Woman's Hour - Actor Tamsin Greig. Pregnant women and the booster jab. Volunteering. Miss World at 70.

Episode Date: December 14, 2021

Actor Tamsin Greig on her latest role as the legendary agent Peggy Ramsay. The Prime Minister has announced that all over 18s in England are being offered a Covid-19 booster vaccination. But as he sets out this new target has that message reached pregnant women? Emma talks to Dr Viki Male a Reproductive Immunologist based at Imperial College LondonTens of thousands of volunteers are needed to come forward to support the NHS booster campaign. Do you plan to volunteer? What are the benefits of volunteering? And as Miss World celebrates being 70, we hear from women who protested against it in the 1970's. Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley PurcellPHOTO CREDIT; Shaun Webb.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Your country needs you. That's the message from the Prime Minister last night as he appealed for an army of volunteers to deliver COVID jabs around the clock and help steer people towards these pop-up centres across the country. Boris Johnson has said thousands of volunteers are needed to come forward

and help deliver the booster shot in the arm before Christmas. These roles include staffing pop-up centres and other vaccination sites and we're going to provide more details shortly. But do you volunteer? Might you for this? Why do you do it? Whatever you do, what do you get out of it? Normally, 70% of volunteers are women. But in this particular instance, we may see that change with many men coming forward. But what is it for you, regardless of the role? Is it about purpose? Is it about the friendships that you've made? Is it about trying to give something back?

One man I heard with regards to volunteering in this role said that he was at his local job centre because he wanted to give something back and help save lives after losing a parent during the pandemic. But what is it for you? Of course, for some, it's called selfish altruism. That's fine as well. Why do you get up and do what you do if you are a volunteer or have been one in the past?

84844, text will be charged at your standard message rate. That's the number you need to text message. Social media at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. Also on today's programme, the actor Tamsin Gregg, you may know and love her from, for instance, Friday Night Dinner on Channel 4, the hospital comedy Green Wing or her many theatre roles. Her latest role in the theatre in Hampstead

sees her playing a legendary agent who became a bit more famous than some of her clients, Peggy Ramsey. So Tam's in Greg to talk about that very soon and other things too. And as the preparations conclude for the 70th Miss World competition happening this week, two days' time, the bikini category is reinstated, I'll be joined by two of the original flower bombing protesters from that very famous protest in 1970, seen by

millions around the globe. Let's see what they make of the bikini part of the competition being reinstated. Looking forward to it. Stay with us for that. But on Sunday evening, the Prime Minister did announce that all over 18s in England are being offered a COVID-19 booster vaccination with the aim to have all adults boosted by the end of the month. Of course, those who have already had the first and second jabs, we should say. Some people are not at that point. That is what the Great Volunteering Drive is all about that you're getting in touch about now. But is enough being done to reassure pregnant women that the booster is safe, as well as those initial jabs? Data from the UK Health Security Agency show more than 80,000 pregnant women in England received at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine, with dates going up to the 31st of October.

Also, what about those other women, especially younger women, we know are avoiding being jabbed over fears of fertility and the impact on their fertility. Dr Vicky Mayle is a reproductive immunologist based at Imperial College London. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for joining us today. And I actually know we're interrupting you looking at this right now. You're meant to be on a seminar, but you've skived to talk to us. They were very understanding.

They thought that it was important that I came on and talked to your listeners. Yes, because this is a very important part of the message. In terms of what do we actually know? What evidence is there about the impact of the vaccine on pregnant women? Let's start with that. Well, I think we should... Vicky, I'm so sorry. I sorry start by talking about what's the impact if you get covid vicky i'm so sorry vicky i'm so sorry to interrupt that's a terrible thing when

we do that but your line is very very difficult and i don't know if you're able to switch off your um your camera to actually potentially improve that line because i believe we're having some issues with bandwidth and the message is very important and I would just like to make sure we can get that. Vicky, sorry, you wanted to start, I believe, by saying we'll just try again and if not I'll go to our next discussion and see if we can improve it. You want to discuss the impacts of getting COVID when you're pregnant. All right, Vicky, it's not, I'm sorry.'m sorry dr vicky male i will come back to you i promise we do want to hear what you have to say with regards to uh the safety of the covid19 jab and if you're pregnant and also impact on fertility but i do know uh not to in any way

keep suspense going it's it's a widely publicized uh public health message uh that there is evidence to show it is safe and vicky is going to take us through that. I will come back to that. But I was talking about volunteering and your country, our country needing you. Tens of thousands of volunteers are needed to come forward to support the NHS booster campaign. There are now almost 3,000 vaccine sites across the country staffed by over 90,000 volunteers who've given up 1.1 million hours of time so far. Hundreds more sites, mobile units, pop-ups will be set up across the country including at football stadiums, shopping centres, race courses, places of worship in the next week. Are you planning on getting involved? What are the benefits of volunteering? Well two

women who know or should know, Catherine Johnston, Chief Executive of the Royal Voluntary Service, which is delivering the NHS Volunteers Responders Programme and also have their own army of volunteers supporting the community, and Alison Ogden-Newton, the Chief Executive of Keep Britain Tidy. A warm welcome to you both. Catherine, first of all, who are the volunteers that you are looking to come forward at the moment?

