Woman's Hour - Afghanistan, Liane Moriarty, Parental leave, Jeans

Episode Date: September 29, 2024

The Taliban in Afghanistan are to be taken to the International Court of Justice for gender discrimination by Canada, Australia, Germany and the Netherlands. This is the first time that the ICJ has been used by one country to take another to court over women's rights. Krupa Padhy is joined by the BBC’s Chief International Correspondent, Lyse Doucet.Two weeks of paternity leave isn’t enough, according to the Dad Shift, a campaign group which is calling for more affordable paternity leave. Last week, they made headlines by attaching life-size model babies in slings to statues of men across London, in a bid to raise awareness of the issue. Research suggests that a third of eligible parents don’t take up the two weeks of statutory paid leave. George Gabriel from the Dad Shift; Scott Inglis, a parent and trade union rep for the University and College Union; and Dr Sarah Forbes, Director of the Equal Parenting Project at the University of York, join Krupa to discuss how current policies are working for parents. What would happen if a mysterious woman on a flight began predicting the deaths of her fellow passengers? This is the premise of Australian writer Liane Moriarty’s latest book, Here One Moment. Liane joins Krupa to discuss her novels, which include the Emmy and Golden Globe-winning Big Little Lies. The classic Levi's 501 jeans have been voted the nation's most iconic fashion piece of all time. Originally patented in 1873, the 501 recently celebrated its 150th year. Second to the jeans came the classic Ralph Lauren polo shirt, ahead of the timeless Chanel little black dress. Joining Krupa to discuss all things jeans is Lauren Cochrane, senior Guardian fashion writer and Hannah Rogers, Assistant Fashion Editor at the Times Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, thank you for being with us. Labour made many promises ahead of coming to power, including as part of what they call a new deal for working people, a review of parental leave within their first year in office. And close on their heels is the campaign group Dadshift, most recently responsible for attaching life-size model babies

in slings to bronze statues of men across central London. They say two weeks of paternity leave is just not enough and they're encouraging parents to sign an open letter calling on the Prime Minister to back a new paternity leave policy that's fit for the 21st century. A conversation about that coming up, but in the meantime, we do want to hear from you about your experiences. Did you or your partner take parental leave or paternity leave?

How did you make the most of those early days with a new baby and holding down a job? How did you make it work? And are you happy with the current policy? What changes would you like to see? You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Over on social media, we are on the handle at BBC Women's Hour. That's on X and Instagram.

You can email us through our website and of course you can send us a whatsapp message or audio note using the number 03700 100 444 all of our terms and conditions can be found on our website also coming up this morning leon moriarty the australian author of 10 novels perhaps best known for writing big little liesies, which was turned into the HBO TV series starring Nicole Kidman and Reese Witherspoon. She will be talking about her latest book, Here One Moment. It looks at the fallout of a flight where each passenger is told how and when they will die. And as Levi's 501s are voted the iconic jean style of all time in one new poll, and high-rise flare jeans are

predicted to have a major comeback according to this week's Paris Fashion Week. We want to talk about denim wars. Which is it? The skinny, the maternity, the mum jeans or how about the brand of leopard print jeans released this month with a 12,000 strong wait list. Maybe you're on that list waiting for your pair to get in touch. Which style makes the cut for you? But first, this week we learned that the Taliban are to be taken to the International Court of Justice, the ICJ, for gender discrimination by Canada, Australia, Germany and the Netherlands. This is the first time that the UN's court has been used by one country to take another to court over gender discrimination. Afghanistan was taken over by the Taliban three years ago in

August 2021. This was after the withdrawal of US troops from the country and the collapse of its government. And since then, the Taliban have curbed the rights of women and girls. Last month, a new set of morality laws were introduced banning women from even speaking outside the home. Here to talk about this with me is Lise Doucette, the BBC's chief international correspondent. Good morning, Lise. Good morning, Grupa.

How significant is this legal move to go to the ICJ? This is a landmark move in two respects. One, it's in legal history. It is the first time that the International Court of Justice, which is essentially the World Court of the United Nations based in The Hague. It's the first time it's been used by one country to take another to court over gender discrimination. In this case, as you mentioned, Canada, Australia, Germany, and the Netherlands against Afghanistan. Landmark because this represents yet another attempt, because all of the others are just not working, to try to push, persuade, because they have said they will also try to negotiate with the Taliban about this, to overturn a raft of restrictions which deepen and expand month after month in Afghanistan.

You mentioned what is only the latest morality code that was published by the Emir's spiritual leader, Haibatullah Akunzada, that is being described outside the country and by Afghan women, including Afghan women in Ziaspur, as gender apartheid, gender genocide even. And it's not the only legal move that the special rapporteur for Afghanistan has recently issued a report in which he says that gender apartheid in Afghanistan, which he described as a systematic oppression and domination by one gender group over another, amounts to a crime against humanity. So a second legal move, which is already underway, to say that this is so outrageous and against all legal

and moral norms that it should be classified as a crime against humanity. Lise, we know that this is not the first time that the Taliban have been extensively criticised by international players for their treatment of women. As you say, the ICJ is that permanent court of the UN, but just explain to us how binding their rulings are. Well, it certainly would send a very strong message. It would also give legal weight, legal pressure to any countries which could be considering a recognition of the Taliban. And now, a little bit more than three years after the Taliban swept into power on August the 15th, 2021, no single country has recognized them.

