Woman's Hour - Alexis Ohanian on women's sport, Shadow banning, Malory Towers on stage, Margo from Race Across the World

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

Best known as the co-founder of Reddit, Alexis Ohanian is now turning his focus to the future of women’s sport. Once overlooked and underfunded, it is now undergoing rapid change. Alexis is today announcing he's bringing his all-female track and field meet series, Athlos, to London. He tells Anita Rani why, and talks about being married to one of the most successful and well known sports stars of all time - Serena Williams.Some social media posts relating to menstruation, menopause, fertility and sexual health are being incorrectly flagged as 'adult content', then removed or their visibility limited - a practice described as 'shadow banning'. Charities and health professionals have signed an open letter to Meta - who own Facebook and Instagram - asking for an explanation for what they call the 'hiding' of information about women's health. Anita speaks to the BBC's Shona McCallum, the CEO of gynaecological charity The Eve Appeal Athena Lamnisos, and Tania who has personally experienced the benefit of this sort of content.The Emma Rice Company’s theatre show adaptation of Enid Blyton’s 1940s boarding school books, Malory Towers, is touring the UK. It’s the brainchild of the company’s director, Emma Rice, formerly artistic director at Shakespeare’s Globe in London. And it comes in the same year that Blyton’s series celebrates its 80th anniversary. Emma joins Anita.Margo Oakley tells Anita about her experience on the current series of the BBC TV show Race Across The World, making it to the final, and the incredible feedback she's had from audiences on her combination of optimism and vulnerability. She talks about grieving the loss of her sister Julia and coming together with her brother-in-law for this mammoth challenge.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Sarah Crawley

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning. Now, if you were a fan of Mallory Towers, then keep listening. A stage adaptation of the Enid Blyton series based in a girls' boarding school may be coming to a theatre near you. Now we have a big announcement for women's sport. Alexis O'Hanion, who was the co-founder of Reddit and happens to be. married to Serena Williams, is bringing his all-female track and field meat series Athlos to London. More on that.

Also, are you watching Race Across the World? In this series, the contestants have travelled 12,000 kilometres along the breathtaking ancient Silk Route. The finals tonight, and I'm going to be catching up with Margot, who, for those of you are watching, you'll know this, is teamed up with her brother-in-law, Mark. Mark was married to Margot's sister, Julia, for 40 years. Margo and Mark never saw eye to eye. They both cared for Julia while she was suffering with cancer. And it was one of Julia's last wishes that her husband and sister continue to build their friendship. Margo is going to be here to talk to us.

But this morning I'd like to hear from you. Has there been a time when you have reconciled with someone you didn't see eye to eye with? How did you build a bridge? What did it take? Did you have to swallow your pride? What did you learn about yourself? And are you glad you did it? You can get in touch in the usual way.

The text number is 84844. You can email us by going to our website or WhatsApp the program. It's 0300-100-444. The text number once again, 84844. But first, some social media posts relating to menstruation, menopause, fertility and sexual health are being incorrectly flagged as adult content, then removed or their visibility limited. practice described as shadow banning. Charities and health professionals have signed an open letter to Meta,

who own Facebook and Instagram, asking for an explanation for what they call the hiding of information about women's health, thus restricting access to medically accurate information. And they say this disproportionately affects content aimed at women and girls. MPs will be debating this later today. To give us an overview of what's happening, let's speak to the BBC's Shona McCallum, Morning Show. Shona. So let's start with shadow banning. Explain what it is. Yeah, so shadow banning is exactly

when your content is still technically allowed on the platform, but it quietly stops being shown to people in a normal way. You don't get the notification saying that you've broken a rule, nothing's deleted, but the engagement suddenly drops, almost reaches collapse, and you really feel like your content has been switched off. I mean, a lot of people that I've spoken to in this space have told me it's like shouting into the void. And I think the key thing is the lack of transparency here. So the platforms often don't officially admit

to shadow banning as being a policy, but it's the creators who are experiencing something very different when they post their content. So from a user point of view, it doesn't really matter what it's called. The outcome is really the same. and the content just becomes really difficult to find. And I think in the women's health space,

it can mean that really important educational posts about menstruation, contraception, menopause, they just don't reach the audience that they're intended to reach. And even when nothing has changed in the content itself and the content is fine, people just aren't seeing it. Can the moderation systems distinguish between what's explicit and legitimate health information? I think in short, sometimes, but not reliably.

And I think that is the core problem because most moderation systems are built on automation. So they rely heavily on things like keywords detection and image recognition. So if your post includes words like nipple, for example, or cervix, you can see that it will perhaps come under a threshold of being banned. Same with images. You know, it may get flagged automatically. regardless of whether it's a GP explaining symptoms or it's a health expert looking at something like a breast

or if it's pornography. And so, yes, sorry, carry on. I'm just also intent is the thing here. You know, although these systems are quite advanced, it can't distinguish clearly sometimes between, you know, sexualised images and then say a breast cancer awareness campaign, for example. So are there safeguards in place

to prevent wrongful removal? Well, most platforms do have appeal systems and that's something that they've often said to me when I've gone and said, well, look, this person's saying that they've been banned and they're trying to put perfectly legitimate health information on there. And in theory, then human moderators can come on and review and then reverse these automated takedowns.

