Woman's Hour - Actor Samantha Womack, The Lionesses win, Dame Carolyn Fairbairn, Dear Daughter podcast, Jane Roe's daughter, The Home Edit

Episode Date: July 30, 2022

The actor Samantha Womack on her new role as the White Witch in The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe.As the Lionesses reach the final of the Euros on Sunday let's not forget that the FA, the Football Assocation, banned the women's game for fifty years. Jacqui Oatley, the first female Match of the Day commentator, reflects on the women's game.Women with learning disabilities die on average 26 years younger than the general population. In her first interview since taking up the role of chair of trustees at the learning disability charity Mencap, Dame Carolyn Fairbairn tells Emma about why the life, and death, of her sister Diana Fairbairn, who had learning disabilities and cerebral palsy, has inspired her new campaigning role to improve support for people with learning disabilities.Namulanta Kombo on her award winning podcast 'Dear Daughter', which started with her idea of writing letters to her young daughter with advice for life.Norma McCorvey is the real person behind the Roe vs Wade court case of 1972. Her eldest daughter Melissa Mills discusses what her mum would have made of the court case she was so central to being overturned.Friends and business partners Clea Shearer and Joanna Teplin have become stars of pandemic feel-good TV with their Netflix show Get Organised with The Home Edit. They go into someone’s home and transform a cluttered space into something beautiful and functional. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. On the programme today, the daughter of Norma McCorvey, also known as Jane Roe, of the Roe v Wade abortion ruling. A new report shows that women with learning disabilities have a life expectancy that is 26 years less than women in the general population.

We take a trip to Narnia with actor Samantha Womack talking about her latest role in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Then we speak to the queens of Get Organised with the home edit on Netflix, Clea Shearer and Joanna Telpin, who'll help us all declutter our spaces. And a brilliant podcast called Dear Daughter that's just won Podcast of the Year, where people write letters to their daughters giving them advice, everything from the sublime, the serious and the wonderfully ridiculous.

So make yourself a cuppa or something stronger and sit back and enjoy the next hour. Now, England are through to the Euros final tomorrow at Wembley, where they'll play Germany, as if you didn't know, after their semi-final 4-0 win against Sweden. Cannot wait. But let's never forget that the FA, the Football Association, banned the women's game for 50 years. The morning after the semi-final victory, Emma reflected on the women's game with the first female match of the day commentator in 2007, the trailblazing brilliant Jackie Oatley. Primarily it's a day to celebrate what this group of players have achieved but it's not just about this group of players, it's about the team

behind the team and that is the support staff. But it's also about, I think we have to give credit to the FA for what they've done. So many people there deserve credit for the exponential rise in the women's game in this country, because it's easy to point the finger at the blokes in suits way back in the day who banned women's football in 1921 for 50 years.

And yes, we do have to point the finger. We do have to remember that. But it's not a case about being bitter about it. It's a case about saying, OK, so in 1971, 1771, the ban was lifted and women started right from scratch. And of course, while the men were winning the World Cup in 1966, women still had another five-year ban to serve before they were allowed to even contemplate kicking a ball on FA-affiliated pitches. But I think we talk about that so much. And whilst it's important to have that at the back of our mind as an explanation for why the development has happened rather later in the day than in the men's game, I think we have to look at how far we've come and to look at the achievements of these players and the people behind them, the likes of Kelly Simmons at the FA, Kate Cossington, who's doing a great job on the technical side, Rachel Pavlo, anyone who knows about women's football in this country in terms

of what the FA have done, have known how much she's done in terms of grassroots and diversifying the game as well. There are so many people who deserve credit. And I was just looking at an FA document, and I promise you I'm not here as an FA spokesman, but looking at their strategy in terms of the legacy of this tournament. And that's why it's so fantastic that the women are in the final at Wembley on Sunday, because really all those eyeballs

will be on that game. And hopefully then the legacy that the FA wants, that we all want, everybody, not just English people, but everybody wants going forwards after this tournament to make sure that's in place. And to my mind, that involves things such as bums on seats and higher attendances at league games. I mean, it's a business as well at the end of the day. You know, the more popular it gets, the greater the financial support,

the sponsorship, all of those side of things as well. So it's a day to pay tribute, you would say, to the teams behind those that you see. It is. It's a day to celebrate, frankly, be happy. I mean, there's so much negativity going on in the world. How are you feeling last night? Oh, well, I was in two minds because I had to give up two tickets to the game because I couldn't go due to child care reasons of all of all matters and with my husband working but I looked on the positive side and I watched very closely with my little girl in the lounge and we went absolutely nuts very quietly because her little brother was sleeping and it was a really special night and I was just

so happy as somebody who's followed the game so closely over a couple of decades and as one of those women of the generation who wasn't allowed to play, there was no negativity. It was purely just joy and happiness that, do you know what? This group of players are so likeable. And that's just a minor thing, but they are so relatable. They're so likeable. There are players in that squad such as Jill Scott,

who used to have to work know work full-time and probably paid subs as well and they are players that girls such as mine but little boys grown men everyone can look at and frankly just enjoy this type of football they're playing. A message here that I think you'll like Jackie which says my 84 year old mother who never watches football let alone sports last week she was literally trying to get rid of some guests to watch the England-Spain match. I couldn't believe it. She's really got into it. And she watched again last night. What a match. That's the thing, isn't it? You know, nevermind men who've never watched women's football. Again, it's drawing in women of all ages. Absolutely. And during the match, I was receiving texts from the sort of people that you converse

with about different things. You know, my mum's friends and my old friends from growing up who I literally never talked to about football really ever because that's not what they're into and they're texting me out the blue it's it's a kind of fever pitch moment have you ever read that famous book by Nick Hornby about how people are always thinking about you at a certain moment when your team's doing well and in this case it's the England women And they were texting saying how they got so into this tournament. And it's messages such as those that make my heart sing because it's not just about those who are already into football or women's football.