So it would add equal pressure. But what really matters, Krupa, is does it change the lives of Afghan women and girls? And judging by the record of Taliban leaders so far, and when I say the leaders, I mean a small group of ultra conservative clerics who are being criticized even by, I can safely say, because when I go to Afghanistan, I discuss this with even founders of the Taliban, who don't agree with these. They're conservative, but they understand that it is a different world now and that the Taliban have to be part of this world.

And they have the Taliban leadership at the very, very top, and it's a highly centralized organization. No one can challenge, at least they haven't done so far, and they say they cannot challenge, the edicts of the emir. So it doesn't seem likely that this one will have any more force than another, but it is chipping away at the Taliban's, they keep saying this week again, they said, why are we not at the United Nations General Assembly? Why are we not allowed to take up our seat? This is, you know, illegal that we're being banned. And the United Nations Secretary General Antonio Guterres, who attended some of these meetings with Afghan women, including the meeting with the foreign ministers who launched this new legal move, said you cannot take your seat at the world's table until you respect the norms of the international community, including, it must be said, the Muslim world. Afghanistan is the only country in the world

where girls are not allowed to go to school past primary school, past grade six, and where women are barred from higher education and a whole lot of other restrictions too. Considering all of what you've just said, this mission on the part of the Taliban to seek international legitimacy, they want to engage with states, with institutions, and we know just how much funding they've lost from key donors in recent years and how this has impacted women.

Do you think they might take heed of any ICJ ruling considering that legitimacy that it that it seeks? Some of them might you know and I so don't want to say Gruber that it's going to fail but they don't really they don't live by the rules of these courts. Take another example of pressure that's been put on them. In the early months, when it became clear that despite the promises of Taliban leaders who took part in negotiations in the Gulf state of Qatar, that they were a different kind of organization than the kind of medieval rule of the mid-1996 to 2001. But what is happening is that month after month, it's becoming clear that the only way they are different from the last time they ruled is that they actually are even worse, and they have more tools to implement their rules. So there has been a succession of

delegations from the world's international Islamic bodies, Islamic scholars and clerics from countries around the world, have spoken to Taliban leadership, have urged them, they've said to them that under the Islamic holy book, the Quran, women must be educated. And what the Taliban always say, they want to boast that their Islam is much better. And they fall back on a term in Pashto, which is called Urf, which means it's not just about Islam, it's about our customs and traditions. So even that, the appeals of their Islamic brothers, and sometimes sisters, have not been of to any avail. I traveled a year ago with the Aminah Mohammed,

who's the deputy secretary general, who is British Nigerian, who's a Muslim herself. And I watched as she went in and out of meetings with senior clerics, arguing with them point after point, the Islamic holy book, the Quran that she knew and in some ways knew better than they did, and they kept pushing back. So I think this newest move group comes out of a desperate question, desperate most of all, for the girls and women in a country where rates of suicide are rising.

I challenge any of our listeners right now, whatever the age you are, whatever your gender is, if you were want to do? What would you do? Which is why women in the diaspora, and bravely women in Afghanistan too, are raising their voices and saying, help, we need, literally it's an SOS for help. So this is what this new, they're trying politically, they're trying through negotiations, and now they're trying to use the world's legal tools, legal weapons, to try to get the Taliban to move. You mentioned the public parks there and someone else who mentioned those was the Hollywood actress Meryl Streep last week, who commented that a cat has more freedom than a woman in Afghanistan. She said a cat may go and sit on her front stoop and feel the sun on her face.

She may chase a squirrel in the park. A squirrel has more rights than a girl in Afghanistan because the public parks have been closed to women and girls by the Taliban. A bird may sing in Kabul, but a girl may not in public. And she's talking about this being a suppression of the natural law. But of course, we know, Lisa, that there are endless men and women around the world speaking out for Afghan women and girls. I wonder how useful you think it is when celebrities speak out like this, in your opinion. It was very interesting that when Meryl Streep spoke about cats and squirrels,

some Afghan women who held prominent positions in the last government ambassadors, they said, we're not cats and squirrels, we're lions, we're tigers. Because Afghan women are trying to raise their voices ever higher. After, it has to be said, a period where many were so traumatized, they were hardly able to speak. They're finding their voices now. What the Taliban always say is they say we are under Islam, we are protecting, we are protecting Afghan women.

They put out their new decrees. But the way they describe protection, it refers to marital consent, widows, remarriage, the dowry, inheritance, and those those kind of things. So they're pushing back by codifying it. Whether or not do celebrities outside the country, will they have? They certainly, people look up. I think at a time when this is not just an Afghanistan issue, how can any of us accept a world in which women and girls are not being educated? And again, I emphasize, this is not just Britain or Canada or the West. This is the broader international community. The more that voices like Meryl Streep, because

some people won't pay any attention. Who's this Afghan woman? I don't know this. Oh, Afghanistan again. My goodness. What a place. It never changes. They're always fighting. Then they say, oh, Meryl Streep is involved. I think sometimes, and it was not just that she was involved. She didn't just do a hashtag. She went to the meetings with Afghan women. She discussed with them. She spoke to at the United Nations. It was a very considered intervention. And it's not about an issue which is far away from any of us. It is all of our issue. So in some senses, she's intervening not just on behalf of Afghan women, but on the rights of women everywhere. Because Krupa, you know, from week in, week out on Women's Hour and many other programs on the BBC, this is not a perfect this new intervention by the foreign ministers, three of them happen to be women, but it's not just a gender issue. And now more and more celebrities are saying is that these are fundamental rights of our time. Afghanistan can be a conservative country. And I've spoken so many times to conservative members of the Taliban who say they do want a conservative country. And I've spoken so many times to conservative members of the Taliban who say, you know, they do want a conservative country. They want women to be dressed in ways