Tell us what the call is. OK, thanks very much. So as people will be aware, either from the Sun newspaper or from lots of calls out from Number 10 and the Devolved Nations. We are looking for volunteers across the country to sign up to be steward volunteers. This comes from the backdrop of 12.4 million people signing up last year to volunteer, 4.6 million for the first time, of which 3.8 million are saying they'd really like to carry on with their volunteering careers, you know, to help people with the recovery from the pandemic. So today, Royal Voluntary Service is asking for 30,000 new steward vaccinator volunteers. They don't, they're not the ones doing the vaccinations. These are the ones helping with the logistics at the site. So as you'll have heard just now, there are a lot more sites being set up. We need to go quicker with the vaccination programme and the steward volunteers.

It's a really simple role. We need people to sign up for one or two shifts a week. When we went live with this call out last week, we've since had 22,000 people step forward to apply to be volunteers. And again, it's just a phenomenal response from the people in our country. We need to be really proud of how people are prepared to step forward. They will be joining the 103,000 steward volunteers who already exist, and many of them are now switching back on and accepting shifts and if you are a steward volunteer it as I said it's really simple and and the premise is is the the smoother we can make the vaccination centres work with car parking needle phobias people finding their way to the right booth helping the staff feeding the staff getting them tea and coffee for every single time we take an admin or a logistics task then the professional

medics and things can put another jab in the arm as can the john's volunteer vaccinators so it's all about keeping it moving so if you like logistics you like talking to people you like queue management i love a bit of management i mean we all do yeah queue management it's amazing amazing who doesn't love a bit of queue management i mean queuing is a national sport absolutely um it's it's very interesting to see some of the messages coming through let me just read a couple one saying i volunteer as a marshal at a vaccine centre as well as a community shop because I couldn't stand by and do nothing in the face

of this serious situation. It is very rewarding helping people and I feel like I'm making a difference. Another one here saying, I'm a volunteer vaccinator since March.

Honestly, it's one of the best things I've done. It's about feeling useful post-retirement, valued and appreciated. If that seems a bit self-satisfied, so be it.

It feels right is all i can say and that's from allison and i did mention that regularly or in regular times rather 70 percent or so of volunteers are women um but yet it could be a bit of a different picture in this instance uh with with a national crisis as it as it's being billed by the Prime Minister, I should say? Yeah, so definitely. So COVID has affected everyone and it's been a real leveller in terms of volunteering. So it's opened up the landscape and made people who perhaps wouldn't have thought about giving their time before, made it accessible, made it an opportunity where they can see where they can go, they can do it. do it it's really practical for many people it's time limited which is quite important and actually some of the tech that's been developed during the pandemic allows people to choose when they want to volunteer when they've

got a bit of spare time and we've seen that with micro volunteering where people are doing you know collection of meds shopping for people helping people to stay safe and at home. So there is a much bigger mix of genders in terms of people who are volunteering. But volunteering is good for everyone. If you have a good volunteering experience, you have a better physical health, you have a better mental health, you're more socially connected, you're less lonely and isolated. So it's got a double benefit. And actually, we surveyed an awful lot of the people, and I hate this term, but pandemic volunteers. So people who have been, you know, living through the pandemic, like all of us, and therefore have had the same pressures, but where they have volunteered that

81% more likely to be connected, feel more confident, feel physically and mentally healthier. So, again, you can see that it has a direct benefit. Yes. Let me bring in Alison Ogden-Newton, Chief Executive of Keep Britain Tidy. Alison, good morning. Good morning, Emma. I remember when we last spoke a few months back, some months back now, I had a bit of a hunch that perhaps women were more likely to be litter pickers, which was what we were talking about in one of your big campaigns. And not only did you say, yes, that was the case, you also enlightened me and all of our listeners, perhaps they didn't know as well,

or some of them will have done, that actually Keep Britain Tidy was grown out of the Women's Institute. That's right. That's right that's absolutely right we are a movement that is absolutely embedded in women's politics so Keep Britain Tidy came about because women identified litter as an environmental disaster and we've been campaigning on it ever since. Obviously all our volunteers are mixed, but in reflection of the national statistics, the majority of our volunteers are women. And without them, we couldn't do the wonderful work that we do. Yes, well, again, these messages coming in away from volunteering with regards to the pandemic, you know, there's one here saying, I work as a social worker and do

lots of voluntary work within my local community, including with the school, brownies, kids rugby club, local community centre. We live in a rural area and get very little support from the local council to provide resources. I volunteer in order to help improve the local community for all, says Sally in North Wales. Another one here about volunteering in a charity shop. I mean, what do you hear from those who get involved with your campaigns and what they get out of it? What was that? What's the overriding message? Well, I think the overriding message is wanting to make a difference.

And I think if women in particular feel that they can make a difference, they can see that what they're doing is helping, they're much more likely to get involved. And, you know, it is one of those great questions. Why is the world's most, you know, leading environmental campaigner Greta and not George? I do think women are more likely to get stuck in. They're more likely to roll their sleeves up.

If they see a problem, they are slightly more likely to try and fix it, particularly if they think they can make a difference. So I think for us, it is about that cause and effect. There'll be some men listening to this. We have many, many listening thinking, I'm rolling up my sleeves. I'm doing my bit. I don't agree with this, Alison. Well, there are. And again, we've got, you know, a very healthy minority of our volunteers are men. And I think, and they do some fantastic work. And again, some of our volunteers are men and I think and they do some fantastic work and again some of our best campaigners so it isn't just women but it is just simply the case that women are more likely to do what's necessary if they see a problem they won't just identify litter they

won't just be frightened or or depressed about it, Emma, they will find themselves a litter pick and they'll get out there and they'll pick it up. I like my claw. But you do. I like my claw. I mean, I was using it so much the other day I nearly broke it. But that's my Saturday morning fun for you. So it's a great look, especially when you see something.

