Woman's Hour - Alex Scott, Senator Jeanne Shaheen, Molly Russell inquest

Episode Date: October 4, 2022

Alex Scott is one of the most high profile names in women’s sport. The former Lioness started playing football for Arsenal when she was just eight years old, later, as a semi-professional player for the club she washed the men's team kit to earn extra money on the side. Alex went on to play for England 140 times and now presents on the BBC and Sky Sports. She has recently released her memoir entitled ‘How (Not) to Be Strong’ and joins Emma in the studio. Last Friday after two weeks of the inquest into the death of Molly Russell in 2017 coroner Andrew Walker concluded Molly died from an act of self-harm while suffering depression and the negative effects of online content. He said the images of self-harm and suicide she viewed "shouldn't have been available for a child to see" and that social media content contributed "more than minimally" to her death. Her father, Ian has called for urgent changes to make children safer online. Emma Barnett speaks to Merry Varney, the family’s lawyer. It's just five weeks until the midterm elections in the United States. Emma is joined by the Democratic Senator Jeanne Shaheen, the first woman in US history to be elected both as a Governor and as a Senator for New Hampshire, a small but decisive State. In 2012, having been lost for over 500 years, the remains of King Richard III were discovered beneath a car park in Leicester. The search had been orchestrated by an amateur historian, Philippa Langley, whose unrelenting research had been met with incomprehension by her friends and family and with scepticism by experts and academics. Emma speaks to Philippa Langley.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. And welcome to a busy programme, as always. We have the amateur historian whose research helped locate the remains of a king in a car park, the star footballer confronting painful home truths, and the Democratic senator who's flown to the UK to give attention to the so-called special political relationship. All to come.

But I wanted to ask you about working on single-sex teams. When have you worked only with women, either at work or away from the job? How was it? Did it work well? Any downsides? You know I always like you to share. Experiences also of single-sex male teams are welcome too. But this has come to mind this morning with this wonderful story about four British women who are swapping their day jobs, heading off to Antarctica to run the world's most southerly post office, known as the Penguin Post Office, for five months. It's got its name because besides one returning team member, there are no other

permanent residents other than a colony of 1,500 penguins. You may be thinking, why do these penguins need a post office? Well, it's because there are 80,000 postcards delivered by hand from tourists arriving on cruise ships. This post office has been closed over the pandemic. It's reopening for the first time in two years. The women will be working in almost continuous daylight. And I love the fact that one of them's only just got married, didn't think her application would be successful and is now essentially doing a solo honeymoon. But to the idea of all-female teams then, of course, I have nothing to say about working on basically an all-female team here at Woman's Hour, but you can spill forth. Text me here

on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or email me through the Woman's Hour website, or send a WhatsApp message or voice note on 03700 100 444. Keep those messages coming in throughout the programme, and I will come to them, I promise. But first, the Prime Minister has a lot on her plate at the moment. She's at the Conservative Party conference preparing for her speech tomorrow. Speeches we know have had to be written and rewritten at haste. Currently, the economy's at the top of the list.

And this morning, speaking to the Today programme, Liz Truss refused to rule out real-term benefit cuts to help pay for her government's tax cut and growth plan. Something else in the forefront of many people's minds is the online safety bill, which began making its way towards the statute books in the previous parliament. This is because of a ruling last week from the inquest into the death of Molly Russell. The 14-year-old took her own life in 2017. In what's thought to be the first ruling of its kind, the coroner said the images of self-harm and suicide she viewed, quote, shouldn't have been available for a child to see, and that social media content contributed, quote, more than minimally to her death.

Here's Molly's father, Ian Russell, speaking after the ruling. We should not be sitting here. This should not happen because it does not need to happen. But we told this story in the hope that change would come about and I hope that the world will be safer the digital world particularly will be a safer place to inhabit and the final thing I want to say is thank you Molly for being say is thank you, Molly, for being my daughter. Thank you. Ian Russell there. Online safety has been a major concern for parents and politicians alike for

years. We've spoken about it a lot on this programme and will continue to do so. The Prime Minister has confirmed that the bill will be taken forward in Parliament, but questions remain over whether it will be as strong as originally intended. The bill, if introduced in its current form, will impose extensive obligations on online services providers regarding illegal and harmful content that appears on platforms. Five former culture secretaries have raised concerns about attempts to rewrite it and have urged the government to swiftly introduce duty of care laws.

Well, to discuss the coroner's ruling and the lessons from it, I'm joined in the studio by Mary Varney, the Russell family lawyer and partner at Lee Day. Good morning. Good morning. Not a criminal case, but an investigation of why Molly died. What is your response to the findings? So this is an investigation into how Molly came by her death. And to hear the coroner record in his conclusion all the elements of this harmful content, that it normalised self-harm, that it glamorised feelings of worthlessness, that it isolated Molly, was incredibly welcome. It was a very powerful day. And the family's response?

We heard a bit there. It was an exhausting process for them. As Ian said himself afterwards, it was an agonising two weeks as they missed Molly more than ever. But they too welcomed the coroner's finding. People must listen now. There must be change.

