Woman's Hour - Adoption, Protesting Indian Wrestlers, Naoise Dolan

Episode Date: May 23, 2023

According to a new report from Adoption UK nearly half of families with adopted children aged 13 to 25 say they are at ‘crisis point’ or ‘facing severe challenges’. Author, Becky Brooks, discusses her report alongside Clare, a parent of adopted children.Indian women wrestlers have been living on the streets of Delhi in protest after they accused their sport's federation's top official of sexual harassment and abuse. There is just three months until the World Championships and the Asian Games when ordinarily these women would be focussed on intense training. Nuala discusses the situation with Divya Arya, Women's Affairs Journalist at BBC Delhi. A new production of Rigoletto opens next week at Opera Holland Park. Described as “a propulsive tragedy of toxic masculinity and unfettered power”, the director, Cecilia Stinton, explains why she has set it in an Oxbridge-style college post World War I, and the relevance of the story to a modern audience. The soprano, Alison Langer, who plays the role of Gilda, also joins Nuala and performs live in the studio.New research has found that women are twice as likely to die within 30 days of a heart attack compared with men. To explore why women continue to appear more vulnerable after having a heart attack Nuala is joined by consultant cardiologist Dr Sonya Babu-Narayan.The Happy Couple is the second novel by the acclaimed Irish novelist Naoise Dolan, whose debut Exciting Times was longlisted for the Women’s Prize for Fiction. It follows a young couple, Celine and Luke, in the run-up to their wedding and explores the creeping doubts they have about each other, marriage and monogamy. Naoise joins Nuala in the studio.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. A new report out today by Adoption UK looks at how families with adopted children between the ages of 13 and 25 are doing. Nearly half say they are really struggling to get the support they need. So I'll speak to our guests in just a moment who have personal experience of that. And I'd also like to hear your experience. If you have adopted children or if you were a person who was adopted, please do get in touch about how it was for you during the teenage or the early adult

years. What did you need? What did you get? And how would you advise others in that situation? You can text the programme. The number is 84844. At BBC Women's Hour is where you'll find us on social media or you can email us through our website.

For WhatsApp messages or indeed a voice note, that number is 03700 100444 That's coming up in just a moment. Also today, Indian female wrestlers, they are protesting in extreme heat in Delhi following allegations of sexual

abuse and harassment of their teammates. Now the allegations have been denied by the Wrestling Federation's President. This Me Too protest comes at a crucial time in their training for both world championships and also future Olympics. So we're going to be in Delhi to hear what has been happening. Also today, the Irish novelist Nisha Dolan.

Now you may have read her first book, Exciting Times, but now her second novel, The Happy Couple, is out. And it has Nisha's unique take on dating for millennials, where marriage fits into the picture if it does, and also what happens to your past loves as you commit to a new one. So a lot to think about and talk about there,

which there also is in a new production of Verdi's Rigoletto. That's at Holland Park Opera. So this time it's set in an Oxbridge-type college in the 1920s, but many of the themes of power and abuse, they are, as we're talking about on this programme,

just as relevant in 2023. So we'll have the director, Cecilia Stinton, in. Also a performance for you from soprano Alison Langer with the pianist Katie Wong, so do stay with us for that. And also we'll speak to a cardiologist about the findings. You might have seen this headline that women are twice as likely to die after a heart attack than men. So a lot coming up. Stay with us if you can. But let

me turn to adoption. Since 2019, around 15,000 children in the UK have been adopted from the care system. Most are placed for adoption because they cannot safely live with any member of their birth family. Over three quarters have experienced neglect and abuse in those earliest years. But despite their vulnerability according to new research out today

from Adoption UK nearly half of families with adopted children aged between 13 to 25 say they are at crisis point or facing severe challenges amid a lack of support. And what about this statistic? 58% of adopted young adults accessed or attempted to access mental health services last year. Well, I'm joined now to talk about these findings in more detail with Clare. It's not her real name, I will say. She is a mother of two now adult adopted children.

And we also have Becky Brooks from Adoption UK who authored the report. You're both so welcome. Becky, let me start with you. Let's turn to that nearly half, 46% of families with adopted children between 13 and 25 feeling they're at crisis point. Why is that? And I believe you have also an adopted child. Yes, I do. Good morning. The story is quite complex. As you've already said, the majority of children who will go on to be adopted will have experienced abuse and neglect in their early years. And this can cast a long shadow over a person's life. And I think when we're looking at the teen years, these can be a tricky time for any child,

the onset of adolescence, children exploring and discovering their own identities, their individual identities as a person. If you're adopted, there's a whole layer of difficulty on top of that. You may not know all the details of your past history you're trying to establish your identity but you're in a family which is not your birth family you may or may not have some contact with birth relatives that can also be difficult to manage at times and it's more it's more common these days for children to retain some level of contact with birth relatives. But the teens is also a time when unsolicited or unplanned contact with birth relatives can take place. Our survey finds that each year, approximately a fifth to a quarter of 13 to 18 year olds will have this kind of unplanned and often unsupported contact with birth relatives.

