Woman's Hour - Al Fayed abuse allegations, Co-housing, Ovarian cancer, Queens

Episode Date: June 4, 2026

Survivors who say they were abused by former Harrods owner Mohamed Al Fayed met Sir Keir Starmer yesterday afternoon, in what campaigners have described as a potentially significant moment. More than 400 allegations of sexual misconduct against Al Fayed, dating back to 1977, have now been made. The meeting was organised by The Survivors Trust and the All-Party Parliamentary Group on the Survivors of Mohamed Al Fayed and Harrods. Kylie Pentelow was joined by Lucy Duckworth from The Survivors Trust and survivor Carrie Lazell.A breakthrough drug for ovarian cancer that is kinder on the body and extends lives is now available on the NHS. Victoria Clare from Ovacome and patient Patricia Hill talk to Kylie. New Ground is the UK’s first purpose-built co-housing community for women over 50, designed and developed on their own terms. Each resident has her own self-contained flat, along with shared spaces. The women moved in 10 years ago, and the community is still going strong. But what’s it really like to live this way? And could co-housing be a model more women should consider? Kylie speaks to two residents, Jude and Ann.Stories about queens and princesses have shaped some of our most enduring ideas about womanhood. Historian Kate Williams joins Kylie to discuss her new book, Regina: A New History of Women and Power, which spans thousands of years, from the queens of ancient Egypt to the modern day.Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Corinna Jones

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Signal Awards recognise the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team and stand out.

The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Thanks for your company this Thursday morning. Coming up today, the new breakthrough drug for ovarian cancer that's kinder on the body and extends lives. We'll be speaking to one woman who's taken it.

Also, we'll be finding out about the co-housing community that's only for women over the age of 50. It was built 10 years ago, and we speak to two women who live there. Now, they say it's more about looking out for each other, not looking after each other. So this got us thinking about our neighbours and what they mean to us.

How do you help others in your community and how do they help you? Perhaps your neighbour became your best friend and confidant, or maybe they're just the perfect parcel collector. I really value the talks in the garden I have with my neighbour Rosie, and I'll offer a message Dave up the street to ask if he'll put my bins out for me when I've forgotten. So how is community working in your street?

Do get in touch with us. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Social media is at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us through our website or indeed send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 0-3700-144. Really interested to hear your views on that.

Also on the programme, historian-novelist Kate Williams joins me to talk about her new book, All About Royal Women and Power. We'll go right back to the time of Hatshep's suit, one of few women to rule as a pharaoh in her own right. But first, survivors who say they were abused by former Harrod's owner, Mohammed Al-Fayyad, had a meeting with Sikyah Stami yesterday afternoon in what campaigners have described as a significant moment. Some 400 allegations of sexual misconduct against Al-Fayyad, dating back to 1977, have now been made.

Campaigners want greater accountability and an examination of the systemic failures that they argue allowed abuse to continue for decades. Cates. Complaints from two of the women whose allegations were reported in 2008 were referred to the Independent Office for Police Conduct in November of 2024. Also last month, the IOPC launched an investigation into a serving metropolitan police officer and four former officers over their handling of allegations concerning Al-Fayyad. Well, yesterday's meeting with the Prime Minister was organised by the Survivors Trust and the all-party parliamentary group on the survivors of Mohammed al-Faid and Harrods. I'm joined by Lucy Darkworth,

policy lead for the Survivors Trust, who chaired the meeting. Good morning, Lucy. Good morning. Can you tell us a bit about how that meeting came about? Yes, one of the co-chairs of the APPG put a question in the chamber to the Prime Minister back in February, I think it was,

and asked him to look at this subject and to take it much more seriously than was being. and he immediately agreed and said that he would meet with survivors. There's a lot going on in the political world, as we all know, and that meeting took a while to get in place, which we understand. And then when it did, by that point, we have literally hundreds of survivors coming forward. So it wasn't a preferred format we would have liked,

as we weren't able to be in a room with everybody in person. But we did get a commitment that those in-person meetings will happen in time. So what was your main message for the Prime Minister? That we need a clear direction from the government to look at this. There's currently a Met investigation, as you referenced there, called Operation Corn Poppy. Survivors, I think it's fair to say. I'm sure Kerry will be able to answer this, but have completely lost trust in it.

It's not delivering. We're not getting timely updates. We're not even sure if it's adhering to the Victims Code at this stage. We also aren't quite sure who is. government is really looking at this. It's very complicated because it's not just about looking at Harrods. We're talking about human trafficking. We're talking about enablers. We're talking about lots of other people who also perpetrated abuse. It's very complex and it's got links to international rings as well and it's widely publicised about the links to Epstein.

So we really need the government to take this seriously and we were really happy to hear that commitment from the Prime Minister yesterday to make sure that happens. I just want to to read part of a statement that we've had from Harrod's, in relation to the former chairman, Nona, Mohamed Elfayy. They said we are utterly appalled by the allegations of abuse perpetuated by Mohammed Fyred. These were the actions of an individual who was intent on abusing his power wherever he operated. We condemn them in the strongest terms. We also acknowledge that during this time his victims have failed.

And for this, we sincerely apologise. You mentioned Kerry there. I want to bring in Kerry Lisell. Carrie, you've waived your right to anonymity to talk publicly about being groomed and sexually abused by the late Harrod's boss. You worked at the store when you're a young adult. Can you briefly tell me if you're comfortable to your experience? Yes, absolutely. So from my experience, it was 30 years ago, 1994 to 98 and I was 21 years old.

