Woman's Hour - Abortion stories - today we hear from Amanda.

Episode Date: November 5, 2019

Earlier in the year we asked ‘have you had an abortion? How did you feel about it then and how do you feel about it now? We’re featuring five of your stories on the programme over the next couple of weeks. Today it’s the turn of a woman , who’s in her 60’s, who we’re calling Amanda. She became pregnant aged 21 in the early 1970s, while she was on holiday with her boyfriend.As Northern Ireland prepares for the Election; What are the parties doing to appeal to women? Imogen Pinnell a Health Information Manager at Jo's Cervical Cancer Trust tells us more about a new DIY home urine or swap test which, when it becomes available, could help more women discover whether they are at risk of cervical cancer.. Plus Mark Simmonds and his daughter Emily talk about over coming mental illness – outlined in the book Breakdown and Repair.And in our series where we asked you to tell us about and send us photos of your "Best Day" we hear from Listener Evelyn Austin.Presenter Jane Garvey Producer Beverley PurcellGuest; Emily Simmonds Guest; Mark Simmonds. Guest; Imogen Pinnell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. You might have heard the headlines or seen some of them today. Is it true? Is the cervical smear test on the way out? Also today, more from our abortion series. Listeners telling us why they had an abortion, how they felt at the time and how they view it now. Today, you can hear a powerful account from Amanda, who got pregnant when she was 21 in the early

1970s. And Emily and Mark Simmons, dad and daughter, respectively, they will talk about their mental health recoveries on the programme today. Emily has had anorexia nervosa. She's now 23 and she acknowledges she'll never be completely free of it but she's a young woman working having a good time living her life and hers I hope will be a positive story

for you on the programme this morning First then, the front page of the Mirror today says the end of smear testing DIY home urine sample kit to revolutionise cervical cancer screening. Is this true? It is a home urine or swab test which we're told could potentially help more women discover whether they're at risk of cervical cancer.

It's being touted as an alternative to the smear test and wouldn't require a visit to a doctor. Scientists at Queen Mary University of London asked 600 women to provide self-collected samples for screening. Let's talk to Imogen Pinnell, who is a health information manager at Joe's Cervical Cancer Trust. Imogen, good morning to you. Hi, good morning. Thanks so much for having me.

Well, it's a great pleasure. First of all, just those headlines. Is it true? Is the smear test not going to be a thing of the future? Well, it's great that everyone's getting so excited. We're obviously really excited to see these advances as well. But I think what's important to remember is that this is brand new research that's come out today about the urine testing. We need to have further research to make sure that the evidence is as robust as possible to make sure it is the right

test. So for now, we're going to continue with the traditional way of cervical screening, but in the future, certainly we hope to see self-sampling come in. So 600 women have already done this. What precisely did they do? So what researchers were looking at was whether a urine self-sample, so weeing in a cup essentially, could then be tested to show if there are cell changes in the cervix. So if they can detect that someone already has those cell changes, which means we then know which women are at higher risk of going on to develop cervical cancer. And that test obviously can be done in the comfort of your own home. It doesn't need to be done in a doctor's surgery because you can send that sample off yourself now i don't know

whether you've seen the front page of the mail their headline um is there is this the end of smear tests and then underneath it says new procedure will let women send off swab to check for cervical cancer avoiding ordeal of going to the doctors. Now, for me, that is, for a start, I've had a smear test relatively recently, not pleasant. I don't think it would come into the category of an ordeal. What do you think about the language? I mean, look, we do need to be mindful of the language we're using around any kind of health test, really, because the most important thing is that it's beneficial for people and it could be beneficial for their health and it's for them to you know decide if it's right for them and but we do need to big up the benefits of this test so using that kind

of language may not be so helpful the thing that we want to make sure of is that for people who haven't already been invited they're not immediately put off and for people who do have difficulties with the test and we're not kind of saying, yes, it's going to be awful. Instead, we should be focusing on, okay, if you find the test difficult, there are ways to make it better. And how can we at Joe's Cervical Cancer Trust particularly support you in making that test better for you? Are you concerned, though, that when people see headlines like this, they might think, well, I won't go for one of those very painful sounding smear tests because I'll just hang on and in the end I'll just be able to pee in the toilet at home it won't be a problem. Yeah we are definitely concerned and I

think that's why we need to get the message across that this research is brilliant and it's so promising and we do hope to see self-sampling in the future whether that's a vaginal swab or whether that's a urine sample off the back of this research but right now the test that we have is very effective and there are ways if you find it uncomfortable which we know a lot of women do there are ways to make that better yeah we should say as well that sometimes you have to acknowledge the person carrying out the smear test some of them quite simply are brilliant at their job and it's as painless as it could possibly be absolutely and we and we hear all sorts of experiences look we hear from women who have no problem with it and would go automatically every time because they've always had that great experience we hear from other women who you know