that perhaps you or I wouldn't want to dress. They want perhaps at schools for the girls and boys to be separated. But they still believe women should be educated. Women should work. One leading member of the Taliban, a founding member of the Taliban told me on my recently, he said, Lise, 95% of the Taliban don't agree with these edicts. And so I think in the end, unless the Taliban themselves, who are now fully in charge, unless they within themselves find a way to challenge, to go against their leader, and there's no sign of this, although we hear they do speak to, go down to Kandahar in the south of the country to speak to him in his little bubble, if you like, really a world of his own, then this is not going to change.

But all of the noise around it helps, even though lastly, and I'm sorry, I'm going on, but when it comes to the recognition of the Taliban, the Taliban feel they're making because they're inching in a way, which is recognition in all but name. The Chinese have accredited the new Taliban ambassador to Beijing. The United Arab Emirates has accredited a new Taliban ambassador in the United Arab Emirates. The Chinese and other countries, Pakistanis, the Russians, they're going and they're investing in Afghanistan. And the United Nations is having meetings with the Taliban,

and they've been much criticized. Although when it comes to the meetings with the Taliban, I say they do have human rights and women's issues on the agenda. And there are many who say don't cut them off completely. Keep talking. The only way is just to keep talking and to hope that Afghans themselves will be able, with the help of the international community, will be able to address and to ease the suffering, the unimaginable suffering of Afghan girls and women. Always so fascinating to get your insights on Afghanistan, a country that you know so well. Whilst we have you, Lise, I do want to take the opportunity to get your thoughts on what is happening in Lebanon at the moment

with the Israeli strikes against the militant group Hezbollah. Of course, there have been cross-border fire between the two since the 8th of October last year, and now this escalation. In recent days, more than 600 people across Lebanon and thousands more have been displaced, 90,000. And of course, we know women and children, again, caught up in these strikes, always the most vulnerable. I've been saying for many years that women and children

are not on the front line, they are the front line. And I'm sure many listeners have seen the images of the traffic gridlock coming from the south of Lebanon, people fleeing for their lives, packing everything into a car, going somewhere, nowhere, many not knowing where they can find shelter, some of them having received messages from the Israelis to leave their homes, to go somewhere safe, to get out of harm's way. Prime Minister Netanyahu of Israel said, you know, there's a rocket launcher in your yard, there's missiles under your house, get out of the way.

And it's a very, very complicated political picture. You know, international experts would say, yes, Israel has a right to defend itself. But there are also rules of war that you have to take precautions not to harm civilians, which is why there was so much concern and questions being asked when there was this so-called pager attack, when handheld pagers were exploding in the hands of Hezbollah members, but they were exploding in markets and close to children, and so children also died. So in that figure that you cited of people died, yes, Hezbollah members are being killed, but they're also including women and children.

Later today, we're going to hear from Prime Minister Netanyahu, who's now under pressure from the international community. He'll speak to the United Nations General Assembly, and he's expected to mention the pressure, the calls for his most important allies, including the United States, for a three-week ceasefire to allow some diplomacy to intervene, to try to resolve this issue through negotiations and not through military means. But Israel, in Israel, there's even the public are saying we want to stop the rocket fire from Hezbollah into Lebanon. We want the 60,000 people on the Israeli side of the border to return to their homes. And on the other side, there had been about 100,000 who had been also been forced to leave their homes. And now the figures are rising, are rising by the day. So yes, with every war, with every confrontation, military confrontation, it is at the same time, a humanitarian catastrophe. And so

it is unfolding now in Lebanon. Thank you so much, Lise Doucette, our Chief International Correspondent with her expertise there on what is happening in Afghanistan, and also in Lebanon. Thank you so much, Lise Doucette, our chief international correspondent with her expertise there on what is happening in Afghanistan and also in Lebanon. Two weeks is not enough. That is the view of the Dad Shift. That is a new campaign calling for longer and more affordable paternity leave.

Last week, they made headlines by attaching life-size model babies and slings to statues of men across London to raise awareness of the issue. Research has suggested that a third of dads took no paternity leave after the birth of their child and Labour in their manifesto said that they would review the parental leave system within their first year in government. Joining me to discuss how current parental leave policies are working or failing for parents particularly men are George Gabriel from the Dad Shift campaign,

Scott Ingalls, lecturer, parent and trade union representative for university and college union, and Dr Sarah Forbes, director of the Equal Parenting Project at the University of York. Welcome to you all. Thank you so much. Thank you. George, I'll start with you.

