Woman's Hour - Afghanistan, Adoption, Lesley Manville

Episode Date: August 19, 2021

We continue reporting on what's happening to women and children in Afghanistan. We hear from our BBC corespondent in Kabul, Secunder Kermani. Also Larissa Brown who's Defence Editor at The Times tells us about women soldiers in Afghanistan, and we speak to Zarghuna Kargar who used to present Afghan Woman's Hour and this week found herself translating a Taliban press conference. It was her voice telling us what a Taliban spokesman said.We hear from Andrea Leadsom, MP who's the government's Early Years Adviser.Two women who've adopted talk to us about the ups and downs. And we've also got Lesley Manville on talking about her new TV drama called I Am, which is about a woman called Maria who's 60 and bored.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. With every day that passes, the relief operation on the ground in Afghanistan becomes more urgent and now there are reports of desperate women throwing babies over razor wire to British soldiers into their compound at Kabul airport in the hope that their children can escape the Taliban. The attention has turned to efforts to avoid a humanitarian crisis. But also, who is to blame and how have the Afghanistan people found themselves in this position. The Prime Minister recalled Parliament yesterday and faced criticism from all sides to the government's response,

including this blistering speech from the former Prime Minister, Theresa May. Was our intelligence really so poor? Was our understanding of the Afghan government so weak? Was our knowledge of the position on the ground so inadequate? Or did we really believe this? oedd ein gwybodaeth o'r sefyllfa ar y graen yn mor anodd? A oeddwn ni wir yn credu hynny? Oeddwn ni'n teimlo bod rhaid i ni ddilyn y DU a gobeithio bod ar y cyfnod o ddynion a'r gofnod, byddai'n iawn ar y nos? Oherwydd mae'r realiti, os ydw i'n gwneud y pwynt hwn,

mae'r realiti yn bod, wrth i'r amser a gafodd ei ddod o hyd i'r cyfnod, a'r cyfnodau a gafodd eu gadael i'w gynhyrchu, is that as long as this time limit was given and dates were given for withdrawal, all the Taliban had to do was to ensure there were sufficient problems for the Afghan government not to be able to have full control of the country and then just sit and wait. The former Prime Minister Theresa May talking in the Commons yesterday. Today we're going to hear from someone in touch with Afghan female fighters, the so-called Sandhurst and the Sand Troops, and the female journalist who's gone viral for translating the words of the Taliban. As always, please do get in touch about anything you hear and want to say.

84844 is the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. You can get in touch with me over on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through our website. I should also say also on today's programme, the drive to boost adoption in this country and what needs to change. We'll be hearing from two women who have adopted and I'll be joined by the actor, Leslie Manville, who'll be talking about her latest work and mission to show older women as they actually are. But first, to get the latest about what's happening in Afghanistan

with, of course, specific focus on women that we were hearing yesterday will form the bulk of those who are able to come to this country as refugees from Afghanistan. Let's go to my BBC colleague, Sukunda Kumani. Sukunda, I believe you're in Kabul. Yes, that's right. I've been in Kabul. I arrived here yesterday and, you know, I've been to the airport where there's still continuing chaotic scenes,

just getting reports actually at the moment of heavy gunfire in the area. When I was there yesterday, the Taliban were firing into the air to try and control the crowd, also beating people with sticks and whips at times. And there's a very, very distressing situation there. A couple of thousand people perhaps camped outside the main entrance. Many women and young children there. I mean, I spoke to one woman with, I think, three young children. She said they'd been there for the last five days. That family, like many of the ones who were outside the civilian part of the airport, don't actually have any documentation or

any visa that's been granted to them. They've just kind of turned up really in the desperate hope of being able to get out of the country. Unfortunately for them, it seems very unlikely that that will be possible. There are others, of course, who have been granted permission by Western or other international embassies and are being evacuated. Now, it's not always easy for them, though, partly because of the chaotic situation, partly because of the attitude of the Taliban for some of those Afghans to get out. And so we've had reports, for example, of a baby being passed over a barbed wire to American soldiers by one desperate family. According to one witness who was there, the baby was an American passport holder. It's a very, very distressing scene, of course,

still yet to fully understand the circumstances around it. But many people, many families trapped in very dire conditions there. I should say as well, though, that that's kind of a big pocket of chaos. There's another pocket of chaos outside uh the canadian or the former canadian embassy in the heavily fortified green zone in the center of carbel used to be protected by afghan security forces now is under the complete control of the taliban and there's hundreds of people there including again many families who have pitched up on the basis really of kind of what seem to be false rumors that you can just turn up, write your name on a blank piece of paper and your ID card details

and submit that to the Taliban. They will then pass that on to the Canadians and you'll be in with a chance of getting a visa. And it just seems, you know, incredibly unlikely that that's going to work for the vast majority of these people and but they're in such a state of confusion and panic that they're trying to take any opportunity they can other parts of the city though you know life is getting back to normal i mean i was in the shara now it's the main kind of street central street in kabul yesterday there were people going out for ice cream people with their families know, restaurants and shops were opening up. There was more traffic than there had been in the past few days. It's kind of a city of real contrast at the moment.

