Woman's Hour - Afghan women and the current peace talks

Episode Date: March 2, 2021

As International Women’s Day approaches and peace talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban continue, what are the most pressing issues facing women in Afghanistan? We hear from BBC Afghan reporter Mahjooba Nowrouzi and scholar and women’s rights advocate Dr Orzala Ashraf Nemat.We're missing hugs, but maybe we'll get them back soon. A retired nurse in Scotland has been able to give her elderly mother a big hug for the first time in five months. Fiona Scott went to see her mum, Mary Cook, who's 90 and in a care home in Scotland yesterday. It's because restrictions have been eased a bit in Scotland - now people can go and see the one they love, INSIDE a care home, and touch them. Fiona and sex and relationships columnist for the Times, Suzi Godson, join Emma.Actor Sue Johnston has spoken about the sexism older women face in theatre and screen. Johnston 77, has been cast as 61-year-old Sean Bean’s mother in Jimmy McGovern’s new BBC prison drama. Thirty years ago she played Sean Bean’s wife in a 1992 episode of Inspector Morse. Actor Dame Harriet Walter and film journalist and broadcaster Karen Krizanovich discuss why female actors age into older roles, while male actors remain in similar parts throughout their careers.Pregnant women who lose their babies should be given two weeks' paid bereavement leave, according to campaigners. At the moment, only women who lose their baby after 24 weeks are entitled to statutory leave. Taylor Moss, who had a stillbirth at 23 weeks, has started a petition to change the law after she was not entitled to any time off. Her campaign is being backed by Cherilyn Mackrory, the Conservative MP who co-chairs the baby loss All Party Parliamentary Group. Taylor discusses her experience of loss, her impetus for starting the petition and what she hopes to achieve.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Mahjooba Nowrouzi Interviewed Guest: Dr Orzaa Ashraf Nemat Interviewed Guest: Fiona Scott Interviewed Guest: Suzi Godson Interviewed Guest: Dame Harriet Walter Interviewed Guest: Karen Krizanovich Interviewed Guest: Taylor Moss

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. There was a photo published yesterday which may have caught your eye and stopped you in your tracks. It certainly caught ours. The sight of Fiona Scott hugging her 90-year-old mum Mary in a care home in Scotland. Both vaccinated and with rules easing in Scotland around care home visits and embraces, hugs are slowly coming back and into the places which have arguably needed them the most, care homes.

I'm going to talk to Fiona shortly in a moment about that moment. And we're going to also explore the importance of hugs and embraces and what they give to us. But how about you? Who is top of your hugging list? As and when you are allowed in particular circumstances, who can you not wait to wrap your arms around again? I mean, what have you been doing without those hugs? I tried this morning. I was told perhaps a self-hug is the way to go. It's quite hard and it's not that great.

But what have you been doing in lieu of that? Tell us who you can't wait to hug again, what it would mean to you and what it's taken from your life, really. 84844 is the number you need to text Women's Hour. Your text will be charged at your standard message rate or on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email us through your website,

our website and with your messages. I personally also find a very strongly brewed cup of tea like a hug in a cup. And apparently, just to bring you this extra bit of information, we've had an additional two billion cups of tea during the pandemic. That's according to new shopping data. So I'll leave you with that thought as well as you start getting your messages to us. Also on today's programme, we hear the latest on how women are influencing peace talks in Afghanistan and women's lives in Afghanistan generally and how they are. And the actor Dame Harriet Walter will be joining us on why women actors go straight from lover, it seems, to mother.

Now, a retired nurse in Scotland has been able to give her mum a big hug for the first time in months. Fiona Scott went to see her mother Mary who's 90 and in a care home in Scotland yesterday for a much needed embrace and in doing so encapsulated a real moment that so many have been longing for. It's because restrictions have been eased a little in Scotland now people can go and see the one that they love inside a care home and touch them. Fiona Scott's on the line. Good morning. Good morning.

