Woman's Hour - Abuse in the Church, Wages for housework, Youth work today

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

John Smyth is believed to be the most prolific serial abuser associated with the Church of England. In 2024, an independent review carried out by Keith Makin found that Smyth abused 30 boys and young men in the UK, and around 85 in Zimbabwe and South Africa. A new Channel 4 documentary, See No Evil, reveals the scale of Smyth's abuse and features testimony from victims and survivors, the journalists who uncovered the story, and from Smyth's family. Fiona Rugg, John Smyth's daughter, is part of the documentary and joins Nuala in the studio. Woman's Hour also hears from Madeleine Davies, Senior Writer at the Church Times, who has followed this story closely.As the government announces plans to spend £500m on youth services in England, what is the state of youth work today? Nuala is joined by Abbee McLatchie, Deputy CEO of the National Youth Agency, who has been working in and around youth services for 25 years, and Letitia Simms, a youth worker for the charity Cranstoun in the Routes youth advisory hub in Dudley in the West Midlands.Wages for housework was a feminist mantra in the West in the 1970s – feminist campaigners arguing for recognition of the economic value of domestic labour. The debate has been revived in India over the last decade with an estimated 118 million women across 12 states now receiving unconditional cash transfers from their governments. Devina Gupta, a reporter based in Delhi, and Professor Prabha Kotiswaran from King’s College in London unpick the impact of ‘wages for housework’ on women’s lives and the Indian economy.

Hello, this is Nula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed. Hello and welcome to the program. Today, Fiona Rugg, the daughter of John Smythe, the man believed to be the most prolific serial abuser to be associated with the Church of England. Smythe abused at least 130 boys and young men. You might remember an independent review last year into the scandal led to the resignation of then Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby. That interview coming up. Also, the government is set to spend £500 million on the youth services in England, as you were just hearing in the bulletin, saying that the money is needed to revive the decimated sector.

We're going to look at what that might look like and also ask what settings can really make a difference for young people. Plus, is paying for housework progress? Well, some of you might remember the 1970s feminist campaign that argued for the recognition and the economic value of domestic labour. We're going to discuss what's happening in India, where 118 million women receive cash transfers from the government for housework. It has its supporters and its detractors. And I'm interested in your thoughts on the idea of being paid for housework. Does paying help give value to the job of running a home?

Or does it possibly entrench traditional gender roles? The way to get in touch you can text us. That number is 84844 on social media where at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 0-3-700-100-444. But I am asking also, did you spend time at a youth club? For many, those places were more than somewhere just to hang out. You could make friends, you could learn new skills.

But they also could be an escape from a chaotic home life, perhaps even a lifeline. The government has announced today it is set to spend £500 million on youth services in England. And over the next four years, the aim is to build or refurbish 250 youth centres as well as launch 50 new young future hubs, which Labour says in its manifesto would be sites bringing together existing services under one roof. They say by 2035, half a million young people will also be paired with youth workers, volunteers and other trusted adults to help them stay safe online and develop connections. The announcement is part of the government's national youth strategy aimed. at rebuilding youth services over the next decade. But how much do we know about youth clubs and how they actually work? Where we're going to explore that today and find out what good youth work looks like

and what it can achieve for young people. To do that, we are joined by Abby McClatchy, deputy CEO of the National Youth Agency, which is a national body for youth work. It's been working in and around youth services for 25 years. And Letitia Sims, a youth worker for the charity Cranston in the Routes Youth Advisory Hub, in Dudley, that's in the West Midlands. Welcome to both of you. Abby, I'd be curious for your

reaction to the announcement today. Yeah, thank you for having us, Nala. I mean, we really welcome the strategy. We think that it's absolutely essential to really transform things for young people in communities. And look, what's really important is within that youth work and youth workers like Letitia are referenced over 42 times. They really are the foundation on which the strategy rests. I mean, the strategy on paper can only become real, really, in the hands of youth workers. They're the ones on the ground turning this policy into safety, support and opportunity for young people. But why do we need one? I mean, what do you see as a successful youth strategy? We know that the grassroots part of this is happening in communities where people like

Letitia, who will speak to in just a moment. But I suppose what can it really achieve? A few hours a week in a certain setting? Well, I think that that's part of the, part of the thing is about understanding what youth work is. So the thing about youth work is youth workers are often the adults that young people really choose. They're the ones that young people can talk to about safety, about relationships, about online pressures, worries that they won't say when they're anywhere else or to anyone

else. Youth work isn't just about buildings, it's about the people that are delivering the work. And the key thing about this strategy is that it's not just about helping to refurbish youth centres, but it's also about supporting those workers, those youth workers on the ground, who go to young people wherever they are. Youth workers working clubs, in parks, in schools, under a railway bridge, youth workers go to wherever young people are and really make the difference. Gosh, that gives quite a few different pictures. It's quite evocative, whether you're talking about a certain refurbished setting or under a railway bridge. I see we have another guest that has joined us there that has just jumped up in your lap.

