Woman's Hour - Actor Juliet Stevenson. 40 years after Adrian Mole the legacy of Sue Townsend. Paralympian now dancer Ellie Simmonds

Episode Date: October 13, 2022

The Doctor’ first opened at the Almeida in 2019 Juliet Stevenson’s performance was described as ‘one of the peaks of the theatrical year’. Now on stage in London’s West End the play has again been highly applauded by the critics. Juliet joins Emma Barnett to discuss playing Dr Ruth Wolff, medical ethics, identity politics, anti-Semitism, media witch hunts and the way institutions protect themselves against criticism.It’s been 40 years since The Secret Diary Of Adrian Mole Aged 13 ¾ by Sue Townsend was published. On New Year’s Day 1981 Adrian lives in Leicester. His parent’s relationship is rocky, money is tight. He is worried about his spots and the length of his penis and he yearns for Pandora a girl from school who is from the posh part of town. Joining Emma are Dr Emma Parker, Associate Professor of English working on Twentieth Century women’s writing at Leicester University and the writer Cathy Rentzenbrink. What does the diary of a teenage boy tell us about the lives of girls and women in the early 80's?We hear from the Miriam Cates, MP for Penistone and Stocksbridge who yesterday at PMQ's asked Liz Truss about the charity Mermaids which offers support around gender and identity to children and young people up to 25 years old and is currently the subject of a regulatory compliance case by the Charity Commission. Plus Paralympian swimmer Ellie Simmonds talks about her Strictly Come Dancing journey and the impact of the online trolling she's received since taking part in the show.Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell PHOTO CREDIT. Ruth Wolff

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. My goodness, it is so very good to be back with you after the vomiting bug from hell, so please forgive my absence for the last few days, but it wouldn't have been fun for anyone and it definitely would have included a felt-lined bin next to the microphone. I did once do that in a previous radio job, but the less said about that, again, the better.

I was helped by a lovely doctor. And as it happens, my first guest this morning, the actor Juliet Stevenson, is playing one on stage at the moment. But I shan't be asking her about any of my ailments. Instead, we shall try to address some of the ailments affecting all of us, affecting society. So do stay with us for that. Also taking time out from the dance floor, the gold medal winning Paralympian swimmer Ellie Simmons will be here fresh from the Strictly Ballroom.

And while the prime minister faced a lot of fire from the opposing benches in yesterday's prime minister's questions, she also faced some tough questions from her own side and continues to do so. But going back to yesterday's PMQ session, there was one about the Charity Commission's look at the transgender youth support charity Mermaids. The MP who put that particular question to Liz Truss will be joining me shortly. But let me ask you this, and I'm pretty positive the Prime Minister already is doing this. Do you keep a diary? Have you ever? What's it like in there? Why do you do it? And maybe you used to do it and you don't do it anymore. I'd love to hear your relationship with diaries.

Did you have a teenage one? I did, and I recently refound it. It's not a pretty read. Personally, I seem to only ever write one when things are going wrong. But I'm asking because it's 40 years, believe it or not, since Sue Townsend brought us the secret diary of Adrian Moll, aged 13 and three quarters. And a shiny new edition is out today. We'll be reflecting on that and Sue's work later on in the programme. But in the meantime, diaries, yours, why? What do they mean? And has anyone ever read yours who shouldn't have? Come on, you can tell me.

What did it say? 84844 is the number you need to text the programme on social media at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply, so do think about using Wi-Fi if you can. But first, to Juliet Stevenson,

presently starring in The Doctor in London's West End, where this production is receiving rave reviews. It's got medical ethics, identity politics, anti-Semitism, media witch hunts, and an exploration of the way institutions protect themselves. Her character, Dr Ruth Wolfe, runs a prestigious institute specialising in Alzheimer's. But when she prevents a priest seeing a 14-year-old girl dying from a self-administered abortion, the incident goes viral on social media, provoking petitions and TV debates and jeopardising Ruth's future, pitting medicine against religion.

Here in this clip, Dr Ruth is in debate with the priest, explaining why she refuses to let him see the young girl. I'm sorry, sir, but I really have no way of knowing whether she last attended your church in a christening gown. The only thing that's relevant here is what she herself believes, and I don't know. I don't know if you've ever met her. I'm a liar? Shall we go in and ask Amber?

No, she isn't expecting your visit. She hasn't asked for your visit, and she's delirious. She's dreaming. She only half knows she's here in hospital, and she thinks she's going to be fine. And I am crystal clear that if we snap her out of that state, we cause her significant distress. Mae'n mynd i fod yn iawn. Ac rwy'n glir iawn, os ydym yn ei ddod o'r staten honno, byddwn yn cael ymdrin sylweddol. Rydych yn ei gwybod ei bod yn marw, yna mae'n panic. Mae hynny'n achosi ymdrin ffisiologol. Mwy o dymun ar ei gwrthdaro, a nifer o bethau eraill

nad yw hi'n gallu cael eu llwyddo. Beth ydych yn dweud? Rwy'n dweud, rydych yn mynd i mewn fel y Rhym Rhyper ac nid yw modd i hi, yn ei gynaliad honno, marw heb ymdrin a'i ymdrin. Dwi'n meddwl beth mae hynny am fi, y byddwch yn meddwl fy mod i'n ddim yn gyfadwy. Brifysgol, a allaf i'ch cyhoeddi? No way that she, in her current condition, can die without panic and distress. I wonder what it is about me that you think I'm so incompetent. Professor, can I borrow you? One minute, Paul.

I'm sorry. Is there any chance she might be cured? No. There's always a chance. The award-winning actor Juliet Stevenson is with me in the studio. Good morning. Good morning. Is she right or is she wrong? Ah, well, I think...

I don't think the play actually makes decisions like that. I think it really is, that event happens at the beginning. And then, as you said in your introduction, it sort of spirals out and out and out into the world of publicity and social media and so on. And everybody has a view whether or not they know the facts. And of course, very few people were actually there to witness the event, but they have a view. And that really depends on your point of view and the lens through which you look at the event. And that's really what's being explored. She's so certain, though, isn't she, that she's doing the right thing by her patient.

