Woman's Hour - Actor Cate Blanchett on Glenda Jackson, Girlguiding, Decluttering your love life, Aasmah Mir on her childhood memoir

Episode Date: June 16, 2023

The actor Cate Blanchett celebrates the work and life of Glenda Jackson, who died this week. The mothers of Grace O'Malley Kumar and Barnaby Webber spoke about their loved ones at a public vigil in Nottingham. Lisa Squire's daughter Libby was murdered as she walked home from a night out. Did choosing to go public and share her emotions and pain with a wider audience help her deal with her grief?For the first time four British women have reached the quarter-finals of the same WTA (Women's Tennis Association) Tour event. Katie Boulter, Harriet Dart and Jodie Burrage have joined Heather Watson in the women's last eight in the Nottingham Open. Tennis reporter Karthi Gnanasegaram explains the significance. Girlguiding has announced the closures of British Guiding Overseas and all five of its Activity Centres. Guide leader Aimmee Scholfield and Kirsty Patterson, also a leader and spokesperson for the campaign against the moves, explain why they are holding an overnight protest vigil and singalong outside Girlguiding UK headquarters.The radio presenter and broadcaster Aasmah Mir was a teenage introvert and loner. She talks about her memoir ‘A Pebble in the Throat’, which tells the story of her childhood, growing up in the 1970s and 1980s in Glasgow, and traces in parallel the story of her mother’s own life as a young woman In Pakistan in the 1950s before she moved to Scotland. Does the key to our happiness lie in ‘decluttering’ our love life? Inspired by Japanese organising expert Marie Kondo, journalist Lucy Holden has been deleting photos, throwing away clothes and unfollowing social media accounts of her ex-partners. Lucy along with comedian Cally Beaton, a self-proclaimed ‘joyous midlife dater’, discuss the pros and cons of a love life spring clean. Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Dianne McGregor

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Clare MacDonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Dealing with the sudden death of a child in public. You may have seen the incredibly moving pictures of the mothers of Grace O'Malley Kumar and Barnaby Webber and the family of Ian Coates talking about their loved ones at a public vigil in Nottingham's Market Square yesterday. Well today we'll be hearing from Lisa Squire whose daughter Libby was murdered as she walked home from a night out.

The events of the last few days will inevitably bring back the unbearable pain of what she and her family went through and are still going through. But like Grace and Barnaby's parents, she too chose to go public to share her emotions and pain with a wider audience. We'll be asking Lisa whether that has helped her deal with her grief. We're also going to be paying tribute to Glenda Jackson, a titan of acting, of course, and latterly politics, whose death was announced yesterday at the age of 87. She only went into acting after failing her school certificate, which meant she had to start working at the age of 87. She only went into acting after failing her school certificate,

which meant she had to start working at the age of 16. After a hugely successful acting career, she went into politics, was a Labour MP for 23 years. We're going to be hearing from another acting great, Kate Blanchett. And is it time for you to Marie Kondo your love life? Ditch the digital pics, swipe left once and for all. Are you hanging on to a sweater, a letter? And does that misplaced sentimentality mean you are stuck

in the what might have beens and jeopardising the what could be in the future? We're going to hear from two women who have done just that later on the programme. So let us know how you have purged the memory of an ex. Was it a digital detox or just a good old-fashioned bonfire in the back garden? You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Texts are going to be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Women's Hour and you can email us through our website or alternatively send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider. So you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. Terms and conditions can be found on our website.

Now, thousands of people gathered together last night to attend a vigil for those killed in the Nottingham attacks. Grace O'Malley Kumar and Barnaby Weber, both 19 and students at Nottingham University, and Ian Coates, who was 65, were all stabbed to death on Tuesday morning. Families of those killed shared tributes of their loved ones and messages of love conquering hate. Let's hear from Barnaby's mother, Emma Webber. When he was accepted on his place to study here in only August of last year, he was so bloody chuffed.

He loved reading history, but I think actually he loved being part of the cricket team more. To his teammates, I can see you. We thank you for all you have done. And one day we will smile again, but it will take time. Thank you for being here. Thank you for showing your love for our babies. My beautiful baby girl. She wasn't just beautiful on the outside. She was so beautiful on the inside. She was a treasured and adored child.

She wanted to be a doctor. She wanted to have fun. And all they were doing was walking home. They were just walking home after a night out. Say prayers for my baby girl. Sinead O'Malley-Kumar and Emma Webber speaking there. Well, listening to that is Lisa Squire. Her daughter Libby was abducted and murdered

whilst again walking home from a club in a university city of Hull in 2019. Lisa, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Hearing those very public tributes from not only the mothers but the fathers as well, can you understand why they felt the need to do that? Yes, I can. When Libby was missing, the University of Hull had a vigil for Libby and it was really important for me that I went there and you know to actually just to show our thanks to everybody who was looking for her and who was supporting her

while she was missing and again we had a vigil back at home in the village two weeks after she had gone missing and that was really important for me because I knew everybody that came there. So, you know, the overwhelming sort of outpouring of love for her really lifted our spirits and helped us through. And I guess talking, as you can do when you go to these events, talking to other people there, talking to friends, sharing that chaos and misunderstanding and confusion of feelings is good not only for you but for everybody else who's going through a similar thing

yes yes I um it was nice to be able to speak to you know her closest friends and people who knew her um and make sure they were okay because that was really important. Libby would have wanted to make sure her friends were all okay so you know being able to talk to them was quite cathartic really. Yeah it was really helpful. You had two stages clearly as you've just outlined there was a point when she was missing where it was very public and then there was the point at which you found out what had actually happened to her. Did you feel after when you knew that the catastrophic ending to that story that you wanted to retreat was it still important to to keep in the public eye it for me um i became very protective over her memory um I knew that what was going to come out sort of

