Woman's Hour - Actor Vicky Knight, Conscription, Author Lesley Pearse

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

The Shadow Chancellor Rachel Reeves is today delivering a speech in which she’ll promise to ‘reform the Treasury’. If Labour were to win the next General Election, she would be the first female Chancellor the UK has seen. But what would her economic plans mean for women? And how do they compare to the current government’s? Economic Adviser Vicky Pryce and Journalist Lucy Fisher join Emma Barnett to discuss. Bestselling novelist Lesley Pearse has written 31 books and sold over 10 million copies worldwide. But she didn’t start writing until her mid-30s, and it would be another 13 years before her first novel was published. Now Lesley has written an autobiography of her extraordinary life – from a difficult childhood to making shepherd’s pie for David Bowie. She joins Emma to tell her story. Denmark is set to become the latest country to extend military conscription to women. This comes as Russia has warned the war there could spin out of control and expand geographically. What’s it like for women living in the Nordic countries, three of whom have now introduced female conscription? Emma speaks to The Guardian’s Nordic Correspondent Miranda Bryant and Nora Tangseth from the Organisation of Representatives of the Norwegian Conscripts who is in the Norwegian Army.The new film Silver Haze is based on recollections of real events in actor Vicky Knight’s childhood, including when she survived an arson attacked aged just eight. Vicky talks to Emma about blending her real childhood experiences with the narrative of the film, and why she wanted to tell her story. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lottie Garton

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today we are going to try to get to grips with the plans of the woman hoping to be this country's first female Chancellor as Rachel Reeves steps up. The actor and healthcare assistant Vicky Knight will be here to explain why she is reliving the experience of a fire in her grandfather's pub, which left her badly burned and bereaved in a new powerful film. And as Denmark extends military conscription to

women for the first time, we look at the detail and question what this means for equality and security. But I'm also going to be joined today by a novelist who has turned her writing energies and focus towards her own life. Leslie Pearce, who once made shepherd's pie for one young David Bowie and has fond memories of the summer of love in 60s London, has also faced her own share of heartache, having struggled to make ends meet and giving up her firstborn son, whom she had very young indeed. But when reading her book, one of her grandchildren remarked that the details about her recreational drug use were quite a thing to read about your granny, to which Leslie retorted,

I'm not your average granny. Quite. I hope to be able to say that myself perhaps in the future, but this is your opportunity now and today to share things you have discovered about the women in your life that have surprised you how did you find out? what did you find out? you might not want to wish names maybe you do

as always I give that option to remain anonymous but the numbers you need to get in touch when thinking of things you've discovered about the women in your life that you weren't expecting are 84844 that's the text, on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website. You know I always want to hear from you or a WhatsApp message or voice note 03700 100 444. Just watch those data charges and I'll be waiting to hear what you have to say throughout the programme and anything else you want to comment on, as you often do, please do get in touch.

But later today, the woman hoping to be the first female Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, will lay out part of her economic strategy in a high-profile lecture in the City of London, the heart of the capital's financial district. The Mays lecture has long been an opportunity for would-be future Chancellors to establish their economic plans for the country.

In their time, Nigel Lawson, Gordon Brown, George Osborne and even then-Chancellor Rishi Sunak have taken to the podium to deliver it. We don't yet know exactly what Rachel Reeves will say. Some lines out in the paper already. But we do know she's equating the current economic climate to what was inherited by Margaret Thatcher's government in 1979. As we approach a general election, the date still to be decided, what might Rachel Reeves' lens on the world change?

How might her economic outlook specifically impact women's lives? Vicky Price is on the line, former Joint Head of the Government Economic Service from 2007 to 2010 under Labour and now an economic advisor. And we'll hear from Lucy Fisher shortly, Whitehall editor at the Financial Times and host of the FT's Political Fix podcast. Vicky, I'll start with you. Good morning. Good morning. What are you expecting? What are you listening out for in this lecture?

A lot of it has already been pre-leaked or at least pre-said to journalists. We're not yet having an ability to see exactly what she's going to say, but it's not very surprising that it's not going to have an awful lot of detail in it. What she's talking about is pushing the economy to become more productive, looking at the institutions that exist at present, such as the Bank of England and the Office of Budget Responsibility and the Treasury, to see how their activities can be pushed to encourage more growth in the economy and a little bit some of that policy making and having the Treasury, in fact, become more focused itself on growth rather than just a spending department. What would that mean for people's lives, a Treasury Department more focused on growth?

Because that to some may sound like, and I don't want to be too casual about it, but rearranging the deck chairs of state machinery. What does that actually mean? You're quite right about that. And it needs to be properly explained, because what used to happen or certainly happened during the last part of the Labour rule up to 2010 is that there was a pretty powerful unit within the Treasury, which was coordinating what various departments were doing, not just on the spending side, but also the policies they were putting in place in order to achieve various objectives the government had set. Those objectives could be improving the position of children. So child prosperity more generally, which was distributed among loads of different departments.

The question is, how can you bring these various departments together to make sure that one bit of spending or one bit of policy, which may not require spending, but it could just be changing, let's say, the curriculum in schools, would not be offset by something else that presenting to this unit in the Treasury, which was working quite closely to number 10, and making sure that they were monitoring whether some of those objectives were achieved. This is what I think Rachel Rees refers to when she talks about some mission push for various sort of intentions that the government has. So there is a mission which you need to achieve and you need to monitor and measure it. Now, all that was abandoned with the coalition and beyond. And there hasn't been a strong unit that coordinates things. And one of the main ones, or the number one, in fact, was productivity. That was myself the senior responsible officer for.