Well, I was going to say that was what I was coming on to in the sense of we'd also heard some reports. Yes, female reporters or presenters back on TV screens on certain news channels, but also reports from our BBC colleagues around the fact that women hadn't gone back to work in certain hotels and that women, even if they hadn't been banned from doing certain things yet, had started to take themselves out of the situation. What can you say about that? Absolutely. I mean, in the hotel that I'm at, for example, there are currently no female staff anymore at the moment. They've all been told temporarily to stay at home. I was speaking to someone from a large telecoms company yesterday that they normally have large numbers of women working at call centres and in their shops. All they're told at the moment, all their female staff temporarily to go home. No one's quite sure what kind of new restrictions the Taliban will impose.

At the moment, the Taliban keep saying we will grant women all the rights that they are afforded within the framework of Sharia and Islam. Now, that problem is they haven't defined what their interpretation of the framework of Sharia and Islam is. And many people have very different interpretations of that around the world. We just had a note come through from one Taliban spokesman saying that at the moment they are saying that women should, because of the kind of unfolding and developing situation in Afghanistan, should not be working at the moment. But they are saying that they do intend to allow them to work in the future, but because of security concerns right now, they're not allowing them to do that. I was just going to say, that's incredibly dark to hear, because both the employer is saying in certain circumstances,

don't come in just in case we don't know the rules, and the Taliban saying, don't go in because it's it's not secure at the moment either way you end up with women not in normal positions in life absolutely certainly for the moment I mean we'll have to wait and see you know how things how things develop and of course the concern will be that that these restrictions end up going on for for longer and are not reversed despite what the Taliban say. But I mean, what you know, yesterday, when I was out in the center of Kabul, you do see women around, I mean, not as many as previously. And certainly, I saw far fewer younger women,

that's something that I noticed in particular. And the women that you do see, they are, I would say they're dressed a little more conservatively than they would have perhaps been dressed before. I mean, of course, Afghanistan's always been, on the whole, a deeply socially conservative country anyway. But they're still, you know, the women that you see in Kabul, they're wearing the headscarf. They're not wearing the full burqa. Even at the Canadian embassy or outside the Canadian embassy or the the airport there are families there there are women there's the taliban are not telling these women what they should and should not wear at the moment but of course there are concerns that you know that that will be what what will happen in the future i mean i've spent time

in taliban controlled areas as well it becomes very difficult to really build up a picture of what the group really believe the role of women should be. I mean, when I was in the north of Afghanistan with them, there were schools for girls that were open up until the age of 18. I understand that in other large other parts of the country, girls are stopped from going to school beyond the age of well around the age of puberty, effectively. I've questioned you know taliban leaders that i've been with about this and it said you know do you not have a central policy how can you explain these huge differences on such a core issue um i never really got a

satisfactory answer i mean the last time i spoke to to one senior taliban figure he said well you know we have a central policy that is to allow female education completely for university, for school, for high school. But some areas, he said, they're more traditional. And in those areas, the kind of local people don't want the women or the girls to go to school. And there's perhaps a degree of truth in that, that some areas are more conservative. And there is opposition in those areas that kind of exist outside of the framework of the Taliban to female education. But of course, you know, the Taliban in those areas would be empowering those narratives

rather than challenging them. Well, William, thank you for painting such a rich picture of how things are at the moment and how things may or may not develop and in fact the uncertainty around that. I hope that you can stay safe, you and your colleagues, in this changing circumstances. Sekunda Kamani there in Kabul, our colleague here at the BBC reporting. Let's talk now to Larissa Brown, who's the defence editor at The Times. She has good bonds with some of the Afghan women, I believe, who were trained by the British troops at the Afghan National Army Officer Academy, also known as Sandhurst in the Sand Military Academy.

Larissa, good morning. Good morning. One of the first messages, interestingly, we received when we started covering this story here on Woman's Hour on Monday was about what about the women that have been trained by our troops? What are they doing now? Do you know? Yes, so I met a few of these women back in 2017 when I went to the military academy. And in the last few days, I've been in contact with some of them. So one of them, she's called Arefa, she's 26, I met in 2017. And she then ended up in the Afghan Special Forces with a group of other women that she was with at the time.

And she's been telling us that she's been trying to get on a flight out of the country along with her friends. And she's been stuck at Kabul airport. She's one of the lucky ones that's managed to get in, but she's been waiting for a American flight for the last couple of days. She's still not on that flight. And a couple of the others are waiting outside the airport, unable to get through the perimeter. And just to be clear, are there several women in this circumstance? How many women were trained? Can you give us a picture of these women? So hundreds of women were trained at the academy over the years. In terms of the special forces, I'm not clear exactly how many are still in the country waiting to get out,

but we've spoken to two of them and they're with another two of those women. So there's a group of four of them at the moment. And what's their state like at the moment? So the women that are trying to get into the airport are extremely panicked. They're really quite upset because they've applied to get on an RAF flight, but they've not heard back yet. And they've said this morning that they've been forced to leave their house because they've been told by other people

serving in the special forces that the Taliban have now got a list of people that were in the military. So they're feeling extremely worried and they're moving from house to house. Yesterday, they stood outside the airport for several hours trying to get through, but they weren't able to because it said the Taliban were at the checkpoints. So they really are extremely worried on the ground. It may be completely the wrong question to ask at this point, but the idea of any form of resistance,

is there any talk of that with the women that you're talking to? Because we did see, and I'm not sure if they ended up being verified at the time, but there was a image you may have seen as well of some women holding up posters, some form of protest. It was three or four women in a row and a Taliban fighter looking very awkward, sort of standing next with heavily armed. But these women have been trained by our forces. Well, a reefer that we spoke to said that on Saturday she was at a military camp, obviously with weapons, and they were told to lay down the weapons and retreat. So, no, the women that I've spoken to are feeling quite frightened at the moment. They are under orders not to obviously try and fight back in any way.

