Woman's Hour - Actor Rose Ayling-Ellis in Strictly; Tracey Neville; Rape as a weapon of war; She-cession; Photographing Angela Merkel

Starting point is 00:00:00 This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 00:00:42 BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Shortly, we'll be looking at some new money being announced by the government today to tackle sexual violence against women and girls in conflict around the world and trying to figure out how that may work. We're also going to examine the idea that women who continue to work at home will be left behind as offices reopen. Plus, what impact Rose Ailing Ellis's performance on Strictly Come Dancing is having on the wider

Starting point is 00:01:17 deaf community? We're going to be hearing from some of those who feel she's making a profound difference. But I'm also going to be speaking today to a photographer who's taken photos of the outgoing German Chancellor Angela Merkel most years, once a year from 1991 to the present day, as part of a project to see how power and a job changes a person. And it's resulted in a fascinating photo book which charts the accumulation of one person's power and experience. And there's a particular quote I wanted to share with you from this book because, of course, while she takes the photos, they have a conversation. And Angela Merkel, speaking in 1997,

Starting point is 00:01:56 said, while more and more taking on a political role, I am also at the same time changing as a private person. I am no longer like I once was. How has your job changed you? For good? For bad? Perhaps in spite of yourself. Maybe you didn't want it to. Maybe it's changed you for the better. It's changed your outlook.

Starting point is 00:02:16 Perhaps for the worse. Disposition. Posture. Way of talking to people. I mean, my goodness, my role has meant I think I'm just even worse than I ever was. With small talk, I always want to get to the most interesting things and have to stop myself from kind of going into host mode. Plus, I am terrible at text messages, always want a phone call, can't bear messaging. Worst thing in the world is when a good friend message, how are you? And then they write a whole essay. Can't do that. Just pick up the phone.

Starting point is 00:02:40 Very old fashioned, I suppose, in some people's views. But in another way, it's the best way to have a conversation. How has your job, whatever it is, it might not be anything that defines you. Some people's jobs do, some people don't. Some people give them, you know, their job gives them more power, makes them feel more empowered. Others do their job just as a way of earning money. That's very important, of course, but in no way defines them. But perhaps it has altered you in some way. Have a think. Let me know. 84844 is the number you need to text me here at Women's Hour. You will be charged at your standard message rate.

Starting point is 00:03:12 Do check what those are. On social media, you can get in touch with me on how your job has altered you, for the better or for the worse, at BBC Women's Hour, or email me through the Women's Hour website. But first, while the sleaze debate rumbles on in Parliament, elsewhere in politics today, the Foreign Secretary and Minister for Women and Equalities, Liz Truss is announcing a renewed campaign to tackle sexual violence against women and girls in conflict around the world. This includes some new funding and an attempt to seek a new global agreement to

Starting point is 00:03:42 condemn the use of rape and sexual violence as weapons of war as a red line on par with the use of chemical weapons. The campaign is a response to a report by the Gender Equality Advisory Council, an independent group of experts convened by the Prime Minister under the UK's G7 presidency, the chair of which, Sarah Sands, of course a journalist formerly of this parish, in fact the former editor of Radio 4's Today programme, I'm hoping to talk to very shortly indeed. But first, I'm actually going to start with Baroness Armin Kahelik, who's a Conservative peer in the House of Lords, and she started off the UK's government's programme to tackle sexual violence in conflict zones. It was launched by the then Foreign Secretary, Lord William Hague, as he is now. And you may remember the Hollywood actor Angelina Jolie also playing a frontline role in

Starting point is 00:04:30 that. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for joining us today. This is being billed as a new campaign, but in many ways, this is carrying on what you began. Well, in a way it is. I haven't heard that it's being billed as a new campaign. It is, as far as I understand, the Foreign Secretary will kickstart a major new push to the campaign that started in 2012 with the aim of shuttering the culture of impunity that surrounds use of rape and sexual violence as a weapon of war. And i believe that there is other announcements that are coming in terms of uh having a another summit 10 years since the original summit in 2012 etc and there's a whole package of measures that are going to be taken and i think one can

Starting point is 00:05:17 be nothing but pleased and and welcome this step that the foreign secretary has taken because the the support and and energy that was put in this initiative since William Hague left government in 2015 was a little bit lacking. And the fact that we have the Foreign Secretary putting her own stamp on this initiative is going to be of enormous support. And I hope it's going to show some real results, particularly in the field and particularly in emergencies where these horrible crimes take place. So with the lack of interest there has been in the intervening years,

Starting point is 00:05:56 have we not made the progress we should have made? Well, we haven't made as much progress as we should have or could have because other events intervened. And maybe there was not as much focus by the foreign secretaries over the last five, six years. Well, the foreign secretary of the last... Sorry, just to say the foreign secretary of the last five or six years includes the present-day prime minister. Yes, yes, absolutely, yes.

