Woman's Hour - AI images and children, Emergency contraception, Charlotte Edwardes

Episode Date: July 6, 2026

Parents are being warned about the risks of posting images of their children online due to an increase in AI-generated child abuse imagery. The Internet Watch Foundation found 3,440 AI-generated videos of child sexual abuse in 2025, compared with just 13 in 2024. The National Crime Agency says it is increasingly seeing offenders exploit AI technologies to target children in new ways. What's behind this rise, and what advice is there for parents? Nuala McGovern is joined by Emma Hardy, Director of Communications at the Internet Watch Foundation and Dr Elaine Kasket, cyberpsychologist and the author of Reset: Rethinking your Digital World for a Happier Life.Should emergency contraception – sometimes referred to as the morning after pill – be available to buy next to the condoms on the supermarket shelf? President of the College of Sexual and Reproductive Health Dr Zara Haider thinks so and joins Nuala to discuss.Schools have already broken up for summer in Scotland and schools in England and Wales will begin their holidays later this month. The Great British Summer Savings scheme is, a UK government initiative that recently came into effect with the aim of helping families enjoy the weekend treats, the days out, the small plans that make life enjoyable during the cost of living squeeze. To explain more about what is being made available and the difference this could make to families, Nuala hears from marketing expert and CEO of Get Savvy, Catherine Shuttleworth.At least 11 people have been killed in Kyiv following a second night of Russian strikes on the Ukrainian capital in a week, the city's top military administrator has said. For more than four years Ukrainians have been enduring Russian attacks on their cities.  Ukraine is now also carrying out its own drone strikes on targets deep inside Russia.  With no end to the war in sight people in Ukraine have found different ways to cope.  Some women turn to beauty and fashion as a way of dealing with the trauma of war, and as a sign of defiance. Isabella Jewell reports from Kyiv.Trouble Was is the debut novel by the journalist Charlotte Edwardes. It’s the story of a mother who takes her children to live with relatives in Devon in the long hot summer of 1976 – and the unravelling of family secrets, all told from the perspective of nine-year-old Frank. Charlotte joins Nuala to talk about the baby blues, breakdowns and the realities of ‘70s life that she has fictionalised.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Dianne McGregor

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He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballandour Award, He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right. Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo.

That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Hello, this is Newell McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Good to have you. you with us today. A question for you, do you post photos of your children online? Do you ever have concerns about how those images might be used? Maybe you've debated whether it's right to share those pictures.

Well, the National Crime Agency has issued new guidance about images of children online. They want parents to know that photos can be manipulated into AI-generated sexual abuse material. And they also want to start a conversation about whether we should be sharing imagery online as a default. We're going to hear what they're recommending. And I'd also like to hear your thoughts and your experiences when it comes to sharing photos or videos of your children. Are they involved in the decisions? It is an ever-evolving debate as technology advances.

Now, to get in touch, you can text the program, that number 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or voice note, the number is 0-3-700-100-44-4-4. Also today, Charlotte Edwards has written a beautiful and heartbreaking book. Trouble Was, is the name of it. It's about a family in Devon in the heat wave of 1976. Charlotte will be with me in studio a little later.

Also, we'll go to a beauty salon in Ukraine to hear how some women are using beauty rituals as a way to keep calm and carry on during such a difficult time. Also, should emergency contraception be sold in corner shops, supermarkets and petrol stations? We'll discuss that. And we'll also talk about how families can make the most of the school holidays without spending a fortune. That is all coming up. But let me begin with a warning to parents about the risk of posting images of their children online

due to an increase of AI-generated abuse imagery. The Internet Watch Foundation found that 3,440 AI-generated videos of child sexual abuse in 2025 compared to just 13 in 2024. The National Crime Agency says it is increasingly seeing offenders exploiting AI technologies to target children in new ways. So let's hear a little more about what's behind the rise. And also what advice is there for parents who might post photos of their children online? We have a couple of people joining us. Emma Hardy, good morning, Director of Communications at the Internet Watch Foundation.

And Dr. Elaine Caskett, a cyber psychologist, and the author of Reset, Rethinking Your Digital World, for a happier life. Emma, let me begin with you. How do you understand this increase of AI generated images and videos online? Good morning. So I work at the Internet Watch Foundation and we are the front line of tackling child sexual abuse images and videos. Whilst we're based in the UK, we work globally doing this work and we've been doing it for 30 years. And we've always found ourselves because of the privileges we have to be able to do this quite sensitive, work, we're the first to identify new trends and not in the good sense either. So when it comes to AI a couple of years ago, maybe three years ago, we produced our first AI report looking at how many

AI generated child sexual abuse images and videos we could find online just to start having the conversation. And oh my goodness, as we all know, the technology has come on leaps and bounds in lots of good ways. But, and as we know, very, very well from the Internet Watch Foundation, very often it's the offenders and those who want to use new technologies for nefarious reasons that also capitalize on it. So we are seeing huge amounts of AI generated child sexual abuse images and videos. And we're seeing this progress very, very quickly. You were talking about the videos just then. Video technology has come along so, so fast. Any of us can produce. a few seconds of a clip that looks really good quality.

My husband did it with our dog, a little 5-20-second type clip. That can now be done in the comfort of people's homes, using their technology that's downloadable on our phones. And so we're also unfortunately seeing how this technology is being abused to create images and videos of children. I was just wondering also reading about it, Emma. I mean, can AI videos be made from photographs? Yes.

