Woman's Hour - AI fitness instructors, Rosalia, Brazilian jiu jitsu

Episode Date: May 7, 2026

A BBC investigation has uncovered misleading fitness adverts featuring AI‑generated characters that breach UK advertising rules. If you use social media you've probably seen them: polished fitness videos promising dramatic body transformations in weeks. They show chiselled physiques, striking before‑and‑after images and claims that you can look years younger by following a simple routine. The results often look too good to be true and in many cases, they are. Anita Rani is joined by Katie Gornall, BBC Sport Correspondent to tell us about her report alongside Kate Rowe-Ham, women's strength and longevity coach, who talks about how to stay fit for real.The classically-trained pop musician Rosalía topped many end of year polls for her opera-influenced album Lux. Last night she graced the stage at the O2 Arena as her sell-out tour reached London and last week it was announced she'll receive the 2026 Ivor Novello award for International Songwriter of the Year. Pop Critic of The Observer, Kitty Empire joins us to profile the artist. As a sex educator, Milly Evans knows more about contraception than most. But in the run-up to getting a hormonal coil (IUS), her social media feed was "flooded" with content discouraging her from using hormonal contraception, and she found herself doubting her choice. Anita talks to Milly about this experience and what she decided to do, as well as to Dr Zara Haider, President of the College of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare.Brazilian jiu-jitsu is regarded as one of the UK’s fastest-growing sports, with membership soaring from around 10,000 in 2016 to over 40,000 in 2025, according to the UK Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Association. An increase in the number of women taking up the sport has been a factor in this growth. To find out more, Anita is joined by Lauren Brown, chair of the UK Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Association, and Frankie Renda, a Brazilian jiu-jitsu European silver medallist and coach at ARMA Gym in London, where 40% of members are now women.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Simon Richardson

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Why are more women turning to this martial art? We'll also be discussing how social media has made one woman, who happened to be a sex educator, doubt her contraception choice because of the messages on her algorithm. Talking of messages, have you ever seen an ad promising you a great body shape? We'll be understanding how misleading these AI-generated commercials are.

And Rosalia. She's just done two nights at the O2, so who is she? We'll be finding out. And only yesterday, on my own Instagram, I put up quite a cryptic post last night saying I was choosing to stay in rather than go out. And it was necessary because of self-care. Well, it was actually the Rosalia gig that I'm missing. I've always loved my ability not to suffer FOMO, but coming into work the next day to talk about the gig of all gigs that I missed out on is actually testing my resilience. So this morning, I want to know about a time that maybe you missed out on something amazing.

I actually have pretty good form when it comes to this because I often decide to stay in. And I was once stuck on a night bus while my mate was hanging out with the red hot chili peppers. So that happened. So make me feel better this morning by sharing your stories of not being at the place. missing out on something amazing how you felt about it. What was it? Where were you meant to be? Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844.

You can also email the program by going to our website or you can WhatsApp me on 0300-100-444. That text number once again, though, 84844. But first, the advertising standards authority is taking action after a BBC investigation found AI-generated characters making false and misleading claims about fitness workouts on social media. These included promises of dramatic body transformations and the legally required disclaimers stating the advert used artificial intelligence were often obscured or missing.

If you use social media, you've probably seen them. Polished fitness videos promising dramatic body transformations in just weeks. Chiseled physiques, striking before and after images and claims that you can look years younger by following a very simple routine. While Katie Gournell, BBC Sports correspondent, has been investigating morning, Katie. Tell us more. What led you to this?

What led you to do a deep dive into these ads? Well, excuse me, what led me to it was actually my own social media use. It all started last year. I was just doom-scrolling, really, and I paused on a fitness video of a woman talking about the benefits of a military-style workout. And when I first looked at it, it looked quite convincing, but then I sort of thought this doesn't quite seem right. The woman I realised, with a tiny little disclaimer at the bottom of the video, wasn't real.

Her body wasn't real, and the transformation that she was talking about hadn't actually happened to her. And I found that quite interesting that I was taken in by that. And I found it quite curious as well that I was being pushed this very sort of tailored advertising content. in this case for a woman, you know, 40 plus peri and menopausal who'd fallen out of exercise. They've got that part spot on with my algorithm. Same. And so, yeah, exactly. So, you know, I started looking at it more closely because I thought if I'm being fed this type of content, others must be too.

So I set up different accounts on different platforms. And I found very similar AI generated characters with similar claims. But some of those claims, as you mentioned, were pretty wild. So what sorts of things are they promising? We've heard a few things there. What else have you found? Yeah, they often follow quite similar formats. So you've got maybe like a podcast interview type clip

where you've got a trainer speaking to camera, a woman discussing her own body transformation, really striking and realistic before and after videos or women speaking as a group on stage, perhaps talking about their own journeys. And you get types of promises like try this workout, the gym doesn't work, transform your body in 28 days, lose 40 pounds in a month, look 20 years younger, things like that I've got sent, walking makes you old, Tai Chi makes you young.

And, you know, the characters are talking as if they've often personally followed these workouts and transformations. So I think for me and for others that I spoke to, it just raised a lot of questions around trust, body image and false expectations. What exactly are the rules on the use of AI on social media? So AI in itself, in advertising, isn't banned. And it's all about the messaging. That's what the advertising standards authorities say. Social media platforms, the big ones anyway, AI generated content should be labelled.

And in lots of cases, you do see labels. There's no rule around how big those labels had to be, but they should be there. we found examples where the adverts, the labelling was missing, it was unclear, it was hidden. And we showed those examples to the platforms like Meta and TikTok. They both declined to comment, but TikTok did say that to date, it's labelled 1.3 billion AI videos on its platform. So the scale of this is huge. But I think the important point is that AI isn't banned in advertising. The key question is whether the advert is misleading or likely to cause harm.