over the trial period and you know subsequent times was going to be very was going to be very public and Libby was an intensely private person so I knew that she would not like that so once her body had been found it wasn't that I didn't want anybody else being interested, but I became incredibly protective of her. So it's a bit of a double edged sword, really, because you're incredibly grateful to everybody and for what they have done and the support they're still giving you. But I found that period of time much more challenging. Because you are dealing with your grief and that must be incredibly difficult to process that. But also, as you say, wanting to protect your daughter's memory,

but clearly the way in which she died as well, wanting to shine a light on that complete travesty. Yes, yes. It's very, you know, even now, you know, I sit and think, oh, should I be doing this because she wouldn't like it? But I think, no, actually, this is different. This is about learning from what happened to Libby and she would want that. I base everything I do now on what Libby would have wanted. But you are still very, you know, I had a reporter yesterday who wanted some new photographs of her. That doesn't happen because they're mine and that's private and that's you know I do like to retreat back into my oneness with her so to speak yeah it's tricky it's really tricky and every day you have a different emotion and sometimes you can go up and down three or four times in an hour you know you don't know how you're going to feel from one minute to the next

it's incredibly hard. And we have to thank you immensely for doing this interview because here we are, you know, in another incredibly tragic week. I was there in Nottingham myself reporting on it on Tuesday and the enormity of something like that hits you as a journalist as well when you stand witness to something like that. And yet, you must have known your phone was going to ring, that people may be getting in touch with you. Does help uh when talking about it again when such awful things happen yes i mean it's been for nearly four and a half years for us now and um i have got very used to talking about it um i i just i always say you know i'm just a mum from wickham who you know but if someone can listen to something that I say,

it gives them comfort or helps them, then that can only be a good thing. But yeah, you do know every time something sadly happens to a student or a girl walking home that you'll get the phone call to see if you want to talk about it. And it keeps Libby alive by talking to her, talking about her talking about her it keeps her alive so yeah it's it's important when you see those parents and we all watch the pictures and we've just heard from from the tribute yesterday uh they have been thrown together as as two families and I'm talking about the students and of course Ian Coates the caretaker at the local school he's there as well how will they help one another do you think at this time?

By having somebody else who understands how they are feeling we obviously had lots of friends around us and family but nobody actually truly understands how you're feeling unless they've lost a child so I imagine having you know another couple in the same situation will be you know they can pick they have a commonality between them and I think that will be really helpful because you they won't feel so alone you know that they will have someone they'll be able to talk about what happened because as it happened you know when the event happens you talk about it constantly constantly constantly they'll have somebody else who understands that, which I think will be helpful for them. You say you keep your daughter front and centre and think what would she want? And clearly, in recent times, you've brought to the fore the fact that the man

who took her life had been flashing and had flashed her in the lead up to her death. Is that the kind of thing you mean? You think she would want me to speak out about this? Yes, yes. She would want lessons to be learned. I don't like that phrase, but she would. You know, what happened to her should never have happened. You know, he is not normal for men to go and expose themselves on the street. She would want me to be trying to change things, to try and change laws, to do all of that. She would she was a massive advocate of women's rights. And she would be horrified at the fact that, you know, women can't walk home safely on their own.

Well, was horrified at the fact that women can't walk home safely on her on their own so yeah she she'd be I think she'd be quite proud of the work I'm trying to do. And you just said finally Lisa that um every day is a journey and you don't know how you're really going to feel from one minute to the next if you could say anything uh to those families just starting this journey what would you say to them um just what i felt found most helpful was just focusing on on my daughter you know and focus on on their son and daughter um you and don't expect too much you know everybody wants you to be better everybody wants you to be go back to your how you used to be you'll never go back there um I'd love to say it gets easier with time it

doesn't it changes with time and you learn to grow around it um and and you can have a good life again but it's different um and you know I think just take you know if you're able to take it day by day in the very early days I was taking it minute by minute you know and and just you know, I think just take, you know, if you're able to take it day by day. In the very early days, I was taking it minute by minute, you know, and just, you know, focus on the love you've got for your children, because that is the most important thing. Lisa, thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. We really do appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining us. Lisa Squire there, whose daughter Libby Squire was abducted and murdered whilst walking home from a club in Hull in 2019. And if you're affected by anything, you just listen to anything we've discussed, you can find links

to organisations on our website. Now let's move on. For the first time, four British women have reached the quarterfinals of the same WTA, that's the Women's Tennis Association Tour event. They are Katie Balter, Harriet Dart and Jodie Burridge.

They've joined Heather Watson in the women's last eight in the Nottingham Open. I'm joined by our tennis reporter, Cathy Anisitaram. Cathy, welcome. Thank you. This is quite a landmark moment, isn't it? It is the first time, as you mentioned. There are several reasons behind it, though. One is that there are six players now in between the 100 and 200 rankings in the world. And a lot of them are just building on experience. Katie Bolter, you mentioned her.