It's about attracting whole new audiences. And for me, it's one of the many people who've been fighting over the years for people just to see football as football, not just women's football. Can women play? and all the goalkeepers and all the nonsense that we've heard and the boring, boring stuff over the years. And people comparing the two, women's football and men's football,

and is it as good and what do they need to do? And it's just so dull, that conversation. I think we just need to enjoy what we're watching, seeing players who are given the opportunity to be as good as they can be through excellent coaching, through opportunities, through medical care, through support, through sports science, all the things men have had over the years. Jackie Oatley talking to Emma there. Barbara tweeted after the semi-final match.

She says, Oh M goodness, I was so excited watching the match and wanted to share my delight with a female friend. I knew of two who'd been watching. One being my 100-year-old mum. She was loving it. She hadn't quite seen the details of the fantastic nutmeg back pass goal due to her

eyesight, but she was still loving it. She's always been a huge fan of sports. Now we look forward to the final. And my five-year-old granddaughter just wants to sing along to Sweet Caroline with the team on iPlayer. Go the lionesses. Now, a new report shows that women with learning disabilities have a life expectancy that's 26 years less than women in the general population. That shocking figure is part of an annual report investigating premature and avoidable deaths amongst people with learning disabilities.

10% of the general population die before they're 65. This rises to 60% for people with learning disabilities. Half are deemed to be avoidable compared to a quarter of the general population. Mencap has a new chair of trustees, Dame Carolyn Fairburn, who is on a personal mission, inspired by her sister Diana, who died at the end of last year. The businesswoman and former director general of the CBI started her role at the charity this week,

and Emma began by asking about her sister. She was somebody who absolutely lit up a room when she came in. She had profound learning disabilities. She couldn't speak. She was in a wheelchair, really profoundly disabled from birth. But she had a smile that lit up a room. She absolutely loved life. Everyone who knew her adored her.

She smiled all the time. She went swimming every week. She wanted to join everything in. I think there were four of us, four children in our family. And she was the most extrovert by far. And actually during COVID, Emma, she loved being with the family. My mother couldn't visit her, but she used to read her murder mysteries down the phone. And we'd hear her laughing at the other end. She was an extraordinary vivacious person who loved life. And a big part of your family,

the fact she was living away from the family still, but still a big part. Oh, we were incredibly fortunate that she was able to live in a wonderful residential home just near our family home. And she used to come every week to our house. She had a wonderful carer called Bridget who was with her for 15 years.

She was a huge part of our lives. She died at the end of last year in what you have described as a violent death on her own. What are you able to say about what happened? It was a devastating tragedy. She went in hospital in the middle of October with what turned out to be a gallbladder infection from which she recovered. She caught Covid in hospital. That was not connected with her death. She recovered from that as well, Emma. But then she was going to be discharged in time for Christmas and we were getting ready for that. We were incredibly excited the week before Christmas. She had to have a minor

operation just before she came home to help her with her feeding, but we weren't anticipating any problems. But on the Tuesday before Christmas, there was a minor issue with a spike in her temperature, but again, we weren't worried. But on the evening before she was supposed to come home, we got a call to say she had died. And what we discovered, unfortunately, through the post-mortem, is that she had died of asphyxia on her own in a side room of the hospital. She had choked on the contents of her stomach entirely on her own, having been untreated for something that was identified earlier in the day. And I'm afraid that what it has left us feeling as a family is that she was basically neglected during those last days of her life and the fact that she died on her own in such a dreadful way

I'm afraid absolutely haunts us and we do feel that her death was avoidable. We have a statement from the hospital, not naming the hospital if I may share this, it just says that her death was avoidable. We have a statement from the hospital, not naming the hospital. If I may share this, it just says, we continue to send our deepest sympathies to Dame Carolyn Fairburn and her family at this difficult time. As well as sending our sympathies,

we'd like to thank her for raising her concerns about the care of her late sister, Diana, that she received. We take all concerns raised about the patient care provided at our trust very seriously and investigate all issues raised to us. Following Dame Carolyn's complaint to the trust, we conducted a comprehensive review of Diana Fairbairn's care whilst with us. We're confident the review did not find any significant concerns with the care provided to Diana and the details of the findings were included within our letter to Dame Carolyn.

We would welcome the opportunity to meet with you to discuss the conclusion of our review and provide any further assistance in relation to this complaint. I know that you as a family will also be processing that, but you'll also be processing the grief, the loss. There's a lot there. But you have chosen to take this particular role at this time in your life. You're a woman who's been incredibly busy. I think I've interviewed you in at least three different guises. I know you actually gave up one of your other commercial

roles to take this on. Why does this matter so much to you? It matters so much because what I have realised, what we as a family have realised, is that the tragedy that happened to us and to Diana is happening almost on a daily basis in our hospitals. And I think that is what the tragedy that happened to us and to Diana is happening almost on a daily basis in our hospitals. And I think that is what the leader numbers show, that there are problems in our hospitals around unconscious bias, around lack of understanding of the needs of people with learning disabilities coming into hospitals. And I really felt when I discovered the tragedy in our own lives,

that I wanted to try and prevent it happening to other families. And that these things are preventable. There are some very, very concrete issues here around the use of do-not-resuscitate orders. My sister had a do-not- resuscitate order placed on her the day she arrived in hospital, despite not having our consent for that. And I was very surprised about that. She was placed in a room on her own because she made noise, despite the fact that she couldn't communicate. She could not press the red button and say, I'm in pain, I need help. And she was

put on a three hourly observation round. So these were issues that we, I need help. And she was put on a three-hourly observation round. So these were issues that we felt very keenly. And I feel that we can really make a difference to them. And when I began to do my research and find out who are the organisations that are really campaigning to overcome some of these inequalities, I came across Mencap again and again and again. And they produced a report actually exactly 10 years ago called Death by Indifference.

