been really taken aback by how unfit for purpose the law is and how women are being treated and we have seen an increase in women that have been investigated by the police. You know we believe there are over a hundred, six have been prosecuted and one has been jailed. You know there are multiple women still in the criminal system and it is just not in the public interest to do this. So that is what, it's quite a simple amendment

to the Crime and Policing Bill, which I hope will be selected by the Speaker on Tuesday. We are in a situation which, you know, it's untenable at the moment that women are being treated like this in 2025 and having met Nicola, I just feel that this is the right thing to do. What led you to decide to bring this? Was it meeting Nicola? It was meeting Nicola but it was previous to that because Diana Johnson put down a very well the same amendment to the Crime and Policing Bill last year and I had signed her amendment but obviously the Crime and Policing Bill fell because we had a general election So this is a sector-wide supported amendment, it's

also supported by across the house and I think it's really important that we right this wrong now. This is not touching on any changes to abortion law, this is not changing the rules and to be honest with you Anita, I've been a bit quite you know, I was brought up a Catholic, I know how precious life is, I had to sit through the VHS of videos of abortion and euthanasia growing up and being in school and I think that has really shaped my view as an adult in how women's, you know, our bodily choices are ours to make. But this isn't touching on any abortion law, it changes nothing. It only decriminalises women.

Well there will be those who want to see the law remain as it is and also those who think abortion should be illegal at any time during pregnancy. So what do you say to those who are against this change on principle? You know last year when I was knocking doors one of my lovely constituents said to me, but you want abortion up to 40 weeks and I said absolutely not. I said, I turned it round and basically said, look, would you want the woman who is in that desperate situation to go through the criminal system and be taken to the police and criminalised? And the answer was no. People do not want this to happen. 71% of the public know that it's wrong that the woman is in a situation that, you know, they can be criminalised at the moment and I do not believe that those that have share a different view to me want women to go to jail. It's no deterrent. If a woman is

that desperate they need help and support, they need the medical system, to be there, the healthcare, to be there for them, to support them in their time of need not to be there for them, to support them in their time of need, not to be put in jail. Could you explain to some of the voting public how two female MPs have brought about the same issue but are differing? I wonder if there was a conversation between yourself and Stella Creasy or how do you feel about her amendment and the controversies around it? I think that the issue, look, we both come from the same place.

However, my amendment is a very neat amendment that will change the law immediately for women. And also the issue with NC20, which is Stella's amendment, is that there are lots of unintended consequences that could happen and it will impact on abortion law and the service providers do not need to be in a place where they don't know what's going to happen they need that clarity so while many of the things in Stella's amendment I support it's not appropriate for in my opinion and the sector's opinion it's not appropriate for now in my opinion and the sector's opinion, it's

not appropriate for now in the Crime and Policing Bill. Would you like to see her withdraw her amendment? I don't think there's any need for that. The Speaker will support, will put forward one of our amendments on Tuesday. You know, it would be great if she did but it's not the end of the world if she doesn't because she comes from the same place as me, we have the same intentions, it's just that mine is neater and it's sector supported which I think means that it could actually happen. And what are you hearing from fellow MPs, are they likely to support you?

I am getting a lot of support but, you know, and I think this is the time for there to be no more Nicola Packers. This is a time for women to be decriminalised and not used as a political football. So yes, the support is there. I hope it does pass. Thank you very much for making the time to speak to me this morning, Tonya and Tonya Atzer. Well, of course, we'll keep across developments on this as things develop next week. So thank you to both Tonya and earlier speaking to Nick Triggle. Now The Safekeep by Jarl van der Vouden tells the story of Isabel and Ava. It's set in the Netherlands in 1960. These two women are both struggling to find their place in a society

that isn't yet modern but does not want to reflect on the horrors of the Second World War. Add into the mix a remote country house and simmering sexual tension and the result is a novel that's been hugely critically acclaimed and has been shortlisted for both the Booker and the Women's Prize for Fiction. Yale is in London for the Women's Prize ceremony and I'm delighted to say you've made time to come and see us at Women's Hour. Welcome. Of course, very honored to be here. Congratulations on being shortlisted for two major awards. What's

