Woman's Hour - Aisling Bea, Profile of Yulia Navalnaya, Carmen Smith, Wellness v stoicism

Episode Date: February 19, 2024

The comedy and acting star Aisling Bea grew up in County Kildare in Ireland and in 2011 became the first woman for 20 years to win the prestigious stand-up competition So You Think You’re Funny? Her Bafta-winning sitcom This Way Up firmly established her as a presence to be reckoned with on our TV screens- last year she played the lead in the film based on Take That’s music, Greatest Days, and she regularly pops up on US TV and movies. She joins Emma Barnett to discuss her latest show, Alice and Jack, which has just begun on Channel 4.Following the death of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny, we look at the role of his wife, Yulia Navalnaya, and whether she might become the new face of the opposition. Yulia is due to speak with European foreign ministers in Brussels today. To discuss, Emma is joined by the Spectator's Russia correspondent, Owen Matthews, who was Bureau Chief for Newsweek in Moscow for more than a decade, and Sarah Rainsford, BBC Eastern Europe Correspondent who was expelled from Russia after many years, and is now based in Warsaw. Carmen Smith is 27 and set to become the youngest peer in the House of Lords. Carmen will replace Plaid Cymru’s only member of the Lords,  Dafydd Wigley (the Rt, Hon Lord Wigley) who is retiring aged 80, and was a previously leader of Plaid.  Carmen will be known as Baroness Smith of Llanfaes, the village where she grew up. She joins Emma to talk about the challenges ahead, the reaction to her selection and why she wants to join a body she believes should be abolished. Can Ancient Greek theories revolutionise our modern day lives? Australian author Brigid Delaney seems to think so. She talks to Emma about swapping wellness for stoicism, alongside classicist Professor Edith Hall.Presenter: Emma Barnett Produced by: Louise Corley Studio engineer: Steve Greenwood

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. It is Monday morning, so I'm happy to be able to tell you we have the Irish actor and comedian Aisling Bea on the programme today. She once said she rebuilt her bathroom around her BAFTA. So, the night after the film BAFTA, she's a pretty good person to have on for some grounding perspectives,

perhaps also some home renovation tips. I should also say at this point with the actor, Samantha Morton's acceptance speech for her BAFTA fellowship last night going viral. Lots of people clicking on that right now. I was just looking at it before I came on air. She dedicated that fellowship to children in care based on her childhood experience. Samantha Morton, I'm happy to be able to say, is coming on the programme tomorrow.

So, a lot of BAFTA award winners gracing the woman's microphone in the next 24 hours. I'm sure we'll get some wisdom and some humour as well from Aisling Bea, who's with me today. But I'll also have a primer on stoicism for you on today's programme. From Marcus Aurelius

to the present day, you will hear why one of my guests has given up on wellness, having really gone for it on that level, and become a stoic. But she will be challenged by an expert who's not so convinced and would like you to have more Aristotle in your life. I can't say that every day. But my question for you today revolves around the life and times of another guest on the programme, who at 27 is set to become the youngest peer in the House of Lords, Carmen Smith for the Welsh Nationalist Party Plaid Cymru. Her appointment has provoked quite a reaction for a number of reasons, but top of the list of concerns seem to be issues around her inexperience and youth.

This happened, you'll remember, not long ago when another former political advisor last year went into the upper chamber on Boris Johnson's list at the age of 30. My question is, what were you seen as too young to do? What do you make of such criticism? Do you have those concerns? Do you think they're valid actually about when it comes to specifically our lives and responsibility for our lives and politics and how to hold a mirror up to the government in this case and providing, as she would like to do, I'm sure she'll make this case, a better experience for the people of Wales. What is your view and what are some of your experiences when you were judged too young to do something? something, you can text me here, 84844. Looking forward to this. Email me via the Woman's Hour website or you can get in touch on WhatsApp or leave a voice note on 03700

100 444. Those numbers you need for anything you hear on the programme and you wish to contribute. But first, over the weekend, there have been many tributes to the Russian opposition leader, Alexei Navalny, after his death in an Arctic prison on Friday. Yesterday, his widow, Yulia Navalny, after his death in an Arctic prison on Friday. Yesterday, his widow,

Yulia Navalny, posted a touching picture on Instagram of her with her husband watching a performance, him gently kissing her head. Her words, the caption below, simply saying, I love you. On Friday, before his death was confirmed, Yulia spoke to the Munich Security Conference in Germany. And you all heard about the horrific news. I thought about it quite a while. I thought, should I stand here before you or should I go back to my children? And then I thought, what would have Alexei done in my place? And I'm sure that he would have been standing here. A translation there of Yulia speaking,

and she is due to speak today to European foreign ministers in Brussels. Previously viewed as someone remaining in the shadows, supporting not speaking with the death of her husband, regarded as the last of the opposition to the Kremlin, could she now become the face of opposition in Russian politics? I'm joined now by The Spectator's Russia correspondent, Owen Matthews, who was bureau chief for Newsweek in Moscow for more than a decade. And shortly we'll hear from Sarah Rainsford, who's now the BBC Eastern European correspondent based in Warsaw, but was in Russia and reported from there for more than 20 years until she was expelled in 2021.

Owen, that question then, I know you've been looking into it, the thought of Yulia becoming opposition. What do you make of that? Well, if her principle is to do what Alexei Navalny would have done, then she'll do it. She definitely has the authority, the moral authority. The question is, who is she going to lead? That's the real tragedy of the Russian opposition is so many of them have fled the country. In fact, up to a million Russians, exactly those people who would have supported Navalny, the intelligent, the smart, the well-educated, young professional classes, they've just left en masse.

