Woman's Hour - Alice Urbach, Your children's friends, Katrina and The Waves

Episode Date: May 13, 2022

‘Alice’s Book’ by Karina Urbach tells the story of Karina's grandmother Alice Urbach. Before the Second World War Alice wrote a cookbook called Cooking the Viennese Way! but when books by Jewish authors couldn't be distributed, Alice was taken off it. Karina talks about her family history, intellectual theft by the Nazis and her mission to restore Alice Urbach’s name to her cookbook.The Taliban have ruled that Afghan women will have to wear the full face veil for the first time in decades. It comes soon after the Taliban reversed their decision to allow girls to go to secondary schools. We catch up with Hasina Safi, who used to be the women’s minister in Afghanistan and is now a refugee in the UK, still living in an hotel. She joins Anita to discuss her reaction to this latest news and her hopes for the future of women in Afghanistan. Babies as young as six months recognise differences like skin colour according to research. So what’s the best way to talk to young children about race? Does it matter how diverse a child social circle is? And what about their parents' friendship groups? Tineka Smith is the author of Mixed Up: Confessions of an Interracial Couple and has a young son, and Uju Asika is an author, parenting blogger and has two teenage boys.Watching Eurovision tomorrow? Two hundred million people are expected to watch it, live from Turin. Representing the UK this year is Sam Ryder. He's doing well at the moment and is second favourite to win behind Ukraine. The UK really hasn’t done very well over recent years, but twenty-five years ago we won it with Katrina and The Waves and Love Shine a Light. Katrina joins us.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. Here's a question for you. What was the song that you gave birth to or that your child was born to? Did you have a playlist? Did it all go the way you'd planned it? What was the choice track that was playing

when your little baby greeted the world? The reason I ask is because a story caught my eye earlier this week, and I couldn't wait to share it with you, the Woman's Hour audience. Joyce M. Figueroa, 39 weeks pregnant, went to a Metallica concert in Brazil and gave birth at the venue as they performed this. That woke you up. Enter Sandman. What an entrance. So did your labour playlist work out quite as well?

What was the track that your baby was born to? Or did your playlist go out the window along with all your other plans? We could even compile our very own Woman's Hour birthing playlist this morning. I would love to hear from you. You can text me the usual way. 84844 is the number to text. You can also contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Or if you fancy dropping me an email, you can go to our website. And of course, I'd love to hear from you about everything we're talking about this morning. We're also going to

be sticking with your little ones a little bit later. But this time, the friendships that they make as they grow up. The question is is how racially diverse are your children's friendship groups? In fact, how racially diverse is your own friendship group for that matter? I'll be discussing the importance of this later in the hour. And it's Eurovision tomorrow, like you didn't know. The last time we won it. Anyone? Anyone? Correct, Sally in Shropshire. It was indeed Katrina and the Waves in 1997, 25 years ago. And Katrina will be joining me in the programme. But first, at the beginning of the week, we brought you an update from Afghanistan.

The Taliban have ruled that Afghan women will have to wear the full face veil, the niqab, for the first time in decades. Any woman who refuses to comply and ignores official warnings to male members of her family could see a male guardian jailed for three days. It comes not long after the Taliban reversed their decision to allow girls to go to secondary schools. A woman we're calling Aisha has sent us this voice note responding to the recent news. She's living in Kabul. Unfortunately, I don't have any good feelings about the situation for women in Afghanistan. During the Taliban regime, our lives changed already because I lost my job. I'm at home and I became sick from this kind of situation. There was no permission for us to come from home to the bazaar and alley, anything.

It is very difficult for us. Now, someone who's been watching developments in the country very closely is Hasina Safi. She used to be the women's minister in Afghanistan and is now a refugee in the UK, living in a hotel. Hasina Safi, thank you very much for joining us this morning. What do you make of the clip you've just heard from Aisha? Thank you very much, Anita, for the wonderful programme. And definitely I echo the words of Aisha. I think it's very brave of her that she says that it's difficult.

It's not difficult. It's horrible. It's dreadful. Because you take someone's freedom to breathe. If you don't give a person a choice of how to live, no matter what the circumstances is, so you very definitely imprison. So I would call that presently the women's situation in Afghanistan is very, very intentionally imprisoning them.

And how just how difficult is it for them to speak out? Anita, it's extremely difficult. Only those who are in that situation can understand. And we, as the movement strugglers who have struggled for the last two decades, can understand the horrible situation of no mobility, of no movement, if you really need it disastrously. So it's terrible. Are you in touch with women in the country? And what are they telling you about what life is like for them right now? I'm in constant touch with them because I think one of the things which I can do now is to at least respond to their messages. And that is what I can presently think of healing them. Most of them are really worried

about their safety and security, especially those who have worked in different positions, those who have worked. So presently, their safety, security is the first priority for them. For them, on the other hand, education has been one of the challenging issues since the beginning of the new academic year in Afghanistan. Children, girls getting prepared to school, and all of a sudden the doors were shut. So the same thing, access to female doctors is really difficult. And last but not least, on the whole, I think the employment issue, the food crisis, the economical crisis, going out on condition basis. As a result of the 40 years of war, there is a big number of widows in female-headed households.