Starting point is 00:06:25 And, you know, maybe just by sheer existence of a Preventing Sexual Violence Initiative, he was sort of inspired to start his great initiative on schools and educations and girls' education, which is, you know, one can be nothing but complimentary about. But I wouldn't say that that sort of four or five foreign secretaries that we had in this interim period have had as much vision as I think the current foreign secretary seems to be indicating that she is going to apply to this

Starting point is 00:06:58 particular cause. Is the money enough? I'm hoping to go through that, as I say, with Sarah Sands in just a moment. But more than 20 million of new funding has been promised, 22.4 million, 18 million of which is to be focused on ending child marriage, 3 million to give a boost to organisations on the front lines to tackle violence against women and girls, and 1.4 million for the global, what's called a global survivors fund is that enough i i think it's one element of this of the of the solution to this problem you cannot throw money onto a problem expect that it's going to be resolved there are two other things that need to need to change the first thing is we need to we need to change the way we consider this guy this crime is treated this cannot be something that is just acceptable it has to be we have to change the the way we think and react to this and that is going to that's a generational change that cannot happen within one uh the context of one uh summit or

Starting point is 00:07:58 context of one uh foreign secretary's tenure etc and the second thing, I really desperately hope that the Foreign Secretary is going to take that final step and seize this opportunity to call and to set up an independent international body that is going to be able to investigate in an impartial way and document crimes, gather evidence and work towards prosecutions, because it's only by creating real consequences for perpetrators that we can end the culture of impunity, deliver aid and justice to the victims of these appalling crimes. And that ought to be the final destination that we want to arrive to. Sorry, why do we need that when people may talk about

Starting point is 00:08:40 international courts that already exist? Because these courts do not tackle these crimes. And these courts, in order to have this kind of crime being taken into court, evidence has to be collected in an impeccable way. The evidence has to be collected in a way that is admissible in court. We haven't been able to provide this evidence so far. There are a handful of cases where we have seen that someone has been taken

Starting point is 00:09:13 and that justice has been served. Millions of survivors of sexual violence, whether girls or women, even men, have never seen justice. And that's why we need something that is going to be permanent, that is going to be able to gather this evidence and that is going to be able to take this evidence to whichever court. It's not whether it's international, regional or national court. It doesn't really matter. We need to be able to present the evidence and we need to be able to stop this impunity, which has been absolutely rampant when it comes to this crime. As you say, though, it's been nearly 10 years since this was set up by yourself with now Lord Hague.

Starting point is 00:09:49 Why hasn't that been established? Well, it hasn't because, you know, that was one of the ideas when the summit took place some nine years ago. And as I say, in order for these bodies to be established, you have to have strong political will. And that will has to come from countries like the United Kingdom or United States or countries like Germany or France, countries that have certain power in these international arenas

Starting point is 00:10:18 and they can pull together resources and pull together support from different countries. And I'm afraid we haven't had that, which doesn't mean that we don't need it. It is high time that we have this body established. And I sincerely hope that the steps that the Foreign Secretary has taken are just the initial steps and that they will eventually end in setting up this body, because it would be amazing just for the victims, those survivors, to know that they're worth something, that someone is going to pay for the crimes that have been committed and the hurt and that has been caused to them. Coming back to the money, and I believe I can go to Sarah Sands

Starting point is 00:10:55 in just a moment, but some will say this is an absolute drop in the ocean. I recognise it's not the whole piece here, but there's also the piece that Liz Truss is talking about today, restoring what was cut from the point of view of the women's budget, the women and girls budget in this area from overseas aid. So there's already been a deficit in this area. And this amount of money, 22.4 million, is just tiny, absolutely tiny. What can you actually achieve with that? I think think the fact that she is signalling that she is taking this issue seriously,

Starting point is 00:11:30 the fact that she's putting this money into trying to address these appalling cries and appalling behaviour towards women and treatment of women and girls is a start. But aren't we just, sorry to interrupt, but aren't we just back at the beginning? You know, from nine years ago? No, we're not back at the beginning, you know, from nine years ago?

Starting point is 00:11:45 No, we're not back at the beginning. No, we're not. I tell you what. But what I was going to say is, if there's been a lack of political will in the intervening years, to the point where something you said nine years ago hasn't even come anywhere close to happening, that one of the main ideas to get to about justice, you know, more money than the restoration of money that had already been cut. Isn't this just back to very, very near the beginning of the cycle? I don't think it is because things have been done. The sheer fact that we are discussing this today, the sheer fact that there are hundreds of countries that have signed up for the protocol that can be used in investigating these crimes, the sheer fact that we have deployments in different countries, I think around 12 countries where these crimes have taken place, the fact that we have established Murad codes that have been other steps that have been taken by the government doesn't

Starting point is 00:12:35 mean that this initiative was kept dormant or that it died and now has been resurrected. What it means today is that we have a foreign secretary in Charles Street, someone who has taken this seriously, someone who wants to make a particular point of taking this forward a step further. And as I said, it's good to have funding for different initiatives. It's good to have a red line. Let's now operationalize this and have this

Starting point is 00:13:05 international body and really start turning this around. And as I said, this is a generational change. We have to change attitudes. Rape cannot be accepted as a normal behavior in a conflict. I wanted to come to that about changing attitudes, because that's incredibly hard work. It takes time, as you've said, about generations. And actually, we need to understand where this money's going to go. I mean, I've outlined how it's been apportioned. But for instance, what's happened also in the intervening nine years, certainly in the last two years, is that there's now some lack of trust in certain NGOs or charities who've been shown to be involved in abuse themselves. That's been only uncovered in the last couple

Starting point is 00:13:45 of years. Who do you see as the key players in changing hearts and minds? I think you will change hearts and minds. Well, not only hearts and minds, you will change what is acceptable, what is not acceptable. And you will change it when you can prove that the price of committing this crime is pretty high, that someone is going to go down. And it's not only going to be to the perpetrator, but for those in the chain of command who have in any way allowed, instigated, or planned for these operations of these crimes to be taking place, whether that is in Myanmar, whether that's in Ethiopia, whether that is in Colombia, whether that's in Kosovo, whether that is in Bosnia, you name it. Every one of these conflicts has had this problem.