Why was it so important to set up this campaign? Well, I think as you've overviewed, I mean, the UK offers dads just two weeks of paternity leave at less than half the minimum wage. Self-employed fathers get absolutely nothing. We are bottom of the league table. We have the worst offer for new dads and co-parents in all of Europe. We're 40th out of 43 across the OECD. And this isn't good enough. There's a kind of growing mountain of evidence put together by amazing organisations like Pregnant Then Screwed, the Fawcett Society

and the Fatherhood Institute showing that paternity leave is good for dads, it's good for mums, it's good for babies. With Labour offering this review up, we think there's a kind of once in a decade opportunity to really level up the offer for new parents. And so we want to build as many kind of voices as possible calling for change. And when you say level up the offer for new parents. And so we want to build as many kind of voices as possible calling for change. And when you say level up the offer, what do you mean? Well, we think we should have a parental leave system that sets up new dads and co-parents take a decent chunk of time. We think it should be affordable for them to take. So two thirds of dads who do take paternity leave currently report financial distress as a result. So we think it should be substantial, affordable, and it should

give couples the opportunity to parent in an equal way if that's something they want to choose to do. If we look around Europe, there's plenty of examples of people doing it better because literally everyone is doing it better. One country that I find very impressive is in Sweden. When a new baby arrives, if it's a single parent household, 480 days are given. If it's a couple, both partners get 90 days, use it or lose it, and then 180 days that they can share between them on the basis of what makes sense for them and their family. So we think there's a real opportunity to level up the offer. And we also think at a time like this, when we're trying to return the country to growth through focus on productivity, helping families thrive, helping parents get in the game,

giving them the time they need to bond with their babies, get through those crazy early weeks and then show up to work as they would want to is the right thing to do. Yeah. Scott, let me bring you in here. You are dad to 17 month old Esme, no doubt keeping you very busy. You were offered two weeks of paternity leave. How easy was that to take? The parental leave, the mandatory parental leave, that was easy to take. Where we got into a little bit of, where it became more complex, was the decision that my wife and I took to share parental leave and that became more of an issue. So what I had to do was I took my two weeks parental leave

and then I took two weeks leave and then we split Claire's maternity leave, which gave us a total of around about 17 weeks before our baby was in nursery and we were back to work. A balancing act, which is what this message also supports. The father's role is to support the baby's mother in the early months. After nine months in the mother's body, the baby is primed to seek out her mum's milk, voice, smell and touch. And decent dads support these mother's infant days, knowing that it is the best start for their child decent dads don't try to usurp the relationship or push mum back to work with a tiny baby i was glad my husband had a two week paternity leave holiday when our children were born he didn't try to push me out of this

precious time he was a long supportive dad and husband. Thank you for your many messages that are coming in. George, what was your situation? You've got a 16 month old. Yeah, I had four months off and I'm incredibly grateful to my employer for giving me that. It was totally indispensable. You know, it meant I was there for the weeks after our baby was born. My wife had a C-section, couldn't go up and down the stairs. I was really practically needed around the house. Six weeks we had an accident and our baby cracked her head and um had to take her to hospital and turned out she had a fracture bleeding on her brain it was a horrendous time for us but it meant you know the leave I was given meant I could be there for five days and nights in the

hospital while we waited to learn that she would be okay so it meant I was there in the really important moments but also in the kind of more pedestrian every day honestly when people ask me what I did with the time I say I argued and argued and argued with my wife till we figured out how we were going to parent together in a way that felt great to both of us was equal was balanced and that journey of learning to become parents I mean I'm in awe honestly at the families and dads who managed to do this with so much less than I had. And it's time that we fixed it. It's not good enough. Sarah, let me bring you in here. There have been changes recently to the two weeks paternity offer.

What are they and what difference are they making, if any? Right. So previously, paternity leave was two weeks. So one or two weeks at statutory pay, which is around £184 a week. And what was happening originally was that people or fathers or non-birthing parents were able to use this within the first 56 days. What has changed is that fathers now and non-birthing parents are able to actually split that time so they can actually use one week for example after the birth or adoption of their child and then they can use another week later within the year so they're able to use that within the first 52 weeks. It's you know still to be

determined what effect that that will have but what we do know is that parents do appreciate flexibility. So being able to use leave when is most suitable for them and enabling parents to have that choice is important. But, you know, just to kind of highlight some points, it's really great to hear that Gabriel and Scott were able to take the time with their children um but it is important to emphasize that this is something that has been at the present time organization led we've got so many companies around the uk now recognizing the important role that fathers and non-birthing parents have and it should be that this is more accessible to the rest of those fathers that don't have uh the finances because that is a key barrier that is

preventing well can i can i put this to you from rachel she says sometimes you don't get any time off as a father if you haven't worked for the workplace for a certain amount of time this is shocking we need a family-centered society and a question from kate one of our listeners on x who says is paternity leave available 100 to all parents and if not why not can you just explain that to us so so there is eligibility criteria that has to be met so duration of work uh duration of employment is one of them um and and yes i myself uh so my colleague uh co-director of the Equal Parenting Project alongside me, Holly Burkett at the University of Birmingham, her and I conducted

research. And, you know, we often found ourselves talking to fathers and non-birthing parents that actually were saying they were excluded from taking paternity leave because they didn't meet that eligibility criteria. And that is absolutely terrible because that was a time that's really precious to them to spend time with their partner, to spend time with their child and to hear stories where they actually aren't even able to have that quality time with their child, coming home with the child in the crib, falling asleep, falling asleep, you know, and, and they miss that. They miss it entirely. So again, you know, this is something that's, you know, important to highlight that, and you raised this at the beginning, the fact that the Labour Party is going to be having a review within