maybe they've had a previous bad experience maybe they've had some trauma their past. Maybe they have another condition that makes it more painful. And so it's these people who do find it difficult that we want to reach out to and say, well, let's have a think about some things that might support you. Maybe it is a smaller speculum. Maybe it's just taking someone that you trust to calm those nerves. And there are a number of things that could help. Really good to talk to you. Thank you very much for getting the message out there. Change is coming. But in the meantime, if you get that call up for your smear test, do go. Imogen Pinnell is a health information manager at Joe's Cervical Cancer Trust. Your thoughts on that? Welcome, of course, at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram. Now,

the party conference season is something that we have featured over the last couple of months, actually, on the programme. And if you missed any of it, you can catch up via BBC Sounds, of course. It isn't actually over the party conference season. The DUP conference was relatively recently. Sinn Féin are meeting on the 15th and 16th of November. So we thought it was high time we caught up with our BBC Ireland correspondent, Emma Vardy. Emma, good morning to you.

Good morning. We should point out, of course, all this is happening with the backdrop of Stormont, the Northern Ireland Assembly, still not sitting, and that's not likely to change in the near future, is it? I'm afraid there's no sign of it, really. There are big gaps that remain between the two largest parties, the Democratic Unionists and Sinn Féin, issues that, without a resolution, the parties say they can't get a power-sharing agreement,

they can't get back into Stormont. Now, that is a source of great frustration for many voters. Just talk to people on the streets here, and they frankly will often tell you they've had enough of it. But it doesn't really seem to change the pressure on the parties enough to get them back into government. One of the biggest outstanding issues, just quickly for you, is an Irish Language Act, a big demand of Sinn Féin,

the DUP aren't quite ready to give them what they want. And that's one of the issues really holding up them getting back into government together. But of course, it's not as if nothing's been happening. Abortion has been decriminalised, same sex marriage has been legalised, and the general election is up and running in Northern Ireland as everywhere else. So lots of talk of electoral pacts and yesterday Sinn Féin made an interesting announcement. Tell us about that. Well that's right Sinn Féin won't be running in three seats and really this is the first time that we've seen both the nationalist parties Sinn Féin and the SDLP, stepping aside in each other's

seats. And the reason? Well, it's Brexit to help maximise the anti-Brexit pro-Remain vote. So, of course, on all the issues you've just mentioned, Brexit is adding an extra level of complicated dynamics to the already difficult politics here in Northern Ireland. Now, of course, Brexit is seen as perhaps the biggest issue for many parties in this election. And in Northern Ireland. Now, of course, Brexit is seen as perhaps the biggest issue for many parties in this election. And in Northern Ireland, the issue of Northern Ireland's union with the rest of the UK, another big issue, which is feeding into all the arguments here. But the pacts, as you say, have been a feature of Northern Ireland politics in the past, generally with unionist parties stepping aside in each other's seats to maximise the unionist vote, the intention to be

to maximise the number of unionist MPs in Westminster. But that added dynamic of Brexit, as you say, we're seeing these PACs now, they don't call them PACs, the parties themselves, that's what we call it in political analysis, particularly with the nationalist parties trying to maximise the anti-Brexit vote. To add to the confusion, as if it could get any more confused, a lot of people don't appreciate or frankly don't have enough headspace to remember that Northern Ireland voted Remain, in fact, which is why it's so interesting that the DUP, who are the people who sit at Westminster, dominate the conversation. They are a Brexit party, aren't they? Yeah, and I think, you know, if you were outside Northern Ireland, you're watching, you're listening from afar,

you might sometimes think the DUP are the big party that you won't hear about in Northern Ireland. But of course, we always try to remind listeners and viewers that, you know, they don't speak for everybody. But because they've had this alliance with the government, they've been thrown into the spotlight, had this very prominent position when it comes to Brexit. And that's been difficult for the DUP because it's even put them at odds with some of their more moderate unionist supporters who might have actually been anti-Brexit themselves, but naturally Democratic Unionist Party voters who believe very strongly in the union between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. So it's added a very complicated dynamic to this. Now, of course, the DUP are the

strongest, the only really strong anti-Brexit party out of all the Northern Ireland parties. And their mission, their sort of raison d'etre for this election is to say they're going to stand against Boris Johnson's deal. They don't like it. They see it as a betrayal because it puts Northern Ireland into this different sort of regulation system to the rest of the UK. And that's going to be a big fighting point for the democratic unionists and the pro remain parties in Northern Ireland. Of course, they didn't want Brexit at all. And they want to try and push for the softest type of Brexit possible. The sort of Brexit which keeps everything very much the same as it is now

