Woman's Hour - Accusations against Lizzo, Power Lister Jodie Ounsley, Concepts of renaissance beauty, Loneliness, Rock Follies musical

Episode Date: August 2, 2023

The singer Lizzo, and her production company, are being sued by three former dancers. They have been accused of sexual and racial harassment, disability discrimination, false imprisonment and creating a hostile work environment. Tom Murray, Senior Culture Reporter for the Independent, tells Nuala exactly what’s in the lawsuit. Rock Follies was a 1970s TV series about an all-female rock band, The Little Ladies, trying to make their mark on a male-dominated music industry. A new musical adapted from the TV series is currently on in Chichester. Nuala is joined by Rula Lenska who played Q in the original TV series and Zizi Strallen who has taken on the stage role.Jodie Ounsley is the world’s first ever deaf female rugby sevens international player, and she was part of the Woman’s Hour Power List of women in sport. She also uses TikTok to show others what it’s like to live with hearing loss. She joins Nuala to talk about being on the Power List, as well as being one of the brand new Gladiators.All this week we’re looking at loneliness, and today we’re asking: what impact does it have on society at large? To discuss Nuala is joined by Noreena Hertz, an economist and author of The Lonely Century, where she explores how increasing isolation has consequences for our economy and our democracy. Would you use fig and pine nut hand scrub? Or perhaps some tree gum anti-wrinkle cream? Just a few of the 16th century beauty recipes Professor Jill Burke has included in her new book How to be a Renaissance Woman. Jill joins Nuala to talk about sixteenth-century women’s body anxieties and the men who wrote them beauty tips.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Well, Lizzo's name is trending this morning, as you've just been hearing in the news bulletin. The pop superstar is facing allegations from three of her former dancers over claims that include sexual harassment and a hostile work environment. We're going to talk about the allegations of the lawsuit that have shocked her millions of fans. There has been, as we heard, no response from Lizzo or her team yet. Also today on Woman's Hour, we continue our series on loneliness. Today we're going to

look at its impact on the economy and even democracy. And in the Woman's Hour studio, we will have Rula Lenska. You might remember Rula played Q in the 70s TV series Rock Follies. That was all about an all-female rock band in a man's world. Well, the show is revived at the Minerva Theatre in Chichester. Rula will be chatting with Zizi Strallin,

who is playing Q this time round. And the Lionesses. What about that yesterday? They are going from strength to strength. The match against China yesterday saw Lauren James shine and take centre stage, scoring two of England's six goals, also three assists. Afterwards, she was asked how she felt the game had gone.

I went for. I thought, yeah, just happy to obviously get on the score sheet and most importantly the team won and with everyone getting six goals it just shows the talent we have

in the squad and hopefully we can take that into the next round. Eventful, says Lauren James there. Well, we'd like to hear from you

about an eventful moment you have had. When have you pulled it out of the bag and been on the top of your game? Well, we'd like to hear from you about an eventful moment you have had. When have you pulled it out of the bag and been on the top of your game? You can text the programme. The number is 84844 as we celebrate you. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website.

For WhatsApp or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. And speaking of celebrating, we continue to celebrate women on the Women's Hour Power List. Women in sport today. Deaf rugby player Jodie Owensley will be with us. And how to be a Renaissance woman. Professor Jill Burke will be here to tell you what snails, goat fat and veal marrow could do for your face, among many other remedies. But let me begin with the singer Lizzo. She and her production company are being sued by three former dancers.

They've been accused of sexual and racial harassment, disability discrimination, false imprisonment and creating a hostile work environment. Tom Murray is the senior culture reporter for The Independent, who's based in L.A. and has read through the whole lawsuit. I asked him about the accusations that became public last night. We have three of Lizzo's former backing dancers who have filed this long 44-page lawsuit against Lizzo, her dance captain and against her touring company. So among those accusations, Lizzo herself has been accused of sexual harassment and fostering a hostile work environment.

And there are nine complaints in total, which comprise the other two defendants, the dance captain and the touring company. And among those complaints and in that kind of long document are a number of pretty kind of alarming anecdotes. For example? So I think the one that stood out to me with the most was a story about a trip to an Amsterdam strip club earlier this year. The lawsuit alleges that Lizzo kind of hounded her employees to engage with these nude performers against their wishes. There's some pretty shocking stuff in there.

So the three people that have brought this lawsuit, who are they exactly? They're former dancers who have performed with Lizzo at her various live concerts around the world. And two of them were actually discovered on Lizzo's reality show. And another of them was hired after performing in one of Lizzo's reality show. And another of them was hired after performing in one of Lizzo's music videos. Because her reality show was all about bringing on board new dancers. It's watch out for the big girls. And it very much, and Lizzo has, advocated for body positivity,

particularly for black women. How significant do you think this lawsuit is? Well, I think that's why it's been so shocking for the people reacting to it today, is that Lizzo has built up this kind of big reputation as someone who's very empowering, someone who promotes body positivity, who is very pro-women's rights, pro-LGBT rights, anti-bullying.

