Woman's Hour - Afghan midwives, DJ Annie Mac, Artist Chila Burman, Surviving grief

Episode Date: December 5, 2024

There have been reports that Afghan women are being banned from midwife and nursing courses in the latest blow to their rights. Women training as midwives and nurses in Afghanistan have told the BBC they were ordered not to return to classes, and five separate institutions across Afghanistan have also confirmed to the BBC that the Taliban had instructed them to close until further notice, with videos shared online showing students crying at the news. The BBC has yet to confirm the order officially with the Taliban government's health ministry. Anita Rani discusses what is potentially happening with BBC Diplomatic Correspondent Caroline Hawley.After the actor Anna Maxwell Martin spoke on the programme about the grief she experienced after her husband died suddenly in 2021, we were inundated with listeners sharing their stories. Two of them, Giselle De Hasse and Heather Ashley, join Anita to talk about how they manage their grief day to day, along with Dr Shelley Gilbert, the founder and president of Grief Encounter and a consultant psychotherapist.Daytime clubbing is a thing. All over the country, events are taking place, where you party early - and finish early - with plenty of time to be in your bed at a reasonable hour. So, whatever happened to the big night out? Is 3pm the new 9pm? And why are these early evening finishes becoming so popular? Anita is joined by DJ Annie Mac, the broadcaster, author, and events curator. Annie started her own version of an early finishing club event Before Midnight in 2022, with her 'nights' now running UK-wide.The artist Chila Kumari Singh Burman creates kaleidoscopic paintings, prints, etchings and moving images inspired by her Indian heritage. Chila was born in Toxteth in Merseyside and use materials like bindis and ice cream cones in her installations to represent her Asian identity as well as her working-class Liverpudlian childhood. She says she aims to challenge stereotypes and create an alternative perspective of Britishness. Chila joins Anita to talk about her eponymous book which brings together work from four decades and Neon Dreams, her exhibition at The Holburne Museum in Bath, which includes a life-size neon tiger in the ballroom and a giant multi-coloured neon lightshow on the façade of the museum building.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Now, when the actor Anna Maxwell-Martin was on the programme a few weeks ago, she spoke very honestly about how grief had impacted her life, first from losing her father as a young woman and then through losing the father of her children. Well, many of you were moved enough to message us

about your own experiences of grief, and today I'll be speaking to two listeners about how they coped. Also on the programme, writer, broadcaster, DJ Annie Mack will be here to tell us all about the joys of going out dancing before midnight and the demise of clubbing generally. So my questions to you are, were you an old school raver who now breaks into a sweat at the thought of not being in bed at a decent hour? Are you a clubber whose children have no interest in going out?

And day raving, does it appeal to you? Get in touch. Also, one of my favourite artists, Shaila Berman, will be telling us about neon tigers and ice cream cones and having no choice but to be political. But first, it seems that not even government officials are spared from their mother's best interests and intentions. I'm talking about former Fox News host Pete Hegseth, who Donald Trump is considering for the role of defence secretary. His nomination has been far from smooth sailing, though. In fact, there's been a number of questions raised about his suitability, qualifications and a past sexual assault allegation which has surfaced.

Hegseth has denied any wrongdoing and was never arrested or charged. And his mum, Penelope Hegseth, decided to take it upon herself to defend her son. I know Pete and the people who know us know Pete and Trump knows Pete. Penelope Hegseth decided to take it upon herself to defend her son. I know Pete and the people who know us know Pete and Trump knows Pete and he knows the Pete of today and he knows the Pete who is a good father, a good husband to Jen, he's got seven kids, he's a wonderful son, wonderful son and a wonderful son to his brothers and all his friends. He's a wonderful son, wonderful son and a wonderful son to his brothers and all his friends. He's a changed man. And I just hope people will will get to know who Pete is today, especially our dear female senators, that you would listen to him.

Listen with your heart to the truth of Pete. Well, we don't know if Pete knew that his mum was going to make that statement about Pete. But we'd like to know about your own experiences this morning. Has your mother ever overstepped the mark when she intervened on your behalf? What did she do? And how did it go down? Were you mortified? What did she actually do you a favour? Share that story with me this morning. Tell me about your mother. i'm very much looking forward to reading these the text number is 84844 you can voice note or whatsapp the program it's 03700 100444 email me by going to our website and our social media is at bbc woman's hour 84844 the text number but first there have been reports reports that Afghan women are to be banned from

midwife and nursing courses in the latest blow to their rights. Women training as midwives and nurses in Afghanistan have told the BBC they were ordered not to return to classes and five separate institutions across Afghanistan have also confirmed to the BBC that the Taliban have instructed them to close until further notice, with videos shared online showing students crying at the news. This is a clip from a video on X, where female students in Afghanistan sing and weep, and they're singing, Oh Come Cry With Me, Oh Sky. Now, it's not clear what will happen to those women and another estimated 17,000 women on training courses.

The BBC has yet to confirm the order officially with the Taliban government's health ministry. But to discuss what's happening and the longer implications, I'm joined now by BBC diplomatic correspondent Caroline Hawley. Good morning, Caroline. So tell us what we know so far. Well, this came very suddenly and very shockingly for the women who were in medical training, and that was one of the last avenues of any kind of education available to them. They turned up for their classes as usual on Tuesday, only to be told that there were no more classes and to be turned away. And as you said, people were incredibly upset.