AI videos of child sexual abuse of anything can be made from photographs. There are apps out there now where you just give it two different pictures and it will suddenly bring to life the people in the photos and it will show them kissing. I mean, that can be quite a funny thing. Maybe it's an old picture of your nan and granddad from a long time of going. You can almost seem animated. but also the same can be true with children and where there aren't safeguards in place on these tools,

you can use a legitimate picture of a child and you can make it into something which would be classed as child sexual abuse and you can also generate from scratch child sexual abuse images and videos using AI. And I think the important thing for everybody to know is that this, This is all illegal.

Just because AI has been used in the mix somewhere doesn't make it okay. This type of content is criminal and we're seeing more and more of it. I mentioned some of the figures at the top, which is a huge leap in the amount that has been generated. But with this particular campaign, along with the NCA, the National Crime Agency, what are you asking parents or caregivers to do when it comes to children's images or what not to do? because I suppose the big question is like, is it safe to post pictures of my kid online? And I think it's incredibly brave and bold of the National Crime Agency to be entering into this discussion actually. But I think we're at a point where it's needed.

What we want parents to do is be informed. We want parents to understand what the risks are and to really question whether they should be putting images or videos of their children online and who can see it. Who can see it and then what could happen with it. I think most parents probably won't realize that a picture of their child at school in their school uniform could be taken by somebody, could be run through a very simple AI model, which is, could be found and downloaded, and it could nudify that child, which means it could remove the clothing. How would you feel as the parent if you thought that could happen? How would that

child feel in that moment as well? And then if we can take it one step further, we are seeing cases where parents and schools as well are being contacted by people who have mutified images, innocent images of children, and then they're demanding money. And they're saying, if you don't pay up, I will put this online. And we have spoken about that previously on women's error. But from what you're saying, Emma, I would deduce that you're saying, do not post photographs of your children online. I would say, and this is how I've taken the advice as someone who's always been quite informed about this area, I am now, and I have been for quite some time not posting pictures of children online.

As early as 2012, we did a study and we could see, we looked at the number of sexting images when sexting was first the term that had been posted online of children. And we found many, many hundreds that had been what we called harvested from the original place they'd been uploaded and moved elsewhere for other reasons. AI is just an extension of that and that can take an innocent picture and harvest it, decloat it, and then put it elsewhere or use it for other reasons. So as a parent, I am personally not posting pictures.

And I think if you understand what the risks are and you have the conversations in your family home, that's the best thing for you. 8444.844 if you'd like to get in touch and let me know your thoughts, because I'm sure many want to share photographs with loved ones, hope that the settings that they have are safe. Elaine, let me bring you in. You're a cyber psychologist, as I mentioned. You and your daughter appeared on Woman's Hour a couple of years ago talking about your decision not to share photos of her online. I'd be curious for what you've heard so far this morning. Well, I'm in furious agreements with Emma. It was in 2019 that I opened up a conversation with my daughter about how she felt about the sharenting that I had done. I live many thousands of miles away from my family of origin, had done. since she was born. And in the earlier days of social media in common with a lot of parents,

it was a highly normalized, reinforced kind of practice to do. It was invited by the platforms themselves. And it was, forgive me, it's just a word that you use there, just in case anybody isn't familiar with it. Sharon Ting. Yes, sharenting is the portmanteau word that refers to sharing the images of one's own children online, but it could also refer to any adult sharing images of children online. And of course, there's also grand sharenting to recognize the fact that other relatives do it too and are often very attached to the practice. And I think that we ourselves went through a bit of a naive and childlike and playful relationship with social media back in the day where we had no idea and really no way of knowing

that we could get to where we currently are today. So we're in the awkward position of having done things in the past or developed habits that continue to this day that we're now having to radically rethink in light of how things have evolved. And so for me, that reckoning came on more of a personal, interpersonal basis where my daughter didn't like the feeling that I had more agency over what happened with her images than she did. And she let me know that she wanted me to take the past images down and not post about her again. And from that point forward in 2019, that's exactly what happened. That's what I did.

How difficult was that? Because I'm thinking you were maybe, forgive me, but an oversharer in the sense of how are you going to get all those photographs back down? I don't know that I would have necessarily classified as myself as an overshare. It was probably fairly typical in line with a lot of parents who are not kind of like professional like mummy bloggers and things like that. It was an absolute labor of love because I found that it was extremely difficult and sticky to do this.

And when I was removing photos, other ones kept on popping up that was absolutely sure that I had erased. And so the mechanics of the platform made it very, very hard. It was hours and hours of work. I think it took me about a day and a half of dedicated work to ensure that everything that I had ever posted of her on Facebook or Instagram was taken down. So it wasn't an easy job. I was definitely disincentivized.

And it was also difficult, I think, emotionally, because that had been the established route by which I'd shared news of my family, which included, of course, my daughter with far away friends and family, of which I had many. And so I had to deal with my own feelings, I suppose, of guilt and regret that my daughter had had objections that she hadn't necessarily known how to voice,

that I had to open up the conversation or for her two voice. And I had to reckon with my own attachment to this habit of this way of doing this. But I was able to find fairly quickly that, of course, as there always had been before, there were other roots that I could do this. And there was also other ways to scratch that completely understandable parental kind of urge or itch to reach out and to connect and to connect with other families or friends.

