Woman's Hour - Actor Ruth Wilson. Kinship Care. Rear Admiral Jude Terry. Body hair in history.

Episode Date: March 24, 2022

Best known for The Affair and Luther, and more recently playing her own grandmother in a BBC drama, actor Ruth Wilson joins Emma to talk about her two latest roles – on the London stage in The Human Voice and on screen in True Things.Jude Terry is the first female Rear Admiral in the Royal Navy’s history. Since joining the Navy in 1997, she has served aboard HMS Scott, and spent two spells with helicopter carrier HMS Ocean, during operations in the Baltic and the Gulf. Two months into her post, Emma talks to her about her new role.What’s the best way of looking after children who can no longer stay with their birth parents when a family breaks down? Woman’s Hour understands that the Independent Review of Social Care in England is set to recommend that there should be a renewed focus on alternatives to care with a major focus on kinship care. As the charity Kinship sets out its vision of what needs to change, Emma talks to its Chief Executive, Dr Lucy Peake, and to Meyrem, about what it’s like to be a kinship carer.Woman's Hour delves into the archive to remember Madeleine Albright, the first US Secretary of State. As the Taliban announces girls will not be allowed to attend secondary school, we hear the voices of girls heartbroken by the decision and the reaction of Malala Yousafzai. Why don't women in period dramas have body hair? TV shows go to huge lengths with their sets, costumes and wigs to make you feel like you’re looking back at the past but why – given hair removal is a fairly modern development - is body hair so rarely seen? Historian, Dr Marissa C Rhodes joins Emma to discuss.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Alison Carter Photo Credit: Jan Versweyveld.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. There's a special place in hell for women who don't help each other. The famous words of the history maker Madeleine Albright, of course the first woman to serve as Secretary of State in America, has died aged 84. Today you will hear her voice from the Woman's Hour archive and also from an interview I conducted with her in May 2020, just at the start

of the pandemic, where she was at pains to say, do not write off older people, especially during lockdowns around the world. She also in that conversation demonstrated her excellent turn of phrase, saying she thought there was no way not to have guilt as your middle name as a woman and opened up about why her husband leaving her for another woman kickstarted her career and quest for independence. In fact, she said she got her first proper job at 39. And yes, by 59, she was making history as the first woman to serve as US Secretary of State. But going back to those words, there's a special place in hell for women who don't help each other. Who are the women who have helped you? And who are the women who haven't? I'm going to request for legal reasons I don't get their names

or anywhere near who they are properly in terms of identification. But I think we have to talk about those who do and also who may perhaps be ending up seeing that special place in hell that Madeleine Albright speaks about because, you know, it's not all perfect between women, but it is also an incredibly powerful force when women do get together. So I'd like to reflect both with your help this morning, if you will, especially as we think about what Madeleine Albright was trying to say and also her legacy.

84844 is the number you need to text me here at Women's Hour. As I always say, do remember text will be charged to your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website. Also on today's programme, I'll be joined by the actor Ruth Wilson, who'll be talking

a bit about those amazing but very toxic romantic and sexual relationships, especially at the beginning in light of her new role. Why kinship we'll be hearing could be the answer to some children's care needs. If you don't know what that is, you'll be learning about it soon. I've certainly learnt a lot since hearing about this particular discussion.

And why is there no body hair in period dramas? A historian laments. It's all here on Woman's Hour with you, for you, today. But first, a first. Jude Terry is the first female admiral in the Royal Navy's history. Take that in. She was selected for Rear Admiral last year, and as she put it at the time, someone has to be the first woman, but she won't be the last, she hopes. Since joining the Navy in 1997, she served aboard HMS Scott, spent two spells with helicopter carrier HMS Ocean, the latter as commander logistics during operations in the

Baltic and the Gulf. She's responsible for more than 40,000 sailors and Royal Marines and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. At a time when the world, of course, has been focusing on Ukraine as the country defends itself from Russian invasion. And on the day, world leaders are convening in Brussels for NATO, the G7 and the EU summits. Who better than to be joined by in the studio, Rear Admiral Jude Telly. Terry, good morning. Good morning. Thank you very much for having me. Have I got your title right in the way I addressed you?

You have indeed, Emma. Phew, not made an error, first of all. Why are you the history maker, do you think? I was reflecting on this last night at the Naval Service Women's Network Awards down in Yeovilton. And I think I have had an amazing 24 and a half year career. I joined four years after women were allowed to join with their male counterparts going to sea. And then throughout that 24 years, I've had a varied career where I've been able to be employed in jobs that play to my strengths. So looking after people, looking after people at the centre of everything we do and focusing on operational output.

And I think when you are employed in a job you enjoy, what you're able to do then is you are able to be the best you can be in the job you do. That sounds incredibly caring. And of course, we're talking about the military, talking about looking after people, but also operations. What's that mean in real speak? So first of all, when you join the Navy, you join as a sailor. So that's your first and foremost attribute. And that's what everybody joins at, whether you join as a rating or an officer. And again, it's very similar in the marines you join as a marine um and then it's about looking after your people so you are a leader but you are only a leader if your people want to follow you um and there are different types of leadership and then you what's your what's your particular area so i currently i'm responsible for people and training within the Royal Navy.

So everything from how we attract and recruit people through the system to how I train them through new entry and then to their first line professional skills. Then how I give them a fulfilling and enjoyable career, playing to their strengths, not necessarily putting them through a system that we choose to do. And then how we help them leave well. So how we help them go out into other jobs or how we help them stay to get the best they want to. So at the moment, I'm responsible for our whole force workforce, which also includes the civil service and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. Big job. Big job. Yes. Big job. You enjoying it? I'm loving it. It's really good. I have not spent enough time out and about meeting the people that I am responsible for helping enjoy their career, but I have only been doing it two months.