I was starting out in my career, very excited coming for an art and design degree and being promised a really spectacular job for me to work in the most prestigious store in the world, designing their window displays and packaging design and just everything that I dreamed of. So, wonderful job. Unfortunately, the price tag of that was the special attention that I got from the chairman who started off very, very cleverly grooming me, as indeed it turns out hundreds, possibly thousands of women he was doing the same too. But giving me special attention, giving me gifts, touching me inappropriately,

escalating into far worse situations, ending up with a very invasive, gynaecological, medical that I didn't want to have. But there was all promised within this sort of being looked at, after in this Harrod's family that I was going to be looked after and cared for, but actually groomed in order to, yeah, be very, very inappropriate sexually with me, which was absolutely terrifying and absolutely not wanted, and very young, naive age away from home for the first time and actually ended up destroying my chance of that career happening. I mean, what you went through was appalling.

How has it affected your life? You said it was about 30 years ago. Well, the interesting thing is this kind of abuse does affect your life forever. It really does it. It affects you in very peculiar ways. And again, I'm wanting to speak out because there's all the hundreds of women who have been affected in the same way and sometimes in horrific ways. Myself, I'm very lucky to be happily married and have lovely children and family.

So I'm eternally grateful that my life turned out. very well, but I lost my confidence. I lost my confidence in my career. I lost my confidence in the job that I had. I certainly didn't want to be in London anymore and I didn't want on to work in any of these kind of powerful institutions. I ran and I went to Africa and I never came back to London. I never worked in design again in that entity. I say I really lost my self-belief and confidence and trust and I couldn't speak about it because there was no black. form to speak or mention anything and we were threatened actually that was one of the one of the key things that we were threatened that we were never to speak about what's happened and and um and now he's

gone and now we have the wonderful support of lucy and and the you know the survivors trust and the amazing support to actually get something to happen to bring these people to justice to get some kind of answers and to move forward with safeguarding for the future so you were at that meeting yesterday why was it important for you to be there and do you believe that there will be change now? Well, I have to say, I don't 100% believe anything actually. It wasn't just one individual.

There were a lot of enablers to enable this to happen. It wasn't just in one store and Harrods. It was across the board of all the places that Mr. Alfay had. was present, whether it was in Paris or, you know, there was so many, this is such a big story. And we don't really have any confidence in the Met. And we want a public inquiry,

and we haven't got that confirmed. And there's a lot of things that we, you know, I think a lot of women are still feeling very, very unsure who to trust. Nothing happens until it does, I suppose. And, you know, we did get that commitment yesterday. We know working in a charity what a big deal that was and that no Prime Minister has ever met with survivors in this way. So it was a really big moment.

However, obviously it's only big if it's followed up by action. Kylie, if I could, I'd just like to talk about that Harrod's statement because it was literally last week they wrote to us and said that they were not going to provide any funding for support for the survivors. I mean, we're now in the hundreds. and for them to say it's an individual is, well, neglectful is the most diplomatic word I think I can find, because we know that there were many, many people who committed crimes, whether they facilitated or also perpetrated the abuse in there,

and Harrods are aware of that. An apology from them right now is not enough. We have to work together with the government to dismantle the structures that enable and facilitate this repeated abuse and cover up and lack of response to survivors. And very often we use words like pity and we're sorry and we're shocked. And they're valid emotions, but they're not what survivors want. They want action. They want to move on with their lives and they need help and support to do that.

We did have a commitment yesterday from the Prime Minister that through supporting the APPG will be able to run forums, will be able to learn more about what has happened to these women in detail so we can write reports and get that to them. We hope that funding is forthcoming to enable us to do that. But it's really important that we recognise that actually Harrods are not cooperating with us in a way we'd like. Let me just say that we obviously haven't put those specific points to Harrods that you mentioned just there. And the statement that I quoted is one that is publicly available on their website. In which I should point out they do go on to say that since new information came to light,

in 2020 3 about historic allegations of sexual abuse by fired. It's been our priority to settle claims in the quickest way possible, avoiding lengthy legal proceedings for the women involved. Like I said, they are not here to address some of those points that you made. You've said that the meeting that you had yesterday must be a turning point for victims of sex abuse. And Kerry mentioned there that it's this belief that there will be more than just that meeting yesterday afternoon. What hope do you have for that? I have a lot of hope.

The safeguarding minister, Natalie Fleet, was there and she was extremely passionate and enthusiastic about the Home Office's role in this, which is something we were absolutely delighted to hear. The Prime Minister instructed her to work consistently in a streamlined way with the APPG. So until now the work has been slightly stalled

by sporadic communication and we know that that will be an outcome from yesterday. So we're really looking forward to that and now being able to get on with the work. The APPG is obviously limited in its powers, but once we can start looking at this and make the recommendations, I'm very confident that the Prime Minister will look at those

and make the next steps that he needs to. And one of those is certainly looking at Operation Corn Poppy, which is run by the Metropolitan Police, as Carrie said, many people have completely lost trust. in that. I just, I will mention the Metropolitan Police Statement in a moment, but I just want to clarify you, by the APPG, you mean the all-party parliamentary group. No, no, it's fine on the survivors of Mohammed al-Fired and Hamids. What has that achieved, do you think, so far? Well, I mean, we've got 480 survivors who have come forward. The work of Wendy and

