Woman's Hour - Actor Geena Davis. Sibling age gaps. Modern slavery and working rights.

Episode Date: October 18, 2022

In her memoir "Dying of Politeness" the Oscar winning actor Geena_Davis talks about her roles from a housewife-turned-road warrior and an amnesiac assassin to the mother of a rodent, and the president of the United States. Plus she shares with Jessica Ceighton how she could have swapped acting for athletes and her passion for female representation.Many of you got in touch after the journalist Merope Mills voiced her anger at her 13-year-old daughter Martha's preventable death in hospital. Jessica Creighton speaks to consultant child and adolescent psychiatrist Dr Virginia Davies about some of the broader medical issues you raised - from feeling that doctors and other medical staff were sometimes arrogant and often weren’t listening to your concerns about patient care to whether there needs to be a change in hospital culture. Survivors of modern slavery could be contributing to the UK economy and helping to address skills shortages, but instead are being held back by bureaucratic red tape, that’s according to a new report by Hestia the leading provider of modern slavery support in London and the Southeast.  The want for survivors to be given a temporary right to work as soon as they enter the system. We hear from a survivor "Trinny" and Alison Logier Head of Modern Slavery services about the impact this could have both for survivors and society as a whole.What's it like to be the youngest child with large age gaps between you and your siblings? And what can parents do to help ease the difficulties that might occur? Presenter Jessica Creighton Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, I'm Danny Robbins, host of the spooky podcast Uncanny and the Battersea Poltergeist. Just before you settle down for your usual podcast, maybe you're out walking or maybe you're at home. But are you alone? Are you sure? Because this is a warning. Something wicked this way comes. My brand new podcast series, The Witch Farm, mixes documentary and drama

to investigate a real-life paranormal cold case. Listen out for The Witch Farm, the true story of Britain's most haunted house. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. And what a programme we have for you today. A star of Hollywood will be joining me.

An actor who's bold, powerful and badass, as she puts it, roles in film and TV defined a generation. Oscar winner Gina Davis will be in the studio to discuss her painfully polite upbringing, her extraordinary career and yes, that film, Thelma and Louise. Also, after such a big reaction to our interview with mother Merope Mills, whose daughter Martha died last year and whose death was found to have been preventable, we'll be looking at the many issues people might experience when interacting with doctors. Lots of you, and I mean lots of you, got in touch to, of course, praise the life-saving work that doctors do,

but also to tell us about your experiences in how you deal with the arrogance of some medical staff and the reluctance to listen to family members when it comes to patient care. Does hospital culture need to change? Do we put doctors on too high of a pedestal that prevents us from challenging them? We'll be discussing all of this a bit later in the programme. Also this morning, we speak to a survivor of modern slavery. She'll tell us about her struggles since arriving in the UK. And it comes as a charity calls for survivors of modern slavery to have restrictions lifted on when they can work and which roles they can work in. Plus, how much of an age gap is there between you and your siblings?

How did that gap impact your childhood? Some studies suggest it has an impact on our personalities. What do you think? You can WhatsApp us on 03700100444. Remember, though, that data charges may apply, so you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. You can text us as well on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can get in touch with us on social media. We are at BBC Woman's Hour and you can always email us through our website. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts. We'll be speaking to two women who have quite big age gaps between their two youngest children to get their views as well. Now, my first guest this morning is a two time Academy Award winner.

Actor Gina Davis has played an eclectic range of roles, from a soap star in her underwear in Tootsie, to housewife turned road warrior in Thelma and Louise, mural Pritchett in The Accidental Tourist, and who could forget baseball phenomenon Dottie Hinson in A League of Their Own, as well as the bug films The Fly and Beetlejuice. However, there are even more strings to her bow. Archery, for one. Did you know Gina is also a world-class athlete? She's been a model and can speak Swedish as well. She's also a fearless stuntwoman and tireless advocate as founder and chair of the Gina Davis Institute

on Gender in the Media. Gina, what an absolute pleasure to have you in the studio with me this morning. Thank you, Jessica. I'm very happy to be here. Thank you. It's so great to have you. I'm almost breathless reading out your CV there, your incredible list of achievements. But one of the main things I'd love to talk to you about is your book, a memoir, and it's called Dying of Politeness, which is a great title. But I'm just struck by the front cover. I'm looking at it here. It's you, which looked to be an afternoon tea alongside a bear in a resplendent, beautiful yellow dress. What's the imagery represent?

You know, the title is meant to be kind of funny and I wanted a humorous photo that kind of explained what that could look like. And so a bear has come to probably kill me and I decide before that happens I'll just serve him tea. Why not? Yeah, it fits in theme with the book. So Dying of Politeness. Why that title? Well, it was when I was deciding that I might want to write a book and thinking about what the arc that I might describe would be about. And I decided that in my life, the roles that I played were much more, let's say, I don't want to say impolite,

but were badasses before I ever was. And it sort of was amazing that I got to play these characters and I could vicariously live like somebody like that and then it rubbed off on my real life. But the actual politeness part was because my family was so profoundly obsessed with being polite and not being any trouble to anybody and being, you know, very humble and modest. And I almost did literally die of politeness. Yeah. In your book, you say you were trained to be insanely polite, that you learned to have no needs at all. But you mentioned how it became dangerous for you in a situation with your Uncle Jack, who was 99 years old at the time.