So hopefully there's more of that to come at this level. OK. And why do you think, as someone who's now tasked with looking after people's career within your part of the armed forces, within the Navy, and as you say, broader with the civil service taking in. Why do you think it's taken so long to have a woman at this level? So it's really interesting. It takes about 20, 24 years to grow any admiral in our service. We are a bottom-fed organisation,

which means that you have to be through the system in order to achieve the rank. We did have our first Commodore was a lady called Carolyn State, and she could have carried on in the service, but she decided she wanted to leave and go and do something else. There is an element of you have to learn by experience in what you're doing. There are some of our roles which are lateral entry, and so you can come in at a different stage. ultimately um it's about growing people through the system we only went

to sea in 1991 and therefore actually it's taken that time to get through the system the other thing is we've recently opened all uh so elements of our service to to females which we didn't do in the past um so 10 years ago, we opened a service to submarines, females to submarines. So we now have all of our services open to females. And again, it just takes some time to recruit some people, to keep the people and to train them to get to those levels. So we're going to have lots and lots of women

at rear admiral position, lots of female admirals? So I would hope we would have more than one. How many can you have at any time? Is there a set number? No, not on gender basis. No, no, I meant of admiral level. Yes, so the Navy has a set structure, although we also have roles

where we are employed at admiral in other services, in other budget holders. So we have people in UK Strategic Command, we have people in the support agency. And so the Navy has its own set within its own confines of about eight, I think we are at today. But more broadly, you can then apply for other joint appointments. You've got to have the women there to do it.

And if you look at the numbers, there's a government target, 30% of all new recruits into the armed forces as a whole will be women by 2030. The 15% target was missed in 2020. Why don't women want to join? So it's one of, that's obviously one of my jobs is to try and make the career appeal to more people. I think one of the things is not everybody knows what the armed forces do. And the Navy in particular is not necessarily in the headlines as much as the army would because we all used to wear the same uniform and the army is a bigger service. More people understand in the UK and abroad what the army does. The Navy is not necessarily in so much

as the front as the headlines I think the other thing is we need to explain more what we do so the job is not just being an engineer in the Royal Navy or just being a logistics person you are a sailor first you get to deploy with ships you get to travel the world you also get to work really hard but you get to do sports activities and I don't think we are good enough at selling the whole career package. If you think about a warship, you think about a captain of a warship rather. But equally, if you look at the retention, there is also a bit of an issue there, isn't there? So it's one thing to have this target to get them in. But are women staying? So in the Navy, actually, we have a similar through flow of our females. And I can only comment on the Navy.

Fair enough. But it is recognised that those are in particular branches. So if you are in the logistics branch or currently the engineering branch, you do a really good mix of operational deployments at sea, ash isn't conducive to life choices, whether that's raising a family, whether that's sharing caring duties, whether that's. make it more inclusive for everybody, which will, of course, improve the gender numbers, to allow people to come and do eight to 10 years in a career pathway, and then take some alternatives, which will keep them in the service. So you're going to try and change the way you can get promoted. So you don't only get promoted by going, I mean, I'm familiar with some military jargon, off ramps and on ramps, but you want to be able to change how you can get to the top, as it were. Because I was just gonna say, when you were appointed, you said there's been massive strides during your years in the service.

But one of the biggest challenges facing women in the Navy is that balance between a woman's life choices and her career. You said, I'm not married. I don't have a partner. I don't have children. So that's the next step to allow people to make life choices and manage their career. And of course, it also affects men who are serving, who have caring duties as well. Do you think enough has been done in that? So I think in the 25 years I've been in, a lot has changed and we've got a lot better. I think in the last 10 months since the Atherton report, we have accelerated a lot through what we've done in terms of the Wigston report, those types of things.

These are some of the reviews our listeners may remember. The Atherton refers to Sarah Atherton, the MP, who's been looking at this in a parliamentary report. Yes, in a parliamentary broad perspective. But also we've got things like the wraparound childcare, which we've brought in. We've brought in a different accommodation model, the future accommodation model, which helps people live where they want to live, where their support structure is, rather than making people move. Have we done enough? No. Is there more to do? Very definitely. But we are definitely on the right path and we are accelerating those that we can see that have a benefit. So we're using

a feedback system which says, does this work for you? Do the pilots work? How do we change and test and adjust that? It's also about culture though, isn't it? And some of, when I was looking through that review that you mentioned, some of the things that came up in that also don't make for easy reading. And I know this is the army, but the head of the army, Sir General Nick Carter, talks about a laddish culture being important in the forces necessary for winning on the battlefield. He later said those words were a mistake. But you talk about what the little people know about the armed forces. Then you want to get more women in. And then you hear, we need a laddish culture to kill and win.

And I'm very minded that we're talking while we have a war in Ukraine. Yes, so there is a definite culture change. And again, in my 25 years, the culture has hugely changed about all sorts of things, from healthy living to how people are seen as being good at delivering their job, not necessarily any of their other attributes. And what I'm keen on focusing on is intersectionality, which is a great word I learned in America about we are a sum of all our parts. And so we need to understand that that is the importance and you need to be comfortable and enough to bring as much or little of yourself to work as you want to. Do you need a laddish culture in the Navy? So in the Navy you need to be able to deploy and to deliver on

operations. Is that laddish? I don't think so but I think the culture previously was it was a laddish culture. I don't think so but you do need to be able to understand what it is you're going to do you can be yourself you just need to understand that at the end of the day within that context you have to go and operate in a in an operational scenario where you are on board a ship or a submarine or in a or in an air squadron which means that you will deploy into slightly different environments than other people will deploy in normally. But I don't believe it needs to be laddish.