She's into the quarterfinals at Nottingham for the third time. You get used to the atmosphere and the environment when you do that. There's a team mentality, I think, since Covid. The National Tennis Centre is where they all train together because they had to train somewhere together. Jamie Murray organised a Battle of the Brits tournament and that fostered a really great camaraderie amongst the British players

instead of them just being competitive. And since then, the LTA has made sure there are lots of tournaments at the lower level for UK players so they don't have to travel and spend as much money in order to gain experience. That's all been successful. We've seen that work in Italy. It's now working here. And there's a home crowd. And they're boosted as well by seeing Andy Murray in the men's draw. And so their fans are making a difference to the British players. We must remember,

though, this is a lower level tournament. And at the recent Grand Slam, the French Open, there were no British women in the main draw for the first time since 2009. So it's a stepping stone. We'd like to see it at a higher level as well. We'd also like to see them get through to the semifinals. What's their opposition like? Yeah, well, one of them will get to the semifinals because Katie Bolton and Harriet Dart are playing each other. So that means we will definitely have one British player

in the semifinals tomorrow. Jodie Burridge, well, she has never been to this stage of a quarterfinal in a WTA event before. So that is going to be a little bit of a big step up for her. Heather Watson though, she has had the experience to be here before and she's playing the world number 99 Victoria Golubic. So there

could definitely be a couple of the players getting through to the semi-finals and all of the seeds who are the top players in this tournament have been knocked out already by the quarter final so it's a very open competition and that's what the British tennis players will be thinking. And of course, we're just a couple of weeks out from Wimbledon, so it kind of bodes well that they're all obviously

kind of getting into form at the right time. Yeah, absolutely. And it really does make a big difference to have the home crowd for these players. They enjoy playing in front of a joyous crowd. They're really enjoying the fact that the British players are doing well, and they do spur each other on.

Jodie Burridge mentioned that once a couple of the players had got through to the quarterfinal, she felt very nervous, but then knew she had to make it to the quarterfinals. And that's the same when we get to something like Wimbledon.

As soon as one player does well, the others do try and emulate that. So we could have an all-British final in Nottingham. And Joanna Conta won this title in 2021. She was the former British number one and world number four just before she retired. And there are two British men in the quarterham. And Joanna Conta won this title in 2021. She was the former British number one and world number four just before she retired. And there are two British men in the quarterfinals as well.

Andy Murray playing in Nottingham for the first time in over a decade as well. And it's all available to watch on the BBC Red Button. So I think people are getting quite excited with Wimbledon just two weeks away. Thanks for joining us, Cathy. Our tennis reporter, Cathy Gagnacitaram, on four British women reaching the quarterfinals of a WTA tour event for the very first time, just weeks away from Wimbledon.

Sounds good, doesn't it? Now, here's a question. Do you still have your ex's sweater? What about a box of photos in the attic from a holiday you took to Corfu in 1998? Maybe. The key to our happiness lies in decluttering our love lives. We'd love to hear from you this morning on this one. Keep your texts coming in. We're going to talk this through now. Lucy Holden is a dating columnist at the Evening Standard, certainly thinks so, inspired

by Japanese organising expert Marie Kondo. She's been deleting photos, chucking away clothes and unfollowing social media accounts of her ex-partners. Hello, Lucy. Hi there. And also joining us to discuss the benefits of a love life spring clean is comedian Callie Beaton, a self-proclaimed joyous midlife dater. Callie, hello. Hello, lovely to be here. Yes, and you've done some quite drastic things that we'll get on to. What, in life? Well, just on this topic. We can get on to the rest of it later. Lucy, let's start with you. You wrote an article about this. What made you think this is quite a good idea? I need to Marie Kondo my love life. Well, a couple of things, actually. But the first was meeting a lady called Morag, who was about to turn 65 and told me that for the first time in her life,

she was going through all of her old albums of photo albums, of which she had 30, wanting to clear some space in her house and realizing how many exes were in there. Men called Costas that she toured the Greek islands with in her late teens. She's now been happily married for 40 years to Alan. So he sat next to her and they just binned all of the exes, reliving their memories for a minute and then throwing them away because she thought it was time to declutter. And I suddenly thought I might not have the physical photo albums because I'm 33 and my generation lives on our smartphones. But how many pictures do I have on my iPhone, which I do not need? How did Alan take that?

Alan did very well, by all things considered, I'm told. Just a few memories to go through. Apparently all he wanted to know was whether she'd met him yet in the in the albums. Well, it does beg the question, doesn't it? You're hanging on to these guys. Had we started seeing each other? Let's talk then, Callie, about what you've decided to do. Do you think this is a good idea? I mean, how have you tackled it? Well, I go two ways on this. It depends on the behaviour of the ex. So I do have many things of certain exes, including my kid's dad, including his little child, my kid's half brother, who's quite often in the house. So that's definitely hanging on to part of your exes in a very amicable, blended way. But the ones who I would say have

exhibited very poor behaviour, which is inconvenient when I'm so perfect, clearly, at dating. So a couple of things I've done. One is I now have decided to fine myself if I do any online stalking. So if I have a bit of a delve into seeing what they're up to on Twitter or Facebook, for every stalk, I make myself pay £10 to charity. Right. So this is clearly an issue. Well, it's a bit like not trying to eat cakes. I make myself pay £10 to charity. Right. So this is clearly an issue. It's a bit like not trying to eat cakes. You do so well and then suddenly you eat four.

And so you can do really well with the not looking and then you have a peak. So I find myself for that. I have one person, one particular person, who left me on my birthday and I never saw him again. I had a friend got rid of the entire digital footprint of that person and she expunged him and I think a really good business model would be a break-up concierge service

where you pay someone to do that for you. Don't you think that's... I think that's a brilliant idea. Some people know it's my idea. I think that's brilliant on a serious point because it's quite painful, isn't it? And you don't want to dump you on your birthday. Yeah, he dumped me on my birthday, which is bad, isn't it?

