Woman's Hour - Alison Lapper, Greek Refugee Camps, Weaning

Episode Date: December 10, 2019

You’ll probably know Alison Lapper. There used to be a huge marble statue of her in Trafalgar Square and it showed her 8 months pregnant, with no arms and short legs. That’s because Alison has a condition called phocomelia. This summer her son, Parys, died. He was 19, and had been struggling with mental health problems and drugs. Alison is an artist and she has an exhibition on right now. One of her pictures is of her son, but that wasn't the intention, she says, when she was painting it.It's International Human Rights Day. We're focusing on the women and girls in migrant camps in Greece, where conditions are dangerous and risky. Sexual harassment and gender-based violence are problems as well as food and water shortages and poor sanitation. Hillary Margolis of Human Rights Watch has been there recently.Poet and novelist Helen Mort has written a story called Weaning. It's part of an anthology called The Book of Sheffield. It's about a mother who stops breastfeeding and the impact it has on her mental health. It's also about feeling disconnected from the city of Sheffield as well as herself. Helen tells Jane how her own experience of weaning has inspired the story.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, good morning, welcome to the programme. Today, the writer Helen Mort will talk to us about weaning her baby son and how it made her feel. So if that's something you're doing at the moment or it's something you remember vividly, you can contact the programme at BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter and Instagram.

People are still coming to the Greek migrant camps. It might not be top of our news agenda at the moment, but people are still coming and they're still suffering. And today we'll look particularly at conditions for women and girls. And we'll talk to a teacher and pupils at a grammar school that has changed its regulations on hair and has started to decolonise its curriculum. That's later in the programme this morning.

First to the artist Alison Lapper, who is well known. She was born with a condition that means that she has short legs and no arms and a statue of her was on a plinth in Trafalgar Square. And you must recall, I certainly do, that she took part in the BBC series Child of Our Time at the turn of this century when she was pregnant with her son Paris. Paris died in the summer and he was just 19. Now Alison has a new exhibition. It opens today in East London at the Espacio Gallery. And one of the paintings featured is of Paris. Alison good

morning to you. Good morning. And I think what is really particularly poignant about the painting of Paris was that you didn't know you were going to do it it sort of just began to form in front of you have I got that right? Absolutely he I mean as I was painting, wasn't particularly thinking about anything. And I thought, I'll do a face. And then as I stepped back to look at it, I realised it was Paris. And then I said to somebody else who was in the room with me, what does that look like? And they went, Paris. And I'm like, OK, this is not my imagination. So somehow, subconsciously, I'm painting Paris. This is all so, so raw and so recent, Alison.

Can I just ask a really simple question? How are you? Are you OK? I have, you know, good days, bad days, good minutes, bad minutes. It comes over in waves, really. Sometimes it's even like it hasn't really happened and I'm going to see him. So it's all very strange, really. And in terms of getting through life you're you're plodding on are you you are working has that helped

yeah absolutely um painting obviously to be part of this exhibition um has really helped um so I'm just throwing myself into anything other than sitting at home thinking about it, really. You say there are good minutes and bad minutes. Yeah. What can spark, I don't know, a particular memory or a snatch of conversation that comes back to you? Yeah. What happens? Anything.

Anything can spark. You know, like Christmas, obviously, seeing Christmas cards for, you know, sun, that obviously I started to cry. Anything, like I'm not Christmas cards for, you know, son, that obviously I started to cry, anything that I'm not buying him presents. It's his birthday on the 6th of January and I haven't got to buy him a birthday card. All those little things that probably don't mean much to anybody else,

but, you know, I find it really hard to just go past them at the moment. What is helping apart from work, if anything? Amazing friends and an amazing fian i have to say who's just been with me and just propping me up really which is has been amazing and everyone just letting me be who i need to be and what i need to be on that particular time or moment which is a real help because i realize other people that haven't gone through this you know it probably gets a little bit boring after a while but you know everyone's been really kind and just allowed me to you know feel as I do and say what I mean I talk about him a lot but in a positive he he was troubled for quite some time wasn't it something that you yourself

have have acknowledged absolutely yeah yeah and I don't think I realized at the time how bad it really was I've never you know had a child with these issues before so it was new to everybody obviously he grew up with you and around not just you but your carers who I I gather were pretty much omnipresent weren't they? Oh absolutely 24 hours a day so yeah and if I look back now I mean also at the time you're too busy with a child and getting on with it but if I think about it now I do actually feel that we were quite judged and constantly watched really judged by who by the carers or by everybody anybody everybody you know because we were not ever far from the limelight