I don't know about you, but you see something and you see it growing over a few days because litter attracts litter. And then you're in that situation of I'm just going to have to deal with this. Do you still volunteer, Alison, yourself? Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. I do all sorts of volunteering, preferably for other organisations because I like to spread the love. Yes. And what's your personal thing for it? Because, you know, you've got a lot of people getting in touch saying it just gives me so much as well as obviously helping the cause. Well, I've had an allotment for 23 years and allotments don't work without volunteers who organise all the sort of communal facilities and sites.

And also I'm part of charities that protect wildlife, because for me, wildlife is not just the litmus test of a healthy environment. But let's face it, you know, it gladdens the heart and we all need to be protecting wildlife. Alison, thank you very much. Lovely to talk to you, Alison Ogden-Newton, with a bit of the history of Keep Britain Tidy and the role of women in particular when it comes to volunteering. Catherine Johnson, final word from you on this. I suppose there's a plea that is also going out at the same time is please be polite to those who are volunteering. They are a new front line in this. And of course, people are very stressed at the moment.

There's a lot going on, but there's also even about this a debate. But beyond that, and maybe you want to say something on that, how do people get in touch? How do people join this new army of volunteers or renewed army i should say yeah expanding army of volunteers so um if you're interested in becoming a steward volunteer or actually a vaccinated volunteer then you can go to nhs volunteer responders and sign up there or come to the royal voluntary service website also on the royal voluntary service website are lots of other uh sort of and sign up there or come to the Royal Voluntary Service website. Also on the Royal Voluntary Service website are lots of other sort of pandemic and community-based volunteering opportunities.

So if COVID volunteering is not for you in a vaccination centre, I'm sure we can find something else that will support you to engage with your community. You know, I cannot say how proud I am right at this moment to be leading Royal Voluntary Service because our society is doing us proud. You know, no matter what the politics are, no matter what is going on, you know, in the news every day, us all pulling together, and I hate to say it, sort of Dunkirk spirit-like, to get through the pandemic is what we will do best. And we must keep the cavalry rolling. So anybody out there, woman or man, please do step forward.

You'll find it really rewarding. And everybody out there who's getting their jabs, please be kind to all of our volunteers. A key message. They're there to support you. A key message indeed. Catherine Johnson, Chief Executive of the Royal Voluntary Service.

Thank you. A message here from Jo, who says, my partner died in March. I'm very sorry to hear that, Jo. Volunteering has helped me feel useful again. And the social contact helps my mental health. And Veronica says, I'm coming up to my 40th year of volunteering. Congratulations with girl guiding.

Why do I do it? For the girls who get the experience of lots of things they would not at school or home. I work with five to 18 year olds and they keep me young, active and they put a smile on my face. Come and try it. I have to say, many of these stories are putting a smile on our face or certainly volunteering has been putting a smile on your face. Come and try it. I have to say, many of these stories are putting a smile on our face, or certainly volunteering has been putting a smile on your face. But it's all in aid, this particular national push spearheaded by the Prime Minister and talked about last night by Boris Johnson, in aid of the new ambition to get a booster jab into the arms of all over 18s before the end of the year. Dr Vicky Mayle, a reproductive immunologist who we were just trying to talk to before with some technical glitches there from the Imperial College London, was going

to talk to us about the impact or what we know the impact of the evidence is with regards to the jab, the booster jab and pregnancy. Dr Vicky Mayle, hello. Hello again. Yes, you are clear, loud and clear in good health in terms of our tech. You were about to say, let's start this conversation talking about the impact of COVID-19 on pregnant women and those who haven't been jabbed. Yes. So if you get COVID, particularly towards the end of your pregnancy, it's about twice as likely that you will have your baby preterm. And actually, 1% of the preterm births that we saw in the UK in the last year were COVID preterm births. It's also about three times as likely that your baby will be stillborn. And of course, those are terrible things that we would really like to avoid

for everyone. And so we want to avoid catching COVID. And one of the really best ways to do that is to get the COVID vaccination. And this is why the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and the Royal College of Midwives really recommend that if you're pregnant and you haven't already, you get the COVID vaccination. And if you have and you're now eligible for the booster, we do also recommend that you go and get boosted. Do we have evidence about the booster specifically on pregnant women?

Not specifically the booster because the booster is quite new. In fact, hardly anyone in this country who's pregnant will have been boosted yet just because the booster was only rolled out to people who are under 40 yesterday, in fact. But what we do have evidence about is doses one and two. So you've mentioned, you said 80,000 people. I've actually heard from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, 100,000 people now in the UK vaccinated during pregnancy. In the USA, 179,000. And we also have studies that looked at the outcomes of pregnancy for 101,761 people who've been vaccinated during pregnancy. And there's no increased risk of any pregnancy complication with doses one and two. We also

know in the general population, so people who aren't pregnant, that dose three is very similar in its safety, well, identical really, in its safety profile to doses one and two. So taking all of this together, we have absolutely every reason to believe that to doses one and two. So taking all of this together, we have absolutely every reason to believe that like dose one and two, which are really safe in pregnancy, dose three will also be very safe in pregnancy and it boosts your immunity. Is there a difference with what type of vaccine you get? Well, so some people might have been offered AstraZeneca earlier in the vaccine rollout, although in the spring, we changed to saying that if you were under 40, you wouldn't be

offered AstraZeneca. So most people of the kind of age who they're, you know, having babies are likely to have had two doses of Pfizer. But even if you had AstraZeneca, no matter which first dose you have, we're offering you Pfizer or a half dose of Moderna as the booster. And I hope that will be quite reassuring to people who are pregnant because we have most of our safety data around those vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna. So that's where the evidence is for women right now who are pregnant, who are a bit