That's very, very clear. At the beginning, she is playing it by what she sees as the rules and what she needs to do? Well, she's playing it by her rule in the sense that she's desperate to give this 14-year-old who she cannot save, who's dying of this botched abortion, has sepsis. She can't save her life, so she wants to give her a peaceful death. She has her own private reasons, the doctor, Ruth, for that because, as we later discover, she has a relationship you know she lost somebody her very

beloved partner and was not able to give that peaceful end to the partner so there is her her view which appears to be objective and professional in relation to this young girl has in fact a subjective and sort of personal um uh ingredient to it but i I think in terms, when Ruth defines herself as a doctor, she's also a woman, Jewish, an atheist, white, European, educated, a meat eater, childless, you know, there are many, many, many identities. But she just insists that her only identity is that of a doctor. And along those lines, she gives herself the prerogative, the right to say, this is the rule, this is what's going to happen in my hospital. She also rails against the idea that any of those other bits of her identity should be relevant.

And you can argue they shouldn't be in medicine. Well, yes. I mean, she's not a moral heroine. She's not the heroine of the play. She is the protagonist. But it's not that she's right and everybody else is wrong. By no, no means. I mean, what the play brilliantly does

is that you see this incident near the beginning of the show and then it's like a sort of prism that keeps turning and you see a different facet of this story, different repercussions, different resonances. And because the show is cast the way it is, where people are cast against their type, so we mix up gender, we mix up race, ethnicity, sexual orientation and so on.

So people in the audience don't quite know the identities of the actors, of the characters, rather, until they're revealed as the show goes on. So people are judging, the audience are judging these events without quite knowing. They don't have that clarity, that certainty of knowing that she's a woman, you know, he's black, he's white, he's, you know, they're judging something just on the basis of the events and what is said and done. And then they discover later, you know, what those identities are. So it's a fantastically playful and theatrical way of looking at how we assess and judge things and how we react based on identity. Has it made you think differently to bring it back to

doctors just for a moment because of course after the pandemic through the pandemic still with with how Covid is now we have lived our lives at the moment really in the hands of the doctors and the scientists as well as the politicians has it made you think differently about how we view doctors? I think I mean I have several doctor friends, and I think it's extremely difficult time for them because I'm a passionate supporter of the NHS. I don't have private medicine. And, you know, during the pandemic, we all clapped on Thursdays and doctors were our heroes, saving lives and battling against all sorts of unbelievable odds at their own huge cost and nurses too and now you know with many surgeries going online and these terrible waiting lists

which are nothing to do with doctors really they're really to do with the appalling sort of lack of funding to the NHS they they they're now getting vilified there's also an argument about the structures of the NHS how trusts are run we've also, because we've also seen scandals in maternity care. And we've also heard about stories which are not to do with funding, as well as many of it being to do with funding. It's actually about the way these things are run. But I suppose what I'm driving at is the culture that surrounds doctors and how much we trust them. I'm thinking of this because last week on the programme, we had a major, I mean, I've never seen so many emails and texts and response to a woman came on, a journalist called Meripy Mills. Her daughter, Martha, who's 13, died a totally preventable death, which the hospital have taken responsibility for.

I don't expect you to know the ins and outs of the case. No, I read the article. I read her article, yeah. A lot of people had and then she very bravely came on to talk about it. But she doesn't feel she said enough or was listened to. And what I invited was not something against the doctors, but to talk about how we, because of the NHS and our love for the NHS, sometimes have too much deference for doctors. Possibly, but I think this play doesn't really go into that.

It's not a play about whether or not we should trust doctors. It's one incident, which isn't actually a medical incident, really. It's about wanting to give a girl her view of a peaceful end and denying her religious practitioner access to her because I didn't know whether she was or wasn't a Catholic. So it's not really about medical ethics. No, I accept that, but it's about trusting doctors' judgment as well, though, because that's a judgment that is made, can't be undone.

And that's throughout the book. It is. And when the child's father arrives raging, you know, and accusing the hospital of killing his daughter, of course, they didn't. She was dying anyway. But I do understand that, you know, of course, there are many, many appalling tragedies where. But it isn't really what this show is about. It's much, much more about. It's a thriller, really. It's about, you know, you don't really what this show is about. It's much, much more about, it's a thriller really. It's about, you know, you don't know what's happening. It's about some extraordinary, it's really looking at the forces that shape our lives

in terms of social media and identity. And I want to come to that, but just one more on another big theme which is in there because I'm also thinking about what the country has been through, which is grief. you know the grief is running throughout this whole play your character's grieving the the family of the girl is grieving and and I wonder I know you've also had a personal experience very recently as a family of grief as many have um you may wish to talk about that may not but I wonder for you how it was to do this play at this time.

Yes, well, we first did this show in 2019 and we're about to take it into the West End when lockdown happened. So there's been two and a half years since we, it's been waiting to come back into the West End. And yes, in that time, we have lost two members of our family, very, very, you know, which so so and we've all the whole country has been through this extraordinary period which as you say includes a lot of grief i mean my so it's been extraordinary to come back to it my mum died earlier this year of dementia and my

character in the play is researching a cure for alzheimer's and her own partner has died of alzheimer's so there are strange personal resonances. But I think much more importantly, it's a play. I mean, you can feel a sort of hunger coming off audiences who I think are perhaps or have experienced a kind of grief. And it's not necessarily for lost loss of being able to share points of view. You know, I mean, whatever happened to the phrase agreeing to disagree? You know, we're now living in a culture where people are scared to say what they think for fear of, you know, violent opposition or being criticized or at worst cancelled. We seem to be losing freedom of speech, even freedom of thought. And I think there is a sort of collective grief about that. You know, where are our communities? When we were going to the pub, the youth center, the library, when we had high streets where people would bump into each other, our communities were actual. And you could live alongside people who were not the same faith or not the same opinion. And we muddle

along together. And now most of our communities are online, or many of them are. And we tend to sort of settle into a community online that shares our point of view communities are online, or many of them are, and we tend to sort of settle into a community online that shares our point of view, and therefore we become extremely hostile to other points of view. And that's really a very, very corrosive and terrifying development, I think. And I think that audiences come into this theatre hungry for the opportunity to hear all points of view in safety, you know, at no risk to themselves. What do you mean in safety? Well, because they come into this theatre hungry for the opportunity to hear all points of view in safety, you know,