So it's all like when you see as an Afghan woman, as someone who has been there, it's very, very disastrous and critical time for women back there. I am in contact on a daily basis. And it's really a very, very disappointing situation for them. Absolutely. I'm interested in what you've just said about how many widows there are, female-headed households. Just how is life different for them and just how harder is it? Thank you for bringing up the point, Anita. I think you will not agree with me more as a woman women, because we are the people who are quite independent in our economy, no matter less or more. But they are the people who have lost as a result of war, someone who very wholly were dependent on. And in the last 20 years, through our different initiatives, there was a hope that at least they can bring in something around the table to sit and share and eat with their

children. Just last month, which was one of our holy month, Ramadan, I had been in contact with a big number of widows. Of course course I could not help all of them but the little I could was that one news that they told me and they said Hasina after two three months we had meat in our dinner so like it's it's very Anita, what you say and what you feel in the situation you are in. So they are really figuring it out. The other thing is, I think, the humanitarian aid that presently is going to Afghanistan, who is making sure that it is really getting to the very relevant and needed widows and through who? Because if from the other one side we stop the women from work and mobility, so they had been the agents of connection with the women,

who is ensuring the quality and the effectiveness of the process. What did you feel when you heard the news that the Taliban had ruled that all women must now wear full face covering, was why the niqab? How did you feel about it when you first heard that? I have no words because from the last seven months, almost every week, I'm hearing disappointing news. So every night when I sleep in the morning, the first thing which I'm waiting is a terrible news. From day one, when they came, they closed the women's ministry. After that, they stopped the women in the leadership to go to office. After that, they stopped the women hostesses wearing makeup in the media. After that, they stopped them from going to TVs,

from higher education. After that, they gave a directive of separation and segregation of the places where they had to work together. So these are all the steps which they have taken so far. So there is nothing that I'm expecting good or positive about women. It seems there is no other agent

that in the de facto structure, but it's all the women's mobility, the women's scarf, the women's dress, the women's movement, the women's speech. So it's all about women, nothing else. There is no national development priority. How far do you think they'll go? What else do you think the Taliban could do to restrict women's lives? I think there is nothing left but only to just abolish all the women within their houses. Are there demonstrations going on that you know of, or is it just too dangerous? No, there are demonstrations, as I know, but it's very, very risky for them because even the news that I have, when they are performing, they have done it, I think, in two, three places, but with some measures. But it's very, very risky for them because they are really followed up and steps are taken, which we all see that it's also

hidden from media. The news which is coming to media is, I think, maybe 5% what we see than the real news on the ground. Hasina, I'd like you to remind us what you achieved for women in your time whilst you were in Afghanistan, how things had changed and what you had achieved? To be very clear, Anita, we started from awareness, like after the first term of Taliban, we came to capacity building, then we moved to advocacy, then we moved to participation, and then we moved to meaningful participation, where we planned and designed our initiatives and programs ourselves. And all of a mothers, all the educated women can make a big difference only with education, with respect to oneself and with the confidence, inner confidence, which they have not to be afraid of moving forward, no matter whatever challenges we face.

Do you think there's anything you can do? Is there anything you feel you can do from the UK? I mean, it must be incredibly hard for you to hear what you're hearing, to get messages from women on the ground in Afghanistan, and you must feel incredibly powerless. Thank you, Anita, for the question. I think it's really, really difficult because they still think I'm a minister. They still think I have a lot of resources. They still think I can do things the way I was in an executive position there in the last year. However, it's not that I'm sitting there. What I'm presently doing, I'm passing out their messages. I'm responding to their messages and I'm coordinating for their safety wherever I know with different international groups,

hopefully just to give them hope that all time there is tough time, but we should not be hopeless. We should struggle and move forward. And I'd like to ask you about your own situation, because you came to the UK in September of last year, 2021, as a refugee. You were staying in a hotel last time. Is that still the case? Where are you now? Yes, presently I'm speaking with you from a room in a hotel.

Do you think it's acceptable that it's taken this long for the government to still not have found you some accommodation? I don't think it's acceptable. But Anita, when you put yourself in my position as what my women are back feeling in Afghanistan, to be very honest, I really don't know what I'm eating, what I'm wearing, what I'm living through. The only thing is that I'm trying to see how I can really help them.

However, I think the environment matters in my effectiveness to work. So this is and this has been a challenge, whereas it is not one of my first priorities. That is why I never consider that. And rather I consider working with coordinating with the women group, talking to them and things like that. How are you feeling? I'm trying not to start crying again, because like like that is the only thing which I cannot stop my heart is crying my heart is lately tearing in blood because it's very very difficult to be wanting to help but not being able to help.