nervous about putting something in their body that they aren't sure the evidence is there to say it's safe. You've got the evidence on those two. We have got the evidence, most of the evidence on those two, but there is also some on AstraZeneca that said you're not going to be offered AstraZeneca right now. But to take that idea of, you know, being worried about what you put in your body when you're pregnant, which is completely understandable. What you don't want to put in your body is a horrible pandemic virus. So I think that if we think of it like that, it makes it clearer that actually it's a good idea to get protected against COVID, which can cause these really terrible outcomes to pregnancy that we definitely would like to avoid. But just to be crystal clear, the evidence exists to show putting those two particular

vaccines into your body, if you are a pregnant woman, has no effect on the baby or yourself. There is evidence from hundreds of thousands of people to tell us that it has no bad effect on pregnancy. It may actually have a good effect because the antibodies that your body make will go into your baby and give your baby some protection probably after it's born. But definitely all the evidence we have now says there is no bad effect of vaccination in pregnancy. And it's very safe. And even though the booster is relatively new because it's made, and I'm speaking in, you know, cod science here, but because it's made from the same ingredients, or pretty much as what's already gone into your body, if you've had one and two, you are confident that the same level of safety assurance can be given?

We are confident that the same level of safety assurance can be given. In fact, it's not even that it's made of the same thing. It is the same thing. If I turn up for my booster, I'm going to get the exact same thing as someone who's coming in for their first or second dose. There you go. Just, you know, I say it how I can and you're going to improve upon it. That's the role here of, I suppose,

you as the expert and me as the journalist. And just to go to the fertility points, because we've had a lot of conversations here throughout the year on Women's Hour, while I've been here here certainly around people saying my daughter or my daughter-in-law or my sister will not get any vaccination never mind the booster because they are worried about long-term effects on fertility how can we know we've only had it for a few months well we do actually have evidence around that so in the clinical trials uh we looked

we did ask people not to become pregnant in the clinical trials, but they were large trials and accidents happen. And people became pregnant by accident at the same rate in the vaccinated and in the unvaccinated groups. So it didn't prevent pregnancies in the clinical trials. And now in the wider rollout, we have more evidence, particularly from IVF settings, which is really strong evidence because we know that everyone's trying very hard to get pregnant and they're trying in the same way. And again, we find that vaccinated versus unvaccinated, it makes no difference to your chance of becoming pregnant. Indeed, in some of the studies I'm doing, I've had quite a lot of people who have become vaccinated

and become pregnant. And we have something like 15,000 on the record post-vaccination pregnancies, although that's an underestimate because of course not everyone goes and tells the government when they've become pregnant after a vaccine. So really, we have a lot of evidence to say that vaccination doesn't do anything to fertility. In fact, if you're thinking of becoming pregnant in the near future, you might even want to prioritise getting the vaccine so that you're protected before you become pregnant. Because as we've discussed, catching COVID when you're pregnant can be bad for you and for the baby.

And let's just dwell on that for a moment. I mean, you know, listen, I'm well aware that people who are worried about this, especially younger women that we're talking about with regards to fertility, there is no telling, some of them. You know, they're not necessarily going to be listening to a woman's hour, never mind.

Even engaging with this conversation, I've heard some of them you know they're not necessarily going to be listening to a woman's hour never mind even engaging with this conversation I've heard some of the frustration from our listeners who have had who've tried to have these conversations and we've had a conversation about how to have the conversation but really is worth dwelling just for our final couple of minutes together on if you get Covid when you are pregnant it's incredibly dangerous on every level isn't it it can be well yes so the problem really seems to come particularly at the end of pregnancy um and what happens is pregnancy itself puts a lot of strain on your heart and lungs and covid puts a lot of strain on your heart and lungs so that means that there is a greater risk of severe disease and when you become severely ill what

we will try to do to save your life is to put you on your front. And in order to put you on your front, we will deliver your baby. And that's why we have these pre-term births that are associated with COVID infection. It's not that you have a bit of a cough and suddenly go into labour. It's that you're in this very dangerous situation and we deliver your baby to try and save your life. And that's a difficult decision. We're prioritising the life of the mother at the potential risk of the baby, because it's not good to be born preterm. And that's why I think it's so important to get this message across. Because now that we have the vaccines, those early deliveries that we're having to do, that horrible position that we're having to put

your family in of making a decision between your life and your baby's life, it's not necessary anymore. You can protect yourself by getting vaccinated. Dr Vicky Mao, I will not keep you a minute longer from the work that you're doing, looking into precisely this. Reproductive immunologist based at Imperial College London, armed with the facts and evidence as we have it. Thank you for your time. Many messages coming in about volunteering. Just to read a couple more. Sue says, I volunteered to give back to the hospice. He supported my parents and myself. The hospice made our lives so much better during their illnesses. And the hospice community has a positive live well message that just kept us going.