Because you can't get rid of your birthday. No, you can't do that. Yeah, you can't get rid of your birthday. But I do think, and actually, when you think about things you've held on to of your ex, I actually had a wardrobe built in my bedroom for his stuff. And that obviously lives on, the wardrobe. And at first, it's built in. And it had all his stuff and that obviously lives on the wardrobe and at first it's built in and

it had all his shirts and ties in until a friend of mine decided that she would get him to collect them but now I love that wardrobe and I'm definitely not getting rid of that wardrobe because it's a bit sex in the city in my bedroom I've got tons of hanging space so thank you wardrobe man yes thank you wardrobe man Lucy what do you think of this because I know you've spoken to psychologists about if you hang on to all this stuff is it's emotional attachment especially if it's digital and also physical the psychologist you've spoken to said you're not really kind of in the right space to be looking forward if you're constantly looking back yeah they a couple of them said that there was um an idea that we were kind of holding on to past loyalties by keeping everything.

I think that you could argue it was very empowering in that case to keep the wardrobe and reclaim it for your own. But I mean, Morag cut men off camels so she could keep the camel in certain holiday pictures in her albums. I think there's a way to do both. I don't I know. Obviously, you've got the memories and it, I think we all like to think that, you know, the memory of a holiday that you might've had with an ex or, I mean, a child, even more of an extreme example. But, you know, you don't have to kind of

get rid of the memories. It's just about what we want to hold onto. And it's this idea of cluttering. Marie Kondo's whole theory is that if something doesn't bring you joy anymore, you should get rid of it. I think that should count with people as well as possessions. Yes. Let's put that back to you then, Callie, because you might have the guy who chucked you on your birthday.

Was there a nice weekend away in the Peak Districts or something? You know what I mean? Those lovely memories that you have. You don't want to erase all of it, do you? No, you see, I absolutely agree with not dwelling in the past. But I think I love all the things that have happened. There's been a few disasters dating-wise, but a huge amount of what's gone on I feel very joyous about. And I have been single on and off for 20 years. And I love all the people who've been part of that and lots of exes.

I mean, God, it sounds like there have been hundreds. I sound a bit like Morag, don't I? Only I haven't found an Alan or maybe I have but I um but yes I think it's about um I still am friends with lots of my exes and I love all those memories and I love all those photos and I'm so ancient I'm a bit I'm 10 years younger than Morag uh so I have the actual hard copy photos I've yet to find a current Amor who would be willing to sit cutting camels out with me but never say no that's the thing isn't it Lucy on your quest then to sit because I think you are are you currently seeing somebody um just started yeah I think he's

listening he's listening okay so I mean are you at place? Is it sort of press go as far as, you know, he could grab your phone, he could have a look around, have the albums been purged? God, I shouldn't have told you he was listening, should I? You might not have asked me that. I've got rid of most of them. It is hard. I keep all of mine in a hidden, all of my old photos. That's the equivalent of a photo album, I guess, because you don't want to look at that every day. But all of my photos of past good experiences are in a hidden archive in my photo album on my phone, which is largely where people having affairs put photos. But it's also very useful if you feel like you've been having an affair with your own past, maybe um you can stick them there they don't pop up on your phone in that

horrible very disorientating this time last year you were doing this bit which always freaks me out um so yeah all of the numbers are gone um several people are blocked on social media um but yeah there's still there's still a few'm not going to lie, but not a lot. As you said that, I was raising an eyebrow over in Callie's direction in the studio to say, have you done that? Are the phone numbers gone? Are the contacts gone? Because that sounds like something you might need to do. They're gone. The trouble is you can always find them.

They're gone for the ones, so block and delete is your friend if someone treats you badly. Trouble is you can always dive in and see what they're doing but as I said probably 80% of people I've dated of the 700 people I've dated no but 80% I'd say an 80 20 rule are lovely people with whom it just didn't work out and so I've still got their numbers I might still go for a nice platonic stroll in the park with them and if if I've got any of the photos, they're out loud and proud. Nothing's hidden. Take this opportunity then, Callie, if there is Mr. Wright listening to this right now, what are you looking for?

I'm looking for kind, funny, still breathing is good. And yeah, but not funnier than me. Is that right? No, I mean, that's that's pretty to the point yeah tall or small yeah laughs louder at your jokes than his own yes exactly even just out of politeness so but i think things happen when you're least looking don't they so i'm wary of putting out an advert because who knows what's out there already well listen it's been fantastic talking to the both of you thank you so much You started off a very interesting conversation on Woman's Hour today.

Callie Beaton, self-proclaimed joyous midlife dater. Lucy Holden as well, dating columnist at The Evening Standard. So do get in touch with us if you've been purging your love life. Yes, as we said earlier, it could be a good old-fashioned bonfire in the back garden. It could be that digital detox. Maybe you have gone through those photo albums in the back garden it could be that digital detox maybe you have gone through those uh photo albums in the way that morag did do you have an alan sitting at your side or an alice maybe who didn't mind at all uh do texas you can get in touch on 84844 thank you so much

uh both of you uh for coming in it's a it's a lovely lovely lovely discussion you've kicked off there uh now we're going to pay tribute to glenda jackson uh many people from the world of show business and politics have been paying tribute to the two-time oscar-winning actress turned labor mp whose death was announced yesterday at the age of 87. She said she only started acting after failing her school certificate, leaving her no option but to start working on the stage at the age of 16. She gave up a hugely successful acting career, of course, to become a Labour MP for some 23 years, even serving as a junior transport minister in Tony Blair's government. She left the Commons in 2015 and returned to acting later in recent years.