There were women crying. There was that video of women singing, which is very, very brave thing to do, because in Afghanistan, women official edict about this, but sources have confirmed to the BBC that it has happened. And most importantly, the women have been told that they're not going to be able to go back to their studies. Now, I've been told by an Afghan colleague that they have been told that they can do their final exam if they're at that stage, but no more classes, no more training. And that has huge implications for the future in a country where the health system is already in very poor shape. And there's been growing criticism that I'm sure you want to ask me about from the UN and others about this move and calls for it to be reversed. Tell us what have they said? Well, the chief executive of UNICEF has said that they're deeply alarmed that lives will

be lost. The UN, excuse me, something just fell. The UN said last year that there was a lack of 17,000 midwives. That was the need at the time. But now there are going to be no more 17,000 midwives. That was the need at the time. But now there are going to be no more women training as midwives. Then the UN special rapporteur on Afghanistan said this would have a devastating impact on an entire population. He said it was inexplicable and unjustifiable.

Obviously, you've got human rights groups criticising it. Clerics not affiliated with the Taliban have condemned it as well, as has the former president, Hamid Karzai. And sorry, Anita, I just dropped my phone because I wanted to read you some really interesting comments. Please do. The Afghan national cricketers. And this is from Rashid Khan. and he is the captain of the national team and he says education holds a central place in Islamic teachings emphasizing the pursuit of knowledge for both men and women he goes on it was with deep sadness and disappointment that I reflect on the recent closures of educational and medical institutions for

the sisters and mothers of Afghanistan why is that important why is that significant for him well he said it's profoundly affected not only their future but also the broader fabric of our society because if a new generation of midwives can't be trained then who's going to deliver the babies of the future so uh that is one concern so obviously it's devastating news for the women um who were who were pursuing this last avenue available to them of any kind of formal education because if we put it in in context first girls are told they can't go to secondary school there's some you know the taliban are unclear about it might they be allowed might they not be allowed They've never been allowed back since the Taliban took over in

2021. Then they're told they can't get women can't go to universities. They're not even allowed in public parks. And then earlier in I think it was in August, there was an edict that came out that said their voices couldn't be heard in public. So women have seen their lives shrink and shrink. And frankly, many are in utter despair and saying that the direction of travel of the Taliban is so depressing that they're utterly hopeless. And so hopeless. But even if their voices have been banned, we heard them singing there, like crying in despair. What have students on the ground been saying about this well they've been saying they're they're heartbroken and actually

um on tuesday when they were turned away um i saw some images of three women and they were standing with placards saying education is our right and they were singing about their heartbreak but another interesting thing is that up until last year women brave women were going out onto the streets and protesting and demanding their rights but that's become too dangerous so I don't think you'll see any any videos on social media of women showing their faces now so the women I saw had their placards held in front of their faces so they couldn't be identified that video of the singing you didn't see their faces so it's just a really difficult time for Afghan women they're seeing their lives as I said confined and then further

confined and what the UN is worried about is that as said earlier, that this is not just about the women involved, this will have a really devastating impact in a country where one woman dies of complications from pregnancy and childbirth every hour already. What is life like currently for female doctors and midwives in Afghanistan? Well, female doctors and midwives can still practice. And it's really one of the very few jobs they can do. They can also work in security, for example, patting down women at airports, because that's something that Taliban men would not do. But there are very, very, very few jobs open to them.

So the issue is, if if no women now can uh train to be any form of men um medical midwife then um well that will have catastrophic consequences and what could they be what would the the long term impact of this be on the country's health system? Well, where would you I'm actually not aware how many UN sorry, how many women doctors there are who are currently still allowed to work. But it's about the future, isn't it? It's about who is going to look after women when they wouldn't feel comfortable going to a male doctor, when the men are not going to deliver children. So the fear is that women, more women, will give birth at home and that will have dangerous consequences for the women, for the mothers and for the babies. Thank you so much for speaking to us this morning, Caroline. That's the BBC diplomatic correspondent, Caroline Hawley. 84844 is the number to text. Now, I want to tell you about a programme that's coming up in exactly three weeks from now. I'm going to be presenting our Boxing Day special. I can't believe it's December already. Never mind talking about Boxing

Day. We're going to be celebrating one of the great festive treats on this programme, puzzles. So everything from crosswords, board games, quizzes, eSports, the lot. And we're also going to be paying tribute to the woman behind some of the best-selling puzzles of all time, Agatha Christie. So I want to hear from you. Which games will you be playing with friends and family this Christmas? And how do you handle the inevitable squabbles? What are the puzzles that have seen you through difficult times? Anything you'd like to share with me about Christmas and puzzles, get in touch and you never

know, you may be on the programme. Get in touch in the normal way, text number 84844 or you can email the programme by going to our website. You're getting in touch about a variety of things, but I'm going to read this one out. I'm in my early 50s, and we went to see Pete Tong and his orchestra last night. Great night. Average age in the room was 50s. Didn't get home until 1am.

Going to take a week to recover. Not like the good old days. Well, it's funny you should say that because daytime clubbing. Have you done it? Have you heard about it? Do you want to join in all over the country events are taking place not just because it's the festive season but all year long where you start early and finish early with plenty of time to be in bed at a reasonable hour

um so whatever happened to the big night out well someone was out last night um is 3 p.m really new the 9 p.m and why are these early evening finishes becoming more and more popular? I am delighted to be able to tell you that sitting in front of me is the radiant DJ Annie Mack, broadcaster, author and events curator. Annie started her own version of these club events with Before Midnight back in 2022 and it continues to run all over the UK. And dates are already out for 2025. So you've got to book in. Apparently they sell. Annie, welcome. Hello, thank you for having us. It's wonderful to have you here.