That's a high number. Let's just stop with that for a moment. So a fifth to a quarter would have unsolicited contact with the birth relatives. That's a high number let's just stop with that for a moment so a fifth to a quarter would have unsolicited contact with the birth family. Yeah but I mean it's kind of to be expected almost in this age of social media and easy access to information it's quite normal for for a child of that age to want to go looking and to find out and often they can find out and they do. But is the question of course then to be raised is what's in place to help when that happens? Absolutely. If there are any repercussions, you know, whether it's emotional or logistical. Absolutely.

And what we find in our research is that where these kind of contact arrangements have been put in place with support, it's been a planned situation. Everybody's worked together to establish the contact. The outcomes are better and the relationship lasts into adulthood. Whereas when it happens unplanned, unsupported, out of the blue on social media, the outcomes are less likely to be as positive for everybody. Let me turn to you, Claire. I mentioned you're the mum of two adopted children, now adults.

How do you remember that time? We're particularly talking today about children, young adults between 13 and 25. I remember really for me, the struggles were more within the school system and having a child in school who wasn't understood or had any of their needs really acknowledged through adoption was incredibly difficult to manage. And it was something we had to navigate our way through with some help. But with no help from the school, it just sort of fell apart and broke down, really. Is that, I'm wondering when you adopted those children, what did you expect in terms of support? And perhaps at what age did you adopt them? Just to give us an idea. I had them both when they were very young. I've got two. So they were both very young. And support then was more for parents.

And the children themselves didn't really need as much support when they were younger it was only as they became older and things started to emerge and how they managed themselves and sometimes couldn't manage themselves where support was more needed but by then when you've had them for about 10 years you going back to access support can sometimes be quite challenging and difficult to get and although i did get some support for myself within the home, it didn't translate into school. And that's where the sort of challenges really were. And is that, for example, going back to the school, was there any programme in place for children?

No, there was nothing. And I used to have support from social workers and psychologists within school to try and explain how an adopted child would be thinking and feeling and why these big feelings and emotions come out and explode, sometimes with the slightest trigger that we may or may not be aware of, but it can happen. But the school just didn't really see them as much that as much as a problem they were very able academically which although is good meant that they didn't really see a need until it sort of overwhelmed them and exploded. I just mentioned our number for people to get in touch a moment ago Claire and Becky it's 84844 if they want to text and I do see somebody getting in touch we have two adopted children,

siblings in their early teens. My youngest is suffering with depression and self-harm as well as having behaviour issues at school and home. We've sought help from social services, the GP and school but the support has been extremely limited as we've been told mental health services are overwhelmed after COVID

and that our issues are, and I quote, are not that bad in comparison at what this person has been told. Why is it, Becky? I mean, I keep mentioning statistics, but this figure of 58% from the report of young adults attempting to access mental health support last year. Why is there not more attention given to that particular aspect, if it is expected, as I think I'm hearing from you and Clare? Becky? Hi, yeah, I think there has historically been a sense around adoption

that adoption is a solution and that once a young person, a child is adopted, that's kind of the end of their problems. And I think what we understand more now, and especially from listening to adoptees themselves talk about their experiences, is that the experiences you've had before you were adopted and the fact of being adopted itself can have lifelong implications.

So I think there is a sense that we need to perhaps wake up to the reality of what it means to be adopted. But I think also while there's been significant investment in improvements in the early stages of adoption, there's a lot of attention being put on recruitment of adopters and how we prepare adopters. For those who were adopted 10 years or more ago, that support wasn't there in the early stages. And now as they reach the teens and young adulthood, if they're hitting crisis, there isn't a pathway for them.

People are not necessarily sure what to do when a family approaches social services or mental health services in crisis because the needs of adopted and care experienced children are so specific. And there isn't always the professional expertise to meet them. Well, let's talk about what to do in just a moment i see another message coming in i'm an adopted parent of a 14 year old daughter and a 17 year old son it has been hell we had to make our son homeless due to abuse against his sister both are violent drug users non-school attenders social services and mental health has been hopeless and blamed us. Husband and I both had to reduce our work and our antidepressants. Respite would have made a big difference

and more understanding and knowledge by statutory services. I would not recommend anyone adopts. I mean, that's incredibly sad. And we can talk about that aspect of it in just a moment because we want to talk about what should be there. Clare, let's turn to you. I don't know if either of those messages that I've read out has resonated in any way with you, but what needed to be in that school? And I believe one of your children was excluded from school as well. Yeah, they were um what needed to be in place was just the school

being open to more communication from social services about children like them and how they are going to be um strategies that they would be willing to implement which may be slightly different to other children in the school like just for example going in later okay finishing later things like that um and just a general awareness that this child is going to experience difficulties and be willing to work with us and with them so a flexibility is what i'm hearing but i'm also wondering you know we're talking about teenagers but doesn't it make it difficult if they are coming in cold to this child, so to speak, instead of that toddler or infant that you adopted, for example? I'm just thinking of like equivalent to a family GP, for example, a lot easier to diagnose something if you know the medical history of that child yeah definitely a real sharing of information about the child and you know things that may may happen to them i mean it may not you just don't know sometimes if they're going to be

