Woman's Hour - Actor Anne Marie Duff, Chinese feminism, the story of Henrietta Howard

Episode Date: May 19, 2022

Actor Anne Marie Duff talks to Emma Barnett playing a working class matriarch in a new play that spans five decades of the lives, and deaths, of the Webster family.Last September 19, 2021, Sophia Huang Xueqin, the Chinese journalist who kick-started China’s #MeToo movement, disappeared. We find out what has happened to her from BBC Eye journalist Jessie Lau who's been investigating her disappearance,. Plus writer and journalist Lijia Zhang explains what it's like to be a feminist in China.Plus Anna Eavis the Curatorial director at English Heritage tells us the the story of Henrietta Howard, Countess of Suffolk, and mistress of King George II, as Marble Hill, a Palladian villa built in the 1720s for her, prepares to open to the public following its restoration Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell Photo credit; Helen Murray

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today, the actor Anne-Marie Duff will be with me shortly to talk about her latest role on stage in a new play, which sees her becoming an incredible but quite unlikable matriarch. I did see it last week. And you can love this woman one minute and despise her the next. And I thought it would be good today to make some space on the programme to hear about the formidable matriarchs who've passed through

your life. They might still be in them, of course, or in some way, someone like that, that perhaps fits the bill that you think of when I say the word matriarch? For good or bad, I'm in the market for both. Please do get in touch if you can with some of those stories, who these women are, why perhaps they come to mind when you hear the word matriarch and also the word formidable, and what was going on in their life that sometimes made them perhaps more difficult. 84844 is the number you need to text me here at Women's Hour on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website. I'll be talking to Anne-Marie Duff about how she gets into such a character and why that character is the way she is very shortly indeed. Also on today's programme, there might not be a functioning devolved

government in Northern Ireland right now, but some of the female newly elected and re-elected members of the Northern Ireland's Legislative Assembly are still dealing with the fallout of the recent elections. One of them, Kelly Armstrong, will be with me to share a particularly important but difficult experience. We're also going to be shining a light on what's happened to the woman who kick-started China's Me Too movement, and why you might like to know who Henrietta Howard was, and have a snoop around her house. There you go. But first, the Conservative MP accused of rape and sexual assault will not attend Parliament while police carry out their investigations, the Speaker of the House of Commons has confirmed. The unnamed man in his 50s was arrested on

Tuesday over allegations dating back to between 2002 and 2009. He has been released on bail to date in mid-June, to a mid-June pending further inquiries. But is that enough to make people feel safe? There are thousands of people, of course, who work in the Palace of Westminster and around it, not just the MPs, but their staff. The GMB union has said that staff safety must be the absolute priority and no chances should be taken. Well, the MPs, but their staff. The GMB union has said that staff safety must be the absolute priority and no chances should be taken. Well, in a moment, I'll be talking to Jenny Simmons, who's chair of the GMB union's wing that looks after MPs staff. But first, let's catch up with Pippa Criarra, who's the political editor of the Daily Mirror,

actually soon to be the political editor of the Guardian. Pippa, congratulations for the new move. Thanks, Emma. It's good to embarrass you straight away. But it's all because I remember those scoops, and many of them from you, with regards to so-called partygate at number 10. But I digress. This particular story, you know, sometimes, if you like, there is a Westminster bubble, and there's talk of, you know, things being slightly different within that and then outside of that. But, you know, it's safe to say, and these are just allegations at the moment, we should keep stressing, no charge is brought.

But I imagine there has been quite an atmosphere and quite a reaction to this story within the circles that you move. Yes, absolutely. I mean, we've had, unfortunately, a series of incidents involving MPs, which have resulted in two by-elections coming up at the end of the month as the MPs stood down. And some of those cases have been quite high profile. And it's really shocking, actually. These are very serious allegations, rape, sexual assault and misuse of public office that this particular MP is facing.

And I think, you know, the severity of them, I think, probably has that impact that even though we're in Westminster and we all talk about this so-called Pestminster scandal all the time and, you know, people have their own experiences of it particular case is it feels like it's particularly egregious these allegations so I think people are kind of quite shaken up by this and as you rightly say the it's really prompted a debate about anonymity and clearly the the MP has been granted anonymity in order to protect the alleged victim and that is a really important legal principle and one which the press, although the identity of the MP is quite widely known, are rightly sticking to.

But there's almost double standards being applied because he's not yet being stripped of the whip, but he's been asked to stay away from Westminster, therefore presumably protecting the thousands of people that work on the estate, but not his own constituents that don't know the identity of the individual or people out in the wider public.

And I think there's a really, really difficult issue here because the press obviously have a legal and moral duty to strike the right balance between that right to privacy, but also balancing it with the public interest and the right to transparency. And I think if you get it wrong, you risk damaging democracy and further undermining that trust in politics. And that's a real problem and you consider that the rules changed in 2016 the MPs changed the rules themselves up until that point anybody that was under criminal investigation their identity was known and the MPs changed the rules so that they're they were protected primarily obviously to protect um uh to protect their victims, their alleged victims. But it does feel like the system favours sometimes those individuals

who are accused or charged over the safeguarding of employees and constituents. And that's obviously a big concern. And that's what the debate about. There's a couple of debates there, isn't there, about the remaining anonymous, but also the importance of protecting an alleged victim, those who've made this allegation, I should say, because still no charges, but also the right for the information and for the public at the same time, and as well as what's going on within people's constituencies. House of Commons Standard Committee posted a series of tweets yesterday saying some of what you've just said here. It's all very well to ask the MP to stay away. But what about constituency venues where that's not applicable? What consideration has been applied to those? Jenny, it's a good point to bring you in.