You just need to be conscious of where it is you're going to. Is it laddish, though? Has it been laddish previously? Yes, I think so. And are some women OK with that? So I think some women are. I think it's all about you as an individual. I think the key for me is you need to be able to call it out when you're not happy with it.

And that's key from this report, isn't it? Because it found service women who were victims of bullying, harassment, discrimination, and then, of course, very serious sexual assault was also included, that were being denied justice. They complained of a woefully inadequate military complaints process. That must be surely also top of intray. It is top of my intray and it is on my list of things to get after.

And then we've already done a lot. So we've set up a defence serious crimes unit, which is going to help support, make sure we've got the right skills. Because, of course, when you've got three services who all have their own individual skills, it's much more effective if you pull some of those together to get those skills. We're also looking at the chain of command. And again, that's very much individual led.

But each we are working to work out how much how much is involved in that. But more importantly, how when the chain of command is not seen to be supporting the right structure, how we we go about making sure that that is those individuals are held to account for not doing that, to create that environment and that culture where people feel comfortable and confident enough to challenge and get better outcomes than they perhaps have done in the past. The culture, of course, is very important. There are also basics within that review, finding helmets didn't fit women, service women deliberately dehydrating themselves due to, as it was put, limited systems for female urination,

things that we have heard have been improved, but still not perhaps where they should be. Just finally, very minded of the fact that we have heard more than we have perhaps for a while about armed forces, especially because of Ukraine and people perhaps thinking about what's going on and how it may affect NATO countries and especially with that summit today. You know, 15% of the armed forces in Ukraine are women.

We've also heard men, and we now know men not being allowed to leave the country and women being allowed to do so. I'm very minded of a message we received from a listener, and I'm not asking you for a kind of a government position or a military position on this, but we did have a question. Should women have been conscripteded and what was your view on that as a top military woman? So you're right I can't comment from a government perspective because there is an incredible I should say incredible culture of women fighting volunteering and fighting but this idea that men couldn't leave and women could I just wonder what

your reaction has been sort of as a woman to that in your role. So I think as a woman and as someone who is aiming to attract my armed force to upwards of more than I am now, I would say that your best fighting force is one that is diverse and inclusive. The conscription element will always bring a political edge to it that perhaps people are not comfortable with. But I do know there are other countries who have taken that on. So Sweden, I know, recently has looked at conscription more largely. So I think it is, on the one hand, you say you want an inclusive force where everybody is able to contribute if they can. But I absolutely understand the political difficulty with that.

And so I think it should be about allowing people who want to, to get involved. Rear Admiral Jude Terry, thank you very much for talking to us. All the best with it. I hope you'll come back and tell us how it's going. A lot to do, it sounds. There's quite a lot to do, but thanks very much for having me on. There you go. The first woman to be an admiral in the Royal Navy's history. You're getting in touch with regards to how women have helped you or perhaps some of those special places in hell as well with that famous quote from Madeleine Albright,

who we learned has died but we're remembering today and you'll hear the voice of shortly from some of our archive and interviews. A message here is about, in my working life it is only women who have helped me and I want to pay tribute. Another message here, those saying it's only women who have hindered me or tried to make me feel small. That's from Catherine. And what makes you think they're capable of doing that was one sneering remark. The women at the top of my line of work did indeed break the glass ceiling and then they triple glazed it to keep other women out. So that's at odds with what we've just been hearing, certainly from our first female admiral.

But how about you? Do keep your messages coming in. A range of experiences, 84844. Now, when you do try to pin down the roles that the actor Ruth Wilson is best known for, it is a tough call. Alice Morgan in Luther, Alice and Bailey in The Affair, playing our own grandmother in the 2018 BBC drama Mrs Wilson,

and more recently, Marisa Coulter in His Dark Materials to name just a few. In Ruth Wilson's latest film True Things out on April 1st she plays Kate a single 30-something who has an intense very intense adrenaline-filled fling with a nameless man she meets at the benefits office in Ramsgate where she works. Here have a listen to this they meet for the first time while she interviews him. Can you confirm your marital status? Married or single? Single. Very. Oh, sorry. Computer's going. Ow! Ah, computer's gone. Erm... Right. OK, so it usually takes about three to five weeks for a claim to be processed.

And if you, you know, don't hear from us within that time, you can just contact us via phone or email. Do you have any other questions? What are you doing for lunch? Well, I usually just eat a sandwich in the kitchen. They don't give us very long. Sounds like some bloody prison. You want to go out?