And I read it when very shortly after my sister's death. And I thought this is happening to so many families. And we are not solving this and we are not being fair to some of our most vulnerable people in our society. So when the opportunity came to take this role at Mencap, I thought this is absolutely what I want to do. It's what I commit myself to do. And as you said, this is my first week and I'm delighted to be here and commit myself to this. I mean, you mentioned a few areas there, of course, in the intervening 10 years, certain things have changed. The government have accepted the Care Quality Commission's suggestions about, for instance, do not resuscitate. There's now an oversight body to review how they are used.

There's also in terms of, I know you're also passionate about staff training. And there's the Oliver McGowan mandatory training is now laid down in law, also happening. You could argue it's not happening fast enough or how it should be happening. I mean, your first week in the job. So there's a lot to look at what's said is going to be done and seeing how it's actually implemented. But I mean, is it the first time you've taken a role based in quite such a personal reason, rooted in that way? I wonder how that is for you. So it is. I mean, I was fortunate enough to be a trustee of Marie Curie. There has been cancer in my family. So that meant something a lot to me as well. But nothing

quite like this. I do think it is a measure of our society, how we treat the most vulnerable people. And I have an awful feeling that the pressures on the NHS and the challenges we're facing, there is some research showing that actually the use of do not resuscitate is increasing. The use of clinical frailty scales to be applied to people with learning disability, that is growing, despite advice from NICE against that. So I just have a sense that unless we get really concerted action here, bringing together all the people who can make a difference, you know, the health professionals, organisations like Mencap, people with learning disabilities themselves, because they can change perception. I am so struck by the fact that we all have unconscious bias, that we don't look

beyond the disability, we see the disability first and foremost and and actually perhaps our first emotion is pity rather than this person actually loves life and has a wonderful quality of life as was the case with my sister and so it's deep-rooted and there has been progress Emma and I and I think it is wonderful to see that but there is so much more to do and and so it is the first time I've taken on something which I feel quite as passionate about on personal grounds. But I want to use what I have learned, because it's been so personal, to try and bring people together to make change for so many other families. How do you want to remember Diana? How should we remember her?

I was actually in touch with Bridget this morning. Her carers said that they miss her laugh, they miss her joyful approach to life, they miss her spirit. And I will always remember her like that. She always wanted to be part of things. She was just a wonderful character. Her life was cut a little short, but it was a wonderful life nonetheless. And we miss her every day. Dame Carolyn Fairburn talking to Emma. And if

you'd like to get in touch with us about anything you hear on the show, then please do send us an email. Go to our website or contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, if you were to write a letter to your daughter or any younger woman in your life, what would you write? It's a question my next guest posed to women all over the world. The letters she received were made into a podcast, Dear Daughter, which has just won Podcast of the Year at the British Podcast Awards. Namolanta Kombo is the presenter.

She had the idea and entered it in for a competition with the BBC World Service. She says she wanted to make a podcast as a handbook for life for her five-year-old daughter, Coco. I spoke to Namulanta from Nairobi in Kenya about the origins of the podcast. I became a mum and then I just wanted to give her something in terms of advice from myself and all the people that we love, friends and family. So I wanted I asked people to write letters to my own daughter. And I thought I'd publish it and make it into a book and give it to her that she can look through and never feel alone. And then a friend of mine told me about the BBC International Podcast Competition.

And I decided to turn it into a podcast. And it's worked out because here we are into a podcast and it's worked out because here we are. I mean it's worked out brilliantly why do you think it's captured people's imaginations so much? I think everyone wants to be heard and everyone has a story in them everyone wants the best for the person that they love so I think it's a combination of all three so just wanting to share your story and having a story and wanting someone else, you know, someone that you love to hear that story and maybe help them. And I think what's really nice is a lot of people that have come on to the podcast also want their story to be

shared with people they don't even know. So it's my daughter Coco and somebody in Canada wants to tell her something. And I find that really beautiful because I don't know who that person is. They don't know who my child is, but they still want to share something that they think can help. So I found that quite beautiful. And also as a listener, there's so much in it that's relatable, particularly this next clip, especially for an Indian woman like me. You speak to women from across the world. And one of the letters is from Emma, a woman in the UK. And it's about eyebrows. Let's listen to a clip. Dear daughter, appreciate and love your thick, dark, wild eyebrows,

even if it goes against current beauty trends. Don't shave your eyebrows, don't wax them or bleach them blonde, even if everyone else has their eyes canopied by two thin black lines. When I was 13 in the early noughties, I became obsessed with my eyebrows. It was very popular to have skinny eyebrows that were harsh and angular. I was blessed with a pair of thick, dark statement brows viewed as rather grotesque at school. I'd often hear slugs shouted across the corridor between classes or have you ever heard of tweezers? Bellowed across the playground. It's so relatable for those of us who lived through the 90s and the thin eyebrow phrase. Why did Emma want to share that with her daughter?

