Woman's Hour - Actor Lupita Nyong'o

Episode Date: March 18, 2019

In less than 10 years Lupita Nyong’o has starred in a number of high profile and award-winning roles. Her latest project ‘Us’ is a thriller-horror, directed by the Oscar-winning Jordan Peele. Lupita joins Jane to discuss skyrocketing into fame and the impact of being an African woman in Hollywood.Bryony Frost is the first women to win a grade one race at the Cheltenham Festival. She’s 23, from Devon and the daughter of a Grand National winning jockey. She has won over 100 races and made over a million pounds. Her win is thought to be a significant day for sporting equality but she’s quoted as saying, “It doesn’t matter whether you are a boy or a girl. I live by the metaphor about looking up the mountain.” After official figures revealed the number of women going for smear tests had reached an all-time low, there was a campaign aimed at encouraging women to go for the tests which look for the early signs of cervical cancer. Not surprisingly, more women went for testing…but the Guardian reports this morning that the service is in meltdown as scientists have been leaving. Kate Sanger, from the charity Jo’s Cervical Cancer Trust, explains why.As a Maasai child in Kenya, Nice Nailantei Leng’ete accomplished something remarkable: she refused to undergo her culture’s ritualized female genital mutilation. As an adult, she has gone on to negotiate with village elders, who traditionally have not worked with women, and convince them that alternative coming-of-age ceremonies will be healthier for girls and better for communities. Nice joins Jane to talk about her escape, and how her work has saved an estimated 15,000 girls around Kenya from the cut, as well as from child marriage. Author, Eleanor Anstruther’s father, Ian, was sold to his aunt for £500 because his mother was in terrible debt. After hearing his story, Eleanor wanted to know more about how and why this had happened all those years ago, so she began some research and then wrote about it. Her debut novel is ‘A Perfect Explanation’ .Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Lupita Nyong'o Interviewed Guest: Bryony Frost Interviewed Guest: Kate Sanger Interviewed Guest: Nice Nailantei Leng'ete Interviewed Guest: Eleanor Anstruther

Hi, this is Jane Garvey. Thanks for downloading the Woman's Hour podcast from Monday 18th March 2019. Today, the jockey Bryony Frost, the first woman to win a so-called Grade 1 race at the Cheltenham Festival. And she's got the Grand National to look forward to in a couple of weeks as well.

The author, Eleanor Anstruther, talks about her novel, A Perfect Explanation, which is about her own family's dark secret, well, about her dad's secret, really. That's a really intriguing book. And it's a pretty good story. You'll enjoy hearing about that. And we also explore why women are waiting longer for cervical cancer screening results. There was a story about that on the front page of The Guardian today. And it's caused, well, a lot of people questioning quite what is going on in the screening programme, bearing in mind that women have only very recently been encouraged to come forward for smear tests because the uptake had got so low. So that's all on the podcast today.

But we start with the actress Lupita Nyong'o. She has starred in a number of high profile films, bearing in mind she's only been acting really for a decade or so. She's already won an Oscar, Best Supporting Actress Oscar, for her role as Patsy in the incredible film 12 Years a Slave. Her latest project is called Us. It's part thriller, part horror, and it's directed by the formidably talented Jordan Peel. So I met Lupita last Friday, and she told me a bit about her character in Us. Adelaide Wilson is going with her family to their family home, their summer home, and she's riddled with a trauma from her childhood that she cannot shake and she cannot explain. And she has this

foreboding sense that something bad is about to happen. And she's proven right when these four shadowy figures show up at the top of their driveway and their worst nightmare ensues. And, you know, they quickly realize that the shadowy characters are versions of themselves. Yeah, and all sorts of things unravel from there. Lupita, how important is it to you that you are the star of what is a mainstream thriller, scary film? I guess, you know, it's very important. The hope when you make a film is that as many eyes as possible will see it. You know, we make it to be experienced.

And Jordan Peele, I I think that's the director yes he makes films really for their kind of social and cultural engagement and impact so this film was an important one for me especially also because I wanted to try something new and try my hand at the horror genre something something I hadn't done before. Yeah, that was the thing that was new for you. What's also significant is that your character isn't the nervy partner of a heroic male figure who's going to deal with the threat.

Right. You're the one in charge, aren't you? Well, yeah. I mean, this story is about Adelaide Wilson. Jordan chose to centre his story on a female character, and not just one, but two, because I play both. You better just explain the set-up of this film. Yes, it's about doppelgangers,

so I play the character and her shadow character as well, Red. If you'd seen that script, and it was in the more traditional vein of the guy was in charge and was facing everything, and the little lady was clinging to him and saying, oh, hope you hope you good luck. Hope you're all right. Would you have turned it down? Well, it might feel a little, you know, already done. And I don't think it would have the freshness that this story had. Because I think this story in many ways is kind of like turning the genre and our paradigms on their head. You know, the fact that the male character doesn't fit into our very rigid notions of what masculinity is.