Another one here. I volunteer for the Samaritans. My husband's in the military. And as we move from posting to posting, it helps me make friends in the new area. Being there for people during their time of need is also a massive privilege, says Polly. Polly, thank you so much for that and for your work. Now, I did mention agents are not supposed to be more famous than their clients, unless, of course, you are the formidable, outrageous and often hilarious Peggy Ramsey. If you haven't heard of her, Margaret Francesca Peggy Ramsey, as she's known, was one of the most celebrated theatrical agents in the UK until her death in 1991. And a play about her life called Peggy for You was written by one of her former clients, which was a tribute of sorts in 1999. Well, 20 years on since its premiere,

the play returns to Hampstead Theatre this week and playing Peggy, Olivier Award winning actor Tamsin Gregg, who joins me now. Good morning. Morning. Hi. Thank you so much for being with us. And before we talk about Peggy and your role, let's just hear a clip from the play. Here's Peggy in conversation with one of her writers, Simon. My play is like a bridge in Yorkshire. No, you see, that's the point. It isn't like a bridge. It should be, but it isn't. Why? Why not? Whichever. It's what we do in the theatre. The writer says to the audience, I'm going to take you for a walk across a great bridge. At the far end of the bridge is in the mist, but don't worry, I know where we're going.

And you lead the audience by the hand to the far side of the river and the mist clears and the audience looks around and they say, my God, what a wonderful place. We've never been here. Thank you for bringing us here. But my play isn't like a bridge. Of course not. At the end of your play, we're still on the same side of the river.

You haven't taken us anywhere. You don't tell us anything we don't already know. That's why it isn't a play. But it has two good scenes. And that's why I said, come and talk to me. Somebody at the beginning of their career talking to Peggy. Well, the mist did clear. I was very lucky to see you last night, Tamsin, treading the boards as Peggy. Why did you want to do this? I didn't know about Peggy Ramsey. I didn't know the play. It was sent to me by Hampstead, where I've worked twice before, as part of their retrospective season this year, knowing that it would be a revival.

I was really intrigued by the play and by the character. It feels like a kind of love letter by Alan Plater to his former agent, who he's with for three decades, I think. And it shows this extraordinary woman who doesn't seem to conform to any kind of human normality and I was intrigued by that and was also of course thinking how important it is for to help encourage people to come back to experience live theatre I thought this would be a good combination. Well you do it extremely well if I may say and I have to say a lot of leg on show at many points we see your stockings and suspenders quite a bit yeah no so Peggy was um with very loved she loved material she loved feeling material on her

body and would often just sit up on with her legs up on the desk and her skirt would just fall down to much higher than it should and she didn't mind didn't notice and thought it was hilarious if other people did mind. I mean, I was very clear. I'm wearing quite a lot of pants. Yes, that was that. I just, you know, radio is about painting images. So I just want to make sure we do that. And she is surrounded by men as well, isn't she? Yes, she has her assistants, but all the playwrights that she's often talking about,

her clients, it's a lot of men around her. And actually one of her clients, the very famous Simon Callow, I believe he was in the audience last night. Yeah, he was. He was actually a client in a sense because she represented playwrights. She was a play agent. She helped Simon a great deal when he was beginning his own illustrious writing career. And in fact, he wrote this beautiful book called Love Is Where It Falls

about his passionate love affair with her, which was reciprocated, which was completely based on art and the flame of being alive. And but she represented, you know, the greats through the 50s, 60s, 70s, but a great deal of men with some notable women. But she did enjoy the company of men and found what they wrote about to be more intriguing to her because she said it was they were showing things that she didn't know. And she felt that women showed her things that she already knew. I don't personally agree with that, but I think it's important to investigate people who stand in a completely different place to you

Yes, and I mean that was it you know, there's a line in the play again, I'm not quite sure what's direct quotes and what's just inferred but you know, that she says it how it is you know, there's no hypocrisy there from her in the sense of saying it straight Yeah, she described herself in a letter

to Edward Bond one time it's a beautiful book about a collection of all of her letters, many of her letters to her playwrights, called Peggy to Her Playwrights. And she writes to Edward Bond, who was one of her clients, that she felt like, for her, it felt like she was a wild cat trapped in a suburban house and people expect her to not claw up the furniture. Well, I mean, how did she, the play is a day in her life. It's very busy. There's lots of things

going on all the time. Lots of phone calls. As someone who loves a landline, I was very happy to see how much the phone was actually ringing and you don't have any of these technical glitches or not in the same way. But, you know, how did she get to where she got to because that's the that's not included in the play and it was a man's world a lot of the time yeah well she started she grew up in south africa and then came to london when she got married left her husband very quickly but then became an actor well actress she would have called herself and then a singer so she she she sang in in a touring opera company. So she was very much in that world. But on the side, she also earned money by reading plays

for various different producers. And then found that she had this extraordinary gift, which was spotted by a number of producers, where she could open up a script and read it and see it three-dimensionally. Now, I don't have that skill. I really struggle reading scripts and have it three-dimensionally. Now, I don't have that skill. I really struggle reading scripts and have to have a lot of help. But she had this vision, this perspicacity, this kind of, she connected with the flame of the play. And it was spotted by these producers,

the Christie's, the husband and wife team. They put her in an office and said, try and be an agent. She said, well, I'll try. And that's the office that they put her into at Goodwin's Court that you saw on stage. She stayed there for the whole of her career. It does look like a dream office. I mean, apart from this brown carpet with lots of stains that she describes and various people coming in or people being described as being sick

and falling over and blood and all sorts of things. But one of those London offices you kind of always hope if you're going to go into that world you'd end up with? There's a great line, there's many great lines, but there's a great line when she says, everyone needs a wife. And I wonder what you've made of that. I thought to myself, I know exactly what she means by that.

