Woman's Hour - Actor Anya Taylor-Joy, Rosie Duffield MP, Amber Heard and Johnny Depp, Celia Paul and Gwen John

Episode Date: April 12, 2022

The debate over sex and gender filters through to many areas of our lives today whether its about women-only spaces, trans athletes competing in sporting events or our use of language to define what a woman is. It’s now being put centre stage of the local elections next month by a new campaign called "Respect my Sex if you want my X”. The campaign run by Women Uniting UK is urging voters – both men and women - to quiz prospective candidates canvassing on the doorstep with questions like “What is a woman?” or “What is more important, sex or gender?” The Labour MP Rosie Duffield talks about her support for the group and why she believes the issue could have an impact next month as well as on the wider political landscape. The sequel to Johnny Depp and ex-wife Amber Heard's bitter legal battle is coming to America. - Virginia to be more precise. After losing the first round - a libel trial set in the UK - Depp, is suing Heard, for $50m (£38m) over a piece she wrote in The Washington Post in which she claimed to be a victim of domestic abuse. She is suing back, with a $100m counterclaim against him. His legal team successfully argued that the trial should be held in Virginia - home to two Washington Post offices and where the paper is physically published. It's expected to last up to seven weeks and will in many ways be a rerun of the London trial, exposing lurid details about their relationship, with accusations of abuse aimed at both sides. BBC Media and Arts Correspondent, David Sillito joins Woman's Hour standing outside Fairfax County Circuit Court in Virginia. Anya Taylor-Joy's decision to leave school at 16 to pursue a career in acting has certainly paid off. In 2020, in the first month of its release – a staggering sixty-two million households watched her play chess prodigy Beth Harmon in the Netflix mini-series 'The Queen’s Gambit'. More recently, you may have seen her play Gina Gray in the final series of 'Peaky Blinders'. She discusses her latest film – The Northman - a brutal and bloody viking revenge epic.The artist Celia Paul currently has an exhibition at the Victoria Miro Gallery in London, called Memory and Desire, and her latest book is called “Letters to Gwen John”. Gwen John was a Welsh artist who worked in France for most of her career. Her brother Augustus John was more famous during her lifetime, but her beautiful paintings, mainly of female sitters, often reading in domestic settings, have gained wider attention since her death. Celia Paul shares much in common with Gwen John: both studied at the Slade, and both were models and lovers of older artists - Gwen had a relationship with Auguste Rodin and Celia with Lucian Freud. Celia joins Emma.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Rosie Duffield Interviewed Guest: David Sillito Interviewed Guest: Anya Taylor-Joy Interviewed Guest: Celia Paul

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now most of the newspapers and a lot of social media is awash with photos from a boozy Sunday lunch hosted by J.K. Rowling this weekend just gone. The Harry Potter author brought together a particular group of feminists and activists as a new campaign is launched called Respect My Sex ahead of the local elections. The women at the lunch, which included Professor Kathleen Stock, who resigned from Sussex University after a campaign against her views on gender and sex, and also the campaigner Maya Forstater, who won, I'm sure some of you will remember, the first part of a case which means that gender critical views are a protected belief under the Equality Act, are united over what they think defines a woman

in a time when women's and trans rights are being debated. Well, today I'm joined by someone else who was at that lunch, the Labour MP Rosie Duffield, who has come into conflict with her own party's policies on this issue. The local elections are coming up, of course, on May 5th, and this new cross-party campaign called Respect My Sex If You Want My Ex, set up by women's rights groups, is urging you, as voters, to ask several key questions, the top being, what is a woman? Followed by, what is more important, sex or gender?

Followed by asking a candidate, as and when you may meet them, if you do, if they support single-sex spaces. Are those questions any of the ones that you would ask a local candidate? That's what I wanted to ask you today, a question about a set of questions. Do you care? Is that top of mind? Let's say a local candidate of any party comes to your door or you manage to speak to them, I don't know, at a Hustings or in the local area where you are, is this what's going to come up? Or is it more about the bins, dog poo, local transport links,

the roads, the cost of everything in your life at the moment? Or if you do care about this, are you going to go there? Are you going to ask local candidates for their definition of a woman? Or if you are interested in this area, would the question perhaps be different? Be about maybe their take on inclusion and trans rights? What are your thoughts on this campaign as the local elections come? And where are you with the types of questions you would ask? You may think I'm not going to see anyone. I don't even know how to get involved in this. But I want to hear if you are going to and if you are able to,

what are the questions top of mind? Very interested to get your take on this. You can text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. A bit of democracy in action, as it were, right now on Women's Hour. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Or email me those questions that you do want to ask through our website. Also on today's programme, the actor Anya Taylor-Joy, who you might know as Beth Harmon from the chess series on Netflix, The Queen's Gambit. Well, she's now starring in extremely bloody Viking epic, The Northman. More about that to come. I'll also be joined by the artist Celia Paul and be asking her why she's written a book of letters to a fellow artist who cannot reply. And we'll have the latest on the court battle between

Amber Heard and Johnny Depp. But first to Rosie Duffield. The Labour MPs just joined me in the studio. She was at that lunch this weekend hosted by JK Rowling. A brief scan of her Twitter feed shows her having retweeted a photo of her and the author together, with the caption from JK Rowling beneath it saying, Two ex-single mums now united for women's rights. Rosie is a Labour MP for Canterbury. She came to prominence with her views over gender and sex in 2020 on Twitter, when she posted in reply to Piers Morgan, no less, a question,

I'm a transphobe for knowing that only women have a cervix, question mark. Well, fast forward a year, she didn't feel she was able to attend her own party conference after death threats and abuse on the matter. And when her party leader, Sir Keir Starmer, was asked about the issue, he said it was wrong to say, quote, only women have a cervix. Rosie Duffield, good morning. Hi Emma. Those pictures, let's start there. There's this lunch that's gone on at the weekend, I believe on Sunday, a delayed Christmas lunch at quite a gathering of a particular group of women. What was that like?

