Woman's Hour - Afghanistan, Paralympics, Mary Poppins

Episode Date: August 30, 2021

We get the latest on Afghanistan with BBC journalist Sana Safi and talk to Seema Malhotra MP whose constituency in West London has a large Afghan community. She explains the help that's being provided to refugees.We go live to BBC Sports Correspondent Katie Smith in Tokyo who talks about female success at the Paralympics in Tokyo. We hear a live performance from the Zizi Strallen who plays Mary Poppins in the West End. She sings Practically Perfect accompanied by Isaac McCullough on the piano.We explore the notion of co-dependency with counsellor Susan McGrath, as well as a member of Co-Dependants Anonymous UK. We find out how co-dependency develops and what you can do about it. And mirrors: why are some more flattering than others, and what are the range of feelings that come up when we look in the mirror? We hear from mirror expert Dr Melissa Kao and psychotherapist Susie Orbach.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Padi with Monday's edition of Woman's Hour. Hello and thank you for joining us on this bank holiday Monday. The final plane carrying UK troops arrived at RAF Bryce Norton from Kabul yesterday, drawing to a close Britain's 20-year engagement in Afghanistan. For the many thousands who have reached the UK, the start of this week marks a new bittersweet chapter. But for the hundreds left behind who are entitled to come to this country,

fear and panic remains. We have guests ready to explore both sides of this. What can we make of the reports that girls and boys have already been told to study in separate classrooms and that many women are not returning to their workplaces with the Taliban citing security reasons? One woman who has been able to continue working after much struggle getting out of the country is the Afghan Paralympian Zakia Koudadi. She's now made it to Tokyo to participate later in the week. More on her

and the success of Great Britain sitting at second place in that medals table shortly. And here's one that we'd like your take on, mirrors. Why do some mirrors feel more flattering than others? Do you have a favourite mirror or do you just avoid them? We've mirror experts standing by to help us better understand our relationship with our reflection. Do get in touch with us with your thoughts and a treat to get our week off to a good start. Zizi Strallon, who stars as Mary Poppins in The West End, will be singing live for us a little later.

You can find us on Twitter and on Instagram. We're at BBC Women's Hour. And of course, there's always email and text. We're on 84888. Please do get in touch. There are now less than 24 hours before the deadline for US troops to leave Afghanistan, a date agreed with the Taliban. All other nations have already ended their airlift operations, including the UK. Yesterday, we saw that final flight returning with British troops.

As those evacuations come to a close, many are being left behind, desperately fearing for their lives. We're hearing that rockets have been fired towards Kabul International Airport and have reportedly been intercepted by a US missile defence system. The BBC's Lise Doucette in Kabul says she and her colleagues are still receiving urgent SOS messages from Afghans

who feel threatened by the Taliban. They include musicians, university students and female politicians. Another colleague watching the situation closely, but also with firsthand experience of what it's like to be living under the Taliban, is BBC journalist Sana Safi, who joins me now. Sana, over the weekend, we've heard more reports of the Taliban going house to house, not just in Kabul, looking for people who have worked with the foreign forces. Reports of women not going back to work because of security fears. What are you hearing? It's true that the Taliban have been reported to have gone door to door asking for people who worked with the previous regime, asking for individuals who

were vocal against the Taliban or their attacks. But it's also true that they have announced a general amnesty to everybody. And what seems to be happening on the ground is that there is a disconnect between what the leadership is saying and what fighters in different communities are deciding or the decisions that they make. What I'm hearing from Kabul is that life is still very uncertain. It's desperate. People don't know what to do. So they're still staying at home. They're not going to work.

The ones who do go to work, the employees of the Ministry of Interior, for example, one of them had gone to work, but he said that there was no one. I didn't feel like anybody cared whether I was there or not. And I also don't know what will happen to my salary. Are they paying me? So what was the point of staying there if I don't know whether I will be getting paid for it or not? So I came back. Banks are still shut. The bazaars are still shut.

There is no government. And I think most people are still waiting for that. The Taliban consultations over the formation of a government is still underway. And it seems to be any minute that they will announce something, but we still don't know. So life is still very up in the air, if that makes sense. Like nobody is sure. And there is a sense of utter helplessness. I've never seen anyone or Afghans so alone, so beaten in some way, so helpless, because I've spent my life there. I was there until the age of 18. I was born in Kabul.

