Woman's Hour - Alabama IVF, Porn series, Tattoos

Episode Date: February 29, 2024

Both Republicans and Democrats in the US state of Alabama are trying to find a legal solution that would protect access to IVF treatment, after a court ruling cast doubt on its future. Alabama's Supreme Court ruled earlier this month that frozen embryos have the same rights as children. Jenny Kleeman speaks to lawyer Eric Wrubel, who specialises in fertility law and Kristia Rumbley who has three frozen embryos at a fertility clinic in Alabama.How is porn shaping our sex lives? In a new Woman’s Hour series we want to start an honest conversation about how the availability and content of porn affects what we do, how we feel and what we expect. Today, our reporter Ena Miller talks to a woman who had to decide where the line was for her around her husband's porn use. Is the boys' club in tattooing over? A new book, Tattoo You, celebrates the most innovate and trailblazing tattoo artists from across the world – two thirds of which are women, non-binary and trans artists. Tattoo expert Alice Snape and tattoo artist Tanya Buxton discuss shifts in the industry and the future of tattooing.The tale of the relationship between actress Tippi Hedren and director Alfred Hitchcock is told as part of a new play, Double Feature. In her memoir, Tippi accused Hitchcock of sexual assault. Joanna Vanderham, who plays Tippi, and Helen O’Hara, a film critic, join Jenny to explore how the play portrays that tumultuous relationship. Presenter: Jenny Kleeman Producer: Emma Pearce Reporter: Ena Miller

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. It's great to be in your company this morning. Today we're going to have the kind of conversation I think you couldn't really hear anywhere else but on Woman's Hour. Porn is everywhere, in our pockets, on our phones, and often in our relationships. Our new series on porn sets out to explore the impact, good and bad, that it's having on our lives, our sex lives, and on how we relate to our partners. We want to have a frank, honest conversation about this. And of course, I want to hear from you.

How has your life been affected by porn? Can it be a positive thing? Has it changed the way you view your sexuality or your body? And has it affected your relationships? Get in touch. You don't have to give your real name, of course. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC

Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider, so you might want to keep an eye on that. We'll use Wi-Fi if you can. Terms and conditions can be found on our website. Also on the programme, tattoos. What was once a subculture has now gone mainstream, with more women than men getting inked.

We'll look at whether what some have called the tattooing boys club is finally over. And the dark power dynamic between Hollywood stars of the 1960s and their directors will be speaking to the star of a new play that explores the fraught relationship between Alfred Hitchcock and his one-time muse, Tippi Hedren. But first, you may have heard the news that Alabama's Supreme Court ruled earlier this month that frozen embryos have the same rights as children. It was a controversial decision, especially in the build-up to the presidential election, which we'll get to later.

Meanwhile, France is preparing to enshrine abortion as a constitutional right as early as next week, where lawmakers argued that it was necessary as abortion rights are being rolled back in the US and other European countries like Hungary and Poland. Now, of course, discussion about abortion, it's a topic that elicits strong feelings on all sides. However, today we are focusing specifically on this Alabama ruling and what it could mean for women in the US. We'll hear shortly from one woman in Alabama who will tell us about her experience in the state. She has been through IVF treatment and still has three embryos frozen at a local fertility clinic. But first, I'm joined by the lawyer Eric Rubel, who specialises in fertility law. Good morning, Eric, and thank you so much for getting up so early from us. You're in New York, so we really appreciate it. Thank you.

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Now, Eric, is this Alabama ruling a consequence of the overturning of Roe versus Wade? Remind our listeners how that overturning came about. So it is absolutely an outgrowth of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, largely because Alabama was one of those states that had a trigger law. And the trigger law was that once Roe v. Wade was overturned, Alabama now had their own law on abortion, and it was much more stringent. In addition, some states had definitions of life. And those definitions now are coming into play with the

civil litigations. The determination of life could be as early as the fertilization of an egg with a sperm and that's what we're seeing now. So this ruling is the consequence of a civil case. Explain what happened there because it's quite an extraordinary story. There was an accident in a fertility clinic. Yes. So there was a fertility clinic in a hospital and there are three sets of plaintiffs who are couples who had gone through IVF at the clinic and their embryos were stored in the cryopreservation unit in a separate area of the clinic. Someone from the hospital, a patient, managed to get into the cryopreservation unit, opened it, and took out the vials, which are at a temperature of

way below zero, which when you grab it, it's painful. The person dropped several vials of the embryos, and that was the end of those embryos. So the three sets of plaintiffs sued the fertility clinic, and one of their claims was not just the loss of property, which would be the normal claim and negligence, but also this 1872 statute of a wrongful death of a minor, and that is a child. So this ruling, by coming to the conclusion that in this particular case, destroying these embryos was the wrongful death of a minor, Now, all embryos in Alabama are defined as

minors. Correct. All embryos, whatever state they're in, are now a child. And it's really quite fascinating when you read the decision, the majority opinion, because the writing is on the wall on the first page of this decision where it says the question is whether is the death of an embryo kept in a cryogenic nursery. I've never heard the word cryogenic nursery. I mean, once you saw those few words together, you knew where the court was going in its decision. There was some quite extraordinary wording from the court. In Alabama, the chief, Justice Parker, he invoked the Bible in explaining his decision. I mean, what do you think about that as a lawyer?