Yeah. And whatever did happen to the big night out? Well I can bring you through some reasons why people don't go out as much as they used to. Yeah, what are we not going out? We are not going out as much as we did and there's a myriad of reasons for that. But I'll try and run through some for you, Anita. First of all, young people don't go out as much as they used to. COVID happened, a whole generation of kids grew up without clubbing as an entry point. Instead, they watch DJs on live streams. So DJs are still popular, but they're watched online. They don't go out as much as they used to. Secondly, people just have less money. There's less disposable income at large. That's compounded with the fact that we have this kind of on-demand culture now. You can sit on your armchair, you can download a movie, you can get food brought to you. There's less need to go out because you have so much coming to you. Then there's other reasons I think are very important, especially for for this program is that safety is a big big big reason drink spiking bad transport links women especially feeling unsafe having to go home from a club at three four five in the morning um and then another thing that i thought

was really interesting um especially about how we work now post-covid is the work from home culture so many big nights out start from a suggestion over a desk saying ash we go for a pint next thing you know it's 2am and you're doing karaoke so it's kind of that doesn't happen anymore and it's only monday yeah that doesn't happen anymore because people work from home yeah so there's no need to go out so suddenly this this this kind of um lovely thing that happens when, you know, you just go with the flow and suddenly you're out and you're making new friends

and you're getting the night bus home with a kebab at 2am. That just doesn't happen anymore as much as it used to because of the work-from-home culture. And I'm just thinking about young people not going out and sort of what they're missing out on. For you and I, as people who were part of that generation, 90s generation going out, that human experience of being in that space.

Oh mate, it's unparalleled. Like I was having a chat with Nick Grimshaw on our podcast, Sidetracked, last week about it. And we were talking about what clubbing does for us, did for us. And it is so hard to articulate how clubbing can really change your life. It changed mine.

Exactly. Like I would not be here, hand on heart, I would not be here in this room with you now if I didn't go clubbing when I was 18, 19, if I didn't discover dance music, if I didn't think that music could be something that I could work in, that I could like pursue, that was important and life-changing and profound like all of those

things going to clubbing realizing the power of that kind of collective euphoria that you have on a dance floor where everybody is kind of moving and dancing to the same beat um it's like church it is church yeah it is church without the religion like it is that same kind of communion and seeing a dj do that to me was like okay i want to do what he's doing yes and it was a he and you did it was always a he until well and there's been a few there's a few there's a few she's including you and 17 years at radio one yeah um you know the the the dance music program and you defined for a whole generation what dance music was, you're their tastemaker, and then you decided that you'd had enough.

What happened? Yeah, well, a kind of few things happened. I discovered novel writing and that I really wanted to do that more. I didn't have enough time to do everything. I also had podcasting and wanted to really give that a go. But I think most of all, I think the underlying kind of emotional pull was the fact that I had kids at home that I hadn't put to bed or had dinner with,

you know, in the weeks for six years. And I wanted to be around in the evenings. So that was a kind of emotional pull. And then there was lots of practical reasons as well. Also, 17 years is plenty, let's be honest. It's a good stint, isn't it? Yeah, it's a good stint. But you, and so you carried on DJing, but then you came up with this concept yeah for midnight and it was only 2022 yeah so so

basically in covid for the first time in my life i didn't dj in nightclubs for a few years and i really what you know when you stop doing something is only when you can really get a sense when you've got to remove from it of what it was like so it was only when I stopped that I realized kind of how disruptive and dislocating the DJ lifestyle is when you're up on the M1 every weekend you know I always wanted to come home I didn't want to stay over and have to get back from Newcastle on a Sunday afternoon so what time were you leaving the clubs then after six in the morning yeah so you'd be getting home like I have like vivid memories of lying in the back of cars with my duvet and my pillow I always brought my duvet my pillow so I could sleep very good and being kind of nudged awake by the speed bumps of London and then

waking up and it's daylight you know and you're like okay so it's a new day I now have to get into bed for two hours and then be a parent for the day and that's just I just didn't feel like it was sustainable so after Covid when all the clubs were opening, I thought to myself, I don't think I can go back to this. And I don't know what I can do to kind of sustain a DJ career. So I genuinely kind of wrote it off in my head. I thought, I'm just not going to be able to do this anymore. And then I thought, well, maybe I can make it work for me. Did you miss it?

I did miss it. Yeah, of course. And I thought, here's the thing. Every other bit of culture, be it music, be it theatre, be it dance, we can go out and we can watch it between the hours of, say, 7, 8 and 11. Why can't you do that with dance music? It's so popular. It's so huge.

So all I did was kind of shift the parameters of what nightclubs are. They're normally open at 11. They finish at 3, 4, 5. So I moved it forwards from 7 to midnight it's still a night party it's not a day party it's still a night party it's just earlier so you can go and have something to eat yeah go along have a dance and be home yeah before midnight what was the first one like you did it as a one-off oh my god it was I was so nervous about it it was my idea I brought it to my agent and my management and all that. And they kind of facilitated me, if you know what I mean.

And I wasn't sure what to expect. It was so life affirming because of the people. We all know that a party is made by the people in it, right? It doesn't matter how posh or how nice or whatever. The people make the party. So the crowd was so diverse. We had old gay couples. We had mothers and sons, mothers and daughters. My father-in-law came, who's in his late 70s. Mel Brown, who was of everyone coming, being so grateful to be there. Sounds very wholesome. It is kind of wholesome, but then you have to kind of put it with the banging beats and the lights and so it kind of balances out.

Sweaty, sweaty and wholesome. Yeah, yeah. Why do you think they are so popular and so appealing to people? Because I think dancing is so profoundly important for our well-being and I think a whole generation of people have grown up in a country, you know, with Acid House and with this explosion of dance music, a country that has kind of led the world

when it comes to clubbing and club culture. And they don't want to stop, but they haven't felt like clubbing was serving them or was a place that they were welcome. So suddenly you have these places where you feel welcomed, they're accessible for you in every way, and also you can get sleep, you can get on with your life and you're not compromised by it.