Thank you so much for coming to talk to us today. I imagine it's all rather overwhelming. You know, you just want to go and see your mum. And yes, it's taken on this bigger significance. Yes, it has taken me by surprise. It has. I imagine many people, you know, there was footage as well as photos of that moment how was it for you? Well my main focus was on giving my mum a hug so regardless of all that was going on roundabout it was just my sort of time to give my mum a hug.

Now, that is just so important. We're a family that we're close and COVID has brought a lot of separation to our lives. So it was just lovely. How did it feel? It just felt lovely and warm. Yes, a lot of people already getting in touch with who they really want to give a hug to. You do have to, I noticed in the footage,

you were wearing very light PPE, so a face mask and an apron of sorts? No, what I was wearing was a mask, gloves and a full length gown Yes, but sorry, you weren't in, just to describe it for our listeners who haven't seen the footage You weren't in a full sort of visor, as in you were able to hug No, not in the way that people would be dressed in hospital But enough just to be a clean barrier Exactly, and washing of hands and checking, having a test first.

And we should say your mother's been vaccinated. She's had two vaccinations. She has. She just got her second vaccination last week. And I've had my vaccination, first vaccination. But having had Covid, I've probably got more immunity anyway. I was going to say, if you don't mind me bringing that up as well, because you talk about the year that has been. I mean, you yourself have really been through this, haven't you? Yes, I have. It's been a difficult year. Last March, I contracted Covid, which developed into a very serious illness.

And I was in an induced coma for three weeks and I had a 12-week hospital stay. So I know the side of life in which you're not visited by your relatives and your nearest and dearest and when you're very anxious about life. So I know from my own perspective just what that was like. Gosh, I'm so happy we're talking now and you're on the other side of that, firmly on the other

side of that, but it must give you a very different perspective to all of this. It does. And I would just like to say that really yesterday's meeting would not have been possible had not I received wonderful care at the Borders General Hospital Intensive Care Unit, they really have got a part to play in this as well, because without them, I wouldn't have survived. And I'm just so very grateful to NHS Borders and the Intensive Care Unit at Borders General Hospital. You yourself were a nurse and we should say that your mum mum Mary Cook who's 90 and in the care home is it right that she was a former is she a former matron of the care home she's now in? Yes she is she she was the matron there in the 19 late 70s and 80s and she was the maternity until she retired herself so my mum she has got

an insight into what care home life is about. Yes and she herself how is she tell us how she's doing? Well my mum has dementia and her short-term memory is not very good at all. But when she's given information at the time, she can process and rationalise things. But then, you know, five minutes later, she's probably forgotten what she was told. So it's very important for her to be able to see you and be kept up to date with what's going on, as well as having that physical touch now.

Absolutely, because it's the immediacy of somebody being there and being with you that's so important to my mum and to many other people that are in the care situation. They've been deprived of so much during this pandemic. Do you feel that when you had that hug yesterday and began being able to touch again, do you feel your mum benefited from it? Well, I think you've seen the photos in the paper. You can just see the delight on her face. And I realised that more when I saw the photographs

than at the time. She just looks so, so happy. Yes, she does. I think it would bring, if people haven't seen it, it will bring a tear to their eye because it certainly made me stop and think my goodness, how much people have been starved from each other during these times.

Absolutely. Let's bring in the Times' Sex and Relationships columnist Susie Godson, who knows a thing or two about our emotions and how we can tap into them perhaps when we haven't been able to do what we've been used to. Susie, what would you say about the importance of touch and hugs in particular? Well, it's fundamental to human well-being. Touch encourages the brain to produce serotonin, which is known as the feel-good neurochemical, and it also triggers the release of oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone,

and both of those reduce the amount of the stress hormone cortisol in our bodies. And cortisol works to suppress the immune system, so it's really, really bad for your health, whereas hugging and touch and oxytocin increase the production of immunoglobulin A, and that helps boost the immune system and increase the number of white blood cells in the body, in the blood, which protects us against illness. So actually, the absence of touch has a detrimental impact on our health and the most sort of obvious human experiment in this in this area was the Romanian orphans under Ceausescu who had no contact who were locked in their cots for months or even years. And when they did brain scans of those babies, their brains were substantially smaller.