Dave's office has been absolutely incredible. At the Survivors Trust, we work a lot with MPs, and we have just been blown away by both Wendy and Dave's personal. Wendy Chamberlain. Sorry, Wendy Chamberlain and Dave Robertson, the MPs who are co-chairs of this group, they've put their incredible staff forward to facilitate this meeting. There was a lot of work that went into it,

and to be asking questions of Harrods of the Metropolitan and police, that information has not been forthcoming, but as soon as this meeting was announced, then communication was reinstated. So it's not necessarily so much what the Prime Minister can do himself, but just knowing that he is taking it seriously and working alongside number 10 in the home office now, we really do expect work to happen. So far, the APPG has provided a a streamlined place for so many survivors to come forward and that in itself is incredibly powerful. As I said, we've got 480. We expect it to be many, many more. You mentioned that you've had a surge of calls to your helpline since that meeting. Can you

tell me more about that? We've had a huge increase in all correspondence to the survivors' trust. It's really worth remembering that obviously while we are talking about this and these survivors have had their own unique experience that sexual abuse and sexual assault in this country is a national emergency. We deal with survivors across the country and every time something like this is in the press, no matter where or who your abuser was, we know that it encourages people to come forward. It reminds them of what has happened. And as Carrie touched on, this is often a lifelong trauma. Survivors of any form of sexual assault have a huge amount of challenges and barriers in society, whether it's healthcare, employment, education,

and we're seeking to work with the government to improve access for all of those and improve response to all survivors of sexual abuse. Carrie, just finally, what's your hope now and in light of yesterday's meeting, what would you like to see happen? Well, I'm fuelled to do this because I have a daughter now who's nearly 16

and is about to go into the workplace. And that is why I am really, grateful to be here, grateful to have my voice heard, grateful to be able to hopefully represent all these hundreds of women who I'm encouraged to come forward and explain what happened to them as well because it is absolutely vital. You know, as Lucy said, the abuse, the sexual abuse of young women, young children, young boys.

This was absolutely systematic abuse over three or four decades. It was an extraordinary story. I mean, it's so vast. And what is going to happen next? What safeguard is going to be put in place? How can we ensure going forward you can go into the workplace without this happening? Who do you talk to? Who takes you seriously?

What independent body is given the funding, you know, the Survivors Trust is an amazing organisation. It needs help funding to be able to help the thousands of people in 2020. in Britain who are being sexually abused at work. This is absolutely unforgivable. It's been going on far, far, far too long, and it's still going on today, and it has to stop. Carrie Lazzell and Lucy Duckworth,

thank you very much indeed for speaking to us on Women's Hour today. We have a statement from the Metropolitan Police who have said that four suspects have been interviewed under caution so far in our determination to bring anyone who is suspected to have played a part in Mohammed al-Faid's offending to justice. To date, 155 victims have come forward and reported allegations of sexual assault, rape and sexual exploitation and human trafficking. Over the past 18 months, officers have taken detailed accounts for victims and witnesses. They conclude by saying the victims are at the heart of our investigation,

and it remains our priority to communicate with them clearly and meaningfully as the investigation progresses. The most recent update was shared in the form of a video briefing on the 11th of May with all 155 victims. just to say if you have been affected by anything you've heard, there are links to help and support on the BBC action line. Now, a breakthrough drug for ovarian cancer that's kinder on the body and extends lives is now available on the NHS. The drug called Mavextoctomab is known as a biological missile as it delivers chemotherapy drugs direct to the cancer tissue rather than to the whole body, reducing debilitating side effects. Now, up to 400 patients a year in England could benefit from the new treatment, the first for hard-to-treat ovarian cancer in 20 years.

Well, Victoria Claire is the chief executive from the ovarian cancer charity, Overcome, and Patricia Hill is a patient who is using this new treatment. Welcome to both of you to Women's Hour. Victoria, can I start with you? So what treatments are there for women who are diet? diagnosed with ovarian cancer? Hi, Kylie. So generally, when people are diagnosed with ovarian cancer, they have chemotherapy, surgery,

chemotherapy, and then parp inhibitors. So that's the kind of standard of care at the moment. And the really important thing about this drug, myvatuximab, being made available now, is because it's made available when those other treatments have stopped working. So they're becoming less effective. And so this is the first treatment of its kind to be, to be available on NHS England, but at that point when the other treatments have stopped working.

So how does it actually work then? Okay, so the way that chemotherapy works, which is at the moment, so standard of care, this point of treatment at the moment, is chemotherapy. And what that does is it poisons the cancer cell, it kills the cancer cell, but it also kills a lot of other healthy cells. This treatment, mervatuximab,

also known as Ella here, is a little bit like a Trojan horse. It essentially goes into the cell, the cancer cell, and kills it, which means that it doesn't kill so many of the healthy cells around it, which is the main reason why we believe that the side effects are far less. It gives a much better quality of life to people with the disease. And it's really important as well to remember that for ovarian cancer patients, most people are diagnosed late stage, so stage three or four, and there's a very high rate of recurrence.

So people will be diagnosed, treated, and then they will have a recurrence, and they'll be treated again, and then they'll have a recurrence. And so this is a change-up, an additional tool that the consultants have in their toolbox to be able to challenge the disease after it's recurred again and again.