And then with my character as well, she appears to be one thing. And then you discover that she's made of other stuff. She is really the hero of this particular film. And it made it feel timely and fresh and progressive and new. You're not from what you might call a showbiz family, though, are you? No. and it made it feel timely and fresh and progressive and new. You're not from what you might call a showbiz family, though, are you? No. So when you expressed this desire to get into acting, how did the family react?

Well, I was not from a showbiz family, but I do have storytellers in my family. And one of my aunts was actually the reason why I even discovered my love for performance. She was an actor as well as a graphic designer, but she would encourage us to perform for my family. She would organize these little skits for us to do. So she was really part and parcel of the inspiration behind me becoming an actor. My father also, he was a thespian, and in his day he was acting when he was in university. And my great-grandmother, she was a storyteller. So I grew up around people who

were telling stories in different ways, and definitely people with artistic streaks. And my parents were always very supportive. They didn't dictate to us what we did. They just wanted us to do everything to excellence, you know, and they supported all their children's interests and educated themselves about how to better foster those things in us. And how to look after yourself as well, I imagine. And looking after yourself in Hollywood as a young woman is not always easy, is it? No, I can't imagine it is. But I feel fortunate because by the time I was being exposed to Hollywood, I was already pretty sure of who I was, or at least I had gotten over the highly impressionable years.

Yeah, you have written quite explicitly about what happened between you and Harvey Weinstein and the way that you felt threatened by him. We should say at this point that he does deny any charges of non-consensual sexual behavior, but he made you feel exceptionally awkward in some encounters with him, didn't he? Well, I felt compelled to write the piece that I did in the New York Times. And what I'm really encouraged by is what has come out of all this. And I feel like there has definitely been a shift in the culture and how we perceive you survivors and victims of sexual abuse

and all sorts of other abuse. I feel like we have more of a public listening ear in a way that I don't think was the norm, you know. And it's, and it's, we're really being forced to examine our cultures around the world and how we, how we, you know, interact with each other, you know, hard questions are being asked. And, and I feel that there is a community of support. And, you know, what, what were the Time's Up movement and everything, just fighting for equality and equity in different fields. And that's, that's, that's the hope that there is action beyond allegations, beyond accusations, and all that, you know, that there

is action, that there's tangible change that is you know, that there is action, that there's tangible change that is made so that it doesn't continue. You're a big fan of the writer Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, who I should say has been on Woman's Hour and is a fantastic writer and loads of our listeners absolutely love what she does. You're a big fan of Americana, which is the book about a young woman growing up in America. And would you, I mean, do you see that as something that should be filmed, could be filmed? Yes, I have the rights to it. That's why I'm asking.

We're adapting it to, it's going to be a TV show. And yeah, I'm really excited about it. We've been working on it for a long time. And I'm happy to say we're very, very close to rolling the camera. Yeah, and you're in it? Yes, I play Femalou. Okay, and do you feel a particular responsibility to deliver here? Because I know the material is quite close to you. It's quite dear to you, isn't it?

Yeah, it is. And I think, you know, with every role I take on, I feel a level of responsibility. And that's, I love that, you know, it's a challenge. It's, it's nothing is, nothing is for certain, you know, it's a risk one takes. And Chimamanda's work, I adore her writing, and the voice that she has given to the African perspective in the global sense is poignant. And so I obviously want to do it justice. That's the actress Lupita Nyong'o and that film we mentioned Us is out on Friday. Now let's celebrate more female talent in the form of Bryony Frost,

who last week became the first woman to win a Grade 1 race at the Cheltenham Festival. She rode Froden to victory in the Ryanair chase, and she joins us now from the glamorous location of a lay-by. Which particular lay-by is it, Bryony? I know you're on your way to today's meeting at Southall, that's right, isn't it?

Yeah, that's right. We're on the A37 right now, just before Bristol Bristol so we've been and we've mucked out, we've schooled a couple in ditches there at Nicholls and yeah we're heading on to Southall now. Right which just illustrates that your average working day is quite a long one, so what time were you up

this morning? 10 past 6 this morning my day starts we get on into the yard and we muck out the horses that are on our yeah and we we get on into the yard and we muck out uh the horses that are on our list and then we get on and ride one and try and fit in um as many as we can in the routine and then and then uh before we have to leave for racing that day yeah now um i know you're at southall today obviously you've got just one ride or a couple more two two today right yeah and this is very different presumably this is your bread and butter kind of day, I guess,

compared to all the glamour and excitement of last week. Oh, well, look, I mean, as a jockey, your career is to do your best by your horse and make his career the best you can for him. So it doesn't matter whether he's, you know, a 0-100 horse, what would be a, oh, I don't know, maybe like a 1.6 sort of car. Or when you get your big grade one horses like Frodo, what are your V8 engines?