That's normal. And of course, you know, I wanted to do that. But I had to find other ways of responding to that emotional need. And that took some work. Yeah. And I'm also thinking, you know, at family gatherings, etc., you know, this idea of who consents to that photograph being shared online is another conversation that can be tricky. You know, I've got a question in, and I might throw this back to you, Emma. What does posting online mean?

Does it include private groups on Facebook? Does it include sending images on WhatsApp or Snapchat between friends and family? I think that you share in a digital capacity has to be thought of as posting online, mainly because, and we see this a lot with young people and we do campaigns aimed at helping young people think before they share. For them, some of the times the sharing is via messaging platforms, for example. And it's because you don't know what somebody else might do with that image. So some of the guidance in the resource that's been launched by the National Crime Agency in IWF talks about having conversations and normalising those conversations with your friendship groups

or whoever it is that you do want to share with. And it suggests almost like shrinking down the number of people that you are sharing with at once and having that trust. But I think an important part of that is having that conversation and normalising that so that others that you are sharing images with, whether it's within a private Facebook group, or whether it's in some kind of end-to-end encrypted messaging service like WhatsApp, for example, that you know you're sharing with people that you trust. But I think the other side of that coin, as Elaine's been explaining,

is having that conversation with your children, actually trying to bring them into this to normalise a conversation about what we put online, what's okay to put online, what maybe the risks are in age-appropriate language, so that you know what they think about your practices as well. It can't go wrong if you talk about it. these things and normalise them. And that's been our advice consistently for years now. I was a, sorry.

May I put a question that just came in, Elaine, to you. I'd be curious for your thoughts on this. Somebody says they didn't post pictures of their children online. The school last week asked permission to use pictures of our children in the prospectus, schools and other children's activities, constantly asked to use pictures of our kids. Any company which needs to advertise to parents, schools, etc., have pictures of kids everywhere all over their websites.

And when you say no, other parents often get upset that no pictures can be taken off the school play, for example, because of you. This also needs to be discussed. You know, one of the hardest things I think we have in life or that we do in life is boundary communication. I think that goes for lots of situations and the situation included. And then sometimes when there's a big group or an authority like the school or a bunch of parents, that boundary communication can feel much harder if you feel like a lone voice. can be hard with loved ones as well who have a different opinion or who just don't understand or who think you're overreacting.

And so, but this is a, this is a situation where we all need to get accustomed to good, healthy boundary communication, where we are very clear about our big why in terms of why this matters to us or why this is important to us, where we communicate a very clear boundary or a very clear ask and then be prepared to really reinforce that and stand by that and and not model something different in our own behavior and be prepared to take steps to protect ourselves further if the other party doesn't respect those boundaries. It's such, such hard work.

But I think the kinds of information that Emma's been sharing today is just so important. Digital data is infinitely replicable and scalable and manipulatable. And so... Let me go back to because we have a limited time. We've a lot to get through and lots of messages coming in as well. Let me pop back to you, Emma. Here's a question. My daughter posts pictures of her children online with stickers obscuring their faces. Does that protect their images?

Oof, no, it doesn't protect their images well enough. I remember a few years ago we were having this discussion at the Internet Watch Foundation. And one of my colleagues who works in the software development team just went, oh, it takes seconds to remove those stickers. So stickers don't do it. Stickers can be removed. Stickers won't preserve their modesty in the way they're that you might think. And obviously, I think as Elaine is described as well, you know, that people want to share images and they have that urge and it's all, I suppose, for bonding and emotional connection

with perhaps relatives of family far away. But why is the advice to stop sharing photographs instead of stopping the criminals that are perpetrating the abuse? That's a very good question. I mean, the criminals have to be stopped to perpetrating the abuse. I think, and from what I see through our work, there are hundreds of thousands, millions of child sexual abuse images

that we find every single year on the internet. There are forums filled with people who operate on the dark web that find like-minded individuals that share tactics about how to groom, how to coerce, how to share images, how to create images. What I'm trying to say is the problem is enormous, and therefore it needs tackling in lots of places. It needs tackling across the internet infrastructure to close down the weaknesses that there are.

We as individuals and parents need to be better informed about what is going on so that we can take those decisions and take them with our children where they're old enough as well. And there needs to be stronger regulation. It needs to be it. What we don't want is we don't want to see a world where mutification apps can be created, can be shared, and they operate predominantly on women and girls' bodies to remove the clothes of women and children and boys as well.

So there needs to be a lot of effort here, but I think we have to be informed as parents. So let me leave it there. Really interesting. Thank you for your insight. Emma Hardy, Director of Communications at the Internet Watch Foundation. And also Dr. Lane Cascott, a cyber psychologist and author of Reset, rethinking your digital world for happier life. 84844, if you'd like to, continue sending me some of your comments. Thanks for those that have come in already. I will read them throughout the program. Now, should emergency contraception,

sometimes still referred to as the morning after pill, be available to buy next to the condoms on the supermarket shelf, for example. Well, the president of the College of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare, Dr Zara Hayder, thinks so and joins me now in studio. Good morning. Good morning. So why are you arguing for this greater availability? And maybe describe a little bit about where you see,

emergency contraception being available to buy. Yeah, thank you. So the current situation is emergency contraception is available free of charge from pharmacies. And that's been the case since October 2025. The problem there is that you're restricted by pharmacy opening hours, by the location of the pharmacy. There's people that would see having to have a consultation with the pharmacist being a barrier. So there are reasons why perhaps people wouldn't want to go to a pharmacist to get their emergency contraception. The other place it's available free of charge is from your GP or from a sexual health clinic.

