Woman's Hour - Abortion vote, Crime writer Karin Slaughter, Co-sleeping with older children, Racing driver Abbi Pulling

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

In the biggest shake-up to reproductive rights in almost 60 years, MPs have voted to decriminalise abortion for women in England and Wales. This would mean a woman could not be prosecuted for ending her pregnancy after the 24 week limit, but medical professionals and others could still be held criminally liable if they assist. Nuala McGovern speaks to the BBC's political correspondent Alex Forsyth and Conservative MP Dr. Caroline Johnson, shadow minister for health and social care, who had put forward another amendment which would have required a pregnant woman to have an in person consultation with a doctor or appropriate medical professional before being prescribed medication to terminate her pregnancy, aimed at stopping so-called 'pills-by-post' abortions.Crime writer Karin Slaughter has sold over 40 million copies and been called the ‘Queen of Crime.’ She's been writing for 25 years and has just published her 25th novel. Called We Are All Guilty Here, it's the story of two teenage girls who go missing and the start of a brand new series featuring police officer Emmy Clifton. Karin tells Nuala why she wanted create a new series and how she manages a book a year on top of all the TV adaptations on her work. Do you co-sleep or bedshare with your school-aged children? A few years ago the Clueless actor Alicia Silverstone was criticised for saying she sleeps in the same bed with her 11-year-old and that she was 'just following nature.' It’s a divisive topic that provokes strong opinions and disagreement. So how common is it and what are the advantages and disadvantages of doing so? Nuala is joined by Genevieve Roberts, parenting columnist with the I newspaper, who regularly sleeps in the same bed with her children, and Sarah Blunden, Professor of Clinical Psychology and Head of Paediatric Sleep Research at Central Queensland University. One of the young women making waves in the male dominated sport of motor racing is 22-year-old Abbi Pulling. She’s considered as one of the most promising young drivers in world motorsport - she won the 2024 'F1 Academy' season, which has been set up to develop women and girls in the sport. She’s the first female driver to take a race victory in British F4 and is now racing in the GB3 category. Abbi told Nuala about the difficulties around funding for getting into racing and if women could make it into the top tier of Formula 1. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. One of the most famous faces of her time. She was a beautiful woman, a sex symbol, a Hollywood star who was never seen for who she really was. As an inventor, as a brain, a genius that history overlooked. The explosion in telecommunication sciences that was in large due to Lamar. That should not be forgotten. From the BBC World Service, untold legends, Hedy Lamar. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

BBC Sounds, music, radio radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, in the biggest reform to abortion laws in nearly 60 years, MPs have voted to change legislation to stop women in England and Wales being prosecuted for ending their pregnancy. We'll hear from our correspondent on what changed and also next steps for it to become law and we'll also hear from the Conservative shadow health minister Dr. Caroline Johnson this hour. And we have the American crime author Karen Slaughter. We Are All Guilty is her 25th novel in her 25 year career. Now I know many of

you are fans and love to get stuck into her book, so get in touch. Maybe you have a question for her or just a fangirl moment. 84844 is the number. Instead, early in her career is 22 year old Abby Pulling. She is the winner of the F1 Academy Championships, which is funnelling girls and women into the upper echelons of a male-dominated sport. Abby Pulling is one of those trying to make her way. She's got her eye on Formula One so we're going to chat to her. And we want to get into the somewhat sensitive issue of co-sleeping with your school-aged children. Do you co-sleep or bed-share with them or Or have you ever done so? Why? Why not?

Has it affected your family dynamics? Tell us all. The good, the bad, the ugly and the beautiful. You can text the programme the number is 84844 as I mentioned on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note that number is 03700 100 444. But let me turn to the biggest shake-up as I mentioned to reproductive rights in England and Wales in almost 60 years. MPs voted last night to decriminalise abortion for women in England and Wales. This would mean a woman could not be prosecuted for ending her pregnancy after the 24-week limit. But medical professionals and others could still be held criminally liable if they assist.

Here's the Labour MP Tanya Antoniatsi who put forward the amendment to the Crime and Policing Bill speaking in the House yesterday. Originally passed by an all-male parliament, elected by men alone, this Victorian law is increasingly used against vulnerable women and girls. Since 2020, more than 100 women have been criminally investigated, six have faced court and one has been sent to prison. Women affected are often acutely vulnerable, victims of domestic abuse and violence, human trafficking and sexual exploitation,

girls under the age of 18, and women who have suffered miscarriage, stillbirth or who have given birth prematurely, facing invasive and prolonged criminal investigations that cause long-term harm. Now, you might remember we spoke to Tonya Antonietzky last week on Women's Hour in a moment, the Shadow Minister for Health whose amendment calling for in-person consultations before the prescription of abortion pills. Her amendment was defeated, we're going to talk about that.

And I do know this is a topic with strong feelings on all sides as was borne out in the debate. We can speak now to the BBC's political correspondent Alex Fortside. Alex, great to have you with us. This was a free vote, so MPs did not have to vote along party lines. But can you give us a brief overview of what happened yesterday? Yeah, I mean, as you say, this is clearly a very emotive and sensitive subject, which does provoke really, really strong feelings. And I think you saw that come out in the debate in the House of

Commons, because it was a free vote or a conscience vote, as some people call it in the political jargon. It means people were whipped along party lines. And you saw people in some circumstances really speak from an emotional or personal perspective about this. I think obviously, the arguments that were being put forward by Tonya and Tonya Atsi, who is the Labour MP, as you say, that put forward this amendment and those who were supporting it.