their first year. So I'm hoping that they will hear these voices they will hear and recognize the importance of addressing the eligibility criteria the duration of leave the pay that is offered to fathers and non-birthing parents because so often that is actually excluding them from an experience that is so important that time with their family And that term missing out comes up time and time again. Scott, I know that you took some paternity leave, but then you got to a point where you could no longer afford to take it. Yeah, that's right. I mean, after 17 weeks, unfortunately, we would have dropped to statutory only

and we simply couldn't afford that. My wife is an incredible woman, but she had a really difficult pregnancy. She had a C-section and with all that that entails, Esme had to be admitted straight to Skiboo because she was premature and she had congenital pneumonia. And we had we had two weeks of worrying in Scaboo special care baby unit before before she was discharged home. And then, you know, in that all that clear, my wife, she was trying to establish breastfeeding. And because Esme was so small

that was a real issue. We wanted to do all sorts of things. We wanted to take Esme to sing and sign and baby swimming and baby massage and frankly we didn't have time to do any of that because we were back to work. Our shared parental leave was set up in quite a weird way, I guess. Less than 5% of people of parents take shared parental leave, according to the DadShift stats. Thank you very much for that. And it was incredibly complex to organise. But it meant that after the initial four weeks, I was back to work for a week and then I would take a week's leave while Claire went back to work. And we leapfrogged a week at a time until the 17 weeks was up so even though we're talking about shared parental leave

the way we had to work it to get any decent time off and again this isn't this isn't to do with our employer or anything like that um it's it's the way that the system is set up um it wasn't really true shared parental leave at all and i think your story highlights that you just don't know what challenges you're going to face when you have a baby you have all these plans for baby massage and other things and then like you were saying george you know your baby can have an accident can fall unwell mother might be unwell we've got this message from a listener who says i'm on maternity right now with it with my three week old recovering from a c-section and my partner has just gone back to work.

Paternity is so old school. His employer asked for four weeks notice of when he was going to take the leave, but a due date isn't a definitive date. I ended up being one week and five days late, so we had even less paternity. It's just unfair on fathers, but leaves mothers in the luck too. Makes me wonder if it's linked to mother's anxiety for wanting medical interventions to get labours started really interesting point thank you for your message you must hear stories like this all the time george yeah and i mean it's appalling um it's outrageous as sarah said there are some companies already stepping up giving decent

enhanced offers and that's fantastic but if you're a local small business if you're the pub down the road that's where you need government help so we local small business, if you're the pub down the road, that's where you need government help. So we're calling on government to level up the UK's paternity leave offer because of stories like this. It's not good enough for British families, and it's not good for the society either. Keir Starmer during the general election was attacked for trying to spend Friday nights with his kids,

and he defended his right to do so really robustly. And that's why we're pretty confident that now's the time and he's the Prime Minister to deliver this change. He's a dad, he knows what it's like, he's spoken on record about how important that time is. So surely he can see the point of other fathers and co-parents across the country. So we're excited to take this message to him, we're excited for Labour's review, and we think something really serious can be done. Sarah, on that point made by Scott about the number of people taking up shared parental leave being so low, I know that you've been speaking to employers and parents as part of your work.

What have you found? So we've seen that more organisations, as George mentioned, are actually, you know, recognising the important role of, you know, well, of leave after the birth or adoption of the child for fathers and non-birthing parents. And they have stepped up, they have, more organisations are enhancing pay. And there is a reason for it, it's not completely selfless, there is the recognition that it is a means of attracting and retaining top talent. But there's also, you know, the idea that it may improve organisation commitment, you know, in terms of that talent retention. And also just in

terms of the experience of fathers being, you know, better supported. So you're actually seeing organisations, you know, implement programmes, so coaching on the return to work and things like that so it's it's very encouraging very positive uh feedback from organizations and um yeah it's it's something that um should be more readily available to more fathers across the uk so you know um let's see what happens one thing i want to put to all of you before we wrap up this conversation is if there was one thing that you think needs to be done to make the system more workable and better off for all, what would that be? George? So we're looking forward to engaging with government on the range of options. I see amazing organisations like Fatherhood

Institute and Pregnant and Screwed making the case that we should have six weeks for dads. So dads should be offered and co-parents to six weeks, use it or lose it at 90% of the rate of pay to use at any point within the first year of a child's life. That would be a really substantial levelling up of Britain's offer to new fathers and to families, while at the same time recognising that we're in a context of constrained public finances. So we're really hoping the government's going to place that bet on British dads, British families, and level this thing up. Scott, one thing to make it more workable. I'm going to agree with George, but I'm also going to make a pitch for it to be much less complex to sort out.

Just now our shared parental leave arrangements are screamingly complex and they could be simplified and they should be simplified. So simplifying the bureaucracy around it, essentially. And Sarah? I think it's really important that we listen to fathers and non-birthing parents, but also to recognise that, yes, exactly what George was saying, we do need to improve the duration of leave, the pay that's offered, and also recognise that flexibility is a means with which we can better support families in the UK. Thank you so much, Dr Sarah Forbes, Scott Ingalls, and George Gabriel for your time here talking about parental leave policies, no doubt that conversation will continue as it is on our social media pages.