it like to get those nominations for your debut novel? It's, every time I hear that list I'm like who's she? I don't know her. It feels quite unreal. Most of the time, it doesn't quite land. I think my friend at one point was like, you know, look at you, glamorous life. And as she was texting this, I was in a train that was entirely packed and everybody had to stand and it was summer and you know, I was standing next to somebody with their arms up and my face was entirely in their armpits. And I was like, I think as long as I'm breathing in somebody else's armpit hair smell, I am not yet that glamorous. But to answer your question, it's absolutely a dream and unreal. I've been an avid reader of both the Women's Prize long list and short list and the bookers for many years.

Well as it's Women's Hour, what's the significance of being shortlisted for the Women's Prize? Oh it's a huge honor, of course like I said I've been following the list for so many years and I remember sometimes looking at the list and just like you know that flutter of a thought like oh what if that will be me one day? I didn't expect it to happen quite so suddenly and quite so quickly. I'm not surprised having read it. It's excellent. The safe keep, let's talk about it, looks at a generation of people who were children during the war and despite being affected by it they don't seem to want to reflect on what happened during those days and the aftermath. So why did you want to explore their experience and at that point of Dutch history? Give us some

context of the book. I mean it's a topic, it's two things. It's a topic that I'm interested in through my academic background and through also my own personal background, but also it is the environment that I grew up in. I grew up in the late 80s and 90s in the east of the country, so it's definitely not the 60s. But there's definitely that air of people know privately and do not discuss publicly. And that I've had so many conversations on sort of just randomly with strangers on the street. There was one time this man who I was back, I was 13 years old, I was biking through the city and a man stopped me. This is in the Netherlands. This is in the Netherlands, yes, in Zwolle.

And he flagged me down. I did not yet know that I should not just like stop randomly for men flagging me down. And he called me over and he asked me if I was Jewish. And I also did not yet know that I could just say, no, thank you, and bike away. So I very confusedly said yes. And then he proceeded to explain that when he was eight years old, he lived in the house opposite that bridge. And he explained about this winter day that he couldn't fall asleep. And he looked out

the window and saw how all the Jewish people from his neighborhood, from that part of Zola were being rounded up on the other end of the bridge, describing the snow and the trucks and the soldiers putting them into the trucks. And I was there to basically just listen to him. I think he really wanted to tell this to a Jewish person. Unfortunately, a 13-year-old girl is maybe not the best receiver of this foundational memory, but it's always stayed with me those kinds of narratives that people have glimpsed at and then would never be discussed at dinner tables or on television or novels that I'd read, but they seem to exist sort of under the surface and I thought it would be fascinating to bring them to the surface.

You thank your grandparents in the acknowledgements. Yes. I want to know why, but also is there something about it takes for that sort of the next generation along to be able to have the resources to be able to unpack that? Yeah, my grandparents represent, I mean they are not related to the characters in this novel. They do represent the different narrative threads that exist within it. I have my Jewish grandmother and my not Jewish Dutch grandfather. And of course, there has been the reason why I mentioned those two is because they passed

away within several days of one another and between the one the one Passing in the other passing. That's when the premise of this novel Bloomed I think in there in the fallout of grief. We we often turn to Fantasies in order to distract us and this happened to me one of one of those fantasies which is oh a woman in a house and a stranger coming in and creating a mess of her life basically which we've turned into our callout

this morning i've said to people tell me about a time when an unwanted house guest stayed with you lots of people i'm gonna um i'm just gonna read one out we inherited our mom's dog after she died i didn't love him much at first then we started started bonding. I love him now. He's our last memory of our beautiful mum. So I'll read some more of those out. But back to the book and the characters. Isabel, the central character of your book. Absolutely fascinated by this woman and her difficult relationship with people. What was it like to explore a character that repressed? Tell us about it. All the characters are incredible in this, but Isabel particularly.

Oh, it was so fun. I've always adored a repressed character. Why? repressed character. Why? I'm not repressed at all myself. No, it's, I think what it is, is the question of what lies beneath the surface and how can, I think when you have a repressed character, I think oftentimes I find when, it frustrates me when I, when we never find out what is, what is being repressed. I think repression often is played out for laughs, but I always wonder what's beneath, what is the thing that has created this cocoon? That's the one thing, it's very fun to crack it open.