Then I was raised in Kandahar and Helmand. I was seven years old when the Taliban took over the first time. So despite everything, I never felt that Afghans could be in such a situation that they are right now. It's incredibly powerful to hear you say that, that they've never felt this alone. And you as someone who's left the country but reflects back on those 18 years in a very fragile way almost. And when it comes to women specifically, I spoke to a woman a few days ago who's an air hostess who hasn't gone back to work. She feels like that's it for her career. We're hearing that medical doctors, female medical doctors are being told not to go

back to work. Again, the Taliban saying it's uncertain and it's not safe for women to go out. What are you hearing about women who want to go back into the workplace? So the Taliban are, the leadership are saying that women employed by the Ministry of Health are now allowed to go back to work. And this is after 10, 15 days of their takeover of Kabul and after much criticism. They've announced yesterday that schools were, there will be no co-education for pupils. But if you look at what was happening on the ground was girls and boys were already studying separately. There were no co-educations in secondary and primary schools. At any stage? At any stage. It was only the universities where boys and girls or male and female members would

study together. And the problem with that is that Afghanistan doesn't have enough resources, enough human capital, enough teachers and lecturers for them to have separate classes. And that worries women in particular because they're saying that, well, we were already separated in primary and secondary education, but what you're saying is technically telling us to stay at home and don't study or don't go to um don't pursue further further education beyond puberty which is the traditional view of the taliban um so we that still remains to be seen what have what what what happens with that much uncertainty. Can I ask about the situation at the airport?

In terms of people gathering there, people still managing to get out, obviously it's the last day of evacuations. Are women and children being prioritised? They are. Airport in the first 10 days after the Taliban takeover was very busy. Obviously, listeners, your listeners might know what happened there. Huge crowds of people would form. They would stay there for days and even nights just to get on a plane and to leave Afghanistan safely. But in the last three to two days after the attack in particular, their port is empty,

the Taliban have taken control of their port, the security control is completely in their hand, and they're not allowing anybody without a passport or a visa. And that makes it difficult for vulnerable Afghans to pass through. Women are prioritized, and that's because of some of the schemes that have been announced by different countries, Canada, Britain, the U.S. And because there is, A, women are most at risk, B, the Taliban view of women or how they view women has not been generous. And I think they have every right to be worried and every right to demand a priority on some of these schemes.

So for the time being, it seems like they are prioritised. Of course, and we've seen some extraordinary scenes on board some of those flights, including a young baby, a newborn baby being born. Incredible. Yes, we had one case of a woman giving birth on board on the plane. And there were other cases of women heavily pregnant due any minute who were told that you have got to get yourself to the airport. And one story that I heard was the husband was so worried that he wasn't sure whether he would he would go but he also knew that if he doesn't take this chance then um the new baby or the the born who was yet to be born the the future of that

child would be uncertain so they just took that chance and and said okay let's go even if the baby is to be born on on the plane let's take that predicament isn't it um i know sana you've got a busy day ahead i know that this is a story very close to your heart, so thank you for sharing some of your thoughts. I'll let you get on as you crack on with the coverage of this developing story. And let's move on to speak to the MP for

Feltham and Heston and Shadow Minister Seema Malhotra. She's been working with the Afghan and Central Asian Association, ACAA, which has been helping to support Afghans arriving in the UK. Thank you for your time, Seema. First of all, tell us what kind of work you've been doing for the Afghan community here.

Well, I've been dealing with literally hundreds of cases from the Afghan community, and most of that has been coming through directly into my office as it has for many other MPs. But in addition, I have been having a team of volunteers located with the local community organisation and now working as well with the local council and others who are helping with the resettlement for those who are starting to arrive as well from Afghanistan. What is clear is the sense of desperation. People coming to the community organisation from early in the morning as well, queuing in the hope that they are going to get some extra help for their loved ones left behind in Afghanistan. And what's so clear is the human impact that this has had.

You know, it feels like we're living in two worlds. One, we're dealing with the local issues and life as usual in the UK. And in another way, you know, for me, for my team, and I think it will be the case for many MPs that have got local Afghan diaspora communities, and we have thousands in our local area in West London, tens of thousands. You know, this is like living in two worlds where very much our mind is also with what's going on with the updates we're getting from Afghanistan. I mean, it's just extraordinary how the impact on women is manifesting itself as well.

I think it's incalculable. I'm dealing with a woman MP who's in hiding, people here who are worried about their sisters being kidnapped because they may be Shevening scholars or involved in organisations in other ways. Women who are now single mums as their husbands are assassinated. I've been told of someone whose husband was just shot dead on the 14th of August. Retaliations for longstanding schools that are being settled as well.

Someone whose husband went missing when he went to go shopping for the family last Wednesday. Women who have been victims of domestic violence are now worried, eligible to come here, people who should have been evacuated, but the Taliban found out about the, you know, evacuations and they had to be aborted at the very last minute. But they're worried now about their ex-husbands getting control of their children under the Taliban. You know, there's an extraordinary desperate situation of women being pushed into poverty now as being, you know, because they're unable to work and they may be the sole bread winners. So, look, I think so much more needs to be done. I am very worried that, you know, the message that the government has been giving out with 1100 left behind is an underestimate.