We should also be clear it's not a charge. It's an allegation, as we understand, from a single complainant. No other alleged victims have come forward. But when you look at this in terms of an employment situation your union looks after MP staff what are you saying to your members? Well we've been asking them today actually you know what do you think about the argument that some people are saying it's we can't ban an MP from the parliamentary estate or from the chamber because it's unconstitutional so they're not able to go and represent their constituents and then we've come to the conclusion you know it's not up to us to decide um what the right mechanism is and it's not for us for us to decide you know how to

get around this constitutional question we just need to keep people safe and there's thousands of people who work in the parliamentary state and then there's thousands more who work around the uk um in their constituencies and we do need to make sure that no risks are taken so i think that it is we do need to find a way to make sure that mps who are under investigation for sexual assault are not able to go into westminster or their constituency offices or go into schools um care homes uh hold surgeries all these events, all these kind of interactions with the public, which may put those vulnerable people at risk.

Would that bring the House of Commons Westminster in line with other places of employment? Yes, I think it's standard practice that in other workplaces, if you're under investigation for sexual misconduct, you wouldn't be allowed to go into the office. You might be put on gardening leave. You might just be told, you know, you need to work from home or you might be suspended completely. But either way, it's a completely normal procedure. But Westminster is not a normal workplace.

We're dealing with people, office holders rather than employees. So MPs don't have bosses to tell them that they can't do X, Y, Z. They have the whips who can say,s don't have bosses to tell them that they can't do X, Y, Z. They have the whips who can say, please don't come to Parliament, please honour this request, but that's all they can do. And those office holders are all individual employers who have a very unique relationship with their staff. So it's completely unlike any other workplace in the UK. And that's what we as the GMB Union are trying to navigate around and support staff with. A message here, while the allegations against the MP are undoubtedly

serious, the hysteria being whipped up by the media, sadly, including women's art is absurd. It needs to be borne in mind, excuse me, that the allegations relate to events that took place over 13 years ago. There's no evidence at all that the MP poses any current threat to anyone. Pippa, you were talking about the way that this is being reported and some of the very serious conditions and considerations that are going on in editors' and journalists' minds. Our conversation, of course, because it is relatively limited what can be said at the moment, is specifically around what are the rules and how those rules are different or are not different around those who make the laws in this country.

But I don't know what you would say to that, Pippa, because that's directly about, I suppose, you and then if the case proceeds and potential charges is absolutely imperative. I think the fact that it happened some time ago, it was a period spanning seven years, I think 2002 to 2009, is irrelevant. If somebody committed historical sexual offences they are and haven't actually been held to account for it, I mean more generally I'm not talking about a specific case, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that either they haven't continued doing that since or would be potentially capable of doing it again, so I think the timing is totally relevant. And I think that particularly those in public life, that balance that you have to strike as a journalist between what's in the public interest and, you know,

transparency and so forth with the right of the individual to privacy because the potentially more high profile individual is one that you have to consider even more carefully, probably than you would if it was a private individual, because the ramifications, if charges are dropped or somebody is found innocent or, you know... Or if it was wrong to have the, you know, the accusation in the first place as well, which we have seen, you know, I've interviewed the likes of Harvey Proctor, of course, and Operation Midland. So it's absolutely right that we regard this incredibly carefully. And currently the position of the press is that we're talking about this individual case and preserving that anonymity,

not just for legal reasons, but also for ethical ones. Exactly that point that we are being careful. However, because it is somebody who is in such a position of power, they make the laws of this land, they have access to the government. I think it's right that we do cover this incident,

this particular case, but also the broader picture. I mean, there are currently, well, since the, there's a system called the Independent Complaints and Grievances Scheme, which was set up in the House of Commons cross party, led by Andrew Legson, who at the time was Commons leader, set up in 2017, came into practice in 2018. And since that point, they've investigated hundreds of allegations,

specifically allegations about MPs. There's been 56 since 2018. That's allegations of bullying, sexual harassment, harassment and so on. And there's currently about 15, one five MPs under investigation by the ICGS. Now, that might find some of them, you know, there's no there's no case to answer. But there clearly is an issue going on at Westminster in the same way that there is in workplaces up and down the country. And it's right that those individuals who are accused or charged or further down the line found guilty or held to account for that. Pippa Crear, the political editor of the Daily Mirror, thank you. And Jenny Simmons, the chair of the GMB unions wing that does look after MP staff, asking what they're thinking this morning in light of those allegations, which as to stress are allegations at the moment. The unnamed MP, the unnamed Conservative MP, was arrested on Tuesday and has been released on bail to a date in mid-June pending further inquiries.