And that looked at the government departments that mattered, making sure that we all pushed in the same direction. Productivity actually was growing quite fast over that period. So I think that's what she's referring to. And I've also heard Gordon Brown say something similar in an event the other day. So recreating this, even a National Economic Council that was focusing on this. I think that's where they're moving to centralize things a little bit more and and really push various government departments to do the right thing it isn't costly it just means that you have better coordination but i'm still uh you know skeptical about what it might achieve it will take time for that to happen if there is no money actually to do anything major about investing in the economy. I suppose, and awaiting that detail, but we've also heard this phrase,

securonomics, referred to Rachel Reeves' vision, economic vision. Do you understand what that means? It's a very interesting phrase, and she's used it a lot. I've been reading her book, which is The Women Who Made Modern Economics, and securonomics is mentioned a number of times under different guises. So one is to just take away the insecurity that we have right now, which is true. There has been quite a lot of ups and downs in the economy, but of course, a lot of it has been due to geopolitics. But nevertheless, I think what she's trying to say is that we want to give security to families, security to the economy.

We want to make the most of new opportunities. And she mentioned inclusive growth, which at least gives a little bit of a hint that perhaps, you know, women will also be looked at a little bit more as a result of that. But I will quote, it is an approach that I call securonomics because it addresses the cares and concerns of families like the ones she'd been meeting in her constituency. But it doesn't explain how, except using supply side economics. And what that means is basically encouraging firms to invest more, encouraging skills, perhaps, or encouraging the things that will lead to faster growth rather than, since they have no money, spending directly in order to get to that point. So she's talking about partnerships

and ensuring that households are not faced again with the types of cost of living crisis that we've just had. How she'll achieve that, I do not know. Well, thank you for telling us what we do know and also outlining some of the questions, because Lucy Fisher, to welcome you, Whitehall editor for the Financial Times, there have been words like radical and reset and, you know, this is going to be an overhaul today. And yet what we're hearing now, some of it sounds like new Labour coming back with some of the plans potentially of what we do know. But also phrases like secureonomics perhaps don't sound that radical. I don't know. No, I think that's right. I think what Rachel Reeves will be stressing tonight is a sense of restoring stability to the economy. She'll talk about the importance of building on the strength of existing institutions.

And while Labour does have some very interesting reforms around planning system and employment law, I think she will make clear that a stable base for the economy is needed from which those reforms can be introduced. And I think if you step back, this is all about trying to ward off the imminent Tory attack line in the general election that Labour can't be trusted with the public finances, can't be trusted with the keys to the car, and will always be at risk of imposing a tax bombshell on the public. So I think, you know, she's tried to nurture this image of being the iron chancellor in waiting, always ready to say no to colleagues when it comes to requests for new spending in order to try and ward off those attacks and steady nerves after such a period of flux with the Ukraine war,

with the pandemic, the sort of shocks we've seen to energy prices, problems with global supply chains, that now a period of stability and calm would preside under Labour. Is she to be trusted? There have been accusations, I believe they appeared first in your paper in the Financial Times around that book that was just quoted from. There were accusations of plagiarism, which were denied. She did admit she should have done better after it emerged some of her passages of her book were lifted from other sources without acknowledgement. Has that damaged her? Well, I was really interested in how that story played. You know, it was more than around 20 passages that appeared to have been lifted from other works without acknowledgement in this book.

In my mind, the fact that it didn't do her more damage. I mean, it is undeniably incredibly embarrassing for her. It's always brought up at the dispatch box by Jeremy Hunt making little digs at her. You can see her grimace. You know, it's clearly very humiliating. But I'm interested, it didn't damage her more. And I think that speaks to the idea that this is a first offence for her, that she has crafted this image of respectability, of seriousness, sobriety. We know she's a former Bank of England economist with her own credentials on the economy. You know, when we look at similar scandals overseas in Germany, cabinet ministers have previously had to resign over allegations of plagiarism in doctoral theses.

So I was interested that I think, you know, for Rachel Reeves, she built up a level of credit in the bank that meant she was able to survive that row. And she, talking about sort of how she is and who she is as a person, just to get a sense of that for a moment, has embraced, if you're looking for, I'm paraphrasing here, charisma. If you're looking for, you know, sort of rock and roll, this isn't me. She sort of tried to lean into that as part of how she talks about her credibility and who she is as a person in this political role. Yeah, and she's similar to Keir Starmer, the Labour leader in that way. The same criticism is sometimes made of both of them that they're a little on the dull side. Look, I think actually, she'd be pretty fine with that to be seen as, you know, technocratic, albeit lacking pyrotechnics. I think she's more concerned about appearing serious and someone who can be trusted with the economy, someone who exudes competence rather than charismatic, you know, full of energy.

And I think as Starmer's, you know, come up with this line that, you know, the country has tried exciting and charismatic with Boris Johnson, and that didn't work. People, you know, should want a level of boringness in their politicians. Just coming away from that and to the policy, I suppose, and also the fact that she would be the first female chancellor, I'll come back to Vicky in a moment. But is there a different lens that perhaps she may bring? Are there other things that we could talk about? We heard a bit about how families may be impacted, but do you think, you know, a different way of doing things, is that too much of a stretch because she would be the first female Chancellor or is there something in that, Lucy?