And the length of time that they had been deprived of touch equated measurably to a percentage. It was three cubic centimetres less brain size per month longer that they had spent in the orphanage. So, you know, they can measure the impact of this kind of deprivation. However, in terms of care homes, I would say that, you know, people who work in care homes are fully aware of the importance of touch and they will have been holding hands and stroking arms and encouraging that kind of contact because everybody is aware of how awful it is to be deprived of relatives. Well I mean a hug's taken on a whole new meaning now I know there's so much science attached to it I thought I was just missing you know that sort of little

buzz that you get but thank you for explaining what is actually going on behind the scenes and that there is so much going on. I mean, we've got so many messages here coming in. You know, for instance, from Angie, who says, I can't wait to hug my husband, who's in a nursing home, has advanced Alzheimer's. He doesn't know me behind glass and PPE. If I could hold him, it would make a world of difference.

I visited him every day. The man I married at 17 and COVID has torn us apart. Another one here from Aisling. Thank you for sharing that. I can't wait to hug my mum and dad again. They live in Ireland. I haven't seen them for a year. Currently eating ginger biscuits that my mum baked and sent over and each bite makes me imagine the day we'll be together again and able to hug. I don't think I'll ever want to let go. A lovely one here. My daughter's 15 months old. Her sixth word and first two syllable word was cuddle, which she said for the first time three days ago. It's a pretty

good one to start with. Susie, I mean, just in terms of how people have been, do you think, sort of coping without it? I mentioned my pathetic attempt at a self-hug this morning, which people can see on social media if they care to. But the is people are really craving it aren't they yes they are and i mean they're you know even though you didn't think that a self-hug was helpful they're actually touching yourself can help it stimulates the nerve endings there are all sorts of things that you can do so um massaging moisturizer into your skin or oils or hugging your pet, the pet's heartbeat. In Japan, they have cushions with inbuilt heartbeats for people who are lonely to cuddle. Warmth is really good. So a hot water bottle with a furry cover on it um in the 1950s there was experiments by a psychologist called harry harlow

who did these really horrible experiments with little baby rhesus monkeys and when they had a kind of a robot monkey mother covered in soft fur or food and they got to choose between the two and the baby monkeys would choose the soft fur robot mother over feeding themselves because our need for that kind of comfort is so great. Everybody from animals to humans. So if you're isolated or shielding, everything, a warm shower, rubbing your temples or between your eyes, all of these things that can help you to relax are worth doing.

Doing that right now, the temple one. Yeah. I think we can do that. Okay, I'll get better at the self-hug, I promise. And I was only saying my own attempt wasn't very good. I have read and heard before that those things are really important. And I'm very aware, especially with what we do here on the radio, you know, that we're friends to people and that the radio is a real comfort for people,

especially those who are living alone or not. But Susie, thank you so much for giving us some ideas and thoughts there. That's Susie Godson. Fiona Scott, final word to you. Lovely to have you on Women's Hour today and on the programme with us. What would you like to say to anybody who's still really looking forward to it? Anything you want to kind of leave us with? You've, of course, paid tribute to those who looked after you. Yes, and I would also like to pay tribute

to those that look after my mum in Queen's House in Kelso. They've been fantastic and the manager there who's leaving this week, Dr Jane Douglas, I would like to thank her very much for her forward thinking and making yesterday possible as well, because care homes have got to be managed in a way that will facilitate. All of those steps that you had to go through. Exactly. Yes, and Cathy Russell's doing a wonderful job for Care Relatives Scotland. We'll have to leave it there. But Fiona, thank you for your time. And please pass our best to your mum, Mary. I will do. Thank you very much. Hugging messages still coming in.