Starting point is 00:14:30 We need to see that those who commit crimes are not going to be celebrated by their groups and countries, but they are going to go down and they're going to take this crime on and they're actually going to pay a price for committing it. It's not a byproduct. This usually, rape is the cheapest tool that is used in operations, in ethnic cleansing, in genocide, etc. It hurts the individual.

Starting point is 00:14:57 It hurts their family. It hurts their community. It humiliates them. And we need to do absolutely everything we can in our power to make sure that this is not something that's acceptable it's not afterthought when we have a peace deal but it's at the heart in the center of it what you're saying there is though that's about a deterrent that's going back to the original thought about having a way of punishing i suppose what i'm asking is and especially for for our listeners you know when it's when it's taxpayers money going out, is that money going to be used? And how or with whom to try and stop those behaviours

Starting point is 00:15:33 before we get some sort of court? There is no money that you can throw at this problem, that in isolation of other elements that are needed to be put in place is going to resolve this. So this is one part of that package, if you want. And I strongly believe if we have enough funding, and this funding will go not to stop it per se, but it will help to look after the survivors of these crimes. Because when this crime happens, you have to have not only food and shelter, you also have to have medical support, you also have to have trauma support, you also have to be able to be interviewed in a way where you, as a victim, feel comfortable to talk about this, and where evidence that's taken from you

Starting point is 00:16:22 will be taken to the place where it can be presented in a court, for example, as you said at the beginning. So it's very important to understand this distinction, and thank you for helping us with this, that the money and the efforts in one sense go towards looking after those and getting evidence and testimony from those who have survived this and been through this. So that's the support. And the other side of it is the political side and having the political will to bring those people, those individuals to account. That's correct. That's

Starting point is 00:16:52 correct. And in terms of the countries or those who are the most, you know, need to be brought to account, who are the priority? You know, the biggest criminals here, who are we priority you know the biggest criminals here who are we talking about well we're talking i mean if you if you look at for example the just the latest that we have seen over the last few years you see what has been done in myanmar you see how many how many survivors of sexual violence there are among the rohingya refugees currently living in bangladesh if you read about the reports of sexual violence that has been committed on both sides in the conflict in Ethiopia, those are the current situations. But then you have situations in South Sudan, you have situations and unresolved cases elsewhere in the world, in Iraq, in Syria, etc. The sad part of this problem is that it has

Starting point is 00:17:50 been around for hundreds of years, that it has never been taken seriously enough for us to say, enough's enough. We are going to have a body that is going to investigate it. We are going to see that people pay the price for committing that crime. The reason I'm also asking about that political will globally, though, is we've just watched COP26. And while certain jumps or moments or steps forward were made, people also felt steps were taken backwards and watching the world not be able to convene and get to where it wanted to get to with regards to coal and some of the commitments there you know how much faith should people have in global leaders to be able to do something like this if i may go back to the beginning of this program when we were talking about people how the how the

Starting point is 00:18:43 job that they do has changed them yes i i strongly believe and what i have learned from my personal experience of working in politics and outside is that you cannot give up because someone else has not fully succeeded we cannot it is down to us to do our absolute best when we have an opportunity to try and make a change. Are we going to succeed 100%? I don't know. But if we can succeed 60% or 70%, I think that will be a very good start for the next generation to pick up and say, in 50 years time, would you believe it? These things could take place and no one ever took responsibility for it. And isn't it good that someone started somewhere? And I really hope that we should try and inject some optimism

Starting point is 00:19:30 and give some sort of energy and support to the Foreign Secretary, who I really congratulate on taking this on because it's not an easy one. And I hope that she succeeds where others may have not. Well, there is an open invitation. She was also invited on this morning to Liz's Trust. Of course, a busy day for her. And we hope to welcome her to Women's Hour very soon. Indeed, of course, she's also the Minister for Women and Equalities.

Starting point is 00:19:58 You've been listening to Baroness Arminka Hellick, Conservative Peer in the House of Lords, who started off this government's programme to tackle sexual violence in conflict zones coming up to nearly 10 years ago. Thank you very much for your reflections today to put some of that in context when we hear about announcements of new money and the restoration of cuts to the international aid budget, which, of course, was controversial to many. But that now that part that's targeted towards women and girls being restored today by the Foreign Secretary. You've been getting in touch on that point that we just finished off with Baroness Ahalik there about your roles and your jobs and how they've changed you. Some brilliant messages coming in. I'm a cancer nurse and I'm

Starting point is 00:20:38 more empathetic and realise everyone struggles. I forgive people easily and I don't take life too seriously. Quite, quite, as I know how short and precious life is. Another forgive people easily and I don't take life too seriously. Quite, quite. As I know how short and precious life is. Another one here, I suppose, on that point. I gave up teaching seven years ago as I was deeply unhappy. I'm now a self-employed gardener and extremely happy. And back to my old happy self again. Best decision I ever made.

Starting point is 00:21:00 And after 16 years of working in offender learning, I've come to the conclusion I have learned a lot more than I have taught. Keep those messages please coming in on 84844. Well let's talk now to the former Netball England international and England head coach Tracey Neville who's supporting a new campaign called Coach the Coaches to encourage young women from extremely deprived areas to use sport to help improve their mental health and their career opportunities. Tracy Neville, good morning. Good morning, how are you doing? Well we're thinking a lot about jobs, careers, who we are this morning on the programme. Perhaps I'll ask you the same question at the end but with Coach the Coaches, I know it's about 16 to 24 year olds trying to give them the skills needed yeah definitely you know the research suggests that most females drop out of sport between that 16 19 and it's about retaining

Starting point is 00:21:51 them in that to obviously have a longevity within within physical activity and we all know what they're you know the health benefits of participating in physical activity but more the mental well-being as well and that has been sort of proven through some research that has been done at Leeds Beckett University where you know by participating in programs like coach the coaches are being involved in physical activity you know it enables more girls to go on and get more qualifications gives them more confidence gives them more of a positive outlook on life, but more importantly, you know, gets them out the house.