And these accusations just kind of fly in the face of that. Now, we've not heard from her yet, of course, and that is kind of the next big thing will be to see how she responds to this. And these are accusations. These are allegations. I want to very much underline that. And there is no evidence of guilt yet. And with that, Tom, if in fact there is no evidence of guilt if they go forward,

does that still damage her brand? It's something she's worked so hard on, particularly over the past few years. Her star is high and some would say she's on top of her game. Yeah, I think it would be hard not to. It's one of those stories at the moment that's very prevalent in Hollywood

about how these accusations can damage stars' repututations and when you have three plaintiffs like this who have worked with a performer for a significant amount of time bringing forward multiple allegations in quite a long lawsuit then it's quite difficult for the fans to kind of measure that against the performer that they know and certainly I've seen on social media already a couple of other people who have worked with Lizzo in the past have come forward applauding these three plaintiffs for their bravery in coming forward with their allegations and saying that they had similar experiences with Lizzo. She has millions of followers online. She's very much a social media star. Is there any way to gauge the reaction? why Lizzo and I think people are really gutted about that because she was seen in such positive light and was such a kind of bastion for really important messages like body positivity and

among the claims is that she has fat shamed one of her performers and I think for the fans of her that will be really gutting to see that she is alleged to have been hypocritical in this manner. Tom Murray there in Los Angeles. And I should stress, these are allegations Lizzo and others who are accused have been approached for comment. The singer has not yet responded publicly to the allegations made in the case, which remain to be tested in court. Now, let me turn to my next guest. She was on our Woman's Hour Power List in the sportswoman category. Jodie Ansley is a professional rugby player currently playing for the England Sevens team and the Exeter Chiefs.

She is also deaf and has created a TikTok account where she shares her life living as a woman with hearing loss. And those videos, they've been liked nearly five million times. She's also honorary president of UK Deaf Sport, the first ever deaf female rugby sevens international player and has competed in the Deaf Olympics and awarded Young Deaf Sports Personality of the Year. Jodie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thanks for having me. What a list I have just read through. I'm wondering, how does it feel to add that other title to your name

to be on the Woman's Hour Power List? To be honest I was like baffled I was like I was so chuffed I was just really grateful to be recognised in that way because I've seen I've looked up to a lot of the women who was on that list so to be a part of that was pretty pretty cool. And we are speaking to one another now over Zoom so you are lip- reading what I'm saying somewhat. Yeah, yeah, because obviously that's how I mainly communicate. Obviously, it's different for everyone. But I'm lip reading and you seem pretty easy to understand. Bit gobby. So tell me a little bit, though, about that as you go through life day to day, because I'm thinking that you might not always have people face on to you to be able to communicate in that way.

What's it like? Yeah, I mean, like on a daily basis, people, sometimes people just who don't know me don't even know I'm deaf or even most of my friends forget that I'm deaf. I think it's because I just get on because I just get on so well with it. People just forget that I'm constantly lip reading. So it is more down to me to, you know, remind people or, you know, just be honest with people and just try and make people more aware. Obviously, in my way, it's like making jokes.

I'm so bad for making jokes all the time but it you know it breaks the ice with people people like feel comfortable to ask me questions then so that's kind of my way to get around it just being open with people and making the odd jokes and that and I thought that was interesting on one of your TikTok videos that you're very much pushing people to ask those questions what was it you said that you're not going to bite them yeah literally but the thing is like I said people just seem very nervous or scared of saying the wrong thing or can you ask that can you ask certain questions but I'm literally like don't be afraid just ask me and I'll answer it honestly um so yeah that's I'm just trying to break down the stigma I suppose around around the topic.

So that is one aspect that we're talking to you about today. But you are on our women in sport list. You're incredibly successful. Rugby, as I mentioned. But you started doing athletics, then Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Where did that come from? Well Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu came from my dad because he's come from a fighting background so he came from MMA so mixed martial arts and then he went into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu so a lot of our like Saturday nights was fighting in the garage having a fight in the garage and then just in time before Britain's Got Talent and then

we had our like sort of our chicken nuggets on a Saturday night as well it's just typical um but I actually started before I got into athletics I started with the World Coal Carrying Championships so it's a very Yorkshire event um but you basically run a mile with a sack of coal on your shoulders and it's it's like from the pub and it's the first one to the mayor poll but I'm I'm telling you it's such a big event now and it's been going on for like over like 40 50 years or something like that now Jodie I thought I had misunderstood you but I didn't I heard you correctly oh you didn you didn't. But yeah, like it just gets bigger every year as well. So I started when I was three years old.

And I remember lying, like my parents said, I lied about my age, obviously, because you had to be like five years old to get in the races. And then I literally did it every year. But obviously I had to stop when I got into professional sport. But I still go every year to watch it anyway. You see when I got into professional sport, but I still go every year to watch it anyway. You see, this is appealing to me, Jodie. I carry coal and I eat chicken nuggets and I can be a superstar, sports superstar like you. It's balance. Let me continue because you are part of the deaf community, but I'm wondering how has that been to be within the sports world

is there enough recognition and I'm thinking of like you know maybe a young girl who is deaf now but would love to have a career like yours yeah like obviously the deaf community there's so many different sports and that's purely like deaf sports the deaf olympics but obviously going into professional sport it's been mainstream so at the minute like i'm the only deaf female rugby player to represent england sevens which yeah that's amazing for me but i don't want to be the first person i'd love for other people to feel like they can do the same so i feel like we still have got a long way to go, but I think that's why I'm so passionate of trying to do my best

to get it out there and just raise that awareness along the way. What do you think stands in the way? It's just simple barriers and mostly just a lack of awareness, I suppose. People, if you haven't met a deaf person before, never mind in a professional sporting world you just you're just not gonna you know be aware of that so I think it's just having that awareness me trying to educate people and the more people have that awareness the more people can deaf people can sort of mix into that environment so yeah it's just little steps so you're raising

awareness I mentioned your TikTok I'm curious what reaction you've got to it. What to my TikTok to me? Well, at the start, I'm not going to lie, in lockdown, I didn't have TikTok. I thought it was just all about dancing. I thought I'm staying away from that app because I can't dance. And then when I actually downloaded it, I saw people, you know, trying to educate people in different ways.