Tell us about that. Yeah, he was driving in a car that my parents and I were in the back seat of. We'd gone out to dinner with him and my aunt. And, you know, the 99-year-old guy is driving. And we're on this narrow, pretty empty road. But every once in a while, he'd veer into the oncoming traffic lane and then come back. And my parents said nothing about this at all. But then a car was actually coming in the other direction, and he veered into their lane, and he was staying there.

And nobody said a word. And at the last instant before a head-on collision, my Aunt Marion said, a little to the right, Jack. And he kind of veered a little to the right, and they went by like a foot away from us. And only in hindsight did I realize my parents would have rather died, and me, you know, than say anything to the gentleman. So, yeah, it was unbelievable. I'm glad they did.

I'm very glad they did, and I'm very glad that you're here. One of the things that struck me was that despite this way that you were brought up with this extreme politeness, there was an inner steel to you. And from three years old, you declared you were going to be an actor. Where did that come from? Well, I don't even remember saying it really. I don't remember much about being three, but my parents assured me that that's what I said. So I must have seen something. I must have known that that was a job, I guess, but it never, ever wavered. And I had this unshakable confidence that it was going to happen. That you could just decide you were going to be an actor in movies and then you get to.

We were just so naive about anything to do with Hollywood. There was a time as well where you worked in a department store. I think this was after college. And you created a role for yourself I suppose before you actually became an actor yes you became one of the mannequins did you yes tell me about that where did that idea come from oh so I was a sales girl and um I noticed one Saturday that in the window they had two mannequins sitting at a little tea table or something, eating plastic food.

And there was an empty chair. And I said to one of my girlfriends, dare me to get in the chair. She was like, yeah, yeah, go ahead. So I didn't know what I thought I was going to do once I got there. But I went and sat in the chair. And some people were looking in the window at that time. And so I just froze like a mannequin. And they were kind of stunned.

And then somebody came by and said, what are you guys looking at? They were like, well, just wait, because they wanted to wait and see what I was going to do. And then a whole crowd gathered. I was all made up and wearing the same clothes as the store. So I must have really looked like a mannequin. But anyway, I discovered that I had an uncanny ability for motionlessness and to go a long time without blinking, too. So anyway, the manager saw what was happening,

and they ended up hiring me every Saturday to be a mannequin in the window. And so eventually, you know, I mentioned this inner steel and your confidence in wanting to become an actor. And then one of your first roles, you know, it happens. And one of your first roles was in Tootsie, opposite, none other than Dustin Hoffman. What a great opportunity that was. Did you enjoy that? Oh, God, yes. I enjoyed it so much. It was my first audition even, and I got the part.

And partly I was stunned, but partly I was like, well, I mean, this is what was supposed to happen. So it makes sense. You know, it's such a strange reaction to this opportunity. But I loved it. I loved every minute of it. Tell me about Thelma and Louise, because there'll be a lot of listeners hearing you on the program this morning

and will have grown up watching that film. Right. And it would have very much become a part of their lives. How did that role change your life? It changed it tremendously. And from the minute I read the script, I wanted, you know, I have to be in this movie. I didn't even care which one I played. And it took me a year to finally get cast in it. But I think it was because these were women that took control of their fate to the bitter end, you know,

and for women to do something like that, to, you know, to just trust themselves and whatever mistakes they make, they never relinquish control of their lives. And I think that's why I wanted to be part of it. There's another actor who is still very much in Hollywood that was also part of that film, Thelma and Louise. And you've actually dedicated a whole chapter of the book to him. It's called The Blonde One. It's 20 pages long.

Tell me about your first meeting with Brad Pitt when you were auditioning for that role. Right, right. Well, I had got... By the way, the chapter's not all about him. It's about the whole Thelma and Laurie's experience. But he's referred to as the blonde one. Yes. So I was cast and then they had four finalists for the role of JD. And they said, would I read with them to just see, you know, how we were together. And one by one, they came in and they were, would I read with them to just see how we were together? And one by one they came in and each of them was handsome and did a great job. I had no preference at all.

And then the final one was Brad Pitt. And when he came in and started reading, I was like, oh, my God, he's so incredible. I mean, obviously, you know how he looks, but he was an incredible actor. And I was totally screwing up his audition because I was so taken by him that I kept forgetting to say my lines.

yeah, so then later when they asked me my opinion who I thought was, I said, the blonde one. And the rest is history. Is history. How was it working alongside Susan Sarandon? You say that she played a big role in your life and she had a big impact on who you were as a person, not just as an actor.

Oh, absolutely, yes. Somehow I had got into my 30s without ever spending any extended time with a woman who says what she thinks and doesn't start by apologizing for existing first. And that had been my whole, you know, I couldn't say anything without a bunch of qualifiers in front of it. But she just modeled this unbelievable ease of moving through the world with just knowing what you think and saying it. And nothing confrontational about it, just very simply had opinions and wasn't shy to share them. And it was astounding to me. And the other big lesson is how nobody reacted to that negatively.