So Emma doesn't have a daughter yet, but she wanted, and that's the beautiful thing that I'm saying, that she doesn't even have a child yet but she knows that there's girls um and boys going through changes in their body and not accepting who they are because she's talking about herself being a teenager and not being happy with the way she looked and that's something it doesn't matter what country you're in that's something that's happening with kids everywhere and adults um so she really wanted to just let that next child know, let that next person know that you're beautiful, your body's beautiful. You might not see it now, but you are beautiful just as you are. And she also touches on bullying, which again is something that's, it's universal and there's so many kids going through it. So as the humour behind the story is there, I love that it was quite humorous, but it touched on really important parts

that affect people all around the world. And you do, I mean, you talk to, as I said, women from around the world and you do touch on subjects that are fun and frivolous, but also really serious issues that impact women's lives. And one conversation that really stayed with me was with your friend Elle in Zimbabwe talking about marriage and she didn't have a daughter either. So Elle was the first letter I ever got so I got it from her as a friend she didn't write

in for the purpose of the of the show because I didn't have a show yet I just wanted to say something to my daughter and she wrote this really beautiful letter. If anyone listens to it, I mean, it's just so well thought through. And she sent it to me. And it was part of the submission that I made for the competition. So I believe that, you know, she helped me win. But, you know, being an African woman and having that stance, and, you know, because in Africa, it's getting married is a milestone. Having children is a milestone. So for somebody to say, I don't know whether I want that right now, and just allowing herself to make that decision and be happy with that decision for now. She doesn't know what's going to happen in the future.

But I thought it was such an important conversation to have in context of where we live. And it was something really I wanted someone to say to my own child. I'm married. I do have children. And that was my choice. But if my daughter chooses not to, then I have to figure out how to support her if that's what she wants to do. Why do you think writing letters is such a good way to express our thoughts and feelings? Why do you think this is working so well? I think it's cathartic. I think putting pen to paper and putting your feelings or your thoughts or your history, whatever it is, putting it down to paper, you don't have to think about the right way to say something or the connotation. It's very honest. It's a very honest way to express yourself. You feel like you're talking to someone, but you're

not. It's just you. But you do feel like you're able to get out whatever you're feeling, whatever you're thinking. I've talked to so many people who have wrote letters. And even as they're having the conversations on the podcast, they're still discovering things about themselves. a very honest first reaction and then talking about it later on has made them realize even more so I just think the letter the writing down is just a it's a very pure expression of how you're feeling and then you can think about what you've put down later so just just put it down it's a really good exercise actually and everyone out there listening should should give it a go in fact we've been asking our listeners to give us the advice some of the advice they would give to their own daughters and they've been getting in touch in fact mike says he's a father who has a daughter and says he says find a partner in life that makes you laugh it's really important isn't it did you speak to many fathers and what about sons so we spoke to one one dad and he's dutch based out in the u.s and he's uh he's on he's on instagram and he um

has does self-defense clips for women and we found him because he had on he had put a whole set of of nails or false nails on just so women can know how to get themselves out of a jam if they have a long set of nails so i just found the empathy in that and the thoughtfulness in terms of pushing yourself into a woman's shoes and thinking about all the impediments she might have when she's trying to get her, you know, herself out of a jam was really sweet. And you spoke to your own mother.

How was that? I did. That was fantastic. Do you know what? Like you think you know someone until you sit down and completely focus on them for an hour. And I discovered so much in an hour.

And I've known my mom, I'm 38 now. I've known my mom all my life. And there's things I discovered in that hour. And it's really important if you do have the opportunity to speak to your parents, if your parents are still there, because so much of what they went through has had an impact on your own life and made you who you are. So there was things I discovered just chatting to her

about my own self that came from what she experienced and how she ended up raising me. So it's such a nice exercise to do just, you know, with your parents, if you're lucky enough to have them, just talk to them about their lives because they actually had a life before you came along. I know. Unbelievable, isn't it? You are also lucky enough to have a cousin that seems like an absolute hoot. And you speak to her on the subject of thongs.

Arikarama, what was her name? Naliaka. Naliaka. Okay, so let's hear, this is Naliaka talking about thongs. This was it. I was going to wear my thong and win the heart of the cutest boy at the party. Everything was going to wear my thong and win the heart of the cutest boy at the party. Everything was going swell. The cutest boy did notice, but nobody, nobody told me about how I would feel like my pants had gone for lunch permanently. I'm talking wedgie for days. And as I fought the urge to adjust

my undergarments for the umpteenth time, my composure failed me. As a result, nothing happened. No phone numbers exchanged, no goodbye kiss, just an awkward church-like hug at the end of the party. I could not wait to get home and take it off and return, shame-faced, to the Mother's Union Club. Namalata, the stories are brilliant. The conversations are great. But what we don't hear there is when you asked your cousin what her life, her advice would be, what would she pass on to her daughter? And what did she say? She said, always wipe from front to back. Good advice.

Namolata combo there. And if you'd like to listen to that really great podcast, Dear Daughter, then go to BBC Sounds. Susan wrote in to say say I have a dear daughter letter written by my dad in 1967. It was one of my treasures. At the time 19 years of age and a student nurse in London I was contemplating emigrating to share my life with my French boyfriend in Montreal. The letter doesn't give me advice but asks many questions to consider before taking a huge life-changing decision. And it tells a story of his first love affair as a young man, of the decisions he made and his reflections on how different his life would have been had he listened to his heart as well as his head.