triggered but just an awareness that it could happen and to be aware of it and ready for it and some sort of a support program in place for the child to continue all throughout their school life, really. So they have that ready to access when and if needed. Becky, let me turn back to you. I mean, heartbreaking, that last message I read as well. But for somebody like that, what would you advise them? I mean, they feel, I think from what I'm hearing, is that they're coming up against a brick wall for everything that they try. Yes, and this is where the conversation needs to go beyond the behaviours of the child or the challenges that the child is facing and go out wider in terms of what support is available. There is increasing levels of support from adoption support services. There've

been changes introduced in recent years. The Adoption Support Fund in England, for instance, can fund therapeutic support. But as I've said said for those older children who didn't benefit from that in their early years and indeed for adult adoptees for whom this isn't even available um there needs to be a wider understanding of the issues that are at play not only from adoption support services but from wider services as claire has spoken about in education in mental health adoptive parents and adults adoptees really lack any confidence that statutory services understand the needs of care experience and adopted people and so even from the start to ensure that training is provided for people to understand the impact of trauma and the impact of care experience in health mental health education

youth offending and criminal justice in all these statutory areas that might become involved with a family when a child reaches their teens. So we have a statement from the Department of Education for Education, which says we agree that ambitious

and wide ranging reform to children's social care is needed, which is why we published our plans to do just that earlier this year, alongside an initial investment of £200 million to test and refine our plans to do just that earlier this year, alongside an initial investment of £200 million to test and refine our approach to make sure it works. We're transforming the system to focus on more

early support for families, reducing the need for crisis response at a later stage, alongside significant spending of £10.8 billion on social care this year alone, an increase of almost £800 million year on year. And what i find interesting about that coming back to you claire is that they're talking about focusing on early support

and that would reduce the need for crisis response later do you think that's true i think always being ahead of what could be happening and ahead of the wave in a sense then lets you then when it starts to happen when something's going wrong and things are overwhelming and breaking down you're all prepared and you've got the strategies in place and you're you know can help yourself you know your child you know how to help yourself in the home to keep everything as calm as you can and regulated and then you know schools hopefully instead of just coming to you at the end of the day with a list of problems we'll be saying this is what's happened but we've put this in place to help them rather than just telling you what they've done wrong every day which is exhausting a couple of more comments coming in if adopted children have suffered childhood trauma then it's vital that their

parenting and schooling is trauma informed for the long term this requires adequate funding of social care education and health care by the government. We know what trauma-informed care looks like, but it needs funding. And then going back to the message of the person who said they were going through hell and that they were really, it sounded regretful if I'm putting words in their mouth, I apologise, that they had adopted. I have another message here from Claire who says, my partner and I are just starting the adoption process

so are very interested in this. Is there any available data on the number of non-adopted young people who feel they're not getting the support they need? Interesting. We both work in healthcare with young people and have seen a dramatic increase in mental health needs along with the decrease in available services in the past few years. What about that, Becky? I mean, is it possible to make

real life comparisons between those groups? I'm not sure if it's possible. I'm not sure if it's necessarily entirely helpful. We can see that we see in the news all the time that there is a report of mental health crisis among teens and we see that the services are stretched but when we're talking about children who are care experienced we're talking about a very specific set of difficulties and circumstances and the issue is is yes part of the wider issue of access to mental health support but even if mental health support was well funded and available to everybody the support that is needed for care experienced children needs to be specific and tailored to their needs and and this is what is sometimes

missing and indeed also for adults adoptees um also and if somebody has been adopted and would like to chime in please do 84844 that person claire who got in touch she's thinking about adopting the previous person had adopted. Are you worried by talking about these statistics and difficulties that it might put people off adopting when we know,

you know, there are so many children in care? Go ahead, Clare. No, I think people need to be aware of what you could be facing as your child grows and develops, because you're not just adopting a toddler or a baby or a child you're adopting a teenager a young adult and an adult and you're going to be supporting them so

their whole lives it doesn't just end um you know when they grow up a bit it just you continue continue the support for them and as a parent you're always having to you know be ready for what's coming next so no i think it's great i think as long as you're aware and then nothing always forewarned is forearmed isn't it so and it's great I want to put that out there you said yeah no it is it is because I've got children and I mean how wonderful is that and Becky just to let you have the last word on this yeah absolutely um adoption is about finding families for children um and those children absolutely deserve that the people are going to be raising them understand their needs and are ready to face the challenges that might come and those parents need to be absolutely certain that the support that their child needs will be

available for them at the point when their child needs it. There are a lot of joys in being a parent, in being an adoptive parent. I wouldn't expect anybody to be put off, but I would say you need to look into it carefully and make sure you have the resilience and the resources and the energy to advocate for your child, not just as a toddler, but throughout their childhood and into adulthood. So let us see what happens. Thank you so much to having both of you on.

I have to say, since you've been on, Becky and Clare, just so many messages are coming in with people's experiences. Clare, so many people identifying what you said as well. I'll read a few more of those messages out throughout the programme. Thank you both so much. I want to turn now instead to the streets of Delhi. So that is the sound of Indian women wrestlers protesting after they accused their sports federation's top official of sexual harassment and abuse of female wrestlers.