Patricia, can I bring you in here then? Can you tell us about your journey to this point? and when you first were diagnosed with ovarian cancer? Hi there. I was first diagnosed with ovarian cancer in March, 2023, but I had previously been symptomatic from about the end of October 2022. So in March 2023, when I was first diagnosed, I had, as Victoria pointed out,

I had three lots of chemotherapy, then I had surgery, then I had three lots more of chemotherapy. Then I was put on a parp inhibitor for about eight, nine months. After I had the original surgery, there was no evidence of disease. They were very, very happy the consultants that they had cleared any of the sort of existing cancer cells at that time. But within about nine months, the recurrence happened. So I ended up going on what's called second line chemotherapy. So I had more chemotherapy for another six cycles.

So another six months, essentially, of chemotherapy. And then that helped for a while. And then the disease got worse. And I had a third lot, a third sort of line of chemotherapy that was less effective, which was in about November just gone. And then it was decided that I was offered the opportunity to go on the Myrbituximab at the end of January. And it has been a game changer for me since then.

So it's really transformed how I've been treated as, you know, from an ovarian cancer patient perspective since then. So tell me about it then. How has it changed your life? And what's the difference between it and the normal chemo? that you were having? Well, if I answer your second question first, the normal conventional chemotherapy, the side effects can be, it depends and varies from person to person, but normally you get things like mouth ulcers, cold sores, you're very, very tired, you feel very, very sick, you've got nausea,

you've got suppression of appetite. I think the most significant thing that happens, perhaps with chemotherapy, conventional chemotherapy, is that you become immunosuppressed because it actually, the chemotherapy affects your blood cells. So your white blood cells end up being reduced, so therefore you're at increased risk of infection. With the new myrbituximab, that does not happen to the same degree at all. I think it happened,

Victoria may be able to speak to this a little bit better than I, but my blood cells are fairly, fairly unaffected as a result of being on a my burbituxa map. So consequently, you could do things like go on a plane. You can actually be on public transport. So you can be around people and not worry about the infections? Absolutely. You can go to the theatre. You can go to the cinema.

You can integrate with friends and family and socially, which you tend when you're on chemotherapy to be. quite socially isolated to a certain degree. And that actually does not happen with the marbatuximab. And the other thing, which I think is perhaps quite important as well, is you're not as, well, I find that I'm not as exhausted as you would be on the conventional chemotherapy. So therefore, you actually have a better quality of life.

And I would kind of look at it almost as though this drug gives you, it adds quality, you know, life to years rather than years to life. So it actually does improve your general well-being. I mean, obviously there are other side effects that you're sort of dealing with as well. So it's not a panacea, but it's certainly a fast improvement on conventional chemotherapy. And it's wonderful that's actually being offered now and available on the NHS. Victoria, it's important to say that this isn't available for just anyone who has ovarian cancer. You have to reach a certain stage, don't you?

Yeah, sure. And this, I mean, you know, you have to be at the late stages of the disease. So you need to have had chemotherapy and the chemotherapy needs to be stopping working. And then a test can be done called folate receptor alpha test. And that test will tell you whether or not you're likely to benefit from Mervatuxababab. And then if so, then from now on, from today, literally onwards, then Mervatuximab can be given. But it's so, you know, As Patricia's said, you know, that different side effects profile is really, really important, particularly for people that have been through grueling, you know, treatments again, again, again, you know, to be able to spend time with their loved ones, to be able to do the things they really want to do. Was it hard to get this drug approved by NICE? Well, I wouldn't say it was hard to get the drug approved by NICE necessarily. I think the thing is, is that this drug, because it's considered only for the late stages of the disease, is really, it's difficult for, it was difficult for Nice to approve, basically, because we're not talking about curative intent with this drug, right? So with that in mind, what we did as National Ovarian Cancer Charity was we spoke to Nice and we found out where their knowledge gaps were and where the data gaps were.

So we came to understand that actually, because there's never really been effect, any alternative treatments for ovarian cancer at a point of platinum resistance that stage, that fundamentally what was happening was they didn't have the data. They couldn't understand, you know, they didn't have the strength of argument to show what standard of care looked like at that point. So what we did was we put it out to our community. 145 people responded over Christmas. and we were able to put together a really strong report that showed that patients really

felt that they really did need the opportunity to have this drug funded. It's a real triumph, really, for patient voice from our perspective. You know, as an ovarian cancer charity, we haven't seen investment coming into ovarian cancer in the same way that we have with other diseases. You know, we haven't seen research happen at the same rates. So for nice and NHS England to listen and really listen to the patient voices and for our community to be able to stand up and have their voices and their viewpoints amplified has been really, really wonderful.

Patricia, if I can just finish with you, you must be so delighted that this work has gone into approving this drug so that other women like you can have a more enriched life. Oh, absolutely. And I think the most important thing as well is that it's actually effective. So not only is it, are the side effects very, very different from the chemotherapy, but it actually works. But it is fantastic opportunity for people to, for everyone who's foliative receptors, who has those to actually receive the benefit of this particular treatment.