And you talked about hope, that you're sending messages to women to stay, to remain hopeful. Where do you see the hope? I see the hope in humanity. I see the women in care, the hope in care. I see the hope in women's solidarity around the world. Because, for example, today is a good example of it. From day one that I have come, BBC Women's Hour has been frequently in contact with me. I think what I would take it as a hope for me is that tomorrow, if I'm not there, they would see what I could do in what Women's Hour did for me to pass out my message. So that is why I'm saying there is always hope

when people around you understand the situation and understand the need you have and within their own capacity, they want to help you. And do you hope that you'll be able to go home one day, Hasina? Oh, definitely. Definitely. If not in reality, in my dreams, I go every night. Hasina Safi, thank you so much for joining me this morning. And I'm sure we will be catching up with you again at some point. You can contact us about anything you're hearing on the programme this morning. If you're moved by what Hasina has just said talking about um women's rights or the lack of women's rights in afghanistan right now um 84844 is the number to text lots of you getting in touch about the songs that you were born to we're we're asking you about the the tracks that were playing when

you were born in hospital or or that was but when you were born in the hospital or when you were in labour, I should say. You probably don't remember what was being played when you were born. Janine says, when our last son was born, we were in the birthing suite in the hospital listening to Pick of the Pops. As my son came into the world at 1.30, they were playing the Smurf song. The midwife put a little white hat on our little blue baby. My husband is now known as Papa Smurf. Now, in Alice's book, How the Nazis Stole My

Grandmother's Cookbook, historian Karina Erbach tells the story of her grandmother, Alice Erbach, who wrote the best-selling cookbook, Cooking the Viennese Way, in pre-war Austria. Through meticulous research, Karina details her family history, highlights the intellectual theft carried by the Nazis so that they could profit from the persecution of Jewish authors and shares her account of the 80 year quest to restore Alice Erbach's name to her cookbook. And I'm holding the book in my hand. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Karina. When did you, it is such, there's so much in this story. So let's get into it.

When did you first become aware of your grandmother's story and what she'd done? Well, it was very confusing for me as a child to grow up in Germany. And there was this American grandmother, and I was always told that she was Viennese, but then had to go to England during the war, and now she was in America. And that was really never explained. Why was she as a Viennese living in America? What had she done in England during the war? So there were all these riddles. And the biggest riddle was the two cookbooks. I mean, we had these two cookbooks at home and one had her name on the cover, Alice Orbach, and the other one had a man's name, Rudolf Roche.

So I never really understood what had happened. And of course, in every family, there are lots of anecdotes and few facts. So one day, my American cousin gave me lots of letters and tapes and said, well, you solved this. And because I'm married to a fellow historian, he's a Russianist, Jonathan Haslam, and he is super at finding back doors. So he helped me to find lots of wonderful archives in London and in Washington and Vienna. And I finally solved the riddle. It's what a wonderful thing to be able to do

and then write about it. So let's go back in time because you take us back to Alice's childhood because I think it's really important to understand the context of where she grew up and what sort of family she was born into and what life was like for her in the 1920s. Yes, so she was this very spoiled daughter,

the dreamy daughter of a very rich, wealthy textile millionaire. And of course, the family lost everything after the First World War. But it was a Jewish upbringing in Vienna. She met all these very famous people, you know, Freud and his daughter Anna Freud. And she met Schnitzler and the author of Bambi, Felix Seiden and all these famous people. And so she had this very wonderful upbringing. And then, of course, after the First World War, she lost everything. She was a widow with two little children. Her husband had been absolutely useless.

He had been gambling away her whole inheritance. And she didn't have much confidence. She was on her own now and she thought she wasn't good at anything. But she had this one passion and that was cooking and that rescued her. And how unusual was it for a woman of her background to have a passion for cooking? Did women of that class cook? No, because she always, since the age of five, she wanted to become a cook. And of course, her family thought, oh, no, you know, a girl from a good family doesn't become a cook. You know, that was looked down upon. And she dreamt of opening a restaurant or a tea shop or a bakery.

And there's a very famous lady in Vienna, Anna Sacha, the Sacha Torte, the Sacha Tarte is named after. And, of course, Alice wanted to become one of these women, you know. OK, so she had no chance but of course after the first world war um everything was so i mean vienna was in a austria the whole of austria was of course in a horrible depression and um and women needed to work and needed to become inventive and she became an entrepreneurish kind of person overnight she started a catering business. That was completely unusual. The papers called it, oh, Alice Orba is bringing

Americanization to Austria. You know, now you deliver menus and whole four course meals to homes. And I mean, that was bizarre. But she did that and suddenly became very confident. She was delivering food to people's homes.

Yes. So ahead of her time and started a cookery school that became very successful because people signed up for her classes, didn't they? That's right. Yes. So she had a wonderful, very famous people coming to her cooking school, but also working class girls who wanted to become chefs and improve their chances in life. And so she had all these famous Austrian ballet dancers. The daughter of the British ambassador learned cooking at her school. So, yeah, she was terribly proud of her famous customers.

And so she already had a cookbook out. And I noticed in the book something that really stuck out for me. And this was pre the breakout of the Second World War, was her second cookbook. There were no photographs of her in the cookbook. Is that right? Well, in her first cookbook, that was in 1925. There were absolutely no photographs. And then, yes, you're absolutely right. And when she wrote her big, you know, 500 pages cookbook, which is also not just recipes.