But in practice, that's quite inconsistent, especially for smaller organisations. And I think, again, when we're talking about women's health, quite often these campaigns are time-sensitive. So by the time they go through this process and something's reinstated, it could be too late, basically. And, you know, the impact of that campaign could have passed. There's also trusted partners and verified health information routes on some platforms where you might see like a blue checkmark, for example. You know, organisations like medical bodies, the NHS, for example, you know, they're less likely to. to be flagged. But that's not universal and it does mean that it can alienate the grassroots women's

health organisations, which are quite often the ones that are complaining about the shadow banning. Yeah. Are there any attempts to ensure equal visibility for women's health content? Again, there are efforts, but there are uneven efforts. Platforms say that they want to prioritize authoritative health information. They want to reduce misinformation, especially when it comes to things like reproductive health and they don't want to over-censor, but then there is this tension because they're being told constantly

to reduce harmful content, take explicit content down. And I think, unfortunately, when we look at women's health education specifically, it almost ends up disproportionately affecting them just because of the language and the imagery, which is difficult when an automated system is trained to flag that type of thing.

Shona, thank you so much for speaking this morning. That was BBC's Shona McCallum. Well, I'm also joined by Athena Lamnosos, who is the chief executive of gynaecological charity, the Eve Appeal, and Tanya, who's personally experienced the benefit of this sort of content. Welcome to Women's Hour, both of you. Morning. I'm going to come to you first, Athena. Your organisation funds research and provides support for women with gynecological cancer. Part of this is providing information to help early detection. So what role does social media play for you? Yeah, so at the Eve Appeal, we do three things. We fund medical research, as you've said, and we produce information.

That's high-quality, PIF-ticked. PIF is the patient information forum. That's gold standard health information. And as Shona said, and you know, it's the Wild West out there when it comes to evidence-based health information. There's loads of it online. A lot of it is not trustworthy. And then the third thing that we do is we run a nurse-led service, which provides quality information. And with the number of women, it's around 700,000 women sitting in one waiting list or another for a gynecological referral. They need information. They have questions. Online is a very good place to find that information. That's what people do now.

What we find is that we consistently, we're only talking about prevention, so prevention and early diagnosis, so people knowing the signs and symptoms of the five gynecological cancers, knowing they even exist and knowing their bodies, their gynecological anatomy, not down there, not down below, not my waterworks, but actually knowing those five organs that they could experience signs or symptoms in that they need to know about. go and get help. They might not be cancer, but they know it's. So it's really important that they experience good quality information. And what do these posts look like? Well, so we produce a range of posts. We always use proper words. We don't put asterisks in the word vulva or vagina because that perpetuates the problem. And shown has talked about how these things can be regulated. What doesn't help with AI and algorithms is not using those words appropriately. But that's how a lot of content creators get around things. So we describe anatomy. We do line drawings, label diagrams, and have really clear posts that have gone through a review process and are shared by the NHS,

etc. And Jane referred to being blue-ticked. We are blue-ticked. That describes sign, symptoms, risk factors and the parts of the anatomy. And Tanya, you saw one of these posts and it changed your life. What happened? Yes. I have a condition called Lycein sclerosis. And, And I never knew anything about it before I saw a post, which was by the Eva-Pill and Dr. Aziza C-C-C-C. And the post was regarding, is it ongoing thrush or is it something else? So I listened and I followed the symptoms and also the Eva-Pill talk about checking your vulva for changes, things that are different. And I had a look and I realized it's not the way it should be, I need to do something about it. it so I went and got a vulva biopsy but if it wasn't for that post on Instagram then I may not know

of known that I've ever had this condition I'm out of just as women do in it we just get on with it okay maybe it's fresh maybe it's not but now I know that the actual condition that I do have through the either pills work I also know that if it's left untreated it can actually turn into vulval cancer. So there is a lot of seriousness behind why these posts need to stay visible to the average person. Just to what you were saying, you know, you're giving women the information. And this month, your charity shared an illustration of the vulva anatomy. What happened? It was on Instagram. And what happened? Yeah. So the interesting thing about that this diagram is it's a diagram which could be seen in a biology textbook. It's not a photograph. It's a very stylized

illustration of but accurate of the vulval anatomy. And it's labelled and then it has a caption which very clearly roots it in health information. And we're in the month of our get lippy campaign, which is literal get lippy as in speak out and loud without stigma, taboo, shame about the issues. Well, there's an irony. And for the first time ever, so we've experienced shadow banning, which is very hard to pin. We've also experienced having sensitivity filters put over our post. I saw that. I looked at your Instagram before I came on and so one of the posts had this sensitivity. Well, so first of all, that post was completely removed, just removed, without warning. And we appealed and said in terms of community guidelines, this is health information. It's

been through the PIFTIC process. We've shared it before. We appealed and we failed on appeal. And they gave us a warning to our site, a warning. And then two days ago, without any explanation, the post has now been reinstated but with the sensitivity filter which again great it's been reinstated but a lack of transparency about the process of so what happened there but also a sensitivity filter doesn't really help people

who are casually scrolling online and want to pick up health information what's the post? The post is an anatomical diagram with labels of the vulval anatomy and then a caption which is around what you need to check for

and vulval cancer. And when it comes to shadow banning, how do you know that something has happened or that they've banned the post? Because you can still see it on your page. You just don't know. Really low engagement. And it's interesting the whole kind of issue around the kind of blue tick.

Because obviously we're blue ticked. We are the leading gynecological cancer charity in the UK sharing this information. But that doesn't really seem to shield you from that. And you can see the differences in it. in engagement with different posts depending on what you are posting. We want to prevent every single case of cancer that we can. We want to destigmatise talking about gynecological health.