It was significant because it's the first time a British inquest has ruled social media contributed to a child's death. As far as we know, that's right. And as far as we know, it's the first time companies like Pinterest and Meta, who own Instagram, were forced to attend court and participate in legal proceedings. So it's hugely significant. People have been raising concerns about online harms for a long time. And now we have a court having heard the evidence rule that it contributed to a child's death. Although there are still concerns that

even though those companies or representatives of those companies attended, nothing has actually changed. There have been some small changes and Pinterest at least came with an attitude of wanting to learn. They accepted that their platform was unsafe when Molly was using it. Instagram, owned by Meta on the other hand, did not accept their site was safe. And although again, some small changes have been made, much of the content that Molly viewed is still available on these platforms and in particular on Instagram. A Pinterest spokesperson said, our thoughts are with the Russell family.

We've listened very carefully to everything the coroner and the family have said. During the inquest, Pinterest is committed to making ongoing improvements to help ensure that the platform is safe for everyone and the coroner's report will be considered with care. For Instagram, the parent company Meta, a spokesperson said, our thoughts are with the Russell family and everyone who's been affected by this tragic death. We're committed to ensuring that Instagram is a positive experience for everyone, particularly teenagers, and we will carefully consider the coroner's report.

We will continue the full report when it's provided. We will continue our work with the world's leading independent experts to help ensure the changes we make offer the best possible protection and support for teens. What's your view, having looked through the material, about the changes that need to be made and whether they will happen? I think this has been by far the hardest case that I've ever worked on. And when some of the material was provided from the social media companies, I mean, it was shocking to see. Pinterest, however, provided everything in one go. They showed us what Molly had saved for the pins she'd saved, but also what she close-upped on and what she scrolled over. Meta, on the other hand, took months and months to provide information.

It came in bits and pieces, and we still don't know fully what Molly was doing on Instagram. But diving into that material to review it on behalf of the family and the trust that they put in me to do that, it is the first time that I've taken professional assistance. I'm an experienced inquest lawyer. I work a lot with bereaved families with some very difficult material. But this was something else. Clicking on links from a vast spreadsheet, which is how Meta first gave the material to us for the family,

never knew whether I was going to see a celebrity or something to do with popular culture or TV or a piece of harmful content, a meme telling the reader that they're worthless, that you're ugly, that you have to put on a smile to tell the world you're fine when you're not. And as Ian described it, it is a daily drip feed of hopelessness. And it really impacted on me. When you say you had to have assistance for the first time, what do you mean?

So I took advice about how to protect myself. I'm a very resilient person, but the music from the videos, for instance, on Instagram, they invade your thoughts. A consultant psychiatrist who gave evidence to the court in his role as an expert described how he couldn't sleep for weeks afterwards. So practical tips about how to deal with that. Some of this work was done during the pandemic. I have two children. It was all very, very close to home. And as well as everyone has a personal reaction when they see this type of material. My job was to think about how Molly would have felt, a 14-year-old girl,

and then to think about how best to tell her family about what we'd seen. How did you do that? With as much sensitivity as I could, we take time to offer families choices of where they might want to hear the information, how. We build up strong relationships of trust. And I think Molly's family knew when I needed to tell them difficult things. We spent a lot of time together and we trod that very difficult path together. I can see how much this is moving you now to think about what you've actually watched. Yes, and I feel very privileged to be acting for Molly's family. And Molly told her family to live long and stay strong.

And those words stayed with me when it was most difficult. Because we should also say it was reported Molly used her Instagram account, of course she had several accounts, up to 120 times a day. So to give an insight in how much young people, some young people are accessing these services, that's also an extraordinary figure. Yes, and that's just what she engaged with. But anybody who uses social media knows how easy it is to just sit and scroll and follow hashtags, look an account you're interested in, and it keeps sucking you deeper. I could feel it happening to myself, and I am a resilient adult.

The idea of a 14-year-old looking at children still having access to this material is at times overwhelmingly sad. I mentioned the online safety bill in relation to we have a new prime minister to the priorities that are being set at the moment there's a commitment there was anyway certainly as this began to make the UK the safest place in the world to be online while defending freedom of expression how confident are you in the law? As a lawyer I have to believe that these tools work and this space has been unregulated for far too long and now a child is dead. In every other walk of life, we accept censorship for children. It's right. That's how we protect them. Yet social media companies have been able to build businesses that are profit generated, that are serving up to our children incredibly harmful content. It must stop. They, of course, don't view themselves, most of them, as publishers.