It was great fun. I mean, we've all been in contact for the last couple of years anyway and met in sort of different groups or singly, but we haven't all been able to come together. So it was really good fun to be able to do that. And the purpose of it? Just to say hello to each other and to celebrate that we've got a great friendship,

that we're supporting each other, what we've been through and to discuss this campaign and other things like that really. And also of course the sharing, I mean it could have been a private lunch, it obviously was a private lunch but it's been quite striking on the sharing of the images from it you you are a group of women who have lived and breathed I think it's safe to

say social media sharing using that space to share views yeah what do you think that that message is to send that image out um I was really hesitant about doing that because I just thought you know we all know the kind of abuse that we could have got and perhaps have been getting I don't know I haven't been seeing that um but I think the attitude at the end of the day was sod it let's let's do this and let's just announce that we're sort of friends no matter what that we're still able to laugh and have fun we're just a group of ordinary women meeting up and doing what we do talking about the things that matter to us. Were your particular group of women, I suppose, united over some of these views that I was just outlining, rather than randomly select it? It would be a fair way of putting it.

And when you say you were hesitant about sharing those sorts of images, was it a decision amongst the group? Because JK's been posting a lot of them. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't have posted anything unless Jo had, and she obviously decided that that was okay. I think she's been quite vocal on social media in the last few weeks. And, you know, why not? Why not? Why should we? You know, I'm not saying either way. I think this is just what occurred to me, you know, why not? And, you know, we've as politicians, we're so programmed to just accept or assume that we're going to get abuse.

And you hesitate before you make any decision like that. So I'd put it on my Instagram, just a tiny little thing, which has got a small following on my personal Instagram, and left it at that. And then I saw it all over social media. We were all getting calls from journalists all day yesterday asking the story about us. It must have been a slow news day, I guess, about us having lunch. But yeah, I mean, we did that. Well, she's one of our most successful authors. She has taken a stand on this particular issue from her point of view. And it is quite a group of, it's a very accomplished group of women and also women who've been activists, I suppose, in the space for a long time. It's not necessarily

a slow news day. It's quite an image. Yeah, yeah, I understand people's interest. And, you know, but we were in that space, just ordinary women talking about the things that matter to us. And we're getting some messages in coming in right now about what people do care about with regards to the local elections coming up. And I wondered, as you are supporting this particular campaign, which I just want to stress at this point, is cross party. And I wondered, as you are supporting this particular campaign, which I just want to stress at this point, is cross party. And I should also say, you know, if you if you need a list of the candidates or anybody available in your area, there's a full list on the BBC website, we're obeying all those rules in a run up to a local election. But what evidence do you have that people do want to ask these sorts of questions of local candidates? I've got personal direct evidence.

So in the general election of 2019, one or possibly sometimes two things came up on the door, Jeremy Corbyn, anti-Semitism, and in my area, Brexit. And the third thing that absolutely knocked me sideways was that I had three or four women stopping me, asking if they could have a private conversation, and what was happening in schools came up. There was one woman who was a teacher, one was a social worker, one was a parent who said, I'm convinced that my child is gay, and yet there seems to be this kind of movement where it isn't OK just to be gay.

That sparked a conversation, that's a different discussion. But I was astonished that they felt they had to ask me in private to talk about these things. And that was before I had said a single solitary word in public or liked to tweet or anything. These were women who wanted to talk to me about that. And I was really surprised. It wasn't tax. It wasn't bins.

It wasn't anything like that. It was this issue. Because, as I said, only two things dominated that election. From your perspective? Yeah. Okay, so there's a message here that's just come straight in. I do not care at all about the definition of a woman. Let people live their lives. Poverty, injustice, climate change, corruption, war, children living in homes that do not have enough money to eat or heat their homes. These are the issues that directly affect women, not a trans woman needing the toilet. That's absolutely right. Some people don't care, you know, in quotes about it.

But an awful lot of women do. We can care about all those things. As a politician, that's what I do every single day. You know, in one day, we'll be covering fuel poverty, Ukrainian refugees and women's rights. You know, we can do all of those things at the same time. In terms of your party's position on these questions, what is a woman according to Labour? That's a bit confusing, isn't it? I think it depends. Well, you're a Labour MP.

Well, I know what I think a woman is, which is a biological human adult female. Using the dictionary definition? Yeah. I'm asking that, of course, because the thing that sort of said a lot of things in train after my interview on International Women's Day with the shadow women's minister, Anneliese Dodds, who was on the programme. I asked her about this and I've got a range of quotes that sort of came after that interview. But when I asked her, she said there were different definitions legally, and that it depends on what the context is, surely. Your chair of Labour's Women's Parliamentary Labour Party, I believe still. What is the actual line from the party on this? I think it's been really unclear, I have to be honest. And I think now that I've heard Keir say

that it is an adult human female, and I think Annalisa has since been clearer herself on that but I mean I'm an adult human female I don't necessarily need my party to have a line on it that you know I'm an MP in that party and that's what I think. You do need them to have a line you've just said you support a campaign where you want people to take some of the valuable time they've got with a local candidate and ask them this question. I would like them to have that very clear, simple, straightforward answer. I think most people, most women, just appreciate that kind of straightforward honesty rather than all this umming and ahhing. So there isn't a line, you would say, at the moment from the party? I don't know. I'm not in the sort of inner circle of the front bench or the shadow cabinet. I don't know if there is

a line. I'm not someone who is a backbencher reads the lines particularly but that's my line no but you are the chair of if i was chair of labour i mean i have asked the question yeah i've asked the question a few times it seems to be a bit confused there's always a sort of slight uh quantifying of that answer and i would just like it to be more straightforward and in terms of Labour's official position around the Gender Recognition Act, that it needs to be reformed is the position, but that also single sex spaces need to be protected. What is the issue with those two positions existing alongside each other?