Sit on a bench? Well, I will keep that in mind. Thank you. That's Tom Burke there playing the nameless bloke, as he's referred to only as the blonde, I should say. Ruth Wilson, good morning. Good morning. Hello. Thank you for joining us. I'm just loving that that sounds worse than prison to that man,

that character, who had just been in jail, I believe. Yes, exactly. He'd just got out of jail. You're a busy woman. I should also say you're on stage in a one woman play, The Human Voice, that's just opened in London's West End. But this particular film, it's very intense. It's based on a book by Deborah Ray Davies, which I believe you bought the rights to years ago when it came out. What appealed to you about the story? It was eight years ago that I bought the rights to this book, so quite a while now. But at the time, there weren't that many shows that were really subjective

through the female lens of an experience like this. This was like the onset of a relationship, the very first throes of an infatuation. And I didn't feel like there was much drama that sort of specialised in that or even saw it through that female lens that closely. And we've since had sort of I May Destroy You or Phoebe Waller-Bridge's Fleabag. But at that time, there weren't that sort of many roles like that. And I thought

it was really fascinating. It was a kind of very acute description of a woman at that stage of her life. And I thought it was really funny. She saw the world in a very kind of clear, honest, raw way. But I just thought there was something really interesting to explore in that about the inside of this woman's mind and why there's this feeling that overtakes the body, which is almost as the director calls it, it's almost like a Midsummer Night's Dream effect. You know, that this magic dust drops and you become in, you sort of, you become in love with a donkey and then the veil lifts and you realize, you know, it's just a donkey. So I thought that was a really interesting thing to explore in that we've all been there there's like it's like the relationship you look back on five years later and think why on earth was I involved in that and yet and yet when you're in it like you say it's it's everything it's completely all-consuming and it's it's almost it doesn't necessarily feel like this, but it is toxic. Exactly. And it overtakes your brain. You can't see clearly. You're blind to the realities of

what it really is. And what I thought was really interesting is it's also it's about her. I mean, he's called Blonde, but you don't find out much about him. He's really an object in the piece. And it's her projections onto what she wants from him or what she thinks he is and how she sort of imagines what he could be, that's incredibly powerful. And I thought that was a really fascinating thing to dig into and to explore. I love also that the phone is essentially a third character in this

because of how much plays out now on whether they're writing back, you know, those dot, dot, dots, and how much of your life can live by those. Yeah, I mean, it's amazing how the phone has become a sort of conduit to relationships and it becomes another figure in the relationship. And I think it builds tension. It's kind of excruciating waiting for a text.

The game playing that goes on in dating about when you should text back when you shouldn't it's extraordinary it takes up so much of your mind and your energy and I just it's so fascinating why that is the case um and why we do that why men and women do it's not just a gendered thing I think it's a woman at this story, but both parties play a part in that. You've also been drawn in your work to the relationships between those often men and women and how they play out. And you've spoken about marriage not being for you and that the idea of being with one person forever, you're not sure it's natural. Tell me about that. Was that influenced by, I did mention the fact

that there's been bigamy in your own family. I didn't know if that had left the impact. Yeah, probably. I mean, realising my father, my grandfather had, you know, four wives made me think maybe it's, you can't just have one. I watched that drama, by the way, not knowing it was your family member. And I thought it was an extraordinary thing. And then to find out it was actually your relation and you were playing your

grandma was also just extraordinary can I say that yeah no it's an amazing story to kind of unfold in our family and it only came out 20 years ago but I think there was it's just fascinating to me I don't I suppose I mean my parents are very happily married and have been for years and all my brothers are married and it's I don't judge people that do. I think it's an amazing thing to achieve, actually. And I see my parents and they're really happy in their 70s. I just, I suppose for me, unless I don't see the need for it, I don't feel a need to sort of attach to someone

and have a permanent attachment. And I don't understand the strong desire to do so. But that's me. I mean, I don't, people are different and people need different things. And I suppose also, of course, it reflects that women don't need to anymore. I mean, that's also the massive change.

And I was so struck the other day, we were talking about changing your name and how it was still the majority of those who are in, who are in heterosexual relationships, then get married, they do change their names, women change their names. And we were talking about it actually, after Lewis Hamilton said he would take his mother's name as his middle name, that was the reason. But that is still the norm. Yeah, it's, and it's interesting to me. I mean, I think, you know, I have my own flat. I'm economically independent. I have a career that I love.

Like I'm just in my, I don't feel I need a man or that thing to support me in those ways. So yeah, it's strange that still a social setup that we all kind of live by and we expect from our life and I think often expectations are where things fall down we expect too much from a relationship and from a man or from a partner and they can't supply all those things that we think we need. And I think, you know, initially, also, marriage was economic, economic, you know, for women, it's a way to survive. And these days, we don't need that so much. So then it becomes really just about love. And then you question, okay, can love

survive that length of time? So that's an interesting debate. It is, it is. And also, of course, you have spoken a little bit about this, there is a different tempo for women dating in their 30s because of the situation with if you may want to have children, and that clock ticking as well, which is it's a well worn path in terms of people having to think about that. But I know you also have thought about that and are trying to keep your your options open you've talked about egg freezing yeah I had my eggs frozen a few years ago and um it was a really easy process I did it in the US and I just thought actually as it's an option that's available it's's there. It's amazing that we have these options now as women.

And if I ever choose to have a child that I could go down that route, it's still really difficult, of course. And I think whether the success rate of that isn't necessarily very good. But I think it is extraordinary that we have these options available to us which means that we can continue a career or we we can go down a different path if we if we want to and we can delay potentially having kids uh into our 40s um if we want to and later um but there's other options if you really want I always feel like if you really want a child and it's unavailable to you to have naturally then there's adoption and there's all sorts of other options so to me I think that's an amazing uh privilege we have actually at the moment it's those choices I wanted to to keep with that for a moment because I read that you worked in with some

women in New Mexico who who really made you see about a different way of life again on that front I believe you're quite inspired by some of these women. Well, I think it was, they were women on a crew that I was working on in a film I did sort of 10, 15 years ago, 10 years ago. And I just think I was seeing what the world, my world offered, my industry offered. It was lots of women working in my industry and they were a range of women from in their 60s down to 70s, 60s, 40s,

a range of brilliant women, eccentric, wonderful, creative, imaginative, many of which were single and didn't have children. And I just hadn't really been around that many women like that before. So for me, I suddenly thought wow this is it's like a traveling circus I mean that's what my job is and I just I was in awe of these women I just found them really wonderful human beings that had their own autonomy uh were strong willed they were creative imaginative and it really I don't know I felt I belonged in that world actually as a lovely feeling I imagine in that world, actually. It's a lovely feeling, I imagine, for that moment in your travelling circus, which keeps changing.