So if an AI character is being used to make claims about weight loss, body image, the advertiser still has to be able to substantiate those claims in some way. And that's where the ads that we flagged to the ASA fell foul of the rules. And what did they say at the ASA, the Advertising Standards Authority? So we sent lots of different examples to them. And they said, you know, they don't judge it on AI. They judge it on whether it's misleading, harmful and can't be backed up. And they found in these examples that the advertisers were unlikely to be able to substantiate those claims.

And they issued advice notices to those advertisers involved. They were first-time offences. They're very much about education. And one point that they've made is that given that AI is now at everyone's fingertips, it becomes very cheap and easy to make a lot of these adverts at scale. And you're putting advertising in the hands of people who aren't necessarily from big companies, who aren't maybe advertising on the traditional platforms of, TV and radio and maybe don't have the awareness around what the rules are when it comes to advertising.

But this is certainly like a growing area for them. They said they've received around 300 complaints from the public in the past year about adverts involving AI and that number's rising. And especially in fitness as well, you know, it's such a boom area. People are looking for advice often about their own fitness more and more. And so when these two things collide, it becomes quite a big, quite a big issue. is it to tell whether the person giving fitness advice exists or not? It's interesting.

Increasingly, as these AI programs become more sophisticated, it can become more and more difficult. Some are, you know, you would think, quite obvious. We showed a lot of these videos to members of the public, all ages. And even though they were saying, yeah, I don't really trust much online anymore, I am quite skeptical. Even those people who thought they were quite savvy in different age categories couldn't always tell what was AI and what wasn't. Sometimes they were little giveaways, but increasingly it is becoming very convincing. And I think that's one of the issues.

You know, when you're scrolling through these videos quite quickly, they are designed to look like traditional social media formats. And when you are scrolling through quite quickly, you're not always quite engaging with it, maybe, and you're not maybe always aware that it's real, and what's not. And it's increasingly hard to know who and what to trust. And we're all looking for the magic quick fix, aren't we? So they know what they're tapping into? So what impact might these adverts have on women of all ages by setting up such unrealistic expectations, I suppose? How easy is it to tell whether the person giving fitness advice is real or AI? And what exercise should we be doing to remain healthy? Well, to answer some of those questions, I'm joined by

Kate Rohan, Women's Health, Strength and Longevity Coach. Kate, welcome to Women's Out. Have you seen these ads? Yeah, good morning. How are you? Yeah, very good. Tell us about these ads if you've seen them. And what impact do you think they're having on women? Yeah, it's really disconcerting because actually even somebody like myself who is a qualified fitness professional,

working online, sharing things on social media, I have fallen down that trap of going, wow, you know, women are going to be falling for these programs where I think the fix is quicker rather than something like myself, who is a human being offering, you know, something that is sustainable and achievable to these women. And I think the problem we've got, we are living in a society where you've just said, people want that quick fix. They want that, you know, something that is promised to them. But it doesn't work like that. And it's dangerous. It's seeing people waste their money.

It's leading them down, you know, rabbit holes. And, you know, false expectations, like Katie said. And it's actually really terrifying, especially in the fitness industry. Yeah, what impact do you think they're having on women? I think it is giving women the illusions that they can achieve. You know, this, I mean, it's terrifying because we are going back to the sort of the 80s again. I think it's that skinny is better than strong. And I think that's the thing that really terrifies me. We know that strength, you know, is far more important than being skinny.

And I think women are having just. changed that narrative, they're falling back down that rabbit hole. And it's so convincing, you know, it really is in that clip you just played. You know, I remember stopping and thinking, wow, and not actually realising it was AI because it's not pointed out. And I think that's where the problem lies in the sort of the murky water between knowing what is AI and what isn't. Yeah, I want to know, I mean, why it's dangerous. I tell you which clip really jumped out at me. It was the end one where she said, I can't remember, I'm paraphrasing, but it was about even the doctor is coming to her or whatever, whichever way around it was. So, yeah, Kate, why, just why is this so dangerous?

Because women believe it, because we fall for it, because we absolutely go, do you know what? If a doctor, you know, we believe doctors, they are the sort of the gurus of all information. And if someone claims that they're helping other people, women believe it. We are, we are being sold so many mistruths. And it's actually not just with, you know, exercise. It's diet as well and the supplement industry is huge. And again, you know, we're looking at this sort of, I think, cohort of women that are perhaps sort of 35 plus and they're the women that I work with who are in that sort of perimenopause

phase who are desperate for help. They've had that sudden like, you know, mid-middle gain. They're tired, they're fatigued. They don't have time to exercise. And if someone can say to you, do you know what? If you do this for one minute, this amount of time, you're like, okay, I'm going to give it a go. But it's not sustainable and it doesn't really work.

So what should we realistically be aiming for? I think start where you are, for starters. Start with something that fits in with your time. I mean, obviously, I'm a massive advocate of strength training. So I would say to anyone, if they're not doing strength training, look at how they can incorporate that at least two to three times a week. If you are looking for fitness advice online, because that's the way to get it, try reaching out to the person.

So only this morning, actually, and this is funny that this has landed there. I had a text on Instagram from someone saying, I don't know how to start. I'm perimenopausal. I haven't got any time. So I point them in the right direction and I respond. And I think make sure that the response you're getting is from a human. Because, again, you can see those AI responses. You know, you know, who is the person behind that social media account.