So, no, those women that I've spoken to are just attempting to get out of the country at this moment but they're also feeling very sad because these women have obviously spent years serving and they were desperate to build a better life for themselves and for their families and now they're having to get on these planes if they can get on the plane but abandoning their family family members that are obviously dotted around the country and aren't all in Kabul with them. And the other thing, just to say, which was striking from Boris Johnson's remarks in the Commons yesterday, is one of the badges, if you like, of success that the prime minister used was advancement of female rights.

But the picture you're painting, the picture we're just hearing from Secunda, does not sound like that that is a lasting legacy at the moment. No, not at all. And even actually interpreters that we were speaking to a couple of weeks ago were telling us that they were pulling their children, including girls, out of school because the situation was so bad. So, I mean, you can just imagine what it's like now. These people are extremely worried for their families. And of course, that's why a lot of these people want to get out, because they've got young girls in the family and they know that their future is very bleak for them. Larissa Brown, thank you very much for talking to us

about what you've been hearing. Well, if you were listening to the programme yesterday or in fact watched the Taliban's global press conference live on Tuesday, you will have heard this, what one of the Taliban's spokesmen had to say about Afghan women. There will be nothing against women in our ruling. Our people accept, our women are Muslims, they accept Islamic rules. If they continue to live according to Sharia, we will be happy, they will be happy.

Well, the woman's voice, you can hear that translating the Taliban spokesman, is the BBC's Zarghuna Kargar. She's a journalist for BBC World News TV. She used to present, I'm told, Afghan Woman's Hour. And her translation and voice went right around the world on the BBC and was picked up by other networks too. Good morning. Morning. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you for having me. That experience must have been surreal, to say the least, because there you were being the woman's voice, if you like,

over the Taliban man, talking about whether women are going to have rights or not. Definitely. It was a surreal experience to see Zabihullah Mujahid for the first time on TV screen because in my experience of working for BBC Afghan Service, I used to interview him numerous times when there were attacks happening on the streets of Kabul in other provinces, and we would just call him and he would pick up and say, Mr. Zabihullah Mujahid, we want to know

if that attack was done by the Taliban. He would claim responsibility for most of them. So for me, that was the image of this man I had. And there I was like translating him talking about women's rights and being ruling the country. And it's quite scary at the same time. And it's hard to take in all what he said about women, about girls the vagueness in his message Huge vagueness, we were just hearing from our correspondent

about that and the uncertainty and you tweeted afterwards saying I totally agree with you regards to the Taliban message that women are a very important part of our society like today I was translating your message from Pashto because of my education. Yes, because I wanted him to see that an educated woman is able to convey your message. Otherwise, at that time, because the press conference happened suddenly,

no one knew about it before and he appeared late so i'm waiting to hear him what he was saying and i was the educated afghan woman who could convey his message so i wanted i want him i want the other taliban leaders to hear afghan men to hear us that this is the importance that we play in life in daily daily life, in media. And if you give us a chance and if you give the women of Afghanistan a chance, it's going to be a prosperous society. Without women, how can you have a prosperous society? And they have experienced that kind of community or society

and the women have experienced it. And that's why there's so much fear at the moment among women, among girls. Just even hearing you say that, if you give us a chance, if you give women a chance, you know, there's an appeal from you there to try and get that across.

I feel so emotional because the women I know, they have worked so, so hard. I have worked so hard. I've dedicated my life to the betterment of girls' education, girls' rights, women's rights. And I feel so strongly about this.

I know I'm a BBC journalist, but I'm an Afghan woman as well. And I have feelings. And at the moment, I see them ruling. And if it can work with peace and with appeal, why not? I want them to work together. And if it can work with peace and with appeal, why not? I want them to work together. I can't imagine the emotion that you feel just as yourself with your family, but also with the people that you're talking to,

the fear that 20 years of progress could be rolled back. Yes, I want them to understand that there's fear among women, among girls. You showed them a very dark age. They went through illiteracy. They went through being behind, comparing to their brothers in the same family. Their brothers were allowed to go to school, and they were not. So I want them to understand this, that we feel it. The Afghan women feel it. And that's why we are so fearful. Just come to talk and be very clear about your message, about women's rights, about women's freedom, about women's education. Just be clear. All we want is clarity.

It's clear that a lot of the women that we're seeing with their families all alone are not feeling they can trust that message. They are trying to leave. They're trying to get out. Because actions and words are different at the moment. Just yesterday, we saw the national TV presenter, who is like main TV channel in Afghanistan, watched in provinces. She went to do her job and she was not allowed to go in. Her male colleagues were allowed, but she was stopped. So this is the action we see on ground. And then when you speak, the leaders speak and speak to the world,

speak to the international media, they give a message that we are going to work on it and we are going to do everything according to Sharia law. What does that mean? Which interpretation you are bringing to us? So we want to know and this is just the trust is very, very hard to trust very hard to believe with this vagueness. I hope we can talk again, Sarguna. Thank you very much

for coming on today and not only bringing your own experiences to bear but the feelings of others that you're hearing the BBC's Sarguna Kargah there whose voice you heard translating that Taliban message. Well my next guest is the Conservative MP and former Cabinet Minister Dame Andrea Leadsom and in a moment we're going to discuss the early years review she's completed this year for the government about the start we give children in this country in life which is of course apt in light of the impact the pandemic has had on young people but

first Andrea Leadsom I have to start with what's going on in Afghanistan and that report of women, you know, placing their babies, trying to get their babies over barbed fencing to British soldiers. And we've heard just one from our correspondent there to an American soldier as well. Andrea Ledson, your response, I suppose, about what you're seeing? I mean, it is absolutely harrowing. It's unthinkable that mothers are resorting to that. But I think that just illustrates how very much parents will sacrifice everything for the sake of their infants. And my heart goes out to all of those women who are having to make such incredibly difficult decisions.