Apologies. This is my dog, Stanley. Hello, Stanley. Good to have Stanley with us as well. Letitia, let me turn to you. So you're a qualified youth worker. And as we're hearing from Abbey there, you know, the adults that these young people come in contact with are one of the most important aspects of it. Tell me a little bit about the work you do. Yes, so I work for Cranston charity and we're a youth advice called Roots

and we're based in Maryhill Shopping Centre in Dudley. And, you know, the service that we offer, it's a service for young people aged 16, 13 to 25, sorry, where young people can come in and get advice on absolutely anything and support. We're a team of youth. workers there that just see young people coming in looking for support and absolutely anything on day to day life. So like what? Give us an example because that range 13 to 25. It's so broad.

It actually mirrors almost in a way what the government was talking about. They were talking by 10 to 21 up to 25 for those with learning disabilities. So give us an idea of the questions and the help that people are looking for. It really varies. I would. say, you know, one of the most common things is support around mental health. We see a lot of young people coming in with varying levels of anxiety and mental health concerns. Also, isolation. You know, we set the hub up with the thought that it would be an innovative project thinking about what the model may be for young future hubs, but the government was looking to put forward. And we thought that young people would mainly come in for advice and support, which they do.

But we also find that they come in as for a safe space to connect. You know, there's concerns around isolation and not having things to do in and around the area. So we actually have young people that come in and chill and chat to the team and just talk about their day-to-day concerns and get involved in activities. So isolation and trying to get away from being online. Trying to get away from being online is really interesting. But what sort of activities? They'll come in, play games.

We will work with various partners across the borough and will deliver projects for young people to get involved in. We'll hear their voice, allow them to have opinions in arenas where they wouldn't normally get to do that. How is it different? And I'd be curious for your thoughts and also Abbees. How is it different from support that schools give young people, for example, Letitia?

Well, I was speaking about the kind of things that I'm seeing in the hub on a day-to-day basis. It's more informal. It's like an informal form of education. You know, we find that young people just want a space where they can talk a little bit more freely about things and probably about topics that they might not be able to broach as much in school. And it gives them the freedom to do that

and meet other young people from different walks of life in a different environment that's, you know, The hub is set up. Our hub was designed with young people in mind and they designed what they wanted to look like. So it's a comfortable space for them. And give me an idea. Is it kind of casual sitting around, sofas, that sort of thing?

Oh, yeah. It is very casual sitting around. We can be playing games while we're talking. You know, sometimes some young people come in. They just have a space to come and do their homework and speak to their friends. And yeah, it's a very casual calm. comfortable place. And also, Abby, back to you. I mean, how do you get the young people who need

this support the most into a place, whether it's with Letitia or another person, you know, the people who need it? I think that it's all about the relationship and it's all about people like Leticia that are doing the work on the ground. And as I said earlier, youth workers go to young people where they are at. They can work with young people inside a school, outside a school in a youth centre. And so often workers will go and work with young people in communities and that builds the trust and confidence from the young people to then come into the youth centres and really engage and build that longer connection. I mean, in a world for a comparison and judgment and online pressure and some of the pressures that young people are finding in schools, youth clubs

just give somewhere, young people somewhere to go where they can just be themselves, no performance, no expectations, just a safe place to go with a safe person to talk to. Letitia, what would you say to that? How do you reach people who need this support the most? Well, the service is completely voluntary. So the young person's participation is voluntary. So they actually, they're seeking the service that we're delivering. We do have parents and carers that are seeking advice and support for their young people.

But I think that's something that makes it special as well. It's the fact that young people are hearing about our service. We work very, very well with services that interact with young people, the schools, the colleges, where you can find them to promote our service. And then it's very open for them to come in and out as and when they need to. But I suppose it does take initiative on their part to walk. over that threshold. I suppose what Abby's talking about there

is sometimes people going out into the community. Maybe back to you, Abby, what support do youth workers need to deliver the role that the government is proposing? Yeah, I mean, so one of the things that I always think is really important for us to remember is that young people have a right to youth work. It's enshrined in law. It's in the Education Act.

It clearly specifies that. And part of that law talks about the low authority's responsibility to advertise and promote all of the youth services that are available. So whilst we recognise that there are some intrinsic harms caused by online spaces at the moment for young people, actually we know young people spend a lot of time online. So how are we using online for good by using it as a way to advertise and connect young people to services? And local authorities, I think, have a really key role to play in that. And some might question, what really can a youth centre do or a hub also?

I know there will be 50 new young future hubs created by the government, they say. You've worked, Abby, with young women in the past. Perhaps you could give us an example or an example of how someone was helped. Yeah, I mean, these are the moments that you get out of bed for, to be honest, the young people that we work with and their stories. I'll give you an example. So about probably 20 years ago, I was running a young women's project in a really rural Rolex mining community. There was nothing.