They were saying that at the moment, as the law stands, because the Abortion Act means that it is legal to have an abortion in certain circumstances, but beyond that, it can be treated as a criminal offense. And you heard some of them raise cases where women have found themselves in those situations, so subjected to police investigations or even prosecutions. And they were saying that that wasn't the right thing, that women in those situations should be treated with compassion in their words rather than the face of criminal

prosecution. But you also saw people in that debate raise concerns about the possible implications of this change, particularly what it would mean because as you say since 2020 women have been able to access abortion pills at home via either telephone or video consultation with a medical professional and there were some concerns raised about the implication of that when it comes to this change in the law. So it was an impassioned debate but in the end a significant majority of MPs supported this change in that law to decriminalize abortion for women so they can't be prosecuted when it comes to their own pregnancies. But as I was mentioning doesn't extend to medical professionals in the same way which is such an interesting twist shall we say in this particular

amendment. So what happens next? Well now this obviously wasn't a specific piece of legislation designed to deal with this issue of abortion. This was an amendment that was tacked onto another very hefty piece of legislation, the Crime and Policing Bill, which is currently making its way through Parliament. And that still has some parliamentary stages to go through. But the government has made clear, even though as a government it was neutral on this issue, it didn't take a stance, because the majority of MPs showed a clear will for this law to be changed, the government has said that it will enact that. So the details I think are yet to be worked out,

but in terms of the parliamentary process, as long as that crime and policing bill goes through, then this change in the law will take effect. This is just for England and Wales, however, different to Scotland and Northern Ireland? Yeah, absolutely. This is England and Wales specific change in the legislation. Northern Ireland has a different set of rules governing abortion. Interestingly, in Scotland, there's actually a review of abortion laws that's going on at the moment, which is yet to report back. But this is specifically an England and Wales proposal. So that's what MPs were voting on yesterday. That's what they've decided. But it is a very significant change in the law, as you said, right at the very beginning, you know, dating back to that 1967 Abortion Act. This is a really quite significant shift for MPs to have voted for, which will apply in England and Wales.

There was, Alex, some criticism that it was a fairly short debate. Some said too short for such a complex issue and such a big change Yeah, I mean this is something that does come up often and you have to just put in mind the context of this It's actually quite unusual in Parliament that you find issues that come up like this which are issues of conscience that people are given A free vote on and of course we have two coming up this week We've had this issue this discussion around a potential change to abortion laws But then we also have assisted dying which is back in the up this week. We've had this issue, this discussion around a potential change to abortion laws, but then we also have assisted dying, which is back in the Commons this week. And that will be a sort of familiar argument for some people that, you know, actually when you come to these big issues, which are very complex, very sensitive and very emotion, is there adequate

parliamentary time and scrutiny given to such a change in the law? Now, I think the people who were advocating for this change were saying this didn't come out of the blue, it was something that has come up before in the parliamentary process in Westminster and been discussed, but you are right to point out there were people who said this is quite a short, I mean the debate was only a couple of hours and that is because of the way this sort of parliamentary process works, this was an amendment to another bill, so there was a finite amount of time given in the Commons to discuss it but as I say there are advocates of this who would say that the broader conversations around this subject have been going on for some time. The BBC's political correspondent Alex Forsythe thank you so much for joining us. Just before we came on air I spoke to the conservative

MP Dr Caroline Johnson she's shadow minister for health and social care and she had put forward another amendment which would have required a pregnant woman to have had an in-person consultation with a doctor or appropriate medical professional before being prescribed medication to terminate her pregnancy aimed at stopping the so-called pill pills by post abortions. She does speak of telemedicine which refers to when you have health care consultations and services which are delivered remotely often via video calls or other digital platforms rather than in person. Now her amendment was roundly defeated 379 MPs voting against 117 in

favour and I asked her whether she was surprised by that result. Not really but I am concerned by it because I am very worried about the safety of this Pills by Post scheme and I'm sorry that the House didn't take the opportunity to make legal abortions as safe as they can be. You know there was a statement from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists saying restricting telemedicine would significantly reduce women and girls access to an essential form of health care in England and Wales and they say there's a wealth of evidence to show that telemedicine for early medical abortion is safe, enabled women to access treatment sooner and that the service is

preferred by women. What would you respond? Well I think it's true that it is more convenient for many, many women to access abortion via telemedicine. And it may well be safe for women in early pregnancy, but what we are seeing are cases where women who are not in the early stages of pregnancy are accessing telemedicine abortion. And we heard some harrowing cases in the chamber yesterday of women who believed they were much fewer weeks pregnant than they actually were, access to telemedicine and ended up with really traumatic circumstances and

a risk to their health as a result. And many have pointed to a lot of these women being very vulnerable though. I mean do you agree with the concept of decriminalization of abortion for those women that would be affected by this change? I think what it does is it creates a situation where a woman can now legally have a termination for any cause up until term. And I actually think it risks women being pressured to take medicines late in pregnancy by coercive or controlling partners. And because there's no safety step in terms of a face-to-face appointment where the clinician would see the woman alone and be sure that she was alone to talk to her and get an offer her the help and support that she might need, I actually think it's a high risk.

Do you think though that there is a pathway for a woman who is incredibly vulnerable, for example, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists also talk about women perhaps who fear detection by a coercive partner or a family member for example and that would not be set up for a face to face appointment that you're calling for. Well I guess the question is there is a risk in such a situation that a woman is detected as it were attending a clinic appointment at the clinic but there's also a risk of a

woman receiving, such a woman receiving pills by post, you know, would such a partner look at what was arriving in the post and wonder what it was, even if it did came in a plain envelope, would such a partner notice that someone was having an online consultation? I mean, I think there are significant issues with coercion, but I think in my view that the pills by post system just enhances that, and we have seen you know prosecution of a man who got a woman who wasn't pregnant to get these pills and

then gave them against the woman's will to a woman his partner who was pregnant inducing a miscarriage at I think 15 weeks so he got caught how many others have not? I was listening to earlier the writer and journalist Joan Smith. She was on the Today programme and she said that great social change is behind this decriminalisation result because there is greater understanding of the circumstances that vulnerable women find themselves in. I'd be curious for your thoughts on that and also whether you feel out of step with your parliamentary colleagues on this issue.