And I think that this is, you know, really important where we're going down this AI, world that actually one of the things that hasn't been mentioned is for women in our demographic is that community and that connection that we want. And for me, that is without doubt something that is so important is supporting women and, you know, AI as wonderful as I'm sure it can be in things, it doesn't give that compassion to women navigating this time. And surely one size doesn't fit all. We should be thinking about our age, weight, general level of health. I mean, all these factors should be considered. Yeah, I mean, that, you know, a hundred percent. And, you know, women are going to be coming at this from all different, all different aspects, whether they've got

a level of understanding of fitness. Again, you've said age, time. What disposable income do they have? What access do they have to be able to do these things? And all of those are a factor. And again, everybody's menopause, again, if that is the route that we're on, is different. And so it's, again, And it's understanding and letting that woman feel seen and heard and supported. And giving them little tips and tricks so that they can incorporate something that becomes sustainable and achievable in their day. Well, look, you've got everyone's ear, Kate. Give us those tips and tricks. If you are someone who's eager to get a bit more toned or a bit musly, what works, what's safe, what's healthy?

Where do we begin? Well, first of all, obviously, I have to say, join my app because that's a great place. But no. And you've said it. You've said it. I think starting small and every day, trying to get outside, I would say like walking. I know that people, you know, they dismiss walking, but getting outside, getting that vitamin D, getting your endorphins going, walking is great for the salt. And build slowly from that.

So like I've said, start lifting weights if you can. You know, ideally 10 minutes a day, these things are doing something for one minute. It's a great place to start, but it needs to be longer that in order to make change. So I think meeting yourself where you are, placing realistic expectations on yourself. You know, you're not going to run five kilometres if you've never run, you know, a kilometre before. So start small, build slowly and find something that is for life. This isn't something that is for, you know, 30 days, one month, six months. This is how you look for the rest of your life.

It's about future-proofing your health. Thank you so much for talking to us this morning, Kate Roham and, of course, to Katie Gournell, well and I must say that the advice is to always consult your GP before you're sorting any new exercise programs. 84844 is the number to text. Lots of you getting in touch about when you missed out on something. Jenny messaged to say, I had a ticket for David Bowie ending a Ziggy Stardust tour in a small theatre in San Francisco in 1972 to 73. I was living at the time in Berkeley, working in a fab vintage clothes shop. God, this sounds like the start of a movie. At the last minute, I was overwhelmed with lack of self-esteem and anxiety,

decided I had nothing suitable to wear and didn't go. Oh, that does make me feel better about not being at Rosalia. Well, let me talk. Turn to the woman of the moment. The classically trained Rosalia topped many end-of-year polls for her opera-influenced album Lux. And last night saw her grace the stage at the O2 Arena as her sell-out tour reached London.

And last week, it was announced she'll receive the 2026 I have a Novello Award for International Songwriter of the Year. She was born in Barcelona and her album Lux showcases those Spanish influences, but not only does she sing in Spanish on this album, but in 13 different languages from Arabic, Catalan and Japanese. But it was her performance of the lead single Bergheim with Bjork, a full orchestra and a youth choir on stage at the Brit Awards in February this year that really brought her to a wider audience.

Well, to help us understand just why she's the woman of the moment is pop critic. of the Observer Kitty Empire. Morning Kitty. Good morning. So she, Rosalia, won the Brit Award in February. Best International Artist. Tell us more about her. Why have UK audiences taken to her and her music? She is such good fun. It's important to note she's remarkably versatile and has this amazing voice, a very well-trained instrument. And even though she sings mostly in Spanish, it's really no barrier to understanding her. She's astute, she's funny. Her calling card is she trained in Flamenco and other classical Spanish forms, but she's combined these with 20th century genres like R&B and hip-hop and reggaeton. So she's created a very unique sound for herself.

Tell us about her slow but steady rise to fame. Well, she's 33 now. There's a little-known debut album from 2017, but it was her second album, El Mar Karear, that got her notice because of this unprecedented. fusion of flamenco and R&B. And then after that, she capitalised on that with a series of releases. There's a song called Conaltura, which was released in the company of Jay Balvin, who was a reggaeton singer, and that really catapulted her into wider attention. So tell us about more of her collaborations. She likes a collaboration, doesn't she? Oh, she's done so many. The most notable ones,

probably just in terms of her rise. She collaborated with Bad Bunny, who got a lot of attention last year when he won the best album Grammy. She worked with him as long ago as 2020. On her third album, Motomami, she had a track with the massive USR&B star The Weekend. That was a track called La Famer. And obviously, Björke, as you referenced. If Bjork says, yes, I'm going to appear on your track, you've basically got the seal, haven't you, from Bjork? Just listening to that, we can hear her opera influences.

So tell us more about her musical references. So on this track specifically, you have these Wagnerian elements. And then at the end, it turns into banging techno. Title is a reference to a notorious Berlin nightclub. So her influences are vast and wide. It's really important to note that this latest album looks, which means light, It's a 180 degree handbrake turn from the reggaeton of Motholami. So she's here, here she's embracing European high culture.

So there's opera, there is art, there is ballet. And it might well be that she sustained a tiny bit of criticism or just observations about her use of reggaeton because she's a Spanish artist kind of using quite gritty Latin American street music. so some people in that world were a bit like, hmm, not quite sure about this. But ultimately, she has a huge, huge palette to paint from. And on this album, looks, she sings about female saints and mystics and not just about those in the Catholic tradition. She was brought up in.

Tell us about them. So the album is about the sort of tension between heaven and earth, a love for the divine and a love for the earthly. And so there's some familiar people to women's hour audiences, people like Hail the God of Bingen in the Catholic tradition. And there's a great saint called Saint Olga of Kiev. She's amazing. Look her up.

But there's also room for people like the Sufi mystic Rabia Basra. I think her name is properly Rabia al-Adawi. There's a 17th century Japanese poet and nun. Again, my pronunciation may be not great, but Rionnen Genzo. on a track called Porcelana. So she's exploring women who have turned their back on the world to pursue metaphysics, almost.