Did you speak in the House of Commons yesterday? No, actually, I had a huge number of constituents contacting me with different questions and also some people who have particular issues with people that they're trying to help to get out of Afghanistan. And I spent my time with my team focusing on that. OK, because, I mean, the criticism of the government, of your government's response, has come from all sides, including the Conservative side.

For instance, the Tory MP and Chair of Defence Select Committee, Tobias Elwood, has dismissed Boris Johnson's refugee offer as a totally inadequate response. Is it enough? I think it is always a balance. I mean, obviously, at the moment, looking at what's going on in Afghanistan, actually trying to get people out, trying to process their paperwork to get them out of the country at a time where we're all incredibly nervous about how long the Taliban will continue to allow people to leave. So, I mean, I think that there's no doubt

this will be kept under review, but the priority has to be British citizens, those who've helped and worked for us, and the vulnerable, which includes women and their babies. Just a final question before we get to the babies in our country and what you've been looking at, if I may. Boris Johnson yesterday said the NATO mission had been a success. And one of the key ways he substantiated that was women having rights. I don't know if you were able to hear our first few conversations on the programme this morning. Those rights appear to be draining away. I mean, as you say, you don't throw or pass your child over barbed wire if you think it's going to be a good life for yourself or for them.

I completely agree. I mean, I'm absolutely horrified at what we're hearing. And I did hear your earlier speakers, and I totally agree with them. What can Afghan women do other than panic? You know, it's only 20 years ago, it's in their lifetime, certainly in their mother's and grandmother's lifetime, that they were not even second class citizens. They were trapped inside their homes, inside. But why is the Prime Minister badging women's rights as a success story if they're not sustainable? Well, I think that therein lies the issue, doesn't it? I mean, we've had 20 years of an extraordinary improvement in the possibilities and the rights of women. And it is devastating to see that their fears,

that that's all now going to go away. And I have to say, I do not feel confident that the Taliban are going to suddenly demonstrate that they're completely changed and now things are going to be better for women. I'm very, very concerned about it. To bring your attention and our attention to what you've been working on in this country, you've been focusing on very young children and babies and concern about delayed development. And I know in particular, we're caused by isolation. What are your findings that needs to change? What do we need to do differently for very young children here in the UK? Well, ultimately, it's about putting the baby at the

centre of everything we do. So for some families, it's absolute doddle to have a baby. They love it, they take to it like a duck to water, and it's all easy. But for so many families, it's absolute doddle to have a baby. They love it. They take to it like a duck to water and it's all easy. But for so many families, we know one in five mums, one in 10 dads suffer from postnatal depression, families who are desperately trying to get help just with questions about crying, sleeping, feeding, etc., who really struggle with that. So actually, what my review is doing is putting the baby at the centre of it and looking at six key action areas, the first three really transformational for babies and their carers, which are ensuring every family gets a joined up set of start for life services in their local area, that every family is welcomed to a family hub where they can get

face-to-face services and indeed virtual support, which I think is a silver lining if there is such a thing of the pandemic, is the way in which people have valued virtual support. And then the third one, transformational, is a digital version of the Red Book, which will enable the early years workforce to support and focus help for families in a much, much better way. Just in terms of what you have recommended, you've outlined very briefly there, some of them, you are talking about family hubs. And some people are not understanding how they will differ to Sure Start centres, which of course, we have seen cut the funding, the government spending on Sure Start has been cut by two thirds since 2010.

And it's estimated that at least 500 Sure Start centres have been shut in the last decade. So there are 3,000 Sure Starts in England, and I'm a big fan of them. I think some of them have done a fantastic job. But if there's a weakness of them, which I fear there is, it's that the focus, and I was involved in Sure Starts right from the very beginning. I've had lots of conversations with Dame Tessa Jowell when she was still with us about this subject. And the problem with Sure Starts is that they were very much focused on the number of buildings, how family hubs will differ. They will build on the excellent work of some sure starts in making sure that you have multidisciplinary services available in that

family hub. So you could go there for your antenatal clinic, to meet your health visitor, perhaps to have mental health support or couple counselling, that it will be a welcoming place that has very, very practical support and advice, as well as companionship. But also family hubs are from conception all the way up to 19. So providing real support for the family right through their journey. And so I feel that that focus on the needs of the infant right the way through to adulthood is going to be a real game changer. And what I hope is that local authorities will merge their sure starts into the sort of the family hub model, not about processes,

but just about thinking of the family as a whole, putting that very early phase at the beginning of it all, because families who are securely bonded with their babies, who are coping in those very early years, will go on to be much, much more capable parents. And if I may, just one last thing, the London School of Economics, actually Institute for