I think it remains to be seen. We've heard, you know, from her in the past in interviews, her talking a bit about, you know, the lens that a woman would bring to the job. And, you know, securonomics in some ways is, you know, in one way, she explains, it is about, you know, people having security in their, you know, household, the ability to pay their bills, the security of, you know, decent, highly skilled jobs, and so forth. So there is this sort of domestic element to part of the way that she sort of describes that concept. On the other hand, you know, I think, you know, she wants to be seen

as serious and not pigeonholed. So we haven't seen her kind of fully lean into the idea that, you know, a female chancellor would be totally different from a male chancellor. So I think we need to wait and see. Lucy Fisher, thank you very much for that of the FT. Vicky Price, final word to you on that. We do hear people make the arguments. You will have been, I'm sure, privy to them of, well, if a woman was in charge, it would be different. It would be better. There'll be some saying, especially when it comes to the economy.

We had Liz Truss instated as prime minister for a short while. Some still arguing that if she'd approached her approach differently, maybe it wouldn't have resulted in the way that it did. You know, putting aside that economic argument, what do you make of a different lens with a woman in charge of the country's finances? I think it's important. It does, of course, show to everyone that you can be a woman and be a chancellor as well, which we haven't had so far. We haven't had a woman in charge of the Bank of England, for example, either. And the interesting thing is that quite a lot of the measures that we are now enjoying as women working, we're pushed by women who were in charge of those policies back in the Labour Party time.

Labour government time is really what I meant to say. Having worked with the Labour side of things, I'm sure there will also be some policies that someone will point out to me that also come from the Conservatives. It's my duty to perhaps put that forward at this point, but carry on. No, what I meant is that if you had a woman in charge wherever they may be, whether it's Labour

it just so happened that was the case or whether it's Conservative, it does make quite a difference in terms of the policies that we end up with. So I think it does matter. But I think the most important thing of all is that it just shows that the women have progressed and can have those positions, which so far have been denied to them. And I think that would be a good thing. We will see. We will see. And we will get that detail that you're looking for as an economist, and as someone who's worked in Whitehall and on Whitehall and with the politics side of things.

Vicky Price, thank you very much there. Former Joint Head of Government Economic of the Government Economic Service from 2007 to 2010 under Labour. And some interesting takes, I'm sure, from you as well, as you start to think about perhaps what you would want from a new government. If there were to be one, there may not be. And that's also something to consider as well. But as Rachel Reeves gets ready to do that speech, to conduct that speech, that lecture today, it's interesting to think about what we do know and what we don't.

Now, my next guest has written 31 books, including Georgia and The Woman in the Wood, and has sold over 10 million copies worldwide. But now the novelist Leslie Pearce has turned her attention to telling her own story. And it's a real roller coaster from the heartbreaking loss of her mother when she was a child to eating shepherd's pie with David Bowie, like you do. And a truly remarkable reunion with her son after almost six decades. The book is aptly called The Long and Winding Road.

Leslie, good morning. Good morning. Lovely to have you here. And you do read like you've had a few lives. Everybody says that, yes. I always say more ups and downs than a well bucket. Yeah, well, it's in there and it's all in there. How did you find, first of all, writing about your life?

It was not as easy as I thought it was going to be. I thought because it was all in my head it would be easy peasy. It's not, because some things are shameful, some things you feel sad about, some things actually you get distraught about, and things that you thought were very funny at the time don't seem that funny when you write them down. The case of where we fed the cannabis cakes to the policeman,

which I thought was hilarious at the time, doesn't look that funny as an adult. But did seem, I'm sure, quite amusing when you were studying there. I hope it changed his life. I mean, you do have a very difficult start. And when you talk about everything changing in your life when your mother died and what happened, what have you shared about that? Well, I don't remember, I understand I was only three, but the rumour has it, or the story goes,

that we were out in the garden in the snow in Kent. It was January and we hadn't gotten coats on. And the neighbour said, where were our coats? And my brother said, we can't reach them. And she said, where's mummy? And he said, she's asleep, but she's been asleep rather a long time. So the neighbour came and found out where we were. My father was away at sea.

He was in the Royal Marines. And I don't really know what happened after that because I was too young to remember. But not long after it, I was shipped off to an orphanage in London in Grove Park and Michael was sent to one in Gloucestershire we weren't even together but that's the Catholic Church for you and apparently I've discovered recently that my my mother's relatives came over from Ireland to sort of get us and bring us home there and when they weren't allowed both the British government and the Catholic Church stood together and said, no, they're not being taken away.

Better to put a kid in an orphanage and to let it go to a family who really wanted children. But that's the logic of that sort of era. You know, we are talking about 1948, not last week. And people did strange things at that time. But I knew, I was oblivious to all that. And for three years in the orphanage, I don't think I even knew what a brother,

having a brother meant. And then suddenly one day this lady appeared and said she was going to be my new mother. And I thought, whoop-de-doo, that's fantastic. That's what I've been waiting for. I was sort of six then, and she was coming back for me the next day. And the nun's final stroke of nastiness

was to give me a good hiding that night saying that she'd said I smelt um apparently I had a so say weak chest and I had this chalene poultice around my chest which they ripped off and the wheels on my back my stepmother was absolutely appalled by and she was an ex-army nurse so you can imagine how bad they were for her to say that my jumper was stuck to them the following night when she helped me undress but having said that I got back home my stepmother had a little

girl called Selina who was had been she'd kind of been a foster mother to her but she wanted to adopt her and eventually she was adopted by my father and stepmother and they also adopted a baby. So there were four of us then in this little thing.