It's probably worth noting that in the run up to Lux, she called off an engagement and there are, this is me riffing, but there's a lot here about women who kind of turn their backs on the world and decide to love God. Interesting. I listen to the album,

like on repeat last year, but I couldn't actually understand what she was singing about, but had to read about it. So how does she kind of communicate what she's singing about to the audience? Well, live, I mean, you mentioned those two or two arena shows.

There's sur titles, so opera audiences will be familiar with sur titles. It allows you to understand what's going on in German and Italian. So she's using these electronic surtitles in the language of where she is playing. I mean, I'm sure in France, they're in French, etc. So there's really,

barrier to understanding the themes. And obviously she's great in English. So between tracks, she's chatting away. She's very sort of garrulous and personable and explaining things as she goes along. Not that we should compare, but where would you place her as an artist? My lovely friends who were all there last night have been messaging me like great mates this morning telling me that I missed the best gig ever. But in your wisdom, where would you put her? Well, the parallel with Björke is important. They work together before Bergheim as well. Birk is an author and I think Rosalia is very much an author.

She is a musician who can play instruments. It's all coming from her. There's obviously a moment at the moment where we've got people like Ray who are extraordinary. So Rosalia and Ray are basically just bossing pop at the minute as far as I'm concerned. And obviously this rising tide of Latin pop, you know, people with Bad Bunny, she is very much in that conversation as well where Spanish language. pop is becoming a very dominant force. Yeah, we love that Rosalia and Ray are bossing pop.

Do we know what's going to come next from her? Well, she's got this world tour to finish. So probably nothing new, but whatever it is, it's going to be unexpected and extraordinary. And we'll be waiting for it. Kitty Empire, thank you so much. 84844 is the text number. I'm going to read out a couple more of your messages. So many coming in. Leslie's written in to say, in 1974, I was a student at Brunel University in London, The Students' Union were offered complimentary tickets to see an up-and-coming band at the Hammersmith-Odion.

It was the breakthrough gig of Bruce Springsteen and the East Street band. I couldn't be bothered to go. I'd seen footage of it and have regretted it ever since, even though I've seen the band three or four times now. I'm so sorry, I'm bringing up all these painful memories for you. Julian Nottingham says a friend of mine called me many years ago that her eldest son was promoting a new band in Nottingham that was going to be the next big thing. I declined as was tired and missed the Arctic monkeys. Keep them coming in. 84844.

Now, a sex educator, Millie Evans, knows more about contraception than most. But in the run-up to getting a hormonal coil, an IUS, her social media feed was flooded with content, discouraging her from getting hormonal contraception. And she found herself doubting her choice. Well, Millie joins me now, along with Dr. Zara Hyder, who's been, president of the College of Sexual Reproductive Health. Morning, I'm going to come to you first, Millie, as you're sitting right in front of me. Explain how you'd come to this decision of getting this type of contraception in the first place. Tell me, take me back. Absolutely. So I started thinking

about my contraceptive choices towards the end of last year and there were so many different options. I was trying to figure out what might work for me because when I was a teenager, I took the pill. It didn't really work for me. So since then, kind of stuck to things like condoms. But I wanted something that kind of put the control in my hands because I want to be in control of like my reproductive choices. So I started thinking about the IUD. I'd heard loads of things about it. There are hormonal and non-hormonal options. So I thought that might be something to look into. And as soon as I started thinking about contraception, I started being served up content about it. And I was really overwhelmed by how much of it there was and how much of it was very, very negative. I mean,

as a sex educator, I know a lot about contraception, like you said. And so I started, doing my own research into coils and I thought this might be a good option for me. They're long-lasting. They're very, very effective. But seeing all that content on my feed really just made me think, is this actually for me? All right. What kind of content? A mixture of people showing their very genuine, real experiences, which I think they absolutely should be able to share, people wanting to advocate for themselves, having had really difficult experiences of healthcare, not feeling listened to or having had painful experiences.

And then there was another kind of content which was very deliberate misinformation. So people saying that contraception causes cancer, causes infertility, that it has horrendous side effects. And those two kinds of content are actually quite hard to distinguish from each other because often the intentional misinformation plays off the very real experiences that people are sharing. So how long did it put you off getting your coil fitted? What happened? Tell me, taught me through the sort of the doubt. and what happened to your psychology whilst you were seeing all these messages coming through on your device?

Yeah, at first I felt very confident I'll just book a consultation and go and speak to a sexual health nurse. But I ended up putting off that appointment for about six months, which is a long, long time. And I think it's just the fact that there was so much of it to go through. And even though I felt I had the information available to me, I'm a very health literate person. I know where to get my information from. it was more the fact that people were showing their kind of very scary experiences. I have a bit of health anxiety. And so hearing people talk about side effects, about painful insertions,

maybe just think, is this going to be worth it? Who wouldn't? Absolutely. You know, what would you say, I mean, as a health educator, what would you say to somebody who came to you to discuss that this was happening to them? Yeah, I would encourage them to go and speak to a healthcare professional. And ideally, someone who's working in sexual health, I'm a big champion for sexual health clinics because they are really specialists.

They do this day in, day out. They really know their stuff. And they're very good at reassuring you. Everyone at the sexual health clinics I went to when I did get my IUD inserted was so lovely. So reassuring, wanted to answer all of my questions. And I could also just say that my experience was really, really positive. It was a very easy insertion. It wasn't a lot of discomfort.

And so far I've had a very positive experience since getting that contraception fitted. Let me bring in a, uh, Dr. Zara Hider here. Hi, Zara, welcome to the program. Good morning. Morning. Are you aware of these posts? Oh, yes.