But for your sexual health clinic and GP, that might involve having an appointment. And that could involve a delay in getting your medication. And we know that there's timely access to emergency contraception is really important. The closer you take it to when you've had unprotected sex, the more likely it's going to work. And you have 72 hours? Depending on which method you use. So with one brand, there's 72 hours, with another brand, it's 120 hours.

However, the point of emergency contraceptive pills is trying to delay ovulation long enough so that the sperm die. We know sperm take five days to die. So what if you've had unprotected sex and you're ovulating the next day? So that's why it can be so timely and timely access is so important. What happens if you have unprotected sex on a Saturday evening? Your pharmacist is shut on a Sunday or it's after 10 o'clock and you really want to access your emergency contraception as quickly as possible.

So therefore having it available at retail outlets, your petrol station, for example, would make it much easier to access. Is there any evidence that women can't access emergency contraception that they want at the moment? So we did a survey or we asked you Gov to do a survey. So it's over 2,000 women. And what we found was that 75% of them, so those aged between 18 and 34, said that accessing it from a retail outlet would be really handy. So we know that the current figures for, so we know that a third of conceptions

end in abortion currently. That's from the 2020 figures. So going some way to reduce the unintended pregnancy risk would be really helpful too. So that is the data, as you mentioned there.

Just in from 2023 to reiterate almost one in three conceptions ending in abortion. It is the highest rate since records began. So you are thinking, that is informing your thinking? That could be helpful to it, yeah. So to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and that's the 13% rise since 2022. So it's very significant. Safety. The pharmacist,

for example, in a conversation that you would have if you went to a pharmacy to get emergency contraception, they will ask you when you had unprotected sex or contraception failure, your age, if there's a chance you're pregnant or breastfeeding, the date of your last period, how long your cycles are, basically making an informed decision to give you that particular drug. Are you confident they can be dealt with in an information leaflet instead, which might be all you would get in the supermarket? So we're not saying that we should, that emergency contraception shouldn't be available from pharmacies. We're just saying this is an added way of getting emergency contraception on top of the ways that you have already. We would very happily work with

the regulator, because obviously it's not our decision, but we would happily work with the regulator on the kind of information that women receive to help inform their choice on what they're doing. So whether that's scanning a QR code and getting information digitally or having it in some sort of paper form that we know that people prefer digital information nowadays, but making that in a readable, understandable way, helping to educate people about their choices. Because it may be, for example, the pharmacist, if they're concerned about safeguarding for any reason. They can ask the woman if they're being coerced to taking the medication. Are you worried about that not happening or being misused if there's not a human opposite that woman as she looks

for emergency contraception? So what we would hope is that the digital information would also help to signpost women if they are having problems. So victims of domestic abuse, victims of sexual assault, signposting them to their nearest services, signposting them to get STI testing, signposting them about an ongoing contraceptive method. So obviously this shouldn't be used as an alternative to contraception. And sometimes women are using contraception and things go wrong. So a split condom or a mispill. So, you know, it's, but it's really important that they can access it in a timely way.

And the public are telling us that they agree. Yeah. And you think it is okay for a human not to be involved in the interaction? I think so. I think so. as long as we can get the information to women that they need to help inform them about all those other things as well. As you mentioned, it is free at the pharmacy counter at the moment since the end of last year. What do you think would be a reasonable amount to charge for it in outlets like the petrol station or the quarter shop or whatever it may be?

Well, of course I'd love to say it should be available for free, but let's be realistic. I mean, that would be completely up to the regulator. So currently looking at what's charged online for emergency contraception, it's somewhere within sort of 20, 30 pounds. But that obviously would be completely up to the regulator. And for it to happen, as you mentioned, that you don't get to implement any of these changes, what would need to happen for this to take place? So I think it's really important that the regulator knows about the public feeling. So, you know, we see it as our role to help the regulator hopefully make the decision.

But, yeah, knowing that over 2,000 people have said, you know, or 75% of 2,000 people have said, actually, we really think that this would be a very useful thing for people to have access to. Do you think that would be enough or do they need wider polling? They would probably want to do wider polling. But it's a start, isn't it? It shows that there is public opinion about this. And then there would need to be legislation to make it happen? And that's obviously not our role, but we would just hope to be able to guide the regulator

to show that there is public opinion about this. And we have backing from the Royal College of GPs, Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the abortion sector as well. So quite far reaching across the health sector, we have backing Brooke as well, backing us to. So, yeah. And the regulator is the MHRA? Yeah. Yes, in this particular case.

Let's see how your proposal goes forward in the sense of whether it gathers steam or whether this political will as well. Dr. Zara Hayder, thank you very much for coming in to join us on Women's Hour. And please do ask at your local pharmacy or GP if you need emergency contraception. Thanks for all your messages that are coming in. Continues on posting images online. Posting any images online is the equivalent of walking down the high street and handing out copies of your pictures to every stranger you meet. You wouldn't do that, so why would you do the same online?

Here's another. There's one simple solution. Just buy a normal, small, non-internet, digital camera and take your photos on that. Like in the old days, you can then print out the photos to show your friends or just show them the photo on your phone, if you like. What do you think? 8444.