But I can remember thinking it was absolutely great. I'd got a brother, I'd got a sister. There were no nuns. It was just great. So up until I was about 11, it was pretty nice really being just with them. My stepmother was very, very strict. She was very Victorian in her attitude.

She didn't know a hundred things you could do with a pound of mints. I think, you know, she'd been an officer in the army and used to being waited on, so it must have come hard for her. Perhaps my dad was a bit boring. I don't know. But it was all right until I was about 11. Then we moved to London and then it started to get worse. Why it suddenly got worse, perhaps she just realised her chances had all gone for something better in life

than looking after other people's children. I don't know. I give her the benefit of the doubt there. I've gone full circle with her, though. I realised that without her guidance, because she got me reading and enthusiastic about books. And in fact, when I got my first short story published, nobody was a bigger fan than her. So I've resigned her into a more nicer status.

You know, she's not the wicked stepmother anymore. She's somebody that had a huge influence on me. And my brother went away to boarding school. And if it hadn't been for her pushing him and realizing how clever he was that wouldn't have happened either so so there are things there were there were good things yes and of course I had Selena who's still around now my brother sadly has died but I've still got Selena I mean you do go through a lot of different periods in and not quite in order here but but I did mention Shepherd's Pie with David Bowie.

Yes, that was much later. Can we go there? Yes, of course. Because, I mean, you just covered something that was difficult, but also with some redemption, and I know we're going to talk about your son as well, but Shepherd's Pie. Yes, everybody always wants to know about that.

That particular space band. You have to understand at this time, John, I was married to a musician, a trumpet player, and he was in a band called Samson, who were very, very good sort of jazz rock things. And at the bottom of this cinema tour was this chap called David Bowie who nobody had ever heard of. While he was on that tour, Space Oddity came out

and it did shoot up to about number 13, but it wasn't mega, mega, mega. Anyway, he and John became really good friends and he used to get David Light going with David in his little post office van to the gigs. Rather than go in the coach, they were all supposed to go in. I suspect mainly because they could just roll up joints in there. Are you allowed to say that at the BBC?

You've said it. I think you are. Come on, we're the home of also Radio 1, Six Music. There's a lot of other places here. Whatever the reason for it, they became friends and one day he came back to our little flat. When I say flat, it was one room and the kitchen was in a cupboard and I'd made shepherd's pie and he stayed for some and I was pregnant then with my daughter who's now 54,

so that's how long ago it was. And I'd bought this sort of wicker crib and didn't clean it properly and just painted it and the paint wouldn't dry so I was made then making a cover to go over it because you know I mean anybody else would have cleaned the paint off wouldn't they but not me I was taking the easy way out and he wrote some words down on a piece of paper and I didn't think anything of it at the time but then four years later Hunky Dory came out which in those four years he became a huge star but there was something about him from the

moment I clapped eyes on him that you you knew he was going to go somewhere um he was funny um absolute delight to have around and then I read the the song a couple of Coupes and I realised that was that. We bought some clothes to keep you warm and dry and a funny little crib in which the paint won't dry. I mean, he, you know, some people say he wrote it for his son but come on, would he have bought a second-hand crib and tried to paint it? I doubt it.

No, that's amazing. He must have had tingles when he saw that. I did and I play it quite often because there's other things, a trumpet to blow. John was a trumpet player, and we were living in a lover's story at the time. We were madly in love with one another, and we were expecting our first baby,

and we thought everything was going to be wonderful, and stardom was just around the corner. Sadly, it didn't happen for John. But at that time, it was a moment of great excitement yes and and also I believe he came around with two pineapples up his top yes yes on another day he bought me two pineapples he had a pink cashmere sweater or like you do angora sweater jumper you know being a woman which was very very funny yes so as I say there's a lot of ups and downs in this book, aren't there? And when I mentioned at the beginning of the programme what you said, I'm not your typical granny to one of your grandchildren when they were looking through and saw some of the tales. But some of our listeners are getting in touch about things that they've learned about female relatives that they weren't expecting, which I'll come to shortly.

There's some brilliant stories coming in. But having it all in there is, I suppose, an education your family I think that's really why really why I wrote it I wanted them because when you tell your children stuff about the past their eyes glaze over they don't they're not really interested it's only when they get to be 40 plus they start being a bit more interested and I thought well I don't really want to leave this mortal coil without them knowing why and how things happened. And I'm not overlooking your work, the fact you became quite late a writer and you were known, I believe, as Persistent Pierce, making sure you got published. And that was, you know, you describe also knowing you'd found it, the thing you should be doing, and it started to work. I ought to have realised a lot earlier,

because even as a child I was telling kids stories in the playground, on wet playgrounds, I would make something up. One famous one was that I was living, I'd run away from home and I was living under a hedge, and I used to talk about the animals that came up and spoke to me in the night, cows and things. No-one ever questioned why I had clean white socks on and pressed hair ribbons, if that was the case. They didn't need to put that together.

Some people even bought me pieces of cake and things because I was supposed to have been there for weeks. It was like an ongoing serial. But, I mean, that is a key part of it and people will know your writing if they're familiar with your stories and followed your work. But the heart of your story that you you've just shared in this book is the fact that you were in a really difficult financial place when you had your firstborn when you had your son well and it's a remarkable story where you do end up reuniting but why don't you

just tell us a bit about what was going on well for one thing people don't realize that 1964 it was almost impossible to keep a child if you were a single mum and you didn't have any support from anybody, as I didn't. I was determined to buck the trend. So I went off to the mother and baby home and said, right from the beginning, I'm going to keep my baby. And they all said, no, no, you won't be able to do that. But I did, and I wrote away after he was born.