There are questions on, I think Kirstama and Annalisa have said that they want to make it easier for people who transition to self ID and also make sure that they reinforce their protection of single sex spaces and there is a biting point there where we do have to talk about both those things and how they can coexist. And do you have faith in the party that you're in to be able to do that? I think we're getting there. The conversations are getting easier and I think they're starting to listen. But it's a bit of a shame that it's taken so long and that hasn't been so clear from the beginning and that various groups haven't been heard or listened to. Who've been trying to talk about this to the party and within the party for at least three years? OK, because I suppose when I'm looking through

what people have said recently from your party, Keir Starmer has recently refused to answer when asked, can a woman have a penis? Yvette Cooper's refused three times. Of course, a member of the Shadow Cabinet refused three times to define what a woman is and said she's not going to go down a rabbit hole in it. I've quoted what Annalise Dodds said on this exact programme. It does not sound like it is any clearer.

That doesn't sound great, does it? I mean, I understand why individual people may not want to enter this arena because it is scary and we do get abuse. But as a party... Why is it scary? I think because whatever you say as a woman politician, well, as a politician, you're kind of torn apart anyway. But this particular issue has been really contentious and there's a lot of hurt attached on both sides, a lot of very high emotion and feeling.

Lots of people who are very invested in it get very upset if you accidentally offend them or offend them by not thinking about how you're speaking. But I wouldn't call it a rabbit hole. And, you know, my point of view is, of course, a woman can't have a penis. In that position, though, and in talking about that, you talk about feelings and people being hurt do you understand why some trans people trans women in particular over recent days where the prime minister has come out very clearly with his views for instance saying about biological males shouldn't be able to play in female categories of sport there's also been a double u-turn from

the government with regards to conversion therapy, leaving trans people available essentially to that therapy. Do you understand why some of those individuals do feel like there has been a change in mood and an attack? Yeah, of course they do. They have to really listen to what we're saying. Nobody I know or have met in this movement or in my party wants to leave trans rights you know on a bonfire or hurt trans people or make them disadvantaged absolutely no way imagine going through that I can't I could say that you probably can't as well it must be horrendous and scary incredibly courageous to go through the public decision to change gender. I can't imagine how hard that is. But at the same time, what I came to politics to do was to protect women's rights,

to speak about women's rights, to not shy away from speaking about women's rights. And that's my area of expertise, if you like. And I think the two can coexist. We just have to be able to have those conversations. I suppose it's also about the tone of it and it being respectful. I mean, I was just looking back at some of your activity on Twitter and you were investigated by party officials after liking a tweet by a US rapper. Is that right? Curtis Tripp. The tweet said trans people are mostly heterosexuals cosplaying as the opposite sex and as gay. I think that was really unfortunate. I probably shouldn't have liked that aspect of the tweet.

That's not really what I was liking. He was just yet another gay man that I'm connected to on Twitter who said that they found the term queer deeply offensive. And, you know, I'm 50. A lot of people my age who I grew up with, went to pride with, who are called the word queer, I find it even hard saying it actually, find that really debasing really um insulting it was spat in their faces and I can absolutely empathize with not

everyone embracing that word it's again I mean there's so many divides on this this is an age thing partly isn't it you know newer you know younger people newer to this discussion on rights are probably embracing those words but to people my age it's still an insult and it's still deeply hurtful. And I think that's what Curtis meant. So I didn't mean to cause offence by liking that tweet, but I was agreeing with him that it isn't necessarily that straightforward. A message here, I absolutely do care about the issue of single sex spaces. I will be asking any candidate who knocks at my door,

if we cannot name our sex, how can we organise and provide services for those who need them everything else comes from that says polly another one here my name is philippa rosie is my mp i have no cervix i had a full hysterectomy five years ago i want to ask why protection of women's spaces excludes trans women who are more at risk of violence or murder than any category they They need to feel safe too. Surely her wish is to protect women's spaces, is to exclude violent, dangerous men. Why is the fear and the hatred projected in this way? Why is the fear and hatred projected onto one of the most persecuted,

othered groups? What would you say to that? She's absolutely right. We want to protect that group of people and so do I can't we have laws against rape because the definition of rape is really that there's one thing that's used as a weapon in rape and that is penises not every man is a rapist but we have to have those laws and not every biologically intact trans person in fact very few of them I would imagine are going to wish to harm females but we have to protect people we have to have these conversations we're not ready to kind of decide that yet i don't think we've gone from naught to 60 in a millisecond via social

media we have to be able to have those conversations and raise those fears without being called prejudiced or cancelled just for asking the questions i don't know enough about this area none of us do yet we have to be able to talk about it. And yet there's nervousness about talking about it. Yes. Yeah. Because of being cancelled and labelled. Are you nervous talking about it now? Yes, completely. Yeah, I'm always nervous about talking about it. Because there's been personal cost?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm, you know, slightly persona non grata within my own party. I know that I've been considered an embarrassment to the party by talking about it. And they would much rather I didn't, you know, but I'm not going to because I didn't come here to necessarily just spout the Labour Party lines. I have thousands and thousands of women contacting me and men who are really concerned that we can't just have this conversation. That's what it's about. You've been called and other sex post rights campaigners have been branded dinosaurs by colleagues in your party. That was the comedy gift that keeps on giving. I mean, you know, David Lammy is a friend

and I don't think he saw that coming at all. But, you know, I've been sent lots of dinosaur brooches and badges and people dressing up as dinosaurs. And I've got a T-shirt of me and Joe Rowling dressed as dinosaurs. You know, I don't think it was meant the way it came across. But persona non grata in your own party, you're still chair of Labour's Women's Parliamentary Party and you don't seem to agree with what your leader's saying.