The buses ran every hour, but not at the weekends. You know, young people were really isolated and the young women had nothing, nowhere to go. So we settled this project and we created opportunities for them. I remember we took them on a trip to London for a couple of days, which was just incredible. but one of the young women who came to that project, they became a peer mental. So she was then coaching and supporting other young people. She then ended up coming on and doing a foundation degree

and then her honours degree in youth work. And she then became the lead worker for that project herself. So youth work really changes lives. And it gives young people the confidence and the power and the skills to change things not only for themselves, but also for their wider community. And yeah, it's a really beautiful. thing when you see at work. Letitia, what have you seen? I've seen young people that have

we've been put on, we've been put, because we noticed that there was a gap for things for young people to do in the area. Over these summer breaks, we put on various projects and so forth for young people to get involved in. And we've seen young people who volunteered to come in joined in with these projects and they've given first accounts of improved confidence, improved social skills, building their interest in different areas and they're keen to get involved in more things in their community. You know, young people who've had social anxiety and it's built their confidence and they're now speaking in big forums and speaking to professionals about their experiences to encourage, you know, more money to come into the work.

And the future hubs, let's talk about them and what the difference is from the centre, Abi? Yeah, so the young futures hubs that are being talked about in the strategy are kind of really key because what they'll do is they're an opportunity to co-locate different services for young people in communities. So they will bring together lots of different professionals who young people have said that they really need support from. So things like good access to mental health services and counsellors, good access to youth workers, justice, etc. And those professionals will work together and the youth workers will be really key in brokering those relationships for young people

and helping the young people to feel that they can trust the other professionals in those centres. So we really welcome the commitment to the hubs and we're really, really glad to see that youth work is absolutely the golden thread running through them. Abby McClatchie, Deputy CEO of the National Youth Agency, and we also had Leticia Sims, a youth worker for the charity, Cranston, thanks to both of you, with the National Youth Agency, as Abby was saying there, they are supportive of the government. The Shadow Culture Secretary Nigel Huddleston said about Labour,

it says after they scrapped the National Citizen Service, a program that provided valuable opportunities to more than a million young people, any renewed investment in youth services is, of course, welcome. But young people need strong, a strong-growing economy, that can offer real jobs and real prospects. Under Labour, the outlook for the next generation is increasingly bleak. Only the Conservatives have a credible plan to break this cycle and secure a better future for the next generation.

The Liberal Democrats instead, they said the government needed to do much more to ensure all children had access to the local services they deserved. These in-person spaces and facilities are more essential than ever. At a time when social media and screen time is blighting children's mental and physical health, Mayor Wilson, the party's education, children and family spokesperson said The government also owes it to every child with special educational needs and their families to get on reforming the broken send system, ensuring they're not left behind. It cannot continue to kick the can down the road. The future of thousands of vulnerable children is at stake.

844, if you would like to get in touch. I want to talk about wages next. Wages for housework has been a feminist mantra in the West since the 1970s, feminist campaigners arguing for the recognition of the economic value of domestic labour. But it appears it has been happening in India for more than a decade, with an estimated 118 million women across 12 states receiving unconditional cash transfers from their government. Of course, it does have a population of over a billion people

just to put those numbers in context. But I am joined by Davina Gupta, a reporter based in Delhi, and Professor Prabda Kotiwaran, from King's College in London, to unpick the impact of wages for housework on women's everyday lives and the economy as a whole. There was a survey published earlier this year and it said that women in India spend five hours a day doing domestic tasks

and they worked it out as 7.5 times more than their male peers. Does that ring true for you? Well, Davina, good to have you back with us. So the payment started in Goa. That was back in 2013. Tell us a little bit about the political thinking behind this initiative. Well, that's right, Neola. But we are talking about the welfare schemes that go back to the 80s.

And Tamil Nadu, which is in southern India, stands out in that regard. Because women have been targeted with schemes like free meals. They've also been given subsidized scooters, mixers, bicycle for girls, gold coins for brides. This is the kind of welfare schemes where women have been rewarded for their ballot for the particular party that they are voting for. So in Goa, what you rightly said, was the first experiment with a direct transfer of cash for women. And it started with about $1,200 a month,

and that's about $13, and it was later raised to $1,500. But it was unconditional, and it was aimed at middle-to-low-income women to help them manage the rising cost of living. Crucially, it also included divorced women and widows. I mean, these are groups that are often marginalized, socially. And today, there are more than 100,000 women in Goa that receive this money and have grown now as the numbers that you talked about as most states have adopted this.

So Brabha, you've heard of this longstanding interest in the value of women's work. How do you see the unconditional cash transfers? Thank you. I think at the very least it signals a dramatic expansion of the Indian welfare state in favor of women. So of course, cash transfers are not new in India. as Divina has already mentioned, several conditional cash transfers, for instance, in the form of maternity benefits, for instance, in the form of cash transfers to girls so that they stay in secondary school and in higher education. So there are various ways in which you provide universal services, but you also provide a slight incentive to bring people in, girls in particular, into these welfare services. So in that sense, cash transfers are not new in India. What is new, and I think

dramatic is the fact that these cash transfers are given to women between the in the ages of adulthood. So from anywhere from 18 slash 21 to 60 slash 65. So this is past, you know, part of your childbearing years, but beyond that till you're elderly and with no strings attached. So this is what is most dramatic and innovative and it goes directly to the women. And do you think it was how would I say, a well-received potentially political tool, as Davina was outlying in one way there? Yes, I mean, definitely. I think some of these larger promises are brought in by politicians. So there is an electoral dimension to it. But then there are also structural changes that have occurred in the Indian context,

which have made the female voter as a game-changing sector of the population. So here we are talking about decentralization of political power, the ability of women to vote in local elections and be voted into local urban bodies and village bodies and so on. And we see a higher rate of registration by women voters, higher voter turnout. And apparently, according to experts in the past five years, more women are part of a voting constituency compared to men. So it's natural that political parties will want to have something that pleases women in their agendas. But not all states where these cash transfers are promised translate into electoral outcomes. And when we have talked to women after the elections, often we typically talk to them a year after these cash chances have been implemented. And they tell us, no, you know, we did not vote because of the cash chances.