So, yeah, it's fantastic. Great news. Victoria, Claire and Patricia Hill, it's been wonderful to speak to you this morning. Thank you so much. and you can always find information on sources of support for those with cancer. It's all on the BBC Action Line website. Now, we've been asking for your stories of your neighbours and what you do for them, what it means to have them on your doorsteps. It's because in a few moments' time I'll be speaking to two women

who live in an all-female co-housing community. So we've had plenty of you messaging in. This one here says, My next-door neighbours have two primary school-aged children and relied on the grandparents to do the school runs. parents work full time. The grandparents moved away and myself and another neighbour also have kids at the same school have been walking their children to and from school and looking after them. Five-day wraparound childcare for two kids is unaffordable for them. Another one here, my neighbours

left, right and behind me are all lovely. Whether it's taking impassels, we all know how important that is keeping an eye out for a missing cat or just enjoying an occasional afterwork gin. They're all pleasant. Neighbours don't have to be friends, but they do have to be considerate After all, this is a community. Consideration and friendliness benefits all and enhances everyone's lives. Thanks, Michelle in Nottingham, for getting in touch with us about that. Do keep your comments coming in. You can text on 84844 on WhatsApp.

It's 0-3-700-100-444. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top. top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out.

The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. I need to just tell you about an exciting event that we've got coming up. Women's Hour are going to be at the Crossed Wires Podcast Festival in Sheffield next month, and we'd really like you to join us. We'll be broadcasting live from the Montgomery in Sheffield on Friday the 3rd of July. Then we'll also be recording an edition of our podcast, The Women's Hour, Guide, to Life, on stage at 2pm later that day.

You can get your free tickets for either or for both, if you like. Just visit crossedwires.com. For information on getting those free tickets and also to see the full list of programs that Radio Forum BBC Sounds are showcasing in Sheffield from Thursday the 2nd to Sunday the 5th of July. That also includes programs like lady killers, WhatsApp docks and uncanny.

So don't forget to check that out for your free tickets. So what would it be like to grow older in a community of other women? Well, in North London, 26 women are doing exactly that. New Ground is the UK's first purpose-built co-housing community for women over 50, designed and developed on their own terms. There are 25 self-contained flats along with shared communal spaces. The women moved in 10 years ago and the community is still going strong.

The story of New Ground, which began almost two decades earlier and the women who live there is told in a new book our later years. But what's it really like to live this one? way and could co-housing be a model more women should consider? Well, I'm delighted to say that I'm joined by two of the residents, Jude and Anne, who've both lived at Newground for the past 10 years. Good morning to you both. Good morning. This is so intriguing to me and I'm really interested to hear from you both on this. But Jude, I wonder first, if you can take us back to how and why the idea for this community first came about. Well, co-housing is really common in Scandinavia. It started in Denmark.

in the 60s, I think, 70s. And a woman called Maria Brenton and academics started researching co-housing. And in the late 90s, 1999, I think, she put an ad in a newspaper saying were women in this country interested. And the first group met at a pub in Kings Cross back in 1999. And that was the beginning of our journey. It took 17 years to get to where we're going, to where we got. because nobody heard of co-housing. We were a group of women that people thought,

what are they on about, you know, they want to live together? And that was the beginning. And then we went through the usual thing of getting the right group together. I think about over the years nearly 300 women joined that group, but fell away because they're getting older. They're in their 50s, 60s, maybe 70s. And they couldn't wait any longer to plan the future. But in the end, there was 26 women who moved in 2016.

Anne and I were two of those and we're still there. So paint a picture for us then, Jude. What's it like? You have your own space, don't you, but shared spaces? Yes. The development has one, two and three bedroom apartments and every apartment has their own outside space, be it a terrace or a balcony.

And then we have shared spaces, which is common in co-housing. There's a central room called a common house, and we use that for communal meals, which we get together probably every couple of weeks to have a communal meal and there's a large kitchen and office

the best thing about new ground is our outside space. We're very, very fortunate to be in, you know, on the outskirts of London with our own outside space and then communal gardens and an orchard and vegetable beds.

It's wonderful. And there's different communal spaces throughout the building and they're set up in such a way that people meet each other, going through their day. If you're leaving, you go through one central door. But everybody's space is private.

So, Anne, if I can bring you in, what made you decide initially that this is something that you wanted to be part of? I had been living abroad and I came back to the UK and I always say, my daughter said, Mum, you can't be a nomad forever.

And I had a previous career in housing So I started looking online and it just popped up. It was serendipitous and I went along and met the group of women and I really love the idea. So I decided to join. And I was one of the last people to join. I sort of slipped in at the last minute. And I'm guessing that you all have kind of certain values that you share to want to live in a space like this. Yes, I think it's about being a good name.

I mean, obviously with 26 women, we can't all be friends. But we say we want to be good neighbours. We're green thinking in terms of gardening and recycling. And what we say is we look out for each other but not after each other. So a good example is if someone has an operation or is unwell, we may set up a rotor to cook meals and give lifts to the hospital or the doctor. doctors, but it's not to replace the services that people need, like if they do need to go to hospital. And it's a lovely place to live. It's very safe and very sociable if you want it to be

sociable and you also have your privacy as well. That must be reassuring to know that if you're in a situation where you can't get out the house for some reason to get your groceries, that there will be other people around you. Yes, it is. It's an intentional neighbourhood really. You know, we came together. with the intention of supporting each other. But it's lovely. I mean, recently I had a full ankle replacement. And I didn't have to call on my daughter or my granddaughter. There was always somebody to either bring some food or have a cup of coffee or a glass of wine or whatever.

Yeah, people help each other. Your family, though, Jude, weren't they a bit skeptical at first when he told him Bernard? I think people are. And I think even we as individuals might have been in the beginning, we always had to explain what it was and we got lots of, preconceived ideas and I had preconceived ideas. Like what? Like, do I really just want to live in one place?