It's about home economics what the americans call home economics so it's about how to run your house and how to do healthy cooking etc so in that book there were only photos of her hands and never of her face and that that was very odd i mean i saw that was weird because there were other photos of her students of her face. And that was very odd. I mean, I thought that was weird because there were other photos of her students, of her, they were photographed completely. But I'm not sure whether that was due because she had a very prominent Jewish nose.

So whether that was because of her face looking too Jewish. Interesting. So people would not have bought it? Or just it tells you, puts you into the time of Austria at the time? Yeah, I think so. I mean, there was, of course, a great anti-Semitism in Austria. But her publishing house was a German publishing house. So that might have been the reason as well that they didn't want to. I mean,

her surname, Orbach, is not a very Jewish surname. I mean, Jewish Orbachs and non-Jewish Orbachs. So that surname didn't give it away. She was actually asked to sign a contract giving up the rights to the book, wasn't she? Why was that? Yes, because in March 1938, of course, the Nazis march into Austria. And from then on, she wasn't an Austrian anymore. She was German. You know, all the Austrians became Germans. And that meant that the Nuremberg racial laws were applied to her. And from that moment onwards, she was in great danger.

And her son was thrown out of the university and her brother was arrested. So yes, she was forced by her publishing house to sign a declaration and the declaration included not just giving away the rights to that book, but to other books that she had already submitted. They hadn't been published yet. And she gave up everything. She had to sign this declaration. So you talk about in the book how her books were aryanized after the publisher was no longer able to distribute books written by Jewish authors. Tell us more about that. Yes, that's something that hadn't been researched before. And of course, I thought, oh, perhaps she was the only victim of this crime. And no, I was wrong.

And I have started a new field of research now. I'm quite happy about that. And because I found so many more cases of Jewish nonfiction authors who lost their authorship and the publishing houses were very clever. I mean, in Alice's case, for example, they gave the book to a man. It was this guy called Rudolf Roesch who was publishing it now.

They changed a few things. For example, they changed the introduction where Alice talks about how cosmopolitan food is. They Germanized that completely. And they also erased all the Jewish sounding recipes. For example, she had an omelet Rothschild, and that was now called omelet nature. So everything that was a bit Jewish in the book was taken out. And yeah, and they did that with other Jewish nonfiction books as well, medical books, legal books. And yes, I've found so many new cases. And I hope that, yeah.

I found all of that absolutely fascinating. And when you talk about how there were some books that, you know, of course, if you don't know who's written it, you can just claim it as your own, the amount of plagiarism that may have would have gone on. Yes, that's right. I mean, some people built their whole careers on these books. I mean, in the case of one of the medical books, you know, the guy who took over the medical book from from a Jewish author became very famous in post-war Germany and claimed to have written all these great medical books. And the actual authors, both of them committed suicide in 1942, because their life's work was taken away from them, of course. Absolutely heartbreaking. And then Alice's story in 1938, she moves to Britain. And you've got this great fact in this. I'm sure lots of our listeners are aware of it but in between 1933 and 1939 20,000 Jewish women uh fled to

Britain and they had to take up jobs as domestic servants and of course Alice is very well placed to become a cook but before we find out about where she was cooking and which stately home and who she was cooking for because all of this is fascinating. What did she make of the British cuisine do we know? Yeah well okay to be honest she wasn't very impressed you know she saw it was pretty bad but she was so thankful that Britain took her in you know she knew that she couldn't complain about it so she shut up about it most of the time but yes she later on said well it wasn't very good and the problem is of course you had great cuisine in the 19th century the Victorians were very good cooks but unfortunately you lost that gift between the walls I think and now of course it's back but yes she was pretty desperate coming to Britain and the ingredients were rubbish, she thought. So she wasn't happy about that.

Thankfully, we've got, we could get everything now. It took a while, but we've got that. Eventually, she moves to the US. What happens when she contacts the publisher to say, this is my work? Yeah, that's quite interesting because she comes back in 1949 for a visit to Vienna. And of course, Vienna is a depressing gray city in the postwar era. And the bookshops were pretty empty. But in one bookshop, she suddenly sees her book in the shop window.

And of course, with the name Rudolf Roesch, the author's name Rudolf Roesch. And she was completely flabbergasted. And she was immediately writing to this publisher and said very polite letters, actually, and said, could I please have my authorship back now? And I understand that, of course, you couldn't publish it during the war under my name, but I'm back now and could I please have this?

I mean, she's very sweet. She writes about 17 letters in the 1950s. And no, he never gives it back to her. He fobs her off. He has all kinds of excuses. He says, you signed a declaration in 1938. That's it. Wow. So how much does it mean to you that you're able to do this, that you're able to get her name back on the book and that you are able to tell her story? Oh, it's wonderful for me. It's a great, great success. And from the very beginning, I said to the publishing house, we don't want any financial compensation. We just want her name back on the cover. And finally, finally, after 80 years, we have achieved that. Wow. Congratulations. And it is a really remarkable and important story to hear.