Well, she actually says men don't need wives, women need wives. Yes, it's slightly less PC. A lot of things she said, she used to say, would not have been acceptable, would not be acceptable now. She would have abhorred council culture. You know, everybody needs help, right? We all need assistance. And the notion that only men need help is, you know, is a false one. So she was just looking at the hypocrisy of that,

which I think is very intriguing. Yes. I mean, yes, you obviously do know the lines. I'm badly paraphrasing, so I'll turn to you for those. No, no, no. But the cancel culture thing is fascinating because I wonder if somebody like her would thrive today. Or, you know, because a lot of the cancel culture is fictionalised in the sense of it's in a bubble,

it's in a world, it doesn't pour into your real life, but some of it is now pouring into people's real lives and affecting their livelihoods. So I wonder if you think she could thrive today? I think she would have thrived anyway, because she was so alive and was so interested in, she was passionate about art and that flame never went out. So I don't think Council Gardner could have snuffed her out, really. I think she would have, it would probably have been oil on the fire for her and make her burn brighter. And I did mention some of your roles.

You, of course, played the Jewish mother in the Channel 4 sitcom, Friday Night Dinner. If Peggy was your agent, what would she have made of you, say, in a recent interview, I probably shouldn't have been in that show? Well, I think that what she would have thought about that was about honest reflection. And tell us why you said that, I should say.

Well, actually, I think it was taken slightly out of context. And what I meant by it was that if we were casting it now we would have had very very different conversations about the necessity for casting me in it and whether the the casting should have been wider you know but 10 years ago who knew that those conversations were coming you know we do things going oh yeah no that looks like a really interesting role and actually it's about a woman trying to survive in a wild family that seems to be falling apart, which I think at that time was a very resonant part of people's lives. So, yeah, I think it was a good byline. In terms of the headline that was picked for that recent interview. But yes, you're talking about the fact that perhaps it should have been played by a Jewish actor if people aren't familiar with the particular programme we're talking about.

I think it's just that's the conversation at the moment. You know, if it was being made now, we would, you know, we all make very different choices depending on the weather that surrounds us culturally, right? Well, thinking of the weather now, I was thinking back to Green Wing, of course, the hospital comedy. And I was looking back at what you said about that at the time and thinking about hospitals now and the NHS. And actually, you said in the background of Green Wing was the idea that the NHS belongs to all of us.

We have a responsibility to make sure it doesn't die on its knees. And actually filming in a hospital, I know, will have had its challenges and also taught you a lot of things as well. Absolutely. It was an enormous privilege to be there. I mean, it was it was it felt awful that people, dying people were being trollied past us. You know, that that felt very intrusive. But you also were there looking through the window onto what people were actually doing to save people's lives. And the number of people who work in the NHS who have said to me, watching Green Wing, it's exactly like that, which is slightly troubling because Green Wing is wild.

Yes. And also you do need, I mean, I know there's lots of elements to that. And again, if people haven't seen it, but, you know, there's also the need for comedy in those dramatic times to be able to get through it. Listen, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to do this play, because I think if people are going to be bold enough to come out to the theatre and to experience live theatre, which I actually think is necessary for life, the whole coming together and experiencing things communally, I think we have lost that necessity. Because thank God we've got all this technology. And that has saved us through these last 18 months. But the coming together and being together and experiencing something at the same time, I think is really important.

And if you're going to also have fun, there's something really precious about that. Well, I had a particular laugh when I went to the toilet in your play last night at halftime because at the interval, they actually have a big picture of you in the women's toilets on one of the cubicles. So I deliberately chose to go in the Tamsin Greg cubicle. How do you feel about that? Well, a friend of mine sent a picture of it when she went to the loo and there was a big sticker on it that said out of order. So I thought, I said, yeah, that totally sums me up. I have to say, I just did chuckle that I was going to be talking to you in the morning. It's a very nice picture, though, and it's very nice you're on the front of a toilet door as well as on the stage.

You have said you have found some of the ways you've been described as reductive, whether it's as a comedy actress because of your roles in Green Wing or episodes, or even worse, funny girl. But I did note in an interview, you said no one had described you in a way that you particularly loved as a descriptor for puffins. So here goes, Tamzin Gregg, are you a bird of comic solemnity? That's such a lovely phrase. I saw it actually on the cover of National Geographic when they did a special on puffins. And, you know, when a puffin becomes the midpoint in any story, I'm always happy.

But it did say puffin, bird of comic solemnity. And there's something in me that resonated with that. It relates. I would be very remiss if I don't say one word to you before you go and leave us on Women's Hour today. The Archers, two words rather. Is still happening. You are still Debbie.

I am not her. So she does exist, but she exists in Hungary. And sometimes I connect with that character orally. And sometimes I don't. At the moment, it's quite difficult to participate. She's off at the moment in Hungary, as you say. Debbie Aldridge, we're talking about, farm manager. But what has The Archers meant to you in your career? Because it has been a bit of a constant. Yeah, well, I went into the show in 1991 for six weeks, apparently. And here we are three decades later, and she's still bobbing in or being talked about mostly. It's, you know, I have an enormous affection for that job that came my way out of the blue. And I also have an enormous affection for radio. I had the enormous privilege of working with Paul Ritter for a 10-part series on radio, which was his last job before he died.