I think there is a concern about many women in society and I think that the Pills by Post scheme makes trafficked women, women who are sex workers, the victims of grooming gangs, the victims of child sexual abuse, at a higher risk. Now it is more possible to obtain pills and give them to women against their will. In terms of our respect with Parliament, well clearly the vote was lost, so yes, Parliament voted differently and we are in a democracy. I don't think I'm out of step with the public's opinion on this issue though. It is a very contentious issue, as we always know when we talk about this on Woman's Hour with very strongly held and differing views. But I'm curious, where do you go from here?

Well, I mean, several things will happen. I think one is that this bill will go to the Lords and then the Lords will have a rethink of this issue, I'm sure, again, and we'll see what they come up with. One of the concerns that I have is the fact that new clause 1 has passed means it may be more difficult to collect data on the women and to identify those women who have had late terminations, perhaps by accident or perhaps as a result of some coercion or abusive behaviour, because there won't be any investigation. So I'd be interested to see how we can identify and support those ladies.

Expand on that a little bit more for me. Well, so at the moment, if there is a late termination that is unexpected, there's some degree of an inquiry into whether someone has been abused. We have seen a lot of prosecutions of men under this legislation. Now it's been repealed, will it be more difficult to collect the data? Because when the miscarriage or abortion happens, there won't be the investigation to uncover the fact that the man has been abusive, behaving abusively. So I think what we'll have to do is try and I think more will come out. I think we'll gradually see. And one of the things I warned about in 22, when this was extended was the

fact that the pills by post, you mean, it'd be more accessible. When the pills by post was extended, my concerns about many of these women, many, many of these women who are abused in this way won't even know about it. The gentleman who was convicted obviously got caught, but many others will not have done. And that is my fear. And young girls who have been victims of grooming gangs or child sexual abuse in the home who

may be fed these medications against their will, may not be aware of it ever. And even if they are, we may not be aware of it for many years to come. Are there any mitigations that you're hoping for to the bill as it goes to the Lords? Well, I don't know. The parliamentary arithmetic is slightly different in the Lords, but any changes the Lords make will have to come back to the Commons. And the arithmetic showed yesterday that the Parliament is very keen for these pills by post to be available, and the abortions to term to be legal for women to do themselves. Although Parliament hasn't given any legal mechanism for women to do that. It just made it legal for them to do so.

And I think that puts them in a vulnerable position because it's legal for them to do so. But then there's no legal way for them to do it. No legal and safe way for them to do it. You are a consultant paediatrician. Does your medical experience in any way shape your position? I mean, many some frame abortion as a health care issue. Many others disagree with that characterization. I think it depends on the circumstances, but I think it is a health care provision and women should be able to access legal abortion in my view, but they should be able to do

it safely and this is why I said yesterday, my amendment wasn't about pro-life and it wasn't about pro-choice, it was about pro-safety and I see this through a safety prism. Hi thanks to the MP Caroline Johnson there and before my colleague Alex Forsyth. Just listening also to Caroline talking about she felt out of step with her parliamentary colleagues, she says not with public opinion, I couldn't find any wide-ranging or full-scale polling into that issue, current latest issue of Pills by Post, on the public. So we'll have to keep watching that one. But thanks to Caroline. If you have been affected by any of the issues

discussed you can visit the BBC Action Line. Karen Slaughter. Some have called her the queen of crime and in 25 years of writing she has sold over 40 million copies. Put your head around that figure. Now she's written her 25th novel. We're All Guilty Here is the start of a brand new series that comes out this week. It's the story of two teenage girls who go missing and the police officer, Emi, who desperately is trying to find them. Many of Karen's books have already made the leap from page to screen. Pieces of her was adapted for Netflix. The Will Trent series is on its third season on Disney. There's another adaptation in the works and Karen is with me in studio today. Good morning.

Good morning. Good to have you with us. So new series starting again. Where did this one come from? Well, it touches a bit on what your previous guest was talking about, and that's the erosion of women's and girls' rights that we're seeing particularly in the United States. And wanting to center a book around a woman who is in a very precarious situation in her life. She's a sheriff's deputy. Her father is a sheriff. Her name is Emmy Clifton. And she is raising a young son. She's dealing with elderly parents and her marriage is falling apart. And in all of this, we have a case come up of young

girls who are teenagers and who are feeling isolated and alone the way teenagers do. And of course, since they're in the first chapter of one of my books, something really bad happens to them. And Emmy has to figure out not just why, but what their lives were like before this moment. Interesting. And I know you were coming at it from one perspective, just as you speak about the United States. It was actually a conversation this morning on Today about why it's different in the UK compared to the US. Donald Trump has been elected, he's a very popular president with some part of the country, not with another part, and they may disagree with some characterizations.