And advice from Gerry, enjoy every sandwich and avoid cruel and unkind people. And Chris says to his daughter, never forget to do your pelvic floor exercises. All great advice. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. All you have to do is subscribe to the daily podcast for free via the Woman's Hour website. And just a reminder, starting on the 22nd of August, we'll be running our annual Listener Week, where all the items are chosen by you. Yes, you. So if there's an issue, story, interview or discussion you've always wanted to hear on the programme, I encourage you to come

forward and let us know. It's all happening via our website, so get in touch. Now, you'll have heard, especially on Woman's Hour, the name of a particular US legal case a lot lately, Roe v. Wade, after it was overturned by the Supreme Court in June. That landmark decision ended the constitutional right to an abortion for millions of American women. Eight states have already banned abortion, and overall about half of the states are expected to allow bans or other limits on the procedure in the coming weeks and women. Eight states have already banned abortion and overall about half of the states are expected to allow bans or other limits on the procedure in the coming weeks and months.

But who was Roe, the woman at the centre of the 1972 Roe versus Wade case? Jane Roe, as she was known by her pseudonym, her real name you might be less familiar with, Norma McCorvey. Norma sought an abortion when she became pregnant for the third time in 1969. She was living in the state of Texas, which banned the procedure. Her case ended up going to the Supreme Court, who ruled in Roe's favour, meaning abortion was effectively legalised in what was called a watershed moment for women. By the time the court ruled, though, Norma's pregnancy had long since ended and she gave birth to her third child. Of her three children, only her eldest child, Melissa,

grew up knowing Norma. Melissa was raised by her grandmother and until the age of nine believed Norma was her older sister. In a further twist and something you might not know, Norma McCorvey publicly changed sides and spoke out against abortion for a period of her life, only then to admit before she died, she'd been paid to do so. Her daughter Melissa, a nurse in Texas with two daughters of her own, cared for Norma until she passed away in 2017. Emma spoke to Melissa about her mother, who had a very complicated life, as you'll hear. She began by asking her what her mother would have made of the case that she was so central to being overturned.

I don't think she ever thought it would be overturned. I really don't. I think she would just be devastated like I was to see that taken back after all this time. All her hard work and everything that she went through and her family went through and everybody else, you know, getting to this point and then they take it all away. Do people in your life know who your mom was?

A lot of people do. Yes. They don't talk about it much though. The only reason I was thinking was you're a nurse, as I understand it, you work in, live in Texas. Of course there will be, I imagine with Texas being the state that it is, not everyone, not every woman will be sad about this overturning. They will see it as a victory. Yep. Which is sad because they don't realize everything that goes with it, you know, in vitro, sexual abuse, human trafficking, children with anomalies, advanced maternal age. There's so much more that goes with it. Incest, rape, everything. I mean, there's just a lot. And then all the babies brought into the world with no families and places to take care of these children that

are unborn people just to help the women that have these children that they don't even want to bring into the world how are they going to make it I mean it's hard for them already what are we going to do with all of this unwanted pregnancies without services it's just going to be crazy how complicated is it in terms of the memory of your mum because she did publicly switch sides it's kind of weird uh she had a lot of demons she used alcohol and drugs and she was always self-medicating to make her pain go away and it just it never did i'm not saying that i i wish she would have had the abortion but giving up the babies was really hard on her and knowing that they were out there we should say just forgive me for interrupting you but for any of our listeners that don't know the ruling came too late the ruling that her name

the code name became synonymous with so she had to go through with that third pregnancy and then then she didn't keep the babies neither baby no and she had to carry both pregnancies and uh yeah and they said she was never the same after she gave up both of those the babies is it your understanding that her decision to switch sides as it was for a long time was motivated by financial need you know she was surviving uh she had no formal education she had nothing i mean she just every day she lived paycheck to paycheck when she did work. So yeah, I think it was survival. I think it was good for her too, because she had a diagnosis that was killing her. I think she did it for a good reason. But she still was pro

woman. She always was. She wanted women to have what they needed. And is it the case that she came back to the other side of the debate at the end of her life, that she came back to where she had begun, fighting for the right for a woman to be able to have an abortion? She did. A producer approached her and asked her

if she wanted to do a documentary. And because of her, you know, she was also gay. And all the things that she went through with the case and within life, she said yes before she died and she finished it before she passed away. She was, like I said, she was always pro-woman. She wanted all rights for women, women not to to suffer women not to have to do without and be put down and held back uh so women could move forward and this would be devastating i know it would for her did she feel proud to have her name her code name uh associated with this case with this ruling do you think because it's a lot to carry.

For years, she was put down as the devil responsible for killing 60 million babies. And they said horrible things to her. They did horrible things. So I think all of it together and then with her own demons, I mean, it was hard on her. I don't know if she was so much proud. She was glad to be a part of it and glad for what she stood for, but it was hard on her. I don't know if she was so much proud. She was glad to be a part of it and glad for what she stood for. But it was hard on her. And was it hard on you? Was there a stigma that then was attached to you as the daughter of Jane, Jane Roe? It was. I was very proud of her for standing up for women and standing up for herself and not not being pushed down. And again, everybody wanted a piece of Jane Roe and Jane

Roe didn't have anything. And did that create, as you say, a stigma at times around you and the family? It did, because then we were associated with this stigma that, I guess, we didn't like kids or we didn't want to have kids. And that's not the case. She loved kids. She just didn't want to have any kids. Well, and back then it was considered, you know, if you weren't a homemaker, housekeeper, everything, you know, you weren't the right type of woman. You had a complicated relationship in terms of when you found out she was actually your mom. Is that right? Yeah, I always thought of her as my sister because we weren't around each other all the time. She was like an older sister that I got to see on holidays and breaks and special occasions. And then as I got older and it was easier for me and her to get together, she didn't have to take care of me.