You know, you just try and do your best by them all the time. So it doesn't matter whether it's a Monday or a day at the festival, you're still trying to start hard for him, you know. Just as special, it takes just as much effort from them to deliver. Now, I know you have a very particular and special relationship with Froden, who was your horse last week that you rode to victory in the Ryanair chase. Just explain more about this horse and just how magnificent he is. Oh, he's the cocky-locky lad of the yard. You know, he's quite boisterous of himself and uh and he's um he's just the most incredible battler he tries so hard his determination is is faultless and he

you know i we hold him all so close to our hearts but i think he really showcased what he was really made of and so many people now hold him hold him close to their hearts as well they find common ground in his determination and his willingness to be the best you know most horses when they they are overtaken and headed in their race they they half give up they become a bit you know a bit uh disheartened but Frolon is is beyond that you know he's he's all heart for you and you know it's something about about him when you're out there with your horses it's it split-second decisions with each other. You have to be so there. You know, you have to think the same.

You have to feel them. You know, we can't talk to each other, but the communication is louder than being out there with someone. Yeah, that's really interesting. You can't talk, but you certainly communicate. I just want to know a bit more about women and jockeying and actually female jockeys having a moment because you weren't the only big winner at Cheltenham last week

Rachel Blackmore did really well as well she's an Irish jockey I think the times are starting to change and I believe in a lot of as a jockey it's a bit like a football team or a rugby team or even tennis players, every sort of sport

or anything you do in your career, you can't be anyone unless you have the support behind you. And I believe if you work hard and you keep yourself improving and you have people that are right behind you helping you and giving you the opportunities then to showcase your abilities, then I believe it doesn't matter who you are, boy or girl, I believe that you will go somewhere. And, you know, that is what's happening.

You know, we're getting opportunities and we're making the most of our opportunities and we're making sure that when we do, we are good enough, we're strong enough. And, you know, our race and heads and our clock and everything is spot on and ready to go. But just tell us, for those of us outside the sport, you are in charge of, let's be honest, an enormous creature

and you're going full pelt. I mean, at your maximum, what speed are you doing on Froden? Oh, I reckon he gets to about 30, probably 35 miles per hour, yeah. Yeah, OK. 35 miles per hour, heading for fences which are how high? Oh, I'm not actually overly sure. I reckon they're about six foot, maybe. Yeah. OK, I mean, you say that like it's nothing.

It's a phenomenal thing to feel able to do and to be in control in those moments. It must be incredible. I'm bound to ask you about the Grand National. I know you rode in it last year. And actually, you did well. You were fifth, weren't you? Yeah, yeah.

Best Brit home, yeah. Yeah, well, that's right because the first four jockeys, I think, were all Irish, is that right? Irish, that was it, yeah, the Irish, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, when we say we're in control of them, we're not. We're their partners or that's how I see it. I'm their partner and you can only ever ask them, you know, and they can either decide to agree with you and come along or, you know, or they don't.

You have to ask them in a different way. It's all about being their partner and working out what works best for them. And you write them all differently. They're the most complicated puzzle in the animal kingdom in my eyes. And they're just, you know, they're more complicated than people. Yeah, I seem to get on a lot better with horses than I would be able to communicate with a human being. OK. Yeah, no.

But what about Aintree then? Do you know who you're riding? No, at the minute, no, at the minute I don't have a ride. So we will see what comes along. But last year I had a horse called Malansbar, who's nicknamed Mars Bar, who is huge. He's about 17 hands. He is your 4x4 of the equine world.

He'd be like when you go home and sit in front of the TV, your comfiest chair. To sit upon him is like being on top of the world. So to tackle those big fences around there with him and his intelligence and agility, he made your confidence grow every fence you jumped on him. big fences around there with him and his intelligence and agility was uh you know he made it he made your confidence grow every fence he jumped on him and and the the uh it was just it was incredible there was a circuit to go once you jump the water and you've got a whole new circuit to go i remember leaning down on him and saying mate take a breather come on we gotta we gotta go whole another circuit to go come on we can do this you know and he he was right there

with me and he just when we pulled up and i got off him they gave him a patent and it was just you know everybody was in tears with him because it was just such an amazing um you know to be able to achieve for him well i mean i i hate to put pressure on any young woman but uh you know as well as i do briony that the first woman to be the winning jockey in the Grand National will have a place in sporting history. And it must be on your mind. No, actually. I didn't even realise quite what we did when we went on the road at Cheltenham on Thursday. It was only until we came back in and people started to say, you know, you're making history here. And I went, you know, I looked a little bit square at them

and they said it was a great one. You're the first one to do it. And I was like, oh, that's so cool. But to me, I just, I make sure I'm always improving. I just do me. I don't know, I love to ride my horses and what will be, will be in my lifetime. I will just, I'll just make sure that I keep climbing

to the top of the hill and see how far we get. Well, good luck this afternoon at Southall and keep safe. Thank you very much for talking to us. Thank you. That is Bryony Frost, first woman to win a Grade 1 race at the Cheltenham Festival. And somehow or other, I think she probably will get a ride

in the Grand National. I should have said her dad, actually, Jimmy Frost, was the winning jockey in the Grand National. So it's all in the family and in the blood. But we wish her the very best of luck. Quite a moment, actually, in terms of sport this morning, because Anna Kessel, who many of you will know the name because she's a regular guest on Women's Hour talking about women's sport,

she's been appointed the Daily Telegraph's first ever women's sport editor. So it does seem that there is a bit of a moment here that women's sport is in the mainstream and being taken increasingly seriously. And now tomorrow on the programme, if you've got any teenagers in the family, you might well be interested in finding out more about the drug ketamine. And that is something we'll be talking about on Women's Hour tomorrow. If you've got any questions, you can contact the programme via the website bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour or you can tweet us, of course, as well, at BBC Woman's Hour. We're also on Instagram, at BBC Woman's Hour.