And, you know, we've been raising that as opposition parties as well, because from our own casework that we're tracking, we know it's a lot more than that. And with so many of our cases relating to women and girls, there's no question that our failure to prepare has let them down

and will have appalling consequences for those left behind. And on that, we have had the Foreign Office joint statement from nearly 100 countries from last night, which says we are all committed to ensuring that our citizens, nationals and residents, employee Afghans from our countries will be allowed to proceed in a safe and orderly manner to points of departure and travel outside the country. It adds, we will continue issuing travel documentation to designated Afghans. And we have the clear expectation of and commitment from the Taliban that they can travel to our respective countries. We note the public statements of the Taliban that they can travel to our respective countries. We note the

public statements of the Taliban confirming this understanding. But as you say, a lot of uncertainty for the women who are arriving here, women who really should feel a sense of relief being here, but are consumed by the sounds of it with worry for their loved ones back home. In terms of resources, Seema, does the organisation, do the people that you are speaking to have what they need to set up base even temporarily here in the UK well I've been I think very heartened by the by the work that's going on by civil society and now local councils who have like my own Hounslow have put out statements saying that they will support the efforts for resettlement here. And I know as well that, for example, in London, the mayor has said that he's extending the right

to buy back scheme where councils can buy back homes for supplying affordable housing, and they'll be extended so additional support can be available for those coming from Afghanistan. I think what is important is to look at family reunion as well, because as people resettle, to be near their loved ones will make a huge difference to their own well-being and also the well-being of children who need some support. I think the statement that came out from the government is very, very important. And it does come on the back of a letter that we received as MPs from ministers saying that as soon as the immediate evacuations are over, their attention will turn to doing all that they can to helping British nationals and Afghans who have supported us and

their families. It's precisely that message of hope that the Afghan community need to hear. And that is what's coming through day and night into my inbox. I asked ministers directly about whether the schemes that were open will continue because we are very worried, especially with reports of 5,000 emails remaining unread. I received that assurance that those schemes that the government had opened would remain open. But what also is important is that there is that confidence that there will be safe exit for those who can leave and who are eligible to come through in some of the international schemes,

but also that we see nations working together so that they can work together on safe exit and then on the resettlement that needs to happen. The Afghan community must know that we are not going to forget them and they are not being abandoned. That is one of the most important messages that needs to go out. And it's clearly a very strong sentiment felt by the community. The diaspora, I imagine, are actively involved in all of this.

The diaspora community are actively involved. Look, I've been meeting with so many groups, even from before Kabul fell, you know, I'm not one of I'm not the only MP, I know that has been working into the early hours regularly, and has also, you know, cancelled my, my own break, because time has been of the essence. And I think what people are wanting to see is that as soon as people are coming here, they get through quarantine, that they will be, that they can play a part too, and that they've got the resources and support to do that. It will reduce the impact on the public purse, so people can be able to work quickly and have that paperwork assessed. But I think what is also important to remember is there are still

British nationals stuck in Afghanistan. There are people who have got, you know, where husband and wife or children may be different nationalities. And that isn't uncommon for families that may be settled in the UK as well. People who have been stranded a bit like we had East and West Berlin, you know, a situation that changed overnight. And I think the government has to be very clear that resources are urgently required with the Home Office and the immigration team to get this situation resolved so that families can be reunited.

Seema Malhotra, MP for Feltham and Heston and Shadow Minister, thank you for your time. And just to add that if you are worried about loved ones inside Afghanistan and need some official information or advice,

we do have some useful contacts on the BBC website. Just contacts on the bbc website just head over to bbc.co.uk forward slash contacts forward slash questions well let's move on to the paralympics in tokyo 26 gold medals so far we're doing very well let's speak to our correspondent in tokyo katie smith katie first of, we've just been speaking about the devastating situation inside Afghanistan. I know that at Tuesday's opening ceremony, the Afghan flag was carried by a volunteer symbolically. We now have the good news about the Afghan athlete Zakia Qadadi. She's made it to Tokyo and will be competing in the women's taekwondo.

Just tell us more. Yeah, so she's only 22 years old. So, of course, she's lived most of her life in the post-Taliban era. And she was motivated to take up the sport of taekwondo after watching the Paralympic Games in 2012 and 2016. And like many other women in Afghanistan, was, of course, encouraged to compete in sporting events, similarly to how their male counterparts could after the downfall of the Taliban era in 2001. Since then, she received this wildcard

entry to the Tokyo Games. But since the Taliban takeover, she's hidden herself away from them. She was sending out video messages urging the global population to help her. And as you mentioned, we've had the really good news that herself alongside one other afghanistan athlete who's competing hussein rasooli who's a track athlete they have now arrived in the athletes village here in tokyo they were met by the ipc president andrew parsons who's actually been sheltering them from the media so they haven't spoken at all but he said it's a really strong message of hope there were lots of tears he said it took a major global operation they went via France. They are now in Tokyo and great to have them here.

No comment yet, though, on where they might go after they've competed. What an effort to get her there. And of course, we wish her all the best as she takes part on Thursday, I believe. Katie, I wanted to talk numbers here because there are just over 4,400 athletes taking part in the Paralympics. Among those, 1,853 to be very specific are women. That is a record number, I believe. Who are the women who have stood out so far, especially over the weekend? Well, from a British perspective, I've been here in the Athletic Stadium most of the week.