Fiscal Studies recently published a report that demonstrated that actually the existence of Sure Starts has reduced hospitalisations in older children quite significantly because it builds the capabilities of parents. So we can already see cost saving later on by investing more in support in the early years. Some people that'll stick in their throat, you're talking about investing more in the early years, when there has been these cuts. And even if you don't agree with the effectiveness of Sure Starts, and you think these family hubs could do a better job, it's a bit rich coming from the government that's cut, or at least you can even go as far just to say,

if you don't even agree with Shawstarts or think they're as good as you're saying, or others aren't saying, that there was a failure to ring fence money in that direction. Have you convinced Rishi Sunak to ring fence this money for local councils for what you're saying needs to be done? So a big part of the implementation phase of the work that I've done, which is now government policy, we launched our vision for the 1001 Critical Days in March. It is government policy. And a big part of the work of the Start for Life unit that sits within the health department right now is building our spending review submission so we're working on

implementing all of the action areas and in parallel doing a spending review submission to get the financial backing to make this really work for families so is that a no i think we're returning is that is that a no no that's a yes well no it's a sorry you've not written our spending submission well no there's a spent I asked if you'd convinced the Chancellor to ring fence the money. Your response was there's a review. Okay, well, in terms of ring fencing of the money, in talking to local authority areas, and some with really best practice,

you know, some local authority areas have really kept prioritising the early years in a big way. And most local authorities have said that ring fencing isn't what they want. What they actually want is those services to be prioritised and for them to then be able to roll out what is the priority in their area. And that's what we focused on in this review is putting the baby at the centre rather than a sort of top-down decision. So it's not really about ring fencing, it's about putting proper investment. That's what you always say. These sorts of conversations have gone round and round and round for the last decade, with Conservatives saying that local

authorities want it to be prioritised. But prioritising is just words on a piece of paper. Money is what makes it happen. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm explaining that with this Early Years Healthy Development Review, setting out the vision for the 1001 critical days, which is now government policy, what we're focusing on is the actions. And as I've explained, that's a seamless set of joined up services for families. So the alternative to that is that you ring fence something and then it becomes problematic because you don't then have the ability as a local authority area to say well we're in rural devon for example we need to prioritize transport for people so that they

can get to a family hub for example or in an urban area we might need to provide no i'm speaking english as a second language. I understand the freedom for local council. They've got to have the money. You've got to have the money. We're hearing that councils can't afford to do what they're already doing, for instance, with social care. And even your point, we just had some messages about this, but even your point about thousands of Sure Starts still being open. If you just look at the former director of the Sure Start unit, what she had to say in light of your review, Naomi Eisenstadt,

who supports much of what you're saying, I should say as well, Andrea Ledson, but she did say that many that remain open are a shadow of their former selves, open only a few days a week with some only offering services to targeted families judged to be in need of specialist support. The money hasn't been there. This is the same Conservative government that has cut that money. What I'm talking about is a real revolution in services for the early years. And I'm absolutely clear that building on the shore starts, which prioritise the buildings over the services within

them by introducing family hubs, which will be multidisciplinary centres for those early years workforce. So midwifery, health visiting, mental health support, breastfeeding support, our breastfeeding rates are so poor in this country. Also for things like couple counselling um smoking cessation all of the things the the extra services that families really do seek out and at the moment struggle to find what we're looking at in this review is a a transformation of the services for the early years are you sorry i know you've got the spending review please will we come back on Woman's Hour when that's been decided. Tell us about it. But are you sorry that so many of these things have been cut

under the Conservatives over the last 10 years? Because some of the things you've talked about will directly correlate. You can't deny it to cuts to funding to local councils. So actually, the Sure Start programme in some local authority areas has continued to be significantly prioritised and in other areas the funding that would have gone in the past to Sure Starts has been moved to other priorities. That is something that different local authorities have done differently. And so I say again, I'm a huge fan of Sure Starts. I think some of them do a fantastic job.

Others, frankly, don't. And what I'm really hopeful and optimistic about is that family hubs are going to build on the good work of Sure Starts. And we're really going to see families, babies put at the centre work of Sure Starts. And we're really going to see families, babies, put at the centre of policymaking going forward. OK, well, I will look forward to having you back to talk about

when more of this is implemented and we can see perhaps some of the results, but specifically about the spending. So we've had a lot of messages on that. Dame Andrea Leadsom, thank you for coming on. There we go. Next week is Listener listener week regular listeners to women's hour will know this is when you suggest the topics we discuss and we listen well i'm always listening i really am i have to say so many messages just about that last interview

for instance yes is this talk but is there action and more messages along those lines perhaps that will be a subject that's even suggested for next week but to our new listeners, Listener Week is the digital equivalent of me throwing you the keys to the car every day, many of you get in touch in response to what you're hearing but next week is about you driving what I talk about who I interview, what I ask

who you want to hear that you've perhaps never heard on the radio before, the questions that never get asked, you think why is she asking that, ask this, it's Listen never get asked. You think, why is she asking that? Ask this. It's Listener Week. It's your chance. Get in touch. I already had a very interesting message

from somebody yesterday, a nanny who's looked after children for years who doesn't know if she ever wants her own. I had another one about dating. I had another one about politics. Please get in touch. What it is for you that you want to hear on Women's Hour, on Listener Week next week.