Oh, yes. Come on, then. Tell us more. Oh, Anita, it is, it's an ongoing problem. I see women every day in my clinic. And it's, I see my job very much as listening to their concerns and then unpicking their concerns and doing that damage limitation exercise. It's incredible what's out there.

And it really does upset women. and as Millie says, it puts them off for months, for years, getting a method of contraception which really could make a huge difference to their lives for so many reasons. But yeah, it is a problem. We're very aware of it at the College of Sociality. Yeah, so what are your thoughts about them? Well, it's really tricky because the social media is unregulated. And what we are trying to do is reach women where they are getting their information from.

So trying to get accurate, evidence-based information out there in a form that women want to read, want to listen to. So they have the facts about contraception. They're arms with those facts so that they can make the right decisions for themselves and encouraging women to come and talk to a healthcare professional. we listen, we again give them the right information, that evidence-based information, so that they can weigh it up and make their own decision about their contraception. Because obviously it's got to be a woman's choice. It can't be my choice.

It has to be her choice because she's otherwise going to blame it for everything that goes wrong with her life going forward. So it's got to be her choice. And I'm sure there are women listening to this, maybe in the same position, considering things. But, I mean, we've got Millie sitting in front of me who's in this field who was put off for six months. I know, I know. And there's women who are put off for a lot longer. And it's so distressing, Anita, because contraceptive methods not only for their fabulous contraceptive effect, but also for their non-contraceptive benefits. So women with heavy painful periods,

women with endometriosis, women with, I don't know, myosis, who could really benefit from some of these methods. These methods could be life-changing for these women in such a brilliant way, but they're put off because they're reading this stuff. and they're ending up suffering when they shouldn't be suffering. What advice, Millie, would you give to women who don't know what to believe? It's really tricky because I think that a lot of people trust information that seems to be coming from their peers. But I think it's really important to look into the kind of qualifications of the people

who are sharing information about contraception. There are loads of really brilliant sex educators out there. There are brilliant sexual health charities. There's obviously NHS resources. There are plenty of gynecologists who are making really positive content around contraception. I think it's just worth being really careful about kind of using comment sections and stuff as your advice around contraception because as a sex educator, when I talk about contraception online, I often find that my comment sections are filled with misinformation around contraception.

Also, I mean, we started the program talking about it, kind of the things that come into our feeds. And we know that kind of the algorithm will tailor itself towards what you're sort of slowing down to look at. So you're getting a really lopsided opinion anyway. Absolutely. It's really hard for me as a sex education. who produces fairly balanced, you know, very reasonable content. It's hard for my stuff to cut through because it just is not as grabbing as misinformation. You know, it's not going to be as scary.

It's not going to catch your attention for me to just give you kind of very reasonable, thought out, medically accurate advice versus someone who's saying, this was the worst experience of my life. And those two things just can't compete with each other in the algorithm the way that it's set up. We must discuss, Zara, about the IUD, because that's where we started talking about, is your choice for contraception, but that's not necessarily right for everybody, is it? No. One method of contraception doesn't suit everybody. So it's really important to have those discussions. Absolutely start online, finding information there. Contraception Choices is a website

that we run that's got fabulous evidence-based information in a really accessible way. You can look at the different methods. You can compare and contrast. But ultimately, having a chat with a healthcare professional who can give you all the facts, all the information you need for you to weigh up and work out what method best suits you, giving you an idea, so something like an IUD, how is an IUD fitted? How can we optimize that fitting to make it as comfortable and as pleasant experience as we possibly can? And you decided that hormonal contraception wasn't for you, really? It is. Oh, it is. It was for you. But what do we know about the common side effects, Sarah? Well, it's tricky. One of the things that we know is that there's just not enough

research done in our profession. There are studies, they're small studies, not such great studies, but it's really important to listen to women. If women come to me and say, Dr. Heidi, you put me on this pill and nothing changed in my life, apart from the fact you put me on this pill and I'm feeling whatever side effect, I need to listen to them. I can't completely dismiss that it wasn't the pill that caused this side effect. But we need to have a conversation working out. Do we continue with this method? Do we change to something else?

Finding out what best suits the patient. Michael in Belfast has sent us a message saying, as the dad of an 18-year-old daughter, this is regular, in brackets, awkward for me, tea time chat. Her mom is a GP and the challenge she faces as a parent, her medical professional is dealing with the misinformation. There you go, and she's a GP. To convince her of the correct facts so she makes good decisions.

dot, dot, dot. I'm not ready to be a grandpa. Millie, you are out there talking to people. What are you constantly having to deal with? What's the misinformation that you're having to contend with? Yeah, I would say that most of my job these days is battling misinformation. There's a lot of really outlandish claims about contraception causing cancer, causing infertility. And it's all mixed in there, like I said, with people's actual experiences.

There's a lot of people who say that it's going to have, I think people have a lot of absolute absolutism around contraception, that it will cause X, Y and Z side effects. particularly around things like mental health. And I think that comes from people who feel like they genuinely haven't been listened to when they have experienced those side effects. But like Zara said, we just don't have a lot of research. And I'm neurodivergent. And there especially isn't very much research around how contraception,

especially hormonal contraception affects neurodivergent people. Zara, is anything you'd like to see done to limit this misinformation online? Well, we need more people like Melly to be putting out that great content that she's putting out. And we are joining with social media, people on social media who are putting out good content, giving them information to make sure that they're putting out that accurate evidence-based stuff. Because it's so important that the right stuff is out there.

And also clearly labelled, so NHS, College of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare, so people can see where is the source of that information? Yes. Where is this coming from? Can we actually read this and believe it? Millie, you're out there giving people the right information. Do you see positive stories as well, though? Absolutely.