And I thought, oh, maybe I could do that with my deafness and just say, oh, this is what happens if I take my cochlear implant off. And instantly the reaction I got was it was pretty, it took me aback because it was like, you know, teachers, coaches, parents of deaf children, just all asking questions. And it was just really sort of heartwarming to see that. And then that just gave me the confidence to carry on doing it so you can't dance I found something you can't do no I can't dance honestly I'm shocking you know that might be worth its own TikTok video

but that's for another time you know you mentioned the cochlear implant there, Jodie. And that can be a controversial issue within deaf communities. Yeah, it's obviously, it's just everyone has different opinions. It's just, it depends how you've been brought up, your level of deafness. But obviously it was my parents' choice

because I was a baby at the time and I respect their choice. But obviously it just depends how you've been brought up. How would you describe for people that are coming to this fresh what what is the argument or the debate perhaps? I think it's just more of the case of if you're deaf it's nice to stay within the deaf community you know sign language as your first language if you want to go to a deaf school and just being really in that community but But for me, I went to mainstream school.

I had a cochlear implant. So I got told to focus more on my speech therapy and my language rather than sign language. So I only know little bits of sign language because I've learned that as I've got older. So it's kind of just the community side of things, really. But do you feel that you straddle both now weirdly I think I'm kind of in the middle I'm mostly like my sporting background I'm all in the mainstream world and I'm like the only deaf person but then I'm also part of the deaf community because I obviously growing up I went to the deaf

olympics and I've got loads of friends in the deaf community so I almost feel like I'm stuck in the middle but I'm just really trying my hardest to sort of manage both and you know keep everyone happy yeah interesting really interesting um you know we're talking about Lauren James pulling it out of the bag yesterday uh I'd be curious, is there a moment that comes to your mind of when you pulled it out of the bag? In what way? In like sporting? Yeah, it can be any way.

Probably, I'm going to say sporting perhaps in yours. A moment that comes to you. I don't know. I'd probably just say, well, obviously, I think my newest one I've maybe pulled out of the bag is obviously being a new gladiator. I know. So maybe that's the way I've started pulling it out of the bag. I don't know. Let's talk about gladiators, because I think some of my listeners may not be familiar with it.

I grew up with it, you know, and that was, you know, you talk about your jujitsu and your chicken nuggets on a weekend night. We had gladiators on the telly. You are going to be Fury. Tell me about Fury and what can we expect? Well, obviously Fury right now, you probably don't really think I'm that furious but it's amazing because Fury has two personalities one personality is how I am now I'm very like warm to people I'm a big hugger I love hyping people up but as soon as I get into that arena Fury is not there to make friends she's there to do damage she's there to do damage. She's there to do business. And yeah, she's pretty savage. But as soon as that whistle goes,

you get a hug afterwards. So it's pretty much me in terms of on and off the rugby field. So it's perfect, really. I can't wait to see you in it as the BBC are rebooting the whole Gladiators. I think it's going to be great. But, you know,

I was talking about the football there, particularly the match yesterday. what about women's rugby do you feel it's getting the love in the way perhaps that women's football has been getting for for a number of years now i mean obviously women's football has really taken off but even just in the last two or three years women's rugby is really like taking off and like with the World Cup, the Premier 15s, everything. It's just, it's causing so much attraction. Obviously, we've still got a long way,

but it's definitely on the right path. And it's just real exciting to see. Even in my career from being 18, it's drastically like being amazing. So it's exciting to think about the future. Jodie, it's wonderful to have you on Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. Congratulations on being part of the Woman's Hour

power list of women in sport. You can catch Jodie as Fury, the gladiator on BBC One that's coming out later this year. And of course, if you want to check out our other power listers, you just head to the BBC Women's Hour website. Now, Listener Week. I want to tell you about that. It is starting on the 21st of August. And if you have a powerful personal story that you'd like to tell, this is the time to get in touch. So we have, if you're a regular listener, you'll know lots of powerful stories

over the years from the listener who discovered her absent father was a priest to Freya last year who spoke about having anorexia and being sectioned

and coming out on the other side so whether it's about overcoming adversity maybe breaking glass ceilings discovering family secrets reinventing yourself let us know

to let us know you can text us 84844 or you can get in touch on social media that is at BBC Woman's Hour

or another way to do it indeed is to email us through our website I'm looking forward to hearing your stories but now before the Spice Girls

before the Sugar Babes before the Saturdays came along it was the 1970s let's go back there. Feminism is on the rise. And there was a television series called Rock Follies. It was about three women fed up

with the male-dominated entertainment industry. And it told the story of Anna, Dee and Q, who took the future into their own hands and formed a rock band, ironically named The Little Ladies. The show was unusual. It portrayed these strong female central characters and it had an overtly feminist message. And there is now a new musical adapted from that series

that is currently at the Chichester Festival Theatre, at the Minerva Theatre. And I'm joined in studio by Rúla Lenska, who played the character Q in the original series. Good morning. Good morning, Rula. Wonderful to have you. And Zizi Strallin, who has taken on the stage role of Q.