They do seem to have a more nuanced understanding of the state at various levels, the national, the state and the local. Davina, there was some concern from feminists that it could, this cash transfer, discourage women from joining the workforce or indeed, as I was throwing out to my listeners, whether it might further entrench gender roles. What has happened, as you understand it? Well, unlike you say the skill or job-linked schemes,

this particular cash transfer is not designed to boost female workforce participation and that remains quite low in India. There are a lot of women who do not join the workforce or have to leave the workforce if they are into sort of an ambitious career part just because of this double duty of care at home and managing work and then there are societal norms that don't encourage that for many women. Now, this particular scheme of direct cash transfer is fundamentally a welfare program

as we've been talking about. So in Delhi, for example, a low-income woman, would get an equivalent of $10 a month. And on top of that, there's also free rice and wheat quotas given to such families. Now, it helps them to stretch their household budgets further, but there is no clear indication that if it incentivizes women to work or not to work. What it does is that it, I think, throws focus on how women are important for political parties, but it remains to be seen whether these political parties then can invest in,

things like fair pay or equal opportunities or something as simple as safe for public spaces and transport and strong childcare systems that can actually encourage them to work and leave their care responsibilities. Interesting. I mean, I'm also thinking, as you speak, DeVina, about marriage.

About that particular contract. Prabha, back to you. I mean, was there any reaction from men or did it affect marriage? Marriages coming together or perhaps when they were in them when cash transfers became part of the picture. Yeah, so we have to understand that, you know, 92% of women in India are married. And as Davina has already mentioned, the workforce participation rate for women is very low.

So therefore, in order to run a household, women need money. And for that, they have been traditionally reliant on their husbands. And the way they think about it is they assume marriage to be a labor contract or a transaction in a certain sense. they believe that they perform unpaid work for the household, and in exchange, the husband maintains them. So in comes the cash transfer. So we have a context in which women are heavily dependent on men, have to often haggle for, you know, cash to pay for the kids' school or, you know, tuition or for their own needs, or for their own food needs, for instance. But suddenly you have these cash transfers which are going directly to their bank account. And we have studied, we have

surveyed extensively about 6,000 women across five of these 12 states. And when we talk to them, you know, formally what they tell us is the daily levels of conflict have come down in their lives. They feel a sense of dignity and respect because they don't have to beg their husbands for these small amounts of money. So there is a subtle shift in the marital bargain because now it seems that the state is intervening in this relationship. And is there signs of backlash?

we also study this very rigorously. And of course, I think culturally men do think that there are a lot of schemes which are for the benefit of women, which they are not getting access to. For example, several states now have fair free travel for women in public buses. So there is some level of resentment against women and also the sense that maybe this is being funded by taxing, say, products that men consume like liquor, you see. So there is that equation, that cost. conversation is very much there in society. Do we know whether all the money promised

makes it into the hands of the women, Davina? Well, anecdotally, I can tell you that I was covering state elections in Bihar in November, which is the eastern state of India, one of the poorest states as well. And women turnout here has been traditionally high. So political parties often promise this kind of a cash transfer. And that time, the party that was in the state had also transferred or promised to transfer a $100 one-time payment to women over there. Now, when I spoke to a lot of women at different rallies, they said that while this money has been promised, they're yet to see it in their bank accounts. And a lot of times it's also because they don't have proper documents for it and then they don't have, say, an ID proof or they don't

apply for it or don't know how to apply for it. And that's why it's not always that this money sort of comes in. And I was reading a research from PRS legislative research, which is another think tank in India, which has shown concerns with the eastern state of India, Assam, and the central state, Chathisgar, saying they are the two states in which they have noticed the lowest amount, the lowest transfer to women. And it also ties in with the fiscal sustainability of the state. Do they have enough money to spend on these welfare schemes? Because these are states which themselves are struggling with the kind of revenue that is coming in and the kind of expenses they promise.

So there's always a deficit. And that's what impacts rolling out of these schemes. But that would have been a lot of money, $100, for example, compared to the usual payments that take place. That's right. But it was a one-time payment because if you calculate, say, $10 for 12 months, it's, again, $120. But this was a one-time payment that was promised just before the elections

and no surprises there. The party that promised it has actually one of course that are the factors but this is one of the reasons they're citing for their winning. Back to you, Prabha. You have to have a bank account, I imagine,

to get the cash transfer. Yes. I don't know how difficult that might be in certain rural communities. But I'm also wondering what difference it makes to women's financial literacy. Yeah, so actually it's very interesting

since 2017, there's been a huge rollout of, you know, No Frills bank accounts. These are very basic bank accounts that have been open in the names of women. So, you know, when we went out into the field a year after these cash transfers had been implemented, that's when we begin to assess the impact of the schemes. We actually found that, you know, 97 to 98% of the women already had bank accounts. And the beauty of the cash transfers is that the money, and we also have the digital infrastructure. Now, there are always women who are excluded.