And I think that's part of the reason, along with police repression, that kind of thing. But Russia has not risen to protest that brutality, that appalling murder, direct or indirect, of Navalny. So Yulia can indeed lead the Russian opposition, but the Russian opposition is basically outside Russia now. And she is as well and that's a complicated situation to try and have that together The real tragedy is that it could have been Alexei Navalny himself I knew him I respected him tremendously

but I think he was a fool to return, I think it was a tragic appalling miscalculation I think when I see those images today of, there's a woman called Svetlana Tikhanovskaya, the head of the Belarusian opposition, she fled. She was in fact was expelled from Belarus in August of 2020, more or less the same moment that Alexei Navalny was left in a medevac airplane having been poisoned. And today she met with Antony Blinken, the Secretary of State of the United States. She's been addressing the European Parliament. She is leading the opposition

from abroad. That could have been Alexei Navalny if he'd not chosen disastrously to return. But I think that there's every chance that Julianne de Waerner could take up the reins, could take up the leadership of Navalny's movement. And knowing her slightly, personally, I've been, you know, she's a very guarded person. She's a little spiky, I think. She's always been extremely intensely protective of her husband and fanatically loyal to him. So I think there's some questions about whether she has the charisma or the sort of practical intelligence. But there's no doubt that she has the moral authority. What does that mean, practical intelligence? Because in order to actually be the leader of the russian opposition you need to be agile you need to appeal to many different constituencies and actually that was alexei navani's genius is that actually his personal charm his charisma and frankly um

one mustn't speak ill of the dead but um his you know frank flirtation with Russian nationalism was what allowed him to appeal to people who were not just those liberal intelligentsia, but actually ordinary working class Russian people. You mentioned that you had met him and you'd met her and you know a bit. What can you tell us about Yulia and how you started to there, how she is and how they were as a couple? They were an incredibly close, loving couple. And actually, her role always was from a public from the public's point of view to stand by her man. And she said and she gave very few interviews. She deliberately kind of avoided the limelight for herself. And her position until her husband's poisoning and then later arrest

was that her job was to make a home life and make a semblance of normality even under FSB surveillance, even after harassment. Her husband was regularly arrested and thrown in jail for 10, 15 days at a time. And her role was as a homemaker and to keep the family together. That was what she would tell interviewers.

That's my job. Yeah, she said in a Russian edition of Harper's Bazaar, my main task is to make sure that in spite of everything, nothing in our family changes. Right. So that changed when her husband was arrested. And well, first it changed when he was poisoned because actually that was when she stepped into the limelight.

She actually flew straight to Omsk where he was in the hospital. Doctors tried to prevent her from seeing him. She was giving regular press conferences on the steps to the assembled world's media that were assembled there. She, through her force of character, made sure that she could see him. He was in a coma at the time. She basically shamed the Russian authorities into allowing him to leave, to be medevaced out, and thereby saved his life. And then for the moment of his arrest, she also actually had to step into a public role.

And she was the only member of that family, and along with some of his political aides who escaped. Plenty of them are still in jail, by the way. People like Ilya Yashin we shouldn't forget. There's still lots of people close to Navalny who are still suffering in that prison system, Vladimir Karamurza and so on. But she has the opportunity,

because she has the freedom to continue to voice those extremely brave and principled, be the brave and principled voice of the Russian opposition abroad. with what we know, do you think she will take that step up? And we should also say you talked about family. They have two sons. And she looks like she has that platform. She's taking a platform today in Europe. What do you think will happen? I don't know what her personal choice is going to be. I think it's possible that she's suffered enough that she's been completely broken by this experience. No one could humanly blame her if that was the case.

But I think actually her admiration and devotion to her late husband's cause is so strong that I think that would be for her. It's possible that would be she would see that as, you know, the highest expression of her love and the best way that she can memorialize and commemorate her husband's memory is to continue his fight. And her safety doing that? If she's abroad, then she's fine. If she tries to do it in Russia, as Alexei Navalny disastrously tried to do back in January of 2021, when he decided to go head to head with Putin by returning after his poisoning and was immediately arrested. I don't think that that's even remotely possible to be a public opposition figure in Russia anymore. Impossible. Sarah Rainsford's on the line now, the BBC's Eastern European correspondent, Eastern Europe correspondent, rather, I should say, based in Warsaw but as

I mentioned was in Russia reporting for more than 20 years. The latest that we've been hearing is also another woman in Alexei Navalny's life it's his mother as his life was and his team and the team around her being able to see his body. What is the

latest that we know? Well to be quite honest not that much because alexei nirvana's mother isn't being allowed uh access to the body of her son um she's spent the last few days uh being passed from pillar to post uh up in the arctic uh trying to find him and even now when she's arrived at the mortuary where she believes his body is being held she wasn't allowed in and the investigative committee where she believes his body is being held she wasn't allowed in and the investigative committee which is a very powerful body in Russia has apparently told Navalny's family that the investigation is continuing that it has been extended for an

unknown period of time we don't know how long that's going to go on for we have no idea when the results might be complete and available and who they'll be available to. And obviously, that's giving cause for a lot of concern, a lot of suspicion and a lot of accusations from Navalny's close team. They're accusing the authorities of deliberately delaying handing over the body and delaying the autopsy because they believe they're trying to cover up something about how Alexei Navalny died. So, frankly, all we have at the moment is that very initial statement, a very terse statement from the prison services. And they said he went out for a walk, he dropped to the ground, he collapsed and he died. And that is pretty much all we know for sure. Coming back to Yulia and the fact she's speaking to,

or she's due to speak to European foreign ministers in Brussels today, you also have had experience of meeting with the Navalny's and having a view perhaps on the role his wife has played, will play. Some refer to her as Russia's real First Lady. What is your take on that? I think she would be a very reluctant first lady. I don't think that's ever a role that she envisaged for herself. Of course, as Owen was just saying, you know, she's always been a massively firm pillar of support for her husband.