I always describe Isabelle as cracking her open like the spine of a novel, of a book. Who is she? Tell us about Isabelle. So we've mentioned the word repressed several times. She's quite neurotic. So she's inherited her mother's home and her entire life is basically keeping this house in order, keeping it clean, going to the grocers, growing to the furniture maker. She has a routine and that is everything that keeps her going. She doesn't have anything beyond that, no friends, no hobbies, no lovers, God forbid.

And this is how she basically makes it through the day, through her life. And then once upon a day, Eva turns up, her brother's new girlfriend, who she despises, and Eva is the antithesis of Isabel and has no respect for routine or cleanliness. And she hates her, and Eva unravels the very carefully constructed life that Isabel has created for herself. Yes, and her brother says she has to stay here while I disappear for a bit. She doesn't want to, but she's forced to live with Ava. In the acknowledgments, you also thank people for not talking to you about chapter 10.

Specifically, my family, yes. Why? That's the my family, yes. Why? That's the sexy chapter, yeah. No, but there's a lot of sex in the book. It's just one chapter, really. Okay, no spoiler but spoiler. Isabel, very repressed character. Eva turns up and you know, sometimes when something, you hate something so much,

it's basically revealing something about yourself. Yes. Can we talk about how you approached writing such involved sex scenes? It's an interesting question because I've had the pleasure of talking about this several times. And each time it takes me by surprise, this question of the chapter on its own, because I see it very much as an integral part of the novel. Yeah, so there was definitely a buildup. There's so much sexual tension in the book.

Exactly. And writing the sex scenes wasn't much different than writing any other scenes because you're already, from the first page, right, Isabelle's relationship to her own body is established as quite a contentious one. Whenever she has a thought, she cuts it off. Whenever she feels an emotion, she starts pinching the back of her hand, and she's very locked within her body. And then Eva comes in and we have, of course, this antagonism between the characters, but the antagonism becomes something physical in the sense that Isabelle wants to make everything

quite in a physical way. I think if she could strangle Eva, she would. If she could put her hand over her mouth, she would. And the first time that they touch is also in a moment of antagonism. Isabel grabs Eva by the arm, and quite harshly and hard. At one point she thinks Eva is stealing something from the study, and then she grabs her again. It becomes quite physical, and what I've tried to do with every single one of those scenes is imbue it with a sense of eros, a sense of tension through the erotic. So the erotic is there in the language, and I mean it in a very sort of Esther Perelian way where it's not necessarily erotic in this directly sexy way but rather this idea of a heightened sensibility, a heightened tactile way of writing. And so by the time that you get to the

sex scenes it's supposed to feel like a natural extension of what has come before. It does. There are a few gay characters in the book. Isabel's brother, Hendrik. Why is he free to explore sexuality in a way that she isn't? I think that, and I've found this also for myself as a human in the world. I think that there's something occasionally that can be quite invisible about women's desire. And this is obviously changing, right? Thank you, Gillian Anderson, for your novel, for your book, for your collection. This conversation around women's desire is... She's been in that very chair talking about the same thing.

Oh my gosh, stop it. But for me growing up, when I was reading about desire, and I did have... I had a friend and we would both, would read through books and look for the books that had spice in it, as the kids say these days, and then exchange them and would read them and be like, oh, that this book has some sex in it. And it would always be through a male lens and it would always be about man's desire. And so when I came to understand desire for myself in my own body, I would have to imagine myself through a masculine lens in order to do that. And it was very confusing and very sort of, it also created a complicated relationship

for myself with my own desire and who I thought I was or wasn't. for myself with my own desire and who I thought I was or wasn't. And when I started looking for queer novels, the desire wasn't always center stage. It was either misery or the grand coming out story. And I desperately wanted the yearning and the love to get that central space. And that's what I was trying to do really with this novel. But to answer your question, Hendrik, right? I wanted

to create the character of Hendrik, you know, to create that contrast because he's gay and he's quite open about this with Isabelle and Free, and yet he cannot imagine his sister having a desire like that. He sees her as a reproduction of her mother, as an extension of that, of heteronormativity and closed mindedness. And so she's, even to the person who's closest to her, she's still invisible. How would reading more lesbian love stories have affected you as a young person? If I had the chance?