That's one of the big contentions. They've also talked and others talk about the fact that these ills exist already in the world. And it's the role of those who, I'm not talking about this case in particular, but it's the role of us as a society to also help educate parents and limit. What do you make of those arguments? Well, I think there is, of course, a role for all of us in keeping children safe. It's a matter for us all. But when you see in an inbox for email from Pinterest, for instance, saying 10 new pins in depression, and we know that Instagram was suggesting to Molly profiles, over 7% of which were related to sad, depressive themes. This is not just about who's putting the content up there. This is firmly about the fact that there are algorithms, their whole business is built

around showing you more of what you like. So a child who looks at this material, whether they searched for it, or it came to them another way, are then taken deeper and deeper into that dark space. And for people who aren't familiar, you were talking about the fact this was content coming towards Molly, that she wasn't necessarily seeking out to make that experience stickier, as they call it, to stay there for longer. Do you have faith, I suppose, what I'm asking as well is in one government, you know, the UK government to bring to task, you know, these global companies? We have to start somewhere. And it is a global issue. These platforms have global reach, but we have to start here. And if the UK can lead the way, then so be it. And hopefully others

will follow. It can't continue. It wouldn't continue in the offline world. A lot of people have paid tribute to Molly's father, to Ian Russell. They've talked about no, you know, for instance, I'm just looking at what Prince William, Prince of Wales said, child safety should be a prerequisite, not an afterthought, and said no parent should have to endure what Ian Russell and his family have been through. And also paying

tribute to the fact that he's taken on these tech giants. Yes they are an incredibly brave family. I've had the privilege to work with many bereaved families and it is a real shame that we have to rely often on bereaved families to share what is the most painful event of their life for these types of horrors to be uncovered and Ian and his family have shone a very bright light in a very dark space and we all owe them gratitude for that. Mary Varney thank you for coming to talk to us today the Russell's family lawyer and partner at Lee Day. Thank you. We've got messages coming in while you were listening to that of course responding to what you've just been hearing perhaps even digesting it and maybe you'll you'll

also send us some of your views or experiences on that but you've been getting in touch about working on female only teams i this one here i work mostly with women mostly women in a museum good chat everyone kept their electronic diaries up to date but no one was comfortable making decisions that might upset others i've also worked with mostly men in a law enforcement environment no drama no bitchiness you're accepted on merit but no gossiping says louise all female leadership team is a discussion here in this message my all-female leadership team in the languages department of a secondary school is the best team i've worked on we have difficult moments as you'd expect'd expect, but our team dynamic can weather any storm. The only downside I can see are for the young male staff who want to break into the leadership team and choose to believe

it's their sex rather than inexperience that stands in their way. And so the messages keep coming in. And I'm sure my next guest will have a view on all female leadership teams or the lack of them sometimes in politics, because now we go to America where in just five weeks time, the midterm elections will take place. Two years into Joe Biden's presidency, a lot of issues facing the American people. You will relate, I'm sure. Inflation has soared to its highest level in the States in four decades. The price of food and fuel is spiralling and fears growing that the US could slip into a recession next year. Jobs and taxes are top of people's minds, according to the news website Axios, which has been polling on this. But other issues are also likely to affect how people cast their vote on the 8th of November.

For instance, the Supreme Court ruling that struck down Roe v. Wade in June this year, effectively ending the constitutional right to abortion. The president has urged voters to vent their fury, if they have that, at the ballot box. And there are also questions about the president himself. A New York Times poll in July found that 64% of Democrats said they would prefer a different candidate to Biden come 2024. Who is my next guest then? The Democratic Senator, Jeanne Shaheen, who can discuss a lot of these issues, I'm sure, with me now. But also she's here in the UK to look at the special relationship between the UK and the US. The senator is the first woman in US history to be elected both as a governor and as a United States senator for New Hampshire, a small but decisive state in elections.

Good morning. Good morning. Nice to be with you. Welcome to the program, Senator Jean Shaheen. If I just start with, as I say, we're very familiar with this, we're talking about it very much, especially because we have a new prime minister with a new economic plan, which has been going backwards and forwards on some parts of it. Democrats now in charge for two years. What are your party doing and are you doing enough to assuage those concerns about paying the bills? Well, people are concerned, and rightly so, about rising costs, which are the result of supply chain problems dating back to COVID. The fact that so much of the products that people use, the food, has been affected by those supply chain issues, transportation. So the better news story we have is that we've had a consistent

decrease in the price of gasoline, which has been really helpful to people. So as the price of gas goes down, people are feeling a little less strapped. But this is going to be a big issue, like other issues that are coming up in the midterm elections. You mentioned the Supreme Court decision on Roe v. Wade, which has energized women across the country who are very concerned about a restriction on rights that women have had for 50 years. How much do you think, I mean, there's a polling by YouGov found more than half of all Americans disapprove of the decision. Do you think that will be in people's minds at midterms?

I do. And we've seen it already. We saw it in a referendum in Kansas where a very red state, Republican state, turned out overwhelmingly to support a Kansas referendum that would protect the rights of women to an abortion. And we've seen it in several special elections where it's been a very big issue. And in my state of New Hampshire, where 70 percent of the people believe that women should make that decision for themselves. It is a very big issue in our Senate race coming up in our two congressional races. I suppose it's just also this has happened. It's not because of Biden, but on Biden's watch, you know, during his tenure is an extraordinary moment. You know, even here in the UK, you could feel it, the impact and the, you know, the importance of it. And, you know, talking to women as you do and to men, but your party is limited in what it can do. Joe Biden is limited what it can do to protect women in the states where abortion is now illegal. Well, that's not entirely true,

because we could have a federal law that provided protection for all women to have for their reproductive rights. And there's a very big difference between the Republicans who are running for office and the Democrats, because what the Republican Senate minority has already done is introduce a bill that would make abortion illegal for all women across the United States. So you could do that, though. And is that going to happen? That's my point. There's a concern about the limitation of the power. But but we could reverse that. We can as a Congress, we could say, no, abortion is legal everywhere in the United States. I suppose I'm asking, what are the odds of that happening? And what can you say to people to reassure them if they are concerned about this? The odds, that's why it's so important what happens in the election, because what happens in the election is going to determine the future of that issue.