Starting point is 00:22:33 And with the pandemic that we've just had, I think this becomes more apparent as an initiative going forward. Yes, well, and I think what's fascinating about that research that you mentioned, Leeds Beckett University's been looking across 10,000 young people in deprived communities across five UK cities and they showed that if they took part in the sports programme majority of them their career prospects were boosted and that was higher amongst women but the research also looked at the importance of having a coach from a similar background. Yeah and if I go back to my childhood um you know my my coach you know she was working

Starting point is 00:23:07 class she was from a similar area to me and she sort of had the same um upbringing as me and we had a lot of common similarities and I think that's really really important um and and I find that now um coaching even at the elite level when I go into different environments, it's crucial that I put a team around me that fits with the environment. We have a lot more personalities and people come through a different upbringing. People have different interests, you know, and whether that's across nutrition, physiologically, whatever. And I think we need to now find common ground in people and I think when you have you know you know your friendship when you you know they say you can't choose your family but you can choose your friends you know your friends are people that you you've sort of selected through your life or I've had a history with that and and something in common

Starting point is 00:24:00 that you really get on with and enables you to turn up to stuff. And I think social interaction is really important. And I also think what's important to kind of make the point about here and stress is that women need to know, I suppose, that coaching can be a career. You know, the professionalisation of women's sport is still relatively recent in some areas, isn't it? You know, I was the first coach in netball to try and professionalise a sport.

Starting point is 00:24:24 I remember as a keen goal defender, Tracy. You know, the best position on the court. Let's not be deceiving ourselves. I have to say the goal attack, come on. What? They got all the glory. Exactly. We're the buffers.

Starting point is 00:24:38 You always have to make sure your eyebrows are done. Because the camera almost comes to you. There were no cameras where I was playing. You carry on. I forgot even the question now, I know I haven't. Sorry, about the professionalisation of women coaches. So, you know, if I think about, you know, when I was growing up with Gary and Phil,

Starting point is 00:24:56 you know, I didn't actually know there was... Those brothers, yeah? Those brothers. I didn't even realise there was an inequality within sport until I was about 14. And I was there selecting my GCSEs, until i was about 14 and i was there selecting my gcses my a levels and what i wanted to do with the rest of my life and they were there was their decision had been made they'd been signed on a contract with manchester united and

Starting point is 00:25:14 you know they had a career in something that they loved doing something that that you know as a youngster they just used to do you know on in the park or with their friends. They were making a career out of that. And I think that now with initiatives that are being supported by Suntree Beverage and Food with the Coach to Coach programme, you know, they're giving people role models. You know, they're giving people similarities, common grounds. They're giving, you know, there's no getting rid of them barriers to why they want to show up to them, particularly environments.

Starting point is 00:25:48 People said, would I have been a footballer when I was younger? I don't think I would have been. Because I was the only female that was interested in football back then. And that is different now with the visualisation of the sport, being on telly, more access to the sport that people can go and watch now. I think things are changing, but for me, it's not changing quick enough. No, well, that's why we wanted to hear you today on the programme. Thank you for coming on, Tracy. I mean, also, you know, the guys wouldn't be allowed. The boys, certainly I used to speak to about netball,

Starting point is 00:26:15 used to say, well, it's just rubbish basketball where you can't move. Oh, no. I was like, you try and pivot, my friend. You try. Listen, Tracy Neville very very briefly how's your job changed you? Massively it's made me more social interactive it's given me a lot more diversity you know I meet now many people from many walks of life but I think for me it's given me a lot of fun and enjoyment they say you know if you you never have to work if you love your job

Starting point is 00:26:41 and I think that's something that I woke up every day doing. Well, that's what you're, I suppose, also hoping to share with those girls as a potential career for them. Tracey Neville, thanks so much for coming on. I should say at the beginning of our conversation about the previous discussion with regards to this government push from the Foreign Secretary this morning around tackling sexual violence against women and girls in conflicts around the world, I had been hoping to talk to the chair of the Prime Minister's Gender Equality Advisory Council, Sarah Sands. I did mention a couple of times we were unable to reach her, just in case you were wondering what had happened there. But your messages are coming in about how your job has changed you.

Starting point is 00:27:17 Let me just read this one from Terry, who says, Since becoming a foster carer, I've become a much nicer person. I have more patience, tolerance and understanding. I also challenge other people's perceptions about badly behaved children in quotation marks and parents quote who are addicts and putting drugs or alcohol before their children. So more understanding there and an improvement though some of you also saying you're giving up the work or have given up the work that was changing you not in a way that you would have appreciated. Well for an escape from work many of you will pick Strictly Come Dancing and on Saturday in a way that you would have appreciated. Well, for an escape from work,

Starting point is 00:27:45 many of you will pick Strictly Come Dancing. And on Saturday, in a clip that has gone rightly viral, Rose Ayling-Ellis and her partner Giovanni Panisse danced part of their routine on Strictly with no music. It was amazing. Silent section and a chance to enter her world and a tribute to the deaf community. I just want to be part of your symphony If you hold me tight and I'll let go Symphony Like a light on a radio If you hold me tight and don't let go