You seem to agree with what Boris Johnson is saying. I think Boris was really clear. He was asked a question in PMQs a couple of Wednesdays ago and he's obviously been really thinking about and reading about this issue. Or weaponising the culture war. Well, maybe he is weaponising it, but then why have the Labour Party allowed it to be weaponised?

I don't know. That's your strategy. You keep losing elections. It's not my strategy. I'm not involved in the strategy. I'm just a mere backbencher. But, you know, I think i did try and warn the party that this was coming and i think the feeling was that it was a niche issue that it would go away why it hasn't gone away well somehow i'm also saying this is an incredibly niche issue it's not to the thousands of women that contact me but i also we have millions of listeners and i also have to respond i mean i got a message the other day saying that somebody didn't even

understand one of my interviews that i've done on this because they can't follow some of the lingo. You know, there's a lot that people have to get their heads around. Why are you still an MP for the Labour Party? I believe in the Labour Party as a movement. It's never just about the state. You've just denigrated the previous leader. And you also don't agree with this leader on what you say is one of the most important issues at the moment that isn't a niche issue so why are you staying in a movement that has made you a person you know somebody that's not somebody who's respected or valued i think

it's not just a party or a movement for the few at the top it is the biggest party on the left in western europe it's something like 500,000 members. I'm here to represent my constituents and the members that I know are really engaged in this issue. That's women councillors, people who signed what we call the Labour Women's Declaration, which is a group within the party of thousands of women. I understand all of that, that it's big, right? But you're standing there under a banner, under a leader, who won't say if a woman can have a penis or not.

And you are at odds with that position. Yeah. Well, there are lots of women like me within the party, councillors, members and some MPs who agree with me. So we're hoping to shift the position, I suppose. So you would never join? You would never resign from the Labour Party over this? I have to be honest that I've thought about it. I'm not in that space yet. If a woman like me, who's a single mum, on the tax credits created by the last Labour government, is beginning to doubt my allegiance to the party, and I am a typical Labour voter, then I think probably the Labour Party need to listen to that.

But you've been doubting it for some time. I suppose that's what I'm saying. And if there was a moment to go to the Conservatives, it's now on this issue. There are lots of issues for me personally that mean I couldn't just join the Conservative Party. Immigration, Brexit. All right. Any other party then? Have you thought about it? There are no other parties that appeal to me in that sense. And if you look at all political parties, the main ones have a huge broad church of views. And that's great. You know, I'm not the only Labour MP who feels like I do about this issue. I suppose where and my experience of talking to MPs and talking to those who work in politics is that where sometimes listeners don't understand and the public have asked a lot of questions I've seen over the years is when they hear an MP come on who does not agree with their party and their party line does not agree with their leader of their party on the issue that they say they care and are campaigning on are most vocal about and yet they continue to stay a member

of that party yeah why not do the brave thing and resign the Labour Party right here right now on Woman's Hour. I absolutely completely understand that point of view. I had similar over anti-Semitism, which dominated from the day I was elected to the 2019 election and a bit beyond. And people used to say to our Jewish women MPs, why are you still in the Labour Party? There are lots of personal reasons. Everyone has to answer to themselves as well as their constituents and their local party. But for me, I don't believe the conversation has ended. I think it's just started. I think there is a shift.

I'm hoping to be part of that conversation changing. I know there are plenty of women in the party who think that this is still the party for them. We just need to change on that. I've seen a change over antisemitism. If I hadn't, I'd have been out of the door. You saw a change. The electorate didn't go for Jeremy Corbyn.

No, they didn't. And we absolutely deserved that on that issue. It won't necessarily be about just about that issue of course it may have also just liked what the Conservatives and Boris Johnson but the point is you didn't affect that change I suppose I'm saying with the experience of what happened with Jeremy Corbyn from your

perspective you didn't affect that change he ran in two elections and it was the public that dealt with that from that perspective and I suppose how confident are you, just as our time comes to a close, how confident are you that you can change the Labour position to get it to a place where it can make the definition of a woman as you see it? I'm quite confident that the groups within the party are now starting to be heard and

listened to. I don't know whether I will be personally, but I'm going to keep trying and keep fighting. At the end of the day, I have to keep checking myself if it's the right thing to still do. One day the answer might be different. What would be that day? Have you got a kind of thing in your mind? I think it partly depends on the policies we go forward with into the next election, actually, and the lines that we're told to say. If I absolutely fundamentally disagree with them, I'll have to be honest and say so. Do you still like politics?

I love politics. My everyday job is brilliant, is what I always wanted it to be. I think it's always good to check in with MPs on that point because, as you say, you have the campaigns that you go for and there are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes because of that. And you yourself have talked about some of the abuse and the threats.

I know you've talked at length about that. So today was a bit more of a chance to hear about some of the policy side and the ideas behind it. Rosie Duffield, thank you very much. Labour MP there for Canterbury. A lot of you also, I should say, still getting in touch with us. We had messages only yesterday

over an interview I conducted last week with the trans academic and author Grace Lavery, who it's safe to say does have pretty different views to Rosie Duffield that you've just been hearing. That interview, if you missed it, you can hear on BBC Sound. And, of course, just because we've talked about the local elections happening on the 5th of May, England, Scotland and Wales. Of course, while in Northern Ireland,

voters will elect members to the Northern Ireland Assembly. You can find more information about the candidates standing in your area on the BBC News website. Now, the sequel to Johnny Depp and ex-wife Amber Heard's bitter legal battle, if we can call it that, is coming to America, Virginia to be more precise. After losing the first round, a libel trial set in the UK, Depp is suing Heard for 50 million dollars, 38 million pounds, over a piece she wrote in the Washington Post in which she claimed to be a victim of domestic abuse.