at no risk to themselves. What do you mean in safety? Well, because they come into the theatre and they can, all these points of view can be aired in a theatre, in the dark, collectively together. It doesn't cost them anything. It's not any risk to them, but they can hear these points of view being aired and then they leave. And there's this incredible debate. I mean, I meet people on the street after the show, desperate to talk about it with completely different responses and opinions to what they've seen. You know, it's thrilling. It's so exciting. Do you feel in your life that people are not sharing their views anymore? Yeah, absolutely. People are scared to talk about all sorts of things, both to do with personal identity or in the world, you know, because of the fear of repercussions, of being condemned, of being... And while it's very important to learn how to respect all,

you know, every single, you know, member of this country's population, it's also very important that we learn how to live alongside difference and otherness and people who we don't agree with. So you think in the two years of the delay, which was, of course, impacted again by the pandemic with this place, that bit's got more relevant? I do think so. I mean, you know, we can all name people who have suffered from cancel culture. And I think that, you know, people being destroyed because of a point of view is something we should be looking at and questioning, perhaps. Has it made you no longer, I mean, you've been a campaigner, you are involved

with activism. Has it made you think twice about putting your head above the paraphrase? Yes, of course. Of course it does. I mean, if I feel I'm too scared to say something, I check why I'm scared. And then I think, okay, well, I don't want to be frightened of that. So I made a decision to speak up anyway, or I may not. But of course, because, you know, I mean, I left Twitter, you know, I couldn't stand it any longer. And yeah, and I think many people feel that. I mean, I'm only looking at the headlines this week, of course, JK Rowling, her response to sharing her views about policies,

for instance, designed with trans people in mind. Some people won't even say her name. But the reason she's back in the headlines this week is rarely this happens, but Tom Felton, who played Malfoy in Harry Potter, says he feels no one has single-handedly done more for bringing joy to so many different generations than Harry Potter author J.K. Rowling.

He actually said that. We've got to a place now where if you've even worked with somebody where they have a view that might not be yours or might be different, people are no longer mentioning them. I mean, in the arts, it's a very strange time. It is. It is a very strange time. I mean, I think, you know, we, this country is a multicultural country, multi-faith. We've been that way for a long time now. And I think that freedom of speech is something that we have to really, really treasure.

If you look around the world, increasingly autocratic, despotic, brutal regimes are coming into power where freedom of speech is absolutely impossible. We have it in this country and we have to fight for it. And we must not be destroying it ourselves. We must cherish it. We must cherish all of our national institutions and cultural values. You know, freedom of speech is a very, very precious thing. And you only have to look at people. I mean, I've had a Belarusian refugee in my house.

He, you know, he had to leave his country. He would be imprisoned and tortured if he gave his opinion on that appalling regime. So I live, you know, somebody's been living in our house whose life would be at risk if he voiced his opinion. He's come to this country where he can say whatever he likes. We have to cherish that, I think. And I think the play is an exploration of,

it's a sort of reminder, I think, to everybody that, you know, that it's, I think the theatricality of the experience is that everybody comes into that theatre, sits down in the dark, and they can safely see all those points of view explored and they can have strong feelings and responses, which they do according to who they are, whether they're Jewish or Catholic or white or black or whatever.

But it's safe to do so, you know, and I think that's why this play is offering quite a unique experience. But I suppose using, you know, your experience of hosting a Belarusian, it is still safe a lot of the time to say things. It's just you will feel the heat, I suppose. You're not often in a situation where you feel you may be mentally very deeply affected, but we are still living in a society where you feel that. Well, people lose jobs. People lose jobs. People lose careers.

You know, people lose friendships. And going back to what you said about you, because I think people are always interested if you have been scared of yourself. Have you then, when you've checked why you're scared to say something, have you then gone on to say it? Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes I have and sometimes I haven't. I mean, I do think, you know,

that fear is something you have to look at in yourself and say, well, if I don't speak up about this and it's okay for me to because I'm reasonably protected, I'm privileged, you know. If I don't, who, you know, who can? I mean, I have, you know, my I don't, who, you know, who can? I mean, I have, you know, my privileges, it protects me in all sorts of ways. But of course, no, I have been scared. And I have I did leave most social media for that reason. I just thought this is no longer what I thought it was. I thought it would be naively, I thought it would be an

interesting debating chamber. I love following certain people on Twitter. I came off it because I thought, no, it's not, it's really not. It's a very vicious place. Well, you've also said you love risk. So I think it's interesting to hear even you have been scared and not said certain things at certain points. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you also said you're terrified of being boring. And I don't think anyone can accuse you of that. So just reminding myself, we have something called Listener Week on Women's Hour. And I remember one of the most talked about topics this year was when someone got in touch to talk about the joy of doing trapeze.

And is it right, you've got some experience of this from time on stage? I did. Your whole face is just lit up. I did a show called Wings at the Young Vic, which was about a woman who'd had a stroke. And the director and designer had this brilliant idea that people talk about stroke being your whole life is suspended. So they took that word suspended and took it very, very literally and I was literally suspended on a trapeze, on a sort of, yeah, in a harness up in the, high up in the air

and most of the play was conducted by swinging around up there. It was such fun. How was it? Did you feel something from doing it? Oh my God, I loved it. I loved it. So I had to get seriously fit, which of course I then immediately stopped when the show finished.

But it was such, such fun. Yeah, it was amazing. Yeah. Well, people say take it up at any age. Yeah, I mean, I was 60 when I did that show. Sure, anybody can, yeah. And also recently married. Yes, yes.

I should say congratulations. I mean, lots of people now doing it because they've been delayed maybe for two years, but yours is a bit longer. Oh, we delayed it for 29 years. Yeah, no, we never got around to it, but we finally did last December, yeah. Oh, well, congratulations.

Thank you. Did you have reservations about the institution? I did. I did when I was younger. Sure, I did. I mean, I grew up, you know, as a young woman thinking I'm not going to do any of those things that women expect. You know, my generation, we were all expected to do quite conventional things as young women. And I didn't want to do any of them. So marriage was not an institution I ever aspired to. How's it been treating you since? said do you feel different i think actually no

i don't feel at all different but i kind of um yeah no it's it was really lovely the kids came and it was very small but no i felt you know i was very happy to stand up and say to the world this is the person um i've checked him out for a couple of decades and we're all right yeah yeah i've checked him out yeah yeah i think i didn't want to rush into it but i think it's i think it's i think he's the one talking of difference sharon says uh can i thank you juliet for expressing your observations about society i couldn't agree with what she's saying more we must learn to mix with people who are not mirror images of ourselves surely that is the only way forward for us all thank you to juliet thank you to women's hour and yes we, says Natalie, grieving communities

lamenting free speech. A pleasure to hear her. And we also have, I have to say, many messages coming in and I'll just make sure I ask you the same question about diaries. Do you keep a diary? No, I don't. I did for a long time. I mean, I recently dug up my mum died this year and I was looking

she kept all my old stuff and I looked at all her schoolgirl diaries that I've kept. I mean, they're so boring. They're absolutely outrageous. They're all about hating people and loving people. There's no grey area at all. No, no. It's hilarious.