And we had Hannah Cockcroft. She was one of the Golden Girls of London 2012, nine years ago. Picked up her sixth career Paralympic gold yesterday. She's a wheelchair racer and she lowered her own world record to take the title in the T34 category. Sophie Hahn as well, one of the most dominant athletes across the board here at the Paralympics, won her T38 100 metres title. Before coming into this, she was the only British woman ever to hold titles in the Paris, the Worlds, the Commonwealth and the European. So it gives you a sense of just how dominant she's been. Phoebe Patterson-Pine earlier today won gold in the archery. Lauren Stedman,

a name lots of people might know, she competed on Strictly Come Dancing back in 2018. She got a gold in the triathlon. And I've been stationed at the swimming pool as well earlier last week and there was a brilliant story there from a US athlete Anastasia Pagona she broke a world record to win gold in the 400 meters freestyle she's only 17 years old and she's a visually impaired athlete almost completely blind and she's become a bit of a social media sensation over the last couple of years garnered about 2 million followers on TikTok. And she makes videos about the stigmas surrounding blind people. She shows how she does her makeup. She shows how she gets by in her daily life.

And I just think those stories and those achievements really epitomise here in the Paralympics. Absolutely. Some great achievements, as you've highlighted there, and many more still to come. But I'm going to continue with numbers. Sorry, Katie, because whilst the number of women at this year's games marks a record they still account for just 42 percent of all athletes there why well I think there's a lot of social and cultural factors at play in this one you've got to remember there's still a lot of nations so far behind in their development and perception

of those with disability you then compound that with countries where women are also discouraged to participate in sport and also where there's still a major lack of grassroots options for para sports athletes. Someone we spoke to, one of my colleagues at the World Service earlier this week, Husna Kukundakwe, she's 14 years old, the youngest competing athlete in Tokyo. She's from Uganda, She's a swimmer and she has an arm impairment. And her mum was speaking to us on the radio and saying how she herself used to hide her daughter's impairment because she was embarrassed. There was so much taboo around it. And now she proudly says, no, this is who my daughter is. And she is now a Paralympian. I think as well,

there's a part to play in the legacy that there were and still are some male-only sports at the Paralympics. For example, the blind football is only competed in by male athletes. Yes. So there's a question of time, I think, encouraging women who now maybe realize they can compete in events like wheelchair rugby, which is a mixed event. Also issues around the lack of women in leadership positions in para sports too. But you said 42% of all athletes here are women. Certainly not where it should be, but it's definitely moving in the right direction. It's an increase over the last nine years.

If you look at London 2012, it's increased by 18.7%. And the IPC, the International Paralympic Committee, say it is most definitely one of their top priorities. That's good to hear. Let's look ahead now. We are about midway through the Paralympics. What can we look forward to in the coming days? Oh, plenty more. We're going to see the great Dame Sarah Story back in action tomorrow. She's already won one gold here. She's got two more opportunities still to come. 43 years old now at her eighth consecutive Paralympic Games.

And two more golds would also see her become the greatest British Paralympic athlete of all time. So what a record that would be. Currently held by Mike Kenny, the swimmer, 16 golds. Dame Sarah Story at 15. Currently we've got Kadena Cox going again. We've already seen her win two golds in the velodrome. She did an unprecedented double in Rio five years ago for a British athlete,

where she got one gold in cycling and in track running. She is trying to do that again here, so we will see her on the track. I'm in the national stadium right now. She'll be competing later this week in the 400 metres. And then later on today, a more kind of global icon, if you like, we're going to see another glimpse of her, Tatiana McFadden. She's one of the icons of the Paralympics, competing in seven events here in Tokyo. And an amazing backstory. She was born in Russia in 1989 into an orphanage. She was born with spina bifida, so she couldn't walk, but there was no access to a wheelchair. So she walked on her hands for the first six years of her life she was then adopted by an American woman moved to the States and has since changed laws as well in US schools to allow for equal opportunities for disabled students alongside able-bodied so again I've mentioned

it already but the stories here at the Paralympics are just remarkable. Brilliant to hear and hopefully our gold medals or in fact all of, that table, we are sitting at second place on that table. Hopefully we shall remain there, if not rise. Thank you very much, Katie Smith, for your expertise there out in Tokyo. You're listening to Women's Hour. Still to come on the programme, we're reflecting on our reflection. Which mirror makes you look your finest? We're going to be talking about good mirrors and bad mirrors.

And we want to hear your mirror stories. You can text Women's Hour on 84844. On social media, we are at BBC Women's Hour and you can email us through our website. And don't forget, if you ever want to catch up on a programme you've missed, do pop over to BBC Sounds online. We're going to talk about the arts now. The magical story of the world's favourite nanny

arriving on Cherry Tree Lane is back in London's West End at the Prince Edward Theatre. The stage version of Mary Poppins, adapted from the stories of P.L. Travers in 1934, continues to be a huge hit around the world since its opening in London 17 years ago. Taking on the lead role of Mary is Zizi Strallin, who joins me now. Good to have you here in the studio. It's been a super tough time for the theatre world, for the arts world, in fact. What's it like being back in front of audiences? It's just an absolute joy to be back. It's kind of indescribable. It was very, very emotional

that first night back. We sort of all got to the point where we sort of were thinking that it was never going to happen at one point. And then just to suddenly be there with an audience and performing again was just incredible. Well, it's happened. You are there. You're in front of the audience. But I imagine during lockdown, it was tough for all of us to keep motivated. But for you, there was a different chapter because you had to keep on top form although you know with your with your voice with training what did you do to keep performance ready? Yeah I think a lot of vocal coaches and fitness instructors that they were all incredible over this time a lot of performers have sort of side jobs of fitness and vocal training and dance training.