I will return to them very shortly. But as International Women's Day approaches and peace talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban continue today, what are the most pressing issues facing women in Afghanistan? And who are the women around the negotiating table? I'm joined now by BBC Afghan reporter Mahduba Narrazi and Women's Rights Advocate and Senior Associate Fellow at the Royal United Services Institute, Dr. Uzala Ashraf Namaj. Mahduba, if I could come to you first, what would you say are the main issues facing women

in Afghanistan in their daily lives right now? How could you put us in that picture? If I said shorten it, it's basically mainly peace, security is the main issue that they're facing at the moment. And obviously, lack of job opportunities. And I mean, only yesterday, we had a report about increasing domestic violence as well. And we reported that 136 women were murdered only last year in domestic violence, which shows a 50% increase compared to the year before. And security, domestic violence and lack of job opportunities and many more issues. But these are the main ones that I can remember. Yes, I know you've been looking at women's experiences, in particular ahead of International Women's Day next week.

And the employment side of it's really important, isn't it? It is. I mean, I have spoken to four different women from different walks of life, and they all have only one goal and one message. And that's the women's right. We want our basic right. So I have spoken to one police officer who was shot by gunmen and she was injured. She's an actor and also a police officer. And also I have spoken to an influencer on social media and she gets abuse on a daily basis from people who do not want to move on with time. And she wants to advocate for women to be free on social media as well. And I have spoken to another woman who's also a victim of domestic violence, but she doesn't call herself a victim

because she has been shot in the face and she's scarred for life, but she's still campaigning for victims of domestic violence and she calls herself a hero because she says that I'm not, I will not shy away from my scars and i'm going to advocate for these women and also i've spoken to uh photojournalists and artists and that they show they challenge the lack of presence of women in some uh social gatherings

in afghanistan and because when you go to afghanistan in some parts gatherings in Afghanistan. Because when you go to Afghanistan, in some parts of Afghanistan, you don't see women at all. You question yourself, where are they? So she's challenging that as well, which is very good stories. And we have to wait and see. Yes, no, no, we look forward to hearing more about them. But thank you for giving us an insight. Dr. Ozala, to come to you, in terms of these peace talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban, which are continuing today, I mean, you have personal experience of living under the Taliban. The Taliban say they're not opposed to women being educated and being in public life, as we were just hearing about, within Islamic law. Do you believe them? Thank you. I think it's really difficult to believe someone who has ruled a kind of a government like the Taliban,

with a particular historical record that they have in terms of not being very honest in terms of their intentions versus their practices. When Taliban took over in 96, they came as the peacemakers, as forces who will take us out of corruption and abuses that were made by the civil war, you know, the Mujahideen fighters. Very soon after they took the control of the country, we witnessed the horror across the country from amputation events in every street to, you know, stoning women to death and all of that. So a force that took the leadership of the country and ruled for six years only toppled after the international military intervention,

now coming and simply saying that we will give the rights to women. First of all, women in Afghanistan operated like myself. I didn't live in Afghanistan physically at that time. I was traveling there as a refugee from Pakistan, but I was running underground home-based classes. And as someone who worked back then under that situation, I'm confident there are now, maybe at that time we were a few, a bunch or a handful, but now there are thousands of women who will continue to fight for their rights, for ensuring that there will be education for girls and so forth. So for us, the practices show that it's really difficult to trust the