It is one of those things. It's meant to make you feel better, but sometimes can make you feel worse if you go over it. I mean, it's an interesting relationship. The very first message we had was from someone who said, my brother read my diary when I was 13. I mean, it's an interesting relationship. The very first message we had was from someone who said, my brother read my diary when I was 13. I have not kept one since. The difficulty when you have children is not reading their diaries. You mustn't, absolutely must not, but it's extremely difficult not to when you're a bit worried when they get into their teens and you think, and it's lying in a bedside table. You think, shall I just have a quick peek

and find out what they're up to? You did, didn't you? No, no, I didn't. Nobody believes that. The fact, the lady doth protest too much. The fact that you just brought that up of your own vision. Spot the lie in this conversation. I tried not to. That's a whole other question.

Have you read your children's diaries? Come on, do let me know. It's very good to have you on the programme. We've covered an enormous amount of ground, like your work always does, but in particular this play. Juliet Stevenson, thank you so much. I know you've got to go and do it all again this evening. The Doctor is on at the Duke of York Theatre in London. All the best.

Thank you, Emma. Thanks, Emma. Doctor, we'll see you. That's the point. That is the point. More messages to your diaries. Let me just come to it. I've kept a diary since i was 12 i'm now 72 not all that interesting more a record of what i did on the day and the weather etc interesting record of the tv and pop music though like deciding not to see the beatles in southport where i lived even though the tickets were cheap five-year diaries are really good to look back on another one i wrote about losing my virginity in my diary age 17 my mother read it and she was furious. She didn't like the boy. Here we go, mother's

reading diaries. I was just as furious that she read it. We did not speak for a week. Sarah, I would have strung that out a bit longer. Another one, I wrote a diary as a teenager and uncovered them only recently. I read some parts of them and the content was just awful. So I burnt them. Wow. I'm 52 years old. I was inspired by Sue Townsend, Adrian Mole, which is the conversational sort of peg for this in my teenage years. This led me to keeping a diary from the age of 13 to 16. I still have it. I'm in touch with my friends from that time. We often dig it out and wet ourselves over the school entries, detentions, winding up teachers, our crushes I've written every day for the last 17 years, shelves

of things and in great detail. To me, a diary is the closest thing we have to a time machine, says Amanda in East Sussex. Thank you so much for that. Keep those messages coming in. There are many more to come too. I don't know if my next guest is keeping a diary, but she's certainly doing something quite different at the moment. We're going to

shimmy over to the nation's favourite TV ballroom, Strictly Come Dancing. It may seem all sparkles and glitter, but for the celebrity contestants, it's a pretty major step out of their comfort zones. As my next guest knows all too well, I'm talking about the Paralympic gold medal winner swimmer, Ellie Simmons, who swapped the swimming pool for the dance floor. Ellie, good morning. Good morning. No, good morning. Good morning. No, I do keep a diary. I've kept a diary for years and years,

and also a diary to help me know where I've got to be every single day. They do help. They do. They do. And your diary, I'm sure, is filled with quite different entries at the moment. How are you finding it? Yeah, it is. It's totally different to what I used to do.

Dancing every single day, Monday to Saturday, 9 till nine till six many hours but it's so fun it's so different but it's incredible to be part of this show and to be learning to dance every single day and then Saturday night we go and dance for the nation but it's all all totally different from swimming I'm used to well now I'm I'm in glitter hair makeup fake tan it's hair, makeup, fake tan. It's so fun. Oh, the fake tan. How are your bed sheets smelling and faring in all of this? Well, luckily enough, I'm not sleeping in my bed.

I'm sleeping in a hotel bed. So it's their sheets. But if it was mine, definitely. They are getting orange. And I'm used to the smell now as well. So, yeah. But it's nice just to get a bit of colour. We actually used to do it quite some years ago back in in rio era and we used to fake tan because yeah if you've

got a tan you feel good about yourself you feel confident so i know that once i've got the tan on friday you've got your hair done you've got your makeup your costume ready on saturday night you feel good about yourself to go out there and dance for the nation but I just thank the costume the makeup the hair department here on Strictly are all just so talented and make us feel like new new people every Saturday night and it's I'm so thankful for them so you've not been in an outfit that you can't abide yet nothing that you despise too much no no there isn't no I'm like at the start actually it's so funny at the start of the Strictly journey I was like could only have a few individual last years I'm only going to go like the lightest tan I only want a bit of makeup and then each week I'm getting

more and more I'm definitely feeling this Strictly spirit and getting like Strictly-fied each week on week I'm like last Saturday I had a wig so it's getting more and more. So I'm definitely going on that glamour and the hair and the makeup journey throughout the dancing journey as well. Well, never forget, Dolly Parton said, the bigger the hair, the closer to God, regardless of your beliefs. It's an important quote to have in mind maybe when you're on

Strictly Come Dancing. Yeah, no, I'll definitely think about that on Saturday. Why did you want to do it though? You're obviously well attuned to being in training schedules, but you don't have to do this, so why choose to do it? No, I think after retiring from the sport last year, having a year to figure things out, to take all those opportunities, and when I got asked to do this, I was like, why not?

This is so different. Yes, it's way out of comfort zone but it's it's something so new an opportunity to learn how to dance like I love dancing that's on a Saturday night or with my friends but you're learning from a pro every single day I've watched strictly for years and years it's a show that I've just loved from that from September leading into Christmas it's that Christmas tradition like the lead up to family tradition. So when I got asked, I thought, why say no? Just go for it. Oh, I can think of many reasons to say no,

Ellie. I mean, that might just be me. Apart from the amount of time it takes, you know, the fear of looking like you don't know what you're doing, number one. Yeah, there's definitely that fear. I think we all feel it on Saturday night. We're going way out of our comfort zones

we're dancing we're learning a new routine from Monday to Thursday it's there's a lot of fears and I think that's with everything in life isn't it when you're trying something new there's always that self-doubt and can I do this can I not and we're human at the end of the day like I had it last Saturday like there was a few bits of the routine I just totally messed up I just totally didn't do but also I put my hand up and said yeah like give myself credit I'm learning a new dance every single week and but it's just human isn't it and yeah it's nerve-wracking and but also the the nerves the joy of the the show the joy of being strictly the joy of everything that it brings is outweighs all of that and yes it nerve-wracking, but also it's so exciting and incredible to be part of.