How common is that in the US? In my close to 30 years of practice, I've never seen the Bible quoted as a legal authority in which to base a decision especially in a in a civil complaint case um but he goes back to as far as aquinas and and really just you know is quoting at length um the ten commandments and etc. So it gives you a perspective of where they're coming from and where this judge was coming from. And precedent and law, really the civil law, the law of the states really had nothing to do with his decision.

So what does this decision mean practically for clinics and for their patients? Well, we saw what it means for the clinics. They've shut down. They won't, you know, continue doing procedures creating embryos. Some of those clinics said that they would do some, you know, egg retrievals, but the clinics don't want to take the risk of having these lawsuits. And so they've stopped the IVF process until such time as they can go forward safely. I think what you'll also see is intended parents who have created embryos taking their embryos out of the state. I mean, that's what they should do is remove them to safeguard them. Well, let's hear now from somebody who plans to do just that. I have been speaking to Chrystia Rumbly, who has three frozen embryos at a fertility clinic in Alabama.

I started by asking why she decided to have IVF treatment in the first place. We had our first son with no issue at all. And so we were quite surprised to find that we could not get pregnant again after that. So we, after a year of trying, we went to a specialist. We tried a bunch of different methods, you know, different medications, IUIs, nothing was successful. And so after about a year of that, we eventually decided to try IVF. It seemed our best course of action. It's an expensive process. And so we knew we only had one shot at it. And we were fortunate enough to get six healthy embryos. And we transferred two immediately and both worked, which we were not expecting, but we were happy.

And we got twins from that. A few years later, we froze all of the embryos at that time. And a few years later, we thawed one and had another one. And now we have an almost two-year-old. So you have four children now. Yes, four boys. And three embryos still in storage. And how long have they been frozen there? About eight years. So what was your reaction when Alabama Supreme Court ruled that they were going to treat frozen embryos as unborn living children? I wasn't surprised.

Since Roe was overturned, we had been watching for legislative action to come from the state. So we already had a plan in place to move our embryos in that event, which can be a little risky to move them. It can be expensive. I love the clinic I'm at. It's not something I necessarily wanted to do, but we thought we would have some time once they presented a bill for it. So when they overturned the court case, that caught us by surprise. We weren't expecting that at all. So I was angry, mostly at the way they did it, and frustrated, and a little bit panicked because we didn't have the time we thought we would have.

So spell it out for our listeners. What does this actually mean for you in practical terms? I'm fortunate enough that we're finished growing our family. We don't want to have more kids. And it's hard to explain if you haven't been through it. Trying to get pregnant in itself is stressful enough. Infertility adds another layer to it. IVF is very controlled. And there's not much of it that you just feel completely out of control. There's nothing you can do.

And so we knew we wanted to have another child after our twins were born. So we held on to them for a bit. He's only two now, like I said. And we just haven't decided how we want to move forward with our frozen embryos. While we don't believe they're children, they are important to us. They're potential children. They're potential siblings to our kids. They're hope. And it's not something that you can just dispose of or donate without being completely certain that that's where your heart is. So while our plan is certainly to end up donating them for

research, I can't do that until I'm emotionally ready to do it because I feel like it's something I would regret if I wasn't ready to. So it just leaves me in a place where I'm emotionally ready to do it because I feel like it's something I would regret if I wasn't ready to. So it just leaves me in a place where I'm being forced to make a quick decision to spend more money on transporting embryos, going to a more expensive clinic, and continuing to pay for them every year, which I would have had to do anyway. But the new clinic is significantly more expensive, all because I'm not ready to make my own decision. You might not think of your embryos as children, but the state of Alabama does. And if you transport them and something goes wrong in the transportation,

or there's a problem with the freezing process, you will be liable or the person transporting them will be liable, the same as if a child had died as a consequence of negligence. So can you transport them? I can. It is a risk. I think it's a small risk. We have found a third-party company, finally, who would agree to do it. And our clinic has agreed to release them. But yeah, it's a risk. If anything goes wrong, then we're criminally liable for it. I could go to jail for moving petri dishes of cells. Of your own embryos. And then there's also the question of

neglect as well, because if they're classed as children, you could also potentially be legally responsible if you neglect them. And what constitutes neglect in this situation? You know, who knows? They haven't answered that. They could constitute neglect as freezing them for eight years. And because there is the practice here of donating embryos to other couples, it's a concern of mine that the state could step in and take them and donate them to another family without our permission. They can step in and take our kids if they think we're neglecting them. So why couldn't they step in and take these embryos? It must be a very confusing, if not terrifying time for people who've had IVF in Alabama. It is. And we're fortunate enough that we're not in the middle of the process.