Starting point is 00:28:48 Oh, it's just wonderful. I hope you have seen it. If you haven't, check it out. Even if you're not a Strictly fan, and I know there are some of you amongst us who aren't, this is what Rose had to say after the dance to her partner Giovanni. I feel very, very thankful for your determination

Starting point is 00:29:04 to make this day the most positive, happy day it can be, because you know that being deaf, there's nothing wrong, it's such a joy to be deaf, and I think that says a lot about you as a person. What are you doing to me? What are you doing to me, he says, very emotional. Rose, who normally stars in EastEnders,

Starting point is 00:29:27 is one of several female deaf actors to grace our screens. Sophie Lee Stone was the first deaf actress to win a place at RADA and to take part in Doctor Who. Gabriella Leon plays Jade Lovell in Casualty. And now in the latest Marvel movie, Eternals, they're starring Lauren Ridloff as the deaf superhero, Makare. So what effect is this increased visibility of deaf women having on the wider deaf community? I'm joined now by Camilla Arnold,

Starting point is 00:29:52 a friend of Rose's and the BBC's first deaf series producer, and Teresa Waldron, the managing director of Deaf in Italy Women, a charity supporting deaf women in Derby. And just before we start, I want to explain to all of you that, Teresa, you're going to be using live captions on our video call to read my questions. And Camilla is with a sign language interpreter who's going to sign to you on our video call live as I speak. So there may be a slight delay when Camilla comes back to me but let's start with you Camilla if I may because as I say you're friends with Rose and I wanted to get your reaction to that dance and how it's been received by the deaf community. Well really Rose has been a real trailblazer for the deaf community she has been such a positive representation and role model for both deaf adults and deaf children and we are so so proud of her I think it's been so special to just see her using sign language

Starting point is 00:31:00 on screen and in a very normal way you know very normal sign language she just happens to be deaf and you know that's so important it's about her talent and about her dance is the most special thing and you know she's using just that method method of communication which is sign language it's been so lovely to see as well using sign language interpreters on screen because normally like the use of interpreters um isn't shown on screen. So, you know, and we're doing that today in this course. So thank you. And I'm very, very proud of her. I bet. And I'm very, very happy we can talk like this today. So thank you for joining us.

Starting point is 00:31:34 Let me go to Teresa watching in Derby. How did it make you feel? And what has the response been to those that you talk to in the community? Well, I am just so proud of both of her achievements. And also, I'm really pleased that BBC is taking on more disabled actors, involving more disabled people in the work, including deaf and deafblind women. So, yeah, the response from Deafinitely Women has been fantastic. So we are very pleased,

Starting point is 00:32:13 we're cheering her on, we're so proud of her. And it's about time that, you know, Deaf women are pushed, you know, in the limelight, take on more senior roles take on uh more jobs with responsibility um so yeah i applaud um every single deaf woman taking part let me also ask you theresa uh about what she said when she said rose was talking to giovanni afterwards and she talked about it being such a joy to be deaf. And I wonder what your response was to that. I totally understand that because I've been deaf from birth, but I do have a deafblind condition, which is hereditary.

Starting point is 00:32:57 And at the age of 33, I was diagnosed with having a deafblind condition called Usher syndrome. I had some inkling from the age of 17, but I was driving right up to the age of 33 before I was diagnosed. And prior to my diagnosis, for the last three years, I've been driving illegally, which is quite shocking, really. So I had to surrender my driving licence. But my colleagues at Derbyshire Law Centre, they've been so fantastic. And, you know,

Starting point is 00:33:32 just going back to Rose, how she thanked Giovanni about his determination and support. My colleagues at Derbyshire Law Centre have been so supportive and I've been there for 27 years and I'm one of the senior managers so I think it's about having people around you colleagues friends and family sort of understanding about deafness but realising there is no barrier all right we have some obstacles to get over but you know with the power of digital technology like today i wouldn't have been able to take part in this discussion without this you know without live captions so it's just absolutely fantastic and also at definitely women we've been around since 2015 and managing director there and we have a committee of 10 deaf women, half of which is signed just like Camilla,

Starting point is 00:34:27 and the other half are deaf women who speak. So deaf, blind, hard of hearing, and so on. So going back to Rose's comments about being proud to be deaf, yeah, I totally agree with her. I'm proud to be deaf. And also women who are quite hearing loss later in life, they need to connect with us just to share that infectious camaraderie and sharing tips of how we cope. You know, the coping strategies that we develop from an early age. And vice versa, we learn more from them as well.

Starting point is 00:35:03 You know, those who are deaf and or hard of hearing, we learn more from them. So we need each other. Let me bring Camilla back in on that, because I wanted to hear, Camilla, what you thought about Rose's message as well, saying it's such a joy to be deaf. Yes, absolutely. I mean, I was born deaf myself as well. And I've got a deaf brother, and I'm also married to a deaf man, and he's got a very extended deaf family. So, you know, I've been around deaf people for my whole life, and, you know, especially at the moment, it's such a brilliant time for the deaf community. We're finally being represented on screen. So through Rose Rose and not just

Starting point is 00:35:46 Rose but also through the bigger films like Eternal as you've mentioned we've had the first deaf superhero Lauren Ridloff and we've also seen Millicent Simmons in A Quiet Place and she's such a strong female lead character so that's what I'm so excited about. And I'm very excited also that we can see deaf people being represented as normal human beings. You know, they just happen to be deaf. And that's the main thing for me. And I'm also a series producer for the BBC show See Here, which is a deaf program for a magazine show for deaf and hard and hearing audience so I get so many messages recently from new followers and people reconnecting with us and maybe accepting their deaf identity for the first time and understanding deafness because we have role models now such as Rose and other actresses on screen particularly this year so it's an absolute joy to be deaf I totally agree with you

Starting point is 00:36:41 yes see here just celebrated its 40th anniversary last month. So very good to hear about that with regards to the BBC. Teresa, just finally to you, I know you do organise classes and events for your women that you work with through your programme, Definitely Women. Any plans for ballroom dance classes? Oh, we will be putting on more dancing workshops. All our workshops are fully accessible we use zoom and we use um uh sound language interpreters as well um but um we also have in-person classes so every workshop that we put on we always book two sound language interpreters and two speech to text-text operators to provide subtitles.