I've always lived, I've lived in various different places and do I want to commit to living in one place? Is this the last place I'm going to live? You know, is this my kind of, is this a final frontier for me? And I went in with the attitude and I told my family this, well, if I don't like it, I leave. And since I've been, the only time I've ever stayed in one, place, which was when I was in my parents' house growing up, I never stayed in any place. I've

always been around London since I moved here, but I've never stayed in one place for more than six years. And 10 years on, I'm still there. And I've got no intention of leaving. It must be okay, then. It is. It's very okay. Let's be honest, though. You can't get on with everyone, can you? There must be some friction, Anne, without mentioning any names of any of the other people. Yes, of course there is. I think when we first moved in, we were all so happy to live there that we spent quite a lot of time hugging each other. Hi, you know, and everybody was excited. But, you know, that wears off.

And you find that you prefer some people over others. And sometimes decision making can be quite torturous. Because you run by consensus, right? consensus and some people want that decision making to be used for every little detail and other people are quite easy going and say well I'll go with the majority you know but it you know it is tricky sometimes and it's not for everyone I think it's a beautiful place to live when I first moved there I thought I was a very sociable person but actually I found out that I'm actually quite private and I had to balance that with people and um

You know, I think it is a beautiful place to live, but, you know, it requires commitment, lots of commitment, to make it all work. Because there is a communal meal every week, but that's not for you, Anne. No. No, it's definitely not for me. I'm not the world's best cook, and I certainly don't want to cook for 20 plus people. And on a Friday night, where I work full time, so on a Friday night, when I come home, that's the last thing in the world I want to do. So I said to them, you know, I'm not going to cook. And some people didn't like it.

But most people said, yes, good for you. I'm glad you said it out loud. And now nobody pesters me. And sometimes I go once a year maybe. And that's okay. People know who I am. A guest appearance. Yeah.

And Jude, I was reading that when you were working, you would have to schedule a half an hour before you left for work because you were so caught up saying hello to everyone. I think, following on from what Anne said, we were so enthusiastic. It was like the first year of a relationship or when you move in with somebody and you try to be, you know, you make extra time for everybody all the time. And then you find a plateau and you get on with it. But yes, you'd be going out the door and you'd meet somebody and they say, how are you? And then you tell them or you'd ask them, how are they?

And they tell you. And we got over that. You know, we learned the nuances of each other, how to back. balance, privacy and community. But it was a learning curve, you know, a learning curve indeed. Talking about relationships, let's talk about male guests. You are allowed to have men stay, but not permanently. Yeah, I mean, this is a question we're always asked, of course.

It comes to this all the time. And I think people get the wrong impression. Of course, men are allowed. I mean, we are, you know, the mothers of sons and the daughters of fathers. and we have friends and people are in relationships, but only a woman can own a place or rent a place there. And I'm always interested this is asked, but one of the things as one gets older,

you need security and space that's yours. And I think when you've got that, and we made that for ourselves, it opens things out. People think, you know, as you get older, things contract. But actually, if you've got the right things in place and you plan them, it expands. you've got the time to do things you didn't have when you were younger, when you were a family, a career, relationships,

and then you hit this sweet space that we have to do the things you want to do. It's marvelous. So it's not that men are excluded, they're included on our terms. And you're keen to see more developments like this. Yes, absolutely. I mean, I don't know about you, but when I was younger, me and my friends used to say, let's get a house by the sea and all live together.

and it's a dream. But actually, we've made that dream happen in a different way. And I'd really encourage younger women in your 40s, 50s, to start thinking about the future and how you'd like to live. When I moved in at 50, I felt like, oh, this was a really big deal for me. But actually, it was just the right time, I think. I think it's too late if you wait to your 60 or 70, you know, things start creeping up on you. your bones start aching, a few things start going wrong.

Do it earlier is what I say. And we've kind of talked around the loneliness issue, but it sounds like neither of you have any concerns about becoming more lonely as you get older. No, there's always somebody to have a chat with. I mean, we've still got outside lives, be at work and families and friends, but it's lovely to know of an evening.

For example, I might decide I'm going to see a film. And I'll put a little note out saying, does anybody want to come? I mean, again, it's getting the right balance between privacy and community. But one need, I mean, the thing is you can be lonely inside yourself if you're in a crowd of 100. But there's no need to feel alone where we live. It's so wonderful to speak to you both and to hear about the community that you live in. And, thank you so much. Thank you.

If you want to find out more about New Ground, their book, is our later years and it's out now. We've had so many comments on the value of neighbours and your community. I just want to read a couple of them. This one here says, I got kicked by one of my horses and broke my leg, plus multiple ligament damage. My neighbours John and Theresa at the yard were amazing

and took over looking after our horses for four months and still help now. They're not horsy people either, so appreciated. And this one here, I live in a brilliant community from street parties to play streets to recent. installation of swift boxes. There are people who've looked out for each other. It's been a really important space for me to learn from other people. Thank you very much to keep your comments coming in on that. Now, stories about queens and princesses have shaped some of our most

enduring ideas about womanhood. Yet their lives have often been interpreted through the eyes of men. My next guest, historian and novelist Kate Williams, whose books include becoming Queen Victoria and young Elizabeth explores that idea. in her new book, Regina, a new history of women and power. Spanning thousands of years from the queens of ancient Egypt to the modern day, it examines how royal women have exercised power, had it denied to them, and helped shape history. And Kate joins me in the Women's Hour studio. Now, good morning, Kaylee.