Loads of stuff for you there. Mary Berry is also on the show tomorrow. She's going to be making a trifle. Yes, it's quite a... It's what you call a contrast on the show tomorrow. And on Thursday, this is important, how and when do you tell a child that they have a disability? Caroline Casey is a disability activist

and she is legally blind due to ocular albinism, but she didn't find out that until she was 17. Her parents didn't tell her because they didn't believe in labels. So are you a parent with a disabled child? How and when did you start a conversation about it? Email your experiences or tweet us at BBC Women's Hour. Now, the story I mentioned on the front page of The Guardian today, the official figures revealed recently that the number of women

going for smear tests had reached an all-time low. And so, understandably, there was a campaign aimed at encouraging women to go for the tests, which look, of course, for the early signs of cell changes which might lead to cervical cancer. Not surprisingly, more women went for testing. But that report in The Guardian today says the service is in meltdown

as scientists have been leaving it. And women have to wait a long time for the results of their screening. So let's try to find out exactly what is happening here. Kate Sanger is from the charity Joe's Cervical Cancer Trust. Good morning to you, Kate. Good morning. We need to, first of all, nail down the fact that the test itself has changed, hasn't it? And that is at the root of this issue.

Absolutely. So the way that samples are tested when they go to the laboratory is changing. In Wales, it's already changed. And in England, it's currently being changed. In Scotland, Northern Ireland, it will change in the next year or two. And it's basically changing to a much more effective way of identifying pre-cancerous changes, whereby samples will first be looked at to see if HPV is present. That's human papillomavirus. In the current method, the test sample will go to laboratory and someone will look at it through a microscope to see if there are abnormal cells there.

The new way of testing is a much more machine-based technology. So there is obviously going to be some cuts and people will be losing their jobs because of these new changes. It's a much, much better test, much, much more effective. So it's a really positive thing. I was going to say, we need to be clear the test the new test the new method is a good thing absolutely it's a much more effective way of identifying those women who might be more at risk of cervical cancer but it's a big upheaval for the screening program and so obviously there

are some issues which have been um reported down the guardian yes okay so the issues are what exactly so the structure of the laboratories in England, so this is an England problem, which I should definitely mention. The laboratory structure is changing from about 50 laboratories and they're going to be cut down to sort of about 13 because this new testing method should be much more faster and machine-based. So obviously there are going to be job changes and people are anticipating some of these changes.

So as mentioned in the piece, are leaving uh leaving the profession early because they can see that there there won't be such a need for for them later down the line um and then at a time when screen attendance is at an all-time low campaigns to increase attendance are extremely important and they need to be happening such as the public health angler campaign that's running at the moment um but the it's really important the service itself is resourced and can cope with the existing demand and also increased demand as campaigns such as this happen. Right. So this is a perfect storm, isn't it, really? And it hasn't been properly thought through. There was an awareness programme because of the relatively low take up of the testing.

At the same time, the testing methods were changed. So people were leaving the profession because there might not be any need for them further down the line. And the upshot is that women are indeed going for testing because they've been encouraged to do it. And they're having to wait longer for the results. Absolutely. But I think the most important thing is that this is a test that can prevent cancer. And with less women attending than ever, a few women attending than ever, we need to keep on increasing attendance. And that means awareness campaigns. That means we're working with community groups to raise awareness of this test

and encourage women to get tested. But as said, it's really important that the NHS can provide the service that women need. That means GP appointments and enabling women to actually get that test and also then enabling them to get their results back in time. Because obviously for women, it's an anxious time going for a smear test yeah do you know how long women are waiting at the moment for the results it varies across the country um in some places women are getting their results in two weeks and others there is a delay um in getting their results um it will get better as the program starts to move to this new way of testing and the laboratory structure is sorted across the country.

But there is a period of upheaval. And obviously for women who are affected, it can be extremely anxious time. But it's important to remember that cancer takes a long, long time to develop. And this is not a test for cancer. It's a test for pre-cancer. So the risk to women, the main risk is not going for a test. Yeah. And even if your test might appear to show something, it does not mean you will get cancer. Absolutely.