You've also talked and you've been open about some of the reaction, definitely not the majority, as you're saying here, that you received when you first were announced as a contestant, the competition's first contestant with dwarfism. You were talking about the importance of representation, but also some of the negativity that had come. And I'm just minded of what my previous guest was saying, Juliet Stevenson, about how negative it can be on social media. And she's talked about, you know, you just heard it.

She talked about coming off social media because she just doesn't like the atmosphere, doesn't feel it's a place for positivity or debate or being around people you don don't necessarily agree with how has that side of it been for you yeah it's been different and it's been like you're thrust into limelight i think we know how big strictly is but i think until you're in it you realize actually how big it is like every time you go out everyone recognizes you for strictly and for your dance and even this morning i was having breakfast and people were coming over and stuff. And I think it comes with it. But also the amount of support that we've had when I got announced and throughout the journey so far with me and Nikita, the outpour that we've had of love and support has been amazing. And I think sometimes you attach yourself to that one negative comment.

Oh, always. You can have so many positive comments can't you and then one comes in and it and it sticks with you yeah and it's it's strange that we think like that because actually all the love and the joy that we get in and all of that but then you do attach yourself to that one negative comment and it can bring it down but you just try and like take yourself away and think I'm doing it for, and I'm so proud I'm doing it for me, and I'm doing it for all the individuals with dwarfism and the disability community, because especially the dwarfism community.

I've had people, not just from the UK, worldwide reach out to me, and it just means so much. And I think when you do realise that, actually, you're not just doing it for yourself, but you're doing it for so many other people out there, I think it makes you more motivated, makes you more proud to stand up tall. And yes, there's those comments saying, why is she dancing? How can she dance?

What do they say? Is it questions or is it an attack? It's a bit of both. But at the end of the day, it's's like people speak don't they we everyone i'm sure out there when they're in the limelight or not even in the limelight in this there's always those people who want to say what they think every single day and but i just try and think of the positive comments of comments of people saying like oh they're seeing a person with dwarfism on a saturday night show and my daughter is seeing herself on tv and i think wow like that's so powerful that's i'm doing it for those people

i'm doing it for everyone out there and i think sometimes when i think about it really deeply it gets me so emotional because it is like it is really like i forget sometimes that actually so many people watching that yeah can it's changing people's lives and I I feel incredibly grateful to be part of that and doing that because I remember when I was a kid and I looked up to the likes of Naira Lewis or saw Paralympians or like it changed my life I wouldn't be here today without that and I think we we're in a world now we're accepting change and to be part of that in a minuscule way is just, like, yeah, an honour. What would it have meant to you, do you think,

to have been able to watch someone like yourself on TV, dancing on a Saturday night when you were growing up? It would have meant everything. And I think we've seen that in the past with Strictly, haven't we? We rose last year with JJ, with Johnny, Lauren, Will. I think a powerful TV show like strictly which is incredible to be part of but incredible like support and stuff and what they're doing to change society and acceptance of people being different and we see it like now with like jade

and karen and ricky and giovanni and and john and johannes last year and stuff like it's so powerful what they're doing and it's like credit to Strictly they are amazing and so supportive as well and it's not just about Saturday night but I've never been on a TV show or that supported me so much behind closed doors making me sure sure I'm okay like they've got me a railing just that that's a bit smaller so I don't have to like climb up everywhere and in and it's just those little things that they're doing that just makes it for me feel even more comfortable and I think if we all did that just those little things it will just help society and help us all

just feel yeah more accepted good luck don't get anything wrong this week I mean no pressure I'm doing the salsa so it's very much all about sass all about hits just going out there and dancing away and just having the time of my life which i am doing loving every single second so yeah what shade of orange this week on the on the old tan have we gone for oh well um i'll see i'll see how i feel tomorrow i didn't go any actually last week just because i was in 1920s 1930s character um but this week I'll definitely be going a bit of time because I'm going to be imagining I'm in a party in Mexico um and just having a having some tequila having like a time of my life

that's what my head will be thinking well that's good to know and know. And I was just going to say, when you watched the programme before you appeared on it, I presume you were a fan. Oh, huge fan. Did you used to dance in the living room while watching it? Not actually, no. I used to just be like, come on. I loved Danny Mac way back with Oti and then Bill and Oti as well and then watching The Lights of Johnny and Rose last year.

But no, I definitely, I could not believe I would be doing it in a couple of years time when I was watching that. But no, I just used to think, come on, like you always used to have your favourites and things and just think judges, come on

and all that type of stuff. And the glitter ball and the glam and all that. I think it's a wonderful vision to think of millions of people up and down the UK and, you know, I know it's got global popularity as well, but sitting on their sofas

on a Saturday night, sitting down, watching people move. When actually, we don't get enough opportunities to dance, especially when we're older. So it's a kind of, I always like imagining

what people really do when they watch people moving. And I wondered if you've been someone around your living room. But now you're on the stage, you're on the ballroom itself. Ellie Simmons, lovely to catch up with you. I'm sorry to have broken into your regime. Oh, no, thank you. I'm back to training now.

And if anyone is watching on a Saturday night, yeah, definitely get up there and dance with us and feel the music. Ellie, thank you. And we'll think of those poor hotel bedsheets. Ellie Simmons there. Off to compete and keep competing in Strictly Come Dancing. Well, to a whole other type of competition, the political competition, the political theatre. Prime Minister Liz Truss is coming under more pressure from some of her own MPs to rethink tax cuts

announced in last month's mini-budget. More details of that to come. Her Foreign Secretary, James Cleverley, has insisted the government will stick to its current economic plans in order to grow the economy. Also told my colleagues on the Today programme that changing the current leadership would be a disastrously bad idea politically and also economically. This follows the Prime Minister's first meeting with the 1922 Committee of Backbenchers yesterday. According to an MP present, Robert Halfon, former minister who chairs the Education Select Committee, he told Liz Truss that in the last 10 years, we had the living wage, a focus on apprenticeships and skills, contrasting that with

bankers' bonuses, benefits cuts and now cuts to affordable housing targets. Liz Tr trust also faced Prime Minister's questions in the House of Commons yesterday, for the first time since revealing the mini-budget almost three weeks ago. It's customary for there to be some friendlier questions coming from your own benches at PMQs, some saying these did not materialise. Instead, difficult questions, one of which was this. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Over the past week, serious safeguarding failures by the children's charity Mermaids have come to light.