And we will do, us and the team, all of us together, will do our best to deliver it. 84844 is the number to text. Social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or email at bbcwomenshour through our website. But keeping with the theme of children's wellbeing and children of all ages here, and what the government's doing to help,

last month it announced a new strategy to improve adoption services and help place more children in England. But what is the experience of adoption really like and what needs to change? Gina and her husband have two daughters who they adopted in 2004. Didi and her partner adopted in 2014 and they use Instagram to document their life as a family. A warm welcome to you both. Gina, if I come to you first, why did you decide to adopt? Well, it was something that I, in particular, was interested in doing before we

found out we couldn't have children. And as soon as we found out we couldn't, I, well, it was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. I rang straight away as As soon as we found out, we couldn't. But that was actually in 1999, which probably was a bit too soon after finding out the news. So it took a few years before we got to the point of adoption. And you adopted two children? Yes. Sisters? We did, yes. What was that process like? I imagine some of it's changed, but I'm sure you also have suggestions perhaps based on your own experience.

Yeah, I hope it's changed, I must admit. The process itself wasn't too difficult with the actual assessment. It was quite enjoyable, actually. But when the children were placed, that's when it got a bit harder um because you've got i had a you know four and a half year old and a five and a half year old with no experience of well we met them over eight days and then they moved in so it was a bit shocking um i think that's different now, isn't it? I hope so. Well, yeah, I did hear that because we, yeah, as I said,

we had eight meetings and then they moved in. And you don't know the children. They don't know you. So they're very shocked. They're in trauma. We're shocked. Yeah. I hope it's a little bit longer now. I hope they don't, you know, I hope they do take a longer time to actually move in. And you say also that it was very hard because I know everything looked fine and good almost from the outside and everyone giving you that encouragement. But you yourself, you were feeling quite distressed at times.

Well, I was very shocked to begin with because it's like an arranged marriage. You don't know the children. They're living in your house. You're trying to get used to them. They're trying to get used to you. You're doing all the uh of mothering that normal mothers do um you're trying to be good enough uh yeah so it it was the first few years you we were just a bit in shock but it calmed down and then it got sort of more difficult as the children reached teenage times well let's let's come back to that in just a moment. Didi, let me bring you in. How and why did you decide to adopt? I don't know.

It was a decision between myself and my partner. And we, my partner's female, so we had choices, so to speak. So we could have, you know, had our own child or looked at adoption. We both were quite interested in adoption adoption separately before we met so it was really a conversation between the two of us but I mean we went to I think it's called the modern family show now to kind of understand different ways to kind of have children and what was really the best route for us and we really chose adoption just based on an emotional connection we went to a seminar about insemination and went to a seminar about adoption and didn't feel connected to the process in terms of insemination and went to a seminar about adoption and didn't feel connected to the process in terms of insemination but when we had went to the seminar

about adoption we really disconnect emotionally with that and that's really why we chose to do it that way rather than we have our own and what was the process like for you um in some parts it was cathartic i'd say um in some parts it was cathartic, I'd say. In some parts it was quite difficult. But I think because in terms of having children, it's something we discussed for some time. We were very aware of what the process was going to entail. We'd done a lot of research. So we just allowed ourselves to be quite open.

It is a very intrusive process. I think a number of people would agree with that. But I think we just opened ourselves to be quite open. It is a very intrusive process. I think a number of people would agree with that. But I think we just opened ourselves up to it. I wouldn't say, I just think maybe it's probably based on how we approached the process. We found it a bit easier in terms of dealing with, we expect people to have very difficult conversations, you know, in terms of like going into like, you know,

childhood areas and how you were parented and those kinds of things. And it really does bring up a lot for you. So it is a very emotional rollercoaster in terms of up and down. I mean, there is a lot you do take on in terms of going through that process. It was difficult, but we... And wasn't it quite intense for you in terms of trying to... The advice you were given about bonding together and just being as one

and not necessarily seeing that many other people? Or tell us about those first few weeks. few yeah we did find that quite difficult because we are quite social as a couple so we do like to go and see friends and family I think when we had to kind of be I say you know if you want to call it locked down for at least a month in order to kind of allow that bonding to happen I probably would agree that um it does feel like an arranged marriage I've never heard it described that way but I'll definitely agree that um it does feel like an arranged marriage I've never heard it described that way but I'll definitely agree that you know you're two separate worlds coming together and it's almost like oh you've done your adoption now you know at that point you know my daughter being placed but it was it was also the thought that it should kind of just

start working now but that's not the case it takes time and support is needed and we did need support um so definitely I think that kind of bonding time, which I think something may feel like it should feel very kind of organic and very emotional. So it doesn't necessarily feel like that. And I think there is that misconception that it should feel like that. And you think you should feel like that. And perhaps for a lot of that kind of issue, that kind of feeling comes in where why does it feel right?

Or why doesn't it feel like it should feel better? But I also imagine it's been hugely rewarding and and i wondered what you would like to tell anyone who's listening who might be thinking about this but doesn't know very much dd yeah there is a lot of um misconceptions about what adoption is there is a lot of misconceptions about you know the children and how they come into adoption all sorts but i think the main thing is it has been very rewarding. I've learned a lot about myself. I think the more you kind of, my daughter was one when we adopted her.