Everybody loved her. And wait a minute, so you don't get punished for saying what you think was like just a revelation. So, yeah, she changed my whole life. And I think it was when you were working on another film a league of their own that you realized how athletic you were and after that decided to take up archery yes we're trying to get to the olympics weren't you well yes i mean my coach says that i said at the first lesson how old is too old to go to the Olympics in archery?

And I hadn't even touched the bow yet. So I think I must have waited until the second lesson to ask that. But I take everything I do too far. And I just wanted to know how far I could potentially go. But yeah, so I took it up because I learned that I was actually athletic by learning baseball. And yeah, I got pretty good at it. And during that film, it felt like during that time that you were being quite vocal about who you were and what you stood for. And you openly told people that you were a feminist.

And this was at a time when that wasn't the popular thing to do. That wasn't the done thing to do. Right. What drove you to do that? Well, when we were shooting League of Their Own, press came to the set often to interview us. And every single person, male or female, said in a sort of winking tone, like, would you call yourself? I mean, would you say this movie is a feminist movie? Like, hee-hee, you know, I actually brought up that word. And I said, yeah, yeah, it is.

And they were like, what, really? Well, are you saying that you're a feminist? And I would say, yeah, sure. And they almost invariably asked me if it was okay to actually print that, that I was okay with them actually writing that in the article. And I was like, yeah. But that's how sort of almost toxic the word was at that time. It's very strange. Yeah. And you are clearly very passionate about, I suppose,

raising the profile of women and girls. You founded the Gina Davis Institute of Gender in the Media because you first noticed that on-screen representation when watching TV wasn't good enough and you wanted to change it. Right. Absolutely. I mean, I knew about the big gender imbalance in Hollywood, but my daughter was a toddler, and I started watching children's programs and movies with her. And I was stunned to see that in the 21st century, we were showing kids a world that was very dominated by male characters. And probably because I was a mother or whatever, but I thought, well, this is the completely wrong thing to be doing. You know, we're teaching kids to have gender bias from minute one. So then I became obsessed with trying to change that.

And when it comes to the industry now, have things improved, not just for onscreen representation, but the way women are treated? We've obviously seen the Me Too movement build over the last few years. Yeah, I would say post-Me Too things have changed for sure. Certainly no agent is going to send somebody to audition in a hotel room anymore, which is one good thing. But I feel like my peers and I were all really afraid to ever say anything negative or critical because they'll just get somebody else. You have to be like, I'm really easy to work with. I'm really nice. And I don't think that that's true anymore. And how polite are you now, Gina?

What's that? How polite are you now? I'm medium polite. You seem very polite are you now? I'm medium polite. You seem very polite still. Yeah, I'm still polite. Yeah. I created an alter ego. I play jigsaw puzzles online and there's a chat room.

And my name is Amy. And I am so insanely polite, like always saying, have a lovely day. Blessings to you and stuff. And I don't know, I think it's where I can put my extra politeness. It happens, doesn't it? I think the parents that you have and the way you're brought up has a big impact on who you are as a person. Right. Gina, it's been absolute.

It's been such a pleasure to have you in the studio and to talk to you about all of your work and what you've done throughout your extraordinary life as well. Dying of Politeness, a memoir by Gina Davis is published on Thursday. Thank you so much, Gina, for coming on to the programme. Thank you, Jessica.

Now, Maripi Mills' 13-year-old daughter, Martha, died in hospital in 2021 of sepsis. Martha was not referred to critical care until it was too late to save her, and an inquest found that her death had been preventable. The hospital has apologised and said they would learn from their mistakes. Muripi spoke to Emma on this programme two weeks ago. I feel very strongly that we were kept in the dark,

that we were patronised, that we were managed. I think that that is the case with a lot of parents in hospital, that there's a sense that the general public, first of all, couldn't possibly understand the intricacies of complicated care, to which I would say, this is my child. Try me. I'm going to understand it. We weren't told the full picture. We found out things after she died. We weren't part of the team of people looking after Martha. And I think all parents should be. There's a sense that parents need to be controlled because otherwise they might make too much of a fuss. And we can see from the medical notes about Martha that include references to me, to my distress, to my anxiety, that justified anxiety, I think we should say, that I was in some way being seen as a hindrance when I was trying to

express my alarm that things weren't going well. That was Merope Mills talking about her daughter's preventable death. Many of you wrote into us with stories of your own, feeling that doctors and other medical staff were sometimes arrogant and often weren't listening to your concerns about patient care. Of course, lots of you also were keen to recognise the importance and life-saving roles that doctors fulfil in our lives. So to talk through some of the broad range of issues that was raised by that interview, I'm joined in the studio by consultant child and adolescent psychiatrist, Dr. Virginia Davis. Good morning, Virginia.