Good morning. Hi, morning. So great to have both of you in. I saw it last week. I loved it. I'm in awe of how you managed to perform in that way. It's really like being a rock star and an actor and a musician and everything in between, all on stage for a number of hours.

Rula, what are your memories of the series? When I say rock follies, what comes to mind? Well, it was completely life-changing for me. I mean, the big difference between us and the new Little Ladies is that they are all bona fide fantastic singers. Whereas in our series, Julie was the only one that was a trained, professional, magical singer. And the rest of us have to sort of bumble along as harmony queens. First of all, I'd just like to say, Zizi, how sad I am. I thought we were going to be in the studio together and I was going to be able to give you a big hug

and a message to the rest of the cast. I know, I'm in Chichester. This is difficult, right, to get up and your job had to come first. And you're also up, I suppose, she's up relatively early for us, considering it's quite kind of a late evening, isn't it? A fairly full performance. A fairly full performance. Oh, it's unbelievable. I mean, I went with a certain amount of trepidation as well as enormous excitement.

I went with Howard Schumann, the writer, and Andy Mackay, the writer of all the music. And I was blown away. I mean, I couldn't stop myself from joining in with every single number. The buzz was tremendous. It's not just theatre. It's a happening. And the way, you know, this was 40 years ago. So now being an old lady looking back at those times, how avant-garde it was, how terribly brave for some of the subject matters that it went into.

It was extraordinary, unique, adored instantly, and became an iconic show which was sadly never repeated. So I'm hoping that on the back of this wonderful stage version that they will re-release the teleseries. What about that, Zizi? Number one, what about having Rula in the audience? Did you know? You must have known. I did know, yeah, and I was very happy about that

because I think, I mean, it was an amazing surprise. I found out on the night, but before the show, thankfully, and I actually spotted her straight away because obviously the Minerva Theatre is quite an intimate theatre, so you can see a lot of the audience so I thought oh there she is. Rula has presence let me tell you I'm just in the studio with her now and you know when she has arrived as well but what about that how did you decide how to play Q? I mean were you familiar with the Rock Follies before Hans Easy because the other

work you've done is quite different. Yeah it is quite different yes I mean I was you familiar with the Rock Follies before Hans Easy? Because the other work you've done is quite different. Yeah, it is quite different. Yes, I mean, I was on Women's Hour before for Mary Poppins. So and my role as Q is quite different to Mary Poppins. It's a different style of singing. She's a sort of altogether different character. But it's lovely that, you know, as an actor, we get to play all these different types of roles. I was aware of Rock Follies, but I hadn't seen any of it. So I did go and watch a few episodes. I looked up the sort of music videos on YouTube,

sort of get a feel of it. But yeah, it was just gorgeous to watch. And I've sort of, you know, you have to, as an actor, sort of put your own stamp on it. But Rula was definitely a big inspiration for sure. What about that, Rula? Listen, I am so proud to be part of this new vision of Follett's. I mean, one of the biggest differences with Q as I played her, and it was written that she believed that she was living out of her era. She wanted to be a topper girl. Consequently, she wore 20s and 30s clothes, which is

slightly different now, apart from I noticed your crochet waistcoat, which is very 70s. Yeah. Yes. But it brings you to the 70s. I mean, the outfits are amazing. The music is incredible. Like you're at, it's a musical and a rock concert and a play. And a happening. Yeah, all at the same time. And people are having a blast when they're there. But the thing that really struck me, and Arula, you've alluded to this, is that it was groundbreaking at the time. But the same issues are still there all these years later.

Male dominated industry, females still having to pay, you know, both physically and well, in every which way for being women. It's no easier than it was before. The conversations about homosexuality, the behaviour of the girls within their group in the first series, it's all about the little ladies against the world. And in the second series, it's the little ladies begin to break apart because of their very strong female, Kitty Schreiber, who takes them over. And it's obviously there's more of the music than there is of the drama because there simply isn't time. Yes, yes.

And I'm sure that is such a difficult thing to try and condense this series into this show. But it is, Cece, for people who, you know, haven't seen any of the clips from it, etc., how would you describe what it's like to perform during that show? Well, I mean, it's just fantastic to be part of a female trio and we sort of got each other's backs. And it's actually genuinely heartbreaking when we sort of all dissipate

in act two and and sort of i mean i i leave first um spoiler alert and uh you know and it's it it's it it but it's about finding your your self-worth and it's a lot about sort of women finding their own worth and and sort of standing up to, yes, like we've said, the male-dominated industry. But, you know, touching on what you said before, I think about showing how far we've still got to go, I think it shows how far we've come as well because I think the audience's reactions show that. You know, when we say things that maybe the men would have said back then,

the audience really reacts now, whereas they may have not even reacted before. So, and then obviously it shows how far we've still got to go. Can I just say that, I mean, the scripts were beautiful and the story written by Chloe now is brilliant. The lyrics of the songs, which you can hear beautifully, which you can't normally always do when you're watching musical theatre. But there are so many songs that are still, the one that springs to mind for me is The Things We Have To Do. And also there's a number which isn't in it called

The Wolf At The Door, where the first line is, when we began, we had a vision. And that vision now is rotten to the core. I mean, the way the women get exploited and their huge determination to stick together come thick or thin. Yes, it's like female friendship was the catalyst, I suppose, for the Rock Follies to come together. In the series, Rula, you made an album that was released, which really quite something. Oh, it was so incredibly exciting.