She's now eight. So we're going through a different developmental milestones. But we've learned so much about ourselves as parents. I think, you know, even if you want to look at it altruistically, which was part of the process was wanting to give a child who doesn't go a home a home and give them love and that is really what you are doing you are changing a child's life

so I think people who may not necessarily see it as oh I'm not sure this child will feel like mine sometimes I forget that my daughter I didn't give birth to her I forget that because in terms of over the quarter of the years you do build this kind of emotional bond and it does feel like you did give birth to her she doesn't look like my natural child there isn't that kind of you know I didn't give birth to her

so maybe she's not quite mine but I'll definitely say in terms of like when you are going to do the adoption process don't just kind of fall at first hurdle you need to find the right social worker who works for you as a family or you as a couple you need to find the right kind of agency that works for you um in terms of who you are as a couple as well but some people think they hit the first hurdle it doesn't really work and they're like oh no i'm gonna back out but like anything else you kind of have to try before you buy so shop around different agencies find out what works and who works with you best in terms of personality maybe your background you know I mean we're a same-sex couple we're also kind of liberal Christian um so we had a lot of

intersectional layers so we had to find the right agency to work with us and we did have two well we had one our initial kind of like um our initial contact with another agency didn't work but we didn't stop we just can't find the right person so we have that persistence with yeah trying to find the right the right fit gina let me ask you the same question is there advice that you would give um i think well i totally agree with um yeah the caller um yeah i think that i i was very afraid at the beginning of, I just was sort of, didn't explore as much as I should. I was too afraid to say at points that, oh gosh, I'm finding it this difficult, because you want to show that you're good enough.

I heard people having their children taken away from them during the adoption process, after adoption. So I was very worried about being honest. But I think it's really, really important to be open and honest about what you can deal with and what help you need. And what would you, with this initiative from the government to improve adoption services, help place more children in England, is there anything you would hope to come from that? Well, I mean, I think it sounds excellent, very positive, but I just hope that they can do what they're planning to do

because I have found that every which way I've turned, it's been a struggle to get support and to get anybody to answer the phone or to respond to your phone calls and you know we're still waiting for assessments for our 23 year old um which she should have had at the beginning when she first arrived so and you mentioned things got harder as as they got a bit older is that in linking to that yes yeah because I think if they'd come with with support because they didn't um we didn't get any support at the beginning there was play therapy mentioned um but that disappeared and that was when they first arrived that didn't happen um they were they're very um

lovely girls they're very they're very good girls they're very compliant so things were overlooked so my um oldest daughter has only just been diagnosed with autism because she's spent her life mimicking and pretending to be somebody else basically so um well unconsciously pretending but you know what I mean how old was she when she was diagnosed uh 19 so it's pretty pretty late I mean we've we've covered of course how women can or girls can mimic and mask absolutely but in terms of what you're saying as well is just I suppose being further along uh than Didi in this is that the support needs to keep being there not just handover it does absolutely i mean um the the children's birth mother was alcohol dependent so was drinking um during

pregnancy so it was pretty obvious that we're going to be affected by the alcohol um one of them has been very badly affected by it um And so we've never had an assessment for foetal alcohol syndrome. Gina, thank you for talking so candidly to us this morning. Didi, thank you very much to you as well. And I should say that there are links to help and advice on the Woman's Hour website and anything else that you might need,

which can support you depending on where you are with all of this. I did promise you that you would be hearing from the actor Leslie Manville, who is my next guest. She seems to be on a mission at the moment to change the way the world sees older women, not least in her latest TV performance in Channel 4's I Am series.

Leslie plays Maria, who at 60 and after 30-odd years of marriage is finding it suffocating and decides she wants more from life. Here, her husband John wants to make a birthday cake for her and the children who are coming over to celebrate the day. They don't need cake. They're not six and eight. I'm just saying, we're going to have a late lunch, we're going to have nice wine, we're going to have the kids here, we're going to have nice wine, we're going to have the

kids here, we're going to celebrate the birthday, I'll open my presents. We don't need a cake. I'll just have candles on top that I've got to blow out and be embarrassed again, all over again after work. We don't need a cake. I'm just trying to celebrate you. You don't need to do anything to try and celebrate me. Whatever I do just turns to dust.

No, it doesn't. That isn't true. Just come and eat hummus with me and drink your wine. You don't have to do anything else to make me happy. I'm perfectly happy. Yeah, you sound it. As Michael called playing her husband, John. I Am Maria, I should say, is on Channel 4 this evening at nine, or you can only find it on demand at all four online. Let's talk now to Lesley Manville. Good morning. Good morning. She doesn't sound great, does she? No. No, she's not. I mean, there's definitely stuff brewing that's probably been brewing for years. And yeah, the programme tonight, you come in and you of the boil bursting, as it were.

And I know that you are keen to try and show how women, I know you're 65, I feeling if they're over 60, that there's some kind of winding down happening. And I personally don't feel that remotely. But the whole story of I Am Maria came about because I was collaborating with Dominic Savage, the director, and that's what he's done with all of the programs in the series um and I'd read a piece in the paper some years ago about the highest divorce rate in the UK being the over 55s and that mostly those divorces were instigated by the women and I thought that was a really interesting thing that you know the kids have left school and you're left you're left with this person that you've done it all with and um you hopefully are looking at another who knows um 20 30 years of life and you maybe don't want to live with the compromises you've been living with and you want to be free and have the freedom to live your life in the way that you

want to live it so that's how it sort of came about um and then we we thought it would be more interesting for the story that um you know the marriage is not a bad one you can't look at it and say well he's a horrible guy you know he's you can see why he'd want to she'd want to run away from him. But it's perfectly safe, secure marriage. But there's something about the fact that it is so hermetically sealed and safe that makes her want to escape it. I actually think it's a wonderful performance. I've seen it. So bravo on that. But I actually think the opening bit where she tries to initiate sex with him in the kitchen is really telling because she still wants him. You know, she still wants to try and do that. And he just not ruining anything here, but he just wants to make love with candles, not have sex with your character.