Good morning. You heard there from Meripi Mills, and of course, we don't want to focus on her, but the issues around that case. You did respond to her story, of course, which she wrote about in The Guardian. So it's a situation that you recognize yeah and i think um it's it's interesting that we're having this discussion immediately after your previous one about a book in which the title is relates to dying of politeness because i think one of the the themes that came up before was about speaking up and not being treated as a passive object in a way,

having more agency within the healthcare system. And obviously I feel, I had to think quite hard about whether I came on the programme because I'm both a doctor, but I'm also a daughter, a granddaughter, a mother, a partner who's had experiences of healthcare. And I was reflecting on the fact that when things go wrong in healthcare, it sticks in our minds so much more than when things are running smoothly. And one thing I wanted to make sure that we acknowledge while we were having the discussion was the fact that for every serious case review, you know, untoward incident, death,

there is so much care going on that just part is unremarked because it's running smoothly. But I think there are some cultural issues that Meropee Mills account of her daughter's experiences do raise and that's the one of what happens when we and I should just say to people who might be thinking why is somebody who would normally work in a community clinic, child and adolescent psychiatrists, normally work in communities? But I work in what's called a liaison setting,

so I work in hospital settings. When we walk into healthcare settings, but even more so hospitals, where we're not going into these institutions because we're in a good way, either as a carer or a relative or as a patient. So anxiety levels are high. And we do have a wish that we can be looked after, like a good mother holds her child tightly in her arms and doesn't let that child feel like they're going to drop.

That's the emotional experience we're looking for. And when we're in very vulnerable states of illness, we also become more emotionally sort of, well, more kind of emotionally dependent. And we have a wish for the institution and our doctors to be infallible and one thing i was thinking was that we have to we have to work really hard as as users of the health care system to also um not die of politeness um i mean she when when gina was talking about family she was talking about them taking control of their fates that there's something about being able to do that, even though all the messages that are coming into us are be passive, be passive. Yes, people need to feel empowered.

And that's certainly something that our listeners got in touch with us about. A lot of listeners told us, though, about the arrogant behaviour of some doctors doctors and several of those were still in the NHS or had retired. Sam got in touch and has worked in the NHS for 30 years, the last seven years at chief executive level. Let's hear from Sam. The deference automatically offered to the medical profession was one of the biggest difficulties that made my skin crawl. They are human, yes they know a lot and yes they also make mistakes which in their line of business kills people. Their arrogance is astonishing. Wherever and whenever I could, with patient-facing opportunities, I used to call it out. It is plain dangerous.

I worked with some amazing clinicians and strongly believe in a clinical-led NHS, but patients know themselves and their loved ones. No profession should be on a pedestal. That was voiced by a member of our production team from an email we got from Sam who got in touch. We also had this email come in from Catherine, one of our listeners, and they say, for my part, when people ask why my husband died in 2009, I now reply, he died of no one listening. We have a large economy, yet our outcomes in many medical areas are poor. So money isn't the problem. The best doctors I've experienced have been those outside this country and simply because they listen.

The very best were in Nigeria, where money is tight, yet listening is a priority. How much do those comments surprise you Virginia from Catherine and from Sam? I think the fact that the talking about arrogance in doctors I recognise that. I think if you look at any profession, there are individuals who are arrogant. We're suffering the effects of arrogance, one could argue, by trust and quarting at the moment. But as they say in the second piece, in healthcare, arrogance potentially leads to death. I mean, we are suffering major consequences as a country at the moment because of arrogance in another profession. And I think

you cannot get away from the fact that there will always be a cohort of individuals who are arrogant. I was thinking about what produces arrogance. So it's not how they're trained, it's already within them as they join the profession. I was thinking about this a lot before coming on this programme. And I think some of it goes back to the comment you made at the end of your previous interview about the importance of the way that we are raised as children. So some people are brought up to think that they are a little princeling or princess and they will be in that state before they even get to medical school. I've been a personal tutor of lots of medical students. I would say the vast majority are not like that and if anything they

question their ability and their credentials. And in fact, that tweet that was mentioned after the last show in which somebody said they shouldn't be told that they're in the 0.1% of the population, intelligence wise, was actually used at one of the medical schools where I was talking to somebody to try and encourage the medical students in the fourth year to believe that they could get through. They were actually saying it to them in a kind of, look, guys, you know, you can do it, because everyone was feeling so insecure about their capacities. But anyway, going back to what creates arrogance, I mean, you've got some people who come in who are, they are arrogant when they get there.

Then we've got the expectations to get placed on people as doctors. You must be my savior you must sort me out you know the the conceit that lies at the heart of health care which is we can see off death really i wonder and that can over time you know a bit like in a family if you're always the one that's seen as the naughty one you start to behave as the naughty one if you're always the one that's seen as the you know you've got to be mr or mrs brilliant that will have an effect not on everybody and i would say the vast majority of doctors i work with are not arrogant but they're they're yeah for sure there are arrogant senior clinicians that um are are a real problem and i wonder what knock-on effect that might have on

our expectations of medical staff um because lots of our listeners got in touch and wanted to talk about their concerns and their criticisms. But there were other listeners who wanted to acknowledge the huge pressure medical staff are under. Jane emailed us to say, listening to your program this morning brought back many memories of intensive care with my 17 year old-old son following a freak rugby accident when his kidney was sheared off. Simon was incredibly lucky to survive. I have only immense gratitude for the intensive care staff and consultant who allowed us to be part of the team, including us, and keeping us updated through some tough touch-and-go situations. There was only one nurse who got it wrong and tried to exclude us from the care team. That was the only time I panicked

and felt Simon was unsafe. It is crucial to allow families into the care circle. I'm very grateful for our experience and very aware of the fine line that is trodden in such situations. So Virginia, do we expect too much from our medical staff? Do we expect them to be infallible?