He denies those allegations. The wrestlers include Olympic medalists and they're demanding the resignation and arrest of the Federation's president. There's just three months until the World Championships and the Asian Games take place when ordinarily these women would be focused on very intense training. Let me turn to Divya Arya, Women's Affairs Journalist at BBC Delhi.

Good to have you with us, Divya, on Women's Hour. I believe you're on your way to the protest now. Can you explain to our listeners who are just coming to this story why this has caught the attention of so many? Hi, Nuala. Good to be on the programme and to bring this story, which has really struggled to stay in the headlines, if I may say so, because it is about a long struggle to get justice. And as long struggles are, they tend to get boring and nothing moves. And that's exactly what these wrestlers are trying to raise more awareness for. It's been a month since they've been sitting out in the sun. It's 45 degrees today in Delhi. Very, very hot. And these wrestlers are Olympian medalist, world championship medalist. And their basic complaint

is against the chief of the Wrestling Federation of India, who they and many other women wrestlers have accused of sexual harassment. It's a charge they first brought out in the open in January after claiming that they had tried to raise it at various levels with various authorities in the sports ministry and the federation, but with no success. And therefore, they had to come out on the streets, literally, to talk about what they had faced and ask for action to be taken. So, and then having to suspend their training at the level that they would want to do it.

I did see that there are people supporting them that have come out to see them, but you talk about it losing momentum in India, but at the same time, perhaps just starting to have some momentum internationally. I mean, how is this expected to play out? We do know and we've spoken previously about gender inequality in India, also a history of gender violence. Indeed, and it's ironic, in fact, Nuala, because just around 10, little over 10 years back in December 2012, it was a case of sexual violence, rape of a student on a bus in Delhi that got everybody's attention and got people out on the streets, the government in a spot, leading to strengthening of laws around violence against women. And we have spent a lot of time over the past decade analyzing how much

has changed, how effective the government's promises have been and how safer women feel in India. So when such an issue comes out in the open, it generally brings people together across various divides, religious, caste, and so on. But this time, and probably because it's sexual harassment, not sexual violence, which is harder to establish, less black and white can be dismissed and is often dismissed because of lack of proof that this issue hasn't really united people across the country and got that kind of outrage, especially which is the fact that these are Olympian medalists. And, you know, India, unlike some other countries, doesn't have too many Olympic medalists.

So these are few and far apart. And if they are choosing to stop their training at the cost of, you know, the next world championship is just three months away. Asian Games is three months away and they are really going to suffer personal losses. And mind you, the three players who are at the forefront of this protest aren't the ones who have complained of sexual harassment. So they are doing this on behalf of other female players, especially younger players. Who would not be so powerful. Exactly. But they're personally the face of the protest and therefore stand to face the music. So what is happening with the actual,

I suppose, speaking to the Federation head? I believe he was questioned by police, but will that go any further or do we know exactly what's happening charges wise? Well, he's been accused of sexual harassment. Initially, the complaint was made to the Federation and the process is that there's an internal committee that is meant to investigate such complaints. The committee, which is mandated by law to be present in every organisation, wasn't there. So they constituted a committee agreeing to the demands of these

wrestlers. That committee prepared a report, which it did not make public except for some very broad observations, which is a grouse these players have. And that is why they then went to the police a month earlier. And the police did not register a first information report or an FIR either. So they went to the Supreme Court asking the Supreme Court to ask the police to register that complaint, after which the police did register the complaint. Then there was no questioning of the main accused or the complainants. So again, they raised a hue and cry about that. Now the complainants have been interviewed and the accused has also been questioned. And now their next demand is for his arrest, because the

charges do not mandate an arrest. But they are saying that because the charges have been repeated, there's seven complaints, including one by a minor, that that is enough evidence to ask him to step down from his post and to arrest him, which hasn't happened as yet. Is it possible to know, Divya, how long they will stay out protesting? And from what I saw, they're kind of under a blue tarpaulin in this incredible heat that you talk about. It's actually pretty sad, Nuala, if you were to visit where they are. There is a lot of police barricading.

It's hard for even the media to access them easily. The access is quite controlled by the police in the name of maintaining law and order. And that's not to say that that's not a good way of dealing with it. But it is very intimidating. And especially for people who are going out there to support the protesters, it can be intimidating as well. Of course, it's really hard conditions. The wrestlers have been using the portable toilets available there

or public toilets nearby, going to well wishes houses in the morning for a bath. They've been training out in the open early morning when the media cameras have left and sleeping there as well overnight in the heat in with the mosquitoes, you know, with traffic going around them. So these it's not ideal conditions. And I think they're trying to make a point that look at us. This is what we are willing to do to be heard. But of course, there can be an argument made that investigation takes its time and one cannot force the police to to arrest somebody. And if it's taking them more time to investigate, then that's it. But the Supreme Court has asked the police for a report on the speed of the investigation, which they are expected

to submit next week. And that's when we hope we will see some movement forward. Now, the wrestlers have said that they will not leave till the Federation chief is arrested, who, of course, denies all allegations, is a public figure. He is a six-time member of parliament from Uttar Pradesh, India's northern state, holds a lot of sway not only in politics, he comes from the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party, but also in the field of wrestling, which has been his passion. And he has been the president thrice, which is the maximum number of times he can be the president of the federation. So he is due to step down, but can be the president of the federation so he is due to step down but he hasn't yet the federation was supposed to have elections this month which they haven't as yet so there's a lot of ambiguity and uncertainty and it's hard to to really see with will will the

wrestlers lose steam eventually they are not they are also talking about holding more protests going forward because they want to be in the media's eyes. So we are seeing them fall out of the media eye. But as you said, there is some murmur happening outside of India about what they are trying. So let's see where it goes in the next week. Divya Arya, Women's Affairs Journalist at BBC Delhi. Thank you so much. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's

Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Thanks for all the messages coming in on adoption. Parent of an adoptive child, now 21, was violent and socially unable in teenage years, excluded from three schools, now has criminal record and never worked, sought help but was told ineligible for help from the Adoption Support Fund. Another, however, does talk about for her 15-year-old adopted child who did self-harm from a young age, was able to get support from social services and schools have been fantastic.

So that one from Kirsty, so some positives as well. Right, I want to turn to a new production of Verdi's Rigoletto, opening next week at Opera Holland Park, described as a propulsive tragedy of toxic masculinity and unfettered power. And it is full of, yes, music you know.

But the story hinges on the sexual assault of the leading female character, Gilda. It was written in 1892, before any kind of Me Too movement, of course, just talking about that in India. But for this interpretation, the director, Cecilia Stinton, has set it in an Oxbridge-style college

in the 1920s. And she joins me now live in the studio along with soprano Alison Langer who plays the role of Gilda. Good morning. Good morning. Great to have both of you with us. Okay let's turn to that propulsive tragedy. What is the story Cecilia briefly? The story is about Rigoletto the court jester to the very corrupt Duke of Mantua. And Rigoletto, alongside his day job, is hiding a secret daughter named Gilda. And why in the Oxbridge-style college of the 1920s? This is an opera about entitlement, about patriarchy and about the abuse of power and thinking particularly about the fallout of the Me Too movement

and some of the kind of hotspots of investigations, which were universities. I was interested in the sort of power structures and institutional complicity, among other things. OK, so still relevant in 2023. Absolutely. Let me turn to you, Alison. You play Rigoletto's daughter, Gilda, among other things. Okay, so still relevant in 2023. Absolutely. Let me turn to you, Alison. You play Rigoletto's daughter, Gilda, as I mentioned.

Tell us a little bit about her character. So she is, yes, Rigoletto's daughter. She's been kept away from anything awful in her life. So she's a very, she's portrayed as very naive. I think she's not as naive as we think. Okay. So I think she's a very brave woman. But she is seeking life. You know, she has been sheltered so much in her life. And she finds life

through sneaking out sometimes she finds life through meeting the Duke, who, well, life maybe isn't the right word. But she but she finds all this excitement in this man that she's never felt these feelings before. So everything for Gilda is a visceral experience because it's the first time she's experiencing these things. And so she falls in love with the Duke, mistaking him instead at that time for an impoverished student. Yes.

But what happens then? What happens then? She meets the Duke. He tells her he's a poor student and she immediately falls in love with him. She's taken over by him. And unfortunately, she is then, spoiler alert, abducted by men and brought to the Duke. And unfortunately, a horrible experience happens to her. She is sexually abused by him. And she is then left completely and never sees the Duke again.

Well, until later on in the opera. But that's her first experience of love in her eyes, her first experience of intimacy. And it is a horrendous, horrendous thing that's happened to her. So you're trying to get across, Cecilia, the confusion. Absolutely. I think what this opera does really, really well is it explores the nuance of experience and the fact that Gilda's psychology is a complicated and rich one. And she feels lots of things at the same time.

And the music and the text, but also with the staging, we can kind of unpick those different conflicting, sometimes feelings. And you are going to perform for us, Alison. This is Tutte le feste, speaking to her father. Just tell our listeners what to be listening out for. Yes, so this is the first time she's speaking about what's happened to her. She doesn't really describe much of what actually happens to her.

She talks about how she met the Duke. And if you'd met him, oh my gosh, you would have fallen under his spell as well. But in the music, all of the dips and the fireworks that happen are this mental, awful inner psychology of what she's feeling. And it basically is describing what has happened to her. Okay, well, I'm looking forward to listening to it. You're going to be accompanied by Katie Wong, who is on piano. And this is Tutte le feste al tempio, mentre pregava il Dio, Bello e fatale un giovine offriasi al guardo mio. L'acqua è l'acqua, il cuore è l'acqua. Furtibo frane tenebre, solieria me giunerva, Mano studente povero, Como so mi diceva, E con ardente palmito L'amore mi protestò, partì, partì. Reaprima si, a svemi piu grandita,

quando improvviso entrarono color che man rapita Wow. Wow. We have to give a little clap there, we totally do. That was amazing, Alison. My first question would be, how do you do that? Well, I'm not actually sure. We had a rehearsal last night till 10.30 last night. So I was thinking, gosh, this is going to be a challenge. But it's good technical training from my wonderful singing teacher. And what is it like to be the soprano? Because she is, we always think, right, the diva that walks in the room.