Cervical cancer is really rare. So there are about 3,000 diagnoses every year in the UK, where about 5 million women are invited for cervical screening. 2,200 of those will be told that they've got, sorry, 220,000 will be told that they've got an abnormal result, which might need treatment. And this is why screening is so, so important, because it can pick up those women who might need treatment, and often at a very, very early stage before it even has the chance to develop into cancer. If you were going to apportion blame in these circumstances, and I have to say, we asked NHS England for a statement, they haven't been able to provide one,

who would you go for? Because the headline, I have to say, on the front page of The Guardian is alarming. I mean, headlines, I know, are meant to encourage you to read the story, but carry on. Absolutely. I think there are obviously problems at the moment across England within the cervical screening programme, but this campaign has been known for a long time.

It's been in the planning for a long, long time. NHS England has known about it. Public Health England have been working on it for a long time. So it's not come as a surprise. So the campaign should have been adequately run at a time, or the campaign should have run, and it's great that it is running. But NHS England should be providing the service, which means that GPs, laboratories, and ensuring that they're both adequately resourced for women. Because at the end of the day, it's women who are losing out and that's just not fair. But I think sometimes in the NHS you do feel that individual parts of it are not communicating effectively with other

parts of it. We do have a very complicated structure. You're being very diplomatic. The NHS structure is very complicated and again it's not fair though that it is women who do end up having to be to face the brunt of this and to have to face delays as a result of maybe poor communication or management. Thank you very much, Kate. That's Kate Sanger from the charity Joe's Cervical Cancer Trust. Thank you very much for coming in today. Thank you. Now, as a Maasai child in Kenya, Nais Nelente Lengete refused to have her culture's ritualised female genital mutilation. You'll find out exactly how she avoided that in a moment or two. She is now working with the organisation Amref Health

Africa, which is a non-governmental organisation based in Nairobi. For the last decade, it's been trying to change attitudes in the Maasai community, both in Kenya and in Tanzania, and it claims to have stopped an estimated 17,000 girls from going through FGM. Well, Nais talked to me from Edinburgh, where she'd in fact just been presented with an award in recognition of her work at the same event as George and Amal Clooney, no less. Here is Nais telling me how she got away

from the family members who wanted her to undergo female genital mutilation. When I was eight years old, my circumcision was organised for me and my sister, who was two years older than me. She was ten and I was eight. But because I've been seeing other girls undergoing female circumcision in my village, that's why I really say this is not something I wanted to do

because I wanted to continue with my education. But it was not easy because you know it was a must for every girl to undergo female circumcision as this is a rite of passage from girlhood to womanhood. So when I was eight, our circumcision ceremony was planned

by my uncle together with her three daughters. And we woke up at 4 a.m. because that's when you're supposed to wake up and shower with cold water. The cold water now is supposed to work as anesthesia because remember, they're not giving you any injection. And that means you're not allowed to cry

or even move your body. If you do that, you're called a coward or there's no man from that community who is going to marry you. So we had already planned together with my sister on how we are going to run away. So after showering with the cold water, we went outside our uncle's homestead and we climbed a tree. You know, I climbed first and then with the support of my sister, she climbed. And then it was again very early in the morning. There was dark. We couldn't go down. So we had to wait until there was light.

And when there was light, we came down. We went to our mother's sister's place. And later on, when they found that we were there, we were beaten and threatened. So we had to promise that next time we'll not run away, but we'll proceed with the cart. We went back to school, closed our schools and our circumcision ceremony was planned again and we woke up the same time and this time round I told my sister we need to run away because that's the only way we can get our education but she said nice we can't be running away every time. The other time we were beaten maybe this time they'll do something worse to us. And because I'm two years older than you, let me stay and I will not tell anyone. So you can just go to the same tree. So my sister was not lucky. She got circumcised at the age of 10 and later married. And why I'm doing the work I'm doing right now is because she sacrificed herself so that I be left out,

so that I don't undergo the cut. And from that, I didn't go to my mother's sister's place. I went to school. I stayed there. And later on, I went to my grandfather. And I talked to him, and I told him I'm still young so that I can have time to continue with my education. But later on, I came and I talked to him, and he agreed to support me, and he called my uncles,

and he said that I'd be left alone. How unusual were you? Were there other young girls like you? It must have been so difficult. Yeah, it was difficult because, remember, I was the only girl who did not undergo circumcision at that time. It's not like now that we have many who have not undergone. There was pressure from the girls and, again, I was seen as a bad example in this community,

as a girl who disrespected our community. So it was not easy for me growing up. But I think, again, that toughened me up. And that's why I'm doing the work that I'm doing right now. But you continue to live in the community. Yes. I continue to stay in that community because, one, that's still my home. You see, you can never run away from your home. But I realized that if I'm the only girl who has not undergone circumcision I will have problems they will still laugh at me or give me all the names that they give uncircumcised women but what if we have a hundred girls or a thousand girls or you know a hundred thousand girls like me who have not undergone circumcision I think that is the only way I will be comfortable staying in that family or staying in that community.