If you'd like to respond to any of the comments that are coming in online. Now, on Friday, Woman's Hour came from the Crossed Wire's Podcast Festival in Sheffield. Thanks to all of you that came along. Anita and I had a full house, which was terrific. And thanks also to those of you that I got to meet afterwards. It's always such a treat to meet listeners in person. Now on the program on Friday, we discussed misogyny in celebrity court cases and the wider impact they can have on women. We also had the poet, Helen Mort, explaining and exploring stepmothers in our culture. We spoke to the author Lisa Lloyd, who is known for writing about life with her two autistic children on social media.

Recently, she was diagnosed with autism herself in her 40s. She shared how her own diagnosis helped her parent her children. That whole change from going from not a parent to a parent is huge anyway. But that transition when you're autistic is even bigger. And I didn't get all the things that you're naturally told. I didn't bond with my baby straight away. I went into severe depression. It was probably the worst time of my life looking back now.

And, you know, this little stranger that was suddenly here, he'd messed up all my routines, all the things that made me feel safe. I felt like I'd lost myself. I didn't know who I was anymore. And I actually grieved for, like, my old life. I missed that old life, that freedom I had and, you know, and how simple things were. And I think I didn't really.

I was also raising an autistic child at the same time, so he had his own needs as well. It's really helped me to understand the kids more and their needs, their meltdowns, and often me and my husband would sort of butt heads quite a lot because he wouldn't understand why our child is getting really upset about something, whereas I would get it, I would understand completely because I would be feeling it too.

I even blamed the kids for me wanting to leave places. I'd say, oh, you know, my son's about to have a meltdown and they're all looking at him like, he looks fine. I'm like, no, no, no, he needs to go, definitely. Lisa Lloyd there, you can hear more from Lisa and the rest of the program, which was a cracker by going to BBC Sounds and listening to the episode from Friday the 3rd of July. I mentioned how much I loved meeting the listeners

after our programmes on Friday. Well, another aspect of our listeners. Listener week is back with us next month. So we want to know about the conversations taking place in your group chats right now. Maybe the topic that keeps on coming up when you go for coffee. Or maybe there's a question

that your friends just can't agree on, something you're wondering about, and would love an expert to answer that debate once and for all. It could be also perhaps you'd like us to talk about something that's a transitional point in your life or maybe something you've noticed around you,

a question that you've had in your head for ages that you'd like to have answered. You know, some of our most interesting conversations here on Women's Hour to start with a simple question. So whatever is on your mind, we would love to hear it. You get the microphone and put your questions at the heart of this programme. The usual ways to get in touch. Text 84844 on social media,

which is at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through the Woman's Hour website. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr. Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000.

So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. The school holidays, they've already started for schools in Scotland. No doubt the children there are delighted. But for many mothers, this can be a challenging time of juggling finances, time of work, childcare. There is the Great British Summer Savings Scheme.

This is a UK-wide government initiative that temporarily reduces VAT on children's meals in restaurants, also kids tickets to cinema or theatre and also on the entry tickets to a wide range of attractions. So to explain more about what is being made available and to also give some of her own top tips, I had the marketing expert and CEO of Get Savvy, Catherine Shuttleworth.

So I thought it was very interesting when Rachel Rees was giving this advice about reducing VAT because ultimately, mums are the ones who really know how far money goes and they are the chancellors of every half, household in Britain. And I think they're smarter at finding the best deals on days out, things to do, what to do with kids in the summer than any politician could ever be.

And perhaps we should ask more mums about how they stretch summer and what does that look like for them? Because for a lot of us, working parents and carers, it's tough because you've also got to balance going to work in the summer as well and find that childcare. And the childcare is the real killer about availability and the cost of it is so expensive. What are some of the financial challenges that families face once we come into the school summer holidays? Well, the summer holidays is a nightmare for families, isn't it? In terms of six weeks ahead of you and loads of things to pay for, not just days out, but, you know, feeding your kids three times a day. And we know that 87% of families are looking to save money in the summer and 80% of families are really worried

about how they're going to get through. So, you know, you've got to pay for child care if you're working on those days. You're not working. You're trying to look for something to do. And it's just everything about the summer is really expensive for every family across the UK. So there is the Great British Summer Savings Scheme.

This is introduced by the government, just come into effect. How would you describe it to people that are not familiar with it? Well, the scheme is a reduction of VAT with things to do with children, to do with days out, eating it. now and it's a reducing VAT from 20% to 5%. It's a temporary measure that the government have put in.

And that's how it works. In terms of what does it do, well, it's supposed to help families save money, but really it's not a lot of saving. So to give you an idea, because I think sometimes percentage is a sound great, don't it at a headline level. But if you're going to spend $4.99 on a kid's meal

on a day out, you go to the zoo, it would save you 38 pence. So that's the kind of reduction we're looking at. So these are temporary reductions to try and get British families out and about into places to go for the day and hospitality venues. I mean, some of them that I was looking at, they might be theme parks, for example, or the zoo that you mentioned there.

But they're a pretty hefty price ticket to begin with. We can be talking 20, 25 pounds, for example. Oh, easily. I mean, yeah. I mean, if you're a family of four and you want to go even to the cinema, you can be talking over £100 for a day out. It's really, really expensive for days out. So the idea of trying to give savings is a good one. But the reality is the best savings on days out have not been provided by the government.

They've been provided if you go online by brands. So there are lots of big brands, food brands in the UK that if you buy their products, you can get three days out. If you shop with the big supermarkets, you can save your points up and trade the business. in for days out. Loads of families do that because it's a great way of saving. And also locally, if you look on your local websites where you live, look on your council websites, you'll find loads of discounted days out. So these things are already happening to try and help families stretch the cost of summer. It is part, that particular scheme by the government, part of their campaign to help with the cost of living. It's a wider initiative.