Revelations for the charity sent breast-flattening devices to young girls behind their parents' back, promoted harmful medical and surgical procedures to children, hired a trustee with links to paedophile organisations, and a digital engagement manager who posted pornographic images online, sefydliadau pedafil a rheolwr ymgysylltiad digidol a chyflwyno ddau ddifonogol yn y llinell, gan gynnwys ei hun yn codi fel gwbl yn ysgol. Ers blynyddoedd, er bod ysgogwyr yn cyhoeddi awyr, mae gwerthfawrogi wedi cael mynediad i blant anodd. A ydy'n ymgysylltad fy mhrif ffrind yn cytuno bod y penderfyniadau hyn wedi'u cymryd yn llawer o amser i'w

gynnal yn gywir? A ydy'n ymgysylltad hefyd bod amser yn cael eu cymryd yn dda iawn. A ydy hi hefyd yn cytuno bod amser uchel i ymchwil polis i mewn i gweithgareddau mermaidd a'u stafell? Yr hyn sy'n bwysig yw bod tîmau o fewn 18 yn gallu datblygu eu gallu gwneud penderfyniadau a ddim yn cael eu gwneud yn ymwneud â phethau. and making capabilities and not be forced into any kind of activity. And what I would say on the subject of the investigation she raises, of course those matters should be raised and should be properly looked at. Let's trust that. Responding to Miriam Cates, MP for Peniston and Stocksbridge,

who was asking about the charity Mermaids, which has been in the news for the last few weeks following a Telegraph investigation which claimed that the charity was supporting breast binders to children without parental consent. These are devices used to bind up the breasts in order to give the appearance of a flatter chest. Mermaids offer support around gender and identity to children and young people up to 25 years old

and are presently subject to a regulatory compliance case by the Charity Commission. Miriam joins me now. Good morning. Good morning. Why put this question down? Well, as you said, over the last week or so, some very serious revelations about mermaids have come to light in the mainstream media.

But actually, these safeguarding concerns have been flagged by parents and whistleblowers for years now. And those parents have been largely ignored. And so I think we have an opportunity now with the stories that are in the press to really take this further and investigate hopefully mermaids and what's been going on, because it's absolutely devastating what is happening to our children. And yes, I'm a Conservative MP, but I'm also a mum, I'm a former teacher, and I'm in touch with parents up and down the country who tell me the most awful, heartbreaking stories about what's happening to their children. Here's an email, just one that I received last night of many, many that I've received. My daughter has been stolen from me by this ideology.

I will never forgive the teachers, social workers, doctors and other adults who unquestioningly accepted her new identity. They undermined me and drove a wedge between me and my daughter. I haven't seen or spoken to her for 10 months. She's 18 next week and I don't even have an address to send her a card and I have got hundreds of stories from parents who tell how their children have spoken to mermaids or gone online with mermaids or had mermaids visit them in school or other organizations because there are others have been told that the answer to their teenage problems is to change sex that their parents are bigoted that their parents don't know anything that they've been led down the path of medical and surgical transition. You know, some have ended up buying hormones on

the internet and ended up infertile or girls with deep voices and stubble for life. Now, this is an enormous safeguarding scandal that we have missed for years. So I'm pleased it's coming to light, but we need to go the full way and investigate it. We've only had one government in charge in all that time. If you say it's a huge scandal that's been missed, there's no one else. If you if you're correct of course which i'll test a little bit in a moment if i may but we've only got the conservatives that's been in charge you're absolutely right emma and you know i'm as i said i've not really come on this program to defend the conservatives uh obviously i am a conservative mp um but i would well if it's as big as you say, I'm trying to understand what's happened.

Yes, no, absolutely. But I do think, you know, and obviously I can't prove this, but I do wonder whatever party had been in power, that the reason that this has been missed is because the kind of political scene behind this, and this is why it's happened in many, many Western countries, it's absolutely not just in the UK, has led too few people to question what's going on here, because people are understandably worried

about being called transphobic, or unkind, or lacking in compassion. People have almost closed their eyes to what's been going on. And charities like Mermaids and other groups have been exceptionalised from normal safeguarding procedures. So safeguarding only works when it applies. We don't know. We don't know that because I suppose what you it's responsible to ask. It's responsible to ask if I can. It's responsible to ask you this as a sitting MP at this point. Should we not wait until the outcome of the Charity Commission's regulatory compliance case before making judgment? You seem to have already made your judgment. Well, of course we should await the outcome of that case

and I'm very much looking forward to seeing it. But, you know, the overwhelming evidence from parents across the country, and you don't have to go far on social media, in the media, to find all sorts of reports of parents who've been forbidden access to what their children have been taught at schools, where these groups have come in without parents' knowledge. Now, that is a massive safeguarding red flag. You know, the first rule of safeguarding is that anyone who seeks to separate children from their parents, whether that's emotionally or

physically, we need to ask questions because parents are the ones who are the most biologically, emotionally invested in children and are there to keep them safe. So there's clearly issues around separating children from parents, isolating children from parents. That in itself is a safeguarding red flag. There's a statement here from Mermaids, which I just wanted to share with you, which is a bit about you at the beginning and then moves to the broader issue. It says, Mrs. Kate's attitude, talking about you, towards LGBT organisations are well documented. This is not the first time she has criticised mermaids. We will continue to provide crucial support

for trans and gender diverse young people and their families and remain accountable to our service users and the public at large through the Charity Commission and other regulators. What would you say to that? Gay, same-sex attracted children are some of the most at risk from this ideology. So a lot of children who experience gender distress, who assume a trans identity, are same-sex attracted.