We can only do that if we can actually post accurate information. And Tanya, as you said, had you not seen the post, I mean, it would have been a very different situation for you. Yeah, because I have seen a post, I have had a vulva biopsy, I have had a diagnosis, I've now been giving treatment. but I could still be untreated and eventually it could last or turn into vulva cancer. So for me, it's really, really important that the message that the Eva pill sends out is received by everybody because something just as basic as checking your vulva every month can actually save your life.

And I don't think Instagram is looking at it from that perspective. It's more sexual or nudity. and it's not that it's education, this is going to save somebody's life. Even if it's one person, it's still going to save somebody's life. And Athena, Eva Peel, along with a number of other charities

and health professionals, that you've signed an open letter to Meta, asking for an explanation. What would you like platforms like Instagram to do? We would really welcome a discussion to understand how this process is working, what the technology is, and how we can successfully put our case

quickly have content reinstated. I mean, what Shona said about, you know, sometimes the time has passed, you know, with a campaign which suddenly then, you know, we're still not knowing what. For example, the oversight board at Meta only consider a number of appeals that have failed. They don't consider all of them. But that process can take two, three weeks. It's also really hard to complain. So the only place really to complain to is offcom.

That's a long process. Interestingly, off-com complaints procedure, you can't send them links or photographs. You have to describe. So I have to describe the post, which is not, again, really how people are receiving health information online. It's a visual medium and it's, you know, links to the post are really needed. The DSA, the Digital Services Act doesn't apply in the UK. It's EU law. We really need to look at that.

So there is a place where we can go. But primarily, come together platforms. You're really important at reaching people and getting information out. Let's talk about how we can make this better for everyone. This is about health. Well, META have told us, they say user content surrounding women's health, AG period, and menopause are allowed on their platforms, and there are no restrictions in their organic content policies

regarding the discussion of these topics or discussion of menstrual health in general. They say they consult with leading health organisations to identify health misinformation, likely to directly contribute to imminent harm to public health and safety. They say they work with nearly 100 certified third-party fact-checking organisations covering more than 60 languages around the world to debunk misinformation. You're actually both on, we're very lucky to have got you in the studio

because we've kind of, you swerved on your way to Westminster because you've got a meeting this morning with Labour MP, Emily Darlington, who's called a backbench debate on this topic. So what are you going to ask her? We're going to present her with the facts. I mean, it's fantastic to have a response from META. We haven't had a response to any of our online or emailed or delivered letters. So that's fantastic that they're happy to move forward on a discussion.

But Emily is really usefully leading a debate on this to make sure that MPs are aware of the issues and really behind the sense of really supporting. women's health with much better and safer online tools. Tanya being living proof. Yes, I am the proof. And I'll just be letting her know what it's like when it comes from a lived experience perspective of how this has helped my life and how it's stopping from helping other women's lives. Athena and Tanya, thank you so much.

And good luck with the rest of your morning. I will let you continue on your journey now. And thanks for stopping by. Thank you. 84844 is the text number. Now, once overlooked and underfunded, women's sport is now undergoing rapid change. My next guest wants to be at the heart of that change.

Today, launching a global women's sport initiative, which will, for the first time in the UK, give athletes a stake in the business they're at the centre of. I'm joined by Alex O'Han, who has a very impressive CV, Starting Life as the co-founder of the online forum site Reddit with over 120 million daily users, shaping how conversations and communities form on the internet. In recent years, he's turned his attention to women's sport.

Today announcing he's bringing his all-female track and field meat series, Athlos, to London. Alexis, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me. It's absolutely our pleasure. Athlos, tell us all about it. Tell us about the name. So this is a chance to put these incredible,

incredible athletes on the grandest stage possible. You know, we all tune in for them during the Olympics. And the thing I couldn't get out of my head was we were wrapped with attention, the biggest brands of the world, fullest stadiums, millions and millions of viewers. And then these athletes seemed to disappear for the four years in between. And one of the things that motivated me to start Athlos was then when I spoke to some of these athletes, Shakari Richardson, Gabby Thomas, Tarr Davis-David-Wittal, I found out how little money they made from their championships in between. Before Athlos, I think the top prize

was $30,000. Yeah. And so we said, okay, we'll double that. And let's see what happens. And we've now had back-to-back meets in New York over the last two years. Millions of people have tuned in, sell-out crowds, tons of just entertainment delight, some records broken and a spectacle. And we knew if we wanted to go global and really build this league out, the place we had to go first was here in London. Why is that? Well, this is a very rabid fan base when it comes to athletics, period. I actually saw a Diamond League meet here in London a couple of years ago, and I was blown away by the scale of it. And then, you know, I've actually spent a lot of time here in London over the last couple of years.

I bought 10% of the Chelsea Women's Football Club, and I've really, really enjoyed all of that and come to just really truly admire the level of fandom for sport broadly, but of course, specifically for athletics. Absolutely, and women's sport. And as you just mentioned, you made that $26.5 million investment in Chelsea Women's Football Club last year. And you've spoken about rewriting the business model around women's sports. So what's broken with the current one? Well, look, the first thing I noticed was actually back in 2019 with the Women's World Cup, where similar to what I saw with athletics and the Olympics, the whole world paid attention to these footballers every four years.

And especially United States, most Americans, football or soccer, a women's sport, because the American women have been so dominant, and the American men, less so. And it just didn't make sense to me, these amazing athletes would get all this attention and then sort of go silent for another few years in between when they had millions of followers on social media.