Taliban's intention. They have to prove that in practice, they haven't been able to do that. They say we believe in support women's rights, but there is zero representation in the peace talk from the Taliban side. The Afghan peace negotiation has four women, all of them with a long history of working on women's rights issues. But we have seen zero women to begin with. It's not necessary to only have like some rented woman there and say, here are the women representing us. We want a genuine, you know, act from their side. Does that give you, just to come in on that point, I know that you're talking about the Taliban side, they're having zero women, but on the Afghan side to have those four women, and I've been reading up on those women this morning,

does that give you a sense of hope around making sure that those women, as you say, who are going to continue fighting anyway for their rights and doing as you did so bravely under the Taliban, does that give you hope that that will continue? Is it a sort of insurance? Well, without any doubt, you know, we live to we live on the basis of hopes, you know, and feeling positive for future, despite the fact that things are really, really bad in Afghanistan at the moment. There are target killings since last year targeting specifically women's rights activists, human rights activists. And it's not a very good news for Afghanistan and for Afghan women. But I'm hopeful because I believe in the strength of women and those four women standing, sitting, in fact, in front, opposite to the Taliban on the negotiation table. My desire and my wish for those women is not to beat them for our rights. It's to make them realise that Afghan women, their public role must be accepted as a reality of the present time.

It's not something to be for negotiation, but it's a reality that we expect the Taliban to accept. And that should be, as you say, how it is moving forward and to be accepted. Thank you for that, Dr. Uzala Ashraf Nemat. To give a final word to you, Makhduba, there are these two new libraries where women have been memorialised, women killed in bombings in Kabul and elsewhere have been commemorated. Could you tell us about that? Well, in 2017, there was a massive bombing and a young girl was killed while she was taking university entry exams. And her family and relatives built a foundation called Rahila Foundation in a name to honor her. And also there was another,

after a year, another bombing. In Afghanistan, there's bombing every day, I'm afraid. And there was another woman, she was a very well-educated, very well, I mean, she had lots of achievements in her life and she was killed on the way to work. And her fiance, they were to get married soon. And her fiancé built a library in Daikundi who get killed in Afghanistan every day, lost their lives. But now their memories are helping lots of other young generation in Afghanistan.

Thank you for that. And I'm sure it's an issue to which we will return. BBC Afghan reporter there, Mahduba Narusi. And you were just listening to the Senior Associate Fellow at the Royal United Services Institute, Dr Uzala Ashraf Namat. Now, a few years ago, the actor Cate Blanchett wryly noted that actresses age in dog years. Now, the Royal Family star, Sue Johnston, who's 77, has spoken out about how older women are treated in the TV and film industry after being cast in a new drama

as Sean Bean's mum, having played his wife 30 years ago. Would he ever be cast as her senior, her father? Yes, there is an age difference in terms of her being older than him slightly, but you take the point. Why do female actors go straight from lover to mother while male actors remain in similar roles throughout their careers? I'm joined now by the actor Dame Harriet

Walter and Karen Krusanovich, film producer and broadcaster. Harriet, if I could start with you, what's your take when you read about the journey from mother or lover rather in this instance to mother? Well, it's a very familiar story actually, but I'm glad it sort of hit hit the news however long it takes I have to say that after hearing about women's rights or the absence of them in Afghanistan I feel this is not a major issue but it is connected in that the way we value people is is how we present them on screens and it's very influential on the way we're perceived. And so the stories we tell do have ripples outward. I hope that connection is there. I think the fact, my experience is that one is usually cast in relation to a man.

So you're either the daughter, the wife, the mother, the sister, the grandmother. And so when you're being cast, it's not just as a woman, when you're being cast, it's not as a woman and you're being cast it's not just are you capable of playing this part but could you be so-and-so's mother or could you be so-and-so's wife or are you old enough to be their daughter it's always in relation to a male character I have to also say that it's so much better now that I'm sitting here over over granny stage and getting really great parts because sort of somehow when you get out of this sort of are you attractive are you sexual object phase you you can find a new life beyond that

in a sort of rather asexual older age which is another kind of lie because we're not asexual but there you go it's something to be employed so So I think one of the problems is that you are, you know, whereas a man is often playing a job on screen, which he can do at any decade. The women are too closely tied up with the family bond and how they relate to that man. And that's the sort of way it's it's cast and spun out. Karen, I see you nodding there already in agreement with that. Do you think we are getting, you know, it is better, as Harriet was saying, and we'll come on to perhaps how she's experienced that in a moment, but do you think it's changing?