So I understand completely why people want to do it. And so now it's become a thing that you do regularly and they sell out rapidly. In fact, I remember, was it Saturday or Friday? It was Glastonburybury I walked past the other stage it was probably about the afternoon the sun was definitely out and you were on stage DJing and it was packed you just had hordes and hordes of people obviously I had a dance as I was walking past but I feel like you have ridden the wave because you've got a generation who have come

with you through your 17 years yes and now a lot of them are also kind of settling down and maybe have jobs where, or maybe they're getting a bit tired or maybe they have children or whatever or looking at what they've got in their pockets. And so actually they are coming to you because you're giving them exactly what they want. Yeah, it does feel like that in a way.

Like at the end of radio, my time at Radio 1, I used to get messages so often from people who'd grown up with me, gone to university, I mean, I'm so old, gone to university with me, had babies, and we're now dancing in the kitchen with their young children to the Friday night dance show. And all of the time, these people would say, this is my fix. This show is my fix of dance music. I love dancing, and I don't get to do it anymore. And that doesn't feel right to me that, you know, you have to do it at home with a radio show, like you should be able to go out and do this and feel feel good about it so yeah I think people have grown up with me and

they do feel like these parties and the other day parties you know it's not just mine are places where you can feel safe you can go pregnant you a lot of people come to my raves postpartum it's their first night out after a baby or something like that so there's a real sense of being safe and being looked after yeah Yeah, and you're competing with so many other things, aren't you? And like you say, people don't have a huge amount of money to spend. So when they choose to spend it wherever,

you've got to make sure that they're having their money's worth. Right. Because disposable income isn't just as much, people don't have as much as they used to. But they are spending it in other sort of leisure spaces, escape rooms, ice cream parlours.

Yeah. These types of places that close at a reasonable hour. They're all thriving. I think it's also, you know, why festivals are so popular, because you can go in the daytime and have a fab time and leave at 8pm. You know, I think it's all about, yeah, just being able to do fun things in the daytime. I don't understand really why those other leisure things are popular. I think drink has a lot to do with it and sober culture. And a lot of people now just don't drink like they used to.

It's not part of our culture. Like we grew up with magazines where the front cover is people falling out of nightclubs. That was literally it. That's not the case anymore. You know, it's not aspirational to be wasted. I know. And there's a part of me that's really sad about that. But then I'm like, why am I sad about the fact that we're not stumbling around in the middle of the

night anymore? And there's a generation of women who want to feel safe. This is good. Trust me, let me tell you something, Anita. There's still women who stumble about at night before midnight. You know, they are wild. That's the thing. Like these people, they have it in their diaries for months. They have the childcare book. They have the WhatsApp group made. They are going out and they are having a good time. I have to say, Tiani, and you know about this, but Asian kids have been doing day timers since the 90s. Yeah.

Because we figured out, well, our parents weren't going to let us out after night, after dark. It didn't even have to be dark. The minute you're in from school, you're in. So we just created daytime raves during lunch hours. You made it work for you. So you find your space, you find the time. Right. Yeah, that's fascinating.

So where do you go from now? So you've written books. You've started this new daytime, you know, raving before and getting into bed at a reasonable hour. So what's happening next? More writing, new novel underway, doing my podcast with Grimmie every week on music, which we love,

and just writing on Substack and carrying on with Before Midnight. And not tired. And not tired. It's really nice. Yeah. It's really nice. It's lovely to not be tired.

More power to you, Annie. Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure. And you can hear more from Annie, as she's just mentioned, on the BBC Pop Culture Podcast, Sidetracked with Annie and Nick. That's with Annie Mack and Nick Grimshaw. Available every Thursday on BBC Sounds. Thank you.

I'll see you on the dance floor. 84844 is the number to text. I'm going to read a couple of more messages. Day raves are such a game changer. I'm 36 and my fiance is 56. We love nothing more than a seven hour nonstop boogie to drum and bass. As long as it's all over by 10,

what's not to like? In bed by midnight and feel fresh as a daisy the next morning, Holly and Neil. I went to Annie Mack's Before Midnight show at Brixton Academy in November with a bunch of uni friends. Like us, the crowd was about 90% women in their 30s and 40s and the vibe was amazing. When we arrived at 8.30, already felt like 2am. Keep your thoughts coming in.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. service the con caitlin's baby it's a long story settle in available now now at some point in our lives most of us will experience some form of loss but it's um it's inevitability doesn't make going through it any easier after actor anna maxwell martin spoke on

the program a few weeks ago about the grief she experienced after her husband died suddenly in 2021, we were inundated with you, our listeners, writing in with your own experiences. So this morning, two of them, two of you, Giselle de Haas and Heather Ashley, join me in the studio to talk about how they manage their grief day to day, along with Dr Shelley Gilbert, the founder and president of Grief Encounter and a consultant psychotherapist who's on hand to offer some professional advice. Morning to all of you and welcome. Before I talk to you, if it's okay, I'm going to read your original tweets out.

Yours first, Giselle. You wrote in and said, I found my mother's body at the age of 19. She was an alcoholic. And so although it was hugely traumatic, no one came to my aid and I had a younger sibling to care for. I had no one to say, it's okay, I've got you. And so I needed to just find a way of getting through it. I'm now 57 and still really struggle inwardly, but outwardly, I'm the picture of health and radiance. And we'll come to you in a moment. And Heather, your message to the program was, I lost my husband suddenly over two years ago.

Our boys were only 12 and 14. My advice to others offering support is to listen. Say, I'm here for you. Don't refer to your own past experiences unless it's exactly the same situation. Even then, how we experience grief is personal. Also, no, no matter how clear and rational your thoughts are, they're not. Well, they weren't for me.

Thank you, both of you, for messaging the programme. So, Giselle, you were only 19. How does a 19-year-old cope? Oh, goodness, where do I start? First of all, I want to say thank you to everybody that's replied to my little short thing there it's incredible to hear so many amazing replies. How do I cope? How did I cope back then in a very different way than I cope now but my coping strategy now is exercise, a healthy diet and barely any alcohol. I mean, the odd little bit here and there. But for me, it's all about health, well-being, being in nature, being able to feed myself with all sorts of amazing natural things.