I mean, it's kind of it's perfect, as you say, that it's not a bad marriage to show off that issue. No. And it's kind of the sort of cliche is being reversed, isn't it? That she wants to have sex over the table and why not? You know, and he's saying, no, it's all got to be, you know, nice. And when the time's right and, you know, after I've wooed you or whatever, you know, it can't be the woman just going, come on, I want some hummus, but I wouldn't mind a bit of sex as well. I think that should be on a T-shirt that perhaps many people would buy. I did read a brilliant interview with you where you say you want to go out dancing, get sweaty, drink too much, go home at three in the morning, have sex and dress how you want. Maybe not all on the same day. I don't know. But, I mean, amen to that. Do you think we are finally starting to see women

over the age of 60 in a different way? I do. I think it's been such a slow burn, though. I mean, really, it's been the slowest burn in history, hasn't it? And we're not done with it yet. But I suppose, you know, it might I maybe some people will be tempted to say well you know it's because of the life I lead and the career that I have you know I spend listen I hasten to add I spend most of my evenings at home at the moment because you know

I'm working and because of the climate that we're living in at the moment. But I just don't, I'm not ready to, and I think loads of women are not ready to conform just because you've reached a certain milestone in your age. And I know it's got to do with, you know, your health and if you've got your health and you're in good shape, you know, I do feel as energetic and vital and fit as I was when I was, you know, 40 years younger. Well, I also think it's very interesting because of how we're seeing older women,

because you said in a recent article that plastic surgery feels like a betrayal of my sex. What did you mean by that? Because obviously the image of what you see of an older woman is for some women, certainly in the public eye seems to be about maintaining that you don't get old physically. Yes. Well, I can't get my head around that really. I mean, what do you do when you're 90? You're still trying to look 25 you know it it's gonna it's gonna happen and it's I don't know I it's it just feels like come on we all want to look as good as we can look um but I I I do think this whole thing which is mostly female the pressure is mostly on females that oh that you know so i

will have a knife put in my eyes and underneath my chin and it'll all sort it out it's it's not the answer it it feels um yeah i suppose it does feel like a betrayal of my sex but i it's quite i suppose it was a bit of a big statement to make, really. I mean, you must have been surrounded by a fair few women whose faces just aren't moving. And in your line of work, that's not great. Of course, of course I am. I mean, not so much here.

But, you know, when you go to the States, you witness it a lot more. And it's a personal thing, I suppose. I think I'd probably better stop banging on about it because it's, I've said it in quite a few interviews now, but it does put me off an actress when I look at her and you can just see that things aren't moving. And they're trying to portray, you know, so-called regular women, you know, women who wouldn't have access to that kind of treatment and wouldn't have the money to do that, those kind of procedures. Well, it's not banging on at all. If you can't do this on Women's Hour, where can you do it? I've got to ask. I've got to ask. How are you preparing for life as Margaret?

You're going into the Crown and we've had Vanessa Kirby on very recently. And I'm very intrigued. How does one prepare to be Princess Margaret? Well, I've known I was going to be playing the role for two years. So I've read all the books and that's kind of really all you can do. You watch any footage of her. Obviously, I went right back to the beginning of her life and looked at it all and then you start to listen to her

in the more recent history, which is when I'll be playing her and obviously watch Vanessa and Helena, who've done such brilliant interpretations of her because ultimately I'm taking over from them and so I was going to say when we had Imelda Staunton and she was talking about preparing for the Queen you know she talks about marching around her garden trying to get it right I mean have you I know we've been in lockdown but prior to that because you have known for a while did you insist you had to go to Mustique and have a cigarette holder and champagne on tap? I didn't, but I've actually been to Mustique a very long time ago.

And I missed meeting Princess Margaret by one night. I had to come home because, long story short, I had mastitis and I had to fly home. And I was invited, because it's where I was staying, to be a house guest of Princess Margaret's. And apparently that night she was playing the drums. Oh! I mean, really.

The status is a thief of a happy life anyway. I know I've suffered it myself. But to miss out on playing drums with Margaret. I know. That takes the biscuit. Lesley Manville, what a great story to end on. Thank you so much. That is on I Am Maria on Channel 4 this evening at 9 o'clock.

Lovely to talk to you. Thank you for your company today. We'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Pandora Sykes. And just before you go, I wanted to tell you about a new podcast,

Pieces of Britney. My attempt to piece together the life of Britney Spears and the forces that have forged it. A huge fan. Yeah, absolutely. A fan of not just the performer, but the person. I think that a lot of people were rooting for Britney to fail. And there's this sort of assumption of, you know, this is what you wanted. This is what you're going to get. In this eight part series for BBC Radio 4, I've spoken to cultural thinkers, lawyers, psychologists and key players in the entertainment industry to get their perspective on Britney's remarkable story and enduring legacy. I used her as an example of somebody who really got what was

required to do that kind of work. We're also using drama to help us look behind the headlines and the conflicting accounts to imagine the woman underneath. Join me for Pieces of Britney. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.