I could take care of myself. It was fun. We had a lot of fun together. You were actually raised by other members of the family? Well, it was her stepdad and my real grandmother who raised me. And did you have a connection to the other children she had? I didn't until the writer approached me of the Rowe family, until he approached me and told me that he knew where both of my sisters were. Is that the documentary you were referring to? The documentary.

I actually had spoken with Shelley, the road baby, 20 something years prior. We had met. Norma was trying to find the road baby. And I spoke with her a little bit on the phone and we conversed through letters. But we never formally met until the writer came into the picture. 2012, 13, something like that. Yeah. Is that a connection you still have? Not really. No. Her and Norma had such a terrible meeting when they did meet. She kind of lumped me into that too. And I reminded her too much of Norma.

You don't know how she feels about this overturning? You know, I don't. I haven't spoken with her in a very long time. I have no idea. That's fair enough. I was just going to say, is there any part of you also working as a pediatric nurse? I know it's a different part of the hospital, part of medicine. But is there any part of you because of your family's link to this that has had those thoughts or any sympathy around the rights of the the

unborn you know the the concerns around that you know the concerns to me would be if they're going to be raised properly if they're going to be in a good family if they're going to have things they need to survive i mean why why do we want to bring these kids into the world that are going to be fighting from the beginning and never have what they need and do without? I love kids and I enjoy working with them, but I sure don't want to see them be abused. And I don't want people to not have what they need for life. Did it make you, your mum's connection with this case, this landmark case, did it make you think about your own decisions in terms of having family, having children? Did it impact you? You know, it did. I was scared to have kids. It took four people to raise me. My mother wasn't always there. My grandmother wasn't always there. My grandfather

wasn't always there. Connie, which was my mother's lover, she wasn't always. So I was with different people all the time. It took four people to raise me. And that was people who wanted to's couches. I lived at other people's homes from the time I was 13 till the time I moved out. And it was difficult. I won't lie. And my dad was always on the road. So I can't imagine, like I said, bringing these kids into the world. If it's that difficult, how in the world are they going to live? And then seeing my mom go through all of the emotional and, you know, it's hard. It's a lot. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And she spent her whole life dealing with trying to help women. I don't want to get emotional, but she spent her entire life, last breath. So it's a lot. It's really messed up. And she gave up a lot of things for both sides to try to survive herself,

but to help other women survive. Do you think it can be reversed, this Supreme Court ruling? It's going to take a lot of work. It's going to be time and a lot of work i just can't believe these people did this i mean they're on their way out i'm sorry they're in their late 60s they don't have to live in this world and see all the things that we're going to see now and all the problems we're going to have without this you're talking about the the supreme court justice one of them one of them's actually a woman who's a little bit younger as well,

who voted for it, of course, just to remember that. Well, not everybody has a white picket fence life, that's for sure. Melissa Mills there, the eldest daughter of Norma McCorvey, the woman known to many as Jane Roe in the Roe versus Wade court case, which has recently been overturned. Now, you may know her as Ronnie Mitchell from EastEnders, but now Samantha Womack is taking on a role of a more regal persuasion, the Queen of Narnia herself, the White Witch in the much-loved children's tale evacuated to the countryside during World War II and happen upon Narnia through the back of a wardrobe, a magical land full of colourful and mystical creatures, including the formidable and scary White Witch. Now are you sitting comfortably? It was a really lovely piece to do coming out of the pandemic. So I think the pandemic, all of us were kind of, you know, struggling with massive questions, weren't we? Like, what does life mean outside of the norm? All the things that we normally depend on to feel relevant. So a story about theology in the natural

world, it felt very gentle, it felt very nostalgic, and quite poignant. So it was a nice piece to come back to. Yes, and the theology element when you're a child i don't think you really pick up on you're you're not understanding that there are theological issues in there but but certainly for me it was one of the first books that i'd read that was that dealt with death um you know thinking this this was written you know 60 70 years ago And actually that was a time when, you know, stories at that time were sanitized and very kind of sweet. And so C.S. Lewis came along and kind of, you know, they were terrifying tales,

but dealing with quite big issues. And he was fascinated with that. He had a fascinating life and had a lot of loss in his own personal life. So I think he was constantly seeking the answers to those questions about what does love mean, what does loss mean. And so it feels like a really beautiful piece of work and we've kept it in that vein.

It feels it's not sanitised, it's not Disney perfect. It's a kind of dark and elegant production, which I'm really proud of. It's visually very beautiful. Does it give you the range? I mean, do you play it as frightening? How do you come at it? Does it give you that, is it thrilling to play?

Yes, and the bit that's really interesting is that she kind of, she changes and morphs. So I remember that from the description in the book that when she, she smells damage in people. And so she was very clever with the Turkish Delight. She understands that that choice of sweet from Edmund is light it's perfumed it's fragrance and it's his longing for a female presence in his life so her voice changes and she becomes sickly sweet like the Turkish

delight and kind of tries to woo him and seduce him and that's a really interesting part to play because she's serpent like you don't really get to play the kind of full villainess until the end, which is, yeah, it's fun. I bet. The energy doing that and then coming into that towards the end. I think it also is just one of those things where it's so evocative, the way it's written. I can still remember the way she's described when you first meet her.