She is suing back with a $100 million counterclaim against him. His legal team successfully argued that the trial should be held in Virginia, home to two Washington Post offices where the paper is physically published. It's expected to last up to six weeks and in some ways will be a rerun of the London trial, exposing many details about their relationship with accusations of abuse aimed at both sides well joining me now standing outside fairfax county circuit court in virginia is the bbc media and arts correspondent david silito david good morning good morning to you um how did we get how did we get here? Go on, tell us. The court case that took place in London, and I think it's easy to forget, was not a court case between Amber Heard and Johnny Depp. It was a court case between Johnny Depp and The Sun.

It was an article written by Dan Wootten in which he was described, that is Johnny Depp, as a wife-beater. So the case was a libel trial where Johnny Depp was suing the son. Amber Heard was brought in as their main witness. Now, it was a three-week trial. It was, for both sides, you can only say, excruciating in the level of detail it revealed about their private lives. Their, without doubt, very turbulent and unhappy marriage that they had. But there were 14 separate allegations in Maiding Court of assaults and abuse. The judge listened in all of that detail and there was a very long judgment made at the end.

And he said that he believed 12 out of those 14 allegations. He said the view that Johnny Depp was a wife-beater was substantially true. So that was a major defeat. He was removed from the film Fantastic Beasts, but, you know, he still has work. I mean, it's not the end of his career. And what I think is quite interesting is that I'm standing in front of a court building today,

and we've been here since about quarter past four this morning, and we were not the first people in line for the court. There is quite a large number of fans here, people who are supporters of johnny depp there are very few people here supporting amber heard so he has his core group of fans who are committed that somehow an injustice was somehow committed in london and they believe that here he will with a jury be vindicated that this will be a chance to clear his reputation. So this is what it's about.

What's interesting, when you chat to the libel lawyers, is of course that the libel laws in America are rather different than they are in Britain. And it is a rather tougher hill to climb. In the UK, essentially, you have to prove a story is true. Here, it's pretty much the other way around. The burden of proof is in the uk essentially you have to prove a story is true here it's pretty much the other way around the burden of proof in the other direction so it's a pretty tough hill to climb and of course there are sort of greater protections for speech in in newspapers um so this is one of the reasons why the court case is taking place in virginia there are what are known as anti-slap laws. It's complicated, but essentially it means that if you say something in a newspaper and it's untrue, you have to

prove essentially that you knew it was untrue and you were reckless about the truth. So it's a very high bar for it to actually get to court. Virginia, slightly different laws. So it's got to court. There is a jury in place. And they've been told that, well, maybe they're going to be here for up to seven weeks. So it's going to be a long case to follow. As you say, many details going to come out again. I just thought worth reading out a couple of the sentences from that piece.

She says, I felt the full force of our culture's wrath for women who speak out. This is what Amber Heard wrote. I had the rare vantage point of seeing in real time how institutions protect men accused of abuse, never mentioning her ex-husband or any alleged perpetrator by name. I suppose, as you've stressed, what be striking is is the fact that this is again about libel it's about the media side of things it's not actually about the abuse or alleged abuse there are many there are many questions i mean sitting through the first case in london what struck you was that the allegations, you were amazed that the police and file charges for assault had not been brought at the time.

There had been various interactions with the police on certain times, but it had never reached the court. And the fact that it was essentially a libel case in London where the judgment was being made about whether or not what she said was true seemed unusual. And I think the situation here is, as you say, she did not mention Johnny Depp's name. It was an op-ed about her saying she was a victim of domestic violence and that she has spoken up about other people speaking up about it. And she's now facing a well, he has a team of very expensive lawyers and they are going to go through once again, hour by hour, minute by minute, everything that she has said over the years about her marriage. So it is going to be, for both sides, uncomfortable, but certainly it is her story that is going to be torn apart in court over these next seven weeks. And just finally, 120 people approximately on the potential witness list, including some high profile names, Davidid um yes some very famous names um

the people of course that they were associating with um many famous friends james franco paul bettany elon musk even makes um an appearance at one point in it um how many of them will actually appear in court is uh well yet to be decided a few of them we understand may have made already a uh made their testimony made their witness statements but certainly it is going to be televised by court tv so what's very different here is that people will be able to see and hear the evidence for themselves. And also there is a jury involved in this. So it could be a different outcome based on... Johnny Depp certainly believes that Amber Heard committed a hoax and he wants the world to know it.

And part of this about it is the public nature of this so um there's been a lot of discussion about these anti-slap laws which is essentially the issue in which very rich very powerful people can bring litigation against people and because both sides have to pay in libel in the US. Even if you win, you'll still face the costs. A lot of people just fold and say, I'm not going to go any further with this. And here, well, they are going ahead with it. So it's going to be fascinating to watch, but definitely very, very uncomfortable. David Sillito, the BBC media and arts correspondent, reporting to us live outside that court, Fairfax County Circuit Court in Virginia, where that battle between Amber Heard and Johnny Depp is going ahead

because she didn't fold, she's carrying on, I suppose, with it. That's one way of putting it. And also, as was mentioned, can be very distressing and I'm sure very upsetting for a lot of people to see some of the details and hear about what both sides allege went on in that relationship. Now, Anya Taylor-Joy's decision to leave school at 16 to pursue a career in acting has certainly paid off. In 2020, in the first month of its release, a staggering 62 million households watched her play chess prodigy Beth Harmon in the Netflix miniseries The Queen's Gambit. I still need to watch that, I'm going to confess. I do really want to see it as a keen chess player.