I know women who have already spent the money, who have already gone through part of the process, and it is not easy on your body. It's dangerous. It's not something that not easy on your body. It's dangerous. It's not something that's easy to go through. It's not something that people take lightly. So it's even more difficult, I feel like, for them. Do you worry that other people in Alabama will no longer be able to create their families because of this ruling, will not be able to embark on IVF at all because of the practical considerations that hospitals won't want to be held liable if anything happens to embryos and parents won't want to be held liable if they're found to be responsible for damage to an embryo.

If nothing changes in the way the law is right now, then yes, I don't believe the practice will be able to continue. I think women will have to go out of state, so incur an even further expense. There has been a bill presented that would protect IVF. Unfortunately, it wouldn't overturn the ruling, though, so you're still going to have problems in the law that still state that they're alive. So while it protects IVF itself, I'm not sure how far those protections would reach. I think the only way to really make it safe would be to completely overturn the ruling.

This is something that clearly is going to be discussed and debated over the days, weeks, months to come. We're all waiting to see how this plays out. But if you have fertility issues, time isn't on your side, is it? You know, if you're trying to undergo fertility treatment. As someone who's gone through all of this, is this a frightening time for women who want to get pregnant through IVF in the USA? I think very much. You know, I'm 44 now and just now finished having my last child. I never anticipated being

quite this old, you know, when I decided to finish having children. And if there are women who are older than me who still haven't been able to have their first yet, and the longer they wait, the riskier it is on their bodies, the riskier it is to have a healthy egg. So I'm sure it's very frightening for them. They're probably anticipating losing that dream and just not being able to have children. That was Chrystia Rumbly, an IVF patient from Alabama. And Eric, what's your reaction to hearing that?

Is Chrystia right to be frightened for herself and for women like her? Oh, spot on. Everything that she raised from moving the embryos and the time not being on your side, these are all concerns, and rightly so. I mean, even the idea of neglect is something that is, I had not thought of, but is absolutely true. I think that the one thing that is I had not thought of but is absolutely true.

I think that the one thing that we're going to that is really at risk is the embryos themselves and what is being transferred according to the chief judge. He thinks that one embryo should be created at a time and then one transferred. Then why would you need to do any PGD testing? You would never test for defects, genetic defects to the embryos. And so you'd be transferring an embryo blindly. Yes. It would make no sense. And of course, that's generally just how, that's not how IVF works. Eric, I mean, Christian mentioned both Republicans and Democrats are trying to push bills that would protect IVF. Hopefully there will be a way forward in all of this. But how

is this as an issue playing as a feature of the presidential election later this year? Well, shockingly, President Trump came out in favor of protecting IVF and the rights. Of course, President Biden is pro-choice in protecting those rights for women to procreate and to create their families in their own ways. So it's going to be a definitely front and center as another personal rights issue in the election. And I think, you know, certain states are going to have to make choices about how they're going to treat women in their states. Well, we will keep an eye on how this plays out. Thank you so much. That was Eric Rubel, Eric Rubel,

co-chair of the Fertility Law Group at the law firm Warshaw Burstein in New York. And earlier we heard from Chrystia Rumley, an IVF patient from Alabama. Now, yesterday, Emma spoke to Baroness Gabby Burton,

the woman leading the independent pornography review for the government, looking at the legislative and regulatory framework around pornography. You can listen back to that on BBC Sounds, of course. Today, we want to start an honest and frank conversation about porn and how it affects you. We're going to spotlight personal experience and the impact pornography has had or is having on your real life relationships. You've kindly already been getting in touch about this. We're going to go through some of your contributions shortly.

But first, we're going to hear from Joanna. It's not her real name. She's in her 30s and she believes that her partner's porn use shaped their sex life and relationship in lots of ways. Enna Miller asked Joanna about the first time she encountered porn. I think I was 14, I was in high school. I'd walked home with a boy I really fancied. I was in his bedroom and we were looking for a Michael Jackson cassette and under the bed I found this magazine and I opened it

and there was like this full page spread of a woman with her legs spread apart. I guess it made me really uncomfortable. What was it about it that made you uncomfortable? Being 14, all you get is a bit of sex ed at school. There was this cartoon of a man and a woman having sex, presumably for reproduction. And they were literally line drawings of the man on top of the woman. He was moving, she was still. And I remember so distinctly my teacher saying, if you like the person you're with, it can be enjoyable. And I was like, no, that I've just seen could be pleasurable.

I don't get it. And the constant descriptions of the vagina being like a passageway for babies to come out of and penises to go in. I was just like, that's not how I see my body. It's really daunting. And I remember I got bullied in school and I remember a boy just kind of pointing at me saying haha I can't imagine you having sex haha and I thought neither can I mate so yeah I think sex education could have been better it could have been about mutual exploration I guess when you got older, did you watch porn yourself? I had a sexual relationship when I was in college with a friend and that was brilliant. And I wish everyone's first experience was as healthy and as equal and as fun.