the tv or or what have you um and I remember Paris used to say to me mummy why are people staring and I'm being like because you're beautiful and then I've got to actually tell you the truth here it's because you know mum is different and you know you're on my lap and things like that so it our dynamic was very different maybe to to other people's because I couldn't put my arms around him he had to come to me if he fell over so the dynamic was was very different between us and who who could possibly offer you advice i watched you in child of our time like millions of others and i was pregnant too at that time i suppose that like many people that's why i engaged with the program um who could possibly have told you what motherhood was going to be like um nobody well nobody can tell anyone i suppose

no i mean friends tried but you know once this little bundle is literally i mean he you know had a cesarean the camera crew were there there was a cameraman um photographer and basically he got put on me and it was like nothing else mattered nobody else was in the room and i'd already fallen in love with him just carrying him but then when you you know they put him on me and it was like nothing else mattered nobody else was in the room and I'd already fallen in love with him just carrying him but then when you you know they put him on me um it was just incredibly overwhelming and then obviously I wanted to breastfeed him because I wanted him to know that I was mum and of course he did know I was mum I didn't need to have done that but I'm glad I did because it again that closeness was so special yes I mean that that brought about a particular intensity in your relationship would you say yeah absolutely but

then it felt as a viewer to me that it was it was you and Paris against the world yep that's exactly what it felt like as well and I tried to dismiss that and just think no you're just being silly but actually yeah it was and now um he isn't around anymore um you've got a fiance so you have a future alison and you have your talent that doesn't replace paris no i mean of course it it can't um does it help that people allow you you are in a position to at least talk about him and to remember him in a public way like we're doing now yeah I mean you know I don't want to pretend that he wasn't here and you know that we didn't have a long time together I mean 19 years and I feel very cheated but I wouldn't

have missed being his mum for the world you know it was an honour to be his mum you were conspicuous as you'd be the first to acknowledge um and do you regret in any way the the impact of your very public presence on him because people would get at paris wouldn't they and he would yeah well he was bullied because of you which is utterly despicable we should say but nevertheless it happened but that wasn't because we were on tv that was because i was disabled and if i went into the school the next day paris would then get the mickey taken out of him you know your mum's a crip and all this kind of thing so i stopped going because i didn't want him to feel um bad there but obviously i had no idea what he was really going through at school. I know that he hated it, basically. And when you're being told, you know,

if we don't bring your child to school, you're going to be fined, I almost became like a bully because I was like, you've got to go in Paris because I was panicking that I was going to be fined. It's not the way to do it. It's not good. OK, you had all that going on as well. And Paris got into drugs really he was very young actually when he when he started and did you feel or did you know about that did you feel powerless about it I didn't know until he was about 14 um and even

from you know 14 up to about 17 it was very much controlled although he was having mental health problems and he wasn't going to school um he wasn't as desperate as as he got you know his behavior deteriorated his attitude you know he he became a mess basically and it was really hard to manage him in that situation all teenagers are pretty hard to reach. They are, yes. But this was a uniquely difficult set of circumstances, you'd say. Well, yes, but also what was teenage behaviour and what was the drugs and the depression

and there was so much, I couldn't always distinguish one between the other. No, well, I mean, there'll be any number of parents listening right now who will completely uh that will resonate with them unfortunately and yeah in terms of getting help well we all know because on this program we've talked before about problems in cams for example it's it's pretty tough out there at the moment isn't it it is very tough out there i really feel sorry for anybody who is trying to negotiate and navigate themselves through this system at the moment, because it's just it isn't supported

enough. People aren't getting the help they need. And it's desperate. And I think it's a crisis that we're not really dealing with, which is, you know, there's so many parents out there that have either emailed me or written to me, you know, saying exactly the same things as I'm telling you. And they're tearing their hair out and they don't know where to turn. And your exhibition and your portrait of your son, are you, this is an odd question, but I want to know whether you're happy with the portrait you've done of him. Is it him? Have you got him, do you think? I think I've got his essence. It's definitely his eyes, because he had the most beautiful eyes.

He was a beautiful boy, I should say. Yeah. I'm biased, obviously, but I think he was very beautiful. So, yeah, I think, for me, I captured maybe an essence of Paris rather than, oh, it looks directly like him. But as I say, to me, it just kind of came out of the canvas. It was really quite a weird thing to be looking at, thinking, oh, I've just painted you and you're not even here. So that was very strange. Thank you very much for talking to us, Alison. We appreciate it. And the very best of luck with the exhibition at the Espacio Gallery and with frankly with getting through Christmas and January as well. Thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us this morning. That couple of weeks, of course. We didn't get interviews with Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn.