They're just not the one. which are going to go viral, unfortunately, but there are plenty of people who are trying to share the really positive stuff. And in my kind of DMs and in comments, I've had people tell me that they have had really brilliant experiences. They just haven't really thought to share it, because I think when you have a positive experience, you don't think to share that online because you're just getting on with your life.

Whereas someone who does have a bad experience is obviously going to be more likely to leave a bad review. And so I think that's kind of what we're going up against, is people who are just much more vocal with their bad experiences versus the many, many millions of people who happily take contraception are very happy with their choices. Yeah, there seems to be a bit of a theme for the program today where we started with sort of AI messages about women's health and again, women's health,

but kind of getting the negative messages, you really need to kind of be able to have a filter, I think, and speak to a professional. I want to thank you both for speaking to me, Dr. Zara Heider and Millie Evans. Thank you very much. 84844 is the text number. I'm going to read out another message.

When I was a little girl, aged about eight at school in Nairobi, I was picked to present a bouquet of flowers to John Glenn, the US astronauts. However, I ended up being leered away by some older girls into town to have an ice cream instead. They had their own agenda, which I never quite understood. I still love ice cream to this day, however.

I do have regrets about missing out on meeting John Glenn. Keep your thoughts and your messages coming in. Now, the fashion for muted clothes and toys caught the eye of writer and librarian Haley de Roche a while ago. She noticed that one colour had been taking over children's clothes and nurseries on social media.

beige. Haley was surprised at how miserable the children looked in the marketing images for the mushroom-hued stacking cups, sludgy, armish-style pinafores and oatmeal bonnets, and that these clothes have a hefty price tag. She made videos scuring the trend by pretending to be the legendary somber German filmmaker Werner Herzog and giving the outfits and toys more fitting names, like the locusts are coming. And in this life, the sorrows can run deeper than the oceans.

I'm really trying to hold back on doing my own Therner Herzog impression. The videos went viral. So what is it about the sad beige trend that has struck a chord with so many? Here's the conversation I had with Haley and journalist Martha Alexander. I started by asking Haley why she started posting these videos on social media. Honestly, it happened in a matter of maybe 10 minutes. I was just shopping for little stacking cups, as you mentioned, and I came across some that were very pale in nature. And what really struck me was not that the toys were beige, but that the marketing that went with them was so somber and serious that the children looked like they had just like put down their Marcel Proust or something and like, oh, I shall pick up the stacking cups now, Mama.

and it just made me laugh because the marketing was so different from what I think people traditionally think of children's marketing. You know, it's bright, happy, cheerful. And so immediately the first thing that my comedian brain went to was what's the most bleak thing that could describe this? And of course, it's Werner Herzog. But yeah, as a comedian, I just found it to be very funny. Did you have to explain who Werner Herzog was as well?

Yes. many times. But I love the fact that so many people enjoy the joke whether or not they know who Werner Herzog is. And of course, as a librarian, my credo is always that it's okay not to know things. And it's wonderful if I can introduce Werner Herzog to new people who maybe haven't known about him before in his work. So it's a win-win for everyone. And like you say, it's very funny regardless of whether you know the film directors or not. And we're not just talking about normal leggings and kids clothes.

These are sort of bonnets and overalls, outfits you'd expect tiny Tim in a Christmas carol to be wearing, but just really expensive. Yes, there was one particular one that just tickled me. It was a pair of velvet flare pants and the child photographed was in like a sheep field. So I just, it does not make sense to me, the marketing for these things. the juxtaposition of the price tag and looking like a Dickensian orphan or someone who is working in the farming industry, these are not clothes that would ever be actually worn by those people for those particular activities. And so it's just very funny to me that in a way, because these things are for the upper class who can afford them, that it's, I don't want to say it's poverty

cosplay, although some people have definitely termed it that in my comments. But I do think that there's a little bit of mismatch there. It's very funny. It is, and you make it absolutely hilarious. Martha, I'm going to bring you in. You can't look at TikTok or Instagram without seeing these perfectly tidy beige nursery and the perfectly tidy matching beige children. Why is the beige aesthetic so appealing to millennial mums? Because, you know, we've heard there Haley talking about the marketing. Who are the marketing at?

I think it is certainly for middle class moms and dads. It's also, you know, we live nowadays in a world where, Everything is, or needs to be very Instagrammable. We're always camera ready. And so our homes have become more like show homes, really, for the ground, often more than livable spaces. I mean, I speak for other people. That's not the case for me. I guess is this about wanting your children to fit the sort of perfect aesthetic that you want in your own life?

Yes, that's certainly the case from my research and the people that I've spoke to who readily admit that they are sad, beige parents, they don't want to compromise on aesthetics. They don't want their house to be engulfed in oceans of sequins and neon slime. They don't want it. They want scandy, sparse, minimalism. But then often these clothes are also being sold as an ethically good option. They're not just tapping into kind of the middle class millennium mum. Well, they are absolutely because they're tapping into the other side of that, which is this is going to be a better choice for you than having lots of

plastic waste. Absolutely. And to that, you know, I think it's really great, especially with the clothing that are ethically made. And I love the fact that I can go onto these websites and find, you know, where they're made and how they're sourced. I do think it's interesting that some of the toys that I come across that come in these shades are not necessarily any more eco-friendly than their counterparts.

There was one particular set of sacking cups that looked very recycled. They had that aesthetic. But when you actually looked at what they were made of, it was exactly. the same as the other materials. So I do think it's important not to fall sway to the greenwashing that can happen where you think that these colours are eco-friendly, but they're really not.