with absolutely minimal change to trade between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Now, the DUP had its conference relatively recently and Boris Johnson had gone last year but no sign of him this year. Yeah it was a very striking absence. Last year he was the star turn if you like you know lots of back slapping handshakes a big round of applause when he took to the stage because back then he seemed if you like to be the DUP's saviour. He had a vision of Brexit they were much more on board with when they were very, very unhappy with the path that Theresa May was pursuing. But fast forward to a year and, my goodness, what a difference. You know, all that sort of buddiness with Boris Johnson has faded away very quickly

because at the last minute, the deal he agreed to was a step way too far for the Democratic Unionist Party. He did agree for the need for those customs checks going from Great Britain to Northern Ireland on goods. You might say, look, it's just technical checks at ports. It's just boxes, you know, crates being checked. But in Northern Ireland, for strong Democratic Unionist Party supporters, they feel it's a betrayal. It feels like the centre of gravity shifts towards an all-Ireland, a united Ireland, and they feel it undermines the union with the UK, and that is the heart and soul of what the Democratic Unionist Party is all about.

Well, a united Ireland is precisely what Sinn Féin do want. So what are they likely to be talking about at their conference the week after next? Isn't it the 15th? Yeah, well, Sinn Féin, of course, have always been very, very strongly anti-Brexit. And they will continue that. And it's really a mark of the election that they are standing aside in seats that they might normally contest because they want to help those anti-Brexit candidates.

And one particularly interesting battleground in Belfast is North Belfast, where the leader of the Democratic Unionists in Westminster, Nigel Dodds, has his constituency. And there we've seen the Nationalist Party, the SDLP, standing aside to allow Sinn Féin to put their candidate forward and push Nigel Dodds very, very hard. So it's going to be a really, really interesting battleground. And Sinn Féin will be telling their supporters that only they can really look out for the interests of a united Ireland being their ultimate goal but really to keep the trade between Northern Ireland

and the Republic of Ireland the same as it is now so Brexit will feature very strongly. Well Emma thank you very much. May you have a good election and we appreciate your involvement today. Emma Vardy, BBC Ireland correspondent and as I say you can refer back to BBC Sounds for coverage of the conference season elsewhere.

And we're going to be talking to leading politicians about their plans to appeal to you, women voters, as the election campaign formally gets underway. And we want to know, actually, where you are in the country and what matters to you in the general election of 2019. What will decide your vote? There will always be more on our minds than Brexit, I'm quite sure. So let us know, please.

Just email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour and just put in the subject space election. And that will help us to distinguish between that email and loads of the others that we get in every day, notably actually yesterday, so many people wanting to talk about abortion, which is something that we feature again in the programme today. Now on Thursday, children's vaccinations. Have you ever hesitated about getting your children immunised? Why? Which ones bother you? Is it measles, all about measles,

or is it the flu or the HPV vaccine that you're not sure about? Email the programme please, womansour at bbc.co.uk or via the website. but clearly feeling it as well. Hundreds of you did exactly that. And you can see those photos we're talking about on Twitter, on Instagram and on the much-mentioned Woman's Hour website. Today, it's the turn of a very glamorous image of a woman on a trapeze. It's Evelyn Austin, who lives in a village in the Cotswolds. And here she is telling Laura Thomas about a momentous decision. I was a 20-year-old girl. I was working on Jimmy Chipperfield's circus. I was doing a trapeze act. It was what I've always wanted to do since I was a little girl.

I can remember watching different circuses on television. The Smarts Christmas Circus used to be on every year and it was something I always dreamed of doing. And when I was 16, I actually ran away from home and joined the circus. Just how cross was your mum? She was absolutely beside herself. A, I was only 16 and, you know, I'd come over from Ireland to the UK to spend time with my sister who lived in the UK, my elder sister,

and it was from my sister's house that I legged it in the middle of the night. Trapeze obviously was my love, but I had to do lots of other jobs as well, and you're in a different town every week, so it was a pretty tough life, but I wanted it so badly I didn't care. I just loved it. I adored the circus. When I look back and reflect on it, I think, golly, how determined you were. Because as a young girl, I must have been so determined. I can remember being petrified leaving my sister's house in the middle of the night to get to the underground, to get to wherever I was going.