Of course, she played King Lear. Here she is on Woman's Hour, a year after she left the Commons. She was in conversation with Jenny Murray about her return to acting to play King Lear on the stage. I'm not sure whether it was arrogance or hubris or a combination of both. My dear friend Nuria Esper had done it in Spain and I'd gone over to Barcelona to see her. And it was a marvellous production and she was fantastic. And she said, why don't you do it? And I said, don't be ridiculous.

I said, they'd never let me do it in England. I said, a woman playing Lear, not been on a stage for 23 years. Anyway, the Vic wanted me to do something. I didn't want to do the play they wanted me to do. So the idea of Lear was floated and it just came about like that. What was the first day of rehearsal like after 23 years since you'd last done it? Well, oddly enough, it was as though I'd never been away

as far as the other actors were concerned, and that wasn't because we'd all worked together in the past. Some of us had, but that wasn't the thing. But the actual first day was a way of working that I hadn't experienced before inasmuch as Deborah Warner, who directed it, likes to make people read parts other than their own, and that I found quite interesting.

Quite interesting? Not as helpful as perhaps she thought it would be. It's a very physically demanding role, regardless of the age of the actor. What sort of regime did you follow to do eight performances a week? Well, when I knew I was doing it, that was my big worry, that I would not physically be fit enough or that my voice wouldn't last the course. And so I started a process of swimming every day. I went to the local pool. I walked that obligatory half hour. I did as much as I physically could. But in fact, the best gym in the world is a Shakespeare play. I mean, that's what really sort of kicked me into trim.

It is now 18 months since you gave up your seat walked into in 1992. I still think there's a long way to go. What do you make of the state of the Labour Party? You tell me. What is the Labour Party? It's bemusing to me. I mean, I'm a product of that Labour government of 45, which was a transformative government for people, for millions of people like me coming from my background. You know, that social dream which was made a social reality. And that we should be in this situation now, in such a comparatively short space of time, I find bemusing. But this is not limited to this country. This is not an experience only of the Labour Party. It's something that is across very clear message all around the world. You have to take us seriously. And it's up to the political parties to step up Jackson. I've never forgotten something she said at the height of her acting career.

I'm not beautiful, but when a part calls for it, I can assume beauty. And she did. As a Labour MP, she showed her fierce intelligence and social conscience. An incredible woman. Keep those tributes coming in to us. Also, how you've moved on. Have you digitally detoxed um your love life we were talking about that how important it is to do that because our love lives live on in

in perpetuity don't they online these days pam hello pam she's tweeted what a weird idea the relationship may have failed but there must have been some high points and why would i want to junk a photo souvenir of outings, holidays or finding the world's best ice cream shop. Suzanne says it's so important to make space for new people and opportunities after the end of a relationship but it's much harder if we cling to memories of an ex. And another listener says this, I left an abusive marriage afterwards I threw out every single thing related to my ex. Every photo, every gift, every card. I even threw away things he had bought that I actually needed and then bought exactly the same thing new.

Just so it wasn't his. Do keep those texts coming in to us. We love to hear your views on this one. Tell us how you have digitally detoxed your romantic life. We'd love to hear from you. Now, there's probably many of us, myself included, who've been part of the Girlguiding movement at some point, whether as rainbows, brownies or guides. So we wanted to look at why guide leaders have been moved to hold a protest overnight vigil and sing-along outside Girl Guiding UK's headquarters tonight from 6pm to 6am going into Saturday. The Girl Guiding movement has existed for more than 100 years now and, all between the ages of 4 and 18. Recent announcements by the trustees of proposed changes to the movement have alarmed many members who have felt they needed to show their concerns. Listener Amy Schofield is a guide leader.

She has been involved within that movement for more than 30 years since she was a brownie. She started very young indeed. She was aged a six. Now she wrote to us recently voicing her worries at the proposal and asking Women's Hour to look at what's happening. She joined me earlier and I asked her why she contacted us.

So recently Girlguiding has made a couple of very big announcements. We've been told that British Guiding Overseas is going to be closed from September and we've been told that they're selling off all five of our national training and activity centres and that's a massive shock to a lot of Girlguiding leaders and volunteers. Why are those centres so important in your opinion? They're an absolutely fantastic space for girls of all ages to go and be themselves. We have all sorts of activities running there like archery, tree climbing, grass sledging, camping, all of these fantastic things that girls don't get the chance to experience in

a girl-only space anywhere else. They're selling them off. Does that mean somebody else is running them or to your understanding they're going to be lost? We haven't been told anything at this point. We're not sure if they're going to be sold as going concerns. We're not sure if they're going to be sold off for development. At the moment they're saying that it's far too sensitive to release that information but we're just in shock because we have no clue what's going to happen from December onwards. And it sounds as if there's not much information coming out at this stage, but any justification being given? Is it financial? They're saying it's financial. They're saying that the centres have been operating at a loss for about the last 10 years.

And on top of that, they're claiming that only about 10% of the membership have benefited from them. But there's a lot of disquiet about how these figures have been reached and they're not giving us a breakdown at all. I mean, you love the guides. I'm looking at you now in your girl guiding top. You're a leader at First Long Clawson Rainbows, and you're the mother of a rainbow guide as well. What has it given you? I'm also a guide and ranger leader, so I help with three different units of three different groups of ages. It's given me a lot of confidence. One of the big things was that I decided to train as a teacher, partly as a result of all the work I did with teenagers in girl guiding.