Starting point is 00:37:27 So that way all deaf women are fully inclusive and can take part. There are a lot of classes out there, you know, adult education, not fully accessible for all deaf women, so there needs to be more. So, for example, adult literacy and numeracy, they need to be more classed. They're especially adapted for deaf people, never mind deaf women. Teresa Waldron, thank you very much for joining us. And thank you to you, Camilla Arnold. A couple of messages just came in. Sarah says, I just love watching Rose. She's a great dancer and has a lovely personality. She's totally comfortable

Starting point is 00:38:06 in her own skin and that's something many of us can learn from, me included. The silence just now, hearing it again, that clip had me in tears. Having seen Rose's performance on Strictly, she's a wonderfully vibrant young woman. So a lot of appeal and joy coming in

Starting point is 00:38:22 from you who have watched it or maybe just hearing about this for the first time, far beyond the deaf community, but also very interesting for us to hear how within the deaf community this is having an impact. So thank you so much for my guests' contributions there. Now, I have been talking to you throughout the programme about how your work has changed you for good or for worse or perhaps a little bit not how you expected.

Starting point is 00:38:44 There's all sorts of messages coming in. And for instance, one here saying, one incident at work completely changed my life. As a teacher, I attended safeguard training. One year, the trainer taught us about emotional abuse. I sat listening in shock. I realised my marriage had so many of these things in it. And as a consequence, six years of therapy,

Starting point is 00:39:01 discussed my marriage with my husband, who didn't realise the implications of his behaviour. We've had couples counselling and we've turned our marriage around. What an incredible story about something to do with work. Within a year of chairing a charity, positively promoting and supporting people on the autistic spectrum,

Starting point is 00:39:20 I was diagnosed with ASD. It was a life-changing emotional rollercoaster. My goodness. Well, the reason we were having this discussion is because of somebody who has been charting, a very famous woman indeed, for many years and seeing how her work has changed her. Angela Merkel stepping down as German Chancellor

Starting point is 00:39:38 after 16 years in power, bringing to an end a political career that has spanned more than three decades. But back in 1991, when Angela was end a political career that has spanned more than three decades. But back in 1991, when Angela was Minister for Women and Youth, long before she became Chancellor, the photographer, Herlinda Colville, began photographing her every year in a project called Traces of Power. This event took place across a 30-year period. There was a brief sort of break in the middle, I should say, but the photos are now

Starting point is 00:40:06 displayed in an amazing new book because it's also got the content of their conversation while the photographs were happening. And the book is called Angela Merkel Portraits, 91 to 2021. Helinda, good morning. Good morning. I wanted to start with your impressions when you first met Angela Merkel back in 1991. Yeah, 1991, she was from the outside, you know, she just she was a scientist. And so it was a new world for her. And she was quite shy and a little bit awkward. But even so, she had some power and energy and especially also her own will already and but even so she was impressive and also she was learning very very fast to get along with this in the world of politics. And you ask her a few questions each year that you met and were meeting. And I

Starting point is 00:41:08 suppose we could talk visually how she changes, but also how she changes as a person. Do you think she became more private or did she open up to you as you got to know her? Because at the same time as you were getting to know her, she was becoming more famous. That's right. But she did it in two ways. You know, in one way, she really realized very soon that she had to cover her private life. Because if you're a woman in politics, a minister, you live a life like in a window display, you know. And so she learned to cover it and to shut it down in a certain way.

Starting point is 00:41:51 But in the other hand, she was open very, very, very much in my interviews with her. She talked about what she had to learn and what And once she was saying also, I can't imagine that my life will be the same way as it now. So she had to really learn to accompany this life. So it was both ways. In my interviews, she was open. And in the other hand, she covered her private life. Yes.

Starting point is 00:42:22 I mean, the other thing about how you portray yourself and put yourself forward as a woman, especially as a woman in politics, it's very tricky for a lot of women. And I was reading only recently the former advisor to our former prime minister, Theresa May, was saying that she had seen that if women displayed emotion in public, they were seen as weak. Whereas if men did it, they were seen as weak. Whereas if men did it, they were seen as strong. So she didn't use to show any emotion at all. In the beginning, she was, in a way, she was learning very fast because, and also she was a scientist before. And as a scientist, you have to be very analytical. Otherwise, all the experiments will fail. So it's a basic thinking in her, analytical thinking. Look what it is and then learn and then you should think what you can do.