Yeah. Well, Lord knows. I might have arrived where I am today much earlier. Yeah, it's hard to say. But also I'm very grateful for the journey that I had because I think it's made my approach to writing, desire, a more heightened one, let's put it like that. Yes.

Can I talk a bit about the process of writing it? Of course, please, my favourite part. From the idea to actually it being out, Like, did you have a place to write? Did you wake up every morning? Like, how did this book, how was it born? I was writing another novel. So this one was my side piece. Side piece.

My side piece. I didn't tell anyone. The sexy side piece. The sexy side piece. I was quite devoted and loyal to the first novel. And so this one had to be secret to myself and to everyone else but the way I did it for the first I think five months is I plotted like a mad woman. It's a great story. We haven't given it all away. No. There's no not at all. Yeah. So it

started out with a lot of flashcards and notes and an entire notebook dedicated to writing out little scenes. The first thing that I wrote on the page was the scene where Ava and Isabel are in the kitchen and Isabel just had her date with the Ohan. And then there's the conversation about kissing. So that's where the novel started with that conversation. kissing. So that's where the novel started with that conversation. And when I did start writing, I had already spent five months in that world, in the scaffolding of it, in the glimpses of it here. It existed like a trailer to a movie in my head, and then I had to actually

create the movie. And because I had created such a scaffold, such a framework by the time I started writing it basically just rolled out within I think it took me six months and I was working I was teaching in Maastricht and I lived in Utrecht that's a two-hour train ride so I wrote a majority of this book on the train to and back from work. That's dedication and in six months so the story just needed to come out well it's extraordinary. Thank you so much. And I've already decided I'm reading everything that you will publish here on in. Oh gosh. So no pressure. No pressure at all. Good luck. Thank you so much. And thank you for taking the time to speak to us. Thank you for having me. Thank you to Yale, Van der Waalden and her book The Safe Keep is out now. And join

us tomorrow when we'll be discussing the winners of this year's Women's Prize. Best of luck for tomorrow. Thank you. I'm gonna read out some of your lovely messages that are coming in. Someone's just said, "'These are the best sex scenes I've ever read "'and I'm in awe of your ability to do this.'"

There you go, Yael, before you disappear. That's come from one of our listeners. Rebecca has been in touch to say, "'When two of my husband's friends were going through difficult divorce proceedings and found themselves with nowhere to live, we opened our house to them. It made me feel good that I was helping someone in need, but it also made me realize how much I love my space and my routines. I've now told my friends to stop divorcing their husbands and sending them to us and then we'll not and we will not be accepting any more houseguests for the foreseeable. The last one especially was a man who did nothing

to help unless specifically asked and when asked to clean the shower decided he could actually find somewhere else to live. Cleaning the shower? Just have a squeegee by the glass surely? Just put the squeegee there and you don't have to say anything it's just wipe the glass clean. That's like isn't that a fact? Doesn't everyone just do that? Maybe that's a discussion for another day. Keep them coming in. Your unwanted house guest stories please. 84844 is the text number. Now the Chancellor Rachel Reeves delivered the spending review in the Commons yesterday at setting the budgets for government departments over the

next three years with increases for health, defence, education and science. Among the headline announcements was a 3% annual real-term increase in NHS spending, an extra £29 billion a year, along with £39 billion investment for social and affordable housing over the next decade. Some departments, including the Home Office and the Foreign Office, are facing budget cuts. To discuss this, I'm joined by Aya Nolsa, economics correspondent at The Telegraph and Erin Mansell from the Women's Budget Group. Thank you both of you, welcome to Woman's Hour. Erin I'm going to come to you first, overall impression please of the review. Yeah so I think