She was very often at protests and demonstrations, walking alongside him, holding his hand. She was behind him very much politically and very much committed to the same cause. But she wasn't ever a woman to step forward into the spotlight unless she had to. And she did have to on multiple occasions. And she did do that. And she does have a very strong moral authority, of course. But she doesn't really have the same pull politically at all as Alexei Navalny. And I suspect she wouldn't want to fulfill that duty.

But I do think that, you know, there is a role, sadly, which more and more women are being placed, forced into, let's say, which is this role of being an advocate in the international community. So, for example, Vladimir Karamazov, who is another political opponent of Vladimir Putin, who has been locked up for a very long time in Russia because he spoke out against the war in Ukraine. His wife, Yevgenia, has become a very, very vocal and very powerful advocate, talking to world leaders, to politicians and pushing very hard for tough sanctions against Russia, talking against the war in Ukraine, talking out against the Kremlin and against Putin,

and talking for her husband Vladimir. And so she's become that moral authority. And I suspect that Yulia Navalna might step into a similar role, which is an international role, pushing for firmer sanctions, pushing for tougher action, trying to sort of fill the gap in sanctions. And there are huge gaps to fill, for example. So I think, you know, that's a little bit of what we might be seeing today. And of course, all of that happening as she's still clearly just beginning the awful process

of grieving for her husband, she's just found out has died. Yes, which is important to say. But I think also drawing out, as you've done there, Sarah, the role that women are being wittingly or unwittingly pulled into is something to pay attention to and take notice of. And as Owen was saying, you know, where that opposition actually is and how they can be outside of Russia, most of the time, it seems, is important to note as well. Thank you very much, Sarah Rainsford there,

Owen Matthews, who is The Spectator's Russia correspondent. Thank you for that. And a message actually come in saying, don't put pressure or there shouldn't be pressure to put on Yulia to become the opposition, especially when it's just been highlighted how dangerous it is. She has children, reads one message just listening to that and others along those lines, but others, I'm sure, fascinated, which we were trying to do this morning to hear a bit more about the woman and what's going on.

And that presence that she has on social media and also that decision today and that ability to address political leaders will be something to pay attention to as that story continues to develop. I have also asked you today things that you were deemed too young for as I'll be talking a bit later on the programme to what will become the youngest to who will become rather the youngest peer in the House of Lords at the age of 27. I'll be talking to Carmen Smith shortly and there's a message here from Clara says I was deemed too young to be a museum curator at the age of 27 same age by other women. i still find it sad that my main critics were older women who i'd hoped might have supported me i've therefore made it my mission to support young female curators all my career but let me tell you about who's just walked in i did say it's a monday morning i would love to be able to say we might have a bit of comedy bit of joy bit of

entertainment and i i know she can do that don't want to put too much pressure on but she is a comedy and acting star on both sides of the pond. She grew up in County Kildare in Ireland and in 2012 became the first woman for 20 years to win the prestigious So You Think You're Funny competition for new stand-ups.

Her BAFTA winning sitcom This Way Up, and brilliant it was and is, firmly established her as a presence on our TV screens. I could go on, but her latest show, Alice and Jack, has just begun on Channel 4. A could go on, but her latest show, Alice and Jack, has just begun on Channel 4. Aisling B, good morning.

Good morning. What a lovely introduction there. We try, we try. We use the words and we work with what you've done. So thanks for that. Thanks very much. I feel like I'm too young to be on TV, to be honest. People are like, how could someone so young get on TV? And I'm like, guys, I'm just a teen like all the others, an ambitious teen.

39? Between there and 16. I've just turned 39, so I've got a vested interest. No, it's our year. We're both far too young to be here. But let's proceed. If we could just first talk about the new project, the new TV show, and then there are many things to get to, I hope. But you are playing Lynn, not

Alice or Jack. Not Alice or even Jack. Or even Jack and you are in a situation, you're in a relationship, you have a baby and you learn a bit more about your other half's ex which is a moment sometimes for people. Yes

well that's sort of been it's been an interesting reaction because we made this show a year and a half ago and if you don't know anything about it it stars the wonderful Donal Gleeson and Andrea Risborough and they're just two gorgeous people and actors who've worked together for kind of the course of over a decade in each other's lives and so when they were talking about doing this together it sort of mim them. The show is set over the course of 14 years where Alice and Jack come in and out of each other's lives. So that's kind of what happened with Donal and Andrea as well. And in that time, he meets me, Lynn, and we sort of get into a situation where it's not exactly love, but it's necessity and a baby.

And we find love in that time. And I did love the idea when I read this script of, especially at the time I didn't have a partner, I met Jack about two weeks afterwards actually. But the idea that you're dating and you're putting your heart out there and you just hope when you meet someone that they're probably in the same place because you don't know for most of dating

someone at the start if they are actually invested you put on a performance of a date in a restaurant in a cafe in the next day and my sunday's walking around together and um and then life gets in the way and um so lynn my character's journey is sort of finding out that all was not as it seemed and that while i thought i had all of him i actually didn't type of thing but he had all of me and I think that heartbreak is um something probably a lot of people relate to or from like the little messages I've been getting in I've been quite surprised by now I didn't write the show was written by Victor Levin who wrote Mad Men and stuff like that um but I've been quite interested by the reaction of people who were like oh I was the Lynn and I kind of find that by the reaction of people who were like, oh, I was the Lynn.