We were there for six weeks after the birth. He was called Warren in those days. He's Martin now, but we'll call him Martin so you know who I'm talking about. Anyway, I kept writing to people, put an advert, I think, in The Lady, saying I wanted a job and a home for my child, and various people wrote to me,

including this rather odd brigadier and his wife, which, because they sounded sensible, I went for. They wanted a housekeeper down in Heathfield in Sussex and it was the worst thing I could have done. They were do-gooders who, the moment I was there, they were leaning over the cot, well she was anyway, and saying, you poor unfortunate child and things like that. I mean, I was breastfeeding him.

I was totally committed into keeping him so I kept him to his four months. They threw me out one day, having said I was seeing a man in the village, which was absolute rubbish because they made me work so hard that it was like being Cinderella, really, polishing all their fantastic silver. They were a very, very odd couple and old. You can imagine it was pretty nasty and it was autumn, spiders everywhere. It was one of those things I'd rather not think about anyway they threw me out one rainy day and told me to go I had nowhere to go at all and I rang a girl that I was at the mother and baby home with that I got on well with and she immediately said I'm coming down to get you with my dad

and they sure enough they turned up in the van and she took me back to her place. But she needed somebody to share the flat with her that was going to pay half the rent. The social services wouldn't give you rent unless you had a lease in your name. You couldn't just say, I'm staying with so-and-so. So I stayed there and I was getting about £4 a week from the National Assistance, as it was called then.

And one morning I just woke up and I looked down at him and I thought you're growing out of all your clothes I haven't got any money to buy anymore this is just going to get worse and worse and worse and so in that day again it was pouring with rain it's funny how you look back people remember nice weather and terrible weather and that was a terrible day I put him in the carry cot and I walked across Regent's Park where I knew the National Adoption Society was because I'd been there with another girl. And I walked in the door and said, I want to have my baby adopted. And they looked at me like I had three heads and said, we can't just take him. I said, no, I didn't mean that. I said, I just knew that if I waited while I wrote to you, I would start changing my mind. So I wanted to say, this is what I'm going to do.

Anyway, as it happened, they had two couples that were absolutely perfect for him. So just before Christmas, I had to hand him over. And that was absolutely awful because he was a big, jolly, smiley baby. He was one of the most placid babies I've ever come across, ever. And I was standing in this little office and they came and took him. I thought they were just going to give him a cuddle and the next thing I knew they shut the door behind them and locked it so I couldn't get out. And I screamed and kicked and everything. It was awful, absolutely awful. I'll never forget a

moment of that day. But the old social worker that was with me said just shut up Leslie and listen and from the distance I could hear this peel of happy laughter and she said that laughter will sustain you and it has to a certain extent because I knew the woman she'd gone to was a good person and as I know now she died when Martin was, but I know she was a very good mum, and he's evidence that he had a very good upbringing and I did do the right thing for him. Not for me, but for him I did. Because you've met?

Yes, yes. Well, our meeting is absolutely miraculous. Because of the pregnancy, my relatives, my mother's family in Ireland, I never got in touch with them because I didn't want them to know I'd had a baby, because I knew that as Catholics, they'd all be horrified. So I didn't go anywhere near them. And eventually, when I became a successful novelist under the name of Leslie Pierce, they were actually reading my books back in Roscommon in Ireland, but not knowing that I was a relative. But about three years ago, before lockdown, a cousin found out. I was speaking on Radio Roscommon or Radio Era,

whatever. And I said that I had relatives in Roscommon and one of these people heard me. And the next thing is I get an email from one of them saying, this is marvellous, you know, we must meet up. And it just so happened I was in Dublin one of them saying, this is marvellous, you know, we must meet up. And it just so happened I was in Dublin one night when I got this letter and we met immediately and had dinner together. And she said, you must come to this party. And we always have a party in the summer in Roscommon where all the family members come. Well, then lockdown happened. So that was knocked on the head. But anyway, when lockdown was over, they got in touch and said, please come, we're really wanting to see you. And I arrived. And they said, you're not the only honoured guest today.

Your second cousin from America is coming as well. So his name was John Glynn, my mother's name was Glynn. And I'm sitting at a table with him chatting, and I've got a book of old photographs, and I'm showing at a table with him chatting and I've got a book of old photographs and I'm showing him a few things and it turned out that Martin had delved into my background and he was looking for Leslie Sargent that was but he ended up with just blank ends, everything fizzled out. I'd moved too many times, changed my name too many times,

he couldn't find out anymore. All he knew was that name, Leslie Sargent. Anyway, meanwhile, he had done a DNA test. Not actually to find me. It was a bit of a joke between him and his girlfriend. She said he had Eskimo blood because he always works in cold countries.

And they did this DNA test. And who should come on there but this John Glynn in Palm Beach. So they did know more and get in the car and drove over to see him from Texas, as you do, all those miles. But of course John Glynn said, well, I've never heard of a Leslie Sargent, but we're going to Ireland in a few weeks and we'll look and see if we can find out for you. So there I am sitting at the table with them and there was a picture of my father.