But with this, from when I started reading the book, I start seeing it's all through women's perspectives. It is, and that was deliberate on my part. You know, I've written Will Trent for many years. I love writing Will Trent He's a wonderful character and a really good guy and I just thought now was a time to do a reset I of course, I'll be writing Will Trent novels in the future But for now North Falls is going to be a series and it was wonderful to do a lot of world building in town and to be a series and it was wonderful to do a lot of world building in town and have Emmy's life and her connections in the town. World building. Yeah she

comes from a family called Clifton and there are rich Clifton's and poor Clifton's but they basically run the town and some of them are good and some of them are bad and part of the series is figuring out who is who. How do you do that? So Norfolk's in Georgia, just to put our listener in the geographical location. How do you build that world? It's so much fun, you know, and I just sit around a lot and stare into space. So anyone wondering what I'm doing when I'm staring is that's what I'm doing. In a cabin? Yeah, I have a cabin. In the Blue Ridge Mountains? In North Georgia. And I love just sitting up there and looking at the trees

and the forest and just being immersed in the story and figuring out how things work. I did write a series in a very small town called Grant County when I started out and there's only six books in that series because it was too small. And so this time I thought I need to make it larger so I have more areas and places to kill people. And so this Clifton County is a bit larger. North Falls is where all the established wealthy people live. So I started with a crime there. You know, many people wonder whether your name Karen Slaughter, because it is crime thrillers and there are people who die in them, whether it's your real name. It is. I paid for it when I was a, no girl going through puberty wants to be slaughter, right?

I was teased relentlessly and so I feel like I've earned it. You get, from the get-go with this book, you get straight into the mind of teenage girls and what they're thinking about and how did you do that? Were you going back to your teenage years? A little bit. You know I think every writer writes from their own lives but I mean there's a line about how hard it is to grow yourself into a woman particularly now with social media and all these the sexualization of young girls and you have 15, 16 year olds who are still playing with stuffed animals and who have very, 16 year olds who are still playing with stuffed animals

and who have very girl-like interests and they're being sexualized because they're on the cusp of womanhood. And I wanted to talk about that as a social issue. Like why do we say when something bad happens to a 14 year old, oh she's a victim and when she's 15 then she's a seductress. And that's where we are when we start this novel with these two characters Madison and Cheyenne. It's really interesting because this week on

Woman's Hour and in the UK you may have seen, Karen, when you're here there's a lot of stories about rape gangs and about young girls, children really being groomed and not being seen as children but being seen as women previously. I know you've previously spoken about your feelings about writing about violence against women not wanting to sensationalize it or entertain with that. Talk me through how you balance it. Well I mean one thing is I have been following these stories about the gangs, and it's very focused on the gangs, but not the victims, or the fact that no one listened to these girls and that they had criminal, quote unquote, pass.

Well, they had these criminal pass because they were using drugs and alcohol to deaden what was happening to them. But they were being blamed for their own victimhood and blamed for their sexuality. And, you know, so no one is, to my reading, to my thinking, and based on what I've seen happen in the United States, I mean, this is not a new thing, criminal gangs turning out young women. There's no focus on the victim. And that's what I want to do in my work and have done from the beginning.

And one reason is because it's very close to me and my family. My grandmother was horrifically abused by my grandfather when I was growing up, and we never talked about it. And my big strapping uncles, my father had eight brothers, they would joke with my grandmother about being clumsy if she had a black eye or a broken bone. So tough. with my grandmother about being clumsy, if she had a black eye or a broken bone. And as I got older, I thought, wait a minute, no one's that clumsy, right? And my sister said, we don't talk about it. And I know that it never protected her to not talk about it. So when I started writing about violence against women, among other things, I thought, I'm

going to talk about it. It's not sexy. There's no seduction. It's not sexy. There's no seduction. It's not love. It's just abuse and rape. Throughout the book there are lots of crime statistics. For example the percentage chance in the states of finding kids when they go missing or are abducted. So your writing, some mightn't be aware, is grounded in real life facts and figures. Oh absolutely, and I think it's important for my work at least to

ground it in actual numbers. One thing I was very aware of is every woman I know who's reading this book knows the dangers out there. I mean we're trained from a very young age to be alert and to be hyper aware of our surroundings and not go places and to always be assessing what's safe and what's not. And I think in many ways this might be one of my most frightening books because every woman also did something incredibly stupid when they were a teenager. And you look back and you laugh but it's how did you survive that? You know? Completely and I think we meet 15 year olds on the first pages and they talk about some of the parental figures, if not the mum, who have just turned 30.

And then you realize, as an older woman looking at a 30 year old, that that woman is a young woman trying to guide the teenager in this difficult world with so many emotions and I suppose societal pressures also on these teenagers. Yeah, you know, that's the one thing about being young is you never think you're going to get old. Actually, it never occurred to me that I would get older until I was about 40 and I thought, oh my God, what is happening? You know, you wake up and things hurt. And they hurt for the rest of your life. And I really keyed into that because there's such an innocence to it.

And I wanted to constantly remind readers, these are young girls. And you know, we talk a lot about young boys and the loneliness epidemic, and young girls are just as lonely. They tend to externalize things in a more socially unacceptable way. You know, we accept anger in young men, as that, you know, they're just angry young men, but with girls, if they cry or they feel emotions or any if they feel need or whatever We attach a lot of negative things to that and so I wanted to put Madison and Cheyenne squarely in that and also give Emmy who is 30 and when you read the opening of the book and her best friend Hannah and They also were at a time teenage girls and they also made

horrifically stupid mistakes but they made it through. That could be another call out to listeners at some point what they did when they were teenagers but in the meantime I was saying for people who are fans here's one, don't have a name but they say please tell Karen I'm a massive fan. Pretty Girls was the book above all that had such an effect on me. The last chapter was particularly harrowing and the story was in some ways left unfinished. Can you ask Karen if she's ever thought of having characters Will and Sarah revisit any of the towns to investigate historic murders?