it's important to note that this really was a change in direction from what we've seen in previous years. So there's a lot made of this kind of 113 billion capital spending and some of that that will you know have a big impact and that we're looking at from the Women's Budget Group for women in particular around public transport and housing and as you said a lot of money going into social housing more than for a long time which is desperately needed. And we know that single parent households, of which women make up the majority heading

those households, are the majority that are kind of statutory homeless, so need that housing. And so they will particularly benefit. But it will be important how that money is kind of planned and delivered, because we need to make sure it is social housing and also on public transport you know it can have it we need it you know we all know the state of our kind of roads and rails and so on but women's travel patterns tend to be different to men's because of their caring responsibility so they tend to do what's called trip chaining which is kind of several journeys and so are more reliant on bus services and tend to less do the kind of

traditional male commuter route. So you know we really look and urge for those kind of regional mayors and authorities and local government to make sure that they're doing kind of gender sensitive planning with that extra funding for transport. As you said a big a big kind of one of the winners was the NHS and again women will benefit from that in particular, they make up three quarters of the workforce for the NHS and often also for themselves and the people they're caring for. So we really welcome that investment. What we would say is that you know we agree that investment in physical infrastructure in kind of roads and railways and so on is necessary but we also need to see greater investment in physical infrastructure in kind of roads and railways and so on is necessary, but we also need to see greater investment in social infrastructure and that's where

it really has an impact on women's lives when you're looking at things like social care, childcare and so on. So we would have liked to see more of that. Well we'll break some of those down in a minute. Aya, I'm going to bring you in. You just mentioned that Erin, that one of the big winners is spending in the NHS. Well it's going to rise by 3% a year after inflation. So what difference will that make on the ground to waiting lists? Let's start there. That is a very good question. So 3% sounds like a good figure, especially considering how tight things are. We heard this morning that the British economy shrunk last month. It's not a very

sort of pretty picture out there for the economy. So given that, 3% is generous. However, that is lower than sort of the average increase in the past. And there's big questions over, given how big the challenges the NHS faces are, how much that really can deliver. And as Erin mentioned, that's something that women care about a lot. There's polling from UGA that shows that when you ask people what is the most important issue facing the country, women are far more likely than men to say healthcare and the NHS. So it's something that

really matters to women. I'm not convinced there'll be enough to sort of get waiting lists down and make all those meaningful changes. But we know from past events that these spending plans aren't necessarily set in stone. they may well be topped up again. But it's not a rosy picture for the economy certainly, so it's a difficult time. Erin, on that, one of Labour's pledges was to ensure that more than 90% of patients in England start treatment within 18 weeks of referral. Currently it's less than 60%, so hitting that target is going to be a big ask. But as you just mentioned, for women, health

is top priority when it comes to spending. So waiting lists, which is what they want to bring down, which would benefit a lot of women, for gynaecology appointments, they're more than doubled from 2020 to 2024 at the beginning of the year. The waiting list in England stood at over 580,000. So will the money from the spending review put this as a priority? I think what we'll have to wait and see is some of the plans that come out specifically from the departments that have had their settlements. So we know the broad brushes but we don't yet know what the detailed plans will be. We were kind of disappointed to see that the

women's health strategy was potentially under threat from kind of supposed deficiencies when we know, you know, as I said that this is a real priority for women. I also think it's a concern that, you know, we are seeing much much less money go to local government and local government has been responsible for commissioning public health and we've seen some of the specialist services for women's health be cut over you know over the recent period so you know some of the the government's assumptions are that local government will increase council tax which isn't from our perspective the most effective way of kind of raising revenue for public

spending but yeah we I hope that there will be a reprioritisation of women's health because that, as you said, is going to be very important. Let's move to children and children's social care because that was mentioned. Rachel Reeves announced £370 million for school-based nurseries and £555 million to stop children going into care where it can be prevented. Can you explain further? I mean there's obviously sort of positive announcements. I was looking at the reactions from the sort of childcare sector and while people were sort of pleased to see those uplift they're still saying you know especially if you look at the childcare sector this is a sector in crisis. There are a lot of