And the evidence suggests that most children, without being pushed down a path of transition, would turn into well-adjusted, happy gay adults. And I speak to lesbians all the time who are terrified by what's going on, because they say to me, you know, if I'd had this option as a teenager that I could cut off my breasts and take hormones, I would have taken it. And actually, some of this ideology is very homophobic because it says to same-sex attractive children, you're gay but actually you should be a boy or actually you should be a girl and that's deeply worrying it's um you know it's very dangerous for children who are same-sex attracted to be taken down that route rather than supporting as they're supported as they're exploring their their sexuality uh you know and this is why the lgb

alliance of form because they are so so afraid of what this gender identity ideology means for gay teenagers. And just to be clear, your way into this, because there's a hint at the beginning of that statement, you tell me, around your attitudes towards LGBT organisations being well documented. Your way into this is what? As an MP hearing from constituents or do you have another connection to this? So when I before I became an MP, I was aware of, you know, families that I'm connected to of children who had been subject to some of these groups and who had, you know, difficulties as a result of it. I assumed that this was kind of, you know, very niche, not happening in many schools. And then when I became an MP and I started to get involved in some education and schools issue, because that, you know, that's my

passion, I suppose, people started writing to me about what was going on in their schools all over the country. And it was a year ago, actually, about a year ago, that I first decided to raise this as a safeguarding issue in the House of Commons. And I did get some, you know, flack both in the House of Commons and on social media. But I also was absolutely overwhelmed with the number of people who wrote to me and said, oh, my gosh, I can't believe someone's finally voiced what we've been going through. You know, all over the country, all different types of schools, all worried about their children. And ever since then, it's just kept coming and coming and coming. So I am approaching this from a safeguarding point of view.

I think there are children at risk. I think this is a safeguarding issue, not a culture war issue. And yes, you know, of course, there's going to be backlash to anyone who raises those issues. But, you know, children are at risk here, and I care passionately about their future, and that's why I'm raising it. It's good to hear the background of your connection

because if people don't know your work as a politician, they may also want to know your link to this. Naomi has raised an issue of safeguarding of a different matter. I just wanted to put this to you while I had you, an email that's come in. Please ask Emma to question the MP who's critical of mermaids about the abuse received by the charity that has forced it to close its helpline because it's no longer safe for the volunteers who answer the calls. I think that's important in the name of balance and impartiality.

What do you say to that, that there's no longer a helpline? Well, I don't condone abuse, of course, in any circumstances. And nobody should be ringing mermaids or anyone else to abuse staff that's completely inappropriate um but we cannot detract from what has been shown to be going on here and the investigations that be are taking place and let's remember what has been revealed over the past week mermaids sending breast flattening devices to children behind their parents backs now if you go on the Met Police website... That's what's being claimed, yes. It lists breast flattening as a form of child abuse.

These are really serious allegations. Of course no one should be abused for their age. You're oscillating between what's being said has been found and what's been alleged. I think it's important to distinguish that. That's what's being alleged at this point. That's what's being alleged. And that's what's being looked. It's up's been alleged at this point. That's what's been alleged. It's up for those who are investigating it.

But these are serious allegations. And of course, no one should be abusing mermaids or any other group. But we cannot be distracted from investigating what are very serious safeguarding allegations. It's the first stage of the investigation in terms of what's being looked at at the moment. I use that phrase. It's not a finding of wrongdoing it's a first step taken by the

regulator a regulatory compliance case uh they've opened it they're engaging with trustees the charity commission uh and they're looking at it at the moment we will see what happens with that i'm sure we will talk again and just about the helpline it closed for one day yesterday uh explaining that it had to give the the charity saying it had to give their staff respite from the high volume of distressing and in some cases, threatening calls and emails and web chat contacts as a result of some of the recent coverage. We will talk again, as I say, about this. Miriam Cates MP, thank you very much for your time this morning

and what you've been hearing from parents and from teachers. Now, what I've been hearing from you largely is about your diaries. Gillian says, My grandmother and I were like sisters. She died in 1983 when I was 34. She kept every day, a diary every day of her life and asked me to burn them in the letters when she died. Much as I would have loved to have known more about her

and carried out her wish, I did carry out her wish. Many years later. Something makes me wonder if she, an actress in her early life, was gay. And it makes me sad to think that due to the moors of the time, she felt unable to share this. But I don't regret honouring my promise. We are talking about diaries. That's a very powerful message and something also to think about.

We're talking about it because it's been 40 years since The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole, aged 13 and three quarters by Sue Townsend, was published. Today sees a new edition with an introduction by the writer Catlin Moran. Let me remind you, on New Year's Day 1981, Adrian's living in Leicester, his parents' relationship is rocky, money's tight, he's worried about his spots on his face, the length of his penis, and he yearns for Pandora, who's from the posh part of town.

Sue Townsend died in 2014, and though she was a prolific writer, The Secret Diary of Adrian Mull is her best-loved work. Joining me now, Dr Emma Parker, Associate Professor of English at Leicester University, working on 20th century women's writing, and the writer Cathy Rensenbrink, who's an avowed fan, I'm told, of Adrian Mole. Let me come to you first, Emma, if I may, but welcome to you both. Emma, what's your connection to Adrian? Well, I read The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole when it was first published. I'm probably about the same age as Adrian and I enjoyed it. I laughed a lot. It was very funny. But I returned to the novel as an academic in the context of teaching a module called The Thatcher Factor, the 1980s in literature. And when I reread it as an adult,

wow, suddenly I realised it was a completely different novel. And what I saw was not just a coming of age story set against the backdrop of the 1980s, but a really smart and acerbic satire on faturism. Cathy, did you see that? Well, not when I was 11, I read it for the first time and didn't quite get all the jokes. I was giggling with my friend over Adrian measuring his thing. Equally already, very worried about my own spots, extremely preoccupied. You know, I really did think the world was going to end if I had to go to school with a spot and would rather you know would rather probably rather anything happened than a sort of a fresh spot in the morning so but I've definitely had the same experience as Emma as that