I think it is changing. I think that watching women as people in movies is is changing we're allowing um actors to to have different variety of different variety of roles you don't have to be a wife or a mother or a grandmother or a carer you can you can be something dynamic and you don't have to as a woman anyway uh be related to anybody else. That is beginning to change. Although if we look at films like Nomadland, I'm just wondering how many people are going to go and see that, even though it's an incredibly important, interesting film.

Where's the sexuality? Where's the beauty? We've got to see that there are more stories to tell than that. You're, of course, bringing that up because of the big win at the Golden Globes in case people are thinking, hang on, I don't even know I'm meant to be seeing that. So that's why that's perhaps in more people's minds at the moment. Harriet, you talk there about something which I think is really important to place in the world we're in at the moment, the importance of being employed.

And of course, we're coming out, we hope, of a global pandemic. Do you think it's important to ever turn roles down, though, if you don't agree with the way it's being put to you? Because by turning it down doesn't mean it will stop the production from going ahead. Have you ever done that, Harriet? It is a tricky one. There's so many questions. First of all, it's a big luxury to turn down a job. I mean, there is sort of 90% of our profession are out of work most of the time. And so and of that working percentage, a very small percentage of female. So it's a luxury to be able to say, I'm not going to do this. I have been known to turn something down. Well, certainly

I've turned things down, that I just didn't feel I could comfortably exist with that character in the way it was portrayed. But more helpful is if you can get in on the creative side and try and influence the way it's portrayed and perhaps change some of the lines or or include yourself in a scene where you were excluded. And I was just going to say, we're seeing that, aren't we? Perhaps some of the change with who's making drama now. And you recently having played that brilliant role in Killing Eve, you know, that's created by a largely female team, isn't it? Absolutely. I've done so much more work recently that has come out of the minds of young women and directed by young women. And when I say young, you might not think they're young,

but in their 30s and 40s. And that has had a difference in the way we function and the way we're listened to and the way and sort of a kind of trust that you know that they have similar ideas about how a woman should be perceived and have much more sort of left field ideas about a woman because they're coming from their own experience as being a 360 degree person. And so, you know, I think that's really altering things. Yes, I mean, just to say, if you haven't seen Killing Eve, you played Dasha, a former assassin coach.

And there is a scene, I think if I'm right here, where you go and take a baby and go and put it in the bin while while they're making some noise and that's not something you necessarily associate with anyone but especially a woman she's not a role model I have to say you know do as I say not as I do but um yeah no it's it's a great sort of a great sort of um what's the word, sort of transgressive kind of act. You know, a woman throwing a baby in a bin. It's the point that women don't always have to be likable, predictable, everything that you perhaps superimpose onto them in all those ways.

Yes. Well, Karen, to you, to bring you back in on this, do you think that there was an interesting conversation between Sue Johnston and Sean Bean when she rocked up as his mum, having been his wife? How do you imagine that went down, Karen? Oh, I'm glad that Sue spoke up about it. I mean, this has been endemic in Hollywood and storytelling throughout.

I mean, Sally Field was playing Tom Hanks' love interest. Then it was his mother in Forrest Gump, you know, and I was looking, actually last night I tweeted, does anybody know the reverse of this? Has there ever been a man who was, you know, the lover, then the father, and nobody could come up with anything. Well, I also didn't know the age difference between Anne Bancroft and Dustin Hoffman in The Graduate. Is it true it's only six years? Exactly right. And also the woman that played Cary Grant's mother in North by Northwest, he was actually 10 months older than she was. So there's weird. I mean, you know, Harriet, Harriet summed this up so very, very well.