So nature is so important to me, to be out in the elements, to walk, just to be in the countryside and to try and row, which is my amazing thing that I love doing now. But what kind of support did you have? You said you had a younger sibling to look after. No support at all, unfortunately. Back at that time, no support. I actually had to foster the sibling so that they wouldn't get taken into care.

At the time, I mean, we're talking late 80s, there was very little emotional support or help at all for someone like me. And you kind of would just pale into insignificance and it was almost as if it hadn't really happened. But dealing with it, you kind of just got over it and you just, it was just, you know, get on with everyday life and just sort yourself out because it will be, you know, you've just got to get on with it. You have to keep going and I guess that's the strategy that I've adopted for the most part of my life because I've kind of learned to just get on with stuff and do stuff I have a successful business I'm an architectural designer so for me it's all about yeah work. So what happens to the grief? The grief it kind of gets it subsides a little bit daily because you kind of get busy with stuff and you find yourself dealing with all sorts of things and packing your day, ensuring that you have enough time in the day to keep yourself fit, to be healthy, to see your friends and to carry on with work and business.

So that's now? That's now. What about the 19 year old? Yeah. Well, in a way, I guess the 19-year-old's still here and she's still dealing and coping with stuff. The grief doesn't ever really go away, but you learn strategies,

you learn how to kind of live with it, to be in the moment and to accept. For me, also helping others. I think that's been a big part of my life, to try and help other people, to try and understand other people around me and also to be grateful. I teach my daughter daughter and I have done all of her life to be grateful for what she does have to be grateful for small tiny little things that other people in this hugely sort of busy world

may take for granted really important to to try and be grateful for what you do have Heather I'm going to bring you in as well because you lost your husband only two years ago yes a huge shock wasn't it yes it was it was massive it came from came from nowhere um husband had just started a new job he was a fast jet pilot or a successful fast jet pilot and it was his it was his first day actually flying the jet and um someone had sent me a message to say is Dave okay and whenever I got that message straight away and he hadn't replied to me so there was the alarm bells were starting to go anyway because we were in constant communication and then the doorbell went and I knew what happened well I just sort of saying so I opened the door and I'm in the military we've been through conversations in the past because he was

active on the RAF so he's been active on detachments and there is this protocol that you do, you give someone your details so if anything was to happen he said to me, if anything was to happen Heather I don't want you getting a phone call I want you, someone being there

in person and that's exactly what happened I opened the door and I didn't know who they were but they told me what had happened and of course my world just fell apart You can take your time but you know it's funny because you sometimes

reflect because sometimes it's too painful going back into those situations but sometimes you need to and so going back and I definitely felt very much that I was looking in someone else's life it wasn't me you know the pain was just unbearable but then you go into automatic pilot don't you and I've got my two boys so you know I had to be there to um and they were they were 12 and 14 yeah and you had to talk to them yeah so when you say

automatic pilot what does that mean it means i needed to to find strength i needed to find deep strength and um of course always come from a place of love because i mean no one knows a greater love than love for their children and um so i just needed to be there just to support them and guide them in any way that I could be, which I did. And I just, at the time, I just kind of went into automatic pilot. I had certain things I had to do. So I had to focus on certain tasks in hand that I needed to do in terms of repatriation. And there was all that side of it as well. And it was around, this was a moment for me, I did recognise this is a moment for me.

I need to honour my husband and give him the best possible service that I can do. So that was my focus at that time. Giselle, what was it like in the early days after your mother died? Oh goodness, again, you kind of just learn to live with this and just crack on with stuff. And the everyday practicalities kind of kick in about how am I going to earn a living, how am I going to pay the rent. I was able to take over the council house that my mother had at the time otherwise we would have been homeless and which sadly as a family we were in the 1970s anyway we found ourselves homeless before we were able to gain this social housing but luckily I was able to take that on. I had a very meagre salary at the time

I'd just finished art college and I'd started work in in London so the practicalities of feeding us living paying the bills I actually don't know how I did it now when I look back how did I with no help from anybody literally live um maybe it's a bit of autopilot. I literally don't know. At the age of 19, 20, when you're dealing with all of this, I mean, how do you? It's inconceivable that I could have gotten through what I did and come out of it alive. I'm going to bring in Dr. Gilbert here, who's listening intently. What do you think of what you've heard so far, the autopilots that people have to go into? I mean, I spent my working life hearing the voices of bereaved children and families like we've been hearing.

And thank you, Anita, for bringing this to the front face. It's amazing. And thank you, Giselle and Heather. And what you're saying is so, so accurate, both of you. And I know that because I was orphaned at nine years old. And I was involved, like Giselle was, at getting on with it, getting over it, keeping my story silent. And, you know, I just hope that people don't make that mistake again that I've made. I kept my story silent and there were lots of reasons for that. And we kept our, as with

Heather, kept our trauma inside. And it's not too late. So that's the message. Not too Ac, fel gyda Helen, roedden ni wedi cadw ein trawmau yn eu penodol. Ac nid yw'n ddod yn ddod yn ddod, felly dyna'r neges. Nid yw'n ddod yn ddod yn ddod i wneud rhywbeth amdano. Ac yr hyn rydyn ni'n ei wneud, fel cymdeithas, yn ymddangos yn gyffredinol, yw ail-ddychmygu ein meddwl am ymddygiad. Roeddwn i wedi cael fy nghymryd gyda'r safonau ymddygiad. Mae'n dal i fod yn y cyfnod cyffredinol. I was brought up with the stages of grief. It's still in the common domain that grief isn't like that. It's not in nice, neat stages or tasks. And I've written a model of grief.