Yes, and I remember the kind of smell of the wardrobe, you know, kind of the crunching of the snow under Lucy's feet. I remember all of that, which is crazy, thinking that we all read it kind of, you know, 20, 30 years plus ago. So, yeah, the writing's very strong. And I certainly think that part of your brain when you're forming ideas, kind of five, six and seven, the first stories that you read,

if they impact you in that way, you'll never lose them. And I think that that's the kind of nostalgia that this show brings. So many people come back. It's multi-generational. You've got grandparents who kind of read it to their children first time round and then children as young as kind of four and five.

You know, it's sometimes quite hairy for them because are there some screams yeah well there was one last night actually and I felt personally responsible and I kind of it was my job as a mother or an actress and I got quite confused because I wanted to kind of tame my performance down because I could see this child that was horrified so I didn't quite know what to do but But it's beautifully dark. You never saw us when we were watching you play a Mitchell sister. We were screaming at that sometimes. Yeah, she was quite terrifying.

What's lovely is genuinely watching people be moved by the piece of work that they're seeing. That feels very special. We've got puppeteering. We've got actor musicians on on stage so kind of floating cellos violins fiddles um it's it really is kind of all-encompassing um and for me certainly I mean I've been watching it from the side of stage for you know six months plus but I'm still moved by it Aslan's speech you know to his audience it's just beautiful and poignant and it's done

to kind of you know violins and cellos it's just very lovely I think as you say when you read something that powerful and then it stays with you you don't care about what age you are although if you're four and you're screaming that's a slightly different thing I was very disappointed to completely lower the tone that when I did finally try

Turkish Delight I didn't like it you don's horrid. You don't like it either. In the 70s, they did, didn't they? Fries Turkish Delight. So not only was it bad, but they then covered it in chocolate. My grandmother used to have it in a fruit bowl in her flat. Do you have to eat it on set? Luckily, I don't have to eat any. Do you watch Eurovision? I love Eurovision. I didn't like, I didn't love being in it. We need to talk about that just briefly because I did Eurovision. I didn't like I didn't love being in it. We need to talk about that just briefly because I did not know. I still have PTSD but I love watching it. You were 90? I was a baby and I was a session singer I wasn't ever supposed to do it. And you were part

of our entry? You were? Yeah but I was only supposed to do backing vocals and then the producer came in and heard me sing it in the studio and I think at the time I didn't really understand the enormity of what I'd said yes to. For me, it just meant more money. What year was this? 91. 91. OK.

The only reason I thought of Eurovision this morning, apart from the fact that you played a role in it and I hadn't known, was the fact that we're hosting it. It's been decided. I don't know if you saw this in the news. I didn't know that. Yes. No, next year, after organisers said it couldn't be held in the winning country Ukraine of course due to the ongoing war so there's now obviously a conversation about where it's going to be in the UK so there is excitement uh for those who love that and I didn't know if you've done something like that you say

you have PTSD can you still watch it I can still watch it just being deeply relieved that I am not in it I bet I bet um I also just had to ask you and I remember on the day the day after we talked about her but you did work with June Brown Doc Cotton died earlier this year at age 95 I mean what a woman yeah she really speaking on woman's out yeah no she's she's phenomenal I mean she I mean her early career I'd spend hours hours with June in her dressing room, just chatting to her because we got to do a lot of scenes together. And she was fiercely protective of all the characters in the show, including mine. She kind of fought valiantly to, I don't know,

just kind of protect the characters and remember their history. I was always very moved by her memory of other people's stories, not just her own. She rewrote a whole scene once. There was an explanation of kind of Ronnie's story, depicting her kind of loss of her baby and all of the storylines after that. And it wasn't completely accurate. And so she sat down and she said, no, I've got to get it just right because it's important. And she kind of made all these adjustments

and then she did it in one of those wonderful scenes where she was just smoking a cigarette in her kitchen and tells Ronnie's story. And I sat and watched it on the monitors and just thought, wow, she's incredible. It sounds like there was a real friendship across a lot of the cast and also a real sisterhood because is it right that you're still very close to to Roxy to yeah yeah yeah

because we spent um the best part of nine years uh pretending to be related so your brain starts to you know that's the majority of your day is is making out that somebody else is related to you and you do that with all the members of the cast. So leaving a job like that, the job is one thing, but leaving the personal relationships is quite confusing because in your mind you've invested in a family for 10 years. Samantha Womack there, the new white witch in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Now, how are your cupboards these days?

Overflowing? Bursting? Well, listen up because you'll be very interested in this next item. Friends and business partners, Clea Shearer and Joanna Teplin have become stars of pandemic feel-good TV with their Netflix show Get Organised with the Home Edit. The two series are based on their organising company, which started in Nashville and has now spread to eight other US cities. The TV show follows a tried and tested satisfying formula. They go into someone's home, be it a Hollywood celebrity or a stressed family of five, and transform a cluttered space into something beautiful and functional using their finely honed systems and a shed load of matching containers. The actor and executive producer Reese Witherspoon liked what

they did so much she bought the company. Well Emma spoke to Clea and Joanna on video call and asked Clea if she'd always been organized herself. I was always into just the sorting and the categories and arrangement and the organizing aspect of it. Even in college, I lived in New York City, so I was short on space. So I had to get pretty creative and I would hang up all my handbags on the wall like art. I would just find different ways to creatively store all my items. And that's just the way I've always been. And I think that the older I got, the more people did comment and think it quite weird, all of my, my methods. But they were perplexed by it. And I just thought it was so normal. So I think, you know, eventually, if somebody tells you, you're good at something after a while,