And I think if I hadn't had that experience on radio right at the beginning, I wouldn't have been drawn to produce that um that beautiful piece of work that that's that so illuminates Paul's enormous talent. Of course who played also your husband in in that comedy the sitcom Friday Night Dinner and I know that particular uh radio production meant a lot to his family. Yeah absolutely and was you know so beautiful being uh on you know the drama that was on Women's Hour because it was about people writing letters to one another, connecting who were strangers. And it spoke so profoundly into the pandemic experience of how do we continue to connect when we're being removed from each other because of circumstances, but also because of fear. You know, fear is such a divider. To keep connecting, to keep writing,

to keep gathering together to share in stories, I think it saves lives in a different way. Well, we can definitely subscribe to that. Tamsin Greig, a total bird of comic solemnity. I'll keep going with it. And it's a great line, even if it was about a puffin. Thank you very much for talking to us and starring at the Hampstead Theatre in Peggy for You

about the life of Peggy Ramsey, the agent who got a bit more famous at times than her clients. Lovely to talk to Tamsin Gregg there. Now, there has been a major breakthrough in the campaign for justice for Harry Dunn, the 19-year-old who died when his motorcycle collided with a car near an RAF base in Northamptonshire in August 2019. A woman driving that car, Anne Sekoulis, wife of a US intelligence official, later left the UK

claiming diplomatic immunity. An extradition request for her to be brought to the UK was rejected by the US government. Now yesterday it was announced by the Crown Prosecution Service that the case against Miss Sekulis, the US national charged over Harry's death, is to be heard by a UK court. And, of course, this story is something that we have been following here on Woman's Hour, having had Harry's mother, Charlotte, on the programme the last time in February. Today, I can talk to Rad Seeger, who's an advisor and spokesperson for the family of Harry Dunn. Rad, I imagine it's been a kind of incredible 12 hours after the campaigning

that you have been doing alongside the family to try and see this day in court. Emma, good morning. Absolutely. I certainly haven't slept a wink. And I know Charlotte... Oh, I believe your A phone is going. Someone's getting in touch. Go on. I know Charlotte hasn't either. It's just been, as you say, the most incredible 12 hours. You know, we've been campaigning for this for almost two and a half years. And, you know, the range of emotions last night was just astonishing, as you can imagine. The case is going to be heard at Westminster Magistrates Court in January. Her

lawyers have denied reports that she will attend via video link saying no such agreement has been made. Can you give us a bit more clarity? Yeah, look, I can't really comment on that statement last night. What it actually said, it was no agreement has been reached at this time. But look, you know, you'll know the Crown Prosecution Service very rarely speak publicly about these matters. They confirmed to us that this hearing is happening on the 18th of January. They confirmed that to the media yesterday as well. We certainly intend to be there on the 18th of January.

Now, I don't know what's going on in Virginia. It may just be a matter of semantics or dotting the I's or crossing the T's. But as you can imagine, we've been working very hard at this for two years. So this has been the culmination of a major project. And that hearing is certainly happening next month. At the heart of this has been a family trying to grieve. But the big part of this, as Charlotte said to us back in February, when I was talking to her, she talked about making sure there was some kind of justice. That's the heart of the fight as well. What do you think changed to make this move? Well, look, I've got two theories on that, and it's the right question to ask at this time.

My very firm belief is that when Joe Biden won the general election in the United States last November, that that was a key turning point for us. We knew that he had suffered a similar tragedy. We know that he's certainly more tethered to justice and the rule of law than his predecessor, President Trump, who you remember the parents that I met in the White House. And so we, you know, we got a signal very early on when he took over that he was going to take a different approach to this. And I think just that the delay has been the legal complexities and working out how it's going to happen. The other theory that I have, Emma, is, of course, with your help and your colleagues in the media

and the great British public supporting these wonderful parents, that the United States, in the end, were left with no option. The pressure has just become intolerable for them. Their reputation was just being damaged almost beyond repair. And I think they recognised that this was never going away and they had to reverse their decision. There was in September a resolution in a civil case against Anseculis. That's correct, isn't it? That's right. And so just to remind your listeners, there are two separate legal proceedings. So one was the civil case in Virginia, totally unrelated to the criminal legal proceedings here. So, yes, the parents did reach a resolution in the civil case.

With a financial settlement of some kind. I can't go into details. I'm forbidden from doing that. But the purpose behind that civil case was not to seek financial compensation. At the time when we brought that in 2019, President Trump was refusing to change his decision. So that potentially at that time was the only avenue towards justice open to us. And we did that because we wanted answers. And that's why we brought that Zillow case. So in many ways for me, that's been a complete sideshow because Emma, you've been with us right from the start. This has all been about, you don't get to do this sort of thing and just walk away in a rules-based system and democracy. You know, any of us who are victims of crime

are entitled to see that justice is done. And I, any of us who are victims of crime are entitled to see that justice is done. And I know many of us are parents. I certainly am. And I think those of us who just need to close our eyes and imagine what Charlotte and her family are going through every single day, the living nightmare. But to then have to cope with this denial of justice on top is is just um astonishing and i just want to pay tribute to to everybody in the country today for supporting them through this incredibly difficult time but their their fortitude is just beyond any just certainly beyond my company just just finally i mean you're a man in demand people are trying to get hold of you as we speak which which we can hear uh just in case you're wondering what what those noises are and how are the family today how is charlotte in particular

and she moved so many of our listeners when she was last on the program talking about harry and her memories of him as a as his mother yeah look it's a very difficult question to answer i'm i'm with her you know obviously almost every day the pain is is still etched on her face, as it was the day that she lost Harry. But, you know, I think with the news yesterday, I think there was a release of emotion, which we all know is so important for mental health. And I hope that this will allow her and her family to begin to adjust to their new normal.