I mean, it's a big project this that you've undertaken. Why did you decide to do it? Seven years of work, 80 queens. It was meant to be smaller. but it just got bigger and bigger because the same patterns kept repeating themselves over and over again from ancient Egypt through the medieval times

right through to the modern day as you say and you know queens are mythological beings they have these words woven around them these stories and so often we are fascinated in society by the kings who are seen as great kings Julius Caesar Alexander the great Henry V but the queens that society seems to find most fascinating

are those who are deemed, even though they're not, those who are deemed failures. Cleopatra's blamed for losing Egypt. Mary the first is blamed for ruining Catholic, the idea of Catholic Britain, and Marie Antoinette is blamed for losing France. And even Ambelin is blamed for Henry the 8th's set up, political set up upon her. So why is it that we have these women are turned into cautionary tales? And I think that so often it's a cautionary tale about saying, if you give women power, this is what happens.

Total disaster. That's the vision that's promoted. And you explore the two types of queen, regnant and consort. Regnant queens who ruled in their own right, consorts as in related to a reigning monarch, usually the spouse. And you say we often undervalue the queen consort

and overvalue the contribution of the queen regnant. Why do you think that? Yes, I think we often ignore the importance of the queen consort. We often, behind all of our great queen regnance, there's a queen consort. We often look a lot about her relationship with her father. We talk a lot about the relationship with Elizabeth I first and evoking Henry VIII. But what about her mother? What about Ambelin?

Who she does, just know her, but she does think about a lot in her life. And also have other stepmothers, including Catherine Parr, including also Jane Seymour and Catherine Howard. So we forget about the importance of a queen consort. and even Hapshepsut, the great queen, the earliest long-reigning queen we have because she goes right back in ancient Egypt. She has a very powerful mother who stands behind her and what she does is they really sort of emphasise this role of high priestess to the god Armune and that is a role that only a royal woman can take

and you take this role of always working with the priest and Shepshut has this role as a young girl And that means that when she wants to seize power, she has the priest class all around her. And that's really due to this line of strong women behind her. So I think we like to imagine, I think often that Queen Consort, if we allow them to be good and successful, we want to cut them off from the female tradition behind them. And we want to identify them with men. Yes, they did also do that.

But Elizabeth I also did surround herself with Anne Boleyn's relatives. So she wasn't ignoring Anne Boleyn. We just like to imagine that she did. I want to talk about hatchet suit because I found her really interesting. So she ruled from 1479 BC. I think it was really interesting that after she gained the throne, she adopted male dress, didn't she, even a beard? What's that all about?

Because she gained the throne. She was the queen consort married to her brother and then he died. She was the great high priestess, was a female role. She was the Queen Consort married to her brother. He died and then she didn't have a son with him and her stepson. He came to the throne. And initially she's regent and then she basically seizes power for herself. And she ceases power until she dies and then the poor old steps and says, okay, finally I'm getting to rain now. And she is such an incredible figure. She's a great queen. She's not, Egypt. There was huge amounts of wealth rolled into Egypt. You know,

She was a great success in terms of foreign policy. She built and yet she does. What she does is this she adopts the kingly dress. She wears the kingly outfit. And you see a transition. You see a transition. She starts to adopt the dress. And then she realizes that it's best to adopt the whole outfit of a king.

And in her incredible temple, her incredible mansion of million years, Dera Bahiri just near the Nile in Luxor, it's all about her birth. And she creates this birth story by which she is born as a little boy. And so she is both male and female. I think she transcends gender because she sees herself as doing so. And she adopts, there's not really a model for female monarchy. We have a few female monarchs before, Maronais, Sobuk Nefrew,

Sobuk Nefrew turned herself into the crocodile gods. So she adopts a male insignia as well, but we don't know how much Hapshepsuit would have known of them. So she creates our own role. and she is both, she gets to the position through being consort and priestess. Once she's there, she is the female male king, the she king. We're quite fortunate that we actually know that she was a female at all because the evidence of her being a woman was tried to be destroyed, wasn't it? At the end of her stepson's reign.

So most of her stepson's reign, Thutmos, he leaves the representations of her. And at the end of his reign, he engages in a wholesale distraud. sends out the builders to get rid of all the representations of Hatshepsuit. We presume it's because he wanted to secure the line for his son. And so in her actual own temple, she's all scrubbed off. She's all scrubbed off. And in there, she had the tip of an obelisk that she commissioned a Karnik, and it's now in the amazing new Grand Egyptian Museum.

And it was her giving offerings to the god Armune, but they scrubbed her off and replaced her with a totally random. bunch of flowers. I mean, I'm no artist, but even I can make a better bunch of flowers. It's hopeless. So a woman becomes a bunch of flowers. And I wonder why they did such a shoddy job. Because if they hadn't done such a shoddy job, we

might not have known. Because they left some she's up. And so some of the later scholars, they saw the sign saying, you know, Armourne is satisfied by her monuments. They were thinking, who's the her? I thought it was a king. And I wonder, was it just because the builders were too afraid to scrub off the

beautiful, incredible, the great, powerful queen because she could curse them. Or did they just not really get paid enough and they knocked off early for lunch and they left all these sort of outlines there? And that's why we know if they'd done a better job of scrubbing off the images of Hatshepsuit, the king, the great person, the person working with the gods, if they done a better job, we would never have known about her. And so maybe there were other great queens before her, after her great pharaohs, great female kings, that were simply erased from history. It's very interesting reading the book because there are lots of people in it who, you know, we may be familiar with from school, I'm thinking, you know, the Catherine of Aragon and Berlin. But you managed to bring in quite a lot of detail about them that makes you kind of imagine what it was like to be them.