Now, my next guest, who's just walked into the studio, doesn't shy away from playing tough, loving and complicated women on stage and screen. In fact, I think we can argue she positively runs at them. Anne-Marie Duff's latest role is no different. She's playing Constance Webster, the reluctant matriarch of a Midlands working-class family in a new play called The House of Shades by Beth Steele on at London's Almeida Theatre. The play is a kitchen sink drama in which you think her character may actually throw the kitchen sink at someone

and charts one family's existence over five decades in this country, taking in Thatcher, Blair, Brexit, as well as abuse and abortion. Anne-Marie Duff, good morning. Good morning. Well, how do we get into this? Don't worry, I've planned it. But I have asked our listeners actually already this morning for who comes to mind when I say matriarch, good or bad. And there's already some amazing thoughts coming in and memories. There's one here that just says, my mother-in-law died in 2019. I can still feel her

life force. Haunted is too strong a word, but I feel and see her still. Tempestuous relationships, but could disarm with a twinkle of her eye. Quite a woman and all directed from her wheelchair. Wowzers. You are personifying a matriarch, and I say reluctant, we'll get into that. How and why did you want to do this particular role? Well, it was the writing as it always is. I know people always, you know, we always say that, but it is the most spectacular play. The dialogue is so tasty.

And also it's another brilliant story about a thwarted woman and also about how unresolved trauma we're very generous with it and we share it with our families and and also just there's so many things it's a it's a political play but of course it's fantastically domestic and then the domestic is always political of course but for me just there are so many themes that um dissect what it means to have been a woman in the 20th century and also to be a woman in the 21st century i mean there are i mentioned some you know difficult issues there also something some things which are very dark. There's also a lot of humour as well in there. You do get the chance to sing, I should say.

You've got a wonderful voice. Well, that's very kind of you. I don't know if I do, but that's very kind of you. It was just a lovely experience within that. And she also can, this particular character, riff off Bette Davis quotes, like someone could do i don't know football school she's she's so fluent with them and there's there's a sadness and a

warmth you hold with her this sort of character because she doesn't have much money but the money that she has she spends on these beautiful dresses that in her life and in the parameters of her quite boxed in life she can't go anywhere amazing in these dresses. Oh, no. So she's living a sort of version of her life in her imagination, you know, and I think that's just, you know, think of all these aspirational people who never get to the other side of the sliding door, you know, and I think that certainly... Well, the play starts, the first chapter is in 1965.

And at that time, most certainly, to feel that you had any control over your destiny, if you were female, was very rare. There was a story, you know, the fable had already been written. This is where you'll end up and you'll be grateful you know so i think this is sort of it's it's a kind of resource that people lean on isn't it their imagination when life doesn't turn out the way you want it to you kind of create a version of it for yourself just to get up in the morning i guess exactly and also you know there's nothing more powerful than the stories we tell ourselves nothing yeah but there is that it's an antidote really some of this play a woman's life throughout

all this change as well and you see her family grow up as well and become adults you know we do we are fed a diet now especially through social media of you can be what you want to be if you just try but you know there was no way for a woman like this in to change what was if you like the cards already laid out for her. Absolutely. And if you wanted something else, if you didn't want to be a mother, for example, that was desperately unacceptable. But also, I do think it's still very, you know, it's really pertinent, this notion that, you know, socioeconomics, we can't all be what we want to be and it's a big lie for a huge part of our population so um i think it feels very familiar to a lot of people still and you could look at this as well i mean very politically because there's rows in the family about politics yeah

which i really enjoyed um and lots of this i enjoyed. But, you know, the idea of aspiration versus reality, but also in light of the recent, you know, election results and what happened with the Red Wall seats and why they would then perhaps move some of those people as they did in had done to them and were doing to each other and doing to themselves. Were you drawn to that because it's so current as well as historic? Well, sometimes it just feels like we recycle, doesn't it? You know, everything changes and nothing changes. I mean, we talk about all sorts of things. There's an unwanted pregnancy in the play. We've got currently the whole situation with Roe versus Wade. We talk about there's a female character in the play who's a Thatcherite.

She's a young woman who's mad about Thatcher. And she talks about unemployment being the answer to tackling inflation. And what did we have a week ago, was it? You know, Boris is talking about laying off 90,000 people because that will be really useful to tackle inflation. Well, he's also made a big virtue of the job numbers being what they are. But there's, you know, today if we're talking about inflation, only yesterday the numbers came out, you know, and this is people's lives right now and the cost of living.

You know, it's all in there, how people are trying to get by. And I think that's what's so clever about Beth's writing, that if you really are plugged into what it means to be part of a society, then really and truly, the universe keeps throwing the same stuff on us until we work it out. And we just aren't working it out yet. What did you make of this? It's actually a male character in the play. Your son, Jack, attacks the myth of feminine working class solidarity by arguing women have, while having a strong sense of community, have also historically kept each other tied to the home by shaming each other over the state of how clean their doorsteps are. It feels like easy propaganda, doesn't it?

You know, to say that. Although your character is so judgmental about having to go down the street and ask for a bit of help when there is something shameful, as she sees it, in her home. And it's so sad to see that, isn't it? Yeah, I guess it's again, you know, it's the microcosm, isn't it? If you're not, if you have all that energy and you're not using it and all, you're very frustrated. And so what do you do? You make it about the minutiae, about the teacup or the doorstep or the, you know, so it's, it's the battle, isn't it? But also it's the humour of it. And, but at that moment in the play of course she's in a very frightened position so I feel I feel that she feels oh I feel that she feels I feel that she feels but I mean there's a lot of

feeling there's a lot of feeling going on but uh there's this notion of having let yourself down or and and it's it's just the version of yourself that you present to the world becomes so important. I mean, she's so unlikable at times, though. She is. She's destroying people around her. She throws grenades into the situation. Well, I mean, to be at a beer with her in the pub would be lethal. After a couple.