What else can parents avail off with that particular? initiative. Well, they can look at travel as well. So travel's been reduced for children in, so if you go on the bus somewhere, the travel should be free. But already there are a lot of schemes across the country. People might be listening to live in the West country. There's already free travel for under 16s. And if you live in Scotland, travels free for under 22 year olds. So it is worth having a look around. But what I would say to any family who are facing into the summer, I've done this, done this myself with three kids, is you need to. You need to, you need to, to really plan what you're going to do

and find free things to do, because there are free things to do as well. Not every day needs to be a theme park day. You can do things in your local park. Your local council may have free days on. Museums quite often are free in art galleries and find things to do that are a bit more creative and interesting that are local to you

where you're not going to spend a load on petrol or transport and you can take your own picnic so you're not having to buy an expensive lunch to go with it. That's really interesting as well, definitely the eating out can all add up. So if you were to give, I don't know, your favourite, your kids, I don't know what age they are now, but a favourite top tip or place to go to bring the kids that is not as expensive or something to do over the summer, what would you say?

Well, yeah, my kids are a bit older now, but we were talking about this this week because I live in Yorkshire, very lucky to live in Yorkshire and I went to the David Hockney Museum at the weekend, which is free. The art gallery is free and then I went to the park. And the kids said, you used to always take us there. And of course, the reason we used to take them there is because it costs nothing. So, you know, my top tips are there's loads of stuff online, places to go to and try and think about the things that the kids might want to do where there's plenty of fresh air, places for them to run that are safe. And, you know, if you're lucky enough to be able to do that, not everybody is.

If you live in the middle of a city, that can be more challenging. Find that way to do it. shop smart, so buy products that have got deals and offers on them. And if you can avail yourself of a discount, maybe a blue light discount, if you work in the NHS, use those. Shop around and do things and enjoy time with your kids. I say this as somebody who's now got three children going off to university. That was Catherine Shuttleworth there, marketing expert and CEO of Get Savvy. All of this week you might have seen at some of the newspapers are carrying a free National Trust family pass.

out voucher covering admission for two adults up to three children or one adult and up to four children to explore a National Trust site in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Also a comment came in, let me see this is Rebecca. She says, makes me sad that the narrative around the summer holidays is that it's

a nightmare and terrible to be entertaining our children ourselves. It's a challenging balance but it happens every year. Let's start seeing it as an opportunity for ourselves and our children to have some different experiences and thrive together. Well, Catherine did say, you know, enjoy it because she says hers are now grown so she doesn't get to do it with them any longer.

8444-844 if you'd like to get in touch. At least 11 people have been killed in Kiev following a second night of Russian strikes on the Ukrainian capital in a week. That is according to the city's top military administrator. It is now more than four years that Ukrainians have been enduring Russian attacks on their cities. Sometimes there are 100 of drone strikes launched in a day. Ukraine is now also carrying out its own drone strikes on targets deep inside Russia. With no end to the war inside, people in Ukraine find different ways to cope. Some women have turned to beauty and fashion as a way of dealing with the trauma of the war

and a sign of defiance. Isabel Jule reports from Kiev. Sometimes I think that maybe this night will be the last one. and I want to feel comfortable. And if something will happen, I would like to look beautiful. Irina is a young woman living in Kiev. Just a few days before we met, Russia staged one of its largest overnight strikes on her city, killing at least 22 people.

The sound of missiles hitting buildings and drones buzzing in the sky kept most people awake, shaking even the shelters underground. But I've met Irina in a place that feels like another reality. We're in a glitzy Ukrainian shopping mall in search of pajamas. As we look through the different options, Irina tells me that what she wears is an important part of how she mentally prepares for Russian bombing, which often happens overnight. When we are expecting mass attacks, I take shower to use all my the most expensive skincare products. use perfumes and wear pyjamas because, you know, I want to look the best. It may sound weird, but for me it's a part in my life when I can take under control at least something.

So I want to send a message to Russia that despite everything they are doing to us, they can destroy our buildings, separate our families, but we still keep going. Beauty and appearance may seem like a minor concern while a war's going on, but they have often played an important role. Lisa Eldridge is a beauty expert and historian. You know, hard times, recessions, wars. There is this kind of craving for this sense of normalcy, this act of defiance whereby whatever is happening,

beauty, hair, nails, whatever it is, it's a real source of joy. You know, there is that thing called the lip, and it restarted in World War II when just as a sense of preserving femininity and this idea of, you know, life must go on and continue. In Ukraine, it seems that many people are relying on this as a morale booster. Last year, market analyst Euro-monitor found that there was a 14% growth in retail value of beauty and personal care. The same goes for fashion.

According to government data, new clothes shops keep opening in Ukraine, despite the total war. After a Russian strike last year, the windows of Dorena's beauty salon in Kyiv were badly damaged. She told me what happened the next morning. Despite none of the employees sleeping all night, we didn't cancel a single appointment. The doors barely opened. Because of that, some clients entered through the window. The salon is packed with a steady stream of clients coming for makeup, haircuts and skincare treatments.