But we have to understand these cash transfer schemes because of the political motivation of the powers that they involve the entire bureaucracy in mission mode to implement these cash transfers. So you have the full weight of the state in implementing them. So there are women who are excluded, who are destitute, who are elderly, who are single, who have eloped and so on. But many of the women that we met almost universally had a bank account already, also had a unique identification number, which is essential for this. and quite a substantial number of them, about two-thirds, already had a phone. So with the Trinity of the phone, the bank account and the unique identification number, we found that these women were able to get the money without any political intermediation into their accounts. Really interesting to think about.

There is a write-up also online. I want to thank Davina Gupta, a reporter based in Delhi, and also Professor Prabha Koti-Schwaran for joining. us from King's College, London. A message coming in. My 13-year-old daughter has attended a photography program in London. I talked about youth clubs. She learned to visually express herself alongside a creative and mixed group of young people. It brought herself confidence and space for curiosity.

It's not a youth club. Okay, not exactly. But the people who run it are exceptionally skilled in working with a wide variety of teenagers. The point is youth work and provision can come in many forms. It should be reliant on charity. It should, I think, should not be reliant on charity, but a course service. So thank you very much for that message coming in, 84844, if you would like to get in touch. And I want to talk about support for parents.

If you have not done so already, I recommend checking out the latest episode of CBB's parenting download. The podcast unpacks the stories that have got parents talking from viral trends and dilemmas to the news stories lighting up the group chats. This week, Katie Thistleton and Governor B explore children's Christmas overwe. with tips on how to embrace the magic without the meltdowns. Now, joining them in that conversation is comedian and father of three, George Lewis. I remember in those early years, feeling a lot of pressure to do loads of Christmas stuff, not just for us, but for the rest of the family,

and we'd try and go to as many events with different people as possible, and we'd try and have people round all the time. And I do remember once with our son, like we'd had like a family thing, so we'd invited loads of family around, and my son was just like stood in the garden the whole time. He just stood at the end of the garden, didn't want to be there, didn't want to talk to anyone and just didn't, and I just remember at that time thinking, if this isn't for him, then who's it for?

Since then, what we always try and do is just take away any of that stress. And everyone understands if we say, listen, that's going to be a bit much for the kids. It took a while to get to that. But I think now we've kind of, we've constructed a Christmas, which is a, as stress-free as possible, as predictable for the kids as it can be. And I think they enjoy it more because of that. You can listen to that episode in full on BBC Sounds or watch it on IPlayer. Just search CBB's Parenting Download.

And don't forget to subscribe. Also on wages for housework. Why not mention the fact that if women are at home doing housework, they're also there with their children. It would be an incredibly helpful step forward, which I've been advocating for years. Women who choose to be at home with their preschool-aged children should definitely, definitely be paid

instead of going out to work. Nothing better for children's precious early years than to have their own mothers taking care of them instead of leaving them in expensive nurseries with strangers. If you want to respond to that, 8-4-8-44. Now, I need to turn to a difficult story next. John Smythe is believed to be the most prolific serial abuser associated with the Church of England.

In 2024, an independent review carried out by Keith Macon found that Smyth abused 30 boys and young men in the UK and around 85 in Zimbabwe and South Africa. They found his abuse was prolific, brutal, horrific and his victims were subjected to traumatic, physical, sexual, psychological and spiritual attacks. There is a new Channel 4 documentary called See No Evil and it reveals the scale of Smyth's abuse and features testimony from victims and survivors. the journalist who uncovered this story and from Smide's family, one of whom is here with me. Fiona Rugg is John Smide's daughter and joins me in studio. Good morning

and thank you for coming in. Thank you for having me. I know this documentary is the first time that you've spoken so publicly and at length about your father and your experience. And as I was watching it, I was wondering, why now?

I think there are probably several parts to the answer. One is that it's a public story, whether I like it or not, it's out there. And there's an element of wanting to speak into the situation rather than hide from it. And it was happening with or without us. So being a part of the documentary as a contributor felt like a better position to be in, to speak into it, as I said, rather than an outlook, an outsider. And how do you feel about it going out now?

Where is your head out? It's quite difficult. It feels exposing and vulnerable, although, as I said, it's a public story, so it is what it is. But I think they've done a great job. The documentary's very well made. It's insightful for me, even though I was familiar with the facts to hear the story from the victims who speak so bravely and brilliantly on the documentary. And it's a difficult but I think necessary watch. I will bring a little of one of the victims, Andy Morris, in just a moment from the documentary. It is compelling. It is horrifying at the same

time. But you know, I was very struck. You talked about something didn't feel right at home when you were young in relation to your father. Can you expand on that a little bit? it's easier to put words to it in retrospect obviously because as a child you don't know what's going on but the way I would describe it is that I've said it before in other clips there is this the sense that I had of always being afraid and I think it almost is as simple as fear and love just not being able to coexist so you feel you know I felt yeah constantly afraid of dad and so you do feel this tension as a child that you know you should love him and you want to love him and you know you should feel an affection towards your own father and the tension arises because

you don't so there's this sort of unresolved peace inside which i think indicates that there's something wrong and was what i was feeling but at the same time it's an it's a sort of instinctive feeling as a child you can't put words to it you can't understand it and as your brother also Pete or Pete John described as well. He talked about just knowing that he didn't want to be alone with your father but not totally understanding why because he did have a close relationship with him in many other respects. I want to come back to the victims again Fiona and I want to warn our listeners that the following is disturbing because the stories of abuse where victims have come forward.