Thank you so much, Karina, for coming in and talking to me about this book, Alice's book, out now, How the Nazis Stole My Grandmother's Cookbook. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Lots of you getting in touch about your pregnancy playlists. Lee says, my husband made a delivery playlist that he thought was hilarious. Push it, salt and pepper. I bleed the pixies. Oh, dear. The labor went on for 70 hours. And after a while, he realized it wasn't funny.

Luckily, she says, I was off my head on the drugs. Someone else says here, my son was born to I'm coming out by Diana Ross. It definitely wasn't intentional but the midwives were amused that's from Lara and someone else says put age spent ages putting together a playlist underestimated how quickly three hours repeats itself in labour put me off Judy still for months and Melanie says I had my daughter Amelia by c-section and as she was born the radio in the operating theatre was playing. I don't feel like dancing by the Scissor Sisters. Well, we're compiling our very own Woman's Hour birthing playlist this morning. 84844 is the number to text.

Now, when you look at your child's friendship groups, how diverse are they? Does your son or daughter hang out with a range of other kids from different backgrounds? Does it matter? How about your own friendship group? Think about it. Well, to discuss this and how to speak to children openly about race, I'm joined by writers Uju Asika and Tanika Smith. Uju is the creator of a new colouring book called A World for Me and You,

where everyone is welcome. And Tanika is the author of Mixed Up Confessions of an Interracial Couple. Welcome to you both. Why does it matter, Oju? Does it matter? Yeah, it absolutely does matter. I mean, we live in a diverse world and if you think about it, it's really sad that people get stuck in their sort of boxes, essentially. And I think all of us should be encouraged to, you know, get outside of our comfort zones, look around us, think, oh, you know, who am I mixing with? Do I have friends from different backgrounds, from different ethnicities,

even different political affiliations? It's all important. And, you know, especially to model that for your kids, because your kids, you know, even if your kid goes to a diverse school, and they don't see you having any kind of diversity in your social circle, that's the kind of background that they can grow up with. So this is something that you should, you know, everyone should try. And we'll get into how in a minute. What do you think, Tanika? Why is it important? What could it do for your child to have a diverse group of friends?

Well, first of all, I think that it's absolutely vital for parents to speak to their children about race. It's their responsibility because if you don't, someone else will. And children can pick these certain views up from school, from their peers, from stereotypical television programs. And, you know, our first concepts and ideas are created as children and they follow us through life. And it's up to parents to ensure that their children are part of a generation more than our previous generations that are racially understanding and accepting. And your son is five months old now. Congratulations. You've already started the conversations with your partner on why race is important. How are those conversations going? and, you know, it was quite important for us to be on the same page,

just especially because, you know, all of the situations we had been through racially that we talk about in our book. And so we were already on the same page, essentially, before he was born. And, you know, it was a bit different having conversations where I might ask my husband, you know, okay, what if someone, you know, calls him a racial slur and he comes home, you know, what would you say? And he'd be like, oh, you know, maybe, you know, sticks and stones. And I'm like, no, that's a different conversation. And I think that also shows the difference between conversations that black parents or parents of color have to have with their children that compared to white parents, where white parents, their conversation will probably more need to come from a place of the fact that they live in a world that celebrates whiteness and the fact that white children will grow up with white privilege, where black children or children of color or mixed race children, it's a very different world where parents are almost preparing their children

for how the outside world will treat them. So luckily, we had those conversations before pregnancy. And, you know, we were married, I think, for about five years before I was pregnant. So we made sure before that even came up that we were on the same page. Yeah. And you've literally written a book about it. What about having that conversation? Does it then extend to your in-laws as well? Sorry to bring in the in-laws and make it all awkward. You know, we have not had that conversation with our in-laws and we I have seen some consequences because of that. And so, you know, I would say it is very important.

I think, you know, I had a card business that was quite diverse and, you know, they were very supportive of that and they talked about it. And so I kind of always, you know, thought that, you know, we were always on the same page. But, you know, I think even if a family is, you know, racially accepting and understanding, you know, there's always nuances and the fact that, you know, they don't know what it's like to be black or a person of colour, and that it is important to have those type of conversations going forward, especially if there's a mixed race child in the family. But I do think that, you know, there's an opportunity for us to do that, and we will. And we're going to talk about it right now. So Uju, there'll be people listening going, okay, this, i would love for my child to be able to have diverse friendship groups but they don't even know where to start maybe they are

nervous about getting something wrong maybe they don't live in an area where maybe their school is very white what what would you say yeah i mean obviously if you live in a monocultural area or your kids go to a school where they're surrounded by only people who look like them, it can be difficult. But one thing I say, for instance, I wrote a book, Bringing Up Race. And this is really to encourage parents to have these conversations with their children and also to sort of open up, like look at broadening your horizons. So I always say if you live in an area that's completely white, well, look at how you can open up your child's world, you know, or bring the world into your home. You know, you can just, even starting with things like books, storybooks that really help a child understand and empathize with people from different cultures, or to understand that not everybody looks like them. And to, you know, watch TV shows, films, you know, bring different culture into your world. learn a language with your child you know

look for a language that might take you somewhere that you've never even thought about so not the sort of obvious french and spanish but try you know what about turkish or ebo or something you know something you've never thought about these oh thank you we're bringing in some water for you there you go um let's whilst you have a sip um because we've been thinking i've been thinking about this a lot before we came in here um to chat about it it's it's you've got as a parent you have to kind of question your own friendship group before you can start talking to your children about it and your own world and your own perception and you know yes of course, you know, yes, of course, bring in new ideas and books, but you need to have those thoughts in the first place.