But also she's a victim of, you know, she grew up in a household that was full of domestic abuse. And as I said earlier, you know, what happens if you don't get the chance to resolve all those issues? But the point is you can tell how much she loves her family though at the same time, her children. And yet there's so much harm that she doles out as well.

Because, you know, unless you get to testify, unless you get to own your own story, you're constantly asking for people to listen to you. And by fair means or foul, you will do that. One of the most emotional bits, and we have mentioned it, is about her daughter, her very young daughter getting pregnant and not knowing how to resolve that. And as you say, a very live discussion, certainly in America at the moment, because of this leak from the Supreme Court, which may see Roe v. Wade be overturned with the nationwide rights to abortion. But it's also the visceral nature of her response

that she just does not want to raise another child. You know, the last one of the three that she's had, she didn't want to clean the home. I think you say she wanted to smash it up. Was that right? We talk about potential, you about potential postnatal depression. And that as a hemming her in is such a powerful message. It really is.

It's just this notion that you do as you're told. Or, well, surely there's something wrong with you if you don't feel those instincts. Or, you know, there's a huge mountain of shame, as we know, around all of those subject matters but yeah so for her she's felt at last I did my job I raised my children now's my time I want to go out I want to say actually be and be and be more of myself and then suddenly well no don't be so silly now don't be be selfish. And for her, it's utterly terrifying.

It's a life or death situation for her. And that's not to be underestimated or judged, I think. I think for a lot of women, they feel cornered. I was lucky. You know, I was so lucky. I knew I wanted to be a mum. It was very easy for me, Anne-Marie. It was very clear to me, you know.

And so it just felt like a natural step forward but it doesn't always feel like that for a large number of women and you don't want to corner people like that you know so it's a healthy discussion to have I think it is it is and you do it very well I did read Anne-Marie Duff that you had a talking to yourself before you turned 50 you said it was always your scary age are you you 51 now? Yes, I am. Thank you very much. Come on. What did you say to yourself? Did you get yourself on board? How's it been? It's great. Of course, it's great because you are where you are. But you know, you have these versions of your life, don't you? We all do it. We play the movie forward and go well by this age and then of course that's not

the truth at all and um yeah so it's it's interesting it's interesting but I've you know there's so many extraordinary role models aren't there of my generation so I'm I'm lucky really yeah I like the fact I was imagining it because you also you also said in the same piece that I was reading that you call yourself Duff on your cross. Come on. Come on, Duff. Because I infuriate myself quite a lot. Well, there's a lot of people who are very interested in this latest role and giving us some of their memories of their matriarchs, to which I shall return. But you are stellar in this and, as ever,

bring such emotional power and range to it. It was a real privilege to be able to see it. Thank you so much. It means a lot. Thank you. It's called The House of Shades. It's continuing at the Almeida Theatre until the 18th of June. And I hope you get a good night's sleep after doing that each night.

Somehow. If only. I'm a mother, so if only. If only. Anne-Marie Duff, all the best to you. A message here just about matriarchs. My grandmother, this is extraordinary, comes to mind when I hear matriarch. We come from a culture where boys are valued over girls. She had six girls and after she had her son, the seventh child, she left

her difficult marriage. She raised all seven with some help from her mum and ruled the household with an iron fist. Even as a child, I remember her being super strict and keeping everyone in check on behaviours and appearance. I still can't show up to her house looking shabby or I'll get a telling

off. She's an entrepreneur. She's going to be 90 next year but still spends her days in her home office running inventory on her bread business. Wow, she sounds amazing. She taught me women are powerful beings and never to take nonsense from a man. What an amazing portrait there. Thank you very much for that. Keep those stories of those matriarchs coming on 84844. Now, with the row over post-Brexit rules governing trade in Northern Ireland carrying on, with the UK government announcing plans to introduce a law which will override the Northern Ireland Protocol, and there still being no functioning devolved government there. Members of the Legislative Assembly, the MLAs, were still appointed at the beginning of the month in the local elections. And some of the successful female candidates are still dealing with the fallout. Not least Kelly Armstrong, an MLA for the Alliance Party, a liberal centrist party, that's how it describes itself, that became the third largest party in Northern Ireland for the first time. Kelly Armstrong, good morning.

Good morning. Thank you for being with us today. And I'm sorry to sort of begin like this, but this is really at the heart of it and what was going on for you. You know, only minutes after you were re-elected, which I'm sure was a very happy moment in terms of your job and representing your communities, you were sent, I understand, quite a graphic image, to say the least.