It's called the upward spiral of grief, which reflects the traumatic impact. It's traumatic. It's tragic, what's happened to us. sy'n ymddangos at yr effaith trawmol. Mae'n trawmol, mae'n tragedig, beth sydd wedi digwydd i ni. A'r hyn sydd angen ei hapus, a'r pwynt ail i mi, yw bod yn cael ei hapus gan ymrwymiad yn y ffordd iawn, yn y amser iawn,

gyda'r wybodaeth cywir. A dyna wedi bod fy misiwn o bywyd, i gael y wybodaeth hwnnw allan, i roi llyfrau i blant, And that's been my mission of life, to get that information out there, to give children a voice, unlike I didn't have, and to do that in creative ways. And there's different ways, spoiler alert, it's all in my grief book. I was inspired to write the grief book because I was hearing the voices of children and young people and grown-ups we're clever at disguising that and grown-ups and hearing the same myths repeated time and time again that we're expected to get over it yeah I wonder how Heather you're talking to your boys how you spoke to your boys about it at the time

and how you talk to them now. Well, we talk. I mean, we very much make Dave, you know, he's still alive. You know, we love to share the stories and the laughter. And, you know, it's really important to celebrate the time that we did have. But it's also okay to fail. It's okay to cry and release.

And especially having two boys, two teenage boys can be a challenge in themselves but never mind them having to face the loss and the hurt that they've had, that it's okay to cry. So important. So important. And let them feel that. Yeah, that there's power there. So all I can do is just through talking and going gently because again what

i'm seeing through them they are dealing with things in their own way as we all do we cope in whatever way that we can um in your message heather you wrote that you offered some advice on what we shouldn't say to people experiencing loss talk talk us through that yeah it's interesting because of course you know that most people have their best your best interest at heart but some of the things they just sort of want to show their sympathy and empathy and quite often they'll relate to a similar or the way they see it's a similar situation but no matter you know even in case of a pet you know I've lost my dog you know you can't you can't possibly you know you can't possibly

compare and also everyone's grief is different how you know the same as you Giselle the way you approach your the way you wherever your grief is very different to the grief that I had and and I've have I've had other losses in my life as well so I just I would just say don't don't um just listen and be there to offer support. I think mine differs slightly in that mine I was so much younger so for me it's about dealing with it now really because I've come to more of a realization as I had my daughter that was the first time it really affected me having a child. Oh explain what happened? Well I don't exactly know why but I was absolutely fine until I had my daughter Freddie when I was 32 and then suddenly my world seemed to just fall apart. I'm not sure if it was the

realisation that I had some other little beautiful soul to look after and to inspire and to bring into this world in a lovely way. Or whether it was because the realisation that I had no one to help me, no one around. And I actually had to be responsible for this thing that just sort of landed with me. And I think that, you know, learning to understand grief as you grow older, it takes, as the lady was saying, it takes on different kind of avenues the older that you get. For me, I've been able to write.

I found writing enormously cathartic and I've got 100,000 words down now in a book that I've sort of started writing and I need to go back and re-edit. But for me, writing was incredible. It gave me a real purpose and a real passion and made me think. But I just want to say that the guilt that I felt around finding my mother's body and her death will never leave me. Yeah. And that's what we try and do at Grief Encounter is to give you different people the opportunities to find your voices, to find the words, any kind of app that we can find.

We use all different kinds of creative therapies. And we play and we create. And I don't want anyone to go away with thinking we can't do this in a fun way. We can. I'm really, really, really, really big on bringing humour. And it's a very dark sense of humour, but we bring humour into what we do. And what we do at Gr about generally speaking is mainly mainly about the third sort of soapbox of mine at the moment is about memory making

people say how can we do that this person's died and we can we really can we can do that into the past memories we can do that for future memories and We can do that for the past memories. We can do that for future memories and we can do it for present memories. And we can do that privately or we can do it more publicly. And there are chances, like, for example, Remembrance Days, where we get together with other bereaved people. Can you relate to what's being said? I absolutely can and for me revisiting parts of my mother's childhood because I'm half Belgian, my mother was Belgian, luckily

have an amazing relationship with my auntie who lives in Antwerp and the photographs and the memories of her childhood and what I've been able to kind of put piece together from her life you kind of think you know are there any similarities with what I've done with my life in terms of the creativity that my mother was doing on me yeah hugely my mother was

extremely creative and luckily for me this is my vocation and this is where I get creativity from which I thrive off and what does that do for your grief and how you manage it I'm not sure what that does for my grief but I get an, an enormous amount of satisfaction from producing beautiful homes for my clients, designing houses from literally from the slab up. For me, it's so important to be able to, I mean, it's also quite ironic because I grew up in a council house and I now design, you know, beautiful houses for clients that come from nothing. So to me, that's my vocation and that's the creativity that I gained from my mother. And Heather, with your children being so young when their father died, how did you balance caring for them and also making sure that you were caring for yourself as well? Oh, that's so, they came first and foremost. But then it's like a double-edged sword.

You've got to, you can't be strong and be there for them and be your best self if you're not looking after yourself. So I had already had some pretty good foundations in terms of self-care because I'm a transformational coach as well. And I just qualified as a Wim Hof method instructor. So I'd already been practicing that. So for me personally, afterwards, it was about routine. I needed to keep to routine because, you know, when everything goes away, it's coming back to your circle of influence, what you can control. Well, I can control my self-care. That's where Giselle started. You're in control of your own body, your own destiny, if you like, because you're not going to let yourself fall into lethargy. And, you know, for me, I think that control thing, I mean, it's a good and a bad thing. But for me, it feels good that I can exercise, that I can have a healthy diet, look after myself.