And, you know, how much of the friendship groups that your children have are based on who you're talking to at the school gates? Tanika, do you think? I think you're absolutely right. I think that it's important for parents and, you know, in this case, particularly white parents to look at the groups that they have, because if you're hanging out with with predominantly other white parents, they're, it's not just our verbal cues. They take on our nonverbal cues as well. They're going to have an environment where children are exposed to shows that are not just predominantly white, to books that are not predominantly white, to books that talk about race. But at the same time, I think we can see that some white parents sometimes think it's better to be silent and not talk to their children about race because it's a taboo subject or it might scare them. But in actuality, you know, silence can perhaps breed prejudice. There was a really interesting, it was a 2016 study called Color Conscious or Color Blind. And it showed that parents who considered themselves

racially aware and understanding didn't talk to their white children about race. And those white children, the majority of them actually thought that their parents would be unsure or would not accept the fact that they could have friendships outside of their own race. So despite the fact that parents were not talking to their children about race because they thought that it would make their children think that race was insignificant or that color doesn't matter, it actually had the opposite effect. And so it's important that children you know, children, you know, see that their parents are, you know, have diverse groups and that parents can also make an effort, you know, to ensure that their children's circles are more diverse. If you're out in public, you know, and a child, you know, sees someone and ask about their skin color or how they're dressed, you know, typically parents will kind of shush them or be quiet and think that that's, you know, the polite way. But what that does is just tell the child that, you know, that, okay, maybe something's not right or wrong with that person. And really,

you know, I think specifically white parents shouldn't shy away from those opportunities to have those conversations with their kids. So Uju, what should they say? If a child says something that you find awkward or, you know, that makes you feel a little bit uncomfortable, I would say, well, first of all, you know, take a breath, you know, breathe, it's okay. And say to your child, you know, try to stop your child from being rude. So if your child is pointing, you can interrupt that. But the main thing is you want to encourage curiosity. If your child is pointing out someone that's different from them, it's not that they're being racist or prejudiced. They're just curious. And you want to encourage that curiosity. So you can just say, you know, affirm what they've said using inclusive language. If they say, oh, you know, why is that man so brown? You can say, yes, he is brown. Isn't that wonderful?

You know, what colour am I? What colour are you? Because babies, children notice skin colour. They do notice. Babies, you know, one of the things that really always surprises people and actually surprised me when I was writing my books is that babies as young as three months old notice race, like they can see skin colour. You know, they've done lots of research on this. And they don't

attach any judgment to it. They don't attach any, it's just something that they observe, and they're curious about. And as parents, you want to foster that curiosity and foster openness so that, you know, because kids are open naturally. And if we don't talk about it and make it awkward, then it just becomes awkward. It becomes awkward. And the more you talk about it, even if it's uncomfortable, the more you normalise these conversations. So as your child gets older, you can have sort of deeper, more layered conversations

because they're always going to have questions and you're always going to have questions. And you're always going to need to keep these conversations, it's not like one single conversation, you're going to have to keep talking about these, these issues. So how much of a role does class have to play in these sort of monocultural groups you get? And how do you kind of break through that? I'm thinking about, you know, areas in London that are very gentrified but are also very racially diverse that you will you won't get communities mixing even though you can live on the next street. Yeah absolutely I think that you know as a parent you need to be intentional and that's intentional you know as

we talked about your own friendship groups and also with your kids you know if your child goes to a school in a diverse area with people from different socioeconomic backgrounds, you know, if you have a birthday party, who are you inviting to that party? Are you inviting everyone or are you cherry picking? And, you know, it's much more beneficial. There have been so many studies around how beneficial it is for children to have diversity of all forms, you know, not just ethnic, but class diversity, you know, all sorts. And if you can encourage that as a parent and try and foster it, then, you know, it can only be good. And it also encourages you because when your child makes a friend, you know, most of us mums know many of our friends that we have as mum friends

are because our kids got together and they became friends. And then you become friends with the parent kind of inadvertently. And, you know, these are things that we can use in our favour. And of course, Tanika, you know, this is something for parents of colour to take on just as much as white parents as well. Absolutely. You know, parents of colour, black parents, they have a responsibility to teach their kids about race as well and being accepting, although the conversation is a little bit different.