And I said, oh, he's of no interest, apart from the fact his name was Sergeant Sergeant. Because I always tell people that because it's funny. It is. And he sort of looked at me a bit oddly and then scuttled away. And I thought, oh, he just thinks I'm weird, you know. I'll go and talk to someone who doesn't think I'm weird. No, but he's realised, hasn't he?

Yes. And, of course, he went and spoke to one of the other cousins and she said, for God's sake, don't tell her now what it is that you found her son because she'll cry all day and she won't enjoy the party. So tell her tomorrow before she goes back to Dublin. So over breakfast they got out photographs and everything they'd got from Martin

and there he is, he was coming up for 58 then and I just couldn't believe it it was the thing I'd hoped and prayed for all my life really I can't say I thought about him every day but certainly at least once a week and certainly on his birthdays I celebrated each birthday by sitting there crying and then suddenly you're confronted with this he's not only there but he wants to see me. And just, I mean, I wish we could have the rest of the hour, but we don't. But what was it like to meet him?

Are you able to just say? All we did was hug each other and we said nothing that made any sense at all. But we've since had time together. And we, I mean, I still want a million. I've got a million questions I want to ask. You know, everything of like, when did he learn to swim? You know, when his first tooth came out, stuff that he probably doesn't even know himself. So we just have to live on a day to day basis.

But he is coming, he's moving to Paris next, sometime this year. So he's getting closer all the time. I went and spent two weeks with him in Texas amazing and my children all think it's wonderful because they've got a big brother my girls think you've got three girls so yeah yes wow I mean it is a story we've given you a good insight there thank you for talking to us well thank you for having me um very emotional I'm sure to to think of some of those things and amazing that you you found him or he found you in this way and in that way

Leslie Pierce the book's called The Long and Winding Road and amazing stories are just coming in one for instance Andrew says when we were astonished to learn my mother was the model for the nude statue in the fountain in the middle of Sloane Square in London wow another one here I'd found when I was talking to my grandmother when

she was in her 80s, I learned she spent much of her life with multiple partners or lovers, as she put it, whilst married, now known as polyamory. And so it goes on. We will get to some more of these stories if I can shortly. But back in January, you may remember we spoke on Woman's Hour about the possibility of women and men being conscripted into our military here in the UK after calls by the head of the British Army for a citizen army, potentially. The idea of it, I remember, provoked very strong responses from you. With some of you annoyed, we would even debate it on Women's Hour, as you feel, and you were saying, you feel it should be women who remind the world it can be different

and we don't need to secure power through force. There was also a strong theme of people saying they wouldn't do it and they were fearful of it and others saying they would have to support it and they would be fine with it and it's about stepping up. So there's a lot of debate. But while this move is unlikely for the moment in the UK, it is a reality elsewhere in Europe, especially in the Nordic countries. In Sweden and Norway, women and men are already subjected to conscription.

But last week, Denmark announced it is going to extend its conscription for the first time to include women. Denmark, a founding NATO member, has been a supporter of Ukraine, a crucial supporter during Russia's invasion. And it comes as Russia warns that the war there could develop uncontrollably and expand geographically. Joining me now from Stockholm, Miranda Bryant, The Guardian's Nordic correspondent, and in Oslo, Nora Tungsted, a member of the armed forces in Norway who was conscripted at the age of 19

and is part of the organisation of representatives of the Norwegian conscripts. Miranda, welcome to the programme. Let me start with you. Tell us a bit more about why now with this step. Well, in Denmark, they announced these plans last week. They still have to be passed by the Danish government. But it's saying the prime minister said that she wants full equality between the sexes and plans to call up 5000 conscripts a year from 2026.

And yeah, this is a direct result of Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the heightened military situation across Europe. And how has this gone down? Has there been a big reaction to this? Has it been expected? It has been largely positive across kind of politically and the media kind of being presented as this sort of positive step for gender equality. But it's definitely not without dissent.

Denmark's oldest women's organisation, the Danish Women's Society, is strongly opposed. And they say while they support voluntary conscription, as it has been for women until now, they don't support it being mandatory. And there's a sense of hypocrisy that gender equality is being used to promote women going to war. I was speaking to its vice president, Helena Glesborg Hansen, yesterday, and she was saying,

you know, war is something that's often used to inflict violence on women and that forcing women into war is not a forward step for equality. And she said the military workplace isn't ready yet for women to be treated equally. Interesting. Okay. Yeah, I was alluding to that sort of view, which I remember coming in very strongly when we talked about this. Let me bring in Nora, who, as I mentioned, was conscripted at 19 in Norway. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. Hello. What was your reaction to being drafted? Well, first of all, we have something called the session, which is some sort of qualifying tests with various physical and mental tests and also a health check. After that, I was asked what I thought about being drafted. I was not opposed to the idea, but I certainly didn't aim to get in either.

I think I looked at it as an opportunity to contribute to the country in a meaningful way, as well as getting to know myself better and testing my own limits. But of course, I was also a bit sceptical because in the military, women carry the same backpacks as men and wear the same equipment as men. And as a woman under 1.6 metres tall, I was a bit worried or nervous about how it was going to go. And how has it been for you, the whole experience?