Yes, I was the first Emily in Northern Ireland to be elected. And as you can imagine, as soon as that happens, there's the cheers, there's the happiness, and then the messages start to come through in your phone of congratulations. And one in particular, I opened to be met with quite graphic images of an aborted fetus. I'm known in Northern Ireland as being a politician who has been quite open about my history of multiple miscarriages and seeing images like that for anybody is upsetting but for me it just floored me. It brought me completely out of the situation I was in I ended up having to

leave the count centre and the celebrations just to pull myself together again and of my 14 pregnancies one survived and having multiple miscarriages is difficult enough but when people target women particularly in Northern Ireland when access to abortion is still not easy. It's very difficult. My personal position is pro-choice and that's choice to be pregnant or not be pregnant because having been through so many

miscarriages for a period of time I would have been known as the baby killer, the person that keeps getting pregnant and killing children because I kept on having miscarriages because the debate about abortion in Northern Ireland is quite callous. It's quite a lonely field to plough whenever you're a female politician that takes a pro-choice view

and Westminster is having to step in now and take legislation forward and make sure that abortion services can be provided the same as the rest of the UK. But at that moment, it took me right back to a miscarriage where what you see and how you feel, and it's devastating. It is part of malicious communications to send images like that, but it doesn't seem to matter, and it continues on.

So many of the women who were elected at the same time as me, we now make up 35% of the Northern Ireland Assembly, have received images that are either of men's penises or aborted fetuses, of other genitalia. It's just unbelievable. It's ongoing. And unfortunately, there seems to be an issue that the police cannot get to the bottom of who these people are to take successful prosecutions anonymous trolls, people hiding behind fake identities makes it very difficult

to actually do something proactive about that to stop it from happening. Kelly I'm just so sorry that you received that and as you say to take you, you've been generous enough to be open about uh losing losing pregnancies going through that having miscarriages i believe is it is it 14 i have 14 pregnancies and my my seventh is my daughter and he's a big grown-up girl now but

um yeah my last would have been when i was 42, which is a few years ago now. But yeah, over a period of, my goodness, 20 years of my life, trying to be pregnant and to go through that system. And it's not the first time I've received images of aborted fetuses. They just tend to get more and more graphic. There might not be a way of knowing this, because you were talking about the abuse of other women who, of course, have different experiences and politics and stories. But do you think that that was deliberate to you because of what you have shared? The message that accompanied the images was targeted,

directly targeted, basically calling me shameful or disgrace, and that they hoped different things would happen with me but that's with the police at the moment and it's I think people just believe that they can say and do whatever they want now I absolutely respect someone's right to be pro-life anti-choice whatever anybody wants to call that. I respect that. But it's the images and it's the hate that comes with it is very difficult. So you can imagine on a day when my party was celebrating, we managed to at long last break through that ceiling and have a liberal voice in Northern Ireland. And I'm trying

to do my best, my running partner in my constituency, who we got to elected in the same time. And meanwhile, all I can see when I close my eyes is the images of parts of babies. And it's very upsetting. And it just goes to show how much we still need to understand the harm that can be caused by such images and understand why these things are illegal.

I am incredibly sorry that you have been targeted and have had to see that, especially because of everything that you've been through. And I know, well, you had to deal with that, process that if you can, and leave the count. Of course, I'm sure you're trying to stay focused on what you've got to do and the job in hand. And also, I'm sure, in some ways,

be aware of the fact that you and the greatest in hand. And also, I'm sure, in some ways, be aware of the fact that you and, you know, the greatest number of women who've been in this position in Northern Ireland want to act as role models to other women coming through. But do you worry about, you know, talking about this ever? Not that I'm saying you shouldn't, because it's important and it's also with the police, but just because of, you know,

the potential message it gives to those who are coming through in the next generation um to be honest i'm more i was a brave counselor um during the sort of the last years of of going through my miscarriages um and to be honest it's very important for me for other women who've been through pregnancy loss to know that they're not on their own and that's why i speak out now as a as a result of that I get targeted as a result of just being a woman in Northern Ireland politics I get targeted um you know someone who was supportive of people having choice and having access to medical procedures in Northern Ireland I get targeted um so what I have said to a number of young women is

to prepare themselves put an armor around themselves, to have that defence mechanism so that when they are hit with something like this, there's very little support that will help you following something like this. It's up to yourself if you want to report it to the police, and to be honest, it's up to yourself if you can actually find any support to deal with that sort of trauma that you get. But I do say to them, put the armour around yourself. Expect to receive horrendous messages and images.

You can get it from anything like what you look like, what you've worn, what you have said, what your teeth are like, what your eyes are like, what your hair colour is. It could be anything and then it gets into the personal nature. you know and does your partner think that you should be doing all this what about your children you're letting them down and then if you've had anything as i've had then they they target in on that so it's quite abusive but i do say to others coming through prepare yourself for that um the best with the best intentions people go into politics to help people. But unfortunately, there's a side of society

that think that it's their right to abuse and be very harmful to politicians, men and women. But with women, it tends to be a very personal attack, one based on usually trauma, usually a grief or, you know, child loss. So it can be quite difficult. Especially, I suppose, in the context of Northern Ireland with the debates that you've talked about there, which, you know, came up in my previous discussion as well. Kelly Armstrong, I hope the next time we talk that we will get a bit more into the politics as well, because I know that's very important to you. And of course, as you say, a big moment for your your particular party but I do appreciate you talking about this this morning and I hope that you've

got the support that you need. Thank you very much. Kelly Armstrong there an MLA for the Alliance Party with some of what she's having to deal with and some other women too in Northern Ireland since those local elections. Now we go to another dispatch from a Ukrainian woman, because our colleague, the producer Kirstie McKenzie, has been working with a group of women from Mariupol who have been recording audio diaries and sending them out of Ukraine since the start of the war. Last week, you may remember, we shared Irina's story with you. And today we're going to hear first from Vera. She fled the city at the outbreak of war. Her parents stayed behind

and she settled for a while in the western city of Rivne. And as the war developed and the situation in her home city deteriorated, she became desperate for news of her family. Here is Vera's story. It's six o'clock on Tuesday, the 8th of March. The headlines this morning, the UN says millions of lives of civilians across Ukraine have been shattered. Today's morning started with the simple routine.