The windows are long replaced, but the prospect of another Russian attack hangs in the air. One of the clients tells me why she keeps coming. When we maintain our appearance, for a moment we forget what is happening in the country. It brings some joy. You feel a kind of dependence on feeling beautiful, despite ever since collapsing due to the strikes. Inside the salon, though, there are regular reminders of the war going on. While we were there, an air alert sounded on the government app, warning of a ballistic missile coming from Russia. But nobody stopped what they were doing.

One of the hairstylists, Anna, told me why. If we see that there's an air raid alert, as painful as it might sound, we've gotten used to the situation and we simply carry on working. We don't pay attention even if there are explosions. We just don't hear them because we have the hairdriers running and music playing gently in the background and we don't focus on it. There's no shortage of salons across Kiev,

many of which function behind boarded up windows or even in basements. Beauty historian Lisa Eldridge tells me they play a crucial role in wartime Ukraine. It's such a social thing to do. as well, to go and sit in a salon and get your nails done, there's conversation, there's sharing of stories, there's bonding, there's this sense of being part of a community. Self-care can provide calm in the chaos for Ukrainian women, but the threats of war are constant. Dignified and defiance, Ukrainians like makeup stylist or Lena, are carrying on with their lives the best they can in their country's fifth year at war.

Whether you want it or not, it's like a roulette. Tomorrow, it could happen to your home. But you know, if you thought about it every day and every minute, you would lose your marbles. If we stop taking care of ourselves, we will just sit in basements and life will end, basically. That was Isabella Jewel, reporting from Kiev. Thank you for your messages coming in.

Here's one. I think rather than blaming parents for not consenting to schools, sharing pictures of children online, I would ask, why are the school still asking for consent to share pictures of children, knowing what we know in 2026? 844, if you'd like to get in touch. Let me turn next to the journalist, Charlotte Edwards. She has twice been named interviewer of the year at the British Press Awards.

She's a former war reporter who's written for the Times, The Telegraph, and now The Guardian. She's also known as for her wit as a diarist, so many skills. Now she's turned her hand to fiction with Trouble Was, her debut novel. It's the story of a mother who takes her children to live with relatives in Devon in that long hot summer of 1976 and how, as they all live in the same house, family secrets begin to unravel.

And it's told through the perspective of a nine-year-old boy, Frank, and Charlotte joins me now. Good to have you with us. Good to be here. So lots of memories of 1970s that were unlocked, I have to say, as I read your novel, everybody's smoking, a lack of seatbelts,

canned mushroom soup, A baby on the hip, host pipe bands. But there's also the stigma of absent dads, a mother struggling with what was called then, the baby blues. You've talked about wanting to write what you've described as the voids of the 1970s. Tell me more. Yes. So I remember I interviewed when I was on the evening stand at Will Self.

And he talked about, in the course of our conversation, he talked about these voids in the 19th. 70s and I suddenly, it just sort of opened something in my mind where I thought, yes, there were all these things that happened that were completely, well sort of normal life sort of polished over these voids that were going on, especially to children. So I wanted to sort of write into those voids and write about what was going on for children in that decade. Which is just fascinating to read it from Frank, the nine-year-old's perspective. We'll give a brief outline of the story, no spoilers, although I have to say I read it yesterday, it's beautifully written and so beautifully observed. You've two mothers, dads away, raising children alone in this big old house. Yeah, and they're coping very differently with the way that they're bringing up these three children with absent dads.

So one mother who's an artist is struggling and her emotions are out. you know, she's crying and she gets very angry with her children without any spoilers. And then the other mother is repressed and shut up and, you know, she's sort of brittle and slightly more indulgent possibly of her children. But yes, they're both coping in their own ways. With this huge lack that is there at the same time and the poor children really having to suffer through it. Why the title? Good question. So first of all, I had tried to write, I'd been writing other things and I kept thinking when I had characters who were older, what happened to this person when they were younger? And it's a sort of unconscious this book of the other things that I was writing. It was sort of looking back at what might have been a sort of snapshot of the childhood of things that I wanted to, some other things that I wanted to write about. And then I found myself going into,

to this sort of void and even the landscape is shaped like a void, the landscape of the book and going in there and seeing what happened. And as, you know, adult behaviours, repeat. So it was this snapshot, but you know that things that are happening in this world will probably repeat and have ramifications.

I could see somebody looking back and telling the story of their childhood and go, well, the trouble was, that blah, blah, blah, as the title is. You're going to read a little bit for us. is actually where the book begins, brings us right into it. Thanks, Charlotte. Go ahead there. Here we are, mum said, widening her eyes when we reached the edge of Exmoor, the perilous crossing. She was pretending it was our adventure through the underworld. We'd already been

hours in the car, the four of us, and Reggie the dog. Paralless, I whispered. It sounded bad like querulous, her word to describe Odette. We were insulated inside the citron. So close, it made my job of looking after us easier. It smelled of her Rothmans, her alliege scent, our cagulls, and the greasy fur of Reggie, sentry at a rear window, nose-snuffling the gap where the glass didn't meet the frame. Odette and Patrick lay collapsed in sleep on the back seat, above them, blocking the rear view, bags of clothes. The citroent was our only home now. It was cozier than the one we'd just left, despite the ticking that sounded in the engine. Sometimes mum would hear an imperceptible change

That would cause her to whip her head round To listen fully with her left ear Did you hear that she'd say Then shush me to strain more intently I glanced at her She was frowning at the road Our headlights probe thin strips of mist The engine ticked

The radio glowed yellow behind its ruler of numbers I sat on my hands Drumming my feet on the case Mum had wedged into the footwall under my seat It just brings us there and I think there be so many little aspects of that that resonate with our listeners as they think back. Frank is age nine. I thought that line, you know, his job of looking after all of us.