You know, as I said before, where a lot of times it's about, you know, preparing them for the fact that, you fact that they live in a world that could be different. And I think even for my son, who's mixed race, my husband and I had conversations about how we would have those conversations with him when the time comes, because I'm black and he's white and neither of us are mixed race. And and it's it's a it's a different it's going to be very different for him to navigate that identity where I want him to be proud of his blackness in a world where whiteness is prized. He has to learn about his light skin privilege as well. So, yeah, yeah, it'll definitely be a conversation. We'll catch up with you at various stages of his life, Tanika, to find out what you're saying to him. He also has to navigate the whole American English thing as well.

He's going to understand, he will understand the sarcasm. I hope so, because it goes over my head quite a bit. It's a really fascinating conversation. And, and you know we've barely scratched the surface but i'm very aware of time but i do want to ask you both because we are compiling our birthing playlist this morning i don't know if you heard the news a woman gave birth in brazil at a metallica concert to enter sandman um what was was there a song playing when you were giving birth did you have a playlist did it even work out that way how did it for you yeah for me I definitely did not have a playlist my my I always say the birth plan is like a sort of comic strip you should just basically chuck it out the window because you make all these plans and it doesn't quite um go to go to plan but

yes I didn't have a playlist I would have loved to have had a had a playlist but it doesn't quite go to plan. But yes, I didn't have a playlist. I would have loved to have had a playlist, but it didn't work out for me. How about you, Tanika? Yes, I'm sorry. It's boring, but I didn't have one either. I actually, I gave birth five weeks early. So a big surprise. And I had an emergency C-section.

So sadly, there wasn't time to do everything that was planned. Yeah, well, imagine having to give Bertha a concert. Actually, just whilst you're here, both of you, we've had some messages in from people listening. Jules says, when we moved from culturally diverse Leeds to very white Kent, my four-year-old asked me in Tesco after a few weeks, Mummy, where are all the brown people in Kent? The black lady in front of us in the queue was interested

to hear my response and joined in like that love that turn that into i love that that's awesome uh anonymous says the lady's talking about children and race is not my experience my grandchildren at school make their own friends of every race and frankly do not notice or if they do it's unimportant to them probably because they've got friends from all different walks of life yeah that's why that's why it's unimportant and also i probably because they've got friends from all different walks of life. Yeah, exactly. That's why it's unimportant. And also, I want to sort of speak further on this whole issue, this idea of your kids not, you know, babies notice race and this idea of our kids are colourblind. They're not colourblind.

You know, you don't want them to be colourblind. You want them to see, you know, colourblindness is like a form of erasure for people who are black and brown. You want your kids to see people of all races and to appreciate, you know, appreciate your color, my color, you know, that's why my book, A World for Me and You, I wrote it really as an antidote to colorblindness. You know, you imagine a world that has no colors or is only one color, then you imagine a world, then no colors or is only one color then you imagine a world then you see the world as it is it's like full of color oh yeah if i could have a quid if i could have a quid for the amount of times i've been told i don't see your color yeah but it's

not true it's a crazy idea because you know then you don't see me if you don't see my color yeah well we will continue to have this conversation in various forms in this space. But for now, Tanika and Oju, thank you so much for joining me. 84844, keep your thoughts coming in on anything we're talking about. Your playlist tunes are coming in. Oh, here we go. This Ravi Shankar's Chance, dreamy and lyrical. That's my son's soundtrack.

No time for music with my daughter. Amy says my twins were born to a randomly chosen shuffle playlist. Amelia was born first day of my life by Bright Eyes and Emma, twin two, be our guest from Beauty and the Beast. Now, 200 million people are expected to tune in to watch this year's Eurovision Song Contest, which tomorrow is coming from Turin in Italy. Representing the UK this year is Sam Ryder, who's currently second favourite behind Ukraine. The UK hasn't had much success of late,

coming bottom on the last two occasions, last year scoring null points. In fact, it was 25 years ago since the last UK entry won Eurovision with Katrina and the Waves and their song Love Shine a Light in 1997. And we're all gonna shine a light together All shine a light to light the way Brothers and sisters in every little part Let our love shine a light in every corner And I am delighted to say I'm joined by Katrina, who in celebration has released her own single, Holiday, to coincide with the anniversary.

We'll play you a bit of that in a moment. 25 years, Katrina, can you believe it? Well, no, I can't believe it, apart from the fact I've been reminded of it incessantly this year. I mean, it does make you think, where did the time go? And, you know, if I feel old, I'm just wondering how Cheryl Baker feels these days. We should have got her on with you. You were sure that you, were you sure that, did you think you were going to win?