Usually I wake up to air alarm. Now I just call my parents. I have made 11 calls, but still they're out of zone. There is no connection. I can't reach them. Yesterday night I found out the photo of an ambulance and it crashed from the side of the driver. And my father is an ambulance driver. I'm really afraid that something might happen to my parents, and I will find out about it from such a photo.

Russia says it's opening humanitarian corridors out of several besieged cities in Ukraine this morning, but the government there says it's a hollow gesture which will not help the population. Shelling has continued across Ukraine overnight. Since I have come to Rivne, it's been like maybe fifth day or I don't really count. I lost track of days. We go to the bakery every day, almost every day, and we drink coffee and eat something sweet.

It's just like a little bit of support that connects us to our previous normal life. I just want... So that's alarm of possible airstrike, air raid. I'm in a corridor, hiding. We have this air raid. We have it almost every day. Sometimes it's two or three times a day. President Zelensky has accused Russia of mining roads and destroying the buses which were meant to take people to safety.

Nobody will go to my parents and find out whether they are alive. It's not that kind of situation in the city. I cannot ask people to risk their life just to check whether my father is alive. Living without information is scary and terrifying. I don't know what to do. The United Nations head of humanitarian affairs has made an emotional plea for civilians in Ukraine to be protected from the fighting. So today is the 18th of March, and I found out that my parents are still alive. My father, who is an ambulance driver, still goes to work, a true hero. I really want them to know that I think about them all the time, and I still have no direct connection with them. Even if they want to flee the city, they can't.

It really tears me apart and makes me angry on my parents and my friends who did not try to evacuate when we had evacuation trains from Mariupol. Of course, I just want them to be safe and alive. Ukraine's president has warned that it's only a matter of time before a Russian missile hits a NATO member state. Volodymyr Zelensky was speaking after 35 people were killed yesterday. It has been two months since the invasion, maybe even more. Several people died in our house. One man was killed with a missile.

He went to get some water and the shell fell on the market and he was nearby. So he was killed with a part of this missile Ukraine's president has called for comprehensive peace talks with Russia without delay today is the 28th of March and today I managed to develop a film with the photos from Maripol made from the September till February. It's peacefully looking Maripol, a bit sunny somewhere. There is some photos from parties, photos of my friends, photos of me and my partner of our cat in our rented apartment that i have no idea whether it still exists or not but still it hurts to look at these photos as i know that these places are now different i know that there is a new graveyard in this park and i don't know it's really hard to look both at the photos of

destroyed maruple and that peaceful maruple that we had and everything hurts and i don't really know what to do with that we have to find something of course goals to live to and to fulfill but also again to find a new normal right now i'm in berlin it feels so great to feel safe and know that you just can look at the sky and you will not see a rocket there. There is like two separate realities. Yeah, it's really good that still people from Ukraine can find a peaceful place. You cannot be in Ukraine actually and feel safe and feel okay. Recently I came home, I came to Ukraine. I don't really really have a plan I'm just looking for a sign will help me to understand what I want to do and what I need to do for me and my family thank you very much to Vera talking to my, the producer Kirstie McKenzie,

while recording that audio diary for her, and then that coming to us. We wanted to share that with you. Last week, we did speak to Irina, also from Mariupol and now in Berlin, having escaped Ukraine at the start of the war. She told us that her mother and grandmother were trapped in Mariupol and she was desperate to get them out. She sent this update. We have great news.

Yesterday my mother, grandmother and mother-in-law left Mariupol. Now they are in Berdyansk. They are still in danger. It's not a safe place, but they left Mariupol. Now we can call them anytime. So it's great news. It is great news. And it's wonderful to be able to bring you that, of course,

with difficult times ahead. But we also like to stay with the stories. That's the latest from Irina. And talking of grandmothers, your stories of matriarchs still coming in. Just want to share here, my grandmother reads this message. She cared for us all. She demonstrated strength and love in the most brilliant way. She pulled her family up out of poverty.

She managed to train as a nurse and became the breadwinner in her home in the 50s. She drilled into us all never to be dependent on a man. She died in 2019 and me, my sister and mother carried her on our shoulders into her funeral. It felt like the right thing as she had carried us all. Gosh, that's very moving indeed. Thank you very much. And more of those I will read very shortly. But on the afternoon of September the 19th, last year, 2021, Sophia Huang Shixin, excuse me, the Chinese journalist who you may know,

who kickstarted China's Me Too movement, disappeared. She was en route to the airport to catch a flight to the UK. She'd been awarded the Chevening Scholarship by the British government to study gender at the University of Sussex, but she never made it onto the plane. Sophia is among tens of thousands of people in China being rounded up and detained in a wider state crackdown on activists in recent years. She's expected to face trial for state subversion.