Catherine of Aragon, for example, incredibly intelligent woman and really, fought for her position. She is, she should have been Queen Magnent. I mean, really, she does have a claim to the throne. She does, she is, she'll have a very light claim to the throne. She's the daughter of the Queen of Spain. She is powerful, a great speaker. She's much better at waging war than Henry. He's totally hopeless. And she, I mean, I'm a big supporter of the Scots, but when she has to fight against the Scots, it's a cataclysmic victory. So Catherine of of Aragon is this great queen. And when she has to fight for her position, Henry says, oh, if you wouldn't mind, let's just abandon the marriage.

And you can choose where you live. And she shocks everyone, this male-dominated society by saying, no, my marriage was valid. It is valid. It can't be annulled. We sometimes say that Catherine of Aragon is divorced, beheaded died. But being divorced would have been a kindness to Catherine of Aragon, essentially. Sounds odd for me to say that. But to be said, yes, our marriage was valid.

We lived together, but now it is over. That is much better than what Henry VIII does, which is saying, We were never married. We were always living in sin. You were the legal wife of my brother and abandoned the whole thing. And our child is illegitimate, which is brutal and cruel. She fights back. She stands up for herself. And I think that, yes, it might be seen as a Pyrick victory, but it's not because it changes the whole of society. Catherine of Aragon. We often see it as Catherine versus Anne. Anne is dull. Anne is fun and beautiful. Catherine is dull. But really, you know, they are. standing up for the position of the consort. They are saying she is a powerful figure at court. She can't just be set aside. Catherine of Aragon does it. And then also Anne Boleyn does it too. Because even in her short time as queen, less than three years, she stands up to Henry about the monastery. She said they should go to charitable causes, not to you and your mates and your pockets.

And Henry doesn't like that. But he wants the consort reduced. And it's very interesting because when he marries wife number three, Jane Seymour, she tries to supplicate, which is what Queen should do. Throughout history, queens can consorts, their job is to supplicate with the King. She tries to do it, and Henry says, oh, don't do that, because you know what happened to the others. It's brutal. And that, you know, Catherine of Aragon,

such a powerful, powerful queen, and she would be much better on the throne than Henry. I'm just saying it now. There's so much to talk about, but we're running out of time. I just want to get this final point in. You say the constitutional monarchy, essentially the removal of power from royals,

speeds up during the time of Queens. Why is that? We see it happening in the reign of Elizabeth I, Gloriana, those fantastic portraits. They are a woman who power is being taken from her. Parliament is constantly pressing her, constantly pressing her to obey. And she resists, but still Parliament gains power. And then we see it again in the reign of Victoria, who starts out really trying to impose her will and it's made very clear.

She cannot impose her will. It's often said, isn't it, that the homosexuality between women was not on the statute book because Victoria would be too shocked. That's not the case. She didn't have any power over laws. It was just that the men making laws didn't want to give women any ideas about loving women rather than men. And so we see this progression in Victoria and then in Elizabeth II. Now, constitutional monarchy is a great thing. That's what most of us would say we prefer. We want the monarch to be a figurehead, nothing more. But it's fascinating that we see a fast progression in the reign of women.

And I think it is because they are naturally excluded from the man's world. Elizabeth I caught Elizabeth I could not be in the meetings of the Privy Council. They do matters behind her back, including facilitating the execution of Mo Queen of Scots. Same for Victoria. She actually writes to ambassadors' wives and women on the ground in another place saying, what's really going on. And with Elizabeth II, Elizabeth II comes to the throne in a man's world. She's born, when Elizabeth 2nd is born in 1926, not all women have the vote.

And there are so few women in the world in which she lives. And so we see, I think, the male powers of, I think, allow one woman to be there, but close down around her. And, you know, you can't do too much for a woman if you're a female queen. It's always an interesting irony to be that Queen Victoria said she hated votes for women. It was a real folly. But she was used by the suffragettes as an example. of, they said, well, you say women can't understand politics. Look at the Queen. So what she never wanted, whether, what she never wanted, she became sort of totem for it. Kate, it's wonderful to speak to you.

And Kate Williams' book, Regina, a new history of women and power is out today. I just want to get a couple of your comments in about your neighbours and cohabiting. This person says, listening to the piece about communal living with other women, really enjoying it, but got very disheartened when it was are recommended to do this before you're 50. I'm 68 fit and raring to go, so please don't count us out. Thank you very much for all your comments today on that. Join me again. Tomorrow for Women's Hour will be hearing from Hannah Murray, who found fame a decade ago playing Cassie and E4's teen drama Skins and starred in Game of Thrones. She'll be talking about her new memoir, which reflects on her bipolar diagnosis and a turbulent time in her life. But for now, thank you very much

for listening and please do join me again tomorrow at 10 if you can. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, it is Danny Robbins here for years now on uncanny. We have explored real people's potentially paranormal experiences. But one thing that listeners have often asked me is why don't we look at supernatural cases from the past? Well, you asked and we listened. Our new series, Uncanny Cold Cases, takes a deep dive into some of these stories from the most haunted house in England to the original UFO abduction case. Can we make sense of these strange stories that have haunted history? Uncanny, cold cases.

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