And that's why I decided later on to come and talk to my community and find a solution. Because remember, running away is not a solution. We have girls with disabilities who are blind who cannot even see where do they run to. And again, there's no kid who would want to stay away from her home or there's no kid who would really want to be seen like she's disrespecting her family. So to me, what is important is just to talk to our parents because they are not doing it because they hate us. That is our culture that is saying you can't be considered a woman

if you have not undergone the card. And that is why later I decided to come and start having conversations together with men, together with women, but more to these girls. Because remember, changing culture, again, is not easy. You need patience to give people time to change, but you also need to be talking less and giving people to talk more. Can you just explain how you've been able to do this work? When I was 17 years old that's when I met Ambre Feld Africa. They came to my community and they said they need a girl and a boy who can read and write. At that time we had so many boys who have been to school but I was

the only girl who had education. That's how I got selected to undergo a peer education training. Right. And just to make this clear, Nais, you were only able to continue your education because you hadn't undergone FGM. Is that right? Yeah, right. And I went on one week training on peer education, whereby I was trained on different things, on topics on sexual and reproductive health and rights, including issues of teenage pregnancy, effects of female genital mutilation, child marriage. And from that training, I was now equipped with skills and

knowledge. So I could now go back to the community and talk because I had more information. Because remember, before I was also a shy girl, you know. I didn't believe, like, probably someday I could talk in front of elders, you know, I could talk in my community. The alternative ceremony, NICE, what does it consist of? What happens? What we do is that we try to raise awareness and raise sensitisation among the community members.

Because remember, this is a process that takes so much time, you know, like four or three years. We have different forums whereby we have the mother to girl forum, whereby mothers and daughters sit down together and talk about these issues. Father to son forum, you know, the elders forum, then the morons forum, the young warriors. And why we are also teaching boys the importance or the effects of female genital mutilation in men. Remember, we cannot assume the position of male leadership in these communities. They are very powerful.

They make all the decisions. And this is a community whereby we are not only talking about issues of female genital mutilation or child marriage. Even wife beating is a way of showing love, you know, to your wife and all that. How do we teach our boys from when they are young, when they are growing up, to respect women, to take care of their sisters? Because in future, these younger boys again are husbands, you know, they'll be fathers to their own daughters.

So we are simply saying, let us retain the beautiful part of our culture and replace the cut with education. Because investment in education is very important when you're trying to change any kind of gender based violence. But the beautiful dances, songs, they are all kept, you know, the way we dress. So after girls receiving a three days training, there is a one day ceremony whereby the whole community comes up together because they are now celebrating these girls who are becoming women without their cut. Among the Maasai community, you see female genital mutilation is at 73 percent.

Still? And still. And we are only working with the Maasai community in Kenya and Tanzania. So I will say the number has gone down, but there is still so much to be done. But remember, alternative rights of passage, that said, it's not a solution to every community because each community has their own reasons and myths behind female circumcision. For us, it's a right of passage from girlhood to womanhood.

Go to the Muslim, it's because of purity and hygiene. So now what we managed to do two years ago is AMREF launched a pan-African movement to bring female genital mutilation to an end by 2030, whereby we are scaling up to other sub-Saharan countries like Ethiopia, Senegal, and Uganda. Because now we have so much experience with the Maasai people, we have seen what works and what is not working. But now we want to go to those other countries whereby we can invest more in research, get to understand why they are doing it,

but more least to empower those communities members to be able to solve their own problems. And I think that should be the way to go. What an impressive young woman she was. That's Nais Nelante Lengete, who is now working for the organisation Amref Health Africa. Now, one of our most popular features recently has been a series about family secrets, because it turned out when we started looking at this that just about every family in the country has a family secret of one sort or another.

And if you missed any of those items, you can go to our website now, bbc.co.uk slash Women's Hour, look for the article and then embedded within the article are links to the features we played out on the programme. So if you missed any of that, you will find it really interesting because as I say, just about everybody has got something that is worth probing in their family's history. And our next guest is exactly that sort of person. Welcome to the programme, author Eleanor Anstruther. Welcome, Eleanor. Thank you. Now, your story is, well, you've written your first novel. It's called A Perfect Explanation, and it is all about your dad's own story. So it's a pretty startling one. Just briefly

outline, if you can, what he went through and indeed when he told you about it. Well, I always knew that he'd been sold by his mother to his aunt. I don't remember learning that fact. It was just something I knew. And I think I'd normalised it. And it wasn't until I sort of started thinking about becoming a mother myself, going through IVF, that it occurred to me that this wasn't normal at all. And I should probably find out a little bit more about it. Yes, you say that quite often. out a little bit more about it. Yes you said that quite. You have haven't you? So you it's interesting that you don't remember a moment when he revealed this although I'd struggle to think of a situation in which revealing that kind of thing would be appropriate. Exactly it was just something we knew we all knew. How did it happen and why? Well that is what the book's about obviously it happened um as a

result of a very long fight between his mother and his aunt um she was called enid and the aunt was called joan um over over the right to have him and sort of own him in a sense but also sort of win his love really and then take care of him in terms of jo's sort of feeling about it so it took over a long period of time and he was 17 eventually when money passed hands only three years away from being an adult so it was kind of arbitrary really but by then I think the sisters had lost focus on

what they were doing as people do in court cases over children. Yes but he was living his life whilst this slightly was going on. Yes. He was I mean he was sort of parceled about. He was at a Christian science boarding school at the age of 10. And then he went to Eton. So he was at school.