I have to tell everybody you're incredibly nice from what I've met you so far. But are you working on those diva aspects? What does it feel like when you walk in and they know you are the soprano? Well, this is the thing. I think the word diva isn't a very good word, if I'm completely honest. I think that a leading lady should lead a company. So if you are the soprano and you are treated with respect, of course, because we must all be treated with respect,

I think that setting yourself boundaries and wanting to be respected is a very, very OK requirement to have as a leading lady. So the word diva, maybe not, but it does feel nice to be singing the most. Oh, my God, it's wonderful. It's absolutely wonderful. We were enjoying it so much, as I know my listeners will have been as well. It's just wow. It's what comes to mind. What about moving away from the diva, but women's depiction in opera Cecilia, so sometimes it's like the virgin or the whore. And the woman often dies at the end. Do we see a more varied female role in opera now? I think that's a really good question. I think we do, by and large. I think contemporary productions are working so much harder than ever before to use staging in particular as a way of visualising things which are not an inherent part of the operatic text. That is the historical libretto, which is the word for the script in opera, or the score.

So staging can kind of take some critical distance from the text and the music and present something a bit different. And I think, yeah, contemporary productions are absolutely doing that. Because there is still that perception at times that it's highbrow. And I am definitely no expert in opera. A couple of times I've been lucky enough to have had it happen in the studio and I'm so moved by it when I hear it.

But how accessible is opera, do you think, for the average person? Let me throw that to you, Alison. It is accessible because companies are trying really hard to make it accessible. There are so many under-18 free tickets in all the opera companies, you know, and Holland Park do great schemes for young people to try to show, you know,

to show opera to the younger generation. I think, you know, these are tough times that we're in and I think a lot of opera companies are in tough times and it's about working to really make sure we're keeping opera accessible and we're keeping it thriving and we're keeping it important and relevant. Why do you love it? Oh why do I love it because I tried really hard not to I tried I fought against opera for a long time because I wanted to dance and I wanted to act but my voice kept pushing me back to opera and classical singing and it I'm so glad it did because now I love it.

And I had amazing tutors all the way through college. I was talking about some today who just really showed me the importance of singing your true voice. And this, it sounds so cheesy, but it really is my true voice. Well, we're really glad you take this path, aren't we, Cecilia?

Absolutely. And Katie. So Katie Wogg on the piano. And we also had Alison Langer, our soprano. We can call her our diva. That's a good word now. And Cecilia Stinton, who is the director. Thank you both, all three of you so much. Thank you. Now, let me move on instead to something completely different. Maybe you saw this today. New research has found that women are twice as likely to die within 30 days of a heart attack compared to men.

Likewise, nearly a third of women that were studied had died within five years of a heart attack compared with just under 20% of men. Now, charities warn there's still a perception that the condition is a male one. Many don't recognise the symptoms in female patients. To explore why women appear to be more vulnerable, particularly that post-heart attack treatment, I'm joined by consultant cardiologist Dr Sonia Babu-Narian,

Associate Medical Director at the British Heart Foundation. Thanks so much for joining us, Doctor. I mean, that is a statistic that would stop you in your tracks. Twice as likely to die within 30 days after that heart attack. Why? Well, it's tragic, isn't it?

Time and time again, robust international evidence shows that the odds of surviving a heart attack are worse if you're a woman. Heart disease kills. It kills women, not only men. It's the world's biggest killer of women. So more than breast cancer, more than cervical cancer. In fact, twice as many women will die of heart disease than of breast cancer.

And many women are the last to know that or to be aware that they could suffer the symptoms of a heart attack. And this could cost lives. And at every stage of their heart disease care, it feels like the odds are often stacked against you as a woman, because you don't necessarily receive the same care as men. Because as a society, not just men, but women as well, we perceive heart attack as a man's disease, where women may more likely delay their care, they're more likely not to get the best evidence based treatments, the drugs, the stents to unblock their coronary arteries, the surgery,

more likely to go home without those treatments, more likely not to be able to attend the kind of rehabilitation and aftercare after a heart attack, which means more likely to live with heart failure that could have been avoided or to needlessly die. So that's it. So what I think I'm hearing, the drugs, the stents, the after treatment care, that is just not implemented at the same levels as it is for men. I mean, how can that change? We need to change a number of different steps, don't we? I think as listeners, and I listen to this program too, we need to be aware that we too could, if we're women, suffer the symptoms of a heart attack, know what those symptoms are. What are they? Forgive me for stepping on you. so-called symptom is central chest pain that may travel down your arm or arms to the jaw to the back or to the tummy but people women and men don't necessarily use the word pain they're more

likely to perceive a sense of heaviness or pressure some people say an elephant sitting on my chest discomfort and so on they may not use that actual word pain. And many people will have breathlessness, are feeling sick, feeling dizzy, or the feeling of being really anxious, sort of something bad is going to happen is actually associated with having a heart attack, whether you're a woman or a man. Now, some people say that women are more likely to have pain in their back associated with the pain in the middle of their chest. And it may or may not be the case, but a beautifully designed British Heart Foundation study in Edinburgh involved taking a history, so taking the story in exactly the same way in the women and men that came in to the services. And they found that symptoms that are so-called atypical are similar in men and women. But what's shocking to me as a