I can remember being petrified running down the lane thinking, oh, my God, what am I doing? But I was so determined. That was my goal. My goal was to become a trapeze artist. And that was the first little little step of, you know, getting away from home and doing what I wanted to do. And I think my mother forgave me in time, even though she was every time I've performed, which was obviously twice a day. She used to say a prayer just before she knew I was going in the ring, going back to the Irish thing.

Of course, we say prayers a lot. And say another prayer when she didn't hear there was any problems afterwards. But I think she was very proud of me, really. Hence that she kept all my cuttings. My costume, actually, my mum made my costume. So your mum went from being really angry to making your costumes? Yeah, my mum was actually brought up in show business and I was the only one out of us ten kids

that went into the entertainment business. By this time she was making all my costumes, yeah. So I think it was pink and it was covered in silver bugle beads. It was one of my favourites because it was so comfortable. She would have sewed every one on by hand. So it was one of my favourite costumes, which is why I obviously wore it on that day. Life was pretty good.

Well, that was the fantastic story of Evelyn Austin, and it's a great image as well. The trapeze, the sparkly outfit, it's all there. And there'll be another one of those along shortly. They're very good, those little just dips into people's lives, aren't they? Now, yesterday, you will have heard that incredible account by a woman we call Claire about her abortion, about why she had it and how she felt about it.

So much reaction to that. I'll just read one email now. What a moving story from Claire, how brave she's been to go through all that without even confiding in anybody. It brought me to tears when she related how the nurse gave her a hug. I hope the staff at the abortion clinic hear this and realise how much they helped so many women. I'm the mother of two girls and a granddaughter, and I think this could have happened to any of us. Well, we know that many, many women who listen to this programme have had abortions, and that's why we felt really strongly

that we needed to feature some of those experiences. There are going to be five of them all together. Claire started us off yesterday, and, of course, that is available via BBC Sounds. Today, it's the turn of a woman now in her 60s who we're going to call Amanda. She got pregnant in the early 1970s, she was 21 and on holiday in Europe with her boyfriend. Here she is talking to our reporter Henrietta Harrison. I was on a remarkable holiday with someone I was very much in love with and we didn't take

any care really. I have to tell the truth about that. We were young lovers, we were at university together, I was older than him by two years, he was still in his teens. We were very very happy and very romantic as well. The thought of getting pregnant had never crossed my mind and it didn't worry me at all at that point. Because you were just happy in the moment. I was in love. So can you just take me through how you found out you were pregnant and how you felt when you found out?

I had this strange insight that I actually was pregnant at the time, almost the moment it happened. I think within about 48 hours I was sure actually was pregnant at the time, almost the moment it happened. I think within about 48 hours, I was sure I was pregnant. And worried then? Not initially. Initially, we had a kind of romantic ideal that we might not take the train all the way home, we might get off and make a life in the countryside with our little child. And it was ridiculously romantic. But we got back and my period didn't come. And my period didn't come twice. So I knew. Can you remember how you were feeling then?

I was very aware of what had happened because of my own personal situation. I had a father who had brought me up. My mother had died when I was a child and he was extremely strict, extremely strict. And I knew that there was no way that I could ever share this with him. And also that my boyfriend, being a lot younger than me and really on a trajectory for a very good career, there was just no way that he would actually be able to cope with having a child around. So I think I allowed myself to be focused on the needs of these two men rather than my needs and what I truly wanted and realised that what was right for them was that I had an abortion. So I didn't think that what I wanted mattered. What mattered was keeping things right with them and for them. So this was the 1970s, so it was only a few years after abortion had become legal in 1967. So what actually happens then? How do you actually get a

termination in the 1970s? Well, in my case, I was at university, so I returned to the student medical services. And in those days, you had to see two doctors. They were two male doctors and they asked you all sorts of questions and again, made me feel quite small. There wasn't a great deal of sympathy or indeed empathy from those doctors. It was that I had to see them. I had to go through this procedure. Things had to be ticked on a sheet of paper. And eventually, oh, well, yes, go on then. You can have an abortion.

It wasn't a positive thing for me. It was definitely, I was seen as somebody who had to be processed. Where did you actually have the procedure? It was paid for, was it? It was private? No, it was NHS procedure. And it was in for was it was private no it was no it was NHS procedure and it was in a local hospital he was with me when I woke up and I pretty quickly descended into quite a I wouldn't say depressed time but a very very time. And one of the things that happened for me internally was that, not physically, but in a spiritual way, I felt opening up inside me an enormous gap,

a very dark place inside, following the termination. And again, I wasn't able to share it with anybody but him, and he couldn't cope with it. So I had to close down couldn't cope with it. So I had to close down and just deal with it myself. Can you put into words that sort of darkness that you felt? Guilt and shame were there. One of the things that I did immediately, I returned to my own digs at university, was open my cupboard and remove from it the best clothes that I had. I happened to have some really lovely things at that time.