And that should be the norm. What made it equal and fun and healthy? The lack of porn made it more natural. We weren't doing penis in vagina sex. So I guess we were just doing what felt good. We didn't have like an end goal like oh we've got to have fulfillment. It just happened for as long as we decided it happened for and there was no performance. I don't think we were preoccupied too much with what we look like or all of that baggage that can come with sex. And then you met a partner that that baggage came with sex. I met a man in a mutual sort of social circle and I just thought he was so confident.

And I remember the first time we had sex, he kind of asked, what isn't okay? And I suppose that's his way of getting consent but the way it was worded made me feel a bit bewildered because what do you say to that now I'd have loads of answers strangling's not okay and physically hurting me is not okay yeah I was just out of my depth I guess you did say to me that you did have a good sex life with him yeah I thought we had a great sex life fun and pleasurable and he had talked about porn and said oh let's watch some together and he got this dvd and I can't remember the storyline it was some like woman next door type storyline it was quite banal compared to the hardcore pornography that's out there now. But yeah, we watched it and it didn't really do anything for me.

I guess he really wanted me to like it. He wanted to have that as part of his sex life with his partner to spice it up. So then when did it change? Did he change or did you change? The first time I found out he was watching pornography, I had to use his phone to reply to somebody and I put a kiss and the letter I put in just came up with this name of a porn site and then we had a conversation about what are you watching when are you watching how much are you watching and I guess he felt

really ambushed and invaded and defensive and saying he didn't think it was a problem that everybody did it then I just got so paranoid and so suspicious and I wanted to know the truth there was this whole thing going on that I'd been oblivious to that really worried me and when I looked at his phone and I saw the extent of it it was so so often, it was like multiple times a week, even a day. It made me wonder whether he was looking at younger girls slash women because those women are fertile and there's something biological there, or if it's just those women are vulnerable. I'm wondering how him watching porn crossed over to your intimacy. I think the impact of porn is just you can't take it out of the sex life we had.

I think it's so inextricably linked because porn had been part of all of his adult life, longer than sex had, more than sex had. There's things that happen in porn that he'd seen and wanted to try with me. I guess there's positions he'd suggested and obviously they were probably coming from porn because they certainly don't teach you many positions in sex ed and I don't think you tend to have conversations with your parents about specifics. I think I was so naive I just assumed that what we were trying was things he'd tried and would say, oh, other women like this, that and the other.

He was suggesting things I had nothing to suggest. Were there other moments that sprung to mind that made you just think, whoa? He made a big thing of birthdays anyway. On his birthday, he'd be like, oh, can we try anal sex? And I was like, okay. And it was just really, really really painful and I derived no pleasure from that and he did he would lose sense of what my experience was and it became a very absorbed selfish act so I suppose you end up feeling used and it becomes a bit of a battleground of,

oh, I want this, you won't do it, why not? Maybe you feel like there's something wrong with you. I think as women, we are often socialised to be really super considerate to the point we're worrying about how our body looks, even when we're meant to be enjoying things, we're worried about how we smell, we're worried about how we taste. It's just a constant all these adverts making us feel less than um is him having all these desires and wants

and what he wants to do would you class that as experience he seemed quite clear on what he wanted in many areas of life and i think that's quite sexy being so assured and maybe I was just going with the flow of it and what are the things that he was asking you to do that I guess were sort of okay and then you must have hit something that you were like nah I'm not really happy with this some of the types of BDSM and the dominance and submission and I suppose if I'd have been wanting to be dominant he'd have been open for that but I didn't feel like doing that I just thought it was a bit embarrassing and a bit cringe to try and pretend to perform in a dominant role it just wasn't me and he was asking you to be something that you weren't? I suppose he was putting options

on the table and I wasn't really into it and we were just trying to make it work. I'd really learned what was in porn. I'd learned that there were categories based on race, based on age, based on all these criteria that is like you're ordering a pizza and I suppose you think how much time has he spent watching this in the years that have gone by and how much has that got in his head and how desensitized to these really violent acts often these different far-fetched scenarios that men like to fantasize about that probably does make them view you differently makes them focus on your like orifices pressure to remove pubic hair I did go along with it I did do it and I didn't feel fully myself it didn't feel genuine I'd say to anyone oh I chose to do it nobody was holding a razor

up to my body I was deliberately removing it but it didn't feel good and he wasn't doing anything he didn't have to do any grooming for me to like him so I think there's a big double standard I was always concerned he was watching porn when I was out. I'd be going and doing feminist activism. I'd be trying to end the porn industry. Meanwhile, he's part of it. And he's saying, I'm not paying for it. So I'm not really creating the demand. But he was the demand. I guess if you were criticizing something that he enjoyed doing, you were shaming him? Yeah, I guess he's saying oh it's fantasy it's not real and I was like those women are real he kept talking about individual choice that was part of his philosophy so I was like okay so could you make the choice to not watch it and he felt

controlled so he was saying oh I don't want to be a sex pest nagging you for sex I'd rather just meet my own needs and we can have sex together when we want to but that wasn't a solution for me I wanted sex with him but it tainted it for me I had no problems with masturbation but I think that takes more imagination and the more you've been watching pornography the more extreme things you need to make it work as quickly as possible and I think he said or if I'm stressed at work whatever I was like there's other coping mechanisms for stress you can go to the gym you can talk to somebody you can go for a walk when you go back to seeing the stuff that he was watching