But on top of that, it gave me my first camping experience. It gave me my first chance to cook outside. It gave me the experience to light a fire, learn knots, do all of these adventurous things, climb trees, go to climbing walls. I even trained as an archery instructor as part of my queen's guide award i got to do so many fantastic things especially at the activity centres and you've got a young daughter involved as well um what do you see her experiencing and learning in the same way that you did i took her up to glenbrook a couple of weeks ago for a rainbows activity day where they were doing their camp stage two skills builder she got to take down a tent I mean how many four-year-olds get to practice taking down a tent how many organizations

trust a four-year-old to have a go at lighting a fire she was absolutely filthy at the end of the day she was covered in sun cream covered in dirt covered in sticks and grass and when we were there we were just the only two from our unit and we were adopted by a brownie pack and the most amazing thing was that by the end of the day the leaders of that brownie pack were saying you would have thought that she'd known these brownies beforehand and you'd have thought that they'd have known each other forever and there's a sisterhood in guiding that you don't get anywhere else where you can go to these national centres meet girls from all over the country and make friends in a fantastic way. I do remember that. I do remember being a brownie and a guide and just loving that sense of you can be outdoors and do whatever you want and the

camping. It was absolutely wonderful. If you had a message then for the guiding organisation, because they could say, well, this is about shoring it up for the future. You know, this is how we're going to do it for the future by letting go of control of these centres. But what would your message to them be? I'd say that that's the exact problem that they're missing. What we want to do is build future memories for our daughters and for our girls in our units. If we lose these, we lose a huge chunk of the future

and we lose those future memories and those future adventures. There we go. That's Amy Schofield. I'm joined in the studio by Kirsty Patterson, also a guide leader and a spokesperson for the campaign challenging these proposals. Welcome, Kirsty. Good morning. OK, tell us then, you're holding this overnight protest, this vigil tonight. Why? Well, the council AGM, so that's the Girl Guiding Council AGM, is tomorrow morning. And we thought this was the perfect opportunity for us to be able to come and show the strength of feeling. So the trooping of the colour definitely clashes tomorrow morning. We didn't want to encourage anything happening during that so we thought this um solemn silent uh vigil that we're going to hold for adult members this evening

from 6 p.m until 6 a.m um is a good show of our feeling before the AGM and then tomorrow afternoon a much more bright colorful event happening in St James's Park for our young members to come and just sing some songs and be happy and celebrate what we love about Girlguiding and what we love about our training and activity centres. And I can imagine that this is quite rare for Girlguiding to stage this kind of protest. So why do you feel so strongly about it? Yeah, I think I don't know of anything like this ever happening before. I saw somebody posted a message to say that her mum, I think in her 80s, has never attended a protest in her life. And she was getting on a coach and coming down from the northeast to join

the vigil. So that is amazing that we're galvanising people who've never even thought about protesting before. And we're doing it in a way where we want to be really positive. We want to shine our guiding light and show what it is that we love about Girlguiding and how actually the tax, the training and activity centres are integral to that. And also there are two issues that we're campaigning against. And the other one is the closure of British Guiding Overseas and how strongly we feel about that as well. These activity centres, we just heard a little bit from Amy about why she felt they were so important. Why? Why are they this essential

element to what you do? So adventure is really at the heart of our Girl Guiding mission. We want girls to be able to experience things which they aren't traditionally introduced to and these centres they have that infrastructure, they have climbing walls, they have zip wires, they have tunnelling, a lot of them have water sports so you can go kayaking and stand up paddle boarding and having that infrastructure in place at these places is really important for delivering our guiding mission of accessing adventure for girls. They're girl-only spaces so they're safe. We hold a festival especially for our guides and rangers that happens at Waddo Hall in Lancashire and at Foxleas in the New Forest.

And this is where you can go to a music festival as a 10 to 18 year old, a girl only environment and experience that. And it's just a really safe way of being able to experience these things, which as teenagers you want to do, but it's a little bit frightening and daunting to go and do that as a girl on your own. Good stepping stone then to the adult world. Definitely. I hear what you're saying there. We have this statement from Girlguiding and they say the Board of Trustees has decided to change how Girlguiding UK operates overseas and end organised guiding run by Girlguiding UK in these territories and territories from

the 1st of September and then it goes goes on to say, under the proposal, the five centres will keep operating until the 31st of December 2023 this year. Girl guiding is now in a period of consultation with staff who may be affected. And we are unable to comment further during this time. We remain committed to giving all girls opportunities to experience adventure within their units, near their home and in other locations and facilities so this seems they seem to say well even if these go we will be able to provide the same experience elsewhere will they? Well it does mean that there's going to be a lot more demand placed on other facilities we're already finding that a lot of our unit leaders

were saying they couldn't get into events at our trading and activity centres because they were already fully booked. We're now going to be passing that demand onto other centres, centres which are outside of Girlguiding. So there's going to be a higher cost involved in being able to host events there. And also, we know that that money then is outside of Girlguiding. It's not coming back it's not being reinvested into our own properties um so yes there are other places where you can have adventure not for those units that currently meet close to our activity centers though they're going to have to go further afield i also i don't like this idea that just because they say 10 of our

members have been using them per year that's not not 10% over 10 years. That means that 90% of people are having adventures elsewhere. Actually, we don't know what 90% of those people are doing during that one year. They might not be having adventures at all. And having less places to have adventures isn't going to help that. Kirsty, thank you so much for coming in. Kirsty Patterson, guide leader and spokesperson for their campaign and good luck with the vigil. Thank you very much. Overnight, tonight. We can go back to paying tribute to Glenda Jackson now.

I'm delighted to say actress Cate Blanchett joins us on the line now. Good morning. Good morning. Just first of all, when you heard the news, it's incredibly sad. But when you look back over what she achieved in her life, both in the acting world and political world, what a legacy she left. Indeed. I mean, you know, there's so many adjectives that you can describe. Leonard Jackson, I mean, force of nature, firebrand.