You know I do love an unsolved or a cold case and I would definitely do that. I don't think I would do Pretty Girls necessarily. Sorry listener. Yeah sorry. I do, I love that story. It was a lot of fun to write and there's lots of twists and turns and anyone who reads that can read any other book of mine because if that doesn't scare you to death then none of the others will. You are also, so that they're the books, but we're having adaptation, oh water bottle dropped down, we're having adaptations as well and I wanted to know what it's like being that part of the process. So I have this vision of you by yourself in the Blue

Ridge Mountains in the cabin but now let's think about when you're a script writer and an executive producer, as you have been on previous projects. And then you have the upcoming adaptation of The Good Daughter, I'm looking forward to this, Rose Byrne, Megan Fahey. And you are the show runner. What does that mean? What are you doing? What does this entail? Yeah, it's a good question. It's the boss of the show, basically. Yeah. So anything that goes wrong is on me. I have a great group working with me. Steph Green is our director. Most of the department heads are women, which is really interesting.

And a change. Yeah, it's nice. And our camera guys are lovely. And many of them have worked on Will Trent. So they're very familiar with Karen Slaughter's storytelling. It was really, I'm still doing it. We've got a week when I get back before we finish filming. So just a week. Okay, when can we expect to see it? I hope in the beginning part of next year, we'll see. It's not up to me. But it's been a lot of fun. And I've written all the scripts and I've hewed very closely to the book and the actors are amazing. There's just so much nuance and energy and fun and everything from

my books is there so I hope people enjoy it. What does it feel like when something comes to screen? It might be different actually with a good daughter because you are the boss woman. With others you kind of have to let people do their thing I imagine. Is it a frustrating process if they're not exactly like they were in your mind? Well, I think if you're an author and you option your work, one people should know that's a choice. So you can always say no. But I for me they feel like adaptations, or rather interpretations of the work.

So people kind of forget that writers are creative people in television shows. The director has a creativity involved. The set designer, the actors, they are all, it's very collaborative. And I jokingly say, I'm the boss of the good daughter, but everybody, the best idea wins is always the rule and it's not always the best idea coming from me. So it's very collaborative and when you do option, you're saying to someone, I trust

you to have the vision. So you get someone like Toni Collette in pieces of her and it's amazing. And I love Will Trent, Ramon Rodriguez. I mean, first he's objectively one of the sexiest men on earth. Let's just put that out there. But he has the heart of Will Trent. He really understands the character, the supporting cast understands. So I'm very happy with what they've done.

But with The Good Daughter, I wanted to do my own thing. And so very much that's more in line with how I write the books. So you know, when I was introducing you the 40 million copies, the 25 books, the 25 year career, how do you fit it all in? I have no idea. Your girl is tired right now. That's smiling. Yeah, I am. idea. Your girl is tired right now. That's how. But smiling.

Yeah, I am. I'm always aware that I'm very fortunate. You know, when I first started, I was talking to Mark Billingham about this because he's also at 25. He looks much older than me because he is and haggard. But he said, you know, I never thought I would have a 25-year career. And I said I did, but not because I was confident, because I was stupid. I just assumed it would keep happening, and it did. And I look back and think how lucky I am, because many great writers whose books I love and enjoy, they just kind of fell off, and they're not doing it anymore.

So what was the special source? I don't know. I think probably because I said yes to a lot of things. So I toured and I put in a lot of work meeting my readers and I spend a lot of time online. My publisher might say that's probably not very effective because I'm wasting time posting pictures of my cats instead of writing my books. I wanted to know was there Wi-Fi in the cabin? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

I'm not living like an animal. But yeah, I think part of it is just I got lucky. Another part is every book I start, I say to myself, it has to be better than the last one. I want to do something new and interesting. Because I didn't start writing to, as lovely as you are, be here on Woman's Hour. I started writing because I love writing start writing to as lovely as you are be here on woman's hour I started writing because I love writing I love storytelling and I love the craft in

Honing that skill and I want every book to be different and new and exciting to me And I think maybe that's part of the secret sauce Karen slaughter. Thank you so much for joining us in the woman's era studio Even if it's not your favorite thing to do, we're really glad you did do it. We are all guilty. Here is her latest book and it's out on the 19th of June. One of the most famous faces of her time. She was a beautiful woman. A sex symbol.

A Hollywood star. Who was never seen for who she really was. As an inventor, as a brain. A genius that history overlooked. The explosion in telecommunication sciences that was enlarged due to Lamar. That should not be forgotten. From the BBC World Service, untold legends, Hedy Lamar. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

Now my question to you this morning, do you co-sleep, bed-share with your school-age children or have you ever done so? So a few years ago, do you remember this, the clueless actor Alicia Silverstone was criticized for saying she sleeps in the same bed as her 11-year-old. She said she was following nature. So this somewhat sensitive topic provokes strong opinions, disagreement. A lot of you getting in touch this morning. Some say it can hinder a child's independence or disrupt family dynamics. But how common is it? What are the advantages and disadvantages of doing so? I have Genevieve Roberts, parenting columnist with the IEIN newspaper, who regularly sleeps in the same bed as her children. We also have Sarah Blundin joining us, Professor of Clinical Psychology and Head of Pediatric Sleep Research,

a long way away at Central Queensland University, who also runs a pediatric sleep and psychology clinic. Joining me today from Adelaide, good morning to both of you, good morning Genevieve. Good morning Sarah. Good morning. Okay just a couple of comments. Tristan getting in touch. There's no reason for bed-sharing parents and children should not be in the same bed ever. It leads to a multitude of problems further down the line. Lack of independence, lack of confidence, lack of belief and self-belief in that child. They need independence, they need freedom, they need to be able to make up their own minds and have autonomy. They should not be sharing beds. Genevieve, what say you and tell us your story?