Starting point is 00:43:16 So that helped her a lot to not to be too emotional. But it's also part of herself and um so uh and also she kept her ego always in check yes and then and she also developed what's the diamond the way of doing her hands is that what we're talking about yeah you know it's i have to explain that i always photographed her in front of a white wall, just with a simple chair. And I didn't give any orders what she had to do, because I really wanted to see what her own language, body language. And the body language changed a lot, especially in the beginning. You can see in the beginning she's unsecure and awkward, and then suddenly, slowly, slowly, she gets more confident,

Starting point is 00:44:13 and you could also see it in the body language. Shoulders get up, and she was standing more on the feet on the ground. So you really could see both the change of the thinking and change of the body language. And 1989, 1998, suddenly when I photographed her, the so-called Merkel diamond show up. And it was so, I was surprised because it was spontaneously and I think later on she realized that it's very comfortable to keep the hand in in a certain pose and it keeps you

Starting point is 00:44:55 the body intense when you have to listen to speeches and so on so it really it was then her it's a symbol of her then later on yeah yeah she it's the way she holds her hands i mean what to do with one's hands in a photograph if you're standing there with nothing to hold is very tricky um often women are i've seen a lot of women have photos with their hands on their hip uh which i personally myself i loathe doing because i think it makes you look a certain way that's not natural necessarily but it is useful because it creates a shape so to find something I mean that's why I worship clothes with pockets in especially dresses because there's something to do and I think that's fascinating how

Starting point is 00:45:35 she changed she also didn't used to wear makeup when you started photographing her and that changed yeah you know all the years in the beginning, I think almost eight years, she didn't wear any makeup. But then later on, of course, when she was chancellor, she had always very good makeup. That's her style. And I think as a chancellor, you have to do this. Otherwise, as a woman, of course, you're always especially as a woman, you're always under control of the public. And that's also one thing when you live in a like in a window display, everything, what you're doing, what you're talking, what you're wearing will be judged and will be written about it. But it would have been cool if she carried on not wearing makeup, some would argue. But it's also understood to be, as you've just described, there's a quote that's used from your interviews by a lot of journalists with regards when they were trying to figure out when she was going to step down.

Starting point is 00:46:36 And she said to you in 1998, I would like at some point to find the right moment to exit politics. I don't want to be a half dead wreck. Now, she has been through an enormous amount and, you know, not without her controversies politically. I know that's what this interview, you know, we're not talking about that in this interview, but she is about to step down. And I wonder how much she has changed and if she's achieved her ambition not to be a half dead wreck. I think, you know, she's very smart and she is the first one in Germany. I don't know in England, but at least in Germany who really stepped back by her free will. And mainly people don't give up the power. Power is so seductive and so, yeah, like, I would say, like you're dependent on power.

Starting point is 00:47:33 And so it's her, I think that's very special of Angela Merkel, that she did it the first time. And so she has a second life, you know, now. And everybody is now curious what she will do, but she doesn't talk about it. Are you going to keep photographing her? Has she still got a date in her diary? I would like to do it. But, you know, normally when Angela Merkel says no or it's finished,

Starting point is 00:48:02 then it's finished, you know. It's not half-half. No. OK, well, it's quite a striking book indeed. Thank you very much for talking to us today. The book is called Angela Merkel Portraits 1991 to 2021 with Herlinda Coble as the photographer and the interviewer during those years with Angela Merkel. And you, as I say, so many great messages coming in

Starting point is 00:48:26 about how your job has changed you. If I can, I'll come back to a few more of those. But keeping with the theme of work, women who continue to work from home risk damaging their careers. Now staff are returning to the office. Excuse me. That's a stark warning from top Bank of England official Catherine Mann that came out at the end of last week.

Starting point is 00:48:44 She was talking to women in finance. She said not returning to the office will result in two track career development. But how true is that for all women within finance and beyond? Beyond the Resolution Foundation's research director, Lindsay Judge, joins me now. Also, Emma Stewart, co-founder and development director at TimeWise, a flexible working consultancy. In fact, actually, if I start with you, Emma, what did you make of that when you saw those remarks? Because, of course, so much of what you do is about flex, having that in your work. I think she's right to flag the risk. And there is a real risk. But I also think,

Starting point is 00:49:20 let's not forget that this is a new problem. I think the pandemic has amplified the inequalities that people who choose or need to work flexibly have. We've just focused at the moment on remote working, but there has been a significant inequality for women, particularly choosing to work part time for many, many years. It's one of the socioeconomic impact? And should women take notice and try and get back into the office if they have, in fact, been at home? Well, it's definitely true that women have chosen to work from home more during the pandemic period. And also when we look at surveys, we see that women are keener to continue with hybrid working or remote working than men. I think-

Starting point is 00:50:10 I'd question keener just slightly. I mean, in the sense of that might be the upshot, but they may have no choice. That's also true. I mean, again, when we look at how the pandemic has played out to date, we can see that women, and particularly, of course, mums, let's be honest, it's mainly mums

Starting point is 00:50:25 rather than women per se, have had to spend more time at home. And obviously, especially during lockdowns when schools were closed. I think it's a little bit too early to be entirely kind of pessimistic about this prospect. I mean, the fact that we've all adapted so much during the pandemic and employers have radically changed their working practices. I think the question is how much that will become normalised. And I think there's signs that for some employers that that is something that they're keen to embrace and they're keen to allow people to those flexibilities

Starting point is 00:50:58 that lots of women have been demanding for many years and will make that work. But I suspect that there will be this kind of creeping back to our kind of traditional working practices. And again, of course, as Emma's work has shown with part time working, that often comes with some significant downsides for women. And just to stay with you, Lindsay, for a moment. Do you think this then means that businesses are going to have to think differently about who they prioritise and how they prioritise them when they do have offices which can be this kind of hybrid setup, you know, making sure they do listen to those who are at home? Or do you think we should just be in a situation of trying to get everybody