And surely, Martha, it's much better for the environment. Have your children in mismatched hand-me-downs? I think so. I think the sustainability is not buying. Buying stuff is, by its very nature, it's not sustainable. So if people really care about sustainability, and that's really where their, you know, intentions lie.

They are going to be looking at hand me downs. They are going to be looking at using clothing libraries. You know, we can say that stuff's organic and sustainable until the cows come home, but the reality is not buying. Yeah. It's the most sustainable thing to do. Haley, what you've done is so funny. And I feel like maybe for some mums you can breathe a sigh of relief

watching Haley's Instagram videos. What do you think, Martha? because she's just skewered it. Oh, absolutely. She has nailed it. I howled with laughter. I digested her whole account, you know, the first morning that I saw it.

And I think it does make people feel better. I know that I have had emails from women saying that they feel seen and they feel that they are less sort of ashamed about the kind of mess and chaos and mismatch. and that actually, you know, it isn't all about being perfect and there's more to life than being beige and Instagram mobile.

I was talking to comedian Haley DeRosch and journalist Martha Alexander mismatch. Just relax. Leave the perfection. Okay, Brazilian jiu-jitsu is regarded as one of the UK's fastest growing sports with membership soaring from just 10,000 in 2016 to over 40,000. in 2025, according to the UK Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Association, and more women are competing in competitions. The Women's Division at the 2025 International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation World Championships saw a 30% increase in participants over the previous year. So why are more women turning

to the grappling mats? Well, I have two women joining me to tell me why. Lauren Brown is the chair of the UK Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Association, which is the official recognising. National Governing Body for the sport in the UK. And Frankie Renda is a silver medal winning International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation European Tournament. That's where you won it. She's also a black belt and a coach at the Armour Gym in London where 40% of its members are now women.

So Lauren and Frankie, welcome. For listeners, Frankie, what is it? What is Jiu-Jitsu? And then actually, I should say, what is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? How would you describe it? Because they're two very different things, aren't they? So Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a sport that starts in a standing position

and you use judo wrestling or a way of pulling guard to get to the floor. And then you carry on fighting on the floor, finding better positions as you go through the fight and chasing for submissions to get to the end. So a fight can be won by points or by submission. What drew you to the sport? I was on a bit of a fitness journey. I was quite overweight and I had started about.

bit of weightlifting. A friend of mine pulled me into martial arts. Through those martial arts, I found the jiu-jitsu side of things. And when I embraced that a little bit, I just realized that I liked it a lot. And I then joined a full-time gym. Why? What was it about it? It's the way you can just lose your mind in it and not have the daily thoughts in

your head constantly. Just being there in the moment for a minute. And you spar pretty hard and you don't think about everything else. It's really what mainly attracted me to it. And feeling more confident. It made me feel more confident and safe around as well. It's just a great empowering thing. How long ago was that, did you say?

Nine and a half years ago? And you look incredibly fit to me right now. 20 kilos later. Yeah. And nine and a half years later, which connects back to the very first item we talked about. There's no quick fix. You need to be consistent. Correct.

That was a great segment. Lauren, how about you? When did you start training? So I started with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in 2010, so about 16 years ago, and I came from judo for about 12 years before that. So I've been in the martial arts for quite a long time. And what was the culture like for women then and how does it compare now? What's happened? Certainly when I started, there were very, very few women in Jiu-Jitsu. So, you know, you'd go to some gyms would have not even a changing facility for women, so you'd have to change. in the toilet. There might be only one or two only, you know, women training in the whole class. Often,

it would be just with other men. So we'd often meet locations around the UK trying to find other women to train with. And sometimes the highest grade you would see was a purple belt, which is about halfway up our grading system. So black belt women, like Frankie and myself, were almost unheard of at the time. So now, you know, we have, we have well over 100 black belts in the UK, and we have women of lots of experience training all over the country. So it's certainly grown a lot in the competition scene is much, much better than it used to be. And why has that happened? Why is it growing now, Frankie? I think more women are getting into fitness generally and it's more open to everybody.

And I think we've got a movement of women trying to get empowered and trying to work harder towards their own goals. And I think that's what's bringing them there a bit more. and I like the way they are going towards Jiu-Jitsu because in an era where everything you see again on TikTok, bringing it back to what you were talking about earlier, you know, in the 2000s I had to go through the anorexia sort of trend and it seems to be coming kind of back to with the Mungaro and all this all of these quick fix drugs that make you fitter.

I like to see that a lot more women are coming towards this strength side of things, whether it's weightlifting or doing martial arts, coming to jujitsu, feeling safer, more confident, able to understand what your body can do without having to just do it for your looks. Do you have to convince women, Lauren, about the sort of, I guess, the wrestling aspect and using your bodies in that sort of very physical way? Yeah, absolutely. So I think something that you notice is when men start the sport, they come in very

very aggressive thinking, you know, I'm just going to see red and I'm going to beat everyone up. And then they quickly realize they get humbled quite quickly. That's not how that works. And then you see the opposite with a lot of women unless they come from a very sporty background. They tend to be a bit tentative, a bit afraid to use their weight, a bit afraid to use their strength. They don't want to hurt people. And what's great is they learn within a few classes that you should take up space. You should use whatever strength you have. And then it leads on to them wanting to do strength training to get stronger. So it builds on itself. So you end up with women who are very physically. strong minded, strong-bodied.