So we all kind of came together and there were live classes on Instagram and Zoom and everyone kind of really joined forces to kind of keep everyone's morale up and keep everyone's fitness and stamina up. That's good to hear. Let's talk about Barry. She's strong, she's confident, she's independent. What does it mean to get a role like this? I just think Mary Poppins is just an unbelievable woman. She says she's practically perfect in every way,

and she says it without kind of falter. She's so confident and independent, and to play a role like this makes me as a woman feel more confident every day. Just even saying the words that she says. And just the fact that she's sort of this central character that everyone looks to. And she's so magnetic. And she always knows what to do in every situation. And so I just love that she's a woman.

And you talk about your love for Mary and all that she represents, but she is this iconic, classic character. How do you put your own stamp on a role like this? Yeah, well, I obviously do feel the pressure of being Mary Poppins. Every single show I wait to go on and I think, everybody's got their own version of Mary Poppins. Every single show I wait to go on and I think everybody's got their own version of Mary Poppins in their head. You know, I had Julie Andrews very much in my head. But I think for me, I just sort of take everything that makes Mary, Mary, the magic and the confidence and, and she's a little bit sarcastic at times, you know, she's

cheeky and all of those things. And you kind of put that all together. And then I sort of put me on top of that and see what comes out. And that leads me to this email that we've had in. In fact, this tweet from Nicola Harvey says, Zizi Strallin, you have managed to inspire my 15-year-old to ask, nay demand, we listened to Women's Hour this morning after we saw you in Mary Poppins last week. And that leads me to ask you about the young cast members as well because you work with you know a lot of young

people this is a production that explores the relationship between children and adults through this magical lens how have you found working with them? I love working with the kids so much it actually keeps my show really fresh because they're all so different and they have to do so much in the show. They do more than me. They're on stage the entire time. And but they, yeah, they play the role so differently. So because I have to do eight shows a week, every show is different for me, which is fantastic. And they keep you on your toes, I'm sure. Yeah. All their characters in their own right as well. Totally. This is the second time you've taken on the role as Mary.

You did it for 18 months back in 2015. And during that time, you worked on the film version of Cats. What was that experience like for you? Working on Cats? Yeah. Oh, God. It was definitely an experience. It's something I've never experienced before.

I was in a visual effects suit and doing these sort of 16-hour days for seven months. But working with Judi Dench and Ian McKellen and all these incredible people, we were sitting having chats with them all day long. It was fantastic. It definitely varied. And then during lockdown, you then recorded the soundtrack album. I mean, you've sung that song beautifully there. How did it feel to record these iconic songs?

Well, we actually recorded it live from the theatre. So you can hear the audience on there and the live orchestra. So I think it gives it that real kind of magical feeling of having the audience there. We did it sort of over a few shows so that we could get a really great version of it. Okay, so it wasn't as live. It was, you know, built up over a matter of a few days. Yes, yeah, I think so. But it was, I think it gives it that sort of real live feel, which is great. Yeah, fantastic. I know you are committed to the show for the time being for the foreseeable future. But I hear that you've also turned your hand to writing a mockumentary. Tell us a bit more about that.

Yes. So it was something that I started writing a few years ago, actually, just as a sort of hobby in my spare time. I love that kind of W1A sitcom type mockumentary, The Office kind of thing. And so I thought, wouldn't it be fantastic to do something like that in the theatre so um I've sort of started writing it and that's kind of what I would really love to get off the ground in the in the next few years it's lovely to hear that you have your finger in so many pies for now enjoy being Mary and if you'd like to see Zizi as Mary Poppins it's on at the Prince Edward Theatre in London right now. Thank you for your time. Thank you so much.

Here on Woman's Hour, we welcome your messages. And there was one email from an anonymous listener that really stood out for us in recent days. And it's one that we wanted to share with you and address.

It's all about codependency. And here's some of that message. In the mid-90s I was in a relationship with someone who was out of work and sat about doing nothing but moan whilst I was working in a lowly job in a school and struggling to cope with his daughter who was really difficult. I was seeing a psychotherapist at the time. He gave me a book and said read that. It was called codependency. It seemed to be about my life history. It was a relief to understand why I had chosen the life I had and was as I was.