And I proceeded to put them in a black plastic sack and take them to a second-hand shop and get rid of them. So I was punishing myself because, yes, I guess I felt guilty and ashamed ashamed but I couldn't share that with anybody I couldn't tease those feelings out so it was all part of this morass of darkness which seemed to be inside me. How long would you say those feelings related to the termination went on? Well they were very acute throughout the summer and into the autumn. And then university terms started again, and I think I had to put them in the background. I didn't tell any of the friends that I shared accommodation with

what had happened to me. But it was there and lingering. I had a sense that I knew who this person was that I had terminated. It felt like a person to me, not just a collection of cells. I sensed that it was female. And over the years, indeed, I never let go of the fact that I knew what age the child would be on its birthday as it came round. And indeed, even now, I mean, I know that the child would be something like 45 years old.

So the imprint of the memory, both in my body and in my soul, really, it was really very strong. You said that there was this depression and this darkness, but in some ways you have come to terms with the termination more recently. Can you explain how you've managed to do that? Yeah. 20 years ago, I was working with a very, very helpful person

who I did share my history with. And he was able to take me through almost a ritual of letting go and it was a deep and meditative thing but it was also very focused on what what it was that was clinging to me and helpfully and surrounded in this case by prayer by the end of it I felt that the presence of this person this soul was no longer with me and it it gave me huge relief but that had taken that had taken more than 25 years to get to. Some people do see an abortion, a termination, as the removal of a collection of cells. But you felt and you feel like you ended a life.

I wouldn't put it that way. I didn't end a life or kill anybody. I didn't murder anybody. But there was a soul with me at one moment, and then there wasn't. It left me. You obviously found it very difficult to come to terms with your choice to have a termination, or perhaps it wasn't even your choice. But do you think that was purely internal, or were there some sort of outside forces that were making you feel more ashamed? You were brought up with faith, weren't you?

Yes, I was brought up in a Christian family. And that was a faith that I adhered to marginally at that time. But of course, it formed me. It's what had formed me. I wouldn't say, though, it was the faith that oppressed me after the termination. It was actually my helplessness, my sense of being unable to do anything about this because of the way things were. Because there were two men who were so powerfully influential in my life that their needs had to come absolutely before mine and also the fact that it was still pretty shameful to have a child outside marriage.

I only knew of one person at the university who was trying to do their degree and bring up a child without being married. You know, early 70s, it was still pretty unacceptable in society as a whole. You went on after university to have a public role in the church. We can't say exactly what you've done because it identifies you. How did your faith help or hinder, I suppose, is the question? I think that it wasn't until later life that my faith

really was a help in letting go. It was with this moment of letting go that I did with a friend and a declaration, essentially, that there is not punishment waiting for me. There is only love and love is present right now. And that's what underpins everything. Even I understood that love was with me even when I was making that horrendous decision and that I what underpins everything. Even I understood that love was with me even when I was making that horrendous decision and that I'm no less loved now than I was at the beginning of my life and that the child or the conception that I had is no less loved than it was then. So that is something I grew into. My faith grew enormously through the process of letting go. And it also informed how I helped people who came to me,

who perhaps had been through the same situation or who had had other losses. It very much helped me to just hold them and allow them to do whatever they needed to do. Pro-life campaigners say that what you did was a wicked thing to do. How do you respond to their campaigns? I don't have a vision of judging and punishing God any longer. I think probably if I did have, then yes indeed, you can then pronounce that other people are wicked. But I don't do that anymore. I just feel that walking alongside people and understanding their situations with love is far more important than standing in judgment over them. But if pro-life people feel that they need to judge people

who have had terminations, then that's where they happen to be. Do you regret what you did? I regret my inability to trust people, my inability to trust people, my inability to open up and perhaps find some support and help and somebody to really listen to me before the date of my termination. That's what I regret, but I've only been enabled to do that as I've grown. If the 21-year-old girl came to you now, what would you say to her? I would listen. I would listen. I would listen.

And help her to find the right way forward for herself. Well, that was a woman we're calling Amanda and our reporter there, Henrietta Harrison. Now, if you need support, go to the BBC Action Line website, bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. And on Friday, you'll hear from a woman who felt that having another child was just not possible. And that an abortion was the only choice for her and her family. And thanks again to women like Amanda, prepared to tell their story, and to the many, many people who've emailed the programme about their own experience. And we'll read out some more of those in the Women's Hour podcast today.