Well, I guess I never planned to be bed sharing at this stage. Age of your kids? So eight, six, two. It's more pragmatic than anything, and it's certainly driven by them. So I agree with the listener. I think it would be very odd if I were the one organizing this. But there is this pragmatic thing. If we have our eight-year-old can't sleep at night, she

needs sleep to be fresh for school. I actually, I wonder, I'm really interested to hear whether that does make her less confident or whether in fact it doesn't do that. It makes her feel safe and secure. So what happens? You're in bed at night time and then little pitter-patter. I mean, it is very, very rare. In fact, I can't think of a time this year that I have woken up in bed just with my husband next to me. There tends to be a child at least

who will migrate during the night through to our bed. And your partner stays in the bed even when little ones come in? It gets too crowded for him and sometimes, like depending on our work patterns and things like that, he will sometimes sleep in the top floor. The few times I've slept for children, I found them like concrete starfish, like very difficult to move etc. So I'm wondering, do you get a good night's sleep? I get a much better night's sleep than if I'm sitting with them trying to help them get back to sleep when they've woken. That's the thing that I find really hard. If I actually

get up in the middle of the night and I'm walking around and trying to coax them back to sleep, that I can't then sleep for a good hour or two. So it's time management on your part? Yes, yes. Let us bring in Sarah here. How common do you think is bed sharing with school-aged children? Thank you, thanks for that and thanks for your story Genevieve. That's really really interesting. It's much more common than we actually think. In countries that are deemed Western and industrialized and educated such as the UK or Australia, the US for example. Bed sharing is not very as common, at least it's not reported to be so. And I say that because

the literature and a couple of teams that I work with at Monash University in Victoria, Australia, have been investigating exactly this. Many people would say prior to giving birth to their children or their child that they will not co-sleep because like your listener wrote in saying that is absolutely something they would not do but then they do and when they do it works, it's great, it's calming, everybody gets good sleep and they continue. Sorry to interrupt you Sarah and this what we're concentrating on today specifically is school-age children. School-age children,

that's correct yes and that's what I'm talking about sorry, absolutely true. Because many people don't want to do it for whatever reason and when they do do it they realize that it's actually working for them, meaning they're getting good sleep and everybody's happy. It doesn't mean to say that it is accepted and there is, as you said, a very dichotomous argument out there in the society, the narrative being that children should not sleep with their parents, they should be independent. So to go back to a question, how prevalent is it? The prevalence is quite, you know, 10-20% in Australia and that's deemed to be an under-report. There's definitely, let me read a couple comments coming in. My partner falls asleep with our seven and ten-year-old daughters every night for the

past few years. They have a large double bed. We're a neurodivergent family, mix of autism and ADHD. And our ten-year-old struggles particularly with regulating emotions. She won't fall asleep without her mum next to her. Bedtimes have on many an occasion been hell in the past. Things are better now. Often my partner stays in bed with them all night, too exhausted to haul herself out into our bed. What about that though? And this comes up once you get into this topic. What about the partners, what about the intimacy between a couple if there is another adult in the family? Genevieve, I'm sure people probably mentioned that to you if you mentioned you co-sleep.

Yeah, it's very interesting, I'm very interested by how under-reported this is because actually at the school gates, I don't hear lots of people talking about it. But I think it is so much more widespread. I think probably an awful lot of couples would find that it's better to be rested. If you are exhausted, you are going to feel less likely to have sex than if you are rested. So you can fit in those timings far more than if by the time you actually go to sleep, you're so exhausted that you're absolutely shattered. So again, I think it's a short-term phase of life.

There's no chance I wouldn't expect, although parenting always surprises people, that I will have teenage children who want to be sleeping in a bed with me. So it is, while it's lasting, I think it's more helpful to be pragmatic and work it round than actually get to that state of exhaustion where all of us are dysregulated. And have intimacy etc. at another time when the kids have gone elsewhere. Which brings me to my next comment. We bed share with our two sons aged six and four. We swap between them each night and it works really well. Everyone gets the maximum amount of sleep as the boys go back to sleep

immediately if they wake up and no one has to get out of bed. It means they sleep in longer too. People who question intimacy with my partner lack imagination. Love our listeners. But could it be, Sarah, coming back to you, particularly, I don't know when you think your children will stop, Genevieve, your eldest is eight. Well, I find it interesting. This year, she's definitely starting to gain confidence. She loves

listening to audio stories. She's more likely to stay in bed. I can see a change already as she grows in confidence. I would be amazed if in a couple of years she's still doing it. She might wake up occasionally having a nightmare and drift in but I don't think it will be any way regular. And how does that feel to you that all the children might be out of your bed at some point soon? Well you know what I think I'm going to look back and be really pleased that we did it. Those cuddles there's something actually quite special about a 4 a.m. cuddle and as I say it's such a brief period of life that I don't think I'm ever going to regret giving my children security and affection.

You know, we were talking about Alicia Silverstone, the actor at the beginning, and her 11 year old that slept with her and she didn't care if people found it unsettling for whatever reasons. But what about the child, Sarah? Maybe embarrassing to admit to friends that you still sleep with your mum? It seems to be more the mum than the dad from what I'm hearing so far but whatever your parent. Yeah very good point. I guess there's what's coming out of this conversation and I'm sure that you've both heard it before is the reasons that we co-sleep. Why do we co-sleep? Because we want to, not because we have to, not because we found that it gives us better sleep or it makes the family better, whatever it might be. We choose to co-sleep or we choose to or we don't choose to

co-sleep depending on what our parenting values are and what our desires are for our family and what works. So what we're talking about here to Genevieve and for the actress, actor, is that they chose to sleep, to co-sleep, they generally chose to co-sleep and that's fabulous. There's nothing wrong with that and might I add that the evidence does not support a lack of independence for children who co-sleep. On the contrary, whilst that was the social narrative, the research evidence suggests that children that co-sleep out of wanting, not needing, that's a different thing, wanting to co-sleep and parents and the families are wanting and

everything is happy, the one's happy to co-sleep, are more independent, certainly as independent or more independent. However, if there is a child or children who are, you are diverse, or who are anxious or sensitive and need to co-sleep and find it very difficult to fall asleep alone, if the parenting and the narrative in that family is you must be independent, that's going to be tricky for that child to be, as you were saying, Jen, they have to, rather than sit there with a child

to try and be independent in their own room. Co-sleeping with them is a great solution. The thing about sensitive, anxious children, sorry, is that that is something that can be helped. It's a habit that we get into when we co-sleep. We don't have to do it forever. When the child or the parent wants it to change, it can be changed.