And I kind of find that a beautiful bit of like heartbreaking bit in life that like you might be the B character in a TV show, but you're the main character in your own version of that. And I've always been fascinated, even when I write my own stuff, of the person on the side who doesn't become the TV show or doesn't become the lead in the movie character because theirs is a more angsty sort of messy soup of emotions. Well, also, you're tackling there being the second choice. Yes.

And how you cope with that. Yes, and whether that is just life, like whether this idea that we should be, I should have been the first princess the prince ever gave a ring to, is sort of maybe some old, crazy idea that we have that life doesn't work out like that. And the relationships take work. And we all, the older you get, the more baggage you come, but also the more lessons you've learned and the more information you have about yourself as well. Like you've a bit more of a mission statement when you fall in love or find someone older and um and so yeah when when uh when i was

kind of like looking at lynn one thing i loved about her which i i don't know if it would totally be me would be a real knowing inner steel rod in her that says no i'm nobody's consolation prize or second choice i do not want that life whereas there's a lot of people and this is also a fine choice where you're like, I know I'm second choice and I'm fine with that. There are other areas

in my family, in my career where I want to be first, but here it doesn't have to be that. Well, it reminds me of Jolene. I just took this and it's all about her. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you know what? I referenced Jolene the other day actually because, but with Jolene she is happy to be second choice. Yeah, please don't take my man. Yeah, and she's like, please, I'm happy with second choice yeah please don't take my man yeah and she's like please I'm happy with second choice just don't let him leave me whereas Lynn my

character and this is like I'm begging you I'm walking away don't follow me you know I'm so happy you did that not me I leaned into your person but I would pay a lot of money to see yours Emma I feel though there's it's amazing that she does that idea of not letting that define you or negate your self-worth and I think we're a bit later in the program we're actually going to talk about stoicism and a way of living your life. Yes. And that as a philosophy and a principle and I think you know how to keep going with things when we're sold of course an era of being happy all day every day is the goal and it's not human and I'm always bolstered by other people's stories like you know if you're

having a fight with your partner and someone goes oh yeah my fella does that or my wife does that all the time or my partner does that and it's actually especially if they're relationships you really believe in from the outside you're like oh my god that is so nice to hear and you're not going around looking for terrible stories it's just so nice to know that behind doors things aren't lovely all the time

and things take work and they're hard and they're smelly at times and life is odd How smelly is yours? I feel like very very unsmelly but like the idea of life

isn't gorgeous and it's sometimes it's toilets and meals and dishes actually most of the time it is. And then the other bits are glorious that you kind of turn up for the sort of montage is what you stay for. But the main bits of the movie are the graft of it. And I think there's been a real trend in television even towards shows that show that because you're like, oh, thank can breathe out I am actually normal rather than this sort of like and then the next thing you know we were just perfect together and I'd met my other half I'm like no I don't have another half I'm all the bits the messy bits all fit in my jigsaw and so they have to be someone who sort of sits beside your own jigsaw I think well it's what goes on around the kitchen table, isn't it? Yes, and I think that's why people love, there's a lot of, I think, snobbery around reality TV.

And I understand the madness of how fake it actually reality can be, but also our own realities can be quite fake in terms of what we present on Instagram to our friends at dinner parties. And I love watching reality TV, but a lot of it is our fascination with what goes on behind people's doors and that we clearly don't know enough or are worried about our own when we're so obsessed with like, oh, my God, look at that wealthy, famous person in Beverly Hills. She also has trouble like looking after her kids.

Great. Just, you know, getting a wealthy home in Beverly Hills isn't going to take it away. Thank God that's actually normal. But your house sounds a bit Beverly Hills because you going to take it away. Thank God that's actually normal. But your house sounds a bit Beverly Hills because you rebuilt your bathroom around the BAFTA. Oh, Emma, if I had to answer this. No, no, I was only drawn to it

because of the BAFTAs last night. Yes, thank you. Come on. I have been asked about this nearly every single... Is it true? No, Michael, lovely Michael Colgan

who's a journalist with The Guardian. We had a gorgeous, and he's really funny and I love doing interviews with him because he's really funny. The journalists don't pick the byline. I joked, we were doing a Zoom

and I was like, look Michael, my BAFTA fits in my loo. I always wanted to be one of those people who had a loo in her bathroom and didn't kind of put it out front.

How embarrassing to own your successes. And I was like, and I actually redid my bathroom recently and the bathroom, it fits. On the shelf. And then of course the byline became, I rebuilt my bathroom around my bathtub. But I get asked about that headline. It's a good headline. Every, because I've been doing lots of press releases. Is it still in the loo though? Oh,

yes, it is. It is. Okay. Because I always, you know, it's good to know where people. Well, men notice it more than women because women obviously sit down and it's just behind the toilet and I do kind of like that. And if they haven't noticed it I know where they've been up to type of thing. Yeah exactly, you really do. And let's not get away, you won it for This Way Up.

You created, wrote and starred in. I don't want to not say all that. Thank you very much for my credits. In 2020 because you know not everybody realises who's writing what and you were talking about who's written what you've lately been in.