And rest assured, we did ask. We did get four women party leaders into the studio to explain their offer to female voters. And here's a quick reminder. First up, you'll hear Jo Swinson, leader of the Liberal Democrats, who spoke to Emma Barnett on Friday. Then Sian Berry, co-leader of the Green Party of England and Wales. Liz Salvo-Roberts, Westminster leader of Plaid Cymru

and Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party Look, people I think can look at my record standing up for the things that I believe in I'm being very clear about our commitment in terms of the European Union there's been plenty of people that have tried to sway me off that and say, you know, you shouldn't, you know, some people don't like that,

you should say something different. And I'm absolutely sticking to my principles. And we want to see a Britain that is fair, open and inclusive, tackling the climate emergency. We've got these bold plans. When I think about all that's at stake in this election and the opportunity that we saw that there could be a moment to change things and shake things up. Yeah, I think it's absolutely right that we set out bold and ambitious plans to do just that. Climate action is an

absolute bottom line for us, as are changes to austerity. I think one thing that we're all about is system change. And people often interpret that we're all about is system change. And people often interpret that as just being about the climate, but it isn't. And one thing that we've got as a goal, as part of our manifesto, is the elimination of poverty. And that sounds really grandiose, but actually it's not that difficult to do. We're talking about providing a universal basic income to absolutely every person to replace the benefit system to take away that conditionality. Our offer with this general election is to address the

reality of poverty in Wales and to address that with costed and targeted policies and particularly with the Welsh children's payments that we would propose of £35 per week to families living on the poverty line and one in three children in Wales are living on the poverty line, and one in three children in Wales are living in the poverty line. And in all honesty, if we don't address those children and give them greater aspirations and the means to have greater ambitions, I would be concerned that we're looking at the rolling on of these same conditions into the future. I hope there's a hung parliament with the SNP holding the balance of power, because I think that gives Scotland the maximum influence within a system that the last three years have demonstrated

make it very difficult for Scotland's voice to be heard and interests to be respected. You know, when I joined the SNP, we have this thing as part of our constitution that the aims of the SNP are independence for Scotland and to further the best interests of Scotland. So, you know, I want independence because I think it best equips us to have the best health service, the best education system, the best economy, the best interests of Scotland. So, you know, I want independence because I think it best equips us to have the best health service,

the best education system, the best economy, the best society. And I will never be disappointed if I manage to make progress in all of these things. But I will always want Scotland to be independent. I hope that we will become independent soon.

I hope that that happens while I'm First Minister and I'll keep working for that for as long as it takes. And if you'd like to hear all of those interviews in their entirety, then you can, of course, do so on BBC Sounds, which is also the place to go to subscribe to the Women's Hour podcast, which you won't want to miss.

There's additional material every day and it comes into your inbox at a time that suits you. Now, Emma Dubeary's book, Don't Touch My Hair, came out earlier this year and it was about the history and politics around black hair. And it's had quite an impact, not least at a grammar school in London, South London, where the head has abandoned what he now calls racist hair rules. So Emma is going to join us in a moment. I'm told she's waiting for a lift somewhere in the BBC. But what I do have in front of me right now are three pupils from Townley Grammar School

in Bexley Heath they are Asese, Bukinmi and Hannah we've also got their English teacher Lauren Binks who has been one of the people who implemented or helped to implement these changes but Asese as the oldest you have been it's been decided by your fellow pupils you're going to go first so what were what where this is my scarce struggling, what were the hair regulations at your school? Got there. Okay, so from what I can remember, you weren't allowed any colours that were unnatural. Right. You weren't allowed more than one colour in your hair.

And you also weren't allowed like jewellery in your hair, if you get what I'm saying. Yeah. As black people can put like bands and like gold bands and stuff in our hair, if you get what I'm saying. Us black people can put bands and gold bands and stuff in our hair. We weren't allowed any of that. And it was something that you all, you actually adhered to it? You obeyed the rules? Well, some of us tried our best, I mean. Okay, well, Bukimi, what about you?

Yes, we did try our best. Some of us, we did stick to it at times but other times just we would try but we would get sanctioned for it or they would tell us to take out the class or take out the colors in our hair and we didn't feel that this was right we kind of we were not angry but we were annoyed that our the way to express our hair was being repressed and we weren't allowed to express ourselves in school you say sanctioned what what does that mean what happened as in we would sometimes we'll be given detentions for having the colors in our hair if they weren't natural or we would be told to take them out even though it took hours and a lot of time to put it in our hair and to make it look beautiful.

Okay, and Hannah, as another pupil at the school, what did you think about all this? Like, from someone looking on and seeing my friends and that being told to take their braids out and things like that, I didn't really understand why. Because from my point of view, it wasn't affecting anything it's just like for me personally like I express myself through my hair a lot like um and so like to take that away from students I think it really annoyed me because it's like um these students sit there

they spend their time and money like having these braids put in and then they're just told to take them out because they're deemed as inappropriate okay OK. Now, Lauren Binks, you're an English teacher, aren't you? I am, yes. Were the girls coming to you to complain? Yeah, well, what we had as part of our drive to decolonise the curriculum, as part of that, we set up a student diversity group. And that was a way for students' voices to be heard and part of our process of decolonising the curriculum.