Well, BBC Eye journalist Jessie Lau has been investigating what happened to Sophia and you can watch her powerful film, her documentary on BBC iPlayer. Also with me today is the writer and journalist Li Jia Zhang, who lives here in the UK. But if I start with you, Jessie, good morning. Welcome to the programme. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being with us. Could we just hear a bit more about Sophia and how she did kickstart China's Me Too movement? Sure. Huang Xiaoxin, Sophia is probably one of the most iconic feminist journalists and women's rights campaigners in China. When she was first starting out in her career,

she experienced a sexual assault at the hands of a colleague while on a business trip. And that experience drove her to start investigating sexual harassment in Chinese society. And she began by launching this landmark survey, which exposed that over 80% of female journalists had experienced sexual harassment in China. And this survey, in many ways ways kick-started this discussion that encouraged more women to speak out. And when China had its first very high-profile MeToo cases

following the global MeToo movement, she reported on these. And it's quite difficult to articulate how inspiring and amazing that is to be able to do that reporting in China today, where there is this very intense crackdown on freedom of speech. And so in many ways, she's a very inspiring figure to many people in China.

And brave with the risks that go along with that. And as I said, she was about to get on a plane to take up a chance to study here in the UK when she disappeared. Do we know anything about what's happened to her? Yeah, so she was going on the way to the airport with a friend and fellow activist, Wang Jianbing, when they vanished. And it was only about a month after having no news of the pair's whereabouts that friends and family

were, I guess, told that they had been arrested and detained. And since then, they've been held in solitary confinement in conditions known as secret locations in China, which are outside of China's legal system. And then after that, they were transferred to detention centres in Guangzhou, where they're currently still being held, and both are expected to face trial on charges of inciting subversion of state power, which is a very serious allegation, which could lead to years behind bars. Let me bring in the journalist Li Zhezhang, who, as I say, lives here in the UK. Li Zhe, is this a situation that's similar for other feminists in China?

It is. I sometimes find myself struggling to explain to my friends in London that being a feminist, fighting for women's rights can be a dangerous business. The Chinese government and the authorities don't like feminist or feminist movement because they hate organization and they see feminists, they are too difficult to control. They pose a potential to stability. You know, Chinese authorities are obsessed in maintaining stability. And of course, you know, there are others trying to speak out about sexual harassment, domestic violence, gender inequality? And it's, I suppose, as much of who we don't hear about as who we do.

Yeah, one high five there, just to give the example of how it is dangerous, is the arrest of the so-called Feminist Five on March 7th, the day before International Women's Day in 2015, five young Chinese women and many of their friends planned to go out to protest against sexual harassment on the Chinese public transport. But those five feminists were arrested and were detained for more than one month.

And due to international outcry and senior leaders like Hillary Clinton's involvement they were released. Let me just come back to you. Thank you for that Lidia. If I come back to you Jessie because of course people may be thinking of some of our listeners certainly of the tennis star Peng Shui and what happened in terms of her allegations. And then she disappeared and then she reappeared. What's the latest on her and how does that fit into this picture that we're getting of China and what it is to be a woman speaking out?

Yeah, I mean, when we look at the case of Sophia and Peng Shui, it's very much getting at this question of how should global institutions respond when Chinese people are at risk, Chinese scholars, employees, figures. And it's really interesting because when Sophia was first arrested, the University of Sussex and Chevening put out a statement saying they were concerned about her whereabouts. But since then, they haven't published any further public statements. And in an email leaked to the BBC, we found that they had actually warned students and staff

not to discuss her situation. And this is very, it's very shocking in comparison to the case of Peng Shui, which deservedly so, which was very widely covered in international media. And organisations like the Women's Tennis Association spoke out against her case and also suspended very lucrative tournaments in China. And so you could see how that response in many ways

had a direct impact on how her case was treated. And so activists in the UK and friends of Safiya are very much trying to urge the UK government and University of Sussex and Shetvening to do more on her case. I have a statement from the University of Sussex that was given to the BBC. It says that claims that it has remained silent and failed to take responsibility for Safiya are untrue, saying it's issued public statements to journalists. It remains deeply concerned about the safety and whereabouts of its prospective student

and says it's been in regular contact with both the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Chevening. And it added following the advice of the Foreign Office, saying its concern for its prospective student has guided its actions at all times. I mean, you've put this film together and I've said people can watch it on iPlayer. Jessie, are you hoping more people know Sophia's name and know her story? I just think Sophia is such an inspiring figure. And she, Peng Shuai's case was very significant in the MeToo movement. But Sophia's is much more representative of what women in China face today. And she, like you said before, she's one of tens of thousands who have been

detained in recent years, where just for speaking out on issues that are critical to the regime. And it's, I really hope that, you know, people kind of see the work that she's put in and are aware of her situation. Well, it's a very powerful film. I've watched it already. Congratulations on that and putting it together. And thank you for speaking to us today. The BBC journalist Jesse Lau and the writer and journalist Lijia Zhang. While we've been talking throughout the programme, in fact, many of you wanting to tell us and share as a wider group about those who come to mind when I say the word matriarch. Helen says, my thoughts turn to my mother-in-law. This is all off the back of the latest character that Anne-Marie Duff, the actor who was with me at the beginning of the programme, is playing. Helen says, my mother-in-law is also a very good friend who's always got your back.