You know, it's one of the most extraordinary things and the biggest losses, I think, is that she had such a non-linear career. She forged her own path in an uncompromising way. But yet she continued that sense of quest for truth. And she was driven by, you know, to empathetically connect not only with her characters but with her audience, both as a politician and an actress. And was it that complete authenticity and the ability to make those choices at a time when it must have been harder as an actress to do that?

Do you think that she is so revered now? She wasn't afraid of speaking her mind, she wasn't afraid of speaking up and speaking out, was she? No, she wasn't. I mean, I think fierce intelligence. And so she would be absolutely aware of the consequences of speaking her mind. I mean, they still have consequences, but I can imagine when she first, you know, burst onto the scene, the consequences were cancellation of a total kind. But you always got the sense with her, and this is why her performances were always so dangerous, is that she was prepared to throw it away.

It wasn't the all of her. Nothing was the all of her, even though she gave all in throw it away. It wasn't the all of her. Nothing was the all of her, even though she gave all in every single performance. And I think that contained an utterly inspiring fearlessness that I think so many of us as actresses have been inspired by. Of course, a role that threads through both of your careers is Queen Elizabeth I. Did her performance impact yours in any way? Oh, I can't, I mean, yes, I almost said no to the project.

Who was I? I was, you know, a stage actress from Sydney who'd barely made one film. But I almost said no, and the reason why is I'd seen her television version, and I said, it's been done. What more could I possibly add to the conversation when Glenda Jackson has already played the role?

Obviously, Flora Robson, many other people had inhabited her in many different styles of film, but I felt that it was so complete and so rich and so deep, and it was indelibly etched on my mind. I thought it was an act of hubris taking it on after she had played the role. So, yes, absolutely. But then what it gave rise to, speaking that, wasn't a fear so much. It was an act of deference and reverence, I think, me saying that.

It then forged a very hearty, robust conversation with the director about why we were bothering to make the film in the first place. So I constantly thought about her when I was playing the role both times. And in a way that she presented herself in that role specifically was so immersive and the way she sort of, even simple things like cutting her hairline back in the way that she did, she looked absolutely brutal. Do you think that changed the game? I stole that. You stole that?

I stole that little bit. Yes, I beg, borrow and steal from Glenda Jackson all the time. But she didn't try to look any way attractive in the roles if the role required it, which was a kind of requirement and still is to a certain extent, put on a lot of actresses. She forged her own path, didn't she? I think that she did. She didn't appear to be. I only met her in passing twice, but I don't,'t unfortunately never knew her you know but um you got the sense that she wasn't bound by any convention as a performer and was liberated by um by conventional sense of what

beauty was which of course is on everyone's lips now but at the time that that she was beginning to work it wasn't but she was um in i mean her allure she was beginning to work, it wasn't. But she was, I mean, her allure, she was incredibly attractive and utilized that when she needed to. I mean, if you think about her performance in The Maids, you know, she was absolutely magnetic and sexually charged and, you know, it was always twinned with, she felt like she was in control of that and she was always harnessing it,

harnessing it however she looked in service of the part and her part within the whole, which was the play or the film. She certainly was a trailblazer and thank you so much for coming on to Woman's Arcade to give us your tribute to her. Yes, it's a huge loss.

I was hoping for another 80 odd years. Yeah, well, we've got the memories and thank you for sharing yours with us. Kate Blanchett there on the life and times of the late, great Glenda Jackson. Now, the radio presenter and broadcaster Asma Mir was a teenage introvert and loner. In her memoir, A Pebble in the Throat, she tells a story of her childhood growing up in the 1970s and 80s, Glasgow, where she grew up, and she traces in parallel the story of her mother's own life as a young woman in Pakistan in the 1950s before she moved to Scotland. It's a story of family, identity, disability and belonging. Delighted to say,

Asma joins me in the studio hello hello good morning it's a brilliant read it really is and we i know so much about your family and i feel i still want to uh learn more you've you've colored them in they're in 3d they are vivid let's talk about your approach to the book first of, why did you feel it was important to write? I've always wanted to write the story of my childhood, I suppose, mainly because a lot of people know me as a radio broadcaster. They know me as someone who interviews other people. And they presuppose an element of confidence, which I do have now. But when I was a teenager, I had had none I was fresh out of confidence because of various things that happened I used to stay in my room I didn't interact with people I didn't

speak for long periods of time and I suppose I just wanted to kind of sketch a line between now and then and show people that you know what you see in front of you is not always the whole story. And to talk about your mother's journey to this country, she came from Pakistan, it was an arranged marriage, but your dad had already been here, so he was quite westernised. I'm in some fantastic photos. You have very glamorous parents. There are brilliant photos in this book.

But that was a clash of cultures early on. How did she adapt? So she had no problem adapting, which I found when I was old enough to argue with her about it. I found that really frustrating. And I would say, but mom, it must have been so difficult. And weren't people racist to you? And she would say, no, they were never. And I think that's because she was an adult. And so this was a slight point of conflict between me and my parents and that they didn't understand the prejudice that we understandably faced in the 1970s and 80s, which would be different to today. Because we were children and people always felt, other children and adults felt that they could treat us in a certain way, but they wouldn't necessarily have done that to an adult.