I think it's been a very positive experience. I think in the start, of course, it was an adjustment. But now I'm a conscripted journalist. I get to use what I'm good at and what I'm interested in. Yeah, I feel like it's been a great experience. And in terms of what the relationship's like between the women and the men, how does all that work? we live together in rooms of between four to eight people. And I think that that makes the difference between women and men much smaller. Most of my friends that I've gotten here in the military are men and it doesn't feel like there's

like there's a difference between us of course we acknowledge that men have more muscles than women but I've only experienced that as if if I'm struggling there's some always someone there who will help and and do you I mean you know you're at a young age and a young stage in your working life, but is the concern there about Russia and about what's going on? I mean, how is that day to day, living and working with that? Well, in my job as a journalist, I travel a lot and meet other conscripted soldiers in Norway. I also work with spreading information and awareness around the situation, the safety policy situation uh and so i definitely feel like it's a part of my day-to-day life but i also think that for many people uh both civilians and people who are in

the military it feels a bit distant even though the war is so close. But it's such a big situation and it's a lot to take in. So, yeah. Yeah, well, it's fascinating to get your take. Just a final thought, Nora, from you before I go back to Miranda. What do you say to women who say this is not a step forward? This is not a good thing for women to be conscripted. This is not, you know, where we see wars sometimes doing the very worst things that can happen to women, of course, as well to men, but it's not a step forward for equality to see this for women. Well, I think that we need to

remember what it is that we are protecting. We are not in the military because we want to go to war. We are in the military because we are protecting our democratic values. I think it is very easy to take these values for granted. But I also think that with the situation that we have now, we see how fragile everything is. Yes. Miranda, just a final take from you. With this potentially going through in Denmark, I mean, do you think it will significantly change society there,

this change for women? I think it's hard to say at the moment because, well, first of all, the numbers are going to be quite small initially. But also, I guess it depends how people are kind of what their expectations are of it and what it's really like. Again, from the Danish Women's Society yesterday, she was suggesting that, well, she was surprised that so many young women that she saw interviewed on TV, etc., were so enthusiastic. be like and what the equality was like within it isn't up to date with how it actually is and that actually they might you know come across quite a lot of gender inequality within the military. Well that's interesting also to hear women on television being enthusiastic as well. Miranda Bryant thank you for painting that picture the Guardian's Nordic correspondent as Denmark has announced it has to be passed, as was mentioned, that it's going to extend its conscription for the first time to include women.

Let me tell you about a woman who's just walked into the studio, Vicky Knight, who is in a new film. And it's based on when she was having a sleepover with her cousins above her grandfather's London pub at the age of eight when a fire broke out. She was rescued by a pub regular named Ronnie Springer, but her two cousins, Christopher and Charlie, did not survive. Neither did Ronnie, who died trying to save them. More than 20 years later, nobody has been found guilty of causing that fire, which investigators believe was an arson attack. Now, Vicky, in this

new film, Silver Haze, is its name, is retelling the story of the attack, as well as some other moments from her childhood. There are real elements blended with fictional elements as well. It's Vicky's second film alongside the director, Sasha Polak. The first was Dirty God. You may have seen that in 2019, which Vicky starred in and was the first of her acting experience, I believe. And Vicky, you also work as a healthcare assistant. I do. Yeah, that's correct. So a couple of jobs on the go. Maybe we'll get to that if we can. But it's a really horrific experience to have gone through in your own life. And now in a film, what made you want to relive

that? It wasn't in the aspect of me wanting to relive it. When we did the tour of Dirty Gods, we travelled the world. I travelled the world with Sasha Pollack, the director, and as we was on our journey, I was just telling her bits and pieces about my life story. She met my family, and I think it was on the plane to Australia, she said, I think we should do another film together but let's base it loosely upon your life story

so that's where the idea of making the film come from and you know Sasha saw me over the years trying to get justice and trying to fight for my family and get answers you know because obviously no one's been

held accountable for it. Yeah, and that's where the inspiration come from. I'm going to play a clip from the film where you're speaking about the fire, describing what you saw while you were trapped inside. Let's have a listen. I thought he was sweating, but he wasn't. He was melting.

Like a candle. And he tried opening the windows but the pub, it was such an old pub that the windows wouldn't smash. My feet were burning so I was standing on tiptoes. I couldn't shut my mouth because it was so hot. Then he grabbed a chair, smashed a window, and put his head out and took a massive gasp of air and shouted down, ''Someone catch her. ''

''Someone catch her.'' And he picked me up. And he said to me, I think it's going to be all right. That clip from Silverhays, courtesy of BFI Studios. Vicky, who were you talking about there? So I was telling my co-star, Esme Creed-Miles, or Florence in the film,

about what actually happened that night. And I was talking about the man that saved my life, Ronnie Springer. He, you know, unfortunately he passed away six weeks after his injuries but, you know, he's... That whole scene in Silver Haze is so true to life. I mean, that's exactly what happened

and not many people get to hear the ins and outs of the story because it just takes too much out of me to keep reliving that particular night and their memories. And in Silver Hayes, I do tell Florence, you know, I remember seeing him melting in front of me like a candle. But obviously as an adult, that was a child's way of thinking but you know I now understand that he was actually his skin was melting off and you know I remember the whole fire like it was yesterday and you know I just yeah it's it's yeah it's not a nice thing

to keep going back to but yeah I mean and as you say you're you're still trying to find answers yes yeah yeah I mean I've I've you know I go to where the pub was every year and put a shrine there and put balloons up for the boys um for Charlie and Christopher that passed away and you know to be able to put my story into a movie is just incredible, really. I haven't really got any words for it. I'm just so grateful and so thankful to Sasha, the director, allowing me to be able to do that. Also in the film, my real family play...