So it does take people a little bit to sort of break out of the sort of social mold that we've been given, right? You have to be nice, you have to be gentle, you have to be feminine, right? But being feminine can also look like this, which is an amazing thing. And maybe there's a sense of freedom in that. As someone who used to do martial arts, yeah, tell me more. I mean, I used to do martial arts for a long time when I was a kid. I absolutely loved it and did as an adult as well. But explain, Frankie, what is that freedom that you get and that sense of community and what what how empowering is it yeah i mean in the more funny sense is when you get the men this lauren was just talking about coming in very aggressive and then

all of a sudden they get in brackets beaten up by a girl that is a lot smaller but just a lot more technical than them there's a little bit of freedom in that and yeah the the community is amazing and yes there is a bit of a trying to convince people into coming into the wrestling um aspect of things where you're really close contact and you sweat on each other a little bit. So sometimes I do say that jiu-tzee is not necessarily for everybody, but I think it's for everybody to try and then make their own decision because I didn't know I was going to get into it up until I did get on the mats

and then I said, I'm sticking to this. And now I've made it my own career even. Yeah, you're a coach at a gym where 40% of your members are now women. Yes. Age between 30 and 50? Yes. What's attracting this age group? I think, again, I think it's the culture that is becoming a bit bigger about getting more empowered than getting stronger as a woman.

We've been silenced for a long time and I think it's opening up a lot more now. And yeah. So, I mean, back to your point, Lauren, about how traditionally it's kind of very, it's a very male-dominated sport traditionally and sort of men coming quite aggressive. But, and misogyny still exists, right, in the sport. So how much does leadership, you know, who runs the gym shape women's experiences? Yeah, for sure. I mean, misogyny still exists in this sport. It exists, I think, in other sports and our careers and every aspect of our lives. So it does still exist. But I think what you can notice is that different gyms definitely have kind of different personalities and supporting women comes from the top. So when you have your head coach, either be a female or be somebody who is, you know, a strong ally for females. And you end up with gyms that are truly supportive. So you have good changing facilities. You have women teaching, not. just often we get relegated to teaching just children and other women. And now it's being seen as, you know, women obviously should be able to teach everybody, right? So now at places like Arma, you do have

many women. So we have a Fionne Davis as our head coach. She's a woman. And the men happily train with her. And then also the coaching staff, you know, you want them to support female competitors just as much as the male competitor. So at a misogynistic gym, the women may not get very much attention, even if they're the ones competing the most. They still don't get the same attention as the men. So you really want to be. want to look for gyms with strong leadership that does support women. And those are, those are out there. They're definitely out there. So I would say anybody trying it if it doesn't feel right. There are other gyms that will support women. Yeah, I think that's a really good message,

somewhere where you feel supported, safe, and where you don't have to get changed into toilets. Oh my God. Basic. You're also coaching young girls. Yes. As young as four. Yes. What's it like to train them? How does a four-year-old take to it? Oh, they are crazy. They are amazing. I do a little bit identify as one of them, basically, and that's why I get along with them a lot. I'm one of the kids.

But it's amazing to see the way they change through the sports, the way they come out of their shelves, or they become more disciplined in the opposite way as well. We had kids that would start by being in the corner crying and then slowly opened up to the class. girls and the boys are amazing in the same ways. They don't see the difference between each other. And I've seen that in teens that I used to train with when they were younger

and now they've become older, they've become older. They are also, their base level is we're equal. Then we, you know. And what kind of training, Lauren, does this, if you do put your child in and then they've trained and they become a teenager, what kind of, what does that instill in a young girl? Yeah, I think it's really an amazing sport for young girls because we're often told as little girls not to fight each other, not to, you know, and some of it is nature, of course, but I think, you know, if you are the sort of girl that wants to be a bit aggressive, you're called a tomboy, you're a bit sort of, oh, you're not like a normal girl. Whereas a sport like this, it instills an ability to be strong, but also, you know, competing as a child and winning is great, but also I think losing is one of the most important things because it teaches us that our value is not. in our accomplishments, our value in, is in how hard did we prepare for this? How, you know, how seriously did we take it?

How resilient are we? Do we come back after a loss? I think things like that are much, much more valuable than, you know, just trying to be, you know, earlier in the program, they're just trying to be skinny, right? That should never be the goal of any young girl's life. So I think training in jujitsu, you don't focus on your looks, you focus on what you can do. And I think those are really important lessons. There you go.

And if anyone fancies it, just step into the gym this weekend. Yeah, everybody has got features. No defects. All your body characteristics are features towards what you can do within the sport. None of it is to be judged on. What a beautiful way to bring the programme full circle. Nice point to end it on. Lauren Brown and Frankie Renda, thank you so much.

I'm going to read a couple more of your messages about missing out on things. In 1989, I visited a friend who was a driving instructor in Toralona, and British Virgin Islands. We dived every day except for the day he didn't fancy. driving over to Necker Island to pick up two mystery guests. His colleague went instead and picked up Richard Dreyfus and Harrison Ford. I could have gone diving with them. And Brooke says, my mum missed the biggest event of the 80s.

She was offered a ticket to live aid, what we now consider to be one of the most amazing musical charitable events to have ever happened. My mum decided that Portaloo were not for her. You've just made me feel much better about my own FOMO. Join me tomorrow for more Women's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi there, I'm Dillie Carter,

and this is everything you need to know about my new podcast. Sort your life out, unpacked. I interview a different celebrity every episode. They bring me in three items from their home that reveal the most about them, and we unpack the stories behind those items. And I give you a few tips and tricks along the way. Some of the guests that I'm going to be interviewing

are TV presenters like Lorraine Kelly, reality stars like Kerry Catona, podcast royalty like Elizabeth Day, and of course, our very own Stacey Solomon. Oh, and let's not forget some incredibly funny comedians like Phil Wang and Eddie Caddy. I think, as with everything to sort your life out based, you are going to get so much motivation, inspiration and ideas for your own home. Sort Your Life Out unpacked presented by me, Diddy Carter. You can watch us on EyePlayer and listen on BBC Sounds.