So my parents had the confidence of their own childhoods growing up in Pakistan amongst people who looked like them and that set them on their way. It formed their characters. Whereas we were on shaky, very shaky ground. You know, we were going to school every day and being questioned, you know, sometimes just in a curious way and sometimes in a kind of slightly cruel way. And I think it really, really does affect you as you grow up. You write about that so brilliantly, the kind of terror of being paralysed, sitting in the car next to your mum and your mum saying, go in the shop, get the sweets. And you don't want to, because you know who's in that shop. And anyone who's experienced bullying or intimidation will know

what that feels like. Why was it important to put that into words? I think because a lot of people, a lot of children, even today, maybe feel that way for whatever reason, you know, they feel paralysed by a lack of confidence, fear, insecurity. For me, a lot of the time, it would have been paranoia. I mean, I would have gone into that shop and nothing would have happened. But I didn't believe that anymore because a lot of things had happened. There was an incident in the book where, I don't want to spoil it, but, you know, I was basically ostracized by the entire class. And that was a really, really lonely, lonely time in my life. And that's kind of because people didn't speak to me. I stopped speaking. And also it's very ironic that you end up doing the job that you do where you are talking constantly. You know, you're talking for hours every day. And I suppose I just wanted to... I've got a lot of people who've got in touch with me the same age as me, I'm 51,

who say that they went through the same thing. And these people are not Pakistani necessarily or any kind of different religion or skin colour or whatever. They're just people who lost their confidence and most of them went on to find it again. But it just makes you feel, I don't know, you can send a message back into time and make that girl or that boy feel less lonely all those years ago.

And to the future and to the present as well. That's what I took from it. It's very, very instructive, being honest about these emotions. Was it difficult then if your parents, as you say, didn't have that experience because they came here, they were adults? I know your mum was a teacher. There's a lovely moment in the book

where a little boy asks her about her skin colour. Do you want to share that one with the listeners? So my mum, yes, she was a primary school teacher. She only did it for a couple of years because then she went into kind of the petrol station business with my dad. And that was kind of the rest of our kind of childhood. But she was a primary school for a couple of years and she was put in primary schools in pretty run down parts of Glasgow. And she didn't really know what was run down and what wasn't. And there was a little boy who she always looked out for, who was always sleeping in class because she asked

him why. And he said, well, you know, my mum comes in, she goes out with her friends and she comes in late at night and I always wait out for her. So he was always falling asleep. And then, you know, they had a good relationship, but then he came in one day and he was mortified and he said, oh my God, you know, someone's told me something terrible about you. What is it? What is it, John? And then he said, I can't say it's such a terrible word. And don't worry, I won't say the word. And he said, but I think you're you're someone said that you're a you're a you're a P word. And she was just like, she had to kind of stifle a smile because she was like, Well, I am. I am a Pakistani. And he was just like, but I don't understand. I was told the Pakistanis were dirty and you're not dirty. And he's only five or six,

completely forgivable little boy. But already that prejudice of people in the 60s, as that was back then, had fed into him. And it was just a really, it was a moment for my mum. She didn't consider that racist in any way and neither should she because there was no intention there it was just a little boy but you know that's that's the closest she ever really came to and even that she says no you know it was we had a great time such a great time they still live in the same part of just outside Glasgow that's 50 years now. There's a wonderful woman in this book if you buy the book which I would urge you to do, Helen your housekeeper, babysitter, an Irish immigrant essentially to Scotland who your dad met in a lawn dread and she became such a key part of the family. She was a

woman who became part of your family but also stood up to racism that she heard um which is so impressive when you're talking about Scotland back in the 70s and 80s it's just mad I mean by the time I arrived there's four of us and I was the third child and she came along when the second child came along and she basically looked after us because my mum had to go and be a teacher there were four of us she needed a nanny. She needed someone to look after all these children. And Helen arrived, as you say, my dad got a tip in a laundrette and then they went and they found her

in the kind of east end of Glasgow. And she stayed with us for 28 years. And she was a wonderful woman and I think some of her family didn't understand why this four foot five, she was so short, she was so tiny. Why this, you know, four foot five white woman wanted to go into service, so to speak, wanted to serve, wanted to, you know, do childcare for this Pakistani family.

And they really struggled with it. But she was with us for 28 years and she defended us to the death against every single person, people who came to the door, parents complaining that we'd done this, that and all the rest of it when we hadn't. Other little children who would occasionally chuck things at us. She was just there, her voice, very Glaswegian, very strident, growing stronger on the doorstep.

And as I say, she was with us for 28 years. She didn't even need to be there. We weren't children anymore. Most of us had left home, but she didn't want to leave. And when she died, she was still working for us. She wasn't in the house at the time. She was in her 70s, but she never left us. And I feel that she's never left us because I think that's a part of my little brother,

who's also in the book. And I talk about his story of autism and Asperger's. She is a person that I still think about. I still feel that she's not left us. She's still here. You write so well about, you know, it's beautifully drawn. Really, I feel like I know her as well. Now, just a final word in the final minute then.

What do you hope people um who buy this book uh will get from it what's the message that you want them to receive um don't give up uh if you're in a situation like this it will not always be like this i wish i could send a message back to my 13 year old self when i thought it was just the end of the world that things will change there won't necessarily be a cinderella moment but this things will not always be this way things will change there won't necessarily be a cinderella moment but this things will not always be this way things will change you you're not stuck and the title one final question a pebble in the throat what does it mean it means so many different things but i suppose it means um clearing a a blockage and it can be physically in your throat or it can be mentally in your brain and

finally just stepping away from all the bad stuff which I've had to do recently as well in my adult life, and just being free and being loud. Asma, we were talking about that earlier on purging your love life in the past. So thank you for bringing us full circle. The book is called A Pebble in the Throat. Asma Mir, thank you very much for joining us. That is Woman's Hour for today. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, my name is Michelle De Swalt. And I'm Laura Smith.

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