Co-sleeping per se is not a problem until it's a problem. And when it's a problem, it can be changed. Here's another. My almost four year old daughter has bedshared with us for the majority of her life. I only know one other family who bedshared, but surely more people I know must want to do it or it's such a taboo. I don't think people are often honest about it. Don't know why society accepts cats and dogs on beds but think children in beds are strange.

It's worked really well for us for the most part but I fear it's starting to run its course as my daughter will start school in September and I'm starting to tire of it. Only problem is I don't think she is. Hmm tricky one there. You, I was also reading economist Molly Gunn who talked about, she said, the sticking point, you probably saw this Genevieve, I can see you nodding, she talks about, the sticking point was my husband who wanted to train, I think, their daughter properly so that she slept in her own room. He mentioned more than a few times how he preferred not to have a child in our bed anymore. Yes, we are now separated. Are the two factors linked? Did the fact we

had a child in our bed every single night for the past 14 years cause a problem with our relationship? Hand on heart? Yes, probably. In truth, the natural bond between me and my children took precedence over my husband's wishes. You did have children in bed all night for a while, Genevieve. Yes, absolutely. Yes. And in fact, I was a solo parent. So my children were there before I met my partner, my husband. And I think it's so important that we hatch out time together. That doesn't necessarily have to be in bed. I think it's so important as well, or so interesting, that people can be so anti-children being in bed, yet they do want to sleep with their partner. So they're not wanting to sleep alone

themselves, but they're expecting their children to show this level of independence that the adults don't have. What about Sarah though, advice for a parent who doesn't want the child in the bed and the child does want to be in their bed? How do you wean them off it? How long is a piece of string really? It's like any bedtime behaviour. Let's say there might be a child that depends on a television to go to sleep. That's a habit that can be retrained, changed. I have done this for a long time in my clinic, written a book called The Boss of My Sleepbook

where kids of school age can learn to be independent sleepers and confident independent sleepers more to the point. If the child is very reticent, anxious, sensitive, nervous, neurodiverse, then that requires some psychological therapies. But it really is about trying to work with the child and saying, darling, I can't sleep with you anymore because that's the way it goes, for whatever reason, and helping that child to feel confident, independent, satisfied, and that it doesn't become a battle.

And that's kind of like a short answer for quite sometimes a complex situation. But honestly the families that come in to see me, many, many of them co-sleep, not because they wanted to, reactive co-sleeping because they're not getting any sleep. And that starts from the back foot really. It can be easily changed once it gets some good therapeutic input and both the child's feelings, confidence, independence and emotions are taken care of as well as the family's value system. Yeah and I'm sure there are many like our first, Conor Tristan will disagree with co-sleeping but it's a good conversation to have.

A lot of people getting in touch are doing it, so not as taboo among our listeners. I'm just thinking, Genevieve, before I let you go, children in the bed, some of them, when you meet your partner, was it difficult to explain that to him or was that just from the get-go? He realised this is part of the deal? I think he wants sleep as well. So he saw the amount of up and down that there was and sometimes he has to think he wants

sleep and your listener who said to use your imagination I'd say we both work in fairly creative fields and we can work that side of things out. You know I was just wondering in my head like how old could it go? Are you ready for this comment and then I will let both of you move on to our next guest. Dear woman Zara, I co-slept with my mom when my dad was away until I was 21. I left home at 18 but still bunked in whenever I visited home. My husband and I co-sleep with our four-year-old. Her choice, she preferred not to as a little baby. She's happy and confident as I am. So I'll leave it on that message. I want to thank both our contributors, Genevieve Robbers,

Parenting columnist with the iNews paper, and Sarah Blunden, Professor of Clinical Psychology and Head of Pediatric Sleep Research at Central Queensland University. Thank you so much to both of you for joining us. Thanks. Right. Now for some speed. And to one of the young women making waves in the male

dominated sport of motor racing. It is 22 year old Abby Pulling, she's considered as one of the most promising young drivers in the world of motorsport. She won the 2024 F1 Academy season, have you been watching that on Netflix? That was set up to develop women and girls in the sport, trying to funnel them in to some of the upper echelons. She's racing now in the GB3 category, so kind of moving up that ranking. Welcome, Abby. Hi, thank you for having me. Welcome on, and congratulations, I should say, on your win. I very much was enjoying Netflix, very exciting. It kind of pits all the women against each other. We get to know these personalities, the competitiveness that is there. How was it to do it? How was it to see yourself on screen? I mean, it's unbelievable.

It's crazy to think that I can turn on Netflix and see my own face on it. I've had a few friends and family, actually, that have turned it on and been like, I didn't know this was happening. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool. But to have such a momentous season kind of followed and documented and being able to watch that back is such a huge opportunity and this sport is hard to access and especially for younger women getting into it, it's increasing that visibility and I mean what F1 Academy is doing is incredible and I hope that we can see you know the next female F1 driver off the back of it.