In my world, spending 15, 16 years, building and turning around Reddit, the free market of attention is the internet, social media. And at the end of the day, you might not think these these athletes are worth the investment and certainly a lot of the status quo didn't. But when you looked at the followers, when you looked at millions of people tuning in to see what these athletes are talking about, what they're having for breakfast, what they care about, that attention is valuable. And that was the disconnect I saw in the market back in 2019 when I started Angel City in the United States. And

certainly what I saw was the potential for the Chelsea Women's Football Club when I invested here. There is a huge opportunity because sport traditionally, with the exception of tennis, has missed the value of the women's game, right? No one would debate that women's tennis is any less valuable or interesting or compelling than men's. Absolutely. And so, you know, I don't think that could be, I don't think that necessarily means every single sport will end up that way.

But I certainly think there are a tremendous number of sports where the women's game can be as valuable as the men's. And that's where I've been putting my money. And as you've said, you know, it kind of inspires a generation and we enjoy watching it. And, you know, you're speaking to a very converted audience here. How much of this is about the sport and how much of it is about money, though? You are an entrepreneur after all. I look, obviously I'm married to Serena Williams.

I have two daughters. I'm very public about where my values lie and how motivated I am to see this business success through because I want to create that world that my daughters will grow up in. And that is all true. And yet I still frame all of these investments through the lens of business, not because I'm a soulless capitalist capitalist. but because if you can prove that these things work, not just work, but thrive in the market, you now have your mic drop moment for getting the things you want accomplished, you know, in society, right?

You can make a change. You can actually push that. When I think about, you know, if I spent the last five, six, seven years investing the same dollars in, you know, a nonprofit to talk about how important it is for, you know, girls to get into sports or for women's sports to be supported. I think it could have made an impact. And that's not to begrudge, you know, Billy Jean King is one of the reasons why I can do what I do, right? And the nonprofits have a role to play. But when I looked at what was missing back in 2020, it was proving the business model out. And once you've done that, right, we've had, you know,

you've seen the valuations explode in the United States. There's now a billion dollar women's basketball team in the WNBA. You know, these are rooted in real revenue numbers. And once that happens, you know, you'd have to be some kind of crumudgeon to not think that these women deserve what they're getting now. We don't like to define people by their spouses here on Woman's Out, but you are married to one of the most successful sports stars of all times, Serena Williams. So I just wonder how much you've learned about the world of women's sport from her. It's, it's funny. She actually tried to talk me out of it when I said I was going to start a women's football club in the States. And it wasn't because she didn't want to

to see it exists in the world. In fact, we were watching our national team. We were at Wimbledon watching our women, you know, do a great job at the World Cup. And I was sort of remarking to her as Little Olympia was running around in her Alex Morgan jersey. Like, wouldn't it be nice one day if she played? And without missing a beat, Serena said, well, not until they pay her what she's worth. And so she had lived firsthand through, you know, the troubles of, you know, an industry that was not yet ready for her to ascend in the way that she did and all the things she had to deal with along the way. So much of women's sports has been mired, I think, both in people with good intentions who I think have held it back because they looked at it as a charity and they thought,

oh, well, of course, we'll do this. This is like a nice thing for the girls to look up to. Or from people who just simply didn't think that it was as valuable and so didn't put it in the places where it could get the air time, the coverage. And, but I knew firsthand what was possible, because if you look in the last 10 years of U.S. Open finals, more Americans have tuned in, I think, for seven of the 10 finals for the women than the men. So it goes without saying, certainly the United States, and I have a good antidote for this about the UK, there's real parity here in the sport. And what that took was excellence and equity. It was reported earlier this year that Serena's re-end. into the drug testing pool, hinting that she might be coming back?

Is she going to come back? Is she going to confirm this? She's a hero to so many of us. We're definitely not making any news here. But I, look, I think it's really telling and it's certainly heartening to see how excited people were, even at seeing that news. But, no, I'm, look, I'm locked in. Locked in on Athlos, focus there. We're not making any news.

But I do think, you know, there was a moment for me. The reason why I knew it was time for Chelsea was because the women. had won back-to-back euros. And, you know, I understand, look, this country invented the sport of football. There's a tremendous pride in a tradition here. And that was the moment, the back-to-back euros was the moment where I knew, okay, I need to now invest in English women's football and in the WSL because, again, you see this shift in the consciousness. When a whole, when a group of school kids, girls and boys get to go to school feeling so incredibly proud about bringing it home twice like dominance.

Now, again, you start to change perceptions. Yes. And it starts to really resonate that women's football is just as exciting, just as dynamic, just as important. And it kind of inspires a generation. I want to talk you about something that comes up a lot here on Woman's Hour.

And this is actually to do with Serena and how she's become an advocate for maternal health. Yes. And this followed her own extremely traumatic birth in 2017. And that was with your eldest daughter. So she had a pulmonary ambulance and underwent several surgeries. I imagine that was an incredible difficult time for you.

And she said that she wasn't listened to. What insight did that experience give you about the experiences of women? You know, I remember preparing for that as any expecting father would. I went into it just expecting like this was going to be fairly straightforward. you know, we have access to some of the best care you could imagine, you know, in the United States, which is a very complex issue in our country, unfortunately. But what it opened my eyes to is the fact that, yeah, there was, you know, she was in the midst of basically diagnosing herself. She knew her body incredibly well, both as an athlete, but also just as a human. And, and, you know,

the best I could do was amplify her concerns and basically tell nurses and doctors, like, hey, really, it's time, like, listen to her. And to see how hard it was to get that message through, even for someone who, like I said, we're so blessed to have the resources we have was quite frustrating. I'd actually double down and I wrote an op-ed for the New York Times not too long thereafter about the importance of paid family leave,

which is not something we really have in the United States to speak of. And it's something that, you know, when I consider to not just her experience, experiences so many women, especially black women in the United States, not getting the care that they need and the maternal health crisis that exists. Another component in it is the fact that you've got a partner usually who's forced to be back at work, you know, pretty imminently thereafter. And when you're a situation like that, where, you know, it took us about a week to get out of the hospital. And then for the next probably three, four weeks, you know, she was pretty limited in mobility.