If you have the power to do that. For women, yes. And it's true both at the federal level in terms of national races, but it's also true at the state level where state legislatures right now under the Supreme Court decision have the right to restrict women's access to abortion. And so in state legislative races and governor's races, this has been an issue as well as in national races. Do you think Joe Biden should stand in the next presidential election? Does he have your vote? Well, if he decides to run, he will have my vote. I think that's up to the president. It is. But, you know, you must see him, spend time with him and having watched the significant accomplishments that have been done during this year of the Biden administration and last year. I think it's

important to the future of New Hampshire to have that or to the future of the country to have that leadership. I mean, I'm only asking, is it not the case that he appeared to forget the death of a congresswoman who he called on for an event even though she died earlier this year. Was that not a true story? That was a true story, but it ignored all of the other comments that he made. And, you know, as I'm sure you know, anybody who's been in a high pressure position, sometimes you forget. And it was just obviously there's also he appeared. You can tell again, it's good to have you. You can correct the record if there is an issue.

He appeared to get lost. Joe Biden, as he attempted to walk off a stage after a speech at the UN last month. Is that a concern? It's not a concern for me. I have known Joe Biden for 30 years. I've seen him. He is doing an excellent job. If we look at what's happened in the United States under his watch, passing the American Rescue Plan to provide help for

people who were affected by COVID, the most number of jobs created in the country after COVID in 40 years, the passage of an expansion of benefits for veterans, the Inflation Reduction Act, which we passed in Congress, which would address healthcare, make healthcare more affordable, address the high cost of prescription drugs. With respect, that wasn't really my question, because my question was, should he go again? You know, it's the idea that he could be president until he's 86. If Joe Biden decides to run again, I will support him. And I think his leadership will be significant for the country. Even though I mentioned that poll, which said the majority of Democrats... That's an old poll, I think, if you looked at it.

Again, you'll see that those numbers have gone up. The numbers of people supporting the president have gone up. Yes, but they might still prefer someone else for the next time around. I'm not talking about the midterms. But your point is, you think he's fine, and he's got what it takes to go to the age of 86. I think the president is doing an excellent job. If he runs again, I will support him. The special relationship is why you are here. I know that you are having meetings and you're also talking about this. People may recall that Joe Biden and Liz Truss were due to meet in the UK after the Queen's funeral. It was then postponed later in the week for a meeting at the United Nations.

Once they did meet, a US official said it was a candid discussion in which the president said that protecting the Good Friday Agreement and the gains of it is a matter of bipartisan importance in the U.S., a matter of personal importance to him as president. Of course, Liz Truss, these were her first few days in the job. Where do you take the temperature on that relationship at the moment? The United States and England have been great partners, and I expect that to continue. Obviously, we have priorities in the U.S. that are different, perhaps, than the current leadership in England. Just as there are some priorities here that are different than our leadership. And I think what's important is like families, you want to be able to be honest about what the priorities are and how you're going to address them. And I think on Northern Ireland, the president was expressing what many of us in Congress and Americans are interested in seeing, which is a resolution to what's

happening there. It doesn't sound great, though. I mean, you know, I've actually studied the special relationship. I've looked at it throughout the years. I've particularly looked at Macmillan and JFK. I mean, going way back. But this right now doesn't sound like it's got off to the best start because of that. Well, again, I think that is a good start to be able to share what your priorities are and to do that openly and honestly so is what we're referring to when we talk about the Good Friday Agreement, is a stumbling block to that, because that was one of the great promises of those who were on the side of the Brexit part of that debate. Well, there have been negotiations. I'm sure those will continue. And how that comes out depends on what's in the interest of the United States and what's in the interest of Britain.

You've met Liz Truss as well, I understand. We met her in Madrid at the NATO summit when she was there as foreign secretary, and I was there with the congressional delegation. And much of the focus of our conversation was on Ukraine and the importance of the West working together to continue to support Ukraine, which has huge implications for the outcome of that war for democracies. Well, it's, of course, as I say, very early days. It's quite a bumpy ride so far with the economic program for the UK. But it sounds like from the position of the special relationship, it's again in the early stages, and we will see how that goes. I mentioned your own record in terms of being the first woman elected governor and senator, a pivotal seat in New Hampshire when it comes to US politics. We're talking about actually working on all female teams. But how do you view the landscape now for women coming through in politics in America? Obviously, every election we try, we hope to see more women in power. I would like to

see more women than we have now in the Senate. There are 25 women, so a quarter, excuse me, of the hundred of us are women. And we do have a special relationship as the women senators. We don't always vote the same or agree, but we meet about every other month for dinner, both party members, Republicans and Democrats, the women. And we have a rule that... See, that's nice that you get together. Very much. And what happens at those dinners stays at those dinners. Don't worry, I wasn't going to pry. But it's interesting that you do that across Republican and Democrat. And sometimes we talk about our male colleagues. I can't imagine. Maybe that's why it does stay sacrosanct. And what are you hoping for from this particular trip?