Just because we've brought up almost like what's happening behind the scenes. I'm very mindful that we're having a discussion towards the end of the programme after a historian tweeted, urgent question, why in period dramas do women never have armpit or leg hair when surely they would have done? Ever come across any of those discussions? I don't know what your period drama repertoire is like, Ruth Wilson. Well, I didn't Jane Eyre, but luckily we didn't have to see much armpit hair or any other sort of hair. Yes, I don't.

Yes, I think obviously you would have full body hair back in those days, I'm sure. You probably would, yes. But yeah, that would require all the actors probably these days to sort of grow it out before they start acting. And I'm not sure how long that would take. But yes, I think. Not that long in many people's cases. But yes, it seems to be something that's still a bit of a squeamishness about when there's so much attention paid to the costume, what happens underneath the costume. I just wanted to come back to, of course, I mentioned you're on stage at the moment and you're alone, which I imagine you're in a box cut off from the audience. It sort of comes back to that independence uh element that we're talking about and and i was going to say with some people listening you may not like the institution of

marriage they may not be before that but they want companionship you know it's a lot of the time what what ends up happening uh you you seem like somebody i i'm not with you in person i should say we've not met before but it seems very comfortable in your own company does that extend to being on the stage? Well, no, it's much nicer to have someone with you on the stage, I'm realising. But this is such an extraordinary piece. It was written in the 1930s by Cocteau.

And talking of phones and relationships through phones, the whole thing is a conversation with an ex-lover over the course of an hour and so and a bit like true things they feel like companion pieces in a weird way the man is sort of absent he's not heard he's not seen he's not written on the page so this isn't just the woman speaking and having a one-sided conversation in a way. And what's amazing about this piece, he has put me, the directors, I'm in a box and I'm isolated from the audience. It's quite an unusual experience. It's quite voyeuristic for the audience.

They're observing this woman in a moment of crisis. But what's really interesting to me, and actually about both the film True Things and this, it's about sort of isolation. It's about loneliness. It's about the need to connect and the inability to connect because both those characters aren't really present. They're lost in their own mind. They're lost in their own obsessions and thoughts. And so it's a really interesting sort of exploration of both those things. I didn't realise actually how similar, weirdly, the two pieces are or what the themes they deal with are.

But yeah, to answer your question, it's nice. It's sort of interesting being on your own. It's sort of weirdly empowering and it's strange. I am isolated from the audience as well. So that's quite weird, actually, and unusual. Usually, you're connected to the audience. I feel even disconnected from them. Well, it's lovely to have you to have someone to talk to this morning, even if it is me, Ruth Wilson, and to hear what you have to say. We'll leave you to go back to those thoughts and get back into that box quite literally. But thank you for talking to us this morning. Thanks for having me. Ruth Wilson there. The Human Voice is at the Harold

Pinter Theatre in London until April 9th and True Things is in cinemas from April 1st. Right at the start of the programme, I was talking to the first female admiral in the Royal Navy's history. I have to say, many of you also getting in touch about that interview. Fascinating to see a bit of a theme emerging that people, women getting in touch, I should say, have been. There's also men have been getting in touch, but women have been getting in touch. So do you try to join the Navy? And one person saying here, Alex, I'm presuming a woman saying I can cope with the laddishness, hard work. What put me off was the shocking admin involved in the application process. If it had been better managed, it's likely I'd be part of the Royal Navy now. I

trained with the reserves. I loved every second. Sadly, my career as a teacher has taken over, and now I have no involvement. And another one here, which is anonymous, saying, I agree the Armed Forces is a great career for young women, but they really need to address the recruitment processes. This is somebody whose daughters have some issues on that front. I'll return to that message if I can, but along a similar line. But I also really wanted to read this from Megan, just listening to your interview with Rear Admiral Terry. I also joined the Royal Navy in 97, but didn't stay through the initial officer training. I'd like to congratulate her for blazing a trail through the Royal Navy to show what women can achieve. I can vouch that back in 97, I really didn't feel So there you go.

More messages coming in. I'll hope to return to them. But we were just talking about children there, the different options available. Well, what is the best way of looking after children who can no longer stay with their birth parents when a family, for whatever reason, breaks down? The Independent Review of Children's Social Care, which was commissioned by the government,

is due to make its recommendations about the future of the care system in England in the next couple of months. Woman's Hour understands that the review is set to recommend that there should be a renewed focus on alternatives to care, with a major focus on kinship care. Kinship care is when someone, maybe a grandparent, a friend, an aunt, uncle, sister, brother, takes in another family member's child, usually in a time of crisis when they can no longer look after them. In a report out today, the charity Kinship

is setting out its vision of what needs to change for kinship carers. Its chief executive, Dr Lucy Peake, joins me now, along with May Ram, who's a kinship carer. Five years ago, she took in her sister's three young children when her sister and then her sister's partner were unable to look after them. Good morning to you both and welcome. Lucy, I just thought I'd start with you and ask, what are you calling for for kinship carers that isn't there?