If I couldn't, I mean, it helped that I founded the company. But it also helped, that we had a paid family leave plan that my partner, now my partner, Caitlin, had put into place at Reddit, that I could take advantage of. And how many other partners, how many other husbands don't have that access? So it's a compounding effect. But absolutely that, you know,

the maternal health crisis, specifically the black maternal health crisis in the United States is a real problem. And it still hasn't gotten too much better. But it's a sad reminder of the work that we still have to do. I also want to ask you, as you just mentioned your life before women's sports took over. You mentioned you were co-founded Reddit.

For those of people who don't know, it's an online forum platform with over 120 million daily users. People use it for all sorts of things, campaign organizations, health advice, fandom. Online safety for young people and women is a big concern for our listeners. He left the company with concerns over the information it shares, sometimes misinformation. If you've designed Reddit today with what you know now, would you do it differently? Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I resigned in protest, gosh, five years ago now, citing very specific problems I had around violence on the platform, racism, all kinds of issues. And the good news was

that very public resignation did, you know, a month later, push them to make those changes. And it did get a lot better as a result. I think the biggest challenge today with social media is the fact that it's called dead internet theory, probably, I would say half of all the content you see on social media is in some way fake. It is either, you know, abotted comment, AI written, AI generated content to begin with, or in some way just compromised. And one of the things that happened with that chat GPT moment three years ago was we blew past something called deterring test where you can now easily sort of replicate or sort of trick someone into thinking that there is a human on the other end when it's really AI. And so I'd say all of social media has

this problem and the next wave, if I were building something today, I think the next version of social media is going to have some kind of verifiable humanity, but in a way that does not involve like scanning retinas or some of the other things that have been proposed. That is actually something that has been built and proposed. And so there is this fine line, certainly around privacy that's really important respect, but also like user experience. There's going to have to be some way that people are going to want to sort of verify or prove that humanity, but that doesn't, in a way to make sure that what they're consuming is actually real and not compromised in some way. And there hasn't been a good solve. You know, today, I'd say the most valuable,

quote unquote, social media that I have in my own life is a group chat. And so group chats have become the source of real alpha now. And why? Because it's verifiably human. But it's not terribly new technology those have been around for a while and I think there's going to have to be some new wave of social that solves for this because we increasingly turn to these spaces for information and even if you think about your AI experience if you use any of them whether it's google's gemini chat chippy t clod they're largely trained on social media platforms like reddit and others and if we know that those platforms are majority compromised yeah that is what is then informing the aIs that you're querying and so So something has to give.

And I'd expect a new wave to have to emerge here in the next 12 to 24 months because it is just such a problem that people are not waking up to. And it has real implications, right? The obvious thing that people use it for is commercial sort of gaming, you know, artists will use it when they launch a new album to fake downloads and make them look more, more popular. And you're seeing versions of it where businesses are sort of. Astro-Turfing their products. But when you talk about things like health and well-being, like it's wild to me in the United States. I don't know if it's the case here,

but we've seen this surge of, there's a variety of peptides now that are being basically recommended by TikTok influencers. So beyond JLP ones, which are quite well regulated, but this gray market or even black market of injectable peptides that have now become a big part of the American sort of underground culture of people basically self-diagnosing, self-medicating.

And it's a wild, wild west. Yeah, very wild west type situation here. Alexis, it's been a fascinating conversation, but you are taking on a huge venture. So I'm going to ask you a question that lots of women get asked, but I don't think a lot of men get asked. Do you ever have doubts? Do you ever suffer with imposter syndrome? And how do you get your work life balance?

I mean, who is looking after the kids when you're so busy? Yeah, it's weird. I want to tell you, like, from an imposter syndrome standpoint, I think... Be truthful. I absolutely have doubts. I think any entrepreneur feels a tremendous weight of all the things that you just know can go wrong. Then the way to ultimately be, I think, least for me, my way of ultimately being a successful entrepreneur is then basically compartmentalizing

those things. You do have to balance a kind of irrational self-belief with a never-ending, crushing weight of all the things that go wrong every day. And so I don't, I think I, and I, and credit to my parents, they armed me with a sort of tremendous foundation of confidence in my ability to just keep going, not necessarily an ability to always be successful, mind you, but an ability to keep going and enduring, chewing the glass. And so I have no doubt that I will continue to be able to chew glass. And for me, that is most of entrepreneurship, is just simply being willing to chew the glass and keep staring into the best. But the pain of that metaphor. I mean, I, thankfully, I've never literally chewed glass, which makes a lot easier. And also, too,

the perspective of, you know, my sister, shout out, Amy. She, She's a nurse and she used to be, she was a pediatric nurse for a little bit, but she's, she's an RN. And when I hear about the work she has to do, I'm like, thank God I don't have to do that work. I could not do that work. And so I know I get to be an entrepreneur. I get to build businesses in the grand scheme of things. That is an amazing way to be able to make a living. And I get so much joy from it that it never is too hard to go all in on.