But I was really struck by Samantha Morton who I'm talking tomorrow to on the Tomorrow's Programme. Oh, I love Samantha Morton. And the speech is very powerful. She's talked about dedicating her fellowship

to those children in care. That's how she grew up. But she also, I don't know if you were struck by this, if you've seen it, but she also talked about some of her directing work and that she believes in god and she just sort of said it as a society which is not something usually here in award speeches and certainly british stars is it was a real sharing moment because we have a uh like i'd be

quite a spiritual person but i grew up very catholic but i wouldn't call myself religious or it's not a belief in god it's a belief in like I love that we're doing this here and not on Zoom because we have eye contact and connection and it's real and I can feel how this is going or went and whatever that is I believe in and that during the pandemic especially we lost all of our intense core spirituality with each other whatever that is and it's probably a scientist can come in and tell you that is dopamine serotonin and whatever else but I think sometimes we definitely judge people who we deem very clever to be um to be silly to believe in something that you can't see but then when you fall in love with someone you can't see

the love or you can't see all the rest of it and I think growing up religious and knowing like oh god like I fought against the you know the awful abortion laws in Ireland and so much of that was rooted in religion and so much Catholic guilt and everything comes with it but I've also been I also have like a nun in my family and I've seen the beautiful work her and a lot of her female colleagues do. And I've seen the best and the worst parts of it growing up intensely in quite a monoreligic, new word, add it to the dictionary. I'm sure Oxford people listen. The best and the worst of both sides. and it's given me a lot more of a like maybe and living in a country that doesn't have a religion around it other than maybe the royal family is the kind of closest thing to a religion.

Yeah, or the BBC, yeah. And it does make me a lot softer and more understanding and thinking, God, there's been times in my life where I've not known where to go and mentally and I have hoped to God that God is there and that's not from a belief in God that is literally a wringing my hands to the air the sky going oh I hope something's bigger than this and if if that's the only thing like crystals or whatever that gets you through the moment fine fine. You know, like fine. It's when it becomes a business

and a doctrine and rules and... And linked to politics. And linked to politics and linked to judging people's lives, sexuality, all the rest of it, that you're like, no, that's not, that's not that stuff. But if people have like a little

lucky pair of socks that gets them through the football match or whatever, you're like, absolutely go for it. You grew up surrounded by women, didn't you? Yes total matriarch to be to be so i didn't actually know i was one because it was an all-female environment it was my mother my sister and me we lived in the middle of nowhere my mother has seven sisters um and a very like a like a bulshy great granny i went to an all-girls school until I was 18. We only had female teachers. I think there was one put upon, there was one put upon male

vice principal in the secondary school at one point, and he was always like going, I'm just trying my best. I'm just always trying my best. I got love when he was really kind. But like, so I didn't know that wasn't how the world was. And it was such a shock to get to university and to kind of be speaking and like expect to be quiet or anything like that. I was like, I don't think so. So, yeah, it definitely going back, I wouldn't have changed it. I do love what it gave me. And I do have a real intense love of

women and the mess of us and all the different types and I suppose for me when I see stories on screen like trying to loop it back to my show or even this and they don't sound like the wealth of people I know I get so intensely angry and frustrated by it. When I see kind of like the same two or three characters crop up as if they're not all of the people I grew up and knew with all of their idiocies and brilliance and all the rest of it. I'm like, who, what, how did you manage to pick the same three people over and over again for these rom-coms or sitcoms or dramas

where it's, you know, sort of the nun, the sexy one or the sort of like, whoopsie. I just, we're all of those people all the time. And so. And if you actually write how women talk and how a lot of women talk to each other, it's complicated and very different. It gets deep and silly. You know, all of that range, which you look at, don't you?

And going forward, I've been very lucky that like've found myself, when I work on scripts where I'm playing a character and there's no room for making it nuanced, I get very frustrated. And when I'm allowed, like even on Alice and Jack, Victor really let me make the character my own. So it wasn't like the kind of Jolene-esque character, kind of like, oh, the man's left me. Like I wanted her to make her be someone we all know or are.

So when you see her on screen, you're like, oh God, that could have been me if I'd met the person who loved someone else. And that it feels like a whole person with a whole backstory. And I love any actor or writer who shows characters. And I have a lot of my writing friends have this as well, where, you know,

when you see a side character, like, oh God, I'd love to see their spinoff show. That means the writer's done a brilliant job and given an actor a good day at work. Because I always feel really guilty if you bring an actor on for two lines. I hope they're a good two lines

that they feel they're getting to do their art. You know what I mean? And I've you bring an actor on for two lines I hope they're a good two lines that they feel they're getting to do their art you know what I mean and I've been the person coming on for two lines and you're like I think this person had a lot of trauma and they're like no they're just putting the tea down on the table and then walking away saying thank you and you're like yeah I would have loved to have seen you do that role with the trauma and the tea and the nervous shaking thing going here's your tea don't ask me about it and then walking away but I love and I think that's why

you know it's important or even like when Samantha's talking about children in care like we have a very mono look at what those people look like

what their futures are like and it's normally always quite downtrodden and sad and there's a wealth of all of those people we want to get to see I hope she's got a bathroom that's as good as yours. And you've got your name of your podcast there, Trauma and Tea.

Oh, yes. So we've dealt with a few things this morning. Ashley B, the latest programme, Alice and Jack, as we started and slightly ended by talking, is just started on Channel 4. It's a joy to have you on the programme. Thank you so much. Thank you very much for coming on this morning.

And you heard, you know, Aisling saying she's too young to be on TV. You're still getting in touch. To say what you've been viewed as too young for, dear Emma, when I was a qualified media accountant, says Sarah, attending certain meetings with my boss aged 25 or 26, it was often assumed by clients I was his PA. Thankfully, he was always conscious of this and always introduced me along with my credentials early on and often asked my opinion on technical matters during the meeting.

I can imagine my experience would have been very different with a different manager. And so they go on. Keep your messages coming in. The reason I've asked you that, though, is because in April, the former Plaid Cymru adviser, Carmen Smith, will become the youngest peer in the House of Lords aged 27. Baroness Smith of Lanfeast, as she will be known, is replacing Lord Dafydd Wigley when he retires aged 80 as the Welsh Nationalist Party's only peer. Lord Wigley is Plaid Cymru's former leader, formerly an MP, also for nearly 30 years. Plaid Cymru, I should say, is unusual amongst the political parties in holding internal elections to select its nominees for the House of Lords. And one of the reasons Carmen's nomination was also deemed controversial by some is because she was actually the runner up.