nurseries that are sort of on the brink of going bust and leaders were calling out for more urgent funding and some of the figures that were mentioned yesterday aren't new. So I think there's a feeling out there that things are maybe going in the right direction but is it going to happen fast enough? And the £555 million to stop children going into care where it can be prevented, what could that mean? I mean any additional funding to the child social care sector is welcome. We know there's

lots of challenges and that for a very vulnerable group but the National Children's Bureau pointed out that the amount that was announced actually fell short of the 2.6 billion that was recommended by the Independent Review of Social Care. So, you know, it's good that it was raised as an issue in the Chancellor's speech, but yeah, it doesn't look like it's going to be enough really for the challenges that sector faces. She also announced the biggest cash injection into social and affordable housing in 50 years, a new affordable homes programme with 39 billion investment over the next decade. Good for women in particular? Why?

I'd say so on the face of it at least. I think as Erin mentioned, single mothers for children are particularly sort of vulnerable in terms of statutory homelessness. I think the devil will really be in the detail though because we've seen over the years that when politicians talk about affordable homes it's not necessarily what ordinary people consider affordable. So it's you know how is this going to be sort of split between social housing that is genuinely affordable and sort of houses sort of that's sold or rented out slightly below market rate but still not really what a lot of people can afford. I would agree and I think one of the important things is, you know,

we're talking about with social housing some of the poorest and most vulnerable women and that includes survivors of domestic abuse, for example made homeless by domestic abuse. So you know it's another important group that we want to look for how that works in practice. It also impacts on the rest of the housing market, so in terms of kind of the rental sector and private housing. And we know from our own analysis that women are less able to afford housing anywhere in the country than you know less able than men to afford housing so it has the potential to be really yeah to have really positive effects you know as I said there's lots of other areas that women won't see the

benefits from and and you know we'll be looking for kind of we'd like to see much more investment in some of those areas. And just coming back to your point on the additional funding for childcare, so the Women's Budget Group is involved with the Early Education and Childcare Coalition and from what we understand the money that was announced there isn't new and there is a kind of real challenge for providers of childcare which is potentially going to leave parents very disappointed and frustrated because come September, where the full rollout of the government's very welcome expansion of free childcare happens, you know, if parents go and

try and access that for their children, it's not available, there's going to be some huge frustration there. And they were also affected by, you know know the increase in national insurance for employers which we've seen kind of have an impact from April this year and so yeah lots of challenges and potentially not enough solutions there. Is there anything within the spending review that you see is a likely benefit to women in the long run? I mean I think we've sort of mentioned the main areas hopefully the money for the NHS can deliver some real tangible outcomes for women and for everyone and social housing as well. I think another big area is social care, which is sort of 4 billion cash injection. However, the Health

Foundation was pretty quick to say, you know, it sounds like a big number, but it's not really enough to sort of ensure anything, but the sector's standing still. It's not going to be enough to fund pay for carers, most of whom we know are women, and it's not necessarily going to improve access or quality of care which again as Erin mentioned a lot of that sort of unpaid care really does fall on women so yeah it's you know remains to be seen remains to be seen and we'll be keeping a close eye on it thank you both for coming in to speak to me about that to I and also economics correspondent at the Telegraph and Erin Mansell from the women's budget group

thank you now I'm gonna read out a few more of your lovely messages coming in about unwanted house guests. I'm in my late 30s and although I don't want children of my own I've ended up living with my sister and my two nieces. They've been with us for a year and a half. I find it difficult on a daily basis as I have to give up my office so one niece could have a bedroom and no longer have a desk at which to work but I have to say that I've learnt so much from them. I have to face my own emotions during their tantrums including managing my own anger. I have learnt to cook industrial amounts of food and have found that I laugh a whole lot more.

That's all benefits isn't it? Isn't that wonderful? 84844 keep them coming in. Now actor Lara Pulver has been a familiar face on our TV screens for years. You might have seen her most recently in Guy Ritchie's Mobland, opposite Dame Helen Mirren and Piers Brosnan, it's brilliant. Or you might remember her as Irene Adler, who could forget, opposite Benedict Cumberbatch's Sherlock, or even the BBC TV series, The Split or Spooks. But she's also a stage star too. She won an Olivier Award for her role in Gypsy in 2016

alongside her co-star and on stage mother, Imelda Staunton, and she was nominated again this year for her latest role of Golda in Fiddler on the Roof. It was one of a whopping 13 nominations for the show that's now on at the Barbican Theatre, and I'm delighted to say that Lara is here in the Woman's Hour Studio, she's joined us live and you've brought some cast with you.