I was almost happy. I also understood that codependency is an addiction and went to anonymous 12-step meetings, which did help a bit and allowed me to end the relationship. After that, I was alone for a number of years and codependency was forgotten. Then, out of the blue, I met someone. It was amazing. He was married, but he made it plain he wanted to leave. I feel I should make it clear that his wife knows about me. It's not easy between us, which is obvious really, but I'm still seeing him and it's lovely. Needless to say, after quite a number of years, he's still living with his wife.

I'm allowed over two days a week, which I know is peanuts. Something happened a couple of days ago that really made me think about the position I'm in. I turned again to the codependency book and was horrified to realise I'm still codependent, putting up with second best. What do I need to do now? Well, thank you to our listener for sharing that honest account with us. Questions there, how does codependency develop and what can you do if your relationship feels unhealthy? I'm joined now by counsellor Susan McGrath and Catherine who is a member of Codependence Anonymous UK. Thank you both for your time. Susan, first to you. How would you describe codependency and how does it manifest? Well, I guess I would describe it as insecure attachment.

A person can have quite a poor sense of self and finds it difficult to assert themselves or to set boundaries and have those boundaries respected. I would say it comes from family of origin issues. The early years of a child are very important to creating a safe sense of self. And so if there is, are there any issues in the family like addiction or abuse or even neglect, the child internalises a sense that they're not good enough,

they're not lovable enough, they're not worthy enough. And that shaky sense of self, you know, you go into the world with that shaky sense of self and you are susceptible to relationships that are not nurturing, not functional. And it comes from that sense of really not being good enough at the core. Thank you for that Susan. Catherine let's bring you in here. What's been your personal experience? Thank you yes well I can very much relate to your listeners story. My personal experience was having relationships that were unhealthy for many years. So relationships with people who were unavailable to me, but I thought perhaps like your listener, that they would eventually become available.

And as Susan said, I had a poor sense of self. I had low self-esteem. I didn't value myself. I accepted crumbs. I accepted peanuts, as you said. And I didn't believe that I was worthy. And I also had fear of life, of living, of making choices. And I found my way via, I also had an eating disorder, because that was one of the ways I managed my feelings. So I found my way to Codependence Anonymous via another 12-step group called Overeaters Anonymous. I then came to Codependence Anonymous, which is all about having a healthy relationship with yourself and with others. And I have been a member of that fellowship for some 14 years and my life has transformed, relationships have transformed and I went from having relationships with unavailable people not valuing myself in relationships to eventually having a

healthy relationship with someone who was available I got married two years ago and I'm very happy in my relationship and I am a work in progress so I still attend Codependents Anonymous and from my experience we need the support of other people who are recovering in this way in order to find the strength to leave a relationship in order to find the the self-belief that we deserve better and also as Susan said often these codependency comes from our early life experiences, not having our needs met, emerging into adulthood with a sense of fear, a sense of low self-esteem, low self-worth, and then looking for ways to feel better about ourselves. But those ways are often unhealthy, getting into relationships that aren't good for

us. Well, Catherine, I'm really happy to hear that you are in a better place now. And as you say, a work in progress, but huge steps that you've taken and delighted that you are in a place where you feel more content. And Susan, important points raised by Catherine there. How common is codependency then? Well I think there's probably a continuum and that we're probably all on that continuum at one place or another. I mean we can all relate to perhaps not asserting ourselves or trying to please other people or loving to be you know wanting to be liked. It is a natural human phenomenon really. I think the problem comes when it starts to derail our everyday life

and it's probably more common than we are probably aware of and again it's degrees of codependence going from perhaps your life really not functioning at all to being functional but probably dissatisfied so and as the caller said you know it know, it doesn't really go, I mean, you can get healing, your attachment can be much healthier, but you're probably always susceptible perhaps when things are getting tough to perhaps go back to those old patterns that are not productive

of denying the self, you know, overriding what you need and want and perhaps going along with somebody else. I want to get an answer from both of you on this next question because it's really why our listener got in touch with us. What should she do Catherine? So what was interesting about what she said is that you know when she wasn't in a relationship it seemed that she wasn't codependent but then she got into a relationship and the codependency showed up and I I can very much relate to that. And, you know, we we do want to be in relationship, not just romantic relationships, but we want to be in healthy relationships. I would suggest that your listener seek as much support as possible because it's very difficult to break these patterns on our own. So 12-step fellowships like Codependence Anonymous,

where you are supported by people who have walked the same path and can guide you and support you. And also perhaps professional support, which I have had alongside the fellowship. So counselling or therapy or coaching, or we need people alongside us if we want to break these patterns and um and also to you know practice self-care which is you know we could talk for hours about that but connecting to yourself connecting to your heart connecting to your feelings growing your

self-esteem by doing things that are esteemable so taking of yourself. So if she can every day, ask herself, how do I need to take care of myself today? What would look like I was valuing myself? And these are simple steps, they might be being out in nature, they might be meditation or journaling or phoning a friend, but really acting towards yourself as though you really love yourself and value yourself every day. Really important question. How do I need to take care of myself today? Susan, what would your words of wisdom be? I would say my experience of codependency and codependent people is that they're very loving, they're very caring and they're very empathic and that we need people like that in the world.