We went to number one with OK. The album went gold and platinum here and in Australia. I mean, we really did, or I certainly really felt I was part of a genuine rock band. That's what I wondered the whole time when I was watching it, because even the way you were able to step over the wires, take the microphone, like, I mean, it is skill. What about that, Susie?

Do you feel like you're part of a rock band? Absolutely. I mean, the wires have been a journey because... I was impressed. We're not we're not used to them. So we sort of had to make friends with them. And especially doing choreography with a big long mic wire is it's really tricky in heels as well. They love to get wrapped around you. But then it does give you that authentic 70s feel of, yeah, I'm in a 70s all female rock band. It is an amazing feeling.

It really is. What about an album? Oh, that would be very cool, wouldn't it? Don't you think, Rue? No, side by side, the original recordings of the new cast recording. Oh, yes, I'm up for that. Yeah, that would be brilliant. I mean, I'm very lucky.

I get to sing the song OK, which was a big hit for the band. That's sort of my my big solo number. So I'm very lucky to be able to sing that song every night. I do feel like a rock star in that moment. You are a rock star. You are. And Rula is a rock star. Thanks both to both of you so much for coming in to relive a little bit of Rock Follies and talk a little bit of Rock Follies that's happening right now, Rula Lenska. Can I just quickly say all my love to the whole cast and the crew.

And I had the most wonderfully magical evening of my life. And I will definitely be back to see you all again very soon. Thank you, Rula. Thank you. Rula Lenska and Zizi Strallin, who both have played, are playing Q, and Rock Follies will be running at the Chichester Festival Theatre

until the 26th of... I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Let me return to something we've been talking about all week. Loneliness. Maybe it's something you felt, maybe when you moved to a new city, maybe the early days as a new mum. Many of us are expected to experience it at some point in our life. Well, we're looking at the topic. On Monday, if you were with us,

I had Rachel and Beth, two women in their 30s who are lonely. Very raw, very honest discussion. You can find it on BBC Sounds if you'd like to listen to that. Yesterday, we heard from Dr Farhana Mann about the impact loneliness has on us as individuals. People who are lonely tend to take more risky health behaviours,

so in terms of other risk factors for health, whether it's smoking or physical inactivity, etc. Other aspects are impact on the immune system, so there's increasing work. We're not sure exactly how that sort of causal, those steps happen, but there's clear evidence to do with your inflammatory processes, and so we see differences in outcomes in things like heart problems or respiratory problems and also in mental health and depression and what's clear is if you already have an existing mental health problem you're or physical health problem you're at risk of becoming lonely but

also the other way around if you don't we've looked at people in the general population who don't have existing mental health problems and loneliness predisposes you to developing those problems over time. So it's kind of both ways. Thanks so much to Dr Farhana Mann. Well, the stats do tell us that it's women and young people who are most likely to experience it. So today we're asking what impact does loneliness have on society at large. And to discuss it with me in studio is Professor Noreena Hertz, an economist and author of The Lonely Century, where she explores how increasing isolation

has consequences for not only our economy, but also our democracy. So good to have you with us, Professor. So tell me a little bit about that, the increasing isolation. Where do you see it? So firstly, it's fantastic that you've been covering loneliness all week. It's such an important issue. You're absolutely right. Women

and young people are the loneliest in society. But just to remind our listeners about the stats, one in eight Brits say that they don't have a single friend that they can rely upon. One in eight. Over 50% of Brits feel lonely, often or always. Two in five pensioners, their main form of company is their television or pet. So it's a very, very widespread problem, which is why I wanted to really dig into what was going on, what are the implications? And importantly, what can we do about it? So what did you find when it came to loneliness and the economy and perhaps also that intersection with women as we are women's hour? Sure. So loneliness affects the workplace in a really profound way. Lonely workers are less productive, less motivated, more likely to quit than workers who aren't lonely.

60% of office workers in the UK feel lonely. And this is even before working from home and having to do your meetings on Zoom. So costing employers a lot, making the employees feel really down and bad. And we talked yesterday about the physical impact on health. And yet barely on employers' radars and costing the NHS, in terms of health problems, over £2 billion a year. So not on employers' radars, you see. Is it on the government's radar, do you think? Not enough. We do have a Minister of Loneliness in the UK, and we were the first country to set up this job. But the truth is, they don't really have any power. They don't really have a budget. They do what they can, but it's tokenistic.

And because so many of the drivers of loneliness are structural, things like our mobile phones, big drivers for loneliness. But how would you change that? I mean, nobody, I don't think, tell me if you do, listener, but I would imagine lots of people don't want the government, you know, monitoring their mobile phone use. We may not want our phones monitored, but I think a lot of people are coming to realise that in many ways social media is the tobacco industry of the 21st century and needs to be regulated as such. And actually, the government is going some ways in that direction with the online safety bill, which it will be imposing. Because, you know, why social media is so pernicious for loneliness in particular is because we've all done it.