But more recently, you may have seen her play Gina Gray in the final series of Peaky Blinders. She's also starred in many films, of course, from The Witch to Jane Austen's Emma. But her latest, The Northman, is a brutal and bloody Viking epic that follows a young prince on his quest to avenge his father's murder. Anya plays Olga of the Birch Forest. Just to give you a flavour, here's a clip from the trailer. Why would he stow away to such a hellish place? To find what was stolen from me. And what is that?

The kingdom. John! You must choose between kindness for your kin or hate for your enemies. Their strength breaks man's bones. I have the cunning to break their minds. It's directed by Robert Eggers, no shortage of drama. It stars Alexander Skarsgård, Nicole Kidman, Bjork

and a good friend of Anya Taylor-Joy's Kate Dickey who you'll hear referred to in this conversation. I did catch up with Anya Taylor-Joy a few days ago and I wanted to know what attracted her to this extremely bloody film. I read the script and it just felt so epic

and I hadn't read something like that ever. You know, it feels like that kind of epic filmmaking had a moment and then has semi-disappeared a little bit and I was really excited by the prospect of doing all of it for real because I knew that that's how Rob does it. You know, everything that I was reading was something that we were actually going to go and do in real life with no green screen. And that was a thrill. In freezing Northern Ireland? Yes, ma'am. Yeah.

I mean, just we'll come to that because I'm a person who's always cold. Many women are. But you seem to be able to do very well in that scenario, not wearing very much and barefoot, it looks like a lot of the time, as would have been, I suppose, the Viking times. But it's a lot of violence, isn't it? A huge amount. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's just it's part of their culture. I think every time I do something, you know, historically based, I'm always amazed at just how difficult it was to stay alive. Like truly, just every day, it was such a struggle to live. And it was quite funny because, you know, my first day,

I wanted to do all of these lyrical things with my delivery. And then you get into the space and you go, ah, yes, it has to be direct and deep and low. Because if you don't get this information across, you're going to die. There's no time to paint a picture with your dialogue. You've got to just kind of get it out. You're playing an enslaved woman, Olga of the Birch Forest. There's a great line where you're saying to Prince Amleth, you have the strength to break men's bones, but I have the courage to break their minds. It's a great line. Did you enjoy saying that?

Yes, very, very much so. Spoken from the heart? Well, absolutely. But I also think you've seen Alex in the movie now. His name is Beowulf. He is a mountain of a man. And I don't think for a second Amleth believes that Olga is anything other than his equal, simply because she is so much smaller compared to him. I really feel that in their relationship and throughout the film, you understand that there's a kind of ebb and flow of power

in terms of how they can help each other. They really are a team and a duo, and they're both playing to each other's strengths. And then out of nowhere, Bjork appears. I mean, that's a gift. How can you make this movie without Bjork? When I saw her, I was like, of course Bjork appears. I mean, that's a gift. How can you make this movie without Bjork? When I saw her, I was like, of course Bjork's there. North mythology, she just appears.

She has to be there. Honestly, it made quite a lot of sense at that moment. What do we say she's playing? What's her role? She's playing an image in his mind? Oh, let's say a guide. And wearing a lot of feathers. There were some amazing visuals on that. Did you have a chance to talk with her about this?

We all spent a lot of time together because this was shot during lockdown. So we all isolated as a little unit. And we felt so lucky that we got to be outside. You know, we'd all spent months inside and months away from people. And suddenly we got to be outside every single day. And that just felt like the biggest gift. I was ecstatic on the set. I loved every second of it. Although cold. No?

Northern Ireland. No shoes. So here's the thing that I find kind of strange. I really enjoy it. I'm not a complainer. I get literally stuck in with everybody. And I see it as my unofficial job to keep everyone's spirits up. Because if the tiny blonde girl is not complaining about being in the ocean for the fourth hour in a row,

you as the big burly stuntman can't really say anything. You know what I mean? It's like I'm assessing or I'm attempting to set a tone of do not get lost in how quote unquote difficult this is right now this is a privilege like let's enjoy this I like it you're also setting the standard right if you're if you're fine everyone's got to be fine I mean I would hope I don't set out with that intention I just I just really enjoy it no but that's wonderful to hear because as I say people haven't seen it yet, but it's hugely physical. It's very gory.

I'm probably, you know, I don't know what your reaction will be to this, but at one point there was so much violence, I actually started laughing. I mean, that's not necessarily the intention, but, you know, you see a lot of naked flesh and a lot of blood and there's almost a sort of gory comedy in that, which is how they live their lives. I have to say, I am seeking always in my life, new experiences and things that surprise me.

And at four o'clock in the morning, walking into the makeup trailer and it being, but just wall to wall filled with the largest naked men I've ever seen in my life, just covered in blood and mud. And I was like, wow, that's a real image for 4am. Like I am not, I am not awake enough to deal with this right now. Great mental image, perfect description for radio. So thank you for that. I believe, is this right, that when you were making this film, which sounds all consuming,

this is when The Queen's Gambit was coming out and, you know, many, many millions of people were watching it. Absolutely. And I feel very lucky that that's kind of how that went down because I was so isolated and so removed from everything that for a while it only existed on my phone. And I think the first time I really realised something was different was I've never been on a set where everyone had seen what I'd just done. So I'm getting mic'd up and they're like, hey, I watched the show. It was great. I was like,

oh, thank you. And then it just kept kind of snowballing. It must have been weird when you went back into the real world, though. And were you suddenly aware of that? Literally dropped into New York, went out for a walk thinking everything was normal and was back in my apartment an hour later being like, not normal. Things are different. We're being chased now. OK, cool. Got to sort this out. And how do you do that? How do you cope, do you think?