But equally, they have to include themselves in the people that they care about. And as Catherine said, to take self-care is really key. And yes, that's what I would say. Well, thank you to both of you for sharing your thoughts on this, Catherine and Susan. And thank you again to our listener for getting in touch with her honest account about what she has been going through. There are links to organisations that can offer support and advice on the Women's Hour website. And if you have something that you need help with, perhaps it's an issue that you don't feel comfortable talking to friends

or family about, or maybe it's about them, do send us an email. We would love to hear from you and we would love to try and give you a hand working through those issues as well. We're going to spend some time looking at mirrors and our relationship with them now. How often do you look in the mirror and how judgmental are you when you see your reflection? Why do some mirrors feel more flattering than others? Well, joining me now to discuss these issues and other questions are mirror expert Dr Melissa Cao and the psychotherapist and author Susie Orbach. Melissa first I know you've been looking at many changing rooms in all types of department stores and dress shops how much do they differ when it comes to

mirrors and lighting for example? Yes hello yes they do a lot. And we come to a conclusion of what actually makes a good mirror and what flatters you. And what we call it a bad mirror where it's actually accentuating your imperfection, if you want to put it that way. And we see that come down to three points is the angle of the mirror, the tint of the mirror and the lighting surrounding the mirror. So the angle of the mirror is the most flattering is when the mirror is actually slanting away from you. So they lean on the wall with a slight slant with the bottom nearer to you and the top away from you. These actually magically elongate your legs. I love your use of the word magically, yes. So it gives you the proportion that you probably like to see.

So that's a bit more flattering. Then the tint, you probably know a normal mirror has got a green tint because of the iron it has inside. That's probably the most unflattering way because it gives you that green tint. So we're looking at a rose tint, which is probably the best because it gives you a sun-kissed complexion, which again is flattering you. Elongated legs and a sun-kissed complexion. Yes, go ahead. And when it is then the lighting that is surrounding where you stand in front of the mirror,

if you have a very strong light above you, like a spotlight right above you, it's shining down on you, it's casting the shadow down. So where your jawline, all your eye bags are all accentuated, and probably accentuating the wrong places on what you're wearing. So the best lighting will be a dispersed light. So imagine sunlight is very dispersed. So it actually softens all those imperfections.

So ideally, you want a light that's actually um in front of you from the mirror and and we do see a lot of some of the fitting rooms that have got it right they actually have lights two strips of lights either side of the mirror which actually gives you all that um uh um and flattering uh effect it softens all the impure you know imperfection and also lets you look a bit clearer on yourself. There you have it, the art of the perfect mirror. We've had a couple of emails from our listeners

who are adding to those words of wisdom as well. This is Sue Caruana who says, The biggest effect on how you see yourself in a mirror is where the lighting is coming from. The best place for a mirror to see yourself well is with the light source behind the mirror. And the worst is coming from. The best place for a mirror to see yourself well is with the light source behind the mirror. And the worst is to have the light source, for example, a window behind yourself.

And Roma Berry's got in touch to say she worked in the old BBC broadcasting house for 50 years where we are right now and says she always started the day on a high because of the slightly orange mirrors in the lift that made her look so good. I'm not quite sure I have the same feeling, but thanks very much, Rima. I shall check them out next time, those slightly orange mirrors in the lifts. We live in an age of social media, Melissa.

I want to understand whether the same principles apply to taking a selfie. Yes, actually. Now we have a lot of, you know, those selfies taken with a ring mirror that actually go around your phone that is trying to create that effect as well about the lighting. So the light actually comes from behind your lens. So it's giving you the dispersed light. And a lot of people are also having a lot of tips and you could get the best selfie is where you actually angle your phone a bit lower down you want to angle your phone from waist down rather than top down so you don't want to have a tall person taking your phone at eye level so you want to lower it down to your waist level or or lower so to give you again that elongation

it's so technical. I just stick the camera up in front of my face and click, click. And there you have it. And a really important question here in your home, where should the mirrors be? Actually, I have put some tricks for myself too. I actually put door, at my front door. At my front door, I have got a lot of windows, so it's a foyer. So I do have some dispersed lighting there, which is good. And I have this heavy mirror, so I didn't hang it. So I put it on the floor. So naturally, you would lean the mirror onto the wall.