Which is great. And your message that you sent us, Giselle, you said, I'm 57. I still really struggle inwardly, but outwardly I am the picture of health and radiance which you are so what do you do about the internal struggle then how do you deal with that? Well I can just kind of speak to that a little bit actually because what I was I had a real realization earlier this year when I did kundalini for the first time I'd never tried it before. Type of yoga yeah. Yeah and it was a breath work and it just hit me and I realized that actually I had been carrying the grief for my boys and not really learned to grieve myself.

And I've been doing that through some somatic work and we were talking about that as well. So I'm really going down the somatic. Yeah, that's about holding your trauma in your body and it's taken me 30 years to get there. So well done both of you. Well, on that note, we've introduced another thought, somatic work, but we haven't got time to unpack it right now. So we might have it we've introduced another thought somatic work but we haven't got

we haven't got time to unpack it right now so we might have to like do that on another program but i want to thank you both of you for for reaching out to us for messaging the program for feeling so moved by what you heard um and then the reaction that we got from your messages and then to come in and talk to us thank you for your time uh giselle and heather and also thank you to you dr shelly gilbert thank you lots of you getting in touch about this as well lots of your messages coming in carmen says i lost my dad at 19 to bowel cancer i detonated my life i'd been very focused at uni i started drinking excess excessively taking drugs binging uh very very bad men i thought if i pushed it far enough dad might come back at 36 I wrote a semi-autobiographical novel.

Only then did I realise what I risked and what I lost. My heart goes out to all on their grief journey. Every time we go through a change, the grief is there to test us. Please keep your messages coming through. 84844 is the number to text. Now, on to my next guest, the artist. Shaila Kamari Singh Bman creates kaleidoscopic paintings prints etchings moving images all inspired by her indian heritage she was born in bootle in

merseyside studied at the slade school in the early 80s she uses materials like bindis and ice cream cones in her installations we'll find out why in a minute uh you might remember she lit up the facade of tape britain in her neon in 2020 that was an amazing moment she says she aims to challenge stereotypes and create an alternative perspective of Britishness and this year she celebrates four decades of creations with an eponymous book and her latest exhibition Neon Dreams is on at the Holborn Museum in Bath but the largest exhibition of her work to date is on at Compton Verney in Warwickshire. And I'm delighted to say she joins me now. Wonderful to have you on Woman's Hour.

You've got a lot going on, haven't you? I know. Well, great to be here, Anita. I think it's well long overdue, isn't it? Really is. To have a wrap. Yes. Yeah, it's great. I'm made up for, you know,

women's hour to invite me and you yourself, yeah. I'm going to read... So I have got a lot on. You have got a lot on. I know, I know. Well, I'm made up, you know women's how to invite me and you yourself yeah um i'm gonna read a lot on you have i know well i'm made up you know because it's taken over 40 years for them to recognize me and i've been doing it on my own after me so the whole world's after me and i mean about time and about time yeah you know open my phone and um i've i'm invited to do something nearly every day. What's happened then? What happens? Why has it taken this long?

Well, flipping it because, well, partly you've got institutionalised racism. You've got, you know, I don't know. The artwork can be a bit slow, you know, and I think they're much better now. But like 40 years ago, it was a bit slower. I don't know. Maybe they think I'm a bit wild or something, you know. But I mean, the Tate facade did put me on another level. Yeah.

That was an invitation. How did that come about then? I just got an email from the director of the Tate. And he just said, would you take on the Christmas winter commission which he eventually called the Diwali commission and that did put me

in the public realm because there was like 500 people outside every night You have been going, I didn't realise you've been going for 40 years, I didn't actually realise your age because you're so ageless Shaila Well don't you think a lot of us Asian girls are

There is that genetics thing but also your energy what kept you going if it took so long Probably my mum and dad have kept me going because I think we were brought up to be better than better you always had to be

better than best at up, you know, to be better than better. You know, you always had to be better than best at school. So, you know what, this is the only thing I'm good at. I think that's what kept me going. I wasn't any, I think I was, I think I was being given a gift, you know, God knows where that came from. And I just love being in my studio. You know, you're playing in your studio. What a great thing to be able to do. So, I don't know, that must have kept me going. I like swimming. That's kept me going. Oh, so you keep yourself fit.

Keep myself dead fit. Acupuncture keeps me going. Got great acupuncturists. But you're immensely talented because you went off and you studied, as I said, at the Slades and in Leeds and you got a first. First, yes. So the talent was there. and in Leeds and you got a first.

Yes. So the talent was there. But I want to take it back a bit more because I'm fascinated because for me personally, because it is personal, to meet someone, a Punjabi northerner lass who went to art college in the early 80s. I mean, you were an outlier. There couldn't have been many people who looked like you at art college at the time.

And not the expected path for you I imagine well no actually I was there in the 70s people call me an 80s artist but I was there in the 70s I was at Leeds in 1977 you know I'm very lucky because my mum and dad did not expect me to be a doctor or a lawyer like the traditional things you know they came over from India and they were just illiterate. They just wanted us to do well at school. You know, you come home and, you know, you change from your school uniform. Oh, so I pass 11 plus, that helps. So you come home and you chuck yourself out on the street. You play for about three, four hours.

You come home, you have your ruddy and sub-G. You know, you go to bed, you know, you wake up and you have your cup of tea, you're off to school. So, you know, it's like this, you know, you go to school, it's all English girls and you go to home, it's all Indian. So, I mean, and it's quite good that actually, because you sort of resent all that when you're growing up that, you know, English girls can have all this freedom. And then as you grow up you really appreciate that they brought you up with all the traditions because I use that my work constantly yes you do yes you do let's talk a bit about the work because it is absolutely fantastical your work I adore it and your book let's start with the book beautifully packaged neon pink uh live edge acrylic case. It glows on contact with the light source. Where does the brightness and the lightness and the use of neon and all full of colour. The ice cream van's all full of colour. You've

got all the deities full of colour. Surrounds me, the ice cream van, you know, all the stuff in the van, you know. Well, you say ice cream vans because your father had an ice cream van. My dad had an ice cream van. It was a magician as well. And a magician. He sounds cool. And a tailor. And my mum had her own corner shop after my dad gave up selling ice cream so I mean I'm always surrounded

by colour and um I don't know I mean don't exactly know where the colour comes in but I mean I don't know I think colour is quite important it does bring joy to our lives you know I mean I don't know I love you give me a box of crayons and I'm always going to go to the red and the yellows and the blues, you know. I've always liked colour. Our parents dressed us up in the most colourful outfits, didn't they? You have to admit, you know.