I think, yes, there is a lot of expectation to be infallible because that's the fantasy and the wish that any of us want to have when we're very ill or we've got a very ill loved one. We want magic to happen and everything to kind of go back to okayness. But, I mean, the point that Catherine made about it's not about money, I would contest that because there has been such real terms disinvestment in a way from the NHS relative to the costs of everything and the ageing population. And there, after Covid, where people were moved around onto completely different wards, had to work completely out of their own, their areas of expertise because it became so pressured. That has taken a lot out of people. And I think people will be shocked to hear that the reason junior doctors are balloting

for strike action is because they have just had a pay rise up to the amount of £14 an hour, £14 an hour for junior doctors. These are people that have trained for a really long time. I was listening to somebody into the city or to go into other jobs where because of all their training they get parity with their peers in other subjects in terms of pay conditions benefits that kind of thing the the the thing she said that really um struck me was you know it when when the pandemic was going on and there was appreciation and there were some little benefits, like we could get a bit of a reduction at the sandwich shops or whatever, we actually felt like people appreciated what we were doing. And now it just feels like the government's gone back to bashing doctors, you know, going for that approach. And the trouble is, if we get into dichotomous arguments about, you know, are the good guys the patients or the doctors and nurses?

It doesn't become helpful because it distracts us from the fact that actually our NHS is massively underfunded at the moment. And we've got a huge manpower crisis, which hasn't been addressed in Therese Coffey's plan for patients. You know, massive lack of GPs. And instead, we just get things like everybody's going to be able to get an appointment in two weeks, you know, which just sets up unreasonable expectations of a system that's already doing its damnedest to kind of try and deliver the best care it can with a lot of very exhausted staff,

lots of gaps in rotors and people. And the other thing I did want to mention is there has been a real breakup in the continuity of care. So relationship-based medicine is no longer possible where you, you know, a bit like if you see the same GP or you have the same team around you in the hospital, which is so much safer because people carry lots of detail

about you or your loved one. If you've only got a set of junior doctors who stays on one ward for four months and the consultants rotate through either every day or every week or every month, you haven't got the same continuity. That is exactly what some of our listeners have told us who are currently working in the NHS as doctors or at other senior levels. They said that doctors need to listen more. But someone who worked as a

consultant for 23 years told us she believes it's the continuity of care that you mentioned that is at the root of how mistakes are easily made. The lack of continuity of care by one person in charge is part of the problem. In the past, the system was safer as each patient belonged to a consultant who was head of his team of registrar, SHO and houseman. In teaching hospitals there was a senior registrar. The consultant had responsibility for the patient 24-7 and the patient was only seen by his team. Thus there was continuity of care and any changes in the clinical condition were noted quickly by the team. Nowadays there is no one person in charge of the patient. It is a group of doctors who all seem to be on shifts and the team looks after the patient. So were a patient's condition to deteriorate, whoever is on call or in charge for that day would be called and often they would not

have seen that patient before. So they would have to rely on the notes. It would be necessary in that situation to assess the patient from scratch and often the most junior member of the team would be called first. It would be up to them to decide whether to involve a more senior doctor, who again may be new to the case. The decision to get a critical care review is done usually by a senior doctor who may be involved for the first time and may not know the patient. I saw you nodding along to that, Virginia. Do you think the nature of hospital culture needs to change?

A culture can encompass so many things I think there is there's attitudinal stuff but I think you've got to have safe staffing and you've got to have structures that work for patients so I think yes absolutely I think we need to at medical school level we have to make changes that put the patient far more at the middle of the way that medical students are taught with what are called patient journeys or patient experience or teaching delivered by patients and carers that's that doesn't really happen at the moment some board meetings and trusts are doing that but I think it's it's both and but we cannot just have a change in attitude without enough staff and without enough money to run the service because otherwise compassion and burnout lead you

know brutalized staff can't look after people well a bit like you know your listeners will know if they want their either their child or their elderly relative well looks after, they're not going to treat their childminder nanny carer really badly and without dignity, because otherwise, you know, callousness begets callousness. Dr. Virginia Davis, thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour. And you can listen to Meripy Mill's full interview on BBC Sounds. Now, survivors of modern slavery could be contributing to the UK economy and helping to address skills shortages, but instead they're being held back by bureaucratic red tape. That's according to a new report by Hestia, the leading provider of modern slavery support in London and the South East. The charity provides support to over 2000 survivors, both in safe houses

and in the community. They're calling for survivors to be given a temporary right to work as soon as they enter the system. Applications can take three years or more to be processed. And during the first year, people cannot work at all. After 12 months, they're limited to applying for certain professions, which are on the government's shortage list. Now Alison at Logier is Hestia's head of modern slavery services and joins me now. Very good morning to you Alison. First though could you just define what we mean by modern slavery? Modern slavery is a very brutal, serious and often hidden crime. It can happen to anyone, men, women, children. It happens behind closed doors most of the time. People are forced, they They're emotionally abused. They're threatened.