cardiologist is that when a woman does present with even the most classic bond or if you like symptoms that are in no doubt attributed to heart attack symptoms, they are more likely to themselves think it's a panic attack or worse, healthcare professionals even more likely to think that there may be anxiety driving that rather than as it may turn out a heart attack. And that has to change. But that's a cultural change, right? That is, and I've heard it, of course, with many other women's health issues as well on this programme. And I'm wondering how you see that be combated. I'm still thinking about them not receiving the same drugs as men, for example, or the same treatment post heart attack, which, of course, the headline is today. Well, it's shocking, and even in our awareness in

society that will shift this dial. So what we can do as individuals about it is know the symptoms of a heart attack. So if our mother or sister or daughter could be having one, we think of it. We don't delay because women are more likely to delay calling 999 or seeking help because they think they're not having a heart attack. So know your symptoms, don't delay, tell the person that you're accessing care from, the healthcare professional, you think you're having a heart attack. Men don't seem to be shy to say, I think I'm having a heart attack. I know that not everyone has that kind of Hollywood heart attack where you're a man in your cripple double clutch in your chest. It may not quite look like that.

Ask about the treatments you're getting or not getting. And I think as a call to arms, maybe all of us, women and men, we need to create more confidence in research. The BHF is the largest independent fund of research for heart and circulatory disease in the UK. And what we want to see is better representation. You may also be surprised to know that in a data collection of research studies done between 2010 and 2017, so 740 cardiovascular clinical research trials, only 38% of those participants were women.

So there's a bit of headroom to become 50% and make sure the evidence about the treatments that we all need to survive heart attack, the world's commonest killer, are equally applicable to women as they are to men. We need to make research easy to participate in for women. So a call to arms there by consultant cardiologist Dr Sonia Babu-Narian.

Thank you both. Thank you so much for joining us from the British Heart Foundation. I do see one here coming in a comment. Women and heart attacks. My mother was in well just after Princess Diana died. She went to her GP who put it down to Diana syndrome as she was a woman of a certain age.

A few days later, it transpired she had had two heart attacks. That message coming in from Josephine. Thanks, Josephine. 84844. Right, I want to turn to wedding season, in a way. It is upon us. And if you're looking for a somewhat sceptical take, you might want to read The Happy Couple by the best-selling Irish author, Nisha Dolan. The novel follows a young couple living in London, Selene and Luke,

in the run-up to their wedding. Selene is a pianist who is perhaps more interested in Tchaikovsky than her fiancé. And Luke, the fiancé, is a serial cheater. So the days are ticking down as we read it and they're beset by creeping doubts about each other and the very concepts of marriage and also monogamy. I'm pleased to say that Nisha is in the Woman's Hour studio. Good morning. Good morning. Now, many people might know you already from the debut novel Exciting Times,

which was long listed for the Women's Prize for Fiction, lauded by the likes of Hilary Mantel, Zadie Smith, among others. So, in very good company there. But what about this? The institution of marriage is where you decided to kind of play out these characters and their thinking. I think if you've grown up reading enough 19th century novels, you'll always feel that you have unfinished business

with the institution of marriage because it's such a fulcrum of action in these very influential texts. I don't think 19th century literature celebrates or vaunts marriage to the full extent that it's often popularly assumed. Certainly the Brontes have quite a sour take on it generally, even if there might be a happy exception at the end. We see some fairly not good husbands until we get there but nonetheless to have it be such a turning point in the books that shaped my voice at such a young age meant then that I was always going to take it on at some stage so it might well be that I just felt

ready because you write your first novel as much as anything to learn the mechanics of how to write a novel. And so I didn't have anything thematic in mind to get across. My benchmark of achievement was just, is this a novel? Does it meet the criteria to count? But with the second one, I'd already done that. I was fairly confident that I could write something that was recognisably a novel. And so it felt time to weigh in on something that influenced so many novels that was recognisably a novel. And so it felt time to weigh in on something that had influenced so many novels that have shaped me. So we bring it up to A Comedy of Manners, I heard it called by one reviewer, by the way,

which I thought was good. But, you know, there is still this obsession in 2023, you're talking about the Brontes and whatnot, of marriage and monogamy. And why do you think it's still there when there are so many more options as you explore in your book? I think because art shapes how we see ourselves and what we want for ourselves and what we consider important as much as the people directly around us can. And that's why representation is enormously important because it influences the level on which

we think and so even if the social reality that you're exposed to is that it's less and less necessary for anyone to ever marry for financial reasons or for legal protection or what have you still if the reality you see in art is that it's the summit of everyone's experience, that's going to shape how you think. So just to let our listeners know, so Celine and Luke, those main characters, they're in their 20s, they're bisexual, they've had different types of relationships, open relationships, friends with benefits, for want of a better term. And why do you think then thinking about those two people that they would be ready to give it up? Because they've been conditioned by what they've seen in art or whatever that art may be, a TV show or And so in some ways, a bit naive and susceptible to influence along those lines. But I think probably a factor, too, is that they've fallen into the kind of arrangements that tend eventually to produce marriage.