And that's obviously looking at what they learn in the classroom, but also looking at what their everyday experiences were in school as well. And hair was such a big thing that the students felt was completely unfair. And just listening to the students speak now, you can completely see why. I can see. As a teacher, and you, I should say, you are white. Yes. How much of this did you know? No, absolutely. It's all a learning process.

I think two big things happened for me in terms of that, where I went to a Goldsmiths conference called On Whose Terms. And that was looking, that looked at many issues to do with black students' experience in university and schools. I was reading Rene Adeloges' book at the time as well. And all of this influence, I took it, I thought I'm a teacher. I've got, I'm in a position where I can actually make change here and do something, and listening to the students, I thought, how can I not take this opportunity to do it? Okay, and so what happened? Well, there was a new... Well, they basically let go of the whole hair sanction thing,

like everyone was allowed to do whatever you want with your hair. And you could see the difference it made, because before there was a lot of, like, ominosity between the black students and the teachers and the staff and the whole system. And like, because we felt like it was clear that it was a racist thing, to be honest.

It was clear that this impacted mainly the black students. So when this ban was taken away, things were a lot easier. Like people like their staff more. Like there's less of that racist feeling. Can you just describe your hair now? Oh, my hair right now?

It's a wig, by the way. It's bright red. Yeah, it's short, bob. Short, bright red, bob. And it's a wig. Yeah. Okay. I mean, okay.

Are you sticking with that for now or is that going to change? Yeah. I mean, you've got the freedom to do what you like. Yeah, I can literally... I mean, for now, this red is doing well, doing me good. Okay, it's a festive. Yeah. I've got to say. For Christmas.

Okay. But Kimmy, what about you? I've got braids in that go sort of ombre from black to a yellow colour. It's very nice. I like it. And you better tell us about you, Hannah, as well. Well, just now it's like a red brown color because I'm actually covering up something I'm having up I dye my hair a lot and it had

faded to a not a very pleasant green you don't have to apologize to me about dying there's absolutely no issue there and so I'm like waiting the greeny blue mess out until I dye it again and it's also I've got an undercut at the back with the pattern in. None of which is affecting your commitment to your schoolwork. Because we should say, this is a grammar school, it's very academic.

You're there to work hard, get the grades, go on to other things. So Emma DeBerry is here. You got out of the lift. I managed to go. Yeah, the impact of your book has been, well, here is a practical example. You must be chuffed.

Yeah, I mean, I'm over the moon to see it, to see the book having this impact in the real world. And the head teacher from the school had reached out to me and said that the book had been very influential on him. This is Mr. Dehan. Yeah, exactly. Desmond Dehan. You call him Desmond. It's Mr. Dehan to us. I haven't actually met him yet. Yeah, exactly, Desmond Dehan. You call him Desmond. It's Mr. Dehan to us. I haven't actually met him yet.

He's just spoken online. Yeah, and I mean, I couldn't really want for more from the book. I felt very frustrated with a lot of the misunderstandings that exist around black hair. And to see there be such a kind of transformation and for the book to facilitate such understanding is really wonderful. And I think it's not just to do, like, for instance, I've just had a baby. So in terms of maintenance with my own hair, I wouldn't be able to just have my hair out in its natural, in an afro now because I don't actually have the time to maintain an afro. No, so that wouldn't be practical.

Exactly. So I have extensions in my hair if there was a rule stopping me from having extensions that would have like a huge knock-on effect and impact so it's also in terms of maintenance it's not just necessarily about aesthetics it's also about the way our hair grows from our head is different to the way Caucasian hair grows um so as a result of that we need to wear protective styles and the hair our hair is prone to tangling, to breaking in this weather. So it needs to be braided. It needs to be twisted. It needs to be maybe under a wig or in extensions. These are all things that also help the health of our hair and are needed for basic maintenance.

And Lauren, when you talked about attempting to begin to decolonise the curriculum, if we can just give a couple of examples. You're an English teacher, so the books have changed, haven't they? Yeah, the books have changed. Again, that was down to a really brilliant session that we attended at the Goldsmith Conference where they actually looked at the English curriculum and how shamefully white it is. And we looked at opportunities where we could challenge that. So we introduced the colour purple by Liz Walker at A-level.

We looked at how we can put in things like protest poetry in order to bring in diverse voices. We study pidgin English at GCSE now for our modern text. Which is a novel. It is a novel, yes. And it's really important that we do that because it allows for students to be seen, which is really important and something that our diversity group spoke about a lot

in terms of representation, but also for conversations to be had in the classroom, which is central to everything we're doing. We're learning, we listen to the students. It's really important. Okay, and let's just have a quick one from the girls about the... Do either of you, any of you do English? You're doing English A-level?