And then when he wasn't there, he was either with his mother by court order or with his aunt where he really wanted to be. And in the end, well, I won't say what the court found. No, because you want people to read the book. But this is also a story about inheritance and about, well, about gender, because his significance was that he was male. to a boy. Enid and Joan's brother Ivor was killed at Gallipoli. He should have been the heir. And at that point Enid had already married a man that she didn't really love. It was a secret engagement. By the time

it was revealed she wasn't in love with him anymore but her mother-in-law revealed it in the Times and to save face they had to marry. So she found herself in a very unhappy marriage. She wanted to be a nun. She didn't want to be married at all. And then when her brother was killed, she had to produce the heir.

And she did? She did. Well, she had her eldest son, Fagus, was born. She knew there was something wrong with him. But I mean, this is very much a sort of theme of the novel that nobody's listening. And then by accident, something terrible happens and he's put out of the running.

So she had to do it again. Right. And then, so the impact of all this on your father was what? Well, he didn't like surprises. He didn't like shocks. He had to know who was coming round. He was a very, very ordered man. He had to do the same thing at the same time every single day.

Well, I was reading about him. Just give people a glimpse into his daily routine and his habits. Well, he was always up at the same time. He'd have a cup of tea and read a poem from the Oxford Book of Poetry. He'd go up to work at 10 o'clock, lunch at 12.30, at different pubs every day, local pubs. Same thing at each pub. And he would end the day always with his bath and a drink.

He'd always dress for dinner, even though he lived alone during the week. Yeah, and he just, he liked order. You could set your watch by him. There was a particular outfit, I think, he wore, wasn't there, for dinner? Well, he always wore a very beautiful Campbell tartan smoking jacket and his aunt, Joan, had given him a pair of Turkish slippers, which had a little bell on the end. He was a very eccentric man, it has to be said. You're painting a picture of somebody who was a trifle eccentric.

But on the other hand, had also lived through this extraordinary painful period. Yes. Of his aunt and his mother, who did he favour? What did he say about her? Oh, he loved his aunt. And I didn't even know, it seems odd, but I didn't even know he had a mother, really, until it occurred to me that, of course, he must have done.

Because she was never mentioned and she just didn't figure in our childhoods at all. Whereas Aunt Joan, even though she died before I was born, she was very much a presence in our lives. And we heard him talk about her all the time. And so it was only when I just sort of suddenly thought I wonder what my grandmother was called so I asked him what was your mother called and when I heard her name she kind of came to life and there she was but

I mean he was very he just he didn't spill his pain all over the place and I didn't even know there was any pain to be honest there until I asked him what would he say to his mother if she was here now and his response it just opened up a part of him that I'd never witnessed before. So he did know you were writing a novel about this? He did, yes, he did. I went to talk to him about it just to find out, really, and also, I think, to get closer to him, because he wasn't, children weren't, he didn't really relate that well.

He related to people. Children were messy and loud, and that wasn't really his thing. So as an adult, you know, I wanted to get to know him. Yeah. And so I spent time with him and talking about it and he knew I wanted to write the book and he just opened up all the archives to me. And I spent a year reading every letter, every medical paper, going to every place. It was amazing. And lunch with him every week, which is marvellous as well because he died soon after. Yes. So he obviously hasn't lived, unfortunately, long enough to

see the book. And I should say it's being acclaimed, and people are saying you should definitely read this. It's clearly, for you, been an absolute labour of love. It really has. Because of your family's history, the aristocratic links here, you've got those records. The truth is, as we were discussing when we did our series on

Family Secrets, most people can't get to that stuff and it's so frustrating. It must be. I mean, I was very lucky there. I wrote one whole version of the book just taking the relationship between Eden and Douglas before they married. There are nine volumes of bound letters in that one year they were forced to

be apart. And that was just one bit of what was available to me in the archive. And then all the letters that was just a one bit of the of what was available to me in the archive and then all the letters that were kept and also lots of the other letters were bound Ivor's letters to his mother before he was killed were all bound in a book so very lucky to have access to all of that what has it done to you because I know you've you've got you've got sons now you went as you mentioned earlier you went through IVF um bearing in mind your father's ambivalence and his uncertainty frankly about children how did you feel about all this? Well, I mean, I wasn't mad keen to have children.

I loved my boys very much, but it didn't obsess me or it wasn't a part of me that thought I would become a mother particularly. I think I'm much more, I just up for the challenge when I was told by a doctor that I couldn't have children, that made me think, well, I'll show you. So I did. And I think, I mean, I do my best to be a really good mother. And the love is, aside from that, I love them. And it's a sort of heartbreaking relationship, really, isn't it?