She got the nomination as the highest polling woman, but as agreed by Plaid's national executive to improve female political representation, despite a man getting more votes than her, it's her. But this is also, just remember, a political party that doesn't even believe in the House of Lords. Carmen Smith joins me now from the BBC studios in Cardiff. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. A funny old turn here. Plaid Cymru, a party you joined as a teenager wanting to abolish the House of Lords. I also believe you're a Republican and this is perhaps a strange role. Yes, I think that some people might be surprised that, you know, we take seats in the Lords. But I think ultimately, wherever decisions about, well, that impact people in Wales are made, we must have voices there.

I mean, like you said there, I don't believe in the Lords as it exists in terms of being an unelected chamber. However, where decisions are made, we must have voices there and to change within. Do you think that's part of your party accepting that Welsh independence isn't going to happen? No, no, no, certainly not. That's, I mean, ultimately, I believe in my lifetime that we will have an independent Wales. Based on what? I mean, looking back through the polling data,

it's definitely going the wrong way. And, you know, Plaid's been around since 1925. I think that just speaking in terms of from my own generation, there's more and more support for independence for the younger generation. And so I think in the future we'll have more support for it. However, you know, in terms of as things currently stand in Westminster, make a lot of decisions that impact people in Wales. So we must have people there that represent them.

Yeah, I I mean the argument makes sense in that it but not in the context of a party I suppose that that doesn't want there but but moving from that you've explained if people were confused that the rationale that the party's fashioned you've also obviously signed up to it you're going in um as you expect to and there's also as I mentioned and that's an issue very important to Women's Hour, there's a desire by the party, not least, I'm sure, in light of some of the reports around the toxic culture of it, which perhaps we'll come to, a desire to improve female representation. What is your response to those who feel perhaps uncomfortable about the way that your nomination was come to? I think just in terms of you know how the how the process ran it's not unknown for us as a party and also other elections in Wales to have such a process in place where you ensure that women are elected into positions. We have ran similar processes for like Sen of elections in the past in like

99, 2003, where the first person on each of the regional lists was reserved for women. And so it's not it's not a new process. And, you know, just as a party of equality, it's quite important to us. But then specifically, you know, for this election, I mean, just look at the House of Lords. It's 70 percent men and the average age is 71. Well, yes. In fact, you know, the gentleman you were up against, Elfin Llewod, who's 72, previously the leader of Plaid and Westminster, came first in that. So your viewpoint would be we need more women and it doesn't matter about experience or democracy in that sense? No, certainly not.

And I hope that Alvin can join me, actually, in the Lords. We've made representations to have more seats and it's a list that we've elected, so to speak. So more people from a party who doesn't believe in the House of Lords. OK. Is it a difficult one to square, I imagine? No, well, I honestly don't feel it is, to be honest, in terms of, like I said, you know,

if you're going to make decisions that impact people, you know, you need people there that are going to be impacted ultimately. And until the institution doesn't exist, you know, we have to have voices there. And a lot of issues within society in terms of a lot of issues and struggles that people are going through are because of our broken political systems.

Well, on that, many will agree with you. And I don't want to not get to what what you want to do there it's just trying to tease out for people who aren't familiar with how the lords works and also perhaps how plied cymru comes to it i think it's important to make sure we we go through that and why there has been certain reactions and there's also been a reaction we've been getting some really interesting messages this morning from people who've been in not the same situation but they've been viewed as too young, perhaps to do their role. And that has had a response from people. And I wonder what that's been like, first of all, what sort of things have come to you? And how have you found that experience?

I think that ultimately, I was expecting it in terms of just some of the um the views um shared and um i completely accept people's um very you know different types of views that they'd have um in terms of my appointment however i think when it comes to age and gender it is a a difficult one um to square and i'm sure many of your listeners will understand um what that kind of feels like um as. However, it kind of in effect motivates me more in terms of hopefully by me going into this role that hopefully I can bring other women or people from other backgrounds into with me, so to speak, and hopefully that they will go for different positions in their communities in the future and get involved in campaigns that matter to them.

And because I completely, you know, it is tough. Don't get me wrong at all. And as many of your listeners might have written in regards to their own experiences of being judged in terms of their age. However, if we don't put people forward who look differently, but also more representative of our society, then how are we going to make that change, really? Well, and there's a great deal of concern in politics. It's given sometimes a bit of a title like intergenerational unfairness,

but there is a great deal of concern about whether younger people are fairly and could be better represented. What does that look like from your perspective about what you're going to try and bring to the table? Yeah, so, well, ultimately, I'll be going there to do a job of work. And there's a few different areas that, you know, I'd like to like to focus on but I think through doing that work I would hope kind of bring a different perspective in terms of just my own lived experiences. So I was a well I grew up in North Wales in a place called Ennismorn

where I was a young carer and I'm sure that some of your listeners as well might have experienced some like caring responsibilities and how difficult it can be to, you know, like balance different parts of your life, really. But in terms of how that shapes you as a person, in terms of how you might see things, you know, differently and also understand how perhaps life can be difficult for different types of people as well

and how that should be considered in wider policy changes and things that actually make a difference to people's day-to-day lives. So we should say a young carer for your father? Yes, my late father. Your late father. And from that perspective are you hoping to make that one of your issues how carers or in particular young carers lives are affected in the UK? It's definitely an interest area of mine and it's something that you know I'd love to