I know, I paid them a lot of money to be here. This is incredible, thank you all of you for coming. We basically said to Lara would you perform live and not only did you say yes, you've brought everybody with you, this is fantastic. The production has been such a hit. Five-star reviews when it had its first run at the Regents Park Open Air Theatre last year. It won Best Musical Revival at the Olivier Awards. Was it an easy decision to come back to the role of Golda for the summer when it transferred? Oh gosh, it was a wonderful phone call to get, to be honest. I mean, there's so many times as an actor that you finish a show or a job

and then in the middle of the night you wake up and go oh that's what I should have done with that line or that scene. So to then be given the opportunity to go back and revisit on a show where you know it already worked, you know what we did at Regent's Park was magical and wonderful and then to get to kind of come back, 50% new cast and their wonderful new energy. It's a real gift. For people who don't know the story, tell us about Golda and her family. Oh gosh, okay. So Golda and Tevye are a married couple,

early 1900s, five daughters, and living in this beautiful small community of Anatevka. It's a musical, many people might know the film or have seen it previously on stage. It's full of wonderful tunes, one of which you're gonna hear today. A cast that ranges from kind of 19 to, well, we had a 75 year old in Regents Park playing the rabbi

and it's witty, it's funny, it's beautiful and it's heartbreaking. I'm very, I remember growing up lots of South Asian families loving it because it's a story that we could relate to. It's a couple with five daughters who they have the burden of marrying off, even that word the burden is terrible isn't it, and the eldest three want to very much do their own thing and break with tradition. I've read that you're a bit hesitant to take on the role at first. I had this idea that it was an older woman that was quite matronly and I just thought I don't see me as that and I think I've

always been the youngest in the family as a person and I've always had a quite a youthful energy and have often been cast younger than my age. And so there was something about taking on Golder that didn't feel right. I don't know. And then I read Tevye and the Dairymen, which is the book the Fiddlers are based on. And I mean women in the early 1900s were sadly gone by like mid-40s. Obviously, they were having children much younger than we do nowadays. And so the second I kind of expelled the myth that she had to be in her late 50s and very matronly, I was like, oh, no, I'm a mother myself. I've got an eight-year-old

and a four-year-old. I know exactly who this woman is. no I'm a mother myself I've got an eight-year-old and four-year-old I know exactly who this woman is and and all of a sudden I just brought everything that I am to the role instead of a perceived idea of who this woman should be. How do you play her? Oh gosh I don't even know come see. No you're extraordinary in it you're very dignified very restrained it's you know it's just it's just it's it's so subtle butined. It's so subtle, but brilliant. It's conflicting. It's really conflicting. Being a woman is often conflicting, like today. And I think Golder, in particular,

is a huge advocate of her daughters. And she's the matriarch of this family. But it's tricky when those daughters end up being such extraordinary trailblazers that it then poses bigger questions of safety and fear. And in one hand you're celebrating who they are and who they are wanting to be, and the other hand is fearful for them and the paths they're choosing. And what will happen if they break with tradition? Yeah, and what people will say and how you're perceived

and in a way that I wouldn't care as much now in 2025, it's huge, especially when you're from a very small town community and leaving that community means you're probably never going to see those people again. I think we should hear something from the show. So what are you going to perform for us? There's a beautiful number in the show called Sabbath Prayer

that the whole company sing, kind of about a third of the way through act one. It features our extraordinary violinist who plays off Fiddler, who is an Olivier nominee, Raph. And he's with us today along with some of the company. I will let you take your place, yes. We've got Livy Van Wormelo on piano, Raphael Papo on the fiddle, violin, also singing with you. You've got parts of the cast for Fré, Lucky, Maya, Crystal, Tenenbaum, Sue Appleby, Simon Anthony and Chris Draper.