No, I do biology, chemistry and maths. Oh. I'm also a machine. That's right. Okay, that's... So what careers have you got in mind? Microbiologist, clinical scientist maybe. Okay.

All right. Does anyone... You're doing English GCSE, yes? I am. I take the same subjects as obviously. Go on then. Oh, okay. So you do, right.

Okay. So what about your GCSEs? I'm determined to find somebody doing English. I do English GCSE. English GCSE, I do German, classical, civilisation and geography and history. Right, OK. And the truth is, if a book's good, it doesn't actually matter who's written it. But if, I mean, I'm interested, Miss Bink, in the fact that obviously

are the majority of pupils at the school not white? So it splits basically into a third. So we have a third black students and then a third white and third Asian. OK, so I mean, go on Emma, what do you want to say about that? I just want to say when it comes to decolonising a curriculum as well, I think that what you've done in the school sounds so incredible, but it's not just subjects like English. For instance, there's a chapter in my book on maths and indigenous African mathematical systems and how they're expressed through braiding patterns and through fractal technology in hair.

So people tend to think when you think about decolonising a curriculum that it's just subjects in history. Yeah, but it's also technology and science as well. And Africa has a really strong tradition of technology and science, binary coding, but we don't really ever hear about that because it doesn't really fit the narrative of African primitivism that is so widely pushed.

That's exactly what we're trying to do as well. We're trying to look at subjects across the whole curriculum as well, and making sure that in science and maths as well, students are experiencing that too. It's a fantastic talking point and I hope the listeners get involved at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram if you've got kids at school if you feel the curriculum should change needs to change let us know what you think about it and thank you all and the best of luck with everything you do and all your scientific endeavours and your English GCSE. Thank you very much thank

you for coming in Emma and congratulations on the baby as well. We're talking about weaning later in the programme. You might want to stick around. Oh that's very close to my heart. Well there you go. Alright thank you all very much indeed. Now this is Woman's Hour. Tomorrow we're talking about women in space and I'm delighted to say tomorrow I'm going to be talking to a space gynaecologist. So that's going to be absolutely

fascinating about the effects of zero gravity on the female anatomy. Thank you all very much. Very nice to meet you all. Thank you. Now to something much more. Well, it's actually very depressing. This Maria was once a really tiny village on the Greek island of Lesbos.

It is now home to thousands of refugees in an ever growing migrant camp and conditions for women and girls there are particularly bad. We can have a quick word with Hilary Margolis of Human Rights Watch. Hilary, you were there, what, back in October? Yes, we were there in mid to late October this year. Right. And what were conditions like there for everybody, first of all? The conditions are simply horrific and much worse than they were when I was there a couple of years ago. Extreme overcrowding. We're looking at a situation that now where the camp is now housing over 17,000 people with a capacity of under 6,000 or pardon me, under 3,000. And so extreme overcrowding, trash, rubbish everywhere, dirty toilets, people just literally living on top of one another. People are still coming. And I mentioned at the beginning of the program, it isn't actually

something that we are seeing all that much of on the television or hearing about it on the radio. We've sort of forgotten about this problem because there are other things Britain is focusing on. But they're still coming every single day, every week. What's the pattern? People are still coming. And actually, it's reached a point of crisis that we haven't seen since 2015, in terms of the numbers. People are coming regularly, they're coming through Turkey, they're coming, because they feel they need to leave their homelands, their country of origin, because they need to get somewhere safe. And so, yeah, this just is not stopping and it's not going to stop.

Okay. And the countries they're coming from remain Afghanistan, Somalia, Afghanistan, Somalia, Syria, some from Iraq, some from West Africa. Right. So you've got very disparate groups of people actually all living together in a tiny space. They don't have all that much in common, presumably. I mean, in some ways they have a lot in common because they're all going through this terrible situation and living in these really inhumane conditions. But yes, they're also coming from very different places, very different backgrounds and cultures and religions and so on. And that also creates tension within the camp. Let's talk then about the unaccompanied young women and girls. There are some. And I think you believe they are uniquely vulnerable in the camp, as well as young women who are alone.

And all of them face enormous risks in terms of harassment, sexual or gender-based violence. They simply feel too afraid to even leave their tents, they tell us. Because? Because they feel that they're at extremely high risk of violence and any kind of abuse, whether it's verbal or physical. They also feel that there isn't adequate lighting in the camp. There aren't locks on their shelters, so they have absolutely no security in where they're sleeping. Whose job is it to police the place? So it's really under the auspices of the Greek government.