Well, I was I'm here on my way back from the Bosnian elections on Sunday, where I went as an observer from the United States Senate with the OSCE. And so we thought this was a great opportunity to stop and meet with some of the new administration here to also have a chance to talk to people about the challenges that we jointly face, particularly with respect to foreign policy and Ukraine. Senator Jean Shaheen, thank you very much for talking to us. Nice to be here. Good luck with the trip. Thank you. A window into American politics and what may or may not be concerning certain voters, especially ahead of

those midterms. Your messages are continuing about the idea of working on women-only teams. Hello, BBC Women's Hour. I've worked in costume departments, large and small, for over 20 years in film, television and theatre predominantly staffed and run and headed by women how fabulous great colleagues and friends i've met and made over the years the main issues sadly still stem from the outdated predominantly male staff production team values which persist in deeming female departments unimportant and continue to treat costume as such women are great naked without us. That's what you are. Many thanks, says Fiona. I manage eight women at a mental health charity. We have open discussions about not becoming a stereotypical bitchy bunch of women working in an office together.

If a new team member comes in, the team quickly, they learn, excuse me, quickly that we don't tolerate any kind of behaviour as we stand together to support one another, particularly as our work is challenging and often very stressful, says one of our listeners in Belfast. I work in an all-female team, another one here. It's a breath of fresh air. It's the best working environment I've been in. We all talk about feelings, fears, our PMS, menopausal symptoms, children, pets, without fear or judgment or eye rolls. It is loving, supportive, non-judgmental, and I believe

it brings out the very best in all of us because we're happy and comfortable whenever we're at work, says Amy, who's listening in London. Good morning to you. Keep those messages

coming in, please. It's very good to hear your experiences. And also, you know, some of you talking about some of the slight negatives as well about those differences if you've worked on

a mixed team before. Now, someone who's just walked into the studio knows all about working with lots of women. One of the most high profile names in women's sport, Alex Scott. The former Lioness, of course,

started playing football for Arsenal when she was just eight years old. Later as a semi-professional player for the club. I believe, I still can't quite believe, but I'll say it. She washed the men's team kit to earn extra money on the side. And Alex went on to play for England 140 times.

And now as a broadcaster, you'll know her voice, her face. She presents on the BBC and Sky Sports. You will have seen her alongside Ian Wrighty and Gabby Logan as a pundit during the Euros earlier this summer, where England won their first major title in 56 years. But I'm sure we'll come to that. She has just released her memoir entitled How Brackets Not, close brackets, to be strong.

Good morning, Alex Scott. Good morning. Thank you for having me. A powerful title that invites a lot of questions. And I know it was a very big thing for you to write this book and get it out there in the world. And one of the things you very bravely and very candidly have chosen to do in the book is go into quite difficult times in your childhood, you know, part of what's made you what you are and who you are today. Why did you decide to do that, first of all? I think because I've been on this journey over the last couple of years of understanding myself, to be honest,

why some of the patterns in my relationships or in my life, trying to keep emotions to the side and the hurt and the vulnerability all along the way. And so I've gone through that and realised actually, a big part of that is because of a result of my childhood. And one way for me to put that chapter to bed finally, was to get it all out and be done with it and not try and hide it anymore or feel shame from it. You talk about violence, that you would lie in bed as a child at night in your flat in a block in East London, a tower block, tense and terrified, you know, listening for movement.

You're concerned about where your mum is and you're thinking about what's happening to your mum with regards to your father. You talked about feeling helpless and all you could do was lie there and pray that your mum would be alive in the morning. It's very, very powerful to hear that from the perspective of a child. And I imagine to share that as well. I think, yeah, it's all still so raw. And even when you say that, I can visualize it like it was yesterday.

And that's the thing as well. So even when my dad left that environment, we never communicated or you don't speak about it. It's like you try to move on with your life and leave that to decide, but it never leaves you. And that pain and the struggle still continues and then I suppose as well then those conversations with my mum don't happen she doesn't know that her two kids are in the room hearing everything she's trying to be strong in a totally different way and we're trying to be strong for her but can't help her um but like you said that the visuals are still so there yeah I couldn't do

anything and you also as children were you say subjected to to similar sort of treatment and the experience of violence in the home yeah it's yesterday was hard because my my dad's now done a story. And it just hurts again. I think I'd have more respect for him if he just came out and admitted everything, you know. Let me help you out with that because overnight your father has spoken to the Daily Mail. Yeah. He has denied ever being violent but does acknowledge he was strict. One of the quotes to the paper was, he said, I was never violent.