Well, Rad Seeger, advisor and spokesperson for the family of Harry Dunn, we will of course follow that case now there has been the permission, certainly on the CPS side of things, for it to proceed and uncover it, of course, like any other case as it comes to the court in January, which is expected with the latest developments on that case with regards to the campaign for justice for Harry Dunn. Thank you for your time this morning. Now, I mentioned right at the beginning of the programme that in a couple of days' time is the 70th Miss World Beauty Pageant final being held in Puerto Rico. Yes, the 70th. It will be broadcast live. There's a reinstated bikini segment after a five-year

hiatus, I'm told. Love it or love it, it's still going strong, despite many protests over the years. And the most famous of those protests happened in 1970. Women's Liberation protesters interrupted the live BBC broadcast at the Royal Albert Hall, throwing flower bombs and chanting, we're not beautiful, we're not ugly, we're angry. So how do some of those women feel, hearing that the competition is still going? Two of the women part of that protest are on the line.

Professor Sally Alexander, professor of modern history at Goldsmiths University of London. And we've got Jenny Fortune, an architect and co-author of Misbehaving Stories of Protest Against the Miss World Contest and the Beauty Industry. Sally, I'll start with you. Good morning. Morning. Thank you for being with us at the 70th Miss World Beauty Pageant Final going ahead. I know it was never against the women themselves, but what do you take from that? How do you reflect on that? How do I reflect on 70 years ago with great difficulty?

I meant, actually, sorry to say, how it's still going. For a lot of people, they may think it was a busted flush, but it's still going and the bikini bit's back. Well, I think women all over the world, you know, still look for opportunities for education and for developing their lives and changing their lives. And being beautiful is one way of doing it. They say, to bring you into this Jenny,

the Miss World competition organisers claim that they are an advocate for female empowerment and provide a platform for women across the globe to raise awareness about the issues they believe in. Jenny, what's your response to that? Well, first of all, I want to say I'm all for beauty. I love beauty in everything. But I'm pretty angry about women being pushed into a straitjacket of what being a woman means. So this vital statistic is still being used, isn't it? If women are being paraded in bikinis, the 36, 24, 36, breast, waist, hips measurements.

That's what they're going to be looking at, I think. Tits and bums. You know, should women really be still being judged in that way? Is that a measure of beauty? Jenny, why did you get involved in the first place in that protest? Which I have to say, we've already had a few messages from people from people saying you know it was one of the most effective and efficient protests ever um well i got involved because um of women's liberation i mean 1968 it was a time of worldwide liberation movements uh south africa anti-Vietnam, independence movements throughout the world in

the colonies. And women's liberation was just a part of that. And suddenly, you know, the idea of liberation opened up all our horizons as women about what we could be. And so I would, you know, I'm an architect now, I would never have dreamt that I could have been an architect when I was growing up as a girl. And it was most definitely the Women's Liberation Movement that opened up all those possibilities for us. Sally, why were you there? And what do you remember about the day actually? You know, what the plan was. Take us back to that moment. Well, Emma, we'd been organising for several weeks beforehand and we were organising secretly. As Jenny has already said, that it was a time of sort of political ferment, you know, that we were, there were many of us active in women's liberation groups in London. I was quite a lot older than Jenny. I'd already been married and divorced and I had a small child

and I was an adult student. And we thought it was, we were very wary of the media, as we called it then. And so, but we thought this program would be be in every kitchen every living room in the land and throughout the world actually and it was viewed by 80 million viewers it was a time when Bob Hope who was the compere the great comedian and deeply controversial figure had just returned from entertaining the troops in Vietnam. And we, most of us in the women's liberation movement were opposed to the Vietnam

war. And so it seemed a very significant opportunity to show how we might be young and beautiful, like the women on the stage, but we we weren't we didn't want to be judged uh in that way and we thought education and job opportunities should be open to everyone so we organized um you know to take our to go into the albert hall to dress up in our final to carry little flower bombs and little mice in our handbags. And at a certain signal, which was going to be a football rattle, when the women were not on the stage, actually, but when the cameras were on Bob Hope, we would follow the signal and try to jump up onto the stage and disrupt the proceedings. Well, the demonstration happened much more quickly than we anticipated because the women holding the rattles got so angry in different parts of the Albert Hall

with Bob Hope and his ghastly jokes which can be watched on YouTube if anyone wants to watch them. The rattle went, the football rattle went off early and we leapt up from our seats scattered all over Albert Hall and ran, rushed towards the stage. And all thought went out of my mind. I mean, I just did what I was prepared to do. And so did Margarita, the woman I was with, sitting next to. And we rushed towards the stage. And then the next thing I remember is being clutched and grabbed by different policemen

and being carried out of the hall. Jenny, it must have been quite the moment. Well, I was arrested and subsequently on trial, so three of us represented ourselves. We spoke out for ourselves. And that was a big moment for me. We were following in the footsteps of the Chicago 11 and the Mangrove 9. We actually went to talk to Barbara Bees and Darkus Howe about how they defended themselves in court. And it was a big turning point in my life.

It really was facing my fears. And I must say turning point in my life. It really was facing my fears. And I must say, it changed my life. Well, a lot of people getting in touch can remember that moment. And it's fascinating to be able to hear from two of you being in that moment. And of course, I can only imagine the impact it's had on the rest of your lives. Professor Sally Alexander, Jenny Fortune, that's all we've got time for today. But again, I hope we can talk some more in the future. And we're talking because it's still happening,

the Miss World Beauty Pageant happening on Thursday, the 70th one. Many more discussions to have. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Sideways is back for another season with stories of incredible feats of endurance. Mountain climbers, we plod onward through avalanches and snowstorms and occasional yetis. I'm Matthew Side and in Sideways you'll hear

stories of bold thinkers and amazing lives. Stories of seeing the world differently. Subscribe to Sideways on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.