And the EU has been funding the Greek government to do this, to put in place appropriate asylum procedures, appropriate housing and conditions for migrants and asylum seekers. And it's just simply not happening. I suppose what I really meant was on a practical level, are there people patrolling the site at night? So there are some security guards, essentially police, but the police who are in Moria Camp are not able to actually,

for example, take complaints. So if there's a security incident, a case of sexual assault, if someone goes to report it to these police, essentially what aid workers told us is the case will just die because these police are not intended to follow up or take those complaints. And what about the long-term impact of this sort of existence on these people? Presumably depression, mental health concerns must be an issue too. We're seeing, I would say, an enormous impact. Basically, every woman I spoke with talked about symptoms of depression, anxiety, sleeplessness, worrying just to an enormous extent about their children and themselves and things, even very basic things like how am I going

to get food? They would stand in food lines for hours and still not receive food. So you're seeing these women who are in a very perpetual state of just heightened anxiety. Right. I mean, there are, as we've established, thousands on this island, Lesbos, but there are other camps scattered across the rest of Greece. What are the plans for everyone? Where are they going to go as more continue to arrive? Right. Well, currently, there are over 40,000 people living across five islands that can house around 6,000. So we're looking at enormous numbers for the capacity. There are plans now by the Greek government to move around 20,000 migrants and asylum seekers to the mainland by early 2020, which is a good

first step. But that's a couple of weeks away. Is there any sign of that happening? Well, we're waiting to see, you know, whether that will happen. But even if it does, that leaves at least 20,000 people on islands with capacity for about 6,000, not to mention any new arrivals that are coming. And it also doesn't address the fact that the government is planning to turn these reception centers into closed, essentially detention sites. And that also will not make things any better. In fact, it could only make things worse. What the Greek government should be doing is having these open camps, but with humane, appropriate conditions.

Okay. I mean, Greece is not wonderfully off economically. We know that. Are you suggesting that Greece is not getting enough money from other member states of the European Union, or are you suggesting it is squandering the money it has been given? Greece has been receiving significant funding from the EU. So it's unclear exactly how some of that funding is being spent. But in addition, what we do need to see are other EU member states taking responsibility for welcoming asylum seekers and migrants as well, because there is enormous pressure on Greece, as there is on Italy. And we can't leave these countries to go it alone.

Of course, Britain may well cease to be a member of the European Union sooner rather than later. It may. And what would you say about that? Britain should and can take in asylum seekers and migrants. And you have a policy that has fair and speedy asylum processes, and that accepts people who really are in need of security and safety. Thank you very much for talking to us. That's the view of Hilary Margolis of Human Rights Watch, who went to Moria, which, as I said at the start, there was once an absolutely tiny little village on Lesbos, but has now expanded to contain those thousands of migrants.

Thank you very much, Hilary. Now, weaning, you might think that's an unlikely subject for a short story, but one has been written by the poet and novelist Helen Mort, who joins us now from our studio in Sheffield. Her son, Alfie. Well, you tell me, Helen, how old is Alfie now? He's just turned one. Okay. So, yes, so he was born, what's his birthday? He was born on the 1st of December last year.

Oh, my goodness. Right. So he really is only just one. Right. Now, weaning, we looked on the NHS website. Weaning says, or the NHS website says weaning is, introducing your baby to solid foods, also referred to as weaning or complementary feeding.

So is that what your short story is about? It is, but it's more about the experience of stopping breastfeeding, which for me went hand in hand with my baby starting to eat solid foods and really taking to that. And he dropped quite a lot of feeds quite quickly because he was he loved solid food so much and was eating so much so it's more about the story is set in sheffield and it describes a woman who's stopping breastfeeding and it has quite a bad effect on her mental health and on her mood. And were you writing specifically about your

own experience here? And had you been warned that giving up breastfeeding might have that impact on you? I was writing about my own experience. I wrote the story in the third person because that was somehow it was easier for me to talk about it. I'd actually struggled to write for quite a long time partly to do with my mood and I felt that after I had a baby there's a fantastic really good conversation about postnatal depression and I think it's wonderful that there's so much discussion about that but I hadn't been warned about stopping breastfeeding specifically and I was, I think I was really taken by surprise that six months on after giving birth, that that's when it hit me.

Yeah. Yeah. Earlier in the programme, I don't know if you heard Alison Lapper talking about the intensity that she felt around her breastfeeding of her son, Paris. It is, oh God, I don't know how to put it into words really. I mean, I wasn't a very, I did do breastfeeding. It wasn't something I'd ever have written poetry about. I've got to be honest.