We've all scrolled on our phones. In fact, Beth and Rachel were talking about it on your show, how they look on their feeds. And then it just looks like everyone's more popular than you. Bullying. A third of young women have experienced abuse on Facebook. If you're experiencing abuse, the world is going to feel lonelier. And loneliness being the expectation of connectedness, which I learned this year, with the actual reality of what you're feeling and it's that gap really between the two. But back to the government again,

I mean, should they really have a role in the personal relationships that we have with the people around us? So there are lots of things governments can do. One is restore what I call the infrastructure of community. Ever since 2008, we've seen over 800 public libraries closed down,

a third of youth clubs closed down, elderly daycare centres closed down, bus routes enabling people to go places to meet their friends closed down. So these are places where, yes, government can and should intervene to ensure that we do have a functioning infrastructure of community. Another thing governments could do are local shops. They play really important roles in mitigating loneliness. Even just a 30-second chat in a cafe with a waiter has been proven to make us feel more connected. So governments could be enabling local independent shops to have more favourable tax status so that they can survive more. And this is not pie in the

sky, Nuala. This is happening in other countries, in Belgium, in Sweden, in South Korea. What is happening? Initiatives, for example, to put a tax in Belgium on shops in high streets that are left empty for periods of time. The longer they're left empty, the higher the tax goes to disincentivise landlords from just holding out. In Chicago, they've been building new social housing blocks with branches of the Chicago Public Library on the ground floor so that local residents have a place to come together and so do people in the area. So across the world, we are seeing actually exciting initiatives taking place.

There was one, just as we talk about initiatives that are taking place elsewhere. But this was shocking to me that Japanese women were going to prison to avoid being alone. Have you? Yes, I write about this in my book, The Lonely Century. It's heartbreaking. The fastest growing demographic who are being incarcerated, who are being jailed in Japan, are over 65s, predominantly women. And when researchers started looking into why this was, they discovered it was because so many were intentionally committing crimes like shoplifting to be jailed because they felt so lonely. They were craving the connection and community they could find in prison that they couldn't find elsewhere.

I'm going to jump over to another part of society now. And this was something that struck me. In your book, you mentioned that married women are most likely to be lonely, whereas married men are the least likely to be lonely. What's going on? Well, this is actually quite recent research that has come out. I think it's partly to do with loneliness, not only feeling that you're craving friendship and connection, but also a feeling of being ignored, unseen and unheard. And unfortunately, partly to do with the disproportionate sharing of household tasks and caring responsibilities in the home, a lot of women who are married can feel to some degree that they're actually not being seen and heard and their needs are

not being acknowledged. And that can precipitate loneliness for sure. There's also, of course, the unfortunate situation which we saw during the pandemic of a rise in domestic abuse. Nothing lonelier than being in an abusive relationship. I mean, nothing lonelier. So those are a couple of reasons why married women might be finding it. And again, speaks to government, lack of childcare facilities, provision for childcare, leaving often young mothers feeling quite desperate. How do they cope with job or even not with the job, but looking after the child

with such a lack of support? So lots of reasons behind that data. We've had a huge response every day, Noreena, that we've spoken about loneliness. Here are a few that have come in this morning, Charlotte on Instagram. At the age of 30, I left a small commuter town

and moved to London. The reason being I was lonely as my friends at the time were busy raising kids. I had to build a friendship group which meant going out, joining groups, pre-social media and I've created a good life. However I still have moments of loneliness in a big city. I recently met up with old friends

in Hertfordshire I think she says and may consider moving back to that town in the next few years as we still have a great connection. I'm outgoing and sociable, so it shows it can affect anyone at any stage. Another here from Anne. If they got involved in voluntary work in their area,

they could meet new people and new friendships would develop, I'm sure. I volunteer to walk dogs for people who are unable to take their beloved pets out for walks. You make friends with the owner and meet others while walking. Dogs always promote conversation with other walkers. Volunteering, very proven way to mitigate loneliness. Also, you live longer if you

volunteer more. The research shows that's another good reason to volunteer. And the loneliness of a city, 56% of Londoners are lonely. But do you think it's certain cities over other cities? Well, what's interesting, my book is now out in 20 different countries and 20 languages. And when I go from country to country on the book tour, it's amazing how it's resonating across the world. So this is clearly a global problem and a global urban problem, as well as a global and rural problem. Let me get also to the issue of democracy that I mentioned at the beginning. How does loneliness impact on that? What intersection are you seeing?