He is a carer, really, both for his mother and the younger siblings, Odette and Patrick. How did you get into his head? Well, it was actually my real aunt who told me a story about my brother aged. He would have been about five or six. she'd seen him my mother did have the baby blues and she'd seen him

pushing a chair up to the stove and taking out and making us porridge my younger brother and I and she told this story and what had struck her was how he was so competent at it like he'd done it many times before

and I sort of I really wanted to get into the head of that that boy and write it and it's obviously not my brother I just used that story as a way in. But I just, it was a weird sort of immersive feeling. I suppose, I don't know.

It was, I sort of, once I was in there and I had the voice, I just kept writing and it sort of took me where it took me. And it was sort of like being hypnotized in a way. It's a dream state that you go into. But there is something quite dream state about being a child as well, which comes across in the book. we do see with his mother, Cynthia, that she was failed by those around her, you know, baby blues,

but actually she was going through very severe postnatal depression or postpartum depression. She was being medicated and also self-medicating. Why did you want to write about that, really, from that 70s perspective? Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? It was such a big, I talked to my mother before she died about the experience and the sort of isolating. the way she felt very abandoned and isolated,

partly we were a military family and the way that the military family works means that the husband is sort of sent away a lot and families are left on their own. She felt very abandoned in that respect, but also by doctors, she would go to the doctor and say, I feel terrible, I feel like this,

and they would sort of pack her off and give her pills. And I think I wanted to write about it because I felt very sad for her and for women of her generation who went through this and their voices weren't heard, I guess that was one reason. I do think a lot of this book is also, it shows generational trauma really,

which can lead to cruelty by other children, for example. There's sadistic cousins in this particular book with potential for unacknowledged abuse. Was that difficult to explore? Yes, a little bit. And I think also, I mean, around the book, there's, what's happening off stage is there is abuse, I think, off stage as well. There is the sort of war generation grandparents above bearing down. And there are sort of, you know, you can see slight flickers of things that other things that might have happened in the family.

So you can see that there's possibly it's coming down the family. It is difficult to write about it. And that's one of the reasons why going at it at a particular angle felt easier. Yes, and neglectful parents, I should mention as well. Because Frank is trying to process that the nine-year-old life and events that are very difficult to make sense of. But what I found heartbreaking is that Frank has to remain hypervigilant to potential abuse. Yet he remains optimistic. And the love for his neglectful parents is astounding.

Yeah. I mean, children are so optimistic and resilient, you know, and then until maybe perhaps later on when they're on the couch and they're saying trouble was. Yeah. But yes, he does remain optimistic and hopeful. And but then there's this sort of, as the book goes on, there's a sort of way that he splits almost.

He wants to be with the cousins and be a sort of feral boy. And then he also, you know, he's in conflict with the side of him. And he's essentially an ethical boy that wants to look after. his siblings and he's worried about his mother. And so, yes, there is that sort of conflict within him. Yes, I know. What a beautiful character. Do you think 70s childhoods are over romanticised?

Yeah, I mean, they are very over. There were a lot, I mean, you know yourself, there was a lot of danger around in the 70s. And, well, we were allowed to run free, and it was great for imagination. I mean, it was fantastic for imagination because you, you know, you went into a field and you just made stuff up and, you know, that was how you existed. But today, you know, you know, we can say we give our, we track our children, we, you know, over, perhaps, you know, often it's said that we watch over them too much. But then again, they're allowed to roam free on the internet and there's a sort of wildness out there, which is also full of danger. So there are, obviously, these things repeat and there are that you can see there's a sort of. repetition in there. But there were also really, really good things about the 70s. So there were,

you know, I love obviously the idea of being able to let your imagination run wild. And that was a great, that was a great gift. You know, you're tying everything up together for us on this particular program because we were talking about internet dangers at the beginning with images. We've been talking about, you know, how to have a great summer with your kids without spending a fortune as well. Somebody got in touch, they said, I remember the summer of 1976 very well as I was just pregnant with my first child and I cannot wait to read Charlotte's account of all the relationships and the effect that the heat had on everyone's behaviour. And that is another thing. I'm reading it somewhat of a heat wave at the moment as well and it unlocked many memories. It's a beautiful read. Thank you so much for coming in and talking to us all about it and also reading a little for us as well. Charlotte Edwards is my guest and the book is Trouble. was. Tomorrow, if you join me, we will discuss finding love in an unlikely place, have you ever? Turns out four couples have done just that at a volunteer-run library in Hull. I'm going to be speaking to one of those couples, Mandy and Adrian, who hosted a celebration in their library on their

wedding day earlier this month. We all love a little bit of romance, don't we? So join me for that 10 a.m. tomorrow, see you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Silence in court. I'm Lucy Worsley, and in my brand new series, I'll be hearing about the women involved in some of history's most infamous legal battles. Women accused of murder, bigamy and adultery. Through to the shocking offence of not knowing their place.

With a team of all female detectives, I'll explore the lives at the centre of some extraordinary courtroom dramas, asking, has the justice system truly changed? Lady on Trial with Lucy Worsley From BBC Radio 4, listen now on BBC Sounds How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On good, bad billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune.

He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated squid games all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist re-shaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.