and knowing the person that he was could you reconcile the two of them? I think if you know your partner's watching people who are being traumatized and they're watching that and they're getting sexual pleasure from that, how does that stack up? Cognitive dissonance, just thinking, how can you be proud of your partner? How can you be proud of your relationship when there's this darkness to it that felt like I had to keep secrets for him and it got to the point where I said I can't go on like this we've got to do something we're gonna have to go to some counseling he suggested we could make some stuff that he could then watch and then that might

be better than watching unknown women and I actually got to the point where I even said I would rather you have sex with an actual other woman in real life opening up the relationship would be preferable to living with porn which to some people probably sounds quite incomprehensible but I was just so adamant that I couldn't cope with this porn use it was really eating away at me when you suggested that you can basically go and sleep with another woman what did he say to that maybe that surprised him i guess surprised you saying it i guess we had an agreement in theory that i could have sex with another woman but that wasn't something i ever did i wonder whether that came from porn this idea that

relationships between women are quite sexy and not very serious and not that disruptive and this one dick policy as it's called that again didn't feel me you eventually thought why should you keep it a secret and you spoke to his mum? wouldn't realize this was going on and his family was really hoping that we might get married and start a family and I got so sick of the expectations that relationships naturally progress in this way that I just said I don't like his porn use. Porn's pretense and I wasn't gonna pretend. What did his mum say? I guess I was hoping I'd get some backup. I think mums tend to support their sons. And I think conversations tend to be quite superficial around that topic.

You told your dad? Yeah, I told my family that there were relationship problems. And obviously they ask what they are. So I was just honest. I thought, why should I make up some excuse when the real issue seemed to me was that he was watching porn? Was he frustrated by you? What was his viewpoint on you? Really frustrated and angry that I was interfering in his private life and telling him what to do and suggesting he was a bad person for doing it. I think he felt, oh, other people have

girlfriends that aren't bothered and here I am, I've got a difficult relationship and why can't and he was a bad person for doing it. I think he felt, oh, other people have girlfriends that aren't bothered and here I am, I've got a difficult relationship. Why can't she just be more easygoing about this? Now you've moved on to your new relationship. Have you discussed porn? How was that? When do you discuss porn, actually?

Have you learned when you discuss porn? In the new relationship, I think I discussed it on the first date. How would you know who's going to be watching what? And that's why you actually just have to ask them. And I think you've got to be prepared for the answer if you're asking somebody. You've got to be able to accept the response. Sometimes people see porn as fun.

It spices up our love life. It brings us together. I think a lot of the things that are meant to bring you together, they would be things that are personal. And buying red lacy knickers or buying a black lacy bra or buying some handcuffs is just somebody that some manufacturer has manufactured in a mass market. It's like anything that's off the shelf, off the peg. It's not going to do anything for your relationship. It's just going to set this blueprint and put you in this box that you're always going to feel a bit like, is this me? Is this us? Are we replicating something here or are we forging our own path? And I think porn prevents you from pursuing the potential that's there. Anna Miller was talking to Joanna there,

and we'd be really keen to hear from you. Perhaps you're a woman who enjoys porn alone or with a partner. Maybe it saved or rekindled a relationship or possibly undermined or even destroyed your intimate time as a couple. Lots of people have been getting in touch with us about this. One person hasn't left their name. Fine not to leave your name. Saying, in the start, I thought I was not meant to have any preferences or boundaries, just like in porn. I got a back injury during sex in my late teens because I thought I was not allowed to say stop. It hurts. Ethel says, I'm totally anti-porn, but pro-sex. I've watched about 10 minutes of porn

in my whole life and even that has impacted my perspective of sex. Sex for me is about connection, respect and pleasure. But it seems that for those who watch porn, it's about power and submission, shame and various guises of misogyny. Another listener gets in touch to say, my partner and I used to enjoy watching porn together and we used to experiment after watching it. Unfortunately, she died in 2013. I haven't felt like starting another relationship as I feel I'll never find another like her. She was the love of my life. I'm 80 now and I watch porn to remind me how great our sex life was and how much we enjoyed watching it together.

So do keep in touch with us. You can contact us anonymously, as I said, if you like, via WhatsApp or on social media. We are at BBC Women's Hour. Next time, Enna talks to a woman who was initially keen to please her partners when they asked for roleplay influenced by porn. Now she's older, she's asking how a sexually curious woman like her

can find pleasure and connection without being influenced by porn. Now, in Britain, a quarter of us now have a tattoo, with more women than men choosing to get one. It's a billion-dollar industry globally and has a history spanning over 7,000 years. But historically, it's been the male tattoo artists and wearers who've dominated the narrative. Now is what some call the tattooing boys club finally getting disbanded? A new book, Tattoo You, celebrates the trailblazing artists who are transforming a subculture into popular culture and looks at what's changed within the tattoo industry today.