So it was actually my research into the rise of right-wing populism across the globe that got me into this whole subject of loneliness. I wanted to understand why were people voting for politicians like Donald Trump in America or Marine Le Pen in France or Fratelli d'Italia or Alternative für Deutschland. And as I started interviewing people who were voting for these parties, it became very clear that they were disproportionately lonely. Lonely in the sense that they didn't have friends,

but also lonely in that sense of feeling unseen, ignored, unheard. And interestingly, it's women as well that this generation of right-wing populist leaders are speaking to and reaching. There used to be this gender divide between people who would vote for right-wing populist parties and that has really been closing over the last few years with these parties really weaponising community in order to attract and prey upon lonely people. So we see for, if you think about Giorgio Milan, the Prime Minister of Italy, right populist party, the party is even called Brothers of Italy, you know, Fratelli d'Italia. She talks about community, about family. We see in Belgium, right populist parties having

anti-immigration talks inside and face painting for kids outside. Think about Trump's rallies when everyone was chanting together, wearing the same branded red MAGA caps. These political parties are speaking to community. They're speaking to the lonely. They're saying, we hear you and we see you. Of course, they're doing it at the expense of others. They're also playing to the fact that lonely people do disproportionately see the world as a threatening place, as a hostile place. And right wing politicians are playing to that with their anti-immigrant, anti-other messages. What I am seeing from our listeners is the word community again and again. It is coming in. This is anonymous on Instagram. In these days of instant

24 hour worldwide communication I feel it's made us lonelier than ever before. Face to face and spoken contact is going out of fashion. We're losing our communities, our support networks. I'm 58 and a single parent. My children are away at uni. I had no idea how utterly lonely having an empty nest would be. It gnaws away

at me. It's horrible. Thank you for discussing this. I feel ashamed to say I'm lonely and know there are so many people who are worse off than me, but it doesn't change how I feel. And that issue of shame has come up many times as well. Thank you so much for coming in

to make us think about these issues when it comes to loneliness as well. Professor Noreena Hertz, The Lonely Century is her book, as I mentioned. And we're continuing, of course, to look at loneliness across this week. So go to BBC Sounds to find out more about our other items.

Tomorrow, how can you alleviate feelings of loneliness? And what can you do if you feel that someone you know might be lonely? I'm going to be joined by Claudia Hammond, psychologist and presenter of All In The Mind on Radio 4. Also Francesca Spector, author of Alonement, which also explores these ideas. Keep them coming. OK, on to something quite different. Would you use fig and pine nut hand scrub? What about a rose lip balm?

What about some tree gum anti-wrinkle cream? They are just a few of the 16th century beauty recipes that Professor Jill Burke has included in her new book, How to Be a Renaissance Woman, The Untold History of Beauty and Female Creativity. There's also tips for losing weight.

That includes avoiding melancholy for at least an hour and a half before bed. And Jill's book delves into women's bodies anxieties at that time, explores how artists, painters and the invention of the full length mirror influenced them. I'm pleased to say that Jill is with me now. Good morning. Welcome. Good morning. And what, Jill, possessed you to go down this path of trying to understand what it was like to be a Renaissance woman? Well, I'd written a book on the nude and did an exhibition on the Renaissance nude.

And it struck me, what did women think about suddenly being portrayed in this way you know with the focus on naked bodies and the focus on beauty that you have in the Italian Renaissance Do you know what I'm going to do Professor You know we're going to actually just try and we're going to try Professor sorry to improve your line a little bit because it's just breaking in and out and so let's try and do that

in the meantime while they get that set up I'm just going to go and read that. In the meantime, while they get that set up, I'm just going to go and read some more of the comments which have been coming in in their droves. And thank you for them. 84844 if you'd like

to get in touch on text. Here's Eve. She says, I feel relieved to hear that other people are dealing with this too. Having become largely housebound due to long COVID for the past one and a half years,

my friends have slowly dropped away and what was once a buzzing social life has now become a coffee with a friend here and there after me chasing them for months i'm feeling the lack of community so strongly especially living in london where everyone's running around like headless chickens with no time for meaningful connection does eve speak to to you? 84844. Here's Helen on Instagram. Loneliness affects everyone. Joining in and staying connected works.

Find a purpose. Keep an open mind. Don't overthink. Find joy in solitude as well as with others too. And solitude is different to loneliness as we were talking about this week. Keep your sense of wonder. That's a nice one.

Talk on the phone. Don't text. I'm writing this list for myself as much as for you. Well, thanks of wonder. That's a nice one. Talk on the phone. Don't text. I'm writing this list for myself as much as for you. Well, thanks, Helen. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Right, let me turn back to the Renaissance and to Professor Jill Burke. Okay, we have a better connection to you, Professor. Why did you want to do this? You talked about the nude, looking at particularly the Renaissance nude. But how do you end up, I don't't know with marrow and snails I started thinking so what are women feeling about all these nudes being around and does it affect the way that people understand

their own bodies or the way they look at women's bodies and so I started finding thinking are there any is there any evidence about body hair removal so I started finding all these recipes for body hair removal. And it became clear that Renaissance women were indeed removing their body hair. And what were they doing it with? Sorry to interrupt. Oh, all sorts of things. Give us an idea. They did use wax, for example.

They did have kind of wax and sticky tree gums and things. But they also used quicklime, which melted the hair off there's a lots of cautionary tales about you know taking it off quick enough before your flesh burns off um i know but you know just like things like veet work today it's an alkaline solution so we've got to also be careful um and um but then i found out that there's recipes for all sorts of things, you know, for moisturizer, for toner, for anti wrinkle cream. There's slimming tips and there's hundreds of these recipes that still exist in printed books and in manuscripts. And then I started to think more broadly about what women thought about beauty. Did they feel pressurized to look good? How did they kind of juggle different ideas of beauty

and different things they're doing in their life? And that's really what the book's about. I was really astounded by how much women actually talked about these things in the 16th and 17th century. I found as well so much of it so modern. You know, we were talking with Rula Lenska earlier about the 70s

being so resonant, some of those themes today. But let's go back to the 16th century and we have that again. Particularly slimming tips. I was hoping when I looked at Renaissance paintings with curvy bodies

that those women weren't being pressurised in the same way. But unfortunately, yes. Oh, absolutely. Both pressurised to be slimmer and to be fatter. So, you know, it was harder, I think, to be to have clear skin was really tough in the Renaissance because there are a lot of bugs about like scabies, a lot of things like smallpox around.