Their families back home are threatened. And that's often the first question we get is why don't these people just leave? They can't because of that emotional control. I've worked with a woman, for example, who was trafficked here to the UK when she was 12 years old. She thought she was coming to work in a hotel. And as soon as she arrived, she was put in a brothel. She was raped 20 times on her very first day. So it's a very heinous crime and these people are victims. Where are these people coming from? Some come from abroad, some are trafficked into the UK but we also have people here in the UK being taken advantage of, being exploited. Okay now we're going to hear from a woman that has been caught up in this very

situation. We're calling her Trini. She originally came to the UK to join relatives who said they would help her. She arrived on a six-month visa, but within a few months, she said she was being exploited and controlled and ended up overstaying and therefore was here illegally. She went to Hestia for help last year and is now awaiting a final decision to determine if she was a victim of modern slavery. Under current rules, she's now been able to get a job via the government's shortage occupation list. So although she's a trained chef,

she's now working in the care sector. Reporter Jo Morris went to meet her at a safe house run by Hestia in London. I'm coming to my sludge bedroom, sludge living room. So everything's in here? Everything's in here. One of my neighbours, the girl, she always reminds me that when she first met me, how I would be crying all the time.

It was really bad when I got here I've never had anyone who openly wants to help me without something in return so it's like what do they want what's going on and it took me a long time to really come to terms and and come to the reality that, look, this is not that kind of situation. And this is a safe house. Yes, this is a safe house. Nobody knows where you are. And you're fortunate to be in this space because we're not allowed to bring people in this space. No one's allowed to dress.

It's very important because in our lives, there are so many people who has abused us. We live in fear. Do you still live in fear? Some things I'm still fearful of. I'm still jumpy. I'm not over a lot of things, but I manage better than I used to before. Can we go back to the beginning?

Yes. What happened to you, Trenny? How did you end up in a safe house? What happened? I was married at a very young age. How old were you? Got married at 23. What happened to you, Trenny? How did you end up in a safe house? What happened? I was married at a very young age. How old were you? Got married at 23.

He loved me and everything. Treated me very well. He was much older than me. He was 22 years older than me. But it wasn't a thing where I was like being abused in any kind of way. He had a lot of kids. I didn't have children. He had about seven kids.

But four was living with us. I grew the four children as my own. They called me mom and everything. Then my husband got cancer. And when he died, everything changed. Well, the kids wanted a house. I was threatened with a gun. Things in my house, when they was missing was there was a whole chaos going on with the kids who left who's they you know going through the village saying this I felt like everybody was against me they just wanted me out and it was becoming violent and the decision was made for me to come here but I didn't get the help what I was supposed to get. Maybe it starts off with good intentions. But I think what happened is when I was so fortunate to always get a job that was willing to pay me and take the chance with me and pay me the cash in hand. You know, I'm being very transparent. Because I am who I am with a chef. I'm creative i work for good money i work 600 pound a week see the

money no see some of the money yeah how much very little how much very little well it depends it's going different avenues you know it's like everybody one piece of the pie you know i mean and the more people know your situation i'll just sum it up like this the more people know that you're illegal the more people know that you really want to stay here and you're running from something there they keep coming and you will always figure that you know what I gotta just keep paying to stay alive so you were working and people around you were taking your money and leaving you with very little. Yeah. I work. I pay. I end up in jobs where even the person who employ me is exploiting me.

I work and I'm supposed to get 400. I'm going to get two. I'm going to get one. And they're going to remind me my place. I was reminded so many times, you know, you don't have this and we can call immigration for you. You know, even the police can lock you up. Now I know different. I know it's two different entities, police and immigration. They're different. I didn't know because I'm just knowing what they tell you. And then you believe because they're here. You don't know the country. All you know, you don't want to go back where you come from. You don't want to go to, you don't

want nobody to try to kill you for house and land and all these things you're running from all that and you're weighing the the situation like oh if i pay them i'm alive i'm okay just pay so the people that you thought were going to help you didn't help yeah you don't complain you do what you have to do that's why people can't understand this terminology of modern day slavery because we just do what we have to do we already know you know so you just do it until you find an escape route that's what it was the fear hold me and then you find yourself in abusive relationships because when you're done with maybe family members and people you call your friends and stuff taken from you turn to man you're searching for love and then that same partner I'll help you don't worry I'll help you because I didn't have bank

account I never had a GP I never had a bank account I never had nothing and you know met this guy lived with him for three years so I'm putting my money into his account because I don't have no way for my money to go when I work. He took everything. All of your money? Everything. And he burnt up all my documents. That's why I don't have anything. I don't have a birth paper.

I don't have anything. I'm an alien. He burnt all your documents? Yeah. So I had nothing. What documents did he burn? So the only thing he didn't get was my passport. But he burnt my birth paper, my husband's death certificate, marriage certificate, all my school papers, burnt everything.

He used to really beat me, abuse me a lot, physically abuse me. I went through so much abuse. I got this tattoo on my hand because I needed to hide the beatings and the marks. Just taking off your jumper off here to show me yes so i put this tattoo here because i needed to cover up it's still a bit dark from all where i get the beating here see all these dark spots around here and i went and get this tattoo here and did you get this tattoo after you came here yeah this every this is done here i met a guy you know ex-army guy and we started talking till i felt comfortable enough to tell him my story and he's like invite me to just live out

of london was the first time i ever went out of london it was during the pandemic and i was really i do because there's no food nothing we were We were talking, he said, come, I will help you out and whatever. When I got to the door, he said, you have to take your clothes off because of the COVID and I need to put your clothes in the wash. And so you'll need to put something on. So I was like, no, I don't. He said, yeah, but you can't enter the house. And, you know, and he raped me. And so these are the things that make me say, I can't, sorry.