I'm joined now by one of the tattoo artists featured in the book, Tanya Buxton, owner of Paradise Tattoo Studio in Cheltenham, and by Alice Snape, journalist and tattoo expert. Welcome to the programme, both of you. Hi, thank you for having us. Alice, I'm going to start with you. More women are getting tattoos. Why do you think that is? What I personally love about tattooing, I think lots of women often feel like they're not in control of what they look like. They feel like their bodies change and as they age, they feel like they want to take some control and power over what their body looks like. And a tattoo is a really absolutely amazing way to do that.

I personally, I just got my chest tattooed. I got it done to mark my 40th birthday. And I just love that it kind of makes you question traditional notions of what women's bodies should look like and it's just a really empowering thing to do. Because it's about taking ownership of your body. Yeah absolutely. Now of course whenever we talk about tattoos or perhaps in the past when we talked about tattoos we would always have to say some people love them some people hate them. Are there some people who will never get tattoos or is that shifting now that so many of us have one I think some people maybe think that tattooing

wasn't for them so maybe 20 years ago when I first started getting tattoos I think there was a very like boys club mentality like oh it was tattooing was for men. Lots of the shops were owned and ran by men. So when you walked into them, you'd instantly feel unwelcome. I remember going, when I first started thinking about getting tattooed, I'd walk into a shop and I'd made, I'd be made to feel like I didn't belong in there.

And anyone who wasn't tattooed, you felt almost felt like you had to earn the right to be there and prove that you really wanted that tattoo and that's something that's really changed in the past decade so all of those people who maybe thought the world wasn't welcoming for them there's now spaces that are specifically for women for queer people for black and brown people and so that they're finally feeling like they're welcomed into this world that previously felt so closed. And it was previously thought of as quite a transgressive thing to do, getting a tattoo.

Do you think that's still the case? Is it still an act of transgression? I personally think it still is. I think that what ends up on your body is permanent and the process of getting tattooed is you have to put complete trust in the tattoo artist that you've picked and obviously it's a painful process so I think there's still an element of transgression there and I think for some people there is still they've maybe they've still tied to old misconceptions that women who get tattoos are sluts or easy. I even bumped into an ex-boyfriend about a few years ago who was like, what are you, good girl gone bad?

I was like, no, that's ridiculous. Where have you got that from? But yeah, the book Tattoo You, you've written the introduction to the book. And Tanya, your work is featured in the book. And it's a beautiful book. It looks like a kind of coffee table book, like a book you would get of an artist. And that's a kind of deliberate thing, isn't it? In your introduction, you talk about the ideas of tattoos as art,

but not like canvas on a wall. Explain what you mean by that. So this was actually a conversation that came up with one of the tattoo artists who I interviewed for the book, Ange Deadbird Flying, and they came from a very fine art background. So all the work that they uh they create is uh it's like a collaboration between the wearer and the artist and when i mentioned the word canvas she resolutely refused to use that word when it comes to a body because it implies some kind of passivity and a body by you you know the there is an element of

choice and it's a collaboration between the both so canvas I and I'd always used the word I'd always said oh yeah my body is a canvas just like a throwaway thing but actually when you really unpick what a canvas means your body can't be a canvas. Tanya, I want to come to you because your work, your tattoos are certainly works of art, maybe less traditional. A lot of your work is tattooing over scars and you're known for incredibly, I saw it in the book and I couldn't believe it wasn't a photograph, incredibly lifelike areola tattoos. That's the area around the the nipple how did you get into doing that the so the medical tattoo in which is sort of most widely known for the 3d nipple tattoo in um came as a progression of my career really so I started tattooing about 15

years ago doing normal tattoos if you like so body art tattoos and I was always very aware and involved with you know the sort of healing powers of tattoos and you know the empowering element of it and how it can uplift people and make them feel more confident again in their skin I've worked with scars throughout my whole career and then I progressed into cosmetic tattooing. So I started tattooing eyebrows, eyeliner, lips, what they call permanent makeup. And that opened me up to a whole world of clientele that wouldn't necessarily come to a tattoo studio. It seemed more of a beauty treatment. And just from that, just meeting all sorts of walks of life through doing the cosmetic and all these

specialized cases were coming through you know people that had alopecia and maybe wanted their eyebrows tattooed on or were caught in a house fire and had lost eyebrows or you know lips or facial parts like from burns and stuff and that was just how the the nipple tattooing all it all kind of progressed from there I started working a lot closer with the breast cancer community and the transgender community and it just spiraled to be honest yeah so it's kind of tattooing also as a form of therapy we've got uh we've got a lovely message here from biddy who says i got my first tattoo as a 75th birthday gift to myself after my husband died i did it as a rite of passage to mark my change in status women tend to be custodians of our family history part of this responsibility

is to mark such rites of passage thanks to lovely samantha the amazing artist who inked my ankle it was a gloriously fun, womanly experience. Oh, that's amazing. And I think that's the thing with tattoos, isn't it? Like, it can mark, like, you know, a life event or, you know, a certain moment in time. You know, I've got tattoos that are very meaningful. I've also got tattoos that are just dead funny.