Mother to 10, grandmother to 31. She not only raised her children who have gone on to lead successful lives, but has been and continues to be instrumental in the life of her grandchildren. Wise, grounded, stoic. You'd always want her on your team. Our WhatsApp group for family chat is in fact called The Matriarch Update. That could be a podcast. I'd subscribe to that.

We could even have it as a corner of women's house. Helen, thank you very much. Also sounds like a formidable woman. If I can, I'll squeeze a few more in. But let me tell you about a woman that you may not know the name of, but you might like to have a look around her home. On Saturday, Marble Hill, a beautiful Palladian villa, will open to the public, restored by English Heritage. It was built in the 1720s for Henrietta Howard. Anne Evis is the curatorial director at English Heritage and has overseen the interpretation of Marble Hill.

Who is Henrietta Howard, Anna, Countess of Suffolk? And it's also put Mistress of King George II. Is that the right way to introduce her? Well, I don't think it is quite the right way, but she's a very interesting woman. And as you said, Marble Hill is a beautiful neoclassical house near the river in Twickenham. And it's a really, really lovely place to go and spend some time. And I hope people will feel they can go there from Saturday.

But it's also testament to the remarkable journey made by this woman, who 10 years before she started building the house in 1724, had been living in one room in Beak Street with a husband who had drunk and gambled all her money and was very abusive. She'd started off life in being born into a wealthy family, but was orphaned as a child and then made this disastrous marriage to Charles Howard. And as he spent all her money, and as she later said to him, you made marriage an instrument of cruelty. So by 1714, she was on her uppers, and she had no options, really. Her husband was a washout. And she pulled herself together, and she made herself indispensable

to the new Hanoverian court. Queen Anne had died, George I came to the throne and Henrietta got herself a position as a lady of the bedchamber to Princess Caroline and she then did become Caroline's husband's mistress. The court, protected her from poverty, it gave her somewhere to live, and it also enabled her to begin a journey of separation from her husband, and that's really interesting. She made a lot of friends at court, she was very popular, she had a gift for friendship, managed to avoid the kind of, you know, the bitchy quarrels and so on. She was a neutral sort of person. But importantly, in 1723, George II, he was by then on the throne, gave her a gift of stocks and shares and money,

which was put into a trust to be off limits for her husband so it was stipulated by the king that Charles Howard should not get his hands on this money and this meant that Henrietta could begin at last building herself a home a retreat from the court from London from her husband at Marble Hill and it was a new build it was highly fashionable in the latest style she was insisted in the design by all sorts of artists and writers and cultural people she'd met at court and a few years later she was actually able to secure a formal separation from Charles Howard again quite an unusual thing very Very unusual. And I know just also that she had a hearing impairment and that's also informed some of the work that you've

done to bring to life her world in this house. That's right. So by the age of 30, she had suffered some loss of hearing. And in fact, she spent the rest of her life going through some really quite traumatic operations and procedures to try and mitigate that and when we were restoring the house which we very much wanted to do to give an impression of her home and her personality we worked with members of the deaf community to try and understand better what her experiences would have been and they worked with us on the production of a soundscape, which has sort of noise coming and going to give a sense of that partial experience of hearing. Visitors can hear that soundscape in a replica ear trumpet that we had made in her bedroom.

But we also worked actually on the project with women who themselves have experienced domestic abuse. So because this place was so much a refuge and a retreat for her that was something we wanted to offer to women who today are going through similar experiences so we worked with local women's groups and a wonderful nature charity to offer groups of women workshops at the site to enjoy the nature in the woodland and to experience relaxation and art projects as a way I think of just of offering something to the community and it is very much a community site the house is actually in a public park okay free to enter the house is free to enter it's a very much loved park and as part

of the project we have restored her garden. So we were able in, we discovered a survey done in 1748 which marks every single tree and shrub that she had in her garden and we've restored the the old pathways we've restored her grotto and her nine-pin bowling alley and she was a very convivial this woman sounds like she knew how to entertain i'm talking about 1700s a nice bowling alley as well excellent work well it's uh it certainly sounds like it's been a labor of love and something you hope will will be appreciated and working with the community and having women at the heart of it. Anna Evis, thank you very much for taking us into the life of Henrietta Howard, which you can go and have a snoop around where she lived at Marble Hill. Thank you for your company and stories today. Back tomorrow at 10.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi there. I'm just popping up to let you know about another Radio 4 podcast that you may be interested in, especially if, like me, your social media feeds are constantly bombarding you with adverts that are hyping up the latest wonder products, promising you the world. You know the ones. Personalised vitamin plans to make you healthier. A pair of sustainable jeans to make you the world. You know the ones. Personalised vitamin plans to make you healthier.

A pair of sustainable jeans to make you greener. NFTs to earn you millions. I am on a mission to find out the facts behind the fads. I'm Greg Foote, and my BBC Radio 4 podcast, Sliced Bread, is back to ask if another batch of these wonder products really are the best things since sliced bread. If you'd like to know about manuka honey or mosquito repellent or mindfulness apps, or if you've got something you'd like me to investigate for you,

just go search for sliced bread on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.