You know, these are the things that I say I couldn't do no more. And I needed help. I'm not going to endure these things no more. So I said, I even said, I don't care if immigration put me in a detention centre. I believe I'm going to be safe in there. So I'm going to take you now to the garden, our little garden. It's quite wettish, but it's okay. I sit here sometimes and paint.

If you see, you'll see specks of paint. Have you made a lot of friends here? Oh, well, you know what? So everyone here is a part of modern-day slavery. Do you talk about it with each other? Not really you know what we do talk about is the future. What does the future hold for you? I made it. I survived. I don't like to be treated like a victim. I'm a survivor and I'm proud to say I'm a survivor. And coming to the safe house, it's the best thing that happened to me. You know, the first time I've had a bank account was 2021. So when I got my bank account, I was jumping for joy.

I was looking at it every day. And now I've got my work permit. So you've got a job now? Yeah. What are you doing? I'm working as a support worker. I work with mental health patients, help vulnerable people. Yeah, so that's what I do.

And it's paid work. Yeah, that's another thing. I'm so happy. Oh my God, when I got my first pay, I looked at the... I went on to... Because I've got the online banking. And I went on to my bank account and I looked at my pay and I was like, yes, it's all mine. That was a woman we're calling Trini speaking to our reporter, Jo Morris.

Now, we did contact the Home Office to let them know about the discussion that we're having this morning. A spokesperson said, we will always support those who are genuine victims, but the system is under significant pressure and there's evidence that this scheme is being exploited by people smugglers and criminals seeking to prevent removal and we must do what we can to prevent that. Of course, Angela Logier is still with me from Hestia.

Listening to that, we can clearly hear that Trini got a job via the government shortage occupation list. So she's in work. What is it that you would like to change and what differences could those changes make to someone like Trini? We are calling for the government to allow everyone the right to work straight away. So currently, if you're a victim of modern slavery and an asylum seeker at the same time, you have to wait 12 months before you can apply for a work permit. And then you can only do these jobs on the shortage occupation list. Our research shows that 96% of the people we support, these survivors, want to work.

They want to pay tax and contribute to the economy. And they want to do it now. Why wait 12 months? We're losing so much potential. We have people who are trained biomedical scientists. I've worked with a woman who holds a master's in chemical engineering. I mean, these are skilled professionals. And we're facing a shortage crisis here at the minute in the UK. We have businesses spending hundreds of thousands of pounds looking abroad for skilled workers. And we've got a perfectly viable workforce here. Yeah. Alison Logier, thank you very much for coming on the programme.

That was Alison Logier there, who is Hestia's Head of Modern Slavery Services. Now, whilst talking about the large sibling gap between her children, journalist Angela Epstein was shocked when her 18-year-old daughter Sophie asked her, did you ever think what a big age gap might mean for me? She realised that she hadn't at the time. She'd been just happy to have another baby six years after her youngest son was born.

So what is it like to be the youngest child with large age groups, large age gaps, I should say, between siblings? And what can parents do to help ease the difficulties that might occur as a result? Glad to say that we can speak to Angela this morning and also to Dr. Sheila Redfern, who is a consultant child and adolescent clinical psychiatrist at the Anna Freud Centre. Good morning, Sheila. Good morning, Angela. Good morning. Angela, I'll come to you first. Just tell us about the setting, the environment, about how this conversation came about with your daughter. Well, Sophie and I were having a lovely lunch together. We'd gone

out and we were just having a couple of cheese toasties at the local cafe. And it was one of the things that I never really had the time or the privilege to do, if you like, with my other children. I have three older children. They were born quite close together. And there was always kind of a toddler hanging on my leg or I had to be running somewhere to do a pickup. Sophie is six years younger than her youngest, than her other siblings. So I have three boys and then there was a six-year gap. And then Sophie, which meant that by the time she was 13, the next brother up had left home.

He'd gone on his gap year and then went off to university. So it afforded me more time to do stuff with her. And I was making a positive of this. I was making a virtue of it. We were chatting and I was saying, it was wonderful. I gave you the time that I couldn't give the others. And isn't it lovely that we can do these things? And she sort of looked at me and she's a very sort of thoughtful person who processes things, hugely affectionate. It wasn't done in a pejorative way, but she looked at me and simply said, that's all great. But did you ever consider how the age gap might play out from sort of from my end of the phone?