As I mentioned, it's horrifying. In the UK for those that don't remember the story specifically, Smide took boys and young men to his home near Winchester in Hampshire and he carried out beatings lashing with a garden cane in his shed. There are accounts of some of them being so badly beaten

that they bled after receiving thousands of lashes. This is a clip from the documentary this is Andy Morse talking about the impact of John Smide's abuse which continued through to his years in university and he gives a toll he gives a picture of the toll it took

on his mental health and as I mentioned it's a difficult listen In January in 1982 my mental health was really struggling the anxiety was terrible it was like a ticking clock

ticking down to the next beating and I only really achieved mental calm when I was being beaten which sounds strange but when I was being beaten I was the furthest away from the next time I was going to be beaten. And I was in an oasis.

Andy Morse there explaining how shattering the abuse was on his life. He is your godfather. He is, yeah. He was very much part of your family really growing up, which the documentary goes into. But I'm wondering when you first heard accounts of the abuse that your father was responsible for. I heard them at the same time as everybody else on the 2017 Channel 4 News Expoise that Cathy Newman led.

Which one I was thinking about is almost eight years ago now. I hadn't realised kind of that much time had passed. Of course, many things have changed with reviews, etc. And also the Archbishop of Canterbury stepping down. Have you been in contact with any of your father's victims? well actually the one of the very lovely parts to come out of the documentary and you know which was difficult to be part of but this has been such a highlight as getting to know andy a tiny bit and we've met and met up a couple of times and reconnected i hadn't seen him since well i couldn't

remember the last time i saw him because i was certainly under the age of five so it's been really just a very meaningful and special connection to re-engage with him and meet him as my godfather all these years later. He does seem like a gentle and lovely man and is a big part of the documentary and he was your godfather even though he was a very young man but maybe even a boy when he became godfather to you

if people are wondering about the timeline there. How would you? you describe how it affected your family? That's a big question to answer and a complex thing to cover. But I think a couple of things that spring to mind are the shame by association is a big thing. It's just, you know in your head that you're not responsible for what your father or family member has done but when the extent of his abuse came to light it's so hard not to feel

guilty and ashamed and like you want to hide away from that association and of course I didn't have his name so in a way had the luxury of doing that but that does bring with it its own difficulties because of feeling inauthentic or feeling like you're hiding this guilty thing and shame is a slippery emotion because you you can't talk your way out of it You know, it's not reasonable. You know you're not responsible, but you feel ashamed anyway. And I think that's been a big thing for all of the family members. Are you able to say how you feel about your dad now?

He died a number of years ago before facing justice. You know, I feel, I no longer feel like a knot of anger when I think about him. And I've come a long way with that. So I feel at peace, I suppose. but I feel sad, you know, about the way it ended and that he didn't ever take the chance to try and make amends or reconcile or face what he did. So I feel sad about that and I feel sorry that he died in that state

because I know that it would have been healing for the victims to have had him face what he did and speak into it. Because you did also investigate, as we see in the documentary, about what he possibly had done. Did you ever confront him? I did. Yes, that's something I did in my early 20s. Of course, I had no idea about the extent of what he had done.

None at all. But I confronted him as to why I wanted to just have an honest conversation with him about why he'd left the UK all those years ago. And I didn't feel we'd ever had that. But when I did confront him, I was just met with sort of furious anger and how dare you question me and disloyalty, all those sorts of lines.

So that put an end to the conversation, but it also made me think that I was perhaps more suspicious than I had been going into the conversation because there was such an extraordinary response. That you were almost onto something and it's interesting the disloyalty because that's very much a theme

and that's kind of how he kept people in line as well as a terrifying figure. and in the documentary you and your brother you have another sister as well Caroline with you and your brother talked to your mum about what your father did because your mother did was with him until the day he died

and wanted to know how much she knew your mother speaks on camera she said I suppose that she had a kind of protection that as a kind of protection one's memory blocks things out like you're anesthetized but all anesthetic or anesthesia has to wear off

and it does wear off as she comes to that realisation. And I wonder how you feel about your mum then or now? I have a great amount of love for mum and real compassion. I think I and actually others in the family, we do see her as because she was closest to dad, perhaps victim number one, you know, and the first person that he really did coerce and control. and that was very clear. She met him very young, right? Was she 16?

Yeah, she met him when she was 16. She's such a sweet, loving, kind person. And I think we could easily see just how controlled she was over the years. And I could never hold it against her that, you know, it takes time for all of us to come to terms with what dad did. I don't hold it against her. I wouldn't hold it against her if she had, you know, died not coming to terms of this. It's a very difficult and painful. thing to talk about and to face. And that's just the same for her as it is for all of us.