I loved it then I revisit it every so often and whenever I revisit it I just see it from a whole other level and because I'm now older than Adrian's parents even and I think it's an incredibly acute and compassionate vision of a marriage struggling under the weight of unemployment and being attracted to other people it's a funny thing isn't it well I was also gonna say it's a funny thing when you get older than the characters I remember recently watching a rerun of Friends and being older now than Friends when I originally watched it. Yeah, when you age past and then you see it from a different perspective. Emma, do you think that's why? Because you can come to it and see so many different parts of it at different stages,

that it's continued. It's not just about its success at the time, that it's continued to have an appeal. Yeah, definitely. I mean, Sue Townsend said she wrote the novel for adults and particularly for women. And I now see it as a feminist novel, which I didn't see when I was a teenager. In what way? Well, it's a really sympathetic critique of masculinity. I mean, it exposes male feelings, right? It's significant that it's a secret diary. And the epigraph from Lawrence in the opening about the character Paul not being able to talk about his feelings,

tells us that boys struggle with that. But here is Sue Townsend blowing that open and showing us male vulnerability and male insecurities in order to challenge the the myth of male superiority which Adrian himself believes in right Adrian has some very conservative views of gender which are amusingly satirized so it's a satire on masculinity and male dominance but the novel also has some amazingly strong female characters Pauline Pand, Pandora and Grandma. I mean, I love the scene where Grandma beats up Barry Kent, the school bully, and gets back Adrian's, the money that he's extracted from Adrian with menaces. And one of my favourite lines is Pauline, his mum, does a self-defence class. And Adrian writes,

my father says that women ought to be at home cooking. He said it in a whisper so that he wouldn't be karate-chopped to death. Cathy, do you connect to it in this way, that feminist way in now? Very much so. And I think, you know, so I've reread it several times. I reread it this morning just before coming on air,

just was flicking through. I found yet another bit that made me think of things in a different way, which was that, because my son's now 13. And the other day, after I was having a disaster, you know, full of cold, I had an exploding hot water bottle at her burnt face. He made me a cup of tea without asking

and it made me cry. And what do I find in Adrian Moore this morning after talking about his mother? He says, today I made her a cup of tea without asking and it made me cry. And what do I find in Adrian Moore this morning after talking about his mother? He says, today I made her a cup of tea without asking. And it made her cry. You can't please some people. And I thought, that's the power of it. She's so incredibly acute across all the people. But I think it's really compassionate. And I think sometimes for me, the limitations of satire as a reader is I think satire, it can be a bit one note. Once you've got the point, you've got the joke. And also, I think satire it can be a bit one note once you've got the point you've got the joke

and also I think satire can be quite cruel and I'm just not I just like I just can't be bothered I just feel I'm too old for cruelty in literature I see enough of it in the world but I every time I reread Adrian Mole I think it's so compassionate it's really kind of like holding the space for Adrian to be worried about his spots for it it to be OK. He just wants his mum to wear the lurex apron he bought her and stay at home and make him vitamin C drinks. She wants to go off to Greenham Common and maybe have a lover. And in the book, somehow, it just holds the space for everyone to want what they want.

And I think that's probably why it's so strong. And writing it, Emma, from a boy's, as you said, boy's point of view. Yeah, from a boy's point of view. And, you know, even today, you know, there's these debates about mental health and encouraging boys to talk about their feelings. And, you know, she was way ahead of the game, both in terms of her satire on satirism and her critique of masculinity. I mean, I really think that the novel hasn't had its due critically. Sue Townsend is hugely loved, the novel was really popular but it's fascinating that there's no biography of Sue Townsend and there's no critical book about her work and I think that one of the reasons for that is because she writes comic fiction

and comic fiction isn't really taken very seriously, particularly when women write it. So Sue herself told a story about going into hospital in the early 1980s. And the nurse who fitted her with an identity bracelet said to her, oh, how embarrassing to have the same name as that woman who writes those silly books. And she had anxieties about being seen as a proper writer um and she feared receiving letters from readers telling her that she should give up writing and go back to the biscuit factory and she said you know i well i can't do that because i just look terrible in a hairnet i mean that's something but that i mean it's interesting obviously that was presumably before amazon but i you know writers just should not read their Amazon reviews and should not read

letters from people telling them that they're rubbish because everybody does that to everybody all the time yes but I mean do you agree though that perhaps Sue hasn't had the critical attention she deserves I think that there's there's I don't really fully understand why it is I think people, comic writing tends to not get taken very seriously whereas for me I think comic writing is kind of the best writing because I think with Samuel Beckett that nothing is funnier than unhappiness

but I think it's a slight Anglo-Saxon thing as well I think it's quite an English thing, probably quite a middle class thing, something a bit vulgar about making people laugh, something a bit unacceptable about finding things funny I want as many people making people laugh as we can on women's hour so thank you for helping us do that this morning i missed everything else that we have to of course talk about uh kathy remsenbrink thank you very much to you the the author and writer and dr emma parker their associate professor of english at leicester university and many of you

getting in touch. I mean, this one you think you've sent. This other message has just come in as we're talking about 40 years on since the secret diary of Adrian Mole, aged 13 and three quarters by Sue Townsend. You think you've sent your diaries to the charity shop. I mean, I can't I can't even I can't even feel for you right now. Who's going to be reading them? What's going to be going on? I don't know what you put in them.

But to that person who's written in, I you're okay this morning thank you for the message a message here just talking back to uh the probe going on by the charity commission into the transgender youth charity mermaids uh listening to this woman the mp the conservative mp miriam cates is heartbreaking attitudes like hers are why trans kids like me often feel they have to cut contact with their parents. And another one here saying, no, thank you, Miriam Cates. I really appreciated your question to the prime minister in the House of Commons yesterday and for taking up this issue. Well, thank you to you for your company this morning.

I'm actually off for a little bit of a holiday, having just been ill. So that's good timing, isn't it? But you'll be in very safe hands and we'll be back with you tomorrow at 10 o'clock. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. and I loved it. The skewer. The skewer. The skewer. The news chart and channel. Don't make her angry. I will crush the British people. You wouldn't like her when she's angry. There's nothing new about a Labour leader.

Who the hell are you? Liz Truss. She-Hulk. Who is calling for more tax rises. It's everything you need to know. Like you've never heard it before. Thousands of lesbians are striking today in a dispute over pay. The three-day walkout could delay the processing of up to 60,000 gay women.

The biggest story. Next. With a twist. Surge in food prices. Coming up. Washing up liquid. Three to five thousand pounds. Food.

A packet of custard creams. But where did you get them? They were in a box in my mother-in-law's cupboard. Sort of three to four hundred pounds, something like that. Bite your nose. Crack team. Sound wizards. You're a wizard.

Listen now, BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.