And then to the other point, you know, I, been so blessed, you know, as many accolades as Serena has on the court, in business, everywhere else, she's an incredible mom. She's an even better, if you can believe it, she's an even better mother to our two children than she is an athlete. Yeah. And so we, we ebb and flow. You know, when she was on tour, I was able to build my firm from a kind of default remote standpoint so that I could basically be wherever she and our daughter were. And so I could travel and that was again the benefit of being an entrepreneur, especially in tech, was I could orient my life and my business around our family's needs as she's retired. She's now been able to

basically do the same for me. And so again, it ebbs and flows and it's never perfect. Don't get me wrong. But all those things help tremendously. And it also doesn't hurt. I've got my mother-in-law right up the street, father-in-law right up the street. Community. My dad snowbirds with my step mom every winter. So we got we got plenty of family around too. Wonderful. Alexis O'Hanian, thank you so much for coming in to speak to me. And good luck. We look forward to it. September 18th here in London and actually just before coming out here, I learned from our team. We've already sold 10% of the tickets. So look, the UK loves our athletics. We really do. And we like, yes, good. We will be there cheering. Thank you. September the 18th. We look forward to it. 84844 is the text number now.

Who would you pick to backpack round the world with on a shoestring budget? No phone, no air travel, and the potential of winning a £20,000 cash prize. In Race Across the World, the BBC reality show, teams of two are often made up of couples, best friends. And when I did the celebrity version last year, I did it with my dad, where we tackled a mammoth 5,900 kilometres through Central America. And this year, Margot O'Field has made waves with audiences for her unique perspective online. pairing up with her brother-in-law Mark, they were brought together by a dying wish

of her late sister and Mark's wife, Julia. Margot's inspiring optimism and honesty about the experiences of grief struck a chord with viewers. Margo, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello, Anita. Thank you for having me. You can start a sing-song any time. So that was you starting to sing-along with fellow passengers on a train to Kyrgyzstan.

That's right, yes. Well, we couldn't speak the same language and there's the international language of singing and dancing. So we went for it. So I mentioned in the opener about how you found yourself, how you sort of came about to sign up with your brother-in-law. But tell me in your own words what happened.

I heard about race across the world. I looked and I just had this feeling I have to go with Mark. I know my sister, Julia, had wanted us to become true friends. And this idea came into my head. And the moment I asked Mark, he just said yes. And my friends were like, what are you on? This is the most insane. They knew the history, typical in laws.

You know, we just really, we're not, not, we haven't got that energy. We're different. Well, tell us the history. What happened when you first met him? Well, I thought, take us back. What year was it? And what was that first in? 1982 or something like that's a long time ago.

I was 15. He was 23. He thought I was a wild and loud, which 15 year old girl in Liverpool. I was enjoying my life. You, wild and loud, in this. beautiful bright dress with silver silver sleeves, which you look fantastic by the way. Oh, thank you. And what did you think of him? And I just thought, I thought he was a little bit boring. And Judgey, he used to have this look on his face and look at me all the time. And he did

this for years. And I was like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to go with that. And so we just rubbed along in that in-law, you know, there's a certain way, isn't it? And Julia would like be the referee between us. And then she got ill, sadly, in 2019. And I think Mark began to say, see that, and I think this is true of a lot of people who are like, alively and optimistic and everything, I am strong and I can be supportive and I really helped him nurse Julia and we started to really respect each other. Yeah. You know, I respected his steadiness and what he could get done

and he respected that the emotional and support I could give Julia. Describe your relationship with your sister, Julia, before she was ill. Oh, Julia and I, we were just good, good buddies. The things she's good at and things I'm not good at, and we complimented each other. We used to have, you know, great times, doing fun things together. Lots of typical things, but also we used to like to, yeah, we used to like to go to exhibitions and have a little party. I'm not emphasizing the party, shows, you know, gigs.

We were just really, really close and really were there for each other. And I'm sure lots of our listeners can relate to and resonate with how family relationships can shift after a loss and you can become closer to certain people. How did you find your bond with Mark deepen? I mean, as you mentioned, during the process of caring for Julia as well. What did he see in you? What did you see in him? Well, his steadiness and his absolute,

I am going to be there for her 100%. And I think he saw the same in me and we are going to put aside our differences and put aside our own needs to be there for her. When you're caring for someone who's that sick, you really are there for them and you have to stand, you know, and get it done. And it was one of her last wishes.

I know. What did she say? I know. Well, I wasn't actually there when she said it to him, but it was the last conversation they had, she said, you and Margot, you have to be there for each other. You know, you really have to, you know, nurture this friendship. And he really took it to heart.

He took it seriously. And we were doing the normal things together, trying to be friends. But the race, we got on the race. I mean, what an example to bring you together. I know, you know, it'll either fix it or... Yeah, well, absolutely. I mean, it's so tough. Well, all the other pairs, they're very much together.

They're very much, you know, they all know each other really, really well. It was like, you know, sharing a bed. There's a famous episode when we share a bed together for the first time, which is the oddest thing. Yeah, in-law, I mean, yeah. And Mark gets out this, this, what he calls a modesty cocoon, and snuggles himself down in it, and he's in there going, you know, and it's like, okay.

But also, you don't know unless you're in it. Like, if you've got a slugusty, you've got to sleep and you just kind of get on with it. Yeah. There are some wonderful moments on the show where you're drinking vodka for breakfast on trains, dancing with local women. You're delighted seeing camels in the snow. What so many, I mean, what a trip as well.