Yeah, I was sure. I had a really good feeling about it because it's such a positive, beautiful song. I didn't know anything about Eurovision, so I didn't know what I was up against. Everybody just kept saying, you can't win because of the political voting. But I mean, look at the year in 1997. It was quite, I think the UK was on quite an up, actually. We had Britpop, Oasis, songs like Things Can Only Get Better, Tony Blair. It was Princess Diana. The show, Absolutely Fabulous. You know, it was kind of like a real princess Diana, the show. Absolutely fabulous. You know, it was kind of like a real good vibes for the UK. And I think also I did it help. I was American. I don't know. I mean,

the BBC even suggested to me that I try and tone down my American accent before I did the competition. It hasn't worked still. Well, no, I said, one of these days I'll learn myself to talk good. But until then, you know, it was just two minutes and 58 seconds of pure terror. So you'd never heard of Eurovision. Is it true that you then watched VHSs of about 12? Well, I was very kindly sent a stack of 12 to 25 videotapes of past Eurovisions and told, binge it over the weekend and get your head around it because this is what it's all about. And I did say, I'm afraid,

what the hell is this? I couldn't believe it. And then I was watching it last night and I thought I'd seen it all. But could I believe my eyes when there is a woman front of stage, she's washing her hands and she's being attended by five gentlemen holding towels, holding hand towels. I don't know if you saw it, Syria. Oh, I need to watch that. Who was it? Syria.

I thought you were going to say Cher, because if it was Cher, I can believe it. That was absolutely... It was the Eurovision Song Contest last night. It was unbelievable. Yes, a different world. It was unbelievable on a guy on a bucking bronco at Eurovision. I mean, come on.

So what do you remember from when you won it, when they announced your name? Well, I remember Tony, Terry W wogan and he was up in the rafters he had a guinness in one hand um a glass of champagne in the other and he was balancing another glass of whiskey on his head and he was just you know i mean that was the vibe it was incredible it was a party and it's kind of been a non-stop party for 25 years i have to say oh that's good to hear so let's talk about this year's contestant Sam Ryder who came through the contest via TikTok

how do you think he'll be feeling right now yeah of course he's going to be terrified he's acting like he's all confident and it's all cool man nah you wait till that moment when you go up there I mean my backup singers were all on beta blockers, so they were all calming and chilled out. And I said, hey, where are the beta blockers? Who's handing out the beta blockers? Where are my beta blockers? You know, it's something that opera singers take so their voices don't go pure terror. Sam, Sam's a good choice. It was a it's about time we looked to the talent pool that TikTok is and said, let's get something from there. Yeah. And it is a it's about time we look to the talent pool that TikTok is and said, let's get something from there. Yeah. And it is a it's a it's a solid song, isn't it? It's a good pop song like yours was. It's going to kind of capture the hopefully, hopefully we never know.

I'm not going to say anything. It's uplifting and it's effervescent. And he's a great performer. He's a great singer. And we've got a lot going for us this year. It's been really hard other years where people have asked me and I've had to politely say, I wish them all the very best of luck because most years they need a lot more than luck. But I think Sam is looking very good for us this year. There's something to celebrate, definitely.

Absolutely. Well, let's celebrate with a bit more of your music. Let's hear your new single. This is Holiday. Holiday. Every day, join the working party's big parade. A car horn band begins to play. Every day's a holiday. Yes, every day's a holiday.

Katrina, it's so good that you've got a single out. And you love holidaying in Cornwall. Yeah, I love holidaying in Cornwall. I live in London, but I love the UK. It's a beautiful spot. I'm going to hit Scotland and the North Coast 500 this summer. Have you been on the North Coast 500? No. Oh, come on. It's going to be a beautiful, it's going to be road trip funny. I have been to quite a few places and I know you wrote a book about Cornwall. I was saying

because I've just come back from five days in Cornwall. Stunning, stunning beaches. Yes, isn't it great? I mean, Watergate Bay and Newquay's fantastic surfing. The most beautiful beaches in the world, without a doubt. Love it. The United Kingdom has so much to offer. And hopefully another Eurovision Song Contest winner. So we can put me to bed once and for all. No, we're never going to do that.

We're never, ever. Will you be watching? Are you going to be having one of those big parties? Yeah. Well, you can't believe my day. It's a ram-a-lam-a-ding-dong with a lot of stuff. I do a lot of charity work on that day, but when the night comes, it's going to be a crack open the champagne and get the cuddly toys ready to throw at the TV for all the ones we don't like. Oh, I love that. And who's going to win it? Ukraine's going to win it. Yeah, without a doubt. They say that the Eurovision Song Contest is political. Well, all right. It can be a heartfelt political vote, but the Ukraine deserve it

because it's a great song. And I think we all feel as if we are united in wanting to honour them in any way we can. Katrina, thank you so much for joining us. It was so nice to take a trip down memory lane and that image of Terry Wogan is going to stay with me for the rest of the day. Thank you so much. And thank you to all of you for listening. We've been talking about playlists, birthing playlists, and Jennifer in Glasgow said, my husband is a bit squeamish so we had BBC Radio 4 on to keep him occupied. Woman's Hour was definitely part of the mix. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. one thing, I'm investigating some quick, simple and surprising ways to improve your health and life. From eating some dark chocolate

to improve your heart, to playing video games to enhance your brain power, or singing your favourite songs to bolster your immune system. So, to benefit your brain

and body in ways you might not expect, here's just one thing you can do right now. Subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain

from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.