Starting point is 00:51:35 back in? I think that, I think again, the pandemic has shown that it is possible to work from home. And I think the biggest risk actually isn't when we're all at home or we're all in the office. The biggest risk is when some of us are at home and some of us aren't in the office and whether we get that kind of twin track that Catherine Mann has alluded to. I mean, you'd like to think, wouldn't you, that firms recognise the talent that women bring to the workplace and would do everything they could to allow women and indeed men, because, you know, we should remember lots of men are also quite keen to work from home

Starting point is 00:52:07 or especially, again, if they've got caring responsibilities, that you would do as much as possible to draw them into the workplace and to allow them to progress and kind of shine. I think the thing that is worrying, perhaps, is if we look at data on the gender pay gap, for example, we can see in studies that one of the reasons that the pay gap exists is because women aren't present so much in the workplace. And so, you know, I totally agree with what Emma said, which is that the record in the past doesn't look particularly impressive. However, I think we should recognise that the pandemic has been a major shift in

Starting point is 00:52:40 attitudes, and we just need to hang on to the good stuff there. If we go back Emma to prioritising as this sort of argument may lead us along those lines of prioritising being in the office do you think an opportunity will have been squandered? I think it's about how we adjust our thinking and particularly businesses and managers just are thinking to why we need to be in the office um so it's about re-establishing the reasons for being in the office versus being at home as opposed to just creating a new paradigm two days in three days at home or something like that and that's about um thinking about the tasks and it's about um being more proactive not just leaving individuals to work this out for themselves, but as businesses understanding we need to be in

Starting point is 00:53:28 because we are collaborating together. We need to be in because we are doing some kind of team-based work. I mean, not all the evidence shows that actually full homeworking is quite challenging, but it's about choosing the reasons to be in. And then it's about enabling the people who aren't in to also have that kind of communication that enables them to be a bit more spontaneous as well.

Starting point is 00:53:49 So these sort of collisions that we have when we're in the office and the informal conversations that often create the sense of proximity bias and people being given good opportunities because they're right next to the boss. We need to break down some of those walls and create a fairer approach to both hybrid and other forms of flex. That's the ideal. But women take it, exactly as Catherine

Starting point is 00:54:25 has said, it will end up harming women's careers and an ability to earn equally. And that actually, if women have driven that, there'll be a kind of horrible irony to that. If businesses don't do anything about it, the point is businesses need to do something about this. But do you have faith that they will, I suppose, with the experience that you've had and how slow the progress has been up until this point to take people who, for instance, work part time seriously? I think I agree with Lindsay. I think the last 18 months have shown us that many businesses have learned a huge amount about how to make flexible working work. I think that the ones that we're certainly supporting are capturing those learnings, embedding them. It's still early days. You know, we've had a huge change. Everyone was forced to do something different. Now it's about how we enable people to choose to work differently in different ways. And we're all

Starting point is 00:55:20 on a learning curve and lots of businesses are still working this out. And I think we have to be careful about not making too many conclusions that it's going to be a negative outcome. I think there are some great examples. And also, I think let's not forget that hybrid is just one form of flexible working. Half the population didn't have the joy of hybrid working in a pandemic. I was just about to come on to that. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, women who work in care, women who are teachers, women who work in retail, this is not a conversation they're part of. And that's also something we need to address. Yes, and we will and we will continue to do so.

Starting point is 00:55:53 Very briefly from you, Lindsay, do you have a concern that employers will question the commitment of women who choose to continue with hybrid working? I think it's a very difficult thing to answer sort of en masse. I mean, I suspect there will be some that will and there'll be some that won't. And as Emma pointed out, the kind of key thing is to encourage as many into that latter camp as possible. I mean, the other the other positive, of course, is this could actually help more women actually work. So we shouldn't we shouldn't sort of forget that as well. There may be some downsides in terms of career progression and we need to mitigate against that as far as possible. But of

Starting point is 00:56:30 course hybrid working may allow women who may have struggled to work to actually participate in the workplace or enter the workplace perhaps when their children are younger and they may not have done so. So again it's really early at this point in time to sort of say how this will all shake out but I think we should be trying to capture the positive gains and minimise the negative as far as possible. OK, you know, listen, I've got to go both ways on that. And when a negative sound has come from a woman at the Bank of England, we've got to explore it because some people, of course, are very concerned. But you're right. Also, some optimism. And I have to say, optimism coming in from many of our listeners this morning. Emma Stewart, Lindsay Judge, thank you to you.

Starting point is 00:57:07 And this message, I'm 70. I've been teaching piano, going back to what you've learned from your job or how it's changed you all my life. I'll never be rich, but I'm richly filled with the joy of sharing music. It'll always give me hope, joy and helps me see life through the lens of composers and through the efforts of my pupils. My job helps me be the person I was born to be. There you go. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

Starting point is 00:57:36 Hi, I'm John Ronson and I want to tell you about a new podcast I've made for BBC Radio 4. It's called Things Fell Apart. If you've ever yelled at someone on social media about, say, cancel culture or mask wearing, then you are a soldier in the culture wars, those everyday battles for dominance between conflicting values. I was curious to learn how things fell apart, and so I decided to go back in history and find the origin stories. There was this ping and there was a bullet flying around the house. I had no idea but I've uncovered some extraordinary people and the strangest most consequential tales. Subscribe now to Things Fell Apart on BBC Sounds.

Starting point is 00:58:28 I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

Starting point is 00:58:45 What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Woman's Hour - Actor Rose Ayling-Ellis in Strictly; Tracey Neville; Rape as a weapon of war; She-cession; Photographing Angela Merkel

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