Now, back in June, the programme did a series about teenage mental health, talking to young people, their parents, teachers and health professionals. You can find all those programmes on BBC Sounds. Today, something, well, it is slightly different actually. It's a dad and daughter combo. They're here, Emily Simmons and her dad, Mark. Mark, Emily, welcome to the programme. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Mark, you have written a book called Breakdown and Repair, a Father's Tale of Stress and Success. We should say that you were the archetypal alpha male career man, weren't you? That's very kind of you to say.

Well, OK, outsiders would have seen you that way, wouldn't they? Yes, I think there was a time when I was in my late 30s and I was very ambitious to do well and I wanted to get on, succeed. But I didn't quite really understand my core personality, to be honest. And I think at that point I started to unravel, let's say. And after a while, a little bit like Chinese water torture, there was a drip, drip, drip effect of stress, stress, stress. Until one day the brain simply said no and that was that and that's when I had uh back in 2001 a stress-related breakdown at work and um sort of one thing led to another and uh it then moved into a depression um and three or four

months later uh unfortunately when there seemed to be no kind of way out that i i did uh make an attempt on my own life um but fortunately um um so i'm here to tell the story and uh and then i sort of reassessed things quite quite carefully and thought to myself look come on life must be more than simply sort of working sort of nine till nine at the weekend so i was sat back and just had to think about things with my wife mel and we just sort of look, come on, life must be more than simply working nine till nine at the weekend. So we sat back and just had a think about things with my wife, Mel. And we just sort of got our house back in order. And I became much more balanced in terms of my work and my life.

And I think between 2002 and 2012, we had just a great decade. So everything was happy, rosy. Yeah, well, you talk about that in the book, and actually the London Olympics played a significant part in all that, didn't it? It was that golden period, which I think actually so many of us look back on now as, oh, they were great days. And then, Emily, you'd done your GCSEs, and what happened then? Yeah, it was around that time, and I think it was a really stressful time at school

and things had, in my head, got more serious at school and I was studying. A close dance teacher who I was very close to passed away quite suddenly and it was almost like everything in my life suddenly became out of control and I didn't know what to do and I think I kept everything quite bottled up in my life suddenly became out of control. And I didn't know what to do. And I think I kept everything quite bottled up in my head.

And I found something that I could control, which was my eating. And it was strange. It kind of came from nowhere. And I hadn't ever met anyone who had had an eating disorder before. So for a long time, I didn't know what was going on. And I didn't really know how to express myself and how to talk about it and it it quite quickly became much more serious and I yes I just started reducing my intake and and one thing led to another and it got got very serious quite quickly. I know you now

understand the impact of all this on the rest of the family your mum Mel has already been mentioned you've got two brothers one older and one younger how how was it for them it was really tough um my my older brother was when I started to get quite bad he was away at university which was a blessing in disguise I think it meant he he wasn't around it he wasn't around the arguments and he didn't see my decline but my younger brother he was you, he must have been 14 at the time. And he was at home and had to listen to everything. And I think for him at the start, he really didn't understand what was going on. And he'd seen me so happy and full of life and playing sports all the time. And suddenly, just a complete change in my personality and we I remember we just stopped talking I mean I stopped talking to everyone really including your dad yeah including dad I I did I just went completely into myself and I would come home from school and I would go upstairs and just sit by the radiator and on my own just I had no idea what was going on inside my head something it was did you sorry to interrupt but did you know how unwell your dad had been

at the time no I was I was quite young when dad first went through um his breakdown I think I must have been about four and I think I now know and I now understand it obviously a lot better but at the time I just remember I remember him being very quiet and very reserved and we we kind of would go on family holidays and we would all laugh around and we'd all be chatting and then it got to a point where this dad was locked away in his office and that was just something that I guess I didn't really understand at the time and you know as the years went on I learnt more about it but even only more recently do I really know how tough it got. I mean the good news was that the kids were quite young at the time

so I think it was Jack, two, Emily, sort of four or five and Will was seven but I remember about sort of six months ago when I started sort of finishing off the book I went to Will and said, Will, I'm just intrigued to know, do you have any recollection of that time? Because just as a dad, I just almost wanted him to say, no, I completely have no recollection whatsoever. And Will said, because he was the eldest, said, actually, I'd hardly remember a thing, to be honest, Dad. So and I kind of breathed the big sigh of relief at that time. Because of your own experience of mental health did you believe that gave you a special connection to Emily in some way or even a responsibility for her? Well I think I mean to answer the second bit for sure a responsibility

because there was no more space in the house for any more mental illness so to speak so I had to look after her along with Mel and Will and Jack. But I think that what I could bring to the party, so to speak, was I had an understanding of what Emily was going through. So when I looked into her eyes, I could sort of understand the feelings of desperation and of complete lack of hope. And so what it gave me was an ability to empathise