So many of you are getting in touch to react to this. I'd like to squeeze in a couple of more here. Parental leave. I'm glad one or two people have focused on the mother's health. There's a bit too much creeping general diminution of the huge physical and psychological impact of childbirth on women. Maternity leave was brought in to safeguard women's health, not just the baby. This may have been forgotten. Thank you for your messages. Do keep them coming in. And just on that, the Department of Business and Trade spokesperson has said

the government has set out an ambitious agenda to overhaul workers' rights and make work pay and we will introduce a new employment rights bill within the first 100 days. Our plan is committed to strengthening parental leave and we will review the whole system to ensure the parental leave offers the best possible support for working families. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Do keep your messages coming in.

That text number is 84844. And on social media, we are at BBC Women's Hour. And of course, you can email us. Next, what would happen if a mysterious woman on a flight began predicting the deaths of her fellow passengers? This is the premise of bestselling author Liane Moriarty's latest novel, Here One Moment. Leanne is author of 10 novels, which have sold more than 20 million copies worldwide. They include Big Little Lies, which is also an Emmy and Golden Globe-winning

HBO series produced by and starring Nicole Kidman and Reese Witherspoon. Her novel, Apple's Never Fall, is also now a TV series, currently on BBC iPlayer. Happy to say, Lianne joins me now live in the studio. Welcome. Thank you. Good morning. Good morning. Before we talk about your work, I'd love to hear a reading from here one moment. Sure. So I'm just going to read the very first sentence of the novel and then skip ahead. Later, not a single person will recall seeing the lady board the flight at Hobart Airport. The lady is small and petite, but not so small and petite as to require solicitousness. She does not attract benevolent smiles or offers of assistance. Looking at her does not make you think of how much you miss your grandmother.

Looking at her does not make you think of how much you miss your grandmother. Looking at her does not make you think anything at all. You could not guess her profession, personality, or star sign. You could not be bothered. You wouldn't say she was invisible as such, maybe semi-transparent. The lady is not strikingly beautiful or unfortunately ugly. She wears a pretty green and white pattern collared blouse tucked in at the waistband of slim fitting grey pants. Her shoes are flat and sensible. She is not unusually pierced or bejewelled or tattooed. She has small silver studs in her ears and a silver brooch pinned to the collar of her shirt, which he often touches, as if to check that it is still there. Which is all to say, the lady who will later become known as the Death Lady, on the delayed 3.20pm flight from Hobart to Sydney, is not worthy of a second glance, not by anyone, not a single crew member, not a single passenger, not until she does what

she does. Even then, it takes longer than you might expect for the first person to shout, for someone to begin filming, for call buttons to start lighting up and dinging all over the cabin like a pinball machine. Thank you. We are captured from the very opening. I hope so. An elderly lady walking down the aisle of a plane telling each of her passengers when and how they will die. What inspired you to, you know, what's the idea behind this novel? So I was actually on a flight myself out of Hobart, a delayed flight. And looking back, it was a time in my life when I was thinking about my own mortality, because in the years leading up to that day, a few things had happened. First of all, my sister was diagnosed with breast cancer. Then I lost my dad. Then we

had the pandemic. And then I myself was diagnosed with breast cancer. And also, I think just being in my 50s, it's a time in my life when I was thinking about mortality. And so when I was on that flight, I was looking around at the other passengers, and the cheerful thought came into my head that every single passenger on this flight was going to one day die. And so I was looking at everybody around me and I was thinking, will you be the person who makes it to 100? And will you be the person whose life is unexpectedly cut short? And then I was thinking about the fact that at some time in the future, somebody would be able to look back at all the names of everybody on that flight and list our age of death and our cause of death. So those are facts. They just weren't available

yet. And that's when it occurred to me, what if somebody stood up and shared that information right now? Incredible how the seed of a story is planted. It really is. Tell us about Cherry. So Cherry is the woman who stands up and shares that information. And we don't know at first anything at all about her. Most readers say they didn't like her much at the beginning. They're frightened. We don't know how she knows this information. She is the daughter of a very successful fortune teller. And then as the story evolves, most people love her by the end. And she's the main character, but there are many other sub-characters around her.

And usually in a novel, you'll have a handful of key characters. In this case, there are a multitude. Was that difficult to conjure up the personalities of all these different characters? Well, I tend to, I have a lot of characters in my novels. And I'm always thinking, okay, next time I'm going to write my next novel just from one character's point of view. And then I write Nine Perfect Strangers. Or then, as you say, I write a novel about a plane load of passengers. So it's just what I really enjoy doing, actually. So that's not, there are things that I found

difficult where I needed to do research, such as one of the characters is a flight attendant. So I had to do a lot of research on that. But actually developing their personalities, that's the part that I love. There is a line that stands out from the book, fate won't be fought, which raises the discussion about predictions based versus free will. I wonder what your thoughts are on that? Well, yes, since writing this novel, I've been talking to lots of people and some people are such firm believers in fate. And they say everything happens for a reason. And obviously you can't argue with them because everything that's happened was meant to be.

And I think I like the idea of fate myself when I'm thinking about I had to go through all those bad boyfriends to get the right one. I was always meant to be a novelist. But on the other hand, so I think fate only works for lovely things. I don't think that I can look at terrible things on the news and think that was that person's fate, that was that child's fate for their life to end that way. So no, I'm not a believer in fate.