What it might mean for me to be six years younger and therefore be the last one at home by a significant amount. And I was quite startled because honestly, I hadn't. All that had happened is I'd had three kids together. A lot of women will identify with having a sort of a bundle of toddlers and a baby and trying to do it all. And so it was such a, and I thought I'd finished. And then about six years later, I suddenly got unexpectedly broody. I just had this visceral urge to have another baby. And I hadn't thought about, well gosh how's that how's the I think they call it baby spacing how's that going to work for the child I just thought how wonderful for me well should you have thought about this one Angela well the thing is I maybe I don't know if I should or I shouldn't

I mean anybody will tell you who you know anybody who's fortunate enough to to have a baby it doesn't just automatically happen for everyone. When the urge is that strong, everything else is kind of atomized. So I didn't really think about anything other than I want this baby. And I thought about it, yes, hands up entirely in terms of what it would mean for me. I hadn't thought for a moment, should I have done? Obviously, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the urge was too great. Sheila, you're a child psychologist so you know is this something we should be thinking about i suppose you can come

at it from that angle but also being a mother with an age gap between your twins and your younger son as well i mean in terms of it's interesting what ang raises, because in terms of the age gap, there are benefits to having a gap between children. So older children are generally more nurturing towards a much younger sibling, whereas children who are close in age, although they can be playmates, studies have shown they're also more competitive. The downside of that is when those older children become adults and leave home, some of that nurturing towards the younger sibling is lost. And that actually creates a gap in the family, not just in terms of the system that's connected, one family member's left and that system has to change because it's been disrupted. But it is a huge loss to the younger sibling who's had that extra older sibling there to both nurture them and entertain them and sometimes look after

them when parents go out and suddenly that child maybe feels a lot more alone in the family than they did before and routines can change sorry sorry just some routines change when family members become families become smaller so sometimes families will say they don't have the same kind of meals together that they used to have for example because there's not such a sense of a big family. And lots of changes can leave the child feeling actually they've lost an ally. They've lost somebody who maybe was a confidant in the family. Yeah, we've had quite a big response to this from our listeners. And Emma got in touch with us on Instagram and she says, my sister is 15 years older.

When I was younger, I didn't really know her, but we are good friends now. So I suppose, Angela, there's light at the end of the tunnel there that things can get better, isn't there? Yes, of course. And the thing is what I would say and absolutely, you know, support what Sheila has just sort of pointed out is that it's not all grey or dark. Sophie's very close to her older brothers. They are very protective. She loves to be with them. I mean, two, one lives abroad now. He's honestly, you know, he's just finished university and two are married and live 200 miles away in London. We live in Manchester. And, you know, so when we come together as a family, it's super special. She talks to them as confidants that they're not in loco parentis

by any means but um on the one hand she goes into little sister mode um and on the other hand they they have that slightly adult way too so that i'm not saying it's a kind of you know it's all one way or the other um but i do think that there have been times and i've been very conscious of it when i'm sort of been thinking over this now that it has been harder for her look she's not had to go down a coal mine at the age of 13 I mean have some perspective on this but you know I think things like family holidays when she feels like she's been trailing around with mum and dad um and when there are three of us around the dinner table we what we might think of what we can give you all this attention might sometimes you know elicit a little bit of um sad maybe sadness to say yeah but it's so much nicer when all the seats are filled yeah um and she and like I said she's a very thoughtful

young lady she's not said this to make me feel bad she just she speaks as she finds but as I say you know kids can say stuff to you and think, wow, I really hadn't considered that at all. Yeah. Sheila, in your role as a child psychologist, can you tell us how much weight we should actually put into this? There was a few studies, I think, that suggested there's a link between the age gap and our personalities. And actually that age gap can impact who we are as people? I mean, I think those studies show very different results, because of course, it depends on the individual and on the relationship that the child has, the youngest child has with their older siblings. It could be very close. It could obviously be quite a competitive relationship. So I wouldn't want to draw generalisations. But I think what

needs recognising is that it is a loss and particularly during Covid when whole families were quarantining together that actually caused some families to be even closer and relationships even closer so when the older child did leave at the end of that prolonged period of togetherness it caused quite a lot of difficulties for the younger child so something about really just getting in touch as parents or carers with that young child's experience is really important and and the adult parent doesn't replicate the sibling so it's not just a case of if you've lost a sibling it's okay because you've got us they need somebody who feels more like an ally and that might need to be a friend to replace that that lost experience of the sibling or just

to keep in touch I think there's something about recognizing that younger siblings still need to keep in touch with their older adult siblings when they've left home. It's not the end of the relationship because they've moved away. So keeping connected is really, really important. And also just scheduling in some time when that youngest child who's perhaps left on their own has something special just for them because they are experiencing a loss of something. Yes. Dr. Sheila Redfern. I'm afraid time is up against us, Angela Epstein, but thank you very much for providing your insights and telling us about your family. And also thank you to Dr. Sheila Redfern, who is a child psychologist. And we've had lots of response from our listeners this morning on this very subject. Someone saying, I have two sisters, one who is two years younger than me and the other 14 and a half years younger. My youngest sister is completely amazing and we are very close. We

know we have always got each other's back. And because I was her guardian when my children were small, we are very much alike in many ways. She is closer to my children's age and is regarded more of their sibling than their aunt, especially by my two sons. That's all from Woman's Hour this morning. We're back tomorrow. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Video games can be fun. Restart on BBC Sounds. They can also be a danger to your child. We sent him to a rehab facility for teenagers addicted to video games.

What's going on? Stop me! Stop! A new thriller from the makers of The Cipher. Everything and everyone you need in life is right here. Do you want to hear a secret? I understand there's another part of the camp. What exactly happens there?

Wait, wait, what are the rules? I don't know what game we are playing. What are you going to do? Restart. Play the game to the end. Available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.