you should believe them. So that's kind of how I how I found my niche, your background in that. And you said niche, a lot of Americans say niche. So I's kind of how I, how I found my niche. Your background in that. And you said niche, a lot of Americans say niche. So I was excited to hear that. Does that mean I'm British? You're in, you're in, that's all it takes. Johanna, let me just ask about when this began for you, was it always a way of life? I very much emulated what Clea is describing. I loved organizing my room. I had all these little tiny collections that I'd always move around and shift shelves and make sure that they were arranged just as I saw them fit in my brain. And then I took a different turn in high school and college and was a total slob, just an

absolute mess. And then I came back around to the other side of my coin when I was really in my late twenties. And especially when I was pregnant with my son, I became obsessed with organizing my home and making sure that everything had an exact space. And I think it was like more of a control thing when I was pregnant. Do you think that it stops you or has stopped you over the years enjoying your home, enjoying hosting and actually making a mess that you then have to clean up? Clear? Not at all. I love having people over and I pride myself in the fact that, you know, my systems are really, really simple. And even if there's a mess

in the meantime, I can get it right back to where it needs to be in, you know, 15 minutes. So it hasn't stopped me at all. I think it just proves that being organized makes living in your home that much easier. Both have two kids separately, obviously. And it's not that they don't make a mess. They are kids. And it's not that our husbands, you know, don't make a mess too. It's just that we know the systems are there. So it's so easy to put back in place. So it never stresses us out to see the mess because we know exactly how it's going to get put back. What's stressful is when there's no system. Are you always the one to put it back, Joanna, though? Because that's what a lot of our maybe female listeners might feel, which is that they have their own version of a system. Maybe

it's not that sophisticated, but they certainly know where everything goes, but they feel they're the only ones as women retracing objects. Well, you know what we always say it's either you have to decide if it's a you problem or, or a we problem. And you want to make the system so simple that anybody can put it back so that it's, it's a we problem. It's, it's not just about you. I get it. I mean, clear there are, you've got some golden rules,'t you yes we have quite a few golden rules but I would say the top of the heap is if you want to maintain an organized home for the long term you should never have a space that's more than 80 percent full you want to leave that 20 percent of room very similar to how one is supposed to eat you don't want to eat until you're 100 percent

full because that's really uncomfortable. If you're maxed out, that doesn't leave you any room for dessert. It doesn't leave you any room for feeling very good in your body or in your home. And if you get something new comes in the door, whether it's in your closet, your pantry, your kitchen, whatever it may be, there is some room for it. And you're not in a dire straight situation where you have to then remove something to allow something new to come in. I mean, I love what you said about food because some people listening to thinking, well, I do like to eat until I'm incredibly full. And then I stuff a dessert on top of it, but you're right. I don't feel good.

Were you guys friends first? What, what came first, the business or the friendship? The business. Really? Yeah. It was a blind date. A friend set us up for lunch and we sat down. We had never met before. And we both had kind of ambitions for starting a home organizing business in Nashville. But four hours into our lunch, we sat up and we were business partners. So we went into business the same day we met. Wow, that was a good blind date. I wanted to just touch on Reese Witherspoon, who explained to our listeners what she means to you, the relationship there, and of course, her role in the television side as well as this. Reese is our producing partner. Hello Sunshine's produced our show for the last few years. And Reese, again, did find us on Instagram.

And she just thought that we were a couple of funny, talented ladies on Instagram. And we couldn't believe it. Obviously, you know, when Reese Witherspoon wants to talk to you, you certainly say yes. So we ended up working together on the TV show. But then in November, we began conversations for an actual acquisition. And in February of Hello Sunshine formally acquired the Home Edit. So Reese is more than just a producing partner. She's our partner partner in business. And we're incredibly lucky to be inextricably tied to her. Well, it sounds like an amazing relationship that, as you say, came

from her seeing your work on Instagram. And also she's spoken a lot about her mission to have women at the heart of audiences and at the heart of content that we see. And I just wonder how important you think it is having more high profile women like her, you know, being these players in entertainment, if you like, deciding what we see, editing what we see in some ways. Yes, we are so aligned, obviously, from a female storytelling point of view, and from a female business owner point of view, you know, I think that in order to really forge a way for women to be taken seriously in all different aspects of whether it be media, business in general, all of

it, you know, we've had to do it ourselves. And I think that Reese and Hello Sunshine, they feel the same way. You know, it's in if you want to have a part in Hollywood, for instance, sometimes you have to produce that part yourself. My only other question was Joanna, do you have a dirty corner of your house that you want to confess to, or is everything sorted? No, everything is very, very organized again. Not that it doesn't get messy. It absolutely gets messy, but it's important to feel like I've created a space where you can share. Cause that's what I do. So, Clea, anything you want to confess? Every single corner of my house, everything has a home.

Everything is in its organized place. But my daughter's drawers are just wild. She cannot. I don't know how she gets dressed every day. There's no way to keep them folded. She just tears through her drawers. It's embarrassing. How old is she? 11. Oh, right. I love it. A wild draw. It's bad. And if she wants to live like a maniac, then that is her choice.

Emma talking to Cleo Shearer and Joanna Taplin, the founders of The Home Edict. And Stephen wrote in to say, I enjoyed the interview with the home organising women and I agree completely with the 80% rule and having firm routines for organising and tidying up. I say that as a self-employed man whose office is fit for guests at all times. Organisation and neatness can also be a male characteristic, although I confess the kitchen is an unknown land

and I do struggle to know where the more obscure items go. That said, I clear the counters and wipe them down every night. Aren't you a good'un? Join us on Monday where hopefully we'll be celebrating the lioness's victory. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.