That's not just me. I never beat Alex or anyone else in the family or did anything like that. Yeah. I wanted to give you the chance to respond to that. Do you know what I'm seeing here? I actually don't care what happened to me. I actually, strict, if you're saying being beaten with a belt, it's just being strict. I can take that. I really don't care about me. What I do care is about my mum

and the fear and the terror that she had to live in and the fact that I was never able to help her in that. But what I can do is help her now by speaking the truth. And everything I wrote in that book, I stand by it, Emma, because it is the truth. And I almost feel angry at myself that I'm allowing him to hurt me again by those claims of lying. And I'm sorry, I feel sorry right now that I've not used my voice sooner to help my mum or any other woman that is in this position. But what he has done, he's lit a new fire in me yesterday.

Because what I will do is do all I can to help women in this position so they don't have the feelings that my mum has carried her whole life or what I have every he he took money for that doing the article and I hope from that money he can have some peace and it gives him something do you know that I mean are you in touch with your father no I that's the thing right in the book I wrote in it that I didn't do it to shame him I'd done it to free my mum that was the light this all I was thinking is free my mum so she could move forward gosh I just need to make clear I don't know if he did save money we don't know that but you're saying that because are you aware of that or have you had some contact in the last few hours no no not today not when I wrote the book I wanted to reach out to him I

didn't want him to feel pain or sadness that I've carried the guilt so long trying to reach out to him through my life sending him birthday presents and Christmas cards and absolutely getting nothing absolutely nothing in 2017 my nan passed away and at the funeral he tried to say that he's going to change he's done some things in the past and I just knew I knew it was just talk and then so from them no I didn't hear from him in lockdown there were floods in the Lake District and I had so much guilt that suppose something happens to him so I text him literally just to see if he was okay got a text back that was it and then I did a podcast and on the thing as well as asked am I going to reach out to him before the book comes out and I was like yes even though people were telling me I don't owe him that I never wanted him to be sad

or think the reasons why I was doing it was coming from a certain place so I tried to reach out to him and got nothing the excuse was he was away but he picked up the phone to my brother to speak to my brother. And I still felt so guilty that night that I text him apologising. That things might come out. Why am I apologising to him? But I suppose that's the whole thing, isn't it? When you live in that sort of environment take a moment because uh there's a message here from Sarah for instance who just says

poor Alex she sounds like she's been through such a lot it's just terrible for her she's so brave to speak out and and you know he's made these comments while you're promoting your book. And your book is your story and your account of what happened. And as you say, it's also to do with your mum. How's your mum in all of this? I think that story from him coming out yesterday takes her back to a place. And so when I'm trying to have a conversation and she's recalling even news stories I've never heard of and hearing the pain and the terror again in her voice last night that's why I don't know what I can do

but I'm not going to allow him to win no more. This book, like I said, the reason was to get some peace. And I suppose when you are in peace, it gives you a new position of power. And that's maybe why he's trying to gain his back right now. I'm happy you still thought you could come and talk to me and to our listeners today. Thank you. In light of that last night, because your very private life, your childhood playing out in the papers like this, you, of course, have chosen to put what you've put in the book,

but there's a whole other dimension, I suppose, when a family member speaks to a paper. I don't know. I was thinking that maybe it was wrong of me to think that there'd be kind of a happy kind of ending in it. You know, that my mum would have that light, that freedom and we could move on in this chapter and I would be able to reach out to my dad and tell him that I've moved on. Like, I don't judge him by the past or anything but the the fact that he chose to do that yesterday

just shows that he hasn't changed and actually that I don't now deserve to be hurt by him anymore and you're processing this right now I mean that's what I can see which is that you've processed a part of it for the book but I suppose what's happened in the last 24 hours, it brings a whole other dimension to it. Yeah, it's got me thinking a lot. Like, I wrote the book to get all of that away. And I didn't even think about the outcome of the book or this process, actually.

You know, going around and having to relive and talk about it and it's been it's been hard and then yesterday with that happening it's made me think then what what do I do next now what's the next chapter how do I help and actually I didn't even think about the book or making money and then last night it hit me the fact of him doing that story well do you know what I hope you're happy because what I'm going to do with that book is I don't even know if it will make money to be honest

all that money will go to help women that's what you'd like to do I was going to say you say it lit a fire in you yeah that's the fire so you'd like to donate. I was going to say, you say it lit a fire in you. Yeah, that's the fire. So you'd like to donate perhaps the proceeds of the book?

Yes. Not even perhaps. I said perhaps because it's very hard to make money in the book world. I'm sure you're going to do it. I don't even know if it will make money or what goes on with that thing. It's nice to see that smile that I'm more familiar with when you're chatting about football. Thanks for doing the tissues next to me as well I appreciate that well that's our lovely editor for the day she comes armed with tissues um and and we're very happy to share them with you thank you um but you'd like you'd like to to now not just the money but also support perhaps

yeah some of those charities and you've just started thinking about that side of things yeah because like you said I just wrote the book in order to tell my story get those emotions and free my mum I wasn't thinking about the what next or what comes of it you know it's just like I've done it there it is to the side but last night I was like no there needs to be more done like I said I'm sorry because I know I've had a platform and maybe I should have used it sooner Sometimes you've got to go through