I mean, the ancient silk roots. And it's just breathtaking to watch. What are some of the sort of highlights for you, one of the most amazing places? Well, one of the highlights was when I had what people are calling Amargo Day. and unfortunately it was a day when Mark wasn't well. And a lot of women have been talking to be saying, I need a Margo Day because I couldn't do anything about it. He's sick. He's in bed.

Yeah. What's Margo Day? Well, for me, the Margo Day was the day in the sunshine. I ordered wine and dumplings, which in Georgia, that's the food. I sat and I had my moments. You spent your money on the wine and dumpling. It was surprisingly good value in Georgia. It was surprisingly good value. Yeah, very good.

Amazing. And I just felt so amazing after this. I felt renewed and everything. So women are saying, I need it. And Amargo Day, you would have an Anita day. And whatever filled you up, it could be going to the park, reading a book. It could be, you know, climbing up a mountain. Whatever fills you up, that's what Amargo Day would be.

And women are very bad at giving themselves their days, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, giving themselves those moments. And so there's a lot of people have been saying about that. Well, it's also, I think, your general optimism and openness about various things, but particularly grief has really resonated with a lot of people. Is that part of your process to talk about it openly? I think talking about it and also allowing the duality of grief to live next to joy, that you can allow yourself that space to be very, very sad, absolutely allow that,

but allow that the moments of joy and to embrace them and embrace people. And when people were giving me hugs or dancing with me, there's an intensity. And it's just absolutely, it's life. affirming and after loss you need things that are life affirming and I think on the race Mark and I you know embrace that How's your relationship now? Are you still speaking?

We are still speaking. That's good. I'm not talking to my dad That's not true I love your dad I'm a fan of your dad Yeah he's a good one The final is tonight What would winning symbolise

For you and Mark No spoilers obviously but The whole race Yeah is something To get to the final And to get to get to if we get to the checkpoint because it's not looking good for us at the moment. We've got so little money.

It will be incredible. I completely agree. I don't think this is one. I mean, obviously, whoever wins, amazing, but it's genuinely one of those where it is the process and the experience. And you will have it forever. Yeah. Absolutely, Anita.

And I wonder, you know, what Julia might make of that. She would, she'd think we were mad, but she'd be so, so happy for us. So happy. You've been an absolute joy to watch this series. And I want to make you the best of luck. Thank you. Thank you. And the final episode of Race Across the World will air tonight Thursday at 8pm on BBC 1. Margo. Thank you. Thank you, Anita. Thanks.

She's walked in here in the most joyful dress as well. It's brilliant. 84844 is the text number. Now, if you read, if you've read and loved the author Enid Blytheon's boarding school series, Mallory Towers, as a child, you're in for a treat. My next guest is the director, Emma Rice, formerly artistic director at Shakespeare's Globe in London. She's created a theatre show version, bundling all those books from the 1940s together, adding a splash of magic and plenty of surprises. There's even a bit of a midsummer night's dream within her latest production. The show is currently touring the UK, and it's very timely as this year is the 80th anniversary of the book of the first book in the Mallory Towers series being published. Emma, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello.

So for people who don't know, give us a brief overview, Mallory Towers. Mallory Towers, a group of girls, 11 or 12, meeting. at Paddington Station, they get the train down to Cornwall, and they start their first year at boarding school together on the cliff tops. Did you read it growing up? I didn't. No, I was a famous five girl, a secret seven. Me too.

All the adventures. Yes. No, somebody, because I lived in Cornwall many years with Nehigh Theatre, somebody told me in my 30s, did you know that there's a children's books, a series set on the Cornish cliffs? And I was like, no, I didn't. So yeah, I'm new to it. So let's talk about this brilliant production.

So the show is all about the girls and they're on stage. There are adult characters, but you don't see them, see them, you just hear them. And that's like Miss Grayling is played by the brilliant Sheila Hancock. So why did you choose to just focus on the girls on stage? Well, it's classic in children's literature, is you have to get rid of adults. You just have to. So Lord of the Flies, William Golding, which was written about at the same time, decided to crash a plane. But Hinid Blyton put our girls into a dormitory and to have adventures.

I also, I've got adults actors playing the girls. I didn't want to have adult playing the cat. I needed the teachers, the adults, to feel bigger. So it's quite nice. That Miss Grayling is animated, for example, which gives a little bit of sense of scale. So we really believe that these adult actors are 11-year-old girls. For fans of the books, the characters are broadly still there.

There's Daryl. There's recognisable from the original with her hot temper. her, Mary Lou, the timid one who needs to find her voice. The girls have regional accents, which are all authentic. Yes, except I think there's a French accent, which isn't authentic, but everybody else is. How much do the girl group's stereotypes still serve in today's world? Oh, I wouldn't call them stereotypes. I think they're archetypes.

I feel I know every one of these girls. And more to the point, I feel I've been every one of these girls at different points in my life. I've been Sally, Hope, being too bossy and trying to take. charge. I've been Darrell Rivers with a temper and I've been timid. You know, I was timid at school. So I think they're archetypes and they work like that. They fizz off each other. We don't want to spoil the story, but there is a twist in your updated character of Gwen. She's the mean one and she's very mean in your version. But there's a reason and it comes out in high drama. So let's hear a bit.

We can clear this up together and start again. Put the scissors down, Gwen. I'm sure it was a mistake. This wasn't a mistake. This is who. I wish she'd never come back. Could you come this way, please? And then we hear Sheila Hancock there. I mean, it's very powerful, very moving and also very funny.

Yes, all of those things, which sums up childhood. Yeah. I think I really wanted, I think adults forget how intense it is being a child and how intensely children feel emotions, understand what's going on around them and find it very hard to articulate it. So I really wanted to have that level of distress in a child because I think we forget what it was like.