I slightly struggled with it, but it is the most wonderful thing to do if you are able to do it. There's no doubt about that. I should say as well that I loved breastfeeding. I think I was lucky. We had a very easy time with breastfeeding. And I also love bottlefeeding. And I also

love bottle feeding. And I love the intimacy of that, which I don't think gets talked about that much. So I wanted to write about that. Wonderful bit of BBC balance there, Helen. Thank you so much. I can't tell you. I mean, I think it's just so wonderful to be able to kiss the top of your baby's head while you're feeding them a bottle. And I never expected bottle feeding to be so intimate. So I love that it was the transition and it was the hormonal effect and the effect on my body that I could tell that my mind wanted one thing and my body wanted something else and that was quite frightening actually oh yeah okay um so Emma DeVere has actually come back in because you are in this position Emma is that right uh well I'm not weaning yet but but I'm breastfeeding my eight week old.

Oh, only eight weeks. Yeah, but I have weaned my elder son. Right. But I did it after like two years. So at that point, I was done. So I didn't have that same kind of emotional experience that Helen is talking about in her story because I was exhausted at that stage. And I was just like, this has to end here. For my son, on the other hand, I think it was slightly more upsetting for him.

How did he express his upset? He just, for a long time, continued to kind of try and feed. And it was just trying to explain to him. But it's very difficult to explain that to a two-year-old. That's something that they've kind of known for the entirety of their life is no longer going to be a part of it. And he's very interested in my breastfeeding of the latest edition. I bet he is. You can't blame him, to be fair.

So you didn't, what you've been clear about is that it was time for you to stop. It was time for me to stop, yes. But what you felt, Helen, was this loss of, what was the hormone? It's oxytocin. Oxytocin, yeah. And this is medical fact, is it, that it actually plung plunges the rates of it plunge when you stop breastfeeding yeah that's right and um i i i didn't really know about that at all i sort of discovered it by chance when i was at my lowest and suddenly there was this explanation for what i was um experiencing and um yeah it kind of all

made sense but it had loads of strange effects on me and the story is about a woman who sort of forgets the names of places and i'm somebody who's very connected to place i love to run i love to climb and it was it was really weird i had this day where i couldn't remember the name of these rocks where i was walking where i've climbed so much so it was sort of a time of confusion really and. And yeah, I guess to know what was going on physically and hormonally was really, really helpful. I read the story and it struck me that it was partly about the pull of your child to whom you are clearly closely connected,

but also a bit of regret about the loss of your old life and your oneness with nature and the freedom you used to have. Is that fair? Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, you get that state, don't you, that it's the paradox of motherhood, that you can want that, that you love them so much, you want that closest,

but you also need some of the things that make you you. And I wanted to explore that in the story kind of wanted to explore the joy of food and weaning as well because I really loved that side of it and I think I mean yeah I sort of had the the opposite thing to Emma in that my baby wasn't bothered at all about stopping breastfeeding not for a second but it was me that was having a hard time, even though it was partly, it was a sort of joint decision with me and my baby to stop. But I was so sad.

Oh, yes. Oh, God. If only people could just follow a pattern and stick to it. But the trouble is, everyone's different. Emma, you were nodding along there when Helen mentioned the idea of reclaiming something of your old self, getting your life a bit back. Yeah, absolutely. That's so, so relatable. And I think that was what led, I was aware that he was, I still

couldn't really like have a drink and enjoy it because like everything that like I, you know, everything that I ate that I put into my body, I was thinking I'm still like connected to this little person and it's like deeply, deeply like physical way. So I just felt this huge weight of responsibility that I had that was unequal to anything I'd ever felt before. And of course, you have that becoming a mother. But while you're still breastfeeding, I think that's even more amplified. So when that when that stopped for me, that was like for me, like a weight was taken off. Much as I loved breastfeeding and I'm breastfeeding again and hopefully will be able to again up to two.

It is it is it can be very exhausting. And it's a colossal commitment, frankly, in all sorts of ways. Absolutely, absolutely. And it does have an impact on your body, Helen, about which you also write. Yeah, while you're feeding, but also when you stop, because I found that my body changed when I stopped breastfeeding. And even when my mood had improved a little bit and I kind of struggled a bit with body image and that lasted for quite a long time after until

fairly recently actually. In what way? So I guess I'd gone from like an A cup to bra size to less than that. And I just suddenly, I felt, this is perhaps something I shouldn't admit to, but I felt less womanly perhaps in some way. Don't apologise if that's how you were feeling. That was how I felt. And I actually, it got so bad that I became obsessed with the idea. This is so unlike me that I should have plastic surgery to change my body which is never something that I'd thought of before or or you know again now but it was I wasn't really myself um and I was quite preoccupied with with that for a while as

well actually the good news is you didn't have plastic surgery I didn't but you did do something else didn't you I did I went and had a tattoo on my sternum which incidentally is a really painful place to have a tattoo Just as I was on the point of having a tattoo on my sternum you put me off Helen, always good to talk to you, thank you very much Thank you And thank you for being so honest about that

and Helen has contributed that short story Weaning to an anthology that is out now Emma, thank you very much for popping back in You're most welcome We appreciate it Let's get your thoughts on that then. On weaning then, a listener tweets to say, I've just given up after two years.