So that was really prized. It was really prized to have a kind of plump body. You weren't allowed to be too fat body you weren't allowed to be too fat and you weren't allowed to be too thin so basically these pressures on women haven't changed um they demand the specific kind of things that you have to be might have changed but there's there's been pressures at least since the 16th century and i think the 16th century was particularly a kind of a flash point for a lot of these touches on women to be beautiful coming together. So give us a slimming tip. So you would sleep on a hard bed, be melancholy and have lots of arguments.

This kind of thing. That kept you slim. But there was something I was reading about, you know you wanted bigger eyes oh yeah so that's you should play ball games to have big i mean honestly this is some some of the tips are not quite you know peer-reviewed uh so you play ball games um sit in dark rooms and look at points of light this kind of thing to um make your eyes bigger and also you know eat eat drink a lot of milk and things like that. That was thought to make everything bigger in the body, you know, and things that we might think of as fattening today were understood

to change the body's humeral makeup. And that means, you know, that affect it to make you more or less beautiful. And some of the outside influences, I was really struck by the full length mirror making an appearance. I guess I think of it as a modern invention. And I suppose I've often lived without one. But then thinking, you know, just the house didn't have one or whatever, that they had them in the 16th century. Yeah. So before the 16th century, most mirrors were small convex mirrors. so they curved outwards, which doesn't give a true reflection of your face. And you can't really see your body in it at all.

Then it was actually the late 15th century. They started to develop glass that was flat enough so you could have these full length mirrors for the very first time. So this is the first time that people were able to see their entire bodies reflected back at them. And it's interesting to think about what that meant in terms of self-awareness and how people see their own bodies and also criticize their own bodies. So you do have the sense that people are more aware of what they look like and how other people see them in the 16th century than ever before. In the small mirror or the big mirror, they could see their noses. There were nose jobs.

Yes. Yeah, I mean, the nose, poor nose, took a lot of, you know, lots of terrible things happened to people's noses, particularly women who were thought to have done something wrong, so have been adulterous or something like that, often their noses were splashed or cut in some ways, a sign of public shame. But there was also nose reconstruction surgery

starting in the 15th century and going right through to the 17th. What they did was take a flap of skin from the bottom part of your upper arm, and you'd have to sit with your elbow raised. So and that flap of skin was joined to your face, to your face to create a nose. And you'd sit with your elbow raised for, you know, several days until that graft effectively took. I want to talk about the relationship between men and women, because the men were making the pamphlets on beauty, as I understand,

that we'll be talking about, whatever it is that you might decide to beautify yourself with. But men were surprised when they realised that women actually enjoyed some of these beautifying procedures or would share that information with other women? Yeah, so there's a long tradition of women sharing beauty recipes. So people would make a lot of these beauty products at home, things like hair dye, hair conditioner, moisturiser. Most of those were made at home and maybe made for female friends, female relatives. But there's a big difference in literacy between men and women at this time

and printing starts in the late 15th century and starts to get really really popular in the 16th century and how two books are a very popular genre and basically what happened in the early 16th century is that men took these recipes that were circulated amongst women in oral culture and printed them um and so we have an insight into the kind of recipes that people were using but also men really berated women for caring about their beauty so men wanted women to be beautiful but they wanted them to be naturally beautiful and so they invented all these rules and then and then when women tried to um synthetically be beautiful men would cross about it but they also found that some women were using makeup in ways that men didn't approve of so there's a great passage in one of these books where he says

why do women keep dying their hair red because you know men don't like their hair being red um and but you and you see these wonderful portraits with women with these really bright red hairstyles. Are other women just choosing not to go down the blonde, kind of curled hair route that other men liked and just choosing to have dark hair? And dark hair was associated with argumentative women. I love that.

I've had a lot of redheads in my studio. I had Rula Lenska earlier. Of course, such a famous redhead and Zizi plays Q as a redhead as well and of course I often think of when I think of the Renaissance I do think of

red hair women reclining on a chaise long all the day long Do you have a favourite? I've just about 30 seconds Professor Burke Do you have a favourite? I know you have Renaissance goo

you're creating recipes as well if I was going to put something on my face that I might find at home what would it be? It would be sheep's fat I'm sorry it sounds awful

sheep's fat and tree gum anti-wrinkle cream which actually feels really nice like an anti-wrinkle cream you might get today and the recipe is in my book

so you can make them at home And the book is How to Be a Renaissance Woman, The Untold History of Beauty and Female Creativity. It is a total eye opener. I loved it. Professor Jill Burke, thank you so much for spending some time with us here on Woman's Hour. Now tomorrow, Anita's here from TEN. Lucy Calcines, the Cuban-Spanish singer-songwriter

will be performing live in the studio ahead of headlining the Latino Life in the Park Festival this weekend so you will not want to miss that I will miss you next week but I'll be back the week after I'll speak to you then

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