Morning, Emma. So many kinship carers are stepping in to do the right thing and keeping children out the care system. What they find is they are left high and dry without eligibility for support. So we are calling for some urgent changes. We want to see financial allowances which are on par with the National Fostering Minimum Allowance minimum allowance we want information advice for kinship carers right from the beginning legal advice about their options and then through their entire journey when they're looking after those children whose needs will change and we want practical and emotional support for the children and for the kinship carers the children that we're talking about are the same children as would have gone into the care system if their family and friends hadn't stepped in. But at the moment, there is no fairness in the system. They are denied the support that is there for other children.

So we want to correct that unfairness. We want to see more rights for our children and kinship carers. And then long term, we need to build a system that is right for kinship care families. In many cases, they have been tacked on to the end of fostering provision or adoption services. They have unique needs. And we want to work with the government and with local authorities to really make sure that we build a system that meets the unique needs and challenges of the families that have stepped you know, stepped into raised children. Well, indeed, I don't think many people will know a lot about kinship caring at all, if they know anything. And I've certainly learned a great deal since knowing that we were going to be talking and hearing about your recommendations.

Mehran, good morning. Welcome to the programme. Morning. I mentioned your circumstances and what happened. And is it right, you had a call on a Friday saying, if you don't want your sister's children to get split up and go into care, then you can act now, but you have to act now. Yeah, so I was at work on Friday evening, got a call around 4pm, and the local authority and my sister rang me and said, Mayram, the children are potentially going to go into the care system.

There's a call on Monday. If you want to come and save the children from going into the care system please come to court on Monday it was an overnight like decision and I was meant to be going work on Monday I had a holiday booked in two weeks so much change in such a short amount of time it was just crazy and you have your own children as well yeah I was a mum for two kids teenage children so within a couple of days I had become a parent to five children and they were younger your your sister's children yeah I had three under five and two in nappies it was tremendous like our shopping had gone for double in price and there was no financial support and I wasn't

getting the money from work anymore because I had to take leave I wasn't entitled to benefits I was just using my savings and you then in the same home as well and and I understand that that was a challenge in terms of sleeping arrangements I slept with my niece on the sofa for around six months before we could get a triple bunk for them. And like, yeah, just having no space in your own home, losing your space, losing, not having the finances that you need, not having the support that you need was very hard going. And it was a lot of sacrifice for me and my children, but I wouldn't change it because I love my niece and my nephews.

Well, that's what's underpinning all of this, isn't it? Yeah. The love that you have for thesepinning all of this, isn't it? Yeah. The love that you have for these children, I think anyone would do it. They would just literally give up everything for these kids to just make sure they don't go into the care system and get lost because you love them. And I think that's what pulls your strings and your heart and that's why they know that they can get you this way. It's a cheaper alternative for kinship carers

and, yeah, I didn't know at the time how much I had to go through. And we're still campaigning and fighting to get what we need to get. To have some of those changes. And their relationship with you, I mean, what do they call you? How do they kind of view your relationship after this? My niece and nephew, like, they loved me. They knew that I was auntie at the beginning. And I remember I was

sitting around the dinner table with my niece and my nephews and my nephew said mum and it was a such a surreal moment I actually cried and I was like oh my god he's actually calling me mum now and I was like oh that's my little boy and when I spoke to the therapist they said that they finally felt at home and that's why they started calling me mum. I mean it's an amazing thing that you have done also with your children. They're just amazing. My two oldest have sacrificed and helped me and supported me and we were like a family like I had teenagers in the house anyone that knows that teenagers just go into their room but don't have a meal with you like on the dinner table and stuff. When these kids came to get came to live us, it kind of completed our family

and we started having meals together and my teenagers supported me so much and it just binded us together even more. And are you able to say, I mean, I'm very aware of limitations, but the relationships still with your sister and her partner, is there something there? The children have face time with my sister um my sister and my relationship is it's challenging but it's really really like i love my little sister and she loves me it's just the circumstance i just think there

should be a little bit more support in regards to that yeah because it's not just about the financial it's about the emotional support that you have to try and find somehow. The other thing, the key thing of when I took my niece and nephews on, we had to have some family therapy. And my family is a family of six. But when I went to the family therapy, I was only allowed to take my sister's children. So it kind of secluded us as well. So it's like, how do you expect us to move on as a family

if we're not getting the right support? And there's like a separation between my children and my children my kinship children so were you able to keep working because so much happening at home I was off of work probably for like a couple years I had to take a career break um no financial support whatsoever for a good six to seven months wasn't entitled to benefits wasn't getting maternity pay or adoption pay shall I say so I just used my savings for a good six to seven months, wasn't entitled to benefits, wasn't getting maternity pay or adoption pay, shall I say. So I just used my savings for a good six months and then it took ages for everything to be rectified. Ended up in debt, to be honest with you, at the beginning

and then managed to sort it out. Back at work now, though. Are you? Yeah. Well done, you. Thank you. On every level. Thank you for talking to us, Mayrem.

Lucy, listening to that, you will have heard stories like and and very powerful to hear what has happened with mayrem and and important to see and hear that it's a positive as well that there is a positive to her family by doing this because as we've just when we started this discussion talking about that review of social care commissioned by the government we understand that there is going to be a recommendation to have a renewed focus on kinship care. And do you want more people to hear about it in this respect? Awareness really matters. I mean, it matters in policy terms, it matters in terms of services, because people like Mayrim will go to the housing office or to a GP surgery or the school and find that nobody understands what kinship care is. So awareness

matters there. But what's really critical for us is that the care review have recognised the value of kinship carers. So people like Mayrim who have kept three children out of the care system. It's really hard to find foster carers who would take three children, but Mayerum did that overnight, and her own children have wrapped themselves around in terms of supporting those children. And the care reviews also recognise that there is a lack of support. So I think what we've got is a huge opportunity here,

which is being recognised, to keep more children within their family if their parents can't care for them. What chances are, and I'm mindful we're speaking after the Chancellor's Spring Statement, there has been criticism of not enough being done about cost of living in families right now. What do you think the chances are of the government parting with some money for this? So there is a challenge for us. What we're saying is actually there's an opportunity to save money for the public purse. So this is investing in kinship care makes sense.