to further support young carers and other people who are carers with the type of supports that support they get because previously I was I used to work in the National Uni students as their deputy president and that was an area that I was you know very passionate about for those reasons and why I actually got involved politically really was to make things easier for young people going into um university in terms of how their means tested in terms of the financial support and and that um the means testing was was removed for student carers in in wales um after that campaign and there i mean there's loads of there's a host of areas um that you know could um that there's more support needed for carers but some of the things

that I'd like to focus on in the Lords are so in terms of well with Welsh communities a lot of Welsh communities have been scarred by the industrial past and so something that I'd really like to work on is in terms of looking at how Westminster can pay for coal tip safety and at the moment it's not something that Westminster sees that they're responsible for but in terms of that you know would make a difference in terms of how those communities are respected but also supported in the future and then a few other things and that you know are important to me is, well, Plaid Cymru, we've really been strong in terms of being against the Rwanda bill on the basis of it being immoral. And that is currently being discussed in the Lords.

It is. I mean, that sort of scrutiny. And there'll be, of course, those issues come to us as a party. It was just interesting to hear your personal potential potential, you know, top of the list that you've been thinking about. I did mention the culture of your political party. I mean, last May, the leader, Adam Price, and then leader, resigned after a damning review, which said that Plaid Cymru needs to detoxify

a culture of harassment, bullying and misogyny, and that too many instances of bad behaviour was tolerated and discrimination was gender based. As a 27 year old woman in Plaid Cymru, what is it like for you? I think that in terms of politics, you know, in general, it is really difficult for young women. I mean, you can you can just see in terms of how often the media treat, you know, men and women politicians quite differently in terms of how they're scrutinised. That is a point and one we've done a lot, but I asked quite a specific question about your party. And that's not about how the media has treated anybody.

It's about what's gone on within the party that you are now going to take a seat for in the House of Lords. Are you proud to do that after such reports? I am proud to represent Plaid Cymru. But I do agree that, I mean, the report on Project PALB is a list of recommendations that ultimately must be implemented. And as a young woman, you know, I have had those experiences, you know, in the party. And it has been difficult, but I do believe in the fact that, you know, the party's kind of made a brave step

in terms of, you know, outlining how they can improve and also kind of, you know, publicly stating that, yeah, this isn't okay and we must do something about it. And I think a lot of other organisations are going through a similar thing as well. We do a lot of them most days here on this programme. It's just good to hear your perspective as a young woman within that party, a younger woman, I should say, the next time I talk to you, you'll be a Baroness. So that will be a new title for me to introduce you. But for now, I think I just call you, if I can, Carmen Smith.

Thank you very much for talking to us this morning, giving us a window into your new job. The former Plaid Cymru advisor there, about to become the youngest peer in the House of Lords, aged 27. Thank you very much, indeed, hearing a bit about some of her priorities, but also those tensions for that political party taking a place in the House of Lords and a part of the political system it does not agree with. A message here, Lucy in Dorset, good morning to you. And I started my teaching career as a head

of drama department on my very first day. I was shouted at for being in the corridor at break time, maybe more because of how young I looked, perhaps, but still deserving of a smug answer back. Your message is about what you were deemed too young for. Very powerful one here. I've been told I'm too young to have had a stroke at 31. There's a lot of expectation around age and disability, and it's something that is rarely talked about. It's a very good point indeed. And another one from Marjorie says,

Dear Emma, I was 14. My mother considered me too young to attend my father's funeral, despite the fact I'd coped with his sudden death in a road accident. I never forgave her. And other messages about your experiences of being deemed too young or viewed different to your age to keep them coming in. But I did promise some words to live by. And here are some perhaps you may wish to live by. To live a good life, we have the potential for it if we learn to be indifferent to what makes no difference. Marcus Aurelius, Roman emperor, warrior and philosopher made that statement. He's known for his thinking and writing on Stoicism.

It's a school of philosophy that dates back to ancient Greece. Its aim, to maximise our happiness by focusing on the things in life we can control and having the confidence to make ourselves a priority. The theory is experiencing a resurgence. There's books, of course, then there'll be podcasts. You know how it goes. And the Australian journalist and political speechwriter Bridget Delaney, who has made a name for

herself in the pursuit of wellness, is on board with stoicism and also inspired her work, her writing inspired that Netflix series, which you may have seen, Wellmania. Bridget joins me live from Sydney in Australia. And in the studio, I'm joined by Professor of Classics and Ancient History at Durham University, Edith Hall, who I'll come to shortly. But Bridget, good morning. Good morning, Emma. How are you?

It's safe to say I'm all right. And how are you is a key question you've tried to answer with some of your wellness journeys. You really went for it, didn't you, with long fasts, Chinese medicine, all of that. I did. I started writing about wellness way before it became expensive and goopified. And then I watched the explosion of, you know, retreats, various types of meditation, different diets. And I wrote a book called Well Mania, which became a Netflix show with Celeste Barber. So that doesn't mean I'm well. I was going to say, what does that mean? What were you looking for?