And you're learning about your emotions. I mean, we're still figuring out as adults. Yeah, but you've got no context as a child, you don't know it's going to be okay. You don't know that you will endure, that you will survive, that you will learn. And I think Gwendolyn really epitomizes that. You hear how raw that little girl is

and how desperately unhappy she is. years, which I feel it's really important. There's so much hope in Mallory Tower, so much joy, so much kindness and friendship. But actually, there has to be that grit in the oyster as well, which is how hard it is growing up and how different children have different things going on that they're managing. This isn't a retelling of the original book series. You've blended the books and you've even sprinkled reminders of Enid Blighton's other works in there like Famous Five. And there's echoes of other productions like The Wizard of Oz. You always include, Dorothy's red shoes in your shows. Why? I mean, we love it. Well, I love red shoes. It was one of the,

the version of the fairy tale red shoes was one of the first productions I ever made. And I, I feel it represents female freedom, female creativity, female passion, and I love to put my characters in red shoes. And then also you bring in a Midsummer Night's dream into this. How and why? Well, there's so many answers to this. In the books, in the fifth, at Mallory Tower as they do a pantomime. And when I first started adapting it, I thought I would do it, but it's quite hard to do a little bit of a pantomime and to make it read,

to make it funny. And I also, I wanted this production to feel virtuosic. I wanted to feel that this little group of girls was growing up, that they start with one, I think we played a bit of Sing, Sing, Sing, that they start with this lightness and then they grow into this virtuosic

ensemble. And I thought it would be good to sprinkle in some Shakespeare, but personally, Mid-Sum Night's Dream was when I fell in love with theatre as a child and then I did it at the Globe and I love it. And I played Titania when I was at drama school. I feel it's got all of the romance and I wanted to put a little bit of that poetic romance in at the end.

And you can do what you want. So bloody lootly. Good for you. Now the original Mallory Tales was set in the 1940s so post-war period. Darrell was sent to boarding school in 1947. But you begin and end this production in present day before taking the audience back. Can you explain why?

It's really a bridge. It's a bridge for the audience and it's a bridge for younger audience members to think this isn't a period piece. It's not nostalgic. These girls really resonate with today and what these girls are going through resonates with today and the fantastic moral decisions they're making is what we need to be wrestling with young people and old people alike. So it tells everybody this is not about the past, this is about now. Yeah, because you do wonder,

you know, oh, Mallory Towers, oh, is it going to still resonate with a modern day audience? Do this, does it stand up? How accurately did she actually capture boarding school life of the time? Well, I'll never know. I didn't go to boarding school. I wasn't there. But my mum didn't go to boarding school, but she did go to a grammar school and all-girls grammar school in Dorset. And it was one of the things that made me want to do this piece is that her education was so passionate,

taught by a lot of women that didn't marry because of the war that devoted their lives to the education of other women. And my mum's got, was the first person to be educated in her family, loves French, loves literature, and gave it all to me. So I feel that that kind of passionate female education has really changed my life. What do you get from going on tour with your own company, the MRI's company? Oh, I love going on tour. I'm born to tour. We're taking stories to the people.

We're not expecting them to get on coaches to come to London. and we're saying we're going to come to you. It's a really diverse cast from lots of different parts of the country. How important was that? Really important to me. It's really important that all of the things that are true about the books,

you know, it's not a period pace. This is not about class and it's not about race. This is about a group of women that we can recognise our friends and neighbours now. These are women that you can see on the bus. These are women that we see in the pub. And it was really important to me that that cast represents that.

And going on tour, we're just enriches. the whole experience of our audiences and our casts. I thought we'll have to come and find you somewhere, won't we? Emma Rice, thank you so much. My absolute pleasure. Absolutely lovely to chat to you. And you can see Mallory Towers at the Theatre Royal in Brighton until the 23rd of May when the tour continues to leads,

Manchester, Liverpool, Guilford and London. Best of luck with it. Thank you so much. I must let you all know that Reddit haven't given Orminsauer a formal statement, but they have said that it's committed to the safety of its platform and the health of their community, which is why they've continually evolved the site-wide rules to support those priorities.

And I'm going to read a couple of your messages that have come in. I thought my father hated me and that I often hated him. He suffered from alcoholism and our relationship was fraught. Redemption and reconciliation finally came at the end of his life. He was 89 and very ill. Caring for him provided me with the realization that acceptance was more important than hanging on to years of bitterness. It was a miracle to him, say,

the day before he died, that there was nobody that could love me as much as he did. I do wish this epiphany happened sooner, but it has given me hope that a relationship that seems beyond repair can become one in which hate is conquered by love and compassion. And another one here on shadow banning, I had bilateral mastectomies over 10 years ago and received awful nipple tattoos. My daughter has been encouraging me to have them redone properly and sends me images of potential results, which gives me confidence and hope that I could one day look more normal, it would be yet another blow to women like me if his brilliant tattoo artists who help were prevented from publishing.

That's it from me. Do join me tomorrow when Natalie Cassidy will be joining me on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, it is Danny Robbins here for years now on Uncanny. We have explored real people's potentially paranormal experiences. But one thing that listeners have often asked me is why don't we look at supernatural cases from the past. What you asked and we listened, our new series, Uncanny Cold Cases, takes a deep dive into

some of these stories, from the most haunted house in England to the original UFO abduction case. Can we make sense of these strange stories that have haunted history? Uncanny, cold cases, listen on BBC Sounds.