My sister plays my sister and my brother and my nephew as well. So to have them on set and to have them you know have a little bit of happiness injected in back into the family is just just means the world to me you talked about skin there and and um melting and you sustained significant burns yes i did 33 of my burns full thickness um so yeah i was in hospital for three months um and then as soon as I got discharged I wanted to go back to school um you know I was still bandaged up when I went back to school I did half days and then that's when the bullying started and yeah um school and college wasn't great at all you know I was beat up pretty much every day walking to school

because one particular girl didn't like the way I looked. No-one just understood me, no-one understood the story. So it was really, really difficult going to school and college. And how has it been living as a young adult with significant scarring? It's difficult because I'm also a gay woman. So to have them to be visibly different and to also be a gay woman growing up was very, very difficult because back then social media wasn't really a thing.

So there wasn't really much support or charities out there that I could lean on. And the only support I had really was my mum we just dealt with it together it was difficult growing up and the only thing that really I could say that saved my life was doing film especially with my first film Dirty God

that's based on an acid attack a young mother in London who was involved in an acid attack and before that I didn't want to live I was suicidal I didn't want to be I didn't want people to look to look at me and it wasn't until I see Dirty God for the first time in cinemas I see someone else but with my scars and that's the moment I realized hang on a minute there's nothing wrong with me this whole you know thing I had in my head wasn't true I wasn't a monster I wasn't you know just known as the girl with scars I'm Vicky you know and that's that's how I see myself now is I will never ever cover my scars again so it's give me so much confidence and you know if I could be a voice for people that haven't found their voice yet then you know I've achieved something in life well also the the

British Film Institute the BFI has pledged not to fund films where facial scarring is used to represent immorality and has cited the film Dirty God your film as an inspiration that must have been quite a moment yeah I mean when I got um you know I've always when especially when I was in school and that or even like for example I did work experience in a nursery and you know parents would look at me as if I had a disease they would snatch their kids off of me because they think their kids were going to catch it and things like that and you know I was always known as the the bad guy or i'd done something wrong to get my scars i was always looked at as a villain and not a victim or a survivor you know and the fact that the bfi has has pledged that it's just amazing you know because

thinking of it like deeply i'd you don't really i didn't really think of it in the way of having scars would make you look like a bad guy but thinking back to like for example like the Lion King the bad guy is called Scar you know and I'm just glad that you know it's not going to be the bad guys are going to have something wrong with them because you could be the most beautiful person in the world but be a serial killer you know and be the bad guy yeah and be the bad guy yeah i did mention you um you have another job so a health care assistant is that right yeah and uh what's that like doing that and and how does that work for you and managing

also to have this other life as an actor um i mean i've been doing the job for coming up to 11 years now. And I absolutely love my job. And I just feel like I can give something back that, you know, that I was given. I was, you know, the NHS saved my life. So I just feel like I owe them. And, you know, as I said, in both jobs, in my hospital work and in my acting, I'm helping people in different ways. So with the hospital, you know, I might go in one shift and help to save a life, for example, or even make someone smile. Whereas in my films, I've had people come up to me

and say, this film saved my life, or you've changed the way I see life. And so to me, I just feel like both them jobs is where I belong you know the two sort of have a coming together yeah in terms of what you do I mean you um it's it's also you have worked I believe or work at one of the hospitals which treated you for burns with burns as a child so that that must be also a very powerful connection yeah yeah I mean it's it's a very rewarding um I don't actually work there now i've moved on to another hospital that also received me as when the fire first happened

that was the receiving hospital then i got transferred to the burn unit so i actually work at the the other hospital um so i just you know to have nurses and doctors that remember me as this eight year old child that was severely burnt now to be the tables have turned and now I'm helping them. And, you know, I actually looked after one of the police officers that was on my case that was on the case right from the beginning. Like one of the first police officers that was on scene. And then I ended up looking after him in the hospital. And it wasn't only, I just asked him, what does he do for work? And he said he was a retired police officer. And he just looked at me and went, oh my God, you're that little girl.

And it was just amazing because, you know, he looks after me and my family and I was looking after him. And it's just, you know, them special connections. That's incredible. Yeah, it's just... I mean, just to come full circle before we come to an end here with the film. Are you hoping, are you thinking there could be an answer from the point of view of who started that fire? And how much would that mean to you and your family? I mean it would be very very nice to to get justice and you know to have the answers and to allow Christopher, Charlie and Ronnie to actually rest but you know I'm just hoping with

Silver Hayes it's not for more justice and answers it's for more for people just to look up to me and think if she can do it I can do it you know because I've come so close to giving up and you know there's got to be things in place that keeps people going and I've luckily found that in film so I hopefully people can can watch Silver Haze and you know because it doesn't just touch on the subject of trauma. It touches on the subject of cancer, of being gay, of homophobic abuse, sexual assault. So it touches on a lot of subjects. So I hope people that have gone through them kind of things

can look at the film and just take away the strength and courage. It's called Silver Haze. Vicky Knight, thank you for talking to us. Thank you for your company today, as always. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. Thank you for talking to us. Thank you. Thank you for your company today, as always. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

Hi, I'm India Rackerson, and I want to tell you a story. It's the story of you. In our series, Child, from BBC Radio 4, I'm going to be exploring how a foetus develops and is influenced by the world from the very get-go. Then, in the middle of the series, we take a deep look at the mechanics and politics of birth, turning a light on our struggling maternity services and exploring how the impact of birth on a mother affects us all.

Then we're going to look at the incredible feat of human growth and learning in the first 12 months of life. Whatever shape the journey takes, this is a story that helps us know our world. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.