So is that your ultimate goal to become a Formula One driver? I think any young racing driver in my position will say absolutely yes but I mean there's so many different avenues in motorsport. I've recently signed with Nissan Formula E team. Tell us what that means. Yeah well Formula E is a really high level of racing, it's professional, it's kind of like the electric Formula One if you want to put a name to it although they don't like calling it that. But to explain to our listener that it's useful. Exactly, yeah. But it's a huge opportunity and I've already worked with Nissan in the

past and to kind of broaden that and be more involved with the race team is super important to progress my career and to learn more. And yeah, they really believe in me and it's off the back of my achievements and what I've shown to them that I'm capable of moving up the ladder and they have backed me with that. And you obviously have the skill, really fun to see you winning. I was rooting for you and I knew you were coming in here. I was very much, but I'll throw that out to people. it is on Netflix, it's good watch. But your dad took you karting, that's where it started as it starts for a lot of people in motorsports. But this is, it's not just skill that you need, you need cold, hard cash. Tell us a little bit about that and how you were able to manage to find that and enter the world. I mean there is no secret that motorsport is expensive and

I think Lewis Hamilton is a really big vocal person on this that it's getting more and more inaccessible due to finances and yeah I mean my my family we're you know very lucky and comfortable but we don't have millions to spend on racing and got into go-karting and really lucky that my dad was already involved in motorbikes. So he kind of spread his love for the sport onto me, albeit I'm now on four wheels, not two. And yeah, it was always an upwards battle from when I was young.

And although my dad didn't tell me the ins and outs of it, as I got older, I figured it out more and more. And I mean, at the age of 16, I was in my, although my school probably didn't like it too much, in my ICT class making sponsorship proposals to go to businesses and teaching myself. And now I know how to use lots of different graphics software because I've been doing it since I was 16 and still do it to this day. Because you need sponsorship deals, you need brand recognition, social media, sponsorship, so there's that whole aspect of it. Right, let's get into another of it. Speed. What about the danger of

motorsports? To be honest, you don't think about it. Of course there is a lot of danger involved and I think anyone that hasn't done it since, I mean I've been doing this since I was eight years old, to jump into it at the age of 20, yeah it probably seems quite scary. But I think we're just a little bit unhinged, to be honest, as racing drivers. I did see, what would I say, a thread of a similar personality in some ways when it comes to the competitive spirit among the young women that were in the F1 Academy. Do you find it thrilling? Yeah, I mean it's the competitiveness of it. I mean if you would say being scared,

I'm more scared driving on the M25 sometimes because you don't know everyone else's intentions whereas where we're here on the racetrack we're all there and we're all going in the same direction you know and and trying to cross the line first at the end of the day. Which you did, pole position as we talk about positions. But the F1 Academy, so that was launched in 2023 for women and girls between 16 and 25. How important has it been for you? You won, no spoiler, the championship, which was really fun to see. I mean, it was a phenomenal year and I put a lot of the success down to mindset. I think in sport, an elite sport, it's really important to have that mental focus and it's how you

get the consistency and at the end of the day the consistency is what gets the points and wins. But how do you get there? Because watching the various young women, you could see that the mental resilience was the bit that might get you over the line or not. You came across as kind of cool, calm and collected. Is that a persona you step into or is that you? I mean, it was a very good year and I think that helped out. I had a lot of people around me which I think helped me stay in that mindset and really deliberately taking a step back and resetting after every event, not expecting the next to be dominant, putting in the work was really important.

And yeah, I think it was just all the work behind the scenes. I mean I do get emotional. You know, the last two race weekends in GB3, the step up that I've made, I've had a technical issue that's kind of interfered with my performance. And it's been, yeah, heartbreaking to say the least. It's been really frustrating and, you know, questioning myself and, you know, trying to figure out what's going on. And it is quite easy to get down. There's a lot of things in this sport out of your

control and that's the thing that you've got to remember and I think that's again the mindset that I'm taking this year is something's happened out of my control just focus on what I can control which is why I was so I think powerful last year as well. With women in motor sports mean, can you see a woman competing within your career for Formula One against the lads? I'd really like to hope so. I mean, the step up that I've made this year is against mixed competition. And I've grown up my whole life racing against the lads and girls, but majority lads. Because it's majority lads in that world. Yeah of course and I think what F1 Academy is doing and Susie Wolfe is

they've got a vision and they're really heading it up. Yeah got momentum with this and I mean if it isn't me or one of the girls I was racing against this year I always say I hope that it's one of the girls watching that's inspired you know that seeing it and seeing the change that's happening and that it isn't, you know, a man's world. It's turning into the norm to have so many females involved. And I'd really like to think so, but I don't think you can put a time on it. I think it's got to be someone that deserves it on merit. And it isn't a tick a box ticking exercise. Um, what is the fastest you've ever gone?

Really great question. Um, to be honest, I don't look at the top speed. The thing that impresses me most is the cornering and how quickly you can watching that and the G forces and what goes through your body. But if I was to guess, I mean I've driven an F1 car probably about 250 kph maybe? Let us leave it. Ongoing 250. Abbie Pulling, thank you so much for coming in.

Wonderful to have you. You can watch it on Netflix tomorrow. Anita will be speaking to Tricia Goddard. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. How is it that some brands and products really capture our imagination, seem to be ahead of the game, but then somehow end up toast? I'm Sean Farrington, presenter of the BBC Radio 4 series Toast, which unpicks what went wrong with big business ideas.

We hear from people directly involved in building the successes. They were looking for us to build scale quickly, gain a dominant market position and that's what we did. And get expert insights into why they faltered. So in effect, Woolworths was being drained of cash and people tried damned hard to save it. From FHM Magazine to Woolworths via Nike's Fitness Band and FreeServe's internet service.

Toast. Listen first on BBC Sounds. One of the most famous faces of her time. She was a beautiful woman. A sex symbol. A Hollywood star. Who was never seen for who she really was. As an inventor, as a brain.

A genius that history overlooked. The explosion in telecommunication sciences that was enlarged due to Lamar. That should not be forgotten. From the BBC World Service, Untold Legends, Hedy Lamar. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.