It's always OTT. Absolutely. If there wasn't a blue, that's a serious blue. There's no beige. There's no beige. No beige except our bras. Oh dear, that made me laugh. Tigers reoccur too.

Yeah. Tell me about the time. Because, you know, after the Tate facade, Netflix got in touch with me and asked me to make the film The White Tiger. And so that was a great gig, great commission. And that was, you know, a bit like my dad's story, similar. And then, you know, tigers, they are, you know, we need to protect them because they're still poached and stuff like that.

And I hadn't heard much about an actual white tiger. So then I've made several white tigers one is on show holborn and one is on the white tiger car which i've still got so i collect i've got i've also got a tiger the colored tiger on an ice cream van that went to the world cup in doha did your dad have a tiger on the top of his own ice cream van as well? How cool is that? Very cool. I mean, really ahead of his time, don't you reckon, to do that, you know, when everyone's putting Batman and Robin on, you know. I mean, he was, you know, he's quite brave to have done that during that time.

Do you think you get your bravery? Do you think you're brave to get it from them? I think so, because I was his princess. You know, I think in Indian families, a lot of parents, dads really like put their daughters right on a pedestal. Because some people say to me, where do you get this confidence from? And I don't think I've got that much confidence. But you do get it from your parents. You get it from somewhere.

Well, they brought us to this country to do really well. So you just do because, you know, it's been a struggle for them. Yes. Yes. What was it like at art college in the 70s then? Well, I mean... Because your work is political. Yeah.

Your existence. Do you have a choice in being political? Well, I mean, you know, the personal is political. I think, you know, we've got a lot of turbulence in the world at the moment. So you can't not address those issues. And I always have done because when I was at Leeds, it was, you know, it was the 1981 uprisings. So I did all lots of etchings, which are now in the Tate collection. And then and so I was probably doing unconsciously,

maybe political work then. And it's just continued. And then, you know, my brother used to date some white girls and then they were all like feminists. And I just think, well, there's such a thing as black feminist politics, you know, which, you know, no one really talked about. So what did you do? Where did you find your outlet? Well, I used to read all these books, these American publications by all these black women writers that were talking about black feminist politics because there was no material on us.

But then I met Mukti, the collective, when I first came to. And they took me under their wing and then I used to do lots of drawings and illustrations for them. And they were all, like, you know, very well read and I was doing all my drawings and stuff. What was that time like? It was, you know, it was quite tough, but having a bunch of, you know, South Asian women behind you to support you, you know, it's just fantastic. What more could I have asked for?

So, you know, it's also... I'm thinking what more could you have asked for? Maybe a recognition of your work back then? Well, I mean, you know, if you think about it, the Tate didn't really buy more work until years later, even though I had made them in 1981. And so years later, but, you know, obviously the money helps years and years later. But I mean, you know, you know, so be it. You know, I'm out there now, you know, suppose you could say I'm successful. I'm established. I've made it. The tape book's just fantastic. It is. You know, you you could say I'm successful, I'm established, I've made it.

The tape book's just fantastic. It is. You've got the nuance here. You've got 40 years of work in there, every single page. I suggested all the contributors. It's just superb. It's delicious and I'm very excited. I'm very excited.

Well, Compton Verney, this is the new work, this show in Warwickshire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's kind of full circle for you because your dad used to sell ice creams to the father of... Is it Sir John Moores? Oh, yeah. Well, John Moores lived down the road from where my dad's van was because he had a special patch, you know,

gave the National foot so much money. John had come down, you know, his house was just down the road, a huge mansion, really took care of me dad. You know, we'd chat for ages. I was only 16. I was sitting on the side of the van mashing up the corner, the corner boxes.

I used to see him, you know. And so the Compton Vernet is Peter Moore's estate. Yeah. And I'm good mates with James Moore's. And I've made hats for Cecil and John Moore's. That's quite poetic. So, yeah. So, I mean, I feel like the Moore's family had followed me or I followed them.

You know, I'm very lucky. Maybe your stories are just intertwined. Yeah. I mean, you know, shame I missed Peter Moorese because he only died in 2018, you know. But it's great to be connected. Also, I used to do the John Morse pools, so I probably made John Morse a bit rich, you know. Wonderful. Shaila, it's been such a joy speaking to you. Oh, absolutely amazing.

I can't believe the time's gone so fast. It has flown by. This is my fourth time on Women's Hour now. Not the last, though. No, no. We'll welcome you back any time. Yeah, OK. I'll come back next week. We'll look forward to it.

Shaila, thank you so much. All right, then. And Shaila's book, Shaila Berman, is out now, and it really is a feast for the eyes. Thank you to everybody who's been in touch. I'm sorry I wasn't able to read out all your messages, but I will be back tomorrow for more Women's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. One winter's night in 1974, a crime took place that would obsess the nation. We're still looking for Lucan all over the world. Lord Lucan is said to have killed the family nanny and to have attacked his wife before disappearing. Why has this, of all crimes, captured our imagination? It's partly that the evidence is so murky.

As I try to get to the bottom of the case, my preconceptions are blown apart. I mean, this is pretty weird stuff to have in a box, isn't it? What on earth is this for? The Lucan Obsession with me, Alex von Tunselman, from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.