some of the processing and writing and you've got to think about what you can say and what you want to say and also what your mum feels okay with you saying you've gone through a process I suppose to get to this point we have so many messages coming in for you, say i'm listening to you right now ali thank you for your bravery and confidence in speaking out your story shines a light on a topic that is not spoken about enough keep that fire burning for you and for your mum and so it continues uh and

someone else saying they completely identify with the situation and they had a very similar situation with their father another one you're incredible and your mum must be so proud of you for staying loyal and honest uh and it's how it continues i do just need to ask also very uh you know important question um in comparison of course and i'm jesting slightly did you talk to righty about washing his socks no because righty's right here you know I just love being alongside him and the fact that I used to work in the laundry I don't care it's all part of the story I know it's part of the story but I also have met right here used to work at five live we used to see each other most Sunday evenings and I just love the fact that you had to do that as a woman

coming up in football yeah and I hate the fact as well uh-huh but things have changed like they don't have to do that now that's what makes me so proud to be part of seeing the lionesses lift that trophy like the stuff that people before me as well that have done everything they can to get women's football to where it is during that summer and for young girls and boys now to look up and be like I want to be like a Leah Williamson or a Lucy Bronze is is incredible you've come a long way and then what you've talked about this morning and how you've been in reacting to it and coming into the studio will not have been easy I'm sorry about all the crying to Lucy not apologizing hard this morning you've had a a very big development in your own life in

the last 24 hours since writing this book that you you you know you said you haven't thought about what you wanted to do next you couldn't have thought of that either yeah alice come and talk to me again i'm sorry everyone in their morning oh god do not apologize and i'll tell you what you can keep the tissues thank you and we will make you a lovely cup of tea on the way out as well i hope thank you and thanks for coming in today thank you the book is called how brackets not close brackets to be strong and many of you are responding to that thank you very much thank you let me just tell you then when i see these messages i've given you a sort of flavor of them but they're carrying on do keep them coming

in i will try and come back to them all we'll return to them in a different way and put them together and share some of them with Alex as well because some of you are including her in those messages but from a remarkable story also from how one woman got to a certain place to another because in 2012

having been lost for over 500 years, the remains of one of the most controversial kings in England's history, King Richard III, you may remember this, were discovered beneath a car park in Leicester. Well, how does a woman relate to this? The search had been orchestrated by an amateur historian, Philippa Langley. Her unrelenting research had been met with incomprehension, I think it's safe to say, by her friends and family. And there was also scepticism by experts and academics. Coming out later this week is a new film which tells her story at the heart of this story called The Lost King,

a story of a woman who refused to be ignored and took on some of the most eminent historians. It's co-written by Steve Coogan and Jeff Pope. You may remember they wrote the award-winning Philomena, another biographical film about a woman's unheard story in her search, but for her son. Let's talk to the woman at the heart of this, the film's inspiration, historian and researcher, Philippa Langley. Good morning. Morning, Emma.

Thank you for being with us today. Because for you, I mean, Richard III, he died at the Battle of Bosworth Field. You found his bodily remains in 2012. He died in 1485, buried under a car park in Leicester. Your research led to that discovery. And you've been doing this research for over seven years. And you weren't, as I understand it, a historian at the time. No, I wasn't. I'd been working in sort of marketing and advertising.

But I read a book about Richard III by an American academic and it fascinated me that the story that I could see of the historical Richard was a 180 from the Shakespeare's Richard because the academic had looked into the contemporary source materials from Richard's own lifetime and found a very different man to the man that we see in Shakespeare. What had got you so interested in him? What was it about him? I think it was this juxtaposition of Shakespeare's story with the historical story and that it was so poles apart because Shakespeare's story is so powerful it's such an incredible dramatic narrative that it's part of our psyche now that this is who we think this man was but when you actually investigate the contemporary source materials from his own lifetime, there is overwhelming evidence to see a man who was loyal, brave, devout, and just. And this is not to make him a saint.

No, no. But it's just to show there's a difference. There's a different individual there. And there are many around the world who share your interest and shared your interest and felt the same. But there's one thing to take an interest and read a few books. And there's another thing to going to thinking you can find his remains somewhere different to where other people think they are, because you put it together, and it ends up being below a car park. Why did you end up wanting to try and find it?

It started in quite an unconventional way, because I was interested in Richard's life. But I visited the Greyfriars Precinct area in Leicester, which would have held the church where we thought Richard was buried, and went into this particular car park, the northern end of this car park, and I had an intuitive experience in this area of the car park where I felt I was walking on Richard's grave. Really? Yeah. So I couldn't't explain that but then the following year I went back to the car park because I wanted to see if what I'd felt was real. Right. And had the same experience in the same place northern end of

this car park and then there was a letter R on the tarmac, clearly for reserve parking. Yes, not for here lies Richard III. No. And it was that experience that changed my research focus. I started looking into his death and his burial. And the Queen, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, she spoke to you about this, didn't she? It was one of her private secretaries from her office, because I'd sent her all of the documents, the project documents for the Looking for Richard project. And so they called to say that the Queen had given the project her blessing because of the respectful way in which it was being undertaken.