So I'd also say, actually, I'm really proud of her for how she participated in this conversation. I was shocked because an elderly lady sat down and at first we don't know who she is within the documentary and then when the lower third or the Aston comes up describing who she was because I've been following the story for a number of years. Did you talk to her? about taking part, if that's okay to ask? Yeah, we all talked about taking part, yeah, yeah. We obviously have family conversations about this because it was a big thing.

And you and your brother and your mother take part. Your other sister does not. She takes part in the documentary. In the documentary, but not in the part sitting down at the end, perhaps with your mother. It must be difficult as this story is in nationally and internationally, as you talked about. watching it unfold. But I'm wondering where you want to go from here. Well, that's a good question.

My brother and I hope to do some good out of, on the back of this. We're in the process of creating a charity called Survivor to Survivor, which will be primarily to raise awareness and funds for charities that are already doing amazing things for adult survivors of childhood trauma, of which there are many. So there are people doing such great things and to champion them and to bring awareness to the fact that there is help out there

for people who've suffered childhood trauma and it's available and it's fantastic. I mean it's been a huge part of our journey as a family healing from this which is ongoing, excuse me. But yeah, just that sense of encouraging others to access the help that's out there. And you can heal from it?

I believe so. Yeah. If you would like, or if you were to speak to the victims, and I know you have a relationship with Andy Morris, as you mentioned, what is it that you want them to know? Many things, too many to say here, but I think that they are brave and courageous, and I'm just so sorry for what they have been through.

It's unimaginable. and my heart really just breaks for them and actually you know as you can imagine I'm familiar with the facts but watching the first part of the documentary you know it hits you every time it's incredibly painful but at the same time as being horrified

at what was done to them you have this just amazing respect and admiration for them particularly the ones who speak out but all of them who are facing it and trying to move through it and on from it Fiona Rugg is John Smyth's daughter. I want to read a message that just came in. It says, what an incredibly brave woman, Fiona,

to talk about her dad's abuses. I can't imagine the pain she's in. She deserves all our compassion and love. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming in and for speaking to us. I want to continue with this story and speak to Madeline Davies, who's the senior writer at the Church Times,

who's also followed this story closely. Good to have you with us. You've watched the documentary. I believe you were also speaking to a survival I'd just like your thoughts on basically what you've seen and heard so far. Yes, I think what was very striking about the documentary was obviously the interviews with people that we haven't heard from before, particularly Anne Smythe, whose involvement in the abuse is covered in some detail in the Making Review,

which was the Church of England's Commission Review into the abuse, which explored the fact that she had known about the beatings, that she had provided nappies and ointment to boys after they were beaten, which I think naturally left questions about what she had known in her own sort of culpability. So I think it would be very interesting for people to hear directly from her for the first time

about what she knew and what she did or didn't do. And of course the larger context here is the Church of England. I mentioned Archbishop, Justin Welby, who then Archbishop, I should say, who stepped down following this scandal that the report found that he did not do enough in the context of this. What has the Church of England's response been to the Smide story as you see at Madeline? So the major response was commissioning this very lengthy review of what had happened, which ended up taking many years and apparently a million pounds to complete.

And as we all know, when it was eventually published, it led to the resignation of the Archbishop. It's also led to several members of the Church of England's clergy being referred to a disciplinary procedure under which their alleged failings to respond to disclosures of abuse will be considered and whether they should be subject to church discipline. The survivor I spoke to yesterday made the point that almost 14 years after he came forward as a survivor, his feeling is that absolutely nobody has been held to account by the church. nobody has been subject to discipline. Well, let's talk about that. Church discipline as opposed to legal proceedings? Yes, so the two tend to happen in parallel. Obviously, people can be referred to the police

if it's felt that what they did was in any way criminal. Separally to that, the church has its own procedures for considering whether clergy have broken church laws in their behaviour. so yes, it might not meet the threshold of a crime, but did, for example, their behaviour bring the clergy into disrepute? Was it the word would be sort of unbecoming for a cleric, for example, not to respond to a safeguarding disclosure appropriately? So even if something fails to meet the CPS threshold,

the church still has ways of dealing with clergy. I understand. I do also very much want to mention that this is a story that didn't just happen in the UK. At the beginning, I mentioned about 30 boys in young men in the UK, but at least 85 in Zimbabwe and South Africa. Have you got an idea of what's happening in either of those countries? Yes, so the Church of South Africa,

which is where Smyth and his family ended up and where he died, they released a report earlier this year, which admitted that they had not gone enough to stop him. So there were various attempts in England to alert people in Zimbabwe and into South Africa that he had moved there that he had this record of abuse that he was not a safe person

and both the Macon Review and the South African Review have found that not enough was done to stop him. And the victims that you've spoken to you mentioned that they do feel there hasn't been enough movement on certain aspects of it but the resignation of Justin Welby, for example, did that give any sense of peace? I mean, I should probably sort of stress that I've spoken to one survivor in particular,

and I think one of the complexities of the Smythe case has been that the survivors and victims are quite a diverse group, and they've had very different reactions and feel quite differently about their identity. So some would see themselves, would be happy to be sort of described as a survivor, others wouldn't. I know that Survivor I've spoken to you in particular doesn't feel any sense of closure after Justin Welby's resignation because he felt that Justin Welby did not handle his communications with Survivors well. He described having a meeting where Justin Welby had never referred to him by name, where he was late and then left early. So basically holds a very low view of his response and feels that the church did not deal compassionately with Smythe survivors. Adela Davies is senior writer at the Church Times. Thank you very much for joining us.