What's the strategy? Did anyone give you any advice? Oh, yeah. I've been incredibly lucky with people being very generous with their time and their experience. But I honestly think it's just time because I really am, and I'm not saying this to be, you know, blah or anything like that, but I really didn't get into this job for that side of things. That is something that I'm learning to acclimatise to. And the good news is most people are very, very nice.

One person to one person contact, I adore. It's when it's large groups of people and you suddenly realise, oh, I am one person and I need to try and figure out the situation. But I do think it's just time and then as I deal with everything, I just work. Well, I mean, if you will insist on, I don't know, you know, submerging yourself in lakes in Northern Ireland and finding the mud, you'll have that freedom, I just work. Well, I mean, if you will insist on, I don't know, you know, submerging yourself in lakes in Northern Ireland and finding the mud, you'll have that freedom, I'm sure. But

I was also loving that you like to go clubbing in Berlin on your own at 11 o'clock in the morning. I've not done that, but it sounds awesome. You really have to give it a go. It's the greatest thing when you work this hard. And I'm not saying this like a poor me thing. It's just when you work this hard, you kind give up the night time element of things because you're working really hard you're putting your body through a lot so I loved that I was still able to indulge my form of meditation which is dancing on a Sunday and have it be a wholesome experience. Can you still do it with the fame? A lot of people are super cool. A lot of people are just like, really great to see you.

Have a great time. Like, enjoy this. And then, you know, they kind of leave you alone. So sometimes, yes. And from dancing, is chess now part of the meditation in your life? You know, I had to take a bit of a break from it because I'm so close to Beth that I think if I kept her around in that way, I would never heal from that experience. I know that sounds strange, but you kind of, I need a bit of distance in order to be able to revisit it again,

because otherwise you're just kind of in constant mourning for somebody. And that's quite, quite a heavy place to be in but are you good are you good at chestnut i was i was for a period of time i'm not sure how good i'll be it's it's interesting because you pick up skills depending on what you're doing so for the northman i was really great at cold exposure like really great at that learned a lot read a lot of books i wonder how good i am now i was gonna say i also thought you were gonna say I was really good at mushroom poisoning after the North which was also a skill there the other thing I was just going to ask you about we are talking on Women's Hour is I read that you actually only made friends with those your own age quite recently and it was it was

older as some of the women in your life that you had those strong bonds with and a lot of people can relate to that and how important those older women are. And I wanted to ask you about that. I spent so much of my adolescence feeling very out of place and like there was something very wrong with me. And then it was meeting Kate Dickey and realising, oh, there's not something wrong with me. I'm just, I was living in the wrong world and she and I became so close and we've lived together over the years multiple times and we lived together when we

made this film and I think because I'd gone to an all-girls school and I'd had a rough time there I was slightly afraid of girls my own age and then through me seeing such incredible women that were older, I think it kind of got me over my fear a little bit. And now I have a gorgeous troop of female friends who are just so wonderful and so fierce. It's a different kind of fierceness and loyalty, which I adore. I think that's fascinating because a lot of people will feel like their school experiences were like that as well. And they have benefited from the intergenerational wisdom of those women around them. Absolutely. And I think, I really think it's our, do you see, to share the truth with each other? Like, I'll give you a very brief example, but I remember a friend of mine was

shopping for a wedding dress and she just said, I wish someone had told me that this would be stressful and that I would cry and that my mom would probably drink one glass of champagne, too many rather than just hearing it's going to be beautiful. It's going to be so lovely and sweet and whatever. It's like, we have to share about our experiences because otherwise we're all just staying quiet in a vacuum thing. Was there something wrong with me that this situation didn't go the way that it's been proposed to us and not even from us, from society? I think it's important that we talk about all of these taboo subjects that just have not been communicated about.

Anya, Taylor, Joy and The Northman is in cinemas from Friday the 15th of April. Hopefully you've got a bit of a flavour of some of the blood, gore and love that is in that film. And it certainly will provoke a reaction if you care to sample it. We've provoked a reaction, which is always what we want to do from you today. You've really engaged with my question about the questions you would ask of local candidates in the upcoming local elections. And many of you getting in touch because of this new campaign, Respect My Sex If You Want My Ex, asking for people to ask their local candidates for their definition of a woman

and their view on single sex spaces. Would you do that? Or are there other issues that you are thinking about more? A message here also just saying, I probably wouldn't do this. My questions are about local services. Another one saying I've already met local candidates. My questions are about the environment, the help for those on lower incomes. In addition, women's rights are hugely important to me. So yes, I did ask about sex as a protected characteristic, the Equality Act, natal males in female sport, single sex spaces. Only one candidate was prepared to engage.

She was female and conservative. A message here saying, I do care about the definition of a woman, but it's interesting how there's no debate on the definition of a man. The personal is political, particularly for women. 50% of the population, which is marginalised, abused and raped and murdered and paid less. Why wouldn't we ask our politicians to fully represent us and work for us? On that point, though, to a different point about Rosie Duffield, the Labour MP we were just talking to, Mary says on email, there's a saying, no Pope is going to tell me that I'm not a Catholic. The same thing applies to Rosie Duffield

and the Labour Party. It's her Labour Party, as well as Keir Starmer's. Another one here saying, yes, I would ask my local candidate about this, about this particular issue, especially around protecting women in toilets and changing rooms. But Sautcher on email says, I completely disagree with the views of JK Rowling and the women at that lunch because their language is leading to the attack of my friends. Biological sex is a fact. We cannot ignore this. But this is not the issue. Safety is. I have many trans friends. The ignore this. But this is not the issue. Safety is. I have many trans friends and the main thing they talk about is their daily safety. The constant talk of protecting cis women is what the constant talk is at the moment.