Because part of my research in going in search of Richard, you know, you've got to think, okay, what do we do if we find what we're going in search of? So very kindly, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission had shared with me very confidentially all of their processes for when they find the fallen on the battlefield, because obviously Richard had fallen on the battlefield as well. So we'd put that into the project's documents. And I think that was a huge moment for me, because for the Queen to give me her blessing, it was another moment where I felt that, you know,

it made me want to do this search and to continue. What was it like, the actual moment that the remains were discovered for you? Yeah, for me, that was a huge moment because I'd spent all of these years researching Richard III. And we have all of these descriptions of Richard from his own lifetime where nobody mentions anything, you know, abnormal. A couple of them say that he was short of stature, but there's nothing, you know, about any physical abnormality. However, when he died, there was a Warwickshire priest who said that he had one shoulder higher than the other, but he left a gap in his writing to fill in which shoulder was the higher one. So we discussed this, because in the Richard III Society, you know, we research and reassess Richard III, that's what we

do, that's why we exist. And we'd sort of come to the conclusion that it was like the bowmen at Towton Battlefield, that whichever side they drew the bow on, they could see from their skeletal remains that they were heavily muscled and heavy developed on one particular side of their body. So we presumed that this is what had happened to Richard. He was potentially right-handed with his sword, and this is why he had one shoulder higher than the other. But I sort of meant actually the fact that you were vindicated, you know, that he was found. And I imagine for some of your friends and family, your nearest and dearest, could have just thought, what is she doing during this time? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

I mean, you know, one of my sons, you know, did say to me, why are you doing this, mummy? You know, you're going a long way away. And what happened if you don't find anything? And I was very clear whether I found anything or not, it would give us a huge amount of information. It would move our research forward. What did that son say when you said, actually, mummy did go and find the king? Well, they call me King Finder. When I got home. That's way cooler than mum. That's cooler i mean i'd take that uh coming to away from the story itself although this is obviously very linked there's now

this film and there has been criticism of the film from the university of leicester about how their involvement in the dig is represented in the film and and they say just to quote part of the statement and i want to give you the chance to reply because because we've heard a lot from Steve Coogan and the like, but we haven't heard that much from you. And this is Woman's Hour, and you're the woman at the heart of this story. We appreciate that while The Lost King is based on real events, it's a work of fiction,

and recollections will vary from various people of what happened during such an incredibly exciting moment in history. It is our view that the portrayal of the University of Leicester's role in the project is far removed from the accurate work that took place. What do you make of that? Well, I've spent eight years working with the filmmakers who've been researching and developing this story.

And it is my story. And it's based on documented materials, on original materials and on eyewitness testimony. So everything you see in the film is fully supported. The other element which I thought could be particularly of interest to our listeners was that the former deputy registrar of the university has told the BBC that the changes in the film are designed to create an artificial narrative of a sexist, male dominated university seeking to betray, excuse me, this lone female heroine. Only way for filmmakers to do this is by artificially removing all key female academic leads from the story. Did that happen?

No, not at all. Our story is my story. So the story finishes with the discovery of Richard. We don't go into the DNA and all of that. So it's a very particular moment that we look at in the film. So, no, we certainly didn't do that. And, you know, I wouldn't want to have been a part of that story if we did do it. But, you know, to give you some idea of, you know, I was in Leicester a day or two ago and giving a talk there. And I met Sir Peter Salsby, who's the mayor of Leicester, who is the head of Leicester City Council, who's the landowner, who gave me personal permission to dig the car park. And, you know, he said to me, and it's my position as well, he said, I just don't understand, Philippa, what the university is doing. And he said, you know, in 2012, 2013, they acted in a certain way. And he said, I felt that they might have moved on from that. But he said they haven't. And even though, you know, the vice chancellors have changed,

the culture at the university is exactly the same. And he absolutely doesn't understand it. And neither do I, because it's really, you know, this is a huge situation here, because this is a very powerful institution that is a seat of learning and education. So if they're giving out a story that is demonstrably untrue and factually untrue, then it means that we need to ask huge questions about this because a lot of people believe what

they say on face value. You know, they don't read my books and they don't look into my, you know, I've put original materials up on my website. So they believe that this is true. Well, that's why I wanted to give you the opportunity to reply because there have been these reports over the last few days and weeks and the film is about to come out.

Sally Hawkins is playing you in the film, which I imagine is also quite the experience for you. Yeah, for sure. When they told me that Sally Hawkins was coming on board, that was a huge moment for me, because she's the most incredible actress, and I just thought if someone of her calibre was interested in my story, that was remarkable for me.

That was a big moment. Philippa Langley, thank you for talking to us this morning. The film's called The Lost King, coming out later this week. And it's good to hear your voice on that, the experience of that, you know, king finder, king maker, the names that you now have from the family and also about what it's been like to respond to some of those stories around the film and how the story has been told. Philippa Langley there, thank you. And thank you to you for your company and your messages. Still many coming in and sending lots of love and hugs,

I have to say, to Alex Scott, who we were just listening to before and a rather remarkable bit of reaction. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year, thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. The deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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