And she speaks from the experience. But I think what she said about the 360 degree character you know let's see what what you know women are people um yeah we do interesting things we're not just your mother or your daughter or your carer or you know somebody sexy you know we can do all sorts of things and I think that that's it sounds so simple, but it just hasn't happened. I wanted to ask you, while I had you, Harris, if I can, about the theatres and the pandemic. I mean, the Chancellor apparently is preparing to hand out £408 million to help museums, theatres and galleries in England to reopen once the coronavirus restrictions start to ease in the coming months.

How are you finding life, not actually as someone who works in this field, but just as a citizen, how are you finding life without theatre and those sorts of things at the moment, Harriet? I miss it dreadfully. I mean, I've been in my village, if you like. I live in a part of London which is self-sufficient and villagey. And for most of the pandemic, I haven't been to the centre of London. But on three occasions in the last six months, I've had to go in to do a recording or something or come into the BBC building. And being driven through those empty Shaftesbury avenues and, you know, it's deeply sad. It's made me very sad and made me realise how much I miss crowds, crowded tubes and cafes and restaurants and theatres. And I think people, I mean, the good side is that people are realising what they're missing without the theatre,

which I hope will make them come back in a flurry when we do get going. And I hope some of the Chancellor's budget will go to help the actual people who work in these buildings and not just into the infrastructure of the buildings themselves. Well, we will see. It'll be announced tomorrow and we'll be looking at that. We'll do a bit of a preview, I'm sure, here on Women's Hour and looking at it specifically through a women's lens on Thursday when we know the details. Just to bring you into our wider discussion today, Harriet, are you missing hugs? We're talking about hugs starting to come back. I am so lucky that I've got my husband with me

and we have, you know, multiple hugs per day. But just listening to your programme and really realised, I just had to imagine what it was like to have not had one all this time and it was a terrible terrible thought my first hug would be to someone I know in a care home who's just not quite understanding why she's not getting she's got dementia and why she's not having the usual life that you know and that it's very hard to explain to someone in that position why it's happening so that would be my first hug dame harriet walter thank you karen very briefly who would your first hug be well i'm liking yourself hugging so i might try that later okay try it

there you go i've got a message here which just speaks to what harriet was saying is from maddie and no one has touched me since my father's funeral in june i would be happy to hug anyone exclamation point well we would be happy to hug anyone! Well, we would be happy to do that too for you, Maddy. Thank you so much. And a nice counterintuitive one saying, am I the only one who doesn't miss hugging? I've been thinking a bit about this. Before COVID, I was hugging loads of people at social gatherings,

but I've reviewed my policy and I've decided to restrict it to my closest friends in future. So a variety of views on hugging coming in. Keep them coming. Keep those messages on 84844 or on social media or at BBC Women's Hour. Now to talk about a campaign which is gathering steam, pregnant women who lose their babies

should be given two weeks paid bereavement leave according to a new campaign. At the moment, only women who lose their baby after 24 weeks are entitled to statutory leave. Taylor Moss, who had a stillbirth at 23 weeks, has started a petition to try and help others and change the law after she was entitled to nothing. Her campaign is being backed by Sherilyn Macquarie, the Conservative MP who co-chairs the Baby Loss All-Party Parliamentary Group. Taylor's on the line now. Good morning. Morning.

Tell us about your campaign. So I'm looking to have some sort of paid leave for women that lose a baby prior to 24 weeks gestation. There's things in place currently for people that have a baby or lose a baby past 24 weeks. And there's nothing, there's no pay, there's no protection for women that do lose a baby under 24 weeks. And as we know, it's wide out there in the media, one in four women do lose a baby in pregnancy.

So it is something I feel needs to change. What is your own connection to this? I mentioned a little there about what has driven you to campaign. So I've lost three babies prior to 24 weeks. We lost my daughter at 23 weeks and I've had another two losses one at 12 weeks and one at eight weeks um you know quite a different variant of gestations there um so it's it is something I'm really very passionate about I'm very sorry to hear that and then I know that this is something that you want to help others from your experience. You know, a lot of people would would find out that they weren't entitled to anything and then think, well, that's that. But was it was there something specific that kind of drove you to campaign?