So again, giving me that angle. The only thing I don't have is I didn't have the orange mirror or the rose tint. I have a normal mirror, but I get the angle right and the lighting right. Well, I have a great tip. I'm slightly worried about that now. So near the door, I'm going to keep that in mind, although I've already got one near the door and I'm not sure it's doing justice. It's not doing its job very well. But you very much Melissa Dr Melissa Cowell there I want

to move on to Susie Orbach who joins me in the studio now Susie let's go back to basics here why do we look in mirrors well I says a lot of different reasons I think sometimes we look to confirm that we're okay sometimes we want to fix ourselves as these mirrors, sometimes to avoid those things that are called imperfections, which I really... But mainly we have an internal mirror. We all have an internal eye. And we look in the mirror to check out that what we're projecting is what we wish to project. But the problem is the minute we're engaged in the mirror, we're already throwing a particular view about ourselves onto the mirror. I mean, not only are we seeing ourselves in reverse,

but because of our mood or our longing or our delight that day, we project that onto the mirror. So there's no such thing as a mirror that isn't a mirror that has an engaged person involved in it. So it's almost as if we're trying to confirm or correct our own self-perceptions. I think so, yes. I mean, I think it's quite, if we watch others in the mirror, we always giggle because of the faces that people make and the way in which they'll strike a position. I mean, now it's very much with youngsters, even four and five-year-olds who are playing to camera the whole time. And that is another kind of a mirror, isn't it?

Well, you're talking about pulling faces. Why do we do that? My husband does that. It really annoys me. He squints slightly just to kind of get the angle right. I don't know. I was thinking about this and I was thinking, well, when I was about 12 or 13 or 14,

I really wanted to be glamorous at the same time as be a beatnik which I think was an impossible idea so there was something around pouting that was really critical and having dark glasses and maybe he got stuck in that position I don't know what the squint was maybe we just don't realize we're doing it right I think I think finally you grow out of it, actually. Finally. Yes. Yes. Well, hopefully. So what is a healthy relationship with your mirror? I think that's such a damn good question. I think it probably is checking on yourself that you feel as comfortable as you can before you go about your day. It's not checking every mirror that you ever see. And it's not being petrified when you see yourself on Oxford Street or in a public place and you see this person coming at you that isn't you but is somehow related to you. So I think it's getting dressed and brushing your teeth.

You probably look at yourself when you're brushing your teeth. Getting yourself together brushing your teeth. You probably look at yourself when you're brushing your teeth. Getting yourself together and just looking. And that is it until you need to fix yourself up again. Absolutely. We've had this email in to us from Lynn Baker who writes, Mirrors, like weighing scales, are instruments of the devil. Absolutely. There is a great saying, she writes,

Better to keep your mouth shut and have them believe you're an idiot than open it and confirm their beliefs. It's the same with mirrors. Better to avoid them and believe you're ugly than to look at them and confirm your worst fears. I avoid cameras for the same reason. There's one academic whose work I followed who decided not to use a mirror for a whole year. And she got married in that year. And she had to develop an internal strength of recognising that she existed in space, that she was a physical being, she was an energetic being

rather than a flat surface, which is what, of course, a mirror is. But it's pretty hard not to look in a mirror, isn't it? Yeah, I think it is quite hard because we're surrounded by them. And I think not only mirrors, we're surrounded by Zoom. And many, many people are not turning off self-view. So instead of looking at each other as we are at the moment, they're looking at themselves, which is yet another distortion. Because the thing about a mirror is you're looking at yourself as a surface. And none of us are surfaces. We have the most mobile of faces and eyes and

cheeks and smiles and eyebrows, everything. And so when you catch yourself in a mirror, it's a frozen millisecond, which is not expressive of who you are. And so it's a really major distortion. I mentioned the selfie to Melissa there, but how much do you think social media has exacerbated or exaggerated the situation that we're talking about? Well, the Chinese cameras about five years ago, had on eight different levels of beauty. You just simply took a photo and you said what level of beauty you wanted. And there are massive bloggers, I suppose they would be, who have followings because of their capacity to become Hollywood stars, Hollywood-type stars, to decorate themselves in ways that present an image that is...

So I think it's absolutely critical. And we know that in certain surveys where young women are looking for likes, when they don't get them, they pull down their picture and then spend the several hours and operations to push them out again to try and get more like so I think it's quite damaging and it sort of relates to an earlier theme that we were talking about is not valuing oneself as feeling that one's value has to come through that external experience in this case which is instead of risking that you might actually be okay. And of course, it's important to stress that it's not just women who have a complex relationship

with mirrors, men do too. Yes, I think it's growing now. Unfortunately, it's growing. I wish they weren't having the same kind of difficulty and obsession. But you know, it's just too damn big a market to avoid men and men's appearance and men's fashion and men's makeup and therefore men's mirrors absolutely well susie you're back we appreciate uh you giving us a few tips there dr melissa cow the art of the perfect mirror going to make a few notes now uh thank you and of course do get in touch with us if you want to share your thoughts on the mirror as well we are of course at women's hour on instagram on twitter we've been speaking about social media but if you want to send us

a picture of your mirror, a picture of you reflecting in your mirror, if that makes sense, then please do. We'd love to share them as well. And we've also had this message from Caro Hutch on Twitter who's done just that. She's been in touch with us at BBC Women's Hour and she writes, Mary Poppins

is such a brilliant show and all the cast are wonderful. My granddaughter was spellbound. I'm certainly very tempted to go and take a look at the production in the West End, taking place at the Prince Edward Theatre in London. But for now, thanks for spending some of your bank holiday weekend with us. Have a lovely day, whatever your plans. Emma is back with you tomorrow.

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