And the discussion with trans women's rights, it's giving the false image that trans women are dangerous when in reality they're one of the most persecuted demographic. And Lara says, I've decided women's rights is my number one political issue. And so they continue to keep those messages coming in. But the artist Celia Paul has written a new book called Letters to Gwen John. Gwen John was a Welsh artist who worked in France for most of her career. Her brother, Augustus John, was the more famous artist during her lifetime. But her beautiful paintings, mainly of female sitters, off of reading in domestic settings, have gained wider attention since her death. Celia Paul shares much in common with Gwen John.

Both studied at the Slade. Their paintings have an atmosphere of serenity, and both were models and lovers of older artists. Gwen had a relationship with Auguste Rodin and Celia with Lucien Freud and Celia joins me now. Good morning. Good morning. Why were you drawn to Gwen and why did you want to write these letters to her? Well it's she's always been very important to me. I've always felt a deep connection to her but what made me want to write this book now was because my husband, who'd been ill for a long time, was dying of cancer throughout the time I was writing this book. And it was a way of kind of addressing Gwen John's chosen solitude, her loneliness. I'm 62 and a lot of the men, you know, a lot of my men friends of a similar age are kind of, who've separated from their wives

or their wives have died, are kind of starting again with new families. And this just isn't an option for women. And somehow Gwen's courage about accepting solitude and being empowered by solitude was something that I was inspired by. I've always painted alone. Me and my husband didn't live together, so I've always valued solitude but um you know he died um last well in March 2021 and it's it's very very different quality of solitude now yes well I'm very sorry about that it was expected. Well, because I know that you also in this book, you talk about

being in your in your 60s. Gwen John, when she was dying at the age of 63, she traveled to Dieppe to try and glimpse the sea for the last time. And but you you say you also feel like you're running out of time. Yes, I think. Well, I think any woman who gets to my age, you know, feels suddenly both a kind of liberation that a lot of kind of duties that you were called upon to do have vanished and you just feel that you need to organise your time more clearly and definitely. You know, you don't need to see people you don't want to see. It's freeing in that way. You also talk about the frustration of how you are sometimes described as an artist in your own right, because a lot of certainly the media about you, and certainly you've written about this, has centred on your relationship with a man, Lucian Freud. Yes. And someone, just to say for those who aren't familiar with your story, you were first together when you were

18 and he was 56. You had a son together. You were together about a decade or so. And then you married someone else, as you said. Yes. But why did you want to talk about that phrase and why did you want to also relay it in this book with regards to Gwen? Well, there are lots of artistic professions where women's role is more clearly defined and more secure, acting, for example, or writing.

But painting is a masculine world, and women painters are defined in relation to male painters. Nothing much has changed in that way. There are women painters who paint like men, and they've admitted to it, you know, big gestural paintings. But there are other women like me and like Gwen, who I think if you saw both of our paintings, you would know instantly that they were painted by women. And... Why?

It's something to do with the interiority, the intensity of the focus and maybe the smallness of the scale. Gwen John's paintings have this incredible power and yet they're, you know, not much bigger than the size of a book. But on a wall, they kind of knock off, you know, knock all the other paintings in a gallery off the walls because they are so powerful. They're so charged and intense and focused. And you know that she had to kind of live a life of intense focus to be able to produce this work. But I think for both of us, our being kind of associated with more powerful, more famous men has actually given us a kind of overshadowing that has perhaps been quite liberating for us. I think we're neither of us public figures, although here I am speaking on the radio, but, you know, by choice, we're solitary. And somehow, we were

both involved with celebrities, really, who had a lot of public attention, and took that kind of attention away from us, so that in some ways ways we were able to quietly get on with our work but the public response is something else that is more difficult to deal with and I was very shocked after Lucian's death that in a lot of the press articles about his death I was just referred to as his muse and it didn't even acknowledge that I was a painter even though I'd dedicated my whole life to it and so I thought I have to actually change this and the only real way of changing anything is by writing about it. Painting is such a kind of oblique art that it doesn't change things in the same way, although it might gradually over time. So part of this book and a previous book was an attempt to do that?

Yes, an attempt to do that, yes. Well, she can't write back. I do like the fact that you end with a handshake to sign off the letters. Why is that? Well, it's how Vincent van Gogh on occasion signed off his letters to his brother Theo. And it stuck in my mind as such a, I don't know, such a companionable. Yes, I really like it. I may borrow it.

I did write a letter by hand last week, but I feel sorry for the recipient because my handwriting is so bad. My left handed scroll. Hopefully they'll be able to read it. You can read this. It's typed. It's called Letters to Gwen John. Celia Paul, lovely to have you in this kind of studio this morning. Thank you for joining us. And thank you to you for your company.

Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. There's a story about Vladimir Putin. When he was a teenager, he saw a film that he became obsessed by. He would watch it, all five hours of it, over and over again. And decades later, he'd say how important it was to the life he chose. It's called The Shield and the Sword, and it tells the story of a Soviet secret agent working at the highest level in the Nazi war machine. The film prompted Putin to join the KGB.

What amazed me, he'd say of the film, was how one man's efforts could achieve what whole armies could not. How one spy could decide the fate of thousands of people. This is the story of a spy who has the fate of tens of millions of people in his hands, told by the men and women who've observed his rise and rise, the Putin experts and the Russia watchers. It's the story of a man who's seen an empire fall and his nation humiliated and who's torn up the global order trying to restore past glory and avenge the slights of the past. I'm Johnny Diamond and from BBC Radio 4,

this is Putin, the story of the man who's changing the world. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.