They just remind me of that moment in time. Well, tell me about that. Which tattoos? What's your funniest tattoo? We had a little look in the green room I have a watermelon caricature who is dressed up as George Michael from the club tropicana video and does that have any profound meaning or is it just there to make you smile I just love George Michael and everyone smiled when you went to out. Anything tropical. Hence the name Paradise for my studio.

But on the flip side of that, there's these, you know, incredible life-changing tattoos when it comes to the nipple tattoos. And, you know, not only is it giving a person a piece of themselves back, it really is closing like a chapter for them and an opening a new chapter you know feeling more complete more confident and and celebrating life again is what we're seeing now another example of kind of the internet opening up subcultures that people are finding their first tattoo on instagram rather than having to walk into a shop and and not having to pluck up the courage necessarily. Yeah, I think before this past decade, the industry felt very gate-kept. So only certain people could learn to tattoo.

You could only discover portfolios by actually going into the shop or picking up a tattoo magazine, which was generally aimed at men, like there'd be a naked woman on the cover and it'd be heavily male artists. So Instagram has opened portfolios up to people all over the world. So you don't have to just go to your local shop anymore. You can find the right artist for you and go to these amazing inclusive spaces like Tanya's studio

and feel like you belong there. Social media has changed everything like when I first started tattooing Instagram wasn't around yeah it makes me feel like a dinosaur and it has changed everything and it does open you up to a whole world of people it's like your Instagram page is like your own little business page sort of thing. But also there are old fashioned things like books if you want to get inspiration. And the book is beautiful. The book is called Tattoo You, A Next Generation of Artists. It's out now. Tanya Buxton, Alice Snape, thank you so much.

Thank you. Lots of messages coming in about porn. I'll share a couple of them with you. Somebody doesn't leave their name. It says, I'm a 42-year-old single mum of three young children. I've been on my own for a year now and I really miss male company sometimes. I tried using dating sites, but when men ask what my plans are for the weekend, the days are taken up by looking after my kids.

So I've decided that watching porn is the only way for me to get some sexual satisfaction unless I meet someone on the rare occasion I do go out and have a one night stand I don't know how I can build my relationship with someone new as a mum another message here I have personally experienced the negative side of porn my ex-husband turned to porn regularly instead of being intimate with me. When I protested, emotionally communicating how it was affecting me and our relationship, he told me it was normal for guys to watch porn and that I should get used to it. Keep those messages coming. You can message us at BBC Women's Hour and you can also reach us on WhatsApp. Now, the darker side of 1960s Hollywood and the power dynamic between director and lead actor is explored in a new play at Hampstead Theatre in London. Double Feature tells the stories of two relationships, one of director Michael Reeves and actor Vincent Price, the other Alfred Hitchcock and his one time muse, Tippi Hedren.

Hitchcock discovered Tippi Hedren when he saw her in a commercial in 1961. She went on to star as his leading lady in two of his biggest films, The Birds and Marnie. But their relationship ended suddenly, and there are differing explanations as to why. Tippi alleges that he sexually assaulted her, an allegation that was only made public after Hitchcock's death. Joining me now are Joanna Vanderham, who plays Tippi in the play, and Helen O'Hara, a film critic who has written about the relationship between Tippi and Hitchcock in her book, Women vs. Hollywood.

Welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you so much. Joanna, if I could come to you first. For listeners who don't know Tippi Hedren, tell us about her. What kind of actress, what kind of woman was she? Well, I mean, to me, she's become fascinating. I think when you get into a role, you have to become kind of obsessed with the person that you're playing. And as you mentioned, she was sort of discovered by Hitchcock.

And she had been a model previously. And he saw her in a commercial and she got a call saying you know this this director wants to meet you and no one would tell her who it was so she went to the studio and still didn't know who it was and was presented with a contract that said well you know sign this this personal contract. And it was only after she'd signed the contract that it was revealed that it was Alfred Hitchcock. So what an odd introduction to their dynamic. And I think what's really resonated with me in the play is John Logan, the writer, has described her as having a core of steel. And that feels very evident. You

watch the screen test that she did with Hitchcock before he decided to cast her in The Birds. And you can see that she has boundaries. She has a self-respect. She's centered. She's composed. Yes, she wants to work in the film industry and she wants to please him. But there's a line and she knows where it is. Tippi grows throughout the play even though it's only one evening but she grows from quite a submissive person and someone who doesn't talk at length to someone more empowered someone who gives rabble-rousing speeches it's quite a subtle transition though isn't it was it difficult to play?

That's such an interesting question. We spent a lot of time in rehearsals figuring out whether her journey through the play is cause and effect, if it goes from point A to point B. And actually what we feel works best is that she's more of a yo-yo. So Hitchcock kind of sends her out and she does a little spin and then she comes back in. And that's what keeps happening.