What was going on in your life? I was looking for, initially I was going to a lot of monastic retreats. So I was interested in ancient traditions of disappearing from society and taking stock. And if you're not religious, that aspect of society has disappeared. And so I was interested in what would happen if you tried to integrate slowing down, going on retreat, going inwards. What would that look like? And it was kind of surprising slash not very surprising to see that the market came in very strongly when life became very hectic for a lot of people, people were getting burnt out, and then retreats

became this commodified thing. And stoicism, how have you come to that? And what is it for you? Well, I came to that just as a weekly column in The Guardian. And, you know, sometimes you run out of ideas. And a friend sent me a press release from Exeter University saying they're doing Stoic Week and would I write about it. I think the week before I'd written about taping my mouth shut while I was trying to sleep. So another wellness thing. And I found St, I found stoic weight quite challenging. I wrote a very flippant column on it and then was contacted by stoics

saying, look, you really should take this a bit more seriously. It's very helpful. And so the next year I went back and did it again, just in my own time with some friends and found it extremely useful. And that was before the pandemic. There's a lot of stuff around control. And in Australia, you know, the borders were shut. There were quite severe lockdowns for, you know, up to two years. And so stoicism was extremely helpful to me then. And what does that mean?

Could you give an example? Yeah, sure. So the basic kind of fundamental principle of stoicism is you can only control a few things in life. They are your own character, your actions and reactions, and how you treat other people. And everything else is pretty much out of your control, or at least your full control. So if you run everything through that test, say, for example, I have to catch a flight to London to have the interview, and I miss the flight because of weather. Well, that's frustrating, but the weather is out of my control. So instead of being stressed and anxious, I just go, okay, it's not within my control. I tried my best. I tried other ways of getting there,

but I couldn't do anything about it. So it relieves the burden of a lot of stresses. Is that how you would come to it, Edith? Let me bring you in at this point. I mean, Bridget's not saying every element of stoicism, but given a take of how it's helped her. That particular thing, which is that you think very hard about what you can control and what is down to luck or fortune, is common to all five ancient self-help schools of philosophy. There are five. That particular thing. The trouble is, though, she mentioned the commodification of retreats.

So Stoicism, new Stoicism, including the stuff coming out of Exeter, which managed to get the university in premature, is a huge industry. There's a lot of money involved in a thing called Stoicon, which is an annual conference. The Stoicism that they peddle is not anything that I, who've read every single word in Latin and Greek, of the ancient Stoics recognise. No one from Stoicon is here to reply. No, they're not. I'll just say at this point, but you've got a concern about the exact same thing with retreats

now happening. It is commodification, but it's also traducing the ancient school of Stoicism, which was a deeply masculine one. It's one that is beloved of the Roman ruling class, the slaveholding, oppressive, patriarchal men who ran the empire. I don't think you want to look too closely at Marcus Aurelius' personal life, thank you very much, or his imperial policies. And all four of the five schools are all based on something which is fundamentally flawed for the 21st century, which is soul-body division. So that is that your mind must control and an animal who've got passions and emotions and that they're actually healthy and need some kind of outlet. It's all about repression. This is why Stoicism was so easily adopted by early Christianity. The only school of thought in antiquity that started with the premise that actually our passions and emotions, because we're animals, are good, was Aristotelianism. And that for you is, I know it's hard to summarise, but I'm sure you'll be able to.

What does that mean? That means that we're always going for the middle way. So you say anger is not, we must suppress anger, which is Stoicism. They say anger is a form of madness. Aristotelianism says that it's on a line between no anger, which is stoicism. They say anger is a form of madness. Aristotelianism says that it's on a line between no anger, which makes you a useless moral agent, if you don't get angry when your kid is bullied in the place, to excessive anger in the wrong place at the wrong time. We need to get the right amount of anger to get us into the head teacher's office to defend our child. The same

with sex. Sex is good. This is why, you know, eating is good. Aristotelianism is the only one that is friendly to women because all the other systems saw women as just sort of animal and base, men as mind, women as body, lactation, child-rearing. That is why I've written my own self-help book on Aristotelianism. Now, I haven't made a lot of money out of it, but I do get a lot of people because as a woman who's brought up three children, I'm 64. I have been practicing this for 40 years.

And let me, can I bring in Bridget back at this point? Because, you know, what would you say to that? Yes, there's certain issues there, which is about the people and in particular, the man who came up with a lot of this and his personal life. But there's other issues around perhaps it's not being the healthiest way to live in the world and it being linked to repression what do you say to that um it's absolutely linked to repression um more than 2000 years ago when slavery was very common um in my book i i do challenge a lot of the things like desire you know and repression so i don't see it as a perfect philosophy, but I have found it very helpful.

And I look forward to reading your other guest's book because that sounds amazing as well. But look, I'll just read a quote from Seneca. Seneca said, men who have made these discoveries before us are not our masters, but our guides. Truth lies open for all. It has not yet been monopolized. And there is plenty of it left even for prosperity to discover. So I kind of took that as being life changes. There's been discoveries in neuroscience, in psychology, in, you know, the way we evolve.

And we're not meant to be literal with how the Stoics lived thousands of years ago. We take some of the like the virtues, for example, courage, justice, wisdom, temperance, all really great things that aren't gendered, you know, men and women have capacity for all of those. And then you don't have to take all of them. I'm sorry to cut across here. I'm nearly out of time. But Edith, I feel you wanted to say something very briefly, if you can. I absolutely think parts of Stoicism are fine, but it was actually posterior to Plato and Aristotle.

It's invented a century later. I would go back to the true source in democratic Athens. There you go. I think if you can end a programme with those words ringing in your ears from both sides there, you're in a good place. Bridget Delaney, Edith Hall, thank you very much for that. Thank you for your company today on tomorrow's programme, as I mentioned at the start, I'll be talking to Samantha Morton. So join me then for that and stay with Radio 4. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm Marianna Spring, the BBC's disinformation and social media correspondent. And I've learned firsthand that the online world can be a breeding ground for hate. But why do some people behave the way they do on social media?

For BBC Radio 4, I'm meeting the people at the heart of some extraordinary online conflicts to see if understanding, even forgiveness, is ever possible. Listen to Why Do You Hate Me on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from

this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.