And I should say as well, if you have been affected by any of the issues we've been talking about this morning, there will be links to support on the BBC Action Line website. I also want to read some of the responses. The Church of England, a spokesperson said the horrific abuse perpetrated by John Smy. This had a lifelong effect on the survivors and support. has been and continues to be offered, including in light of this week's documentary. As we said at the time of publication of the lessons learned by the keep making into the church's handling of the case, we are profoundly sorry for the ways in which the church failed to protect children and vulnerable adults

and for the lasting impact of those failures. On the anniversary last month of the publication of the review, an update on the ongoing progress of the church's response to the recommendations was also published. Justin Welby spoke to the BBC's Laura Kuhnsberg, in March this year. And he said there had to be absolute failure on, there had been an absolute failure on John Smyth. When asked why he did not do more while in office,

Welby said that the police told him, under no circumstances are you to get involved because you will contaminate our inquiry. He also added, I should have pestered them, to be honest, and I see that now. Wellby has always insisted that he did not become aware of any abuse allegations against Mide until 2013. Let me turn next to something completely different, to Van Life. I want to take you back to an interview with Chavonne Daniels.

Do you remember this? Back in 2024, Chauvonne got in touch with us on Instagram about her alternative way of living. Chauvin sold her home and most of her possessions to do something that might appeal to you. She decided to live in a van, a motorhome, to be exact, at the age of 60. And it's been travelling around the UK for five years. She joined us from her van, Dora the Explorer, and I began asking her why she decided to live in such a confined space. One day I had an incident at work, and I remember going into the toilet and just looking in the mirror and sobbing to myself thinking,

I want to stop pretending. I want to find me. I want to find my happy place. I know it sounds melodramatic, but that's genuinely how I felt. And so then I just started trying to figure out a way of doing it, And eventually I came up with the idea of a motorhome. But where did that come from and what we do? I don't know, scrolling used cars and went, oh, you know what, I'm going to live in a van.

No, I really don't know. I had all these ideas on my head and motorhome wasn't there. And I literally woke up one morning and I thought motorhome and it was like a eureka moment. And I'd never holidayed in one, never driven one. I hadn't got a clue. But I remember going into work and saying to everybody, that's it. I'm going to get rid of my home, my possessions. I'm going to buy a motorhome, I'm going to hit the road and find a happy place.

And that is a big leap, though, because at first I would have thought that you would have kept flat or wherever you were living, rent that out and then maybe do your thing in the van. But why did you feel you needed to go the whole hog? I think also I felt in society we were working long hours to earn lots of money to clutter our lives, fill our lives with stuff I had. My flat was full of beautiful things. and on the surface it looked great but I was so, so unhappy and just really going through the motions just existing to pay bills for all this stuff

so I kind of thought with my crazy mind if I get rid of it all and I'm not worried about spending on all this rubbish then I can focus on finding my happy place but let's talk about the good, the bad and the ugly okay the good what the upsides I imagine it's that freedom it's being mistress of your own destiny

And I through this, I found my voice and my inner warrior and I'm more courageous about exploring places. So I'll go to parts of the country that I really don't know. I went up to the Outer Hebrides at the end of last year and spent five weeks just going from Ireland to Island. And it was just heaven. And I went to Ireland itself and traveled around Southern Ireland for five weeks and spoke to the locals and found places.

So I found my courage and I found my sense of adventure. And I found me. I really, really, I'm living. When I was before with all the trappings, I was existing. I wasn't living like many of us do. Now, I literally stop and I have my cup of coffee and I sit on the doorstep of the motorhome and I listen to the birds and I feel the wind on my face. Things my mum used to say to me and I'd roll my eyes thinking, you know, for goodness sake.

But I'm doing it now and I feel the benefits of it. I go and walk in bare feet on the grass. On the grass, Yvonne Daniel, 16. 16th of August 2024 if you want to listen to that full episode. Now, I need to let you know on Tuesday, Radio 4 is going to devote the day celebrating the 250th anniversary of the birth of one of Britain's best-loved women writers. Who is it? Jane Austen, of course. Woman's Hour is kicking off proceedings with a programme about the world.

Jane Austen and her character is inhabited and the impact she's had in our lives. We want to hear from you. What does she mean to you? What are the books? What are your favourites? 84844 is the way to get in touch. Talk to you tomorrow. That's all for today's

Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Nula Mcarverin and I want to tell you about a BBC podcast called Send in the Spotlight. The number of children with special educational needs

is increasing. Too many parents are having to fight to get those needs met and councils are spending money that they do not have. Against a backdrop of government reform I bring together families, teachers, experts and decision makers

to reimagine the system. Listen to Send in the Spotlight on BBC Sounds.