It's better for children's outcomes. It's better because we're keeping them in their families. And it's also better for the public purse. So that's the way to think about it, not extra money. If fewer children are in care, then we can reinvest some of that money in kinship care, which is better for children's outcomes. Well, when that review is published, I do hope to talk to a minister and put some of that to them. Thank you very much, Dr. Lucy Peake. They're the chief executive of the charity Kinship.

And big thanks to Mayrem as well, talking about what's been going on in her family. Now, the Taliban yesterday announced that girls would not be allowed to attend secondary school, causing heartbreak amongst those who had been looking forward to returning to the classroom. Many girls were seen crying outside schools yesterday in Afghanistan when they heard the news. The Taliban reversed its decision, saying a ruling is still to be made on the uniforms that girls must wear. Since the Taliban took power in August 2021 last year, only girls' primary schools along with all boys' schools have remained open in most of Afghanistan, while two students, 16-year-old Fereshteh and her sister, 18-year-old Farinaz, gave their reaction to the news on the Today programme earlier this

morning. When yesterday I went to school, I was so happy that for the first day after 186 days we will go to our school, we will study, we will start our lessons. After one hour they informed us that you have to go back to your homes. We were so disappointed that no one cares and no one pays attention to us because nowadays girls are like a weapon, like a weapon that Taliban use against the world. So we were so unhappy, so many girls were crying. When we heard this news, believe me, it is still like a nightmare for me to believe that we came back 20 years.

Actually, the situation is so hard for women and girls. No hope to settle, no hope to continue, no hope to fight for our dreams. But actually we want from the world to not recognise Taliban as an official government. Recognising them actually is sacrificing the people of Afghanistan, especially women and girls. Nobel Peace Prize laureate Malala Yousafzai has also spoken to the BBC about how devastating this is for Afghan girls. You'll remember she was shot in the head by a Taliban gunman back in 2012 as she rode home on a bus after taking an exam in Pakistan's Swat Valley. She says that the Taliban will continue to make excuses to prevent girls from learning beyond primary school. It is such a devastating day for them, for us, because the Taliban made a promise

that they will allow girls to go to school. And most of us were sceptic about it because we had heard these things previously as well. We know that the Taliban will continue to make excuses to prevent girls from learning. We are not unfamiliar with that. We're not new to this. We have heard it in the past. We heard it back in 1996. We heard it in Swat Valley as well. And we hear it even today in 2022 that they will prevent girls from their education. They will use the excuse of uniform, walking to school, separation and segregated classrooms and female teachers. These excuses are nothing new that we are hearing. And I think the Afghanistan that the Taliban are envisioning is the one where girls do not receive their education, where they never go higher than the primary schools. And that is an Afghanistan where we do not have educated women, where half of the population are held back.

And I don't think that Afghanistan will see peace and progress that it deserves. So it is heartbreaking. Malala Yousafzai, we'll of course keep you up to date on the latest on that story as the fight continues for Afghan girls to be educated, certainly those older girls who are hoping to go back into school yesterday. Now, there is a special place in hell for women who don't help each other. Those are the famous words of Madeleine Albright. She said them in 2016 when she was supporting Hillary Clinton, who was then running to be president. And Madeleine Albright was the first female Secretary of State in US history, and she's died aged 84. She was best known for working with President Bill Clinton, particularly in Kosovo

and also on the Middle East peace process. Liz Truss, the UK's Foreign Secretary, who was on Women's Hour with me last week, tweeted that the world needs to stand by Albright's values more than ever. Well, we've gone back into the Women's Hour archive to find a clip so you can hear from her herself of Madeleine Albright from May 2006 when she was asked if she missed the role of US Secretary of State. I have to admit that I miss being Secretary of State and I have often said that people who say they're glad to leave these big jobs are lying. But you do know from the very beginning that once you start a job like that, that it ends. And so I tried to make the best of it.

I've said, you know, I found my voice. I'm not about to lose it. And so I spend a great deal of time in politics, and I write, and I teach, and I have a business. And so I have a lot to do. And I try very hard not to be, you know, I say that people that have never had high-level government jobs don't know how hard they are. And people who have left them have forgotten. So there's a fine line between being critical without understanding and yet playing a role of not losing my voice. You paved the way for a woman to become Secretary of State. How much easier do you suppose it is for Condoleezza Rice now you have done it? I think actually a lot, because my own children said this.