I'm a believer in free will. If you were on that plane and you were one of those passengers and Cherry was there predicting when and how you would die, would you want to know? Well, it's interesting. I've come to realise that some people actually face that choice if they've got a genetic disorder in their family. And so, you know, some siblings decide they will do the testing and some decide they won't. I would want, if that was the case, and I need to look at it that way because I think like the characters in the book,

if you were told by somebody on the flight, you wouldn't necessarily believe them. And all the way through, you'd be thinking, I don't believe it. But with genetic testing, where it would be real, I would want to know. Yeah, it depends on the circumstances, doesn't it? Many of your novels have been adapted for TV successfully. How do you feel when you see the words brought to life on the screen? It's a surreal feeling. It's fun. A lot of it for me has just been fun to be on the sidelines

and to visit the set of Big Little Lies when they were filming the school trivia night. So to see Nicole as Celeste, dressed exactly as I described her, funnily enough to see Rhys as Madeline dressed quite differently, but I actually thought the wardrobe person got that right and that is how Madeline would have dressed. And to see the little props, to sit walk by two stuntmen

who were practising the murder scene. To talk to the caterer's mum. It was all just good fun. And so I've just enjoyed it from the sidelines. It's been hugely successful. And seeing as we're talking about Big Little Lies, there are mutterings of a third series. Can you shed any light? All I can say is that I am definitely writing a sequel to the book.

So when I wrote the first book, my children were little and they were just starting school. And now my children are teenagers. And so they're providing a wealth of teen material. So I'm writing a book set 10 years in the future. Many of your books rely heavily on the themes of female relationships and I wonder if that is drawn to any extent from your own personal relationships including with your sisters who are also writers. Yes I've got two sisters who are also writers I'm sure well I'm sure every author pulls on things from their life, whether it's friendships or family relationships. And I know with my very first novel, one of my sisters said,

this one is you, this one is me, and this one is another sister. But I think as now I'm on to my 10th novel, you've got to start making things up at some point. And 10th novel, there might be more coming because you have said in the past that, and I quote, to keep the page turners coming, you like to write a new novel every two years. Oh, it's been actually, yes, it was two years for a while

and then it became every three years. Okay. Yes, but Big Little Lies, the sequel, I might do that quicker. Well, we await news on that. Thank you so much, Liane Moriarty, on her latest novel here, One Moment. Thank you for coming in and joining us here in the Woman's Hour studio. The classic Levi's 501 jeans have been voted the nation's most iconic fashion piece of all time.

Originally painted in 1873, the 501 recently celebrated its 150th year. And second to the jeans came the classic Ralph Lauren polo shirt ahead of the timeless Chanel little black dress. Joining me to talk about all things jeans is Lauren Cochran, a senior Guardian fashion writer and Hannah Rogers, assistant fashion editor at The Times. Welcome to both of you. Morning. Lauren, I'll start with you. Why are the 501s, well, first of all, what are the 501s for those who don't know? The 501s are the classic Levi's jeans.

So the original shape that they, as you said, invented back in, yeah, what, 150 years ago? Yeah, 1873. And why are they still doing so well, in your opinion? I think that the classic status of them is why they're coming back. There's a lot of kind of interest from kind of people in their 20s for those kind of classic pieces that have what they sort of see as a kind of authenticity and timeless quality in fashion. And when you say coming back, Hannah,

I wonder whether you think they ever left the scene. Well, I mean, I've had my Levi's 501s for, I think, nearly 10 years and actually even tried them on again earlier when I saw the news about them being the most iconic garment. And I can see why. I mean, they kind of have this relaxed fit but it's still a rigid denim it feels flattering it felt flattering in my 20s it still feels flattering now and I think for many people who bought 501s originally they won't

have stopped wearing them because obviously not everyone pays attention to the fashion cycle in the way that perhaps Lauren and I do um but of the moment now particularly yes they are in the sense that these kind of like baggy looser styles have come back into fashion and so if you do have some in your drawer it's a particularly good time to bring them out again well let's talk about the different styles first of all Paris Fashion Week is underway and I've heard that it's all eyes on the baggy jeans or the not not just the baggy jeans the um flare jeans as well uh which I wore when I was a teenager are they back in? I think they have they have popped up on a few catwalks yes uh and I guess it's not that surprising because the kind of the baggier 90s jeans have kind of been coming back in over the past 18 months.

And now designers are turning their attention to the flared style. But if you actually looked on the front row rather than the catwalk, I think you'd probably find that a lot of editors were wearing what is known as the horseshoe jeans, which are terribly controversial. They are, as you can imagine, in the shape of a horseshoe. They're almost sort of bended out from the hips around the knees. I have to say that I have a pair. I can also tell you that every member of the Times Fashion Team also has a pair. I think to the average consumer, they look a little bit strange. And if you wanted to kind of try them

in a more real world sense, it's more of like a barrel leg or a carrot leg that is really trendy. Gosh, barrel leg, carrot leg, whatever, horseshoe. I mean, this is incredible. Is there an adjective that we don't associate with jeans? Well, let's talk about skinny jeans. Lauren, I have to say,