He keeps flicking the yo-yo until the string snaps. And that's where we meet her at the end of the play. Now, Helen, let's come to you here. You've written about the relationship between Tippi Hedren and Alfred Hitchcock in your book. What did you think of how it was portrayed in the play? I thought it was fascinatingly well done. And I thought it reflected so many of those dynamics between directors and stars, not just at that time, I think, you know, it's less prevalent now,

but I think it still exists. There is this sense sometimes, especially with directors who feel like they've discovered a talent that they are therefore almost responsible, they are the one who deserves the credit for that performance or that work rather than the person who's actually done it. You know, there's this sense of being a Svengali and actually creating something from nothing. And really, you deserve all the credit. So it's a way of maintaining control. It's a way of demanding respect, demanding subservience and submission.

And yeah, just exercising power, really. Was it normal in the 1960s for actresses to be signing contracts without knowing who they were going to be working for? No, I don't think that was ever normal. And I don't think it was always normal to have a personal contract. You know, this was still in the kind of the era of the studio system where actors would sign with studios. And they might have a particular relationship with one director who liked working with them, but they were the studio's decision what to do with them.

This kind of personal contract did tend to lend itself to the kind of worst abuses. And, you know, I think the dynamic we see in the play is something that played out across a lot of personal contracts where the director would be like, you will do what I ask you to do or your career will be over. And it really was that stark. I mean, Joanna, how much courage do you think it would have taken to stand up to Alfred Hitchcock? Oh, my gosh. I mean, he was the most powerful man in Hollywood at the time. And but I think my understanding is that Tippi didn't feel like she had a choice. She had that sense of dignity and sense of self

that meant that she could walk away. And, you know, she had a daughter. And she, I think, asked herself, what type of woman do I want to be? And luckily, you know, I mean, tragically Hitchcock did keep her under personal contract for the three years after he stopped working with her. Didn't refuse any other requests

for her to work with other directors. He did try to stifle her career, but she's had the last laugh. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that, Helen. I mean, to be refused to work with Hitchcock after Marnie, and yet was held under contract, effectively it really can absolutely, as you said, it's the momentum of your career. It completely stops at stone dead. So she never really, you know, I think had the career that she deserved, you know, as a result of that, to be honest.

But you see this over and over again. This is kind of what the book was about. There are so many careers that were just stifled, stopped in their tracks, you know, into more recent times as well. Joanna, you've done Hollywood movies, you've done roles on the stage. There are many bits of the play that explicitly talk about the world of film and theatre. How much of this rang true for you today?

Yeah, it was definitely one of the biggest themes because as an actor, all the things that are mentioned in the play feel incredibly personal and relatable. And I did have to ask myself, you know, is this Tippi's emotion or is this my emotion? And you do have to kind of remove yourself from that. But ultimately, getting to explore those themes was bizarrely quite cathartic. And I've never felt like I could relate so much to

a character as this one I feel like getting to kind of share this story felt very necessary you know as Helen mentioned the times have changed but have they changed enough and I do feel like that continuing this conversation about the power dynamics and not just in film and television, but but in every industry about, you know, the the women having that sort of, you know, permission. Yeah, it's about the power dynamics which where actors are at the mercy of directors, but it can go the other way as well. I mean, what do you think about that? Do you think that there is a kind of you're locked in symbiosis with your with your director and there is always a bit of a power struggle that directors depend on actors as well? Yeah, I mean, I think the way that i work personally it's very collaborative so so i don't feel like i've had you know at least doing this

play definitely there was no kind of power struggle it was it was what what are we making together but i do also think that the male experience is different from the female experience and vincent and um michael have a unique dynamic vin Vincent Price was able to walk into that room and say, I'm leaving the picture. Tippi Hedren had to go through this torment to, and even then she didn't leave Marnie. She had to finish filming. or whether women feel like they have the voice to take that ownership and to almost demand the space. Yes, yes. Well, it's a really wonderful play.

I really enjoyed it very much. Helen O'Hara and Joanna Vanderham, thank you. And Double Feature is on at the Hampstead Theatre until the middle of March. Lots of texts coming in about porn. Somebody has said, not leaving their name, you don't have to leave your name. My former fiancé had a porn addiction

and expected me to get into the BDSM that he was watching. I felt completely out of my depth and his pressure was damaging to our relationship. That didn't last and I now have a wonderfully understanding partner. He watches porn and he is into kinks. But we are mutually respectful of our boundaries and happy to explore

our sexual tastes. It's quite funny. There's a balance, really, of opinions. Some pro-porn, some very much against it. But do keep those messages coming. We always want to hear from you.

Joining Anita tomorrow at 10, we are going to take a walk through female history, looking at 101 objects with writer Annabel Hirsch, a cabinet of curiosities ranging from the bidet to Kim Kardashian's ring. So do stay tuned for that. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, it's Amol Rajan here.

And it's Nick Robinson. And we want to tell you about the Today podcast from BBC Radio 4. Yes, this is where we go deeper into the sort of journalism that you hear on Today, exploring one big story with more space for insight and context. We hear from a key voice each week, a leader in their field, be they a spy

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