They said, you know, Mom, nobody questioned whether she could be national security advisor or secretary of state. You proved you could do it. And I think that that is true, that there may be questions about things that she's doing but not whether she is capable of doing the job. And I think we're seeing more and more women in leadership roles. I'm hoping very much that there'll be a rub off of the fact that there are women chancellors and heads of state that that will rub off on the United States. Well, I also had the opportunity to interview her in April 2020 on my programme on Five Live, and that's also available on BBC Sounds if you want to hear how she had felt about the pandemic

and also how women leaders were faring. But it's important to remember Madeleine Albright today and many of you getting in touch to help us do that, especially about women helping each other. Lovely message here. A wonderful woman in my life travels four hours from Sheffield to help me with my first child, who's almost two, born at the start of the pandemic. She does this despite being a full-time carer. Because of her, I'm getting to listen to you live for the first time. Brilliant. I'm delighted. I'm delighted. And I'm so grateful for her. There are, however, women that live 20 minutes away from me who haven't helped or do so with, let's say, reluctance and with heavy guilt. I'll say no more on this other than when women do

stand side by side, we are awesome. And I'm teaching my daughter to be that type of woman. Amen to that. Only time just to tell you what I was mentioning earlier with the actor Ruth Wilson, about the concern from one historian around why there is no body hair in period dramas. This is a question posed by the historian Dr. Marissa C. Rhodes. She's a postdoctoral fellow at Arizona State University, also co-host of a podcast called Dick, which looks at the past through a feminist lens. And I'm very mindful of this because we've got Bridgerton returning to our screens tomorrow. Good morning, Marissa. Good morning, Emma. Where's the body hair?

I don't know. I'm not sure. You know, and after tweeting that, now I know that it's not only me that had that question on my mind. I tweeted, you know, where's the body hair? And a bunch of people said, I've always wondered that, you know. So it wasn't just me. It's not just historians. It's also, I think, ordinary folks, too, who are thinking, wait a minute, wouldn't these women have leg hair and armpit hair? Julie messaged in to say hair has been removed since Egyptian times. Various chemicals and tweezering, as she puts it.

Read the Marquis de Sade. Yeah, no, that's totally true. Hair has been removed, especially for ritualistic purposes and as well for aesthetic reasons, usually by particularly fancy people, upper class people. But for most of history, in most times, and in most places, ordinary people would have had underarm hair and leg hair, ordinary women would have had underarm hair and leg hair, in most times and places. Yes. And I think that's what you're getting to here, isn't it? That we spend a lot of time, or rather the people making these programs spend a lot of time on the accuracy of lots of different things. They are called out, aren't they?

If there's, I don't know, a random remote control in the background or something. Right, Reddit goes wild. But why not this? Why do you think it matters, though? You know, I've been thinking about this. And I think the easy answer is that, you know, our contemporary aesthetic is hairless, you know, for the most part, underarms and legs for women. Right. And so I think a lot of people very cynically, especially on Twitter, too, have said that it's because they want ratings and they think that underarm hair or leg hair will will turn people off. I mean, that's an option. But I've actually, you know, been thinking more about this. And I really think that that, that period appropriate body hair wouldn't really

turn people off. I feel like most people, I don't think we give viewers enough credit. And I think most people would say, Oh, you know, I never thought of that. I suppose women wouldn't have removed their underarm hair, whatever. I think most people, I don't think it would turn people off too much. But I do think that there's an element now, I think nowadays that there's some celebrities who are kind of experimenting with having underarm hair and kind of showing it in public. I think that there's an element of it being sort of, it's transgressive and it's sort of feminist and almost like a power move. And so I wonder sometimes if producers just kind of want to want to sidestep that whole thing entirely, or they think it won't that that sort of, you know, power move, feminist sort of could be off.

Yeah. For the particular character. Have you seen any TV or film showing a true representation? So I've seen it only on The Great, which is by Hulu, about Catherine the Great. But only I think one of the women on there had some very sort of chaste armpit hair. And then 1883, which I haven't seen, but I think it's about a sort of pioneer women. And the lead character on there has has plenty of armpit hair. So both sort of American shows, I think. I can't find anywhere else. Well, yes. And also just about, you know, how people's teeth would have looked and also body shape in different in different times. Is that accurate, would you say, as a historian? No, for the most part no and i have

found that um uh i can remember watching the movie uh joan of arc and the the english had horrible terrible teeth and then the french had beautiful white pearly teeth and this is you know and i was like wait and i asked my dad why is that and he said oh they're just trying to make the english look extra bad and extra villainous, you know. So I think it's sometimes used for like cinematic purposes. But I think for the most part, we're not getting done a really good job of portraying sort of how, you know, how dirty folks would have gotten at these sort of menial jobs that they that they performed. No one ever looks clean in there except the, you know, the king and the queen, basically. Of course. And that might not even be that accurate. I mean, and I think if you're putting it through the lens of today, but you're making everything else accurate, it probably is a fair question to have in your mind as you watch these sorts of things. Does we're in the ninth century, you know, and I sort of get, you know, enveloped in that sort of trance.

And then as soon as there's nobody here, I think, oh, man, this person is just a regular, this person is just a contemporary person. It sort of breaks the spell, I think. Well, I think Ruth was saying it would take quite a long time to grow some of the hair required. But I mean, personal experience, I don't think it would. Maybe that's overshared. Not for me. Right. Well, happy we shared that. Dr. Marissa Seabroads, thank you very much for talking to us.

And I just wanted to say, we've got the most lovely and moving message from Sarah Kendall I wanted to end today's programme with about women supporting women. She says, in 2013, I was living a happy, normal life in southwest London, married with two young children. And on the 8th of February, all that changed. I was at my children's school when I received a phone call from my next door neighbour who said, Sarah, Sarah, there are two policemen knocking at your door. And when the police came to school, they told me my husband had been knocked off his bike

and was in an induced coma and on life support, having sustained a serious brain injury. From that moment, the women around me rallied into action. The following day, a rota was organised by two friends and every day for three months a home-cooked meal was delivered to our doorstep every day by a parent from school the support love and understanding that these women and sometimes men too showed our family was overwhelming and i will never forget how incredible they were and still are neither will we sarah thank you so much for that message that's all for today's woman's hour thank you so much for that message. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.