I was delighted when the skinny jeans became less popular um and they're sitting in the back of my cupboard I hope I never wish to wear them again but but do they ever go away I mean I think there'll always be people that wear skinny jeans for some people it's just part of their look um and yeah I mean the the sort of um the accelerated fashion cycle that we live in now means that there are rumblings of the skinny jean coming back um yes it's definitely i think with um gen z who originally kind of uh really roasted millennials for wearing skinny jeans are sort of taking them up as a kind of ironic um item to wear so we'll see and then off the back of the skinny jeans because people like

like me would moan that they're so uncomfortable you got the jeggings what do you make of that Hannah god well you say jegging to me and I just think of Topshop's Jamie jeans from back in the day which I was never out of when I was at university you know those really like high-waisted yeah stretchy denim um jeans which I I just thought were the coolest things on the planet. And I don't think I was alone in that. Am I an enormous fan of them currently? No. But if we had this conversation in six months, might I have changed my mind? It kind of depends what I see on the catwalks in the next week or so in Paris it is as fickle as that you know there's a

whole spectrum of denim out there and we all have this obsession with our jeans you know we wear them so often they really are a linchpin in our wardrobes and I think everyone is very conscious of how a pair of jeans can and why is that being that linchpin why do you think it's just that staple I think I think jeans have become something that a modern wardrobe they're the backbone of a modern wardrobe in many ways jeans are no longer this casual item you can easily wear your jeans to smart most of us many of us can wear our jeans to the office and I just think we're really conscious of how as I say a jean jeans can date your outfit and no one wants to feel on the back foot and

in as much as it's difficult to find a pair of jeans that suit you anyway and there is so much choice out there you also want to feel that the pair that you love is the so for Benjamin right pair um and I just don't think that really goes away I think it's quite psychological buying jeans yeah talk about wide selection there is one M&S pair of jeans the leopard print jeans that are currently sold out there's 12,000 people waiting to get their hands on a pair of them I don't know whether you guys have spotted them but Lauren what do you make of them and why are they so popular? I'm actually in the middle of writing a piece about those very jeans. Oh, tell us more. A preview, please.

Sorry. Tell us more. I mean, I think they are, they're sort of, they're kind of on, they've got like the halo effect of the Ghani leopard print jeans that have been around for a while and very popular. And I think that the leopard print jean is kind of a new way of kind of doing denim, like printed denim is another kind of part of your, might be another part of your denim wardrobe.

I'm actually wearing a pair of printed denim jeans today, which are kind of like a new part of my own wardrobe. So I think it's that. I also think it's kind of um the sort of the wide leg the combination of the wide leg and the leopard print is a sort of like win-win someone said in the office this morning that leopard print is now a neutral would you agree well I've asked lots of people for the piece I'm writing and they would agree so I would say yes leopard print the new neutral um let me put this message from Natasha to you both um I'd like to

highlight that denim production is one of the most unsustainable fashions responsible for huge consumption of water shouldn't be worrying about that in the midst of a climate crisis thank you Natasha for your thoughts Lauren your thoughts on that material and denim yeah I mean it is it is true they are they do kind of zap a lot of uh water production I believe Levi's are kind of attempting to sort of control that with their with the way that they produce jeans um but yeah I mean the other way that we can combat that obviously is by shopping secondhand though and secondhand levi's are uh even better than the real than the um the new one in my opinion yeah and this message that speaks to my heart just hate the clingy hot and sticky

elasticated fashion jeans i've at last found some without the elastic after several years walking out of the shops. Hannah, your thoughts? The waist. It's all about the waist, isn't it? It's all about the waist and you've got to find the waistline that is comfortable for you. I mean, we've all worn a pair of jeans at half way through the day. We think, oh, my goodness, I've got the worst trapped wind in the world. Why did I wear this rise?

I genuinely think and I think we will see a return to people going to try stuff off and try stuff on in the shops more anyway because of the cost of returns now but i do think it's worth spending time going in store and trying on lots of pairs working out which pair is the most comfortable for you um on the high street m&s Bowdoin are actually really brilliant for that because they do stock jeans and they are sized by waist and by length. Or go to a denim specialist, go to a Levi's. And, you know, I know it can be a bit torturous going into a changing room and trying on lots of pairs of jeans, but maybe 95%. It does feel like that these days, yes. But it's worth doing.

Thank you so much for your tips there that is lauren cochran from the guardian and hannah rogers from the times for their insights there upon hearing the news that the levi's 501 jeans have been voted the nation's most iconic fashion piece of all time thank you for all of your messages that keep trickling in a lot of you getting in touch on the subject of paternity leave rebecca writes regarding paternity leave, if my husband had taken four months paternity leave so he could stay home, we'd argue, argue, argue with me. Quite frankly, I would rather he stayed at work. Thank you for your honesty there, Rebecca, and for sharing that with us. And this one, I got only five days of paternity leave for each of my children. I still feel nearly 30 years later that it has meant

I don't have the relationship with my children that I should have. Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. Do keep your messages coming in at BBC Women's Hour. I am back tomorrow

with Weekend Women's Hour, the very best of the week, and I do hope you will join me then. All that is coming up tomorrow after four. Thank you for your company. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more

from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. I'm Helena Bonham Carter and for BBC Radio 4, this is History's Secret Heroes, a new series of rarely heard tales from World War Two. None of them knew that she'd lived this double life. They had no idea that she was Britain's top female codebreaker. We'll hear of daring risk-takers. What she was offering to do was to ski in over the high Carpathian mountains in minus 40 degrees. Of course it was dangerous, but danger was his friend. Helping people was his blood. Subscribe to History's Secret Heroes on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long

has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.