with what she was thinking, what she was feeling, and in a sense, sort of speak the language of irrational, if that makes sense. Well, I have to say, the person who emerges from this book, although she doesn't feature all that much, is Mel, your mum, your wife, Mark. And I, if I was going to categorise myself, I'd probably a bit of a male i too am from planet rational um and you obviously go along with your dad's thinking here do you i do sadly but also i suppose that's a good thing but no we um mum mum is very rational and that made things really difficult for us um for for me to be able to speak to her which is so sad because before I got unwell we were as close as you can get as mother and daughter um talking all the time I'd come home from school and we chat about anything and everything and when I started to get unwell because she was so rational and she could see what was happening to me but couldn't understand why we just clashed and we our relationship went through a really tough time um and I think

she just wanted to she wanted me to understand it but I was in a place where I couldn't and I couldn't understand what I was feeling so wasn't then able to talk to her about it and she would say things like if you're not you know if you if you don't gain weight you're going to die and in my head there's just I I couldn't I couldn't understand that and I almost didn't care it was at a point where she would say things and it would just make me angry and then we would have arguments and we just clashed and it was it was really tough we have talked a lot in the past about anorexia on this program and other eating disorders they are awful and when you are in the midst of what you were going through, you are in the grip of something over which you have absolutely no control.

You are here. You are 23. You had some ups and downs along the way. How would you how would you assess your own situation right now? I couldn't tell you how happy I am right now. It was a really tough journey and it was something that I would never wish upon anyone. But I have learned so much about myself and I'm a much stronger person because of everything that I've been through. And it is something it completely, as you said, it just it takes over your whole life and you are engulfed by this horrible thing that is controlling you but it's something that now I've learned to live with and I am living my life to the full and I've got a really great job um amazing friends who stuck by me through everything um and I I think my relationship with my mum and obviously with dad as well is so much stronger

because of it it's well can I ask about the role of the mother in particular? Because this is Women's Hour, obviously. What could a mother do in those circumstances? It's hard because you can tell, you can see what a mum wants to do. She wants to just cure and wants to fix and make everything better. So, you know, telling you to eat and telling you all the things that you should hear. But actually, for someone who is going through inner torment,

it's just basically being there to offer support and to give you a hug and basically let you cry when you need to cry. And I suppose just giving emotional support as well as guidance and making sure that the daughter knows or son knows that everything is going to be OK, because it really is and you can come through it.

Well, the beginning of the end for you in terms of your anorexia was, and I know it'll never be entirely over, by the way, but was your 18th birthday, wasn't it? It was, yes. Just very briefly, if you can, describe where you were on your 18th. So that morning I'd been woken up to to be weighed just as we had to do when I was in a clinic which no one should have to do on their 18th birthday and I was allowed out for an hour so we went to a nearby pub and all of my friends surprised me there and brought me presents and I was with mum and dad and my brothers um but I think for me the the turning point was that I I saw them sat

there so full of life and looking so well and they'd all had these amazing 18th birthdays you know being able to drink and um going out and having fun and in my head I just thought I can't keep doing this back and forth I don't want to be sat here on my 21st birthday in this position looking at everyone else having the most amazing time and me going back to a clinic where I'd spend the rest of my days doing puzzles and you know painting to pass the time so I think that was probably the biggest turning point for me was just not being left behind and realizing that there was so much more to life than what I was currently living and how I was existing and that realising things could be better and I could be back with my friends as if nothing had changed which which now it is that's that's what

it's like. Well that was Emily Simmons and you also heard from her dad Mark and that book which if it's going to be of any help to you um I hope actually you don't need the book, but if you do, it's called Breakdown and Repair, A Father's Tale of Stress and Success. And it was good to see Emily just being so positive about her life. She actually works on This Morning. And last week she had to do, I think she said it was an umbrella test on telly, which involved large amounts of artificial wind and rain and which to be fair to my colleagues at women's hour they probably say working with me was just as difficult but i suspect

doing through doing an umbrella stress test with holly and phil is no walk in the park either so our very best wishes to emily in particular and to her dad mark now, to your thoughts on the programme today, cervical smear test, Kate says, could the future in this case, please mean in the next six months? Thanks a lot. Which indicates that Kate knows she's going for a smear test within the next six months and isn't looking forward to it. But I mean, nobody looks forward to them, but they could save your life. That's the thing. Anonymous anonymous says ordeal is the right word for cervical smear tests for some of us the past three for me have been really painful due to early menopause and dryness it is painful and invasive i am thrilled at the prospect of an

alternative um yes thanks for that and from helen after the rollout of hpv testing in the state some health care professionals raised concerns that it was a way of saving money by removing the need for smears. They went on to say that the smear was a hugely useful way of picking up on all sorts of other health care issues as women were actually being seen by a doctor or a nurse. This wasn't just useful for gynecological conditions and brought women into the system, which wouldn't necessarily happen otherwise. Yes, that's a good point. Just making the case for bringing women into a health facility of some sort. When, of course, if you're just peeing in a cup at home, you don't need to go anywhere, do you? Another listener.