I'm feeling a mix of massively energetic, sad, cross and slightly crazy. I've breastfed for five years out of the last eight and it is definitely relief mixed with sadness that I will never do it again. Yeah, that is a colossal amount of time. So no wonder you're feeling a little bit vague about how you really feel about it all. Because that five years out of the last eight you've been breastfeeding and now you're not anymore. So it's going to be a change, to put it mildly.

From Liz, both my sons lost interest in breastfeeding at almost the same time, 10 months old. I remember feeling quite sad and bereft when it happened. Neither of them had ever had a bottle, so I started them drinking from a cup as soon as they started on solid food, so I only had myself to thank for their early independence. They are now 47 and 43, but I felt a stab of sadness when I heard that interview today.

Oh, gosh, it just, again, it's one of those reminders that that experience never leaves you. It doesn't matter how many years ago it all happened. And from Maggie, so good to hear Helen saying positive things about the connection with a baby whilst you're bottle feeding. Mums are so unfairly demonised for bottle feeding and there are many positives. Giving dads an opportunity to experience that intimate connection too.

So thank you, Helen, for saying it. And from Sarah. While pregnant, I was easy breezy about the idea of breastfeeding. However, when my daughter Florence was born, put on my chest and with the help of a midwife had her first feed, high on oxytocin, I had a strong feeling that this was how I wanted to feed my baby. Well, after this strong start,

various obstacles scuppered our progress, but we muddled through on daily visits from the midwives, calls to helplines, a breastfeeding coach, herbal potions and every sort of nipple accoutrement you can imagine. Suddenly, after weeks of it being incredibly hard, breastfeeding became incredibly easy. A few weeks ago my daughter stopped asking for it and so 17 months in, our breastfeeding journey has come to an end. I feel a bit sad that our

unique special connection is no more but I'm very proud I fought for it in the early days and have followed my daughter's lead in the end. That's very poignant it just shows you that there is a whole wealth of different experiences out there. We have of course done many programs over the years on feeding babies. There was a phone-in, I think probably a couple of years ago now, which I'm sure you can still find online, but it was called, I think, Feeding Your Baby. So if you want to go on a popular search engine and find that, you can probably just put in Women's Hour Feeding Your Baby and that phone-in will come up because no two women have the same experience, I think it's fair to say. And from Julie, I just want to add to the debate on weaning.

I breastfed all three of my children. However, my middle son stopped breastfeeding abruptly at seven months when my period restarted. From three feeds a day to total refusal of the breast literally overnight, he was only partially weaned. For me, it was the abruptness and the lack of control which felt hard to deal with a loss i was not prepared for i've got to confess my ignorance there i i thought that whilst you were breastfeeding your periods didn't restart but i'm interested to know that

yours started again and then your son didn't want to breastfeed anymore so perhaps someone can um put us right there or just explain to me what actually does go on. I didn't know that. And Alison Lapper, of course, attracted a great deal of sympathy and support. I've just listened to the brave voice of Alison, says Philippa, who said she had no one to turn to about her son's difficulties. I really do feel for her. The charity Drug Fam, which is based in High Wycombe, is very supportive and it can advise family in relation to drug and alcohol addiction. And it's worth mentioning to her and indeed to a wider audience. And Chris says so much

of what Alison Lapper is saying resonates with me regarding the loss of our son. He had mental health issues from the age of 14 to 24. He was troubled and also got into drugs and his life ended when he took what's called a naive overdose. I don't think he wanted to die. So I can relate to the little things that trigger sadness, even though it is six years since Samuel died. Thank you, Alison, for talking about it. It really does help to know that somebody else feels exactly the same way about what triggers those tears. Big hugs to you. I really do know your pain, says Chris to Alison. And thank you, Chris, for writing that.

I'm so sorry that your son had, well, that his life took those really difficult turns. From Sharon, I just wanted to say that I remember Alison on Child of Our Time and I remember her saying that she couldn't hold Paris and she needed to use her voice and talk to him. I had twins and while I don't want to imply that my difficulties are in any way comparable to hers, it isn't always possible to do everything you want for one baby or toddler when you've got another.

And that comment about using your voice was probably the most useful advice I got from anyone not only in terms of the practical help but also in remembering that if you have challenges that other people don't you have to find your own way around them and if people judge you for doing that because it looks odd well that's their problem their problem. And frankly, they can butt out. So thank you, Alison. And I really do wish you all the very best. That's from Sharon. Thank you to Sharon. Thanks to everybody who's taken part today.

It was a lively program. Hope you enjoyed the podcast. And we're back tomorrow talking, amongst other things, about the future of women in space. the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.