For anyone who is a mother, it's a, you know, you live with this incredible love. So I just try and sort of, there that is. And then I just try and do a really good job, best job I can do anyway I think actually it's still relatively rare for people to be honest about the ambivalence involved particularly in motherhood I mean it's brutal, anyone

bringing up small children it's really, it's tough and I don't know anyone who privately anyway doesn't say that doesn't admit to it and I think it's really healthy for us to say it. And certainly, I mean, I tend to try and put people off only if I can put them off. Maybe they just don't have the stuff to because it's a hard job. It's really hard work. Eleanor Anstruther and the book is called A Perfect Explanation.

Now to your emails and tweets about the programme today. Leo says you didn't mention Lizzie Kelly, who also won a race at Cheltenham. She won a Grade 3 race on a horse called Siru Dulac. And thank you for that, Leo. Well worth pointing out. Leo also says it's time we just had jockeys, not lady

and women jockeys, isn't it? I'm sure many would agree. Antonia doesn't like the whole tone of the item. No, Jane, you do not speak for all your listeners when you wish jockey Bryony Frost good luck in the Grand National. Please can you use your platform to speak against animal exploitation for human entertainment and profit? From Ian, I thought it was a rather cosy sycophantic chat on such a radical programme. Anybody concerned with the issue of animal welfare?

Jane described the Cheltenham Festival as glamorous. Three horses were killed there last week and seven at the festival in 2018. And then the excitement, so-called, of riding at the Grand National. Really? Why would anyone who professes to respect and love these amazing creatures want to partake in a sport, so-called, that causes their premature deaths? Let's have some balance, please, says Ian.

Well, I hope you feel that your email on the podcast has let in a bit of balance, Ian. Thank you for making contact. On the subject of smear tests, Gillian, having had the letter inviting me to have my latest routine screening, I contacted my GP surgery a fortnight ago to be told by the receptionist, well, she's fully booked and then she's going away. She eventually suggested I try calling back in April if I like. And they wonder why take up rates are falling. Thank you, Gillian. Sorry about that. That's not good, is it?

An anonymous email here. Just had my last ever test at the age of 62, done by efficient, thorough, but gentle practice nurse, and I got my results within a fortnight, happily clear. Just thought I'd send this to encourage women to have the test. I think, says this listener, that it used to be more uncomfortable. I'm really glad you did contact us to say that because, of course, all too often we don't give credit to those brilliant nurses who can carry out smear tests so well. And it means they are. I've certainly had

smear tests that have been utterly, utterly painless. And it's down to their skill, isn't it, really? We need to acknowledge that. And I'm glad that you got the all clear there and you are absolutely right people women should go for smears from poly i attended cervical screening in the first week of january still awaiting results the gp practice staff are excellent and it's clear the delay is at the laboratories i'm in ashfield in nottinghamshire and we did have i'm just looking at my screen, there was at least one other tweet saying that, from somebody in another part of England, to say they hadn't had their results either,

and they'd been waiting now for quite some weeks. So the issue of the delay is a real one. It's actually happening to women. Rebecca says, I really enjoyed hearing about NICE. I thought her account of her experiences was very informative yet it is terrifying to hear what happens to these poor girls. Well done Woman's Hour for bringing such an important

topic to many people's minds today. Imagine a day where FGM no longer happens. And Kathleen is a dissatisfied customer. Please, please, please ask Jane Garvey to stop saying um several times in each sentence. It is not very

professional. Kathleen, thank you for that. I mean, there is an obvious response to that, but it would be fatuous, so I'm not going to do it, but I'm very grateful to you. It wasn't that funny. It's not funny. My attitude isn't funny, and I take it all back, and I'm going to make a determined effort to stop.

Your criticisms are always, well, they're not always welcome, but they come in anyway, whether they're welcome or not. And keep them coming because as I often say, we do appreciate our contact with you. It's hugely helpful. I'm not here. I was going to say Jenny's here tomorrow. If only she was in a perfect world, she would be, but you're still with me. And our guest tomorrow is Mary Berry Berry we're also talking about ketamine in teenagers or teenage use of ketamine and I have to say if you've got teenagers you will know that this situation is something that you may well have to confront and it's better to be informed so that's tomorrow on the program any thoughts on that any experiences any questions email the program via the website bbc.co.uk slash woman's hour. Beyond Today is the daily podcast from Radio 4. It asks one big question about one big story in

the news and beyond. Just how big is Netflix? Why are young people getting lost in the system? I'm Tina Dehealy. I'm Matthew Price. And along with a team of curious producers, we are searching for answers that change the way we see the world. I was actually quite shocked by how many people this issue affects. So we're doing stories about technology, about identity. Are you trying to look black? No, I am not trying to look black. Power, where power lies, how it's changing.

And every weekday we speak to the smartest people in the BBC and beyond. It's basically what I've been wanting to do since I was little, to talk about business and economics. And the stories started forming in my head. That's what I've learned. It's okay to feel. Subscribe to us on BBC Sounds. And join in on the hashtag Beyond Today.