What about those women like myself with cervical changes which are not caused by HPV? I assume they would just fall through the net if this new screening is implemented. I don't know is the answer to that, but it's a good question. I can't believe that would be the case, but thank you for raising the issue. Deborah says, 27 years ago, I had to have a radical hysterectomy as a result of cervical cancer. I'd always been to my smear test, but this cancer had developed rapidly between them. I would urge all young women to go for smears,

as a couple of minutes' discomfort is certainly better than the surgery and the interventions that I endured. One more, I can't tell you how pleased and relieved I am that this new cervical cancer test is coming in. I know how important it is, as been through that. That really does, it sounds grim. must just press on a nerve and it is the most unbearable pain. Right, I'm sorry to hear that you've been through that. That really does, it sounds grim. Now, I did say we've had lots of emails about those abortion interviews that you've heard today and yesterday and there'll be another one on Friday of this week as well. Today's speaker, we gave the name Amanda to her, didn't we? And Sarah says, please pass on my deepest respect for the women

who've had an abortion. It is a hard, difficult, joyous experience to have a child. But what can I say? If you can't bring up a child properly, whatever the reason, it's better not to have one. It is a brave decision in my view. From Sandy, hearing Amanda this morning makes me think about what a wonderful and brave person she is and how I would love to have spoken to someone like her when I was supporting my daughter through her abortion. It's always a difficult decision to make, but the guilt we are left with lingers on for far too many years. From Cheryl, I listened to Amanda and was very taken by what an impressive person she is.

Your interviewer said that pro-life people would think what she did was wicked. Well, I'm pro-life, but I would never think such a thing. It is possible to be in this position without being judgmental. And it's possible too, to be respectful of other people's views and decisions. Another anonymous listener, I had an abortion many years ago and all the ladies had to stay overnight. The evening spent in the company of other women, all overcoming the same intervention, but with various different emotions, was the best therapy ever. I can't remember what was said, however, I'm still grateful we were made to stay. It put a difficult time into perspective and it helped with my mental healing. From Bob,

the interview was deeply moving with Amanda. I felt her honesty and courage will be most helpful to others. And here are a couple of emails that came in on abortion after yesterday's experience, which you can find on BBC Sounds, of course. I had an abortion 37 years ago, and there isn't a day goes by that I don't think about it. The circumstances seemed justified at the time, and I did marry the father father but divorced some 11 years later. I've never had children and I've never told anybody about it nor will I. To tell anyone will not change what happened. And again this is in reference to what we put out yesterday with the woman we're calling Claire. I too had an abortion at the same age as your listener Claire,

but in rural Wales. Whilst I was terrified at the positive pregnancy test, I had a supportive GP and was able to tell my friends and my parents. My mum came with me to the hospital for the abortion and supported me afterwards. I never once felt ashamed of my decision and have always felt able to speak about it openly. Only rarely have I felt judged and I've

challenged the views of those who have judged me. It is such a common experience, more so than people think. I have many friends who have had one, some have had more than one. Thank you to everybody. Again, I can't actually express my gratitude enough on this because it's not easy to talk about and I think hearing hearing these stories has has really helped so many of you so thank you to everybody who has contacted us and to the conversation I had with Emily and Mark Simmons another anonymous email thank you for mentioning how mental health problems impact on the siblings it's never been acknowledged how my sister's illness impacted on me as a 15 year old I'm now nearly 40 and I'm just figuring it all out.

I wish I'd had someone to talk to. And from Rosemary, I am from Planet Rational. I feel that I failed my daughter by being so, both when she went through mental health issues and in retrospect, during the events that led up to that time. I will always wonder if she would not have become ill if I could have been more sympathetic. I find it especially sad as when she was a small child, we had such a rapport that we knew each other's thoughts before we expressed them.

Yes, thank you, Rosemary, for that. I think, as ever, mums in particular are so good at giving themselves a hard time, whatever the circumstances, whatever happens. Thank you again to everybody. And you can join Tina Dehealy for Woman's Hour tomorrow. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.