So I have an Instagram, which I started up to gain support for myself through infertility and baby loss and find like minded women. And that's grown quite a bit. And I've come to speak to multiple women across the country who have lost babies and who have been in this position. It's not just not getting paid. They're being disciplined because they are going through miscarriages and having to have time off work um women are going to work and they're miscarrying at work it's it's not good enough it just in 2021 it is not good enough um so yeah it's just from speaking to so many women that have been through the same thing I I'm not going to have any more children I can't have any more children but I cannot bear that this could happen to my sister or my daughters or somebody that I care about it just it needs to change you are as you say trying to voice what you're hearing from a lot of other people how was it for you when when as you say

your daughter was still born at 23 weeks and you were in a situation where did you have to go back to work or how was it in your life um I was very very fortunate that my employer was amazing um he was he was brilliant um I still went back to work two weeks later and I think a lot gets lost with the whole 24-week viability thing I still had a baby who I gave birth to on the delivery suite and she had 10 fingers and 10 toes and she was the most beautiful little thing but to be expected by law to go back to work the very next day is just beyond comprehension um so I was lucky but I still felt that pressure that legally I wasn't entitled to take any time off um so I went her funeral was on the friday and i went back to work the monday um and it's

not something that women should continue to have to go through because of course there's the other side of this which is that people don't talk often about being pregnant until a certain stage usually 12 weeks so you can also go through all of this. I'm not comparing your specific experience there with others, but you've actually experienced three occasions of this, if I can put it like that, where you may not have even told anybody that you're pregnant. No, exactly. Do you have... Sorry, go on.

No, sorry, go on. I was going to say, do you have a view, and with the conversations you've been having, and it's not for you to draft law, I accept that, but do you have a view as to how this could be better in law? There needs to be better protection for women in the workplace in that you shouldn't have to be signed off sick and it shouldn't have to be signed off sick.

And it shouldn't be treated as sickness. Pregnancy and sickness are two totally, totally different things. And it needs to be treated in a way in which women aren't going to get disciplined or sacked or made redundant because they've had time off work for the for losses and I think that over being paid is the most important thing that they have their job and they are protected within their job yes we should say you do have you do have children of a variety of ages you're pretty busy at the moment I imagine like like many parents yeah how many you've got? How many children? I've got four children. Four children keeping you busy whilst doing this campaign. I wanted to bring that up because I think the other side of this is that the women go through the roller coaster, don't they?

Of of trying to have the children whilst also working. Exactly. We after we lost my daughter, we were diagnosed with secondary infertility. So we had a long battle there. And then I had to take time off work to have IVF. We weren't entitled to IVF under NHS, so we went abroad. So I needed two weeks off work. And then I had various problems in my pregnancy so I then needed more time off work and again all of this is falling under statutory sick pay and women not having you know pay and they're losing out. Anyone who's listening to this who perhaps is a boss what would you say to them and say it's really hard especially in the pandemic at the moment to try and accommodate all sorts of things like this as a boss

um i don't know i i hope that this campaign even if it doesn't achieve what i want it to achieve that there are employers sitting listening to this now that think okay this isn't right and for even just if you're looking at employee retention you are going to retain that member of staff just by giving them that pay or that leap that unpressured leave you are going to retain your female workforce they are going to want to work for you and you don't want a woman at work when they're going through this it's not productive to anyone you don't these women shouldn't be at work and you shouldn't want them at work they're not at their best but your point is if you do as your boss did the right thing in inverted commas or whatever you can towards that really alleviating

the pressure that seems to be a very key point here, you will retain a good relationship, loyalty, and in the end, good for business perhaps as well. But Taylor Moss, thank you very much for coming to talk to us. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Matthew Side,

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