And they're all performing the Sabbath prayer from Fiddler on the Roof. Wow! Bravo! Single clap! Lara, come and join me. That was absolutely extraordinary. Thank you to everybody. Take a seat. Oh my goodness. How much energy does it take to perform that night after night after night? Oh, theatre's gruelling. It's brutal. It really is. I mean, it's a gift. We're not saving lives. But it's a tricky show. It's joyous, but it's also emotionally heartbreaking. Yeah. Which bits, particularly you? Having to say goodbye to your daughters night after night. Yeah. And also, we've been together now kind of a year some of us so I really know these people I really know especially the the three actresses that played the the eldest daughters and there's just such a beautiful connection and understanding

that's not really spoken art it's not it doesn't need to be explored or said it's just a given. There was so much I could relate to when I was watching it. It's the first time I've actually watched a production of it. And lucky me for this to have been it. Your dad was Jewish, your mum converted to Judaism. Did you ever feel the sort of Jewish tradition around you, any weight of expectation? I think that yes, I'm of Jewish heritage. I grew up watching my mum, my grandmother, I mean, my

father's mother light the Shabbos candles. We were always in the Brick Lane Bickel shop. But beyond the kind of social stuff, we've never been a practicing Jewish family. But it's wonderful just to have any form of faith, spirit beyond thyself. And it's been extraordinary talking to all of the cast who all have very different relationships and backgrounds really. And I think the key of this particular production is the casting. I think it's such an extraordinary company, like I say, from all different backgrounds and everything that they bring to the show, because that's the show, it's the community. You are all brilliant, I have to say, every single one of you. You are very

lucky because something else I've just binge watched you in also has an extraordinary cast, Mobland. How much fun did you have making that? I mean, Helen Mirren, Piers Brosnan, Tom Hardy, Paddy Constantine, directed by Guy Ritchie, written by Jez Buttersworth. Was this an instant yes? Oh yeah, it was a no-brainer. Yeah. And it's as delicious as it sounds. I mean, it's the funnest playground to be in. It's mental. I mean, we finished shooting the show on the Wednesday night in the middle of nowhere in Surrey and on Thursday at four o'clock we were doing the Leicester Square premiere of the show. It was the quickest turnaround I've ever been a part of. They were still editing it? Oh yeah, as they, yeah and I

think because they dropped it weekly they almost like bought themselves time to do it in that way. Otherwise yeah it would have been impossible but the great thing when it came to press is that it was all very relevant and present in our minds because we literally just wrapped so I could remember my character's name. Well done, that's a good start. Very satisfying ending so thank you about that. And you, your husband, the actor Raza Jeffery and your two little ones you've got a four-year-old and an eight-year-old, well done you. You've left LA and moved back to Britain. Yes. Why was that? I mean very good, we are very happy. Oh I'm very happy too, I

mean numerous reasons. It was time to come home, our children were hitting kind of school age and there was something nostalgically I wanted for them and there's a lot going on in America right now and it's it was a conflicting tricky place I mean America's been so good to us and and will remain and and we're all citizens so I'm sure we'll go back at some point and we have that luxury to be able to but it was just it was time to come home and get back on on the London stage for me personally. You're one of those amazing actors who's always so busy your CV is is incredible. What's what's coming up next?

Oh gosh, so the hack comes out on in September on ITV about the phone hacking drama starring David Tennant Hopefully season two of Mobland. I think enough people are yearning for it. So that's a positive sign And like I say, we're at the Barbican for another five weeks in Fiddler on the Roof. They are, thank you so much. My pleasure, thank you for coming to the show as well. My pleasure to watch the show, thank you for bringing the cast in and Fiddler on the Roof is on at the Barbican Theatre until the 19th of July before touring the UK and Ireland from the 24th of July. Lara, thank you and thanks to all of you for sending in your messages, I'll be back tomorrow.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. going about it. In this series I'm gonna sit down with 12 incredible guests who are really gonna help me rediscover what love truly means and how I can find it again. People like Stephen Fry, Louis Theroux, Matt and Emma Willis and many more. So join me on this journey as I explore how to be in love. Listen on BBC Sounds.