They live together. They have a cat. And yeah, I think it is a lack of critical thinking as to the specifics of the institution. Because you say there, you use this phrase for their relationship, that they're in mutual unrequited love. What does that mean exactly? Yeah, in a vacuum, it does sound like a slightly nonsensical paradox, doesn't it? No, I understand what you mean, because I've read the book, but I want to throw that out to our listeners from you. Well, what the book explains this seemingly nonsensical phrase means is that Luke, the man in this relationship, dislikes the idea of being tied down, but actually does enjoy the daily realities of having a person whereas Celine the woman experiences it in a complete opposite way where she likes the idea of having this box

ticked in her life but in reality doesn't find that it suits her and so the wires have crossed as to what they want and what reality they're actually looking at. And they're not really in traditional gender roles either, I don't think. No, not in some ways, because Luke is the steady sustainer of the household. He's the person who does the chores and make sure the cat gets fed, whereas Selene is a temperamental, under times very annoying, artistic figure. She's a classical pianist whose work comes above the daily grind of making life happen. Did you find her annoying? Yes, I find all my characters intensely annoying, but there's a certain spark that ignites where somehow it produces an excitement for me anyway. There's a lot in it to explore.

I mentioned they're bisexual or gay, many of the characters, but there's no biggie about it. There's no drama about it. It's just par for the course. And maybe that's a generational thing, I was thinking as well. Yes, very possibly so. And I wouldn't want to generalize but I think the nice thing about art is it can represent the full plurality of experiences if everyone says a particular thing

and so I'm glad that there exists art where people have cathartic and often painful experiences coming to terms with who they are but that's not every person's reality and so I think there should also be art where it's taken for granted that, of course, you can be gay and, of course, so can all your friends. Yes, and that it's not a huge coming out, I don't think, for any of the characters

that we're reading about there. There are, Céline's in London, I mentioned. She's an Irish protagonist. Your last Irish protagonist lived in Hong Kong. So you have kind of that, I suppose, feet in two worlds feeling that that goes through the book. But you have said in a previous interview that you've been trying to unlearn the Irish female trait

of worrying about how you might make others feel. I think we have listeners all around the world, of course, but I wonder, do they, would they think that's a particularly Irish thing? It's difficult to say, obviously, because I don't have access to a counterpoint version of me that grew up somewhere else. But I do think small countries tend to have more severe cases of tall poppy syndrome and how that aligns with gender expectations. So tall poppy syndrome, meaning? Tallest poppy gets cut down in order to be same height as all the other poppies.

And I think that matters more in a small country because people have more tight forms of interaction and maybe communities emphasize more. And so being too much of an individual can be seen as threatening in some way. But I'm still trying to figure out how much of that is in my head and no longer applies. Because now when I go back to Ireland, I encounter all sorts of people who are very welcoming of confidence in women. So I don't know if that's the sort of people that I now meet, because it's often fellow Irish women like you who have themselves overcome any residual tall poppy syndrome to have this kind of job. Now you're a tall poppy. Yes, the height is evident.

And with that, that's so interesting, with the tall poppy, was there pressure then? You became a tall poppy with Exciting Times, let's be honest. Was there pressure then for this novel? Of a kind, I think not so much on the reception level, because I don't see it as my business how people respond to my work. It's always going to be shaped far more by them as a reader than by what I put down on the page. But I did want to make sure that for me, I was satisfied that I'd done something that I hadn't done with the first one, because the idea of writing the same book over and over until I die would make me want to just die. So there was pressure on the level of ensuring that I was taking risks and exploring new territory,

but not on the level of trying to please everyone, because that's the best way to write something exceptionally boring. So where will you go next, do you think? Well, I live in Berlin and I just love Berlin and find it fascinating. And I think once something fascinates me, I'll end up wanting to use my fiction as a container for the things that I'm learning and exploring. So maybe Berlin, but we'll have to see. Yeah, and I'm wondering, because you are in Berlin,

and sorry, we've only got about 20 seconds, but do you find it German female traits different to Irish? Yes. I feel like a different person when I'm speaking German. And some of it is because I'm choosing from maybe five ways to say something instead of 20 ways. And that will make you more direct. But directness is also just encouraged and seen as the polite thing to do because you're dealing with people clearly.

And then I bring that back to how I use English also, I think. Oh, I can't wait to read your next book, Nisha Doan. It's been a real pleasure having you in. Thank you so much. Her book is The Happy Couple.

I read Nisha's while I was on holiday. I also read Dr. Katrina O'Sullivan's book, Poor. Katrina will be on tomorrow. I hope you will join me then. That O'Sullivan's book, Poor. Katrina will be on tomorrow. I hope you will join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hello, I'm Jeremy Bowen, the BBC's international editor. For nearly 40 years, I've been reporting from some of the most complex and dangerous places in the world. In my new 10-part series, Frontlines of Journalism, I'm taking you to some of the most difficult stories I've had to cover. Six mortar rounds landed in or around the graveyard. Get a bit emotional about it, actually. To look at the obstacles that get in the way of the truth and how journalists, like me, navigate around them. It is never definitive. We can have this argument. Journalists tend to argue. Every word that comes out of your mouth is a form of opinion. If the world saw, the world would react.

Subscribe to Frontlines of Journalism from BBC Radio 4 now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.