Woman's Hour - Alison Rodgers, Dan Scorer, Ros Coward, Anita Anand, Sarah Class, Tracey Cox, Dr Tristram Wyatt

Episode Date: August 18, 2022

If you’re a social media user you may well be familiar with the concept of vabbing – vaginal dabbing – where you use vaginal fluid as a perfume behind the ears and neck. Proponents claim it acts as an aphrodisiac to would-be lovers by spreading pheromones. Emma Barnett talks to sex expert Tracey Cox and the evolutionary biologist Dr Tristram Hunt. Have you tried it? Does it work? And is it sanitary?Adam Downs is one of 15 people with learning disabilities who is in a high security hospital. He is currently at Rampton Secure Hospital with serial killers, murderers and paedophiles even though he has never been convicted of an offence. Ex-patients include Charles Bronson, Ian Huntley and Stephen Griffiths. His mother Alison Rodgers and Dan Scorer from the learning disability charity Mencap talk to us about their campaign for him to be cared for in the community. They say at least 2000 people with learning disabilities and or autism are currently being detained in inpatient hospital units in England and the Government is not reaching the targets they set.It’s almost 25 years since Diana Princess of Wales was killed in a car crash in Paris. She once famously said “being a princess isn’t all it’s cracked up to be” so what is the life of a princess in the modern royal family and how are our perceptions of that role influences by fiction and culture. Emma Barnett talks to Anita Anand the presenter of the Radio 4 series “Princess” which looks at famous historical and fictional princesses and also to writer and journalist Ros Coward who’s co-authored a new book “Diana: Remembering the Princess”Award winning musician Sarah Class who has composed and produced the music for the series ‘BBC Africa’ narrated by Sir David Attenborough, plays live in the studio ahead of her appearance at the Earth Prom concert at the Royal Albert Hall on 27th August, as part of the BBC Proms series.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Both Russia and China's authorities are reaching for leavers of the state in a bid to boost the number of children born. I don't know if you've seen these two separate stories, but I wanted to bring them to your attention. Because they're doing it in different ways and for differing reasons.

In Russia, President Putin has revived a Soviet-era award for women who have ten or more children. They will be awarded the Mother Heroine gold medal, decorated with the Russian flag and the country's coat of arms, and awarded a one-off payment of one million rubles which equates to around 13 and a half thousand pounds after their 10th child has reached its first birthday and on the condition the other nine children are still alive. It's been launched as Russia faces a demographic crisis that's been made worse by the casualties from the war in Ukraine

and also people choosing to leave the country. News from China today reveals that the country's health authorities are clamping down on abortions, which are, quote, not medically necessary to tackle its plunging birth rate, amid concerns about an untenable ageing population. What is your reaction when you hear of such state interventions, when it comes to women's bodies, women's choices, autonomy, families, how they're formed, the flexing of the state muscle to try and influence procreation in this way. My guest today, when talking about Russia, will fill us in on the history of such moves in that country and the impact of such strategies on women's lives and the community around them, and men's lives, of course, too.

But your take is always very welcome. You can text me here at the programme here at Women's Hour. The number is 84844. The text will be charged your standard rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email me through our website, and you can now send a WhatsApp message or a voice note. I love a voice note.

Using the number 03700 100 444. I should say data charges may apply, so you might wish to use Wi-Fi. And all terms and conditions are on our website. Also on today's programme, one woman's fight to free her son. You will hear her story shortly. A scented social media trend. To VAB or not to VAB? Tell you more about that soon. And the beautiful grand piano in the Woman's Hour studio is going to be in the capable hands of Sarah Class. All that to come and more. But first, let me tell you about who I was talking about when I mentioned a woman who is fighting,

because this concerns Rampton Secure Hospital, which has been home and is home to some of the most dangerous and disturbed people in the country. Former patients include the Soham murderer Ian Huntley and Charles Bronson, often referred to as Britain's most violent prisoner. It is now also home to Adam Downs, who is one of 15 people with learning disabilities and or autism who is in a high security hospital and facility, I should say,

and has not been convicted of an offence. His mother, Alison Rogers, is now fighting for her son Adam to be cared for in the community and to be freed. Adam first went into care when he was 13 and has been in a variety of different inpatient units since then. He's now 30. He was moved into Rampton last July. It's an awful place to go and visit. You go into reception, you give your name and they give you a card around your neck to display that you're a visitor.

Then if you brought any things in, they all have to go and be checked. You then go through into a area where you know, like you go when you go into the airport through these metal detectors. And then obviously you're searched. You have a full body searched. Then you go into another area where you're actually waiting for staff to come and collect you from the ward. You go through very large, high high thick doors with very large keys you're then escorted through through the hospital you actually go on to the ward then with the staff member meets you there um you go on with the patients and then you're directed into the room

and then my son comes into the room with a member of staff from his room. Is it frightening? It is quite frightening, yes. Yes, it is quite frightening, yeah. And how do you think Adam's doing in this? Well, it's absolutely awful. I really can't imagine how he's managing all this environment with the learning disability he actually has. And I don't think he's managing at all because every time I see him he's always asking me mum what are you doing to get me out of Rampton. So if you don't mind

how does he communicate that to you? He will tell me that because he can communicate in simple words he can communicate with you but it's when it comes to staff talking to him right he wouldn't understand what they're saying, but he doesn't retain the information, what they've said for any length of time. So, you know, my feeling is how is he going to manage that environment and do the work that he should be doing to come out of that hospital? Because to be honest with you, he just wouldn't be able to. Has he changed while he's been in there? He has. He sits very quietly. He doesn't say very much.

You know, the last time I went to see him was last Monday. He just says a few words to me, you know, simple words that he can say. And then he just sits quiet, basically, and doesn't say much at all. And is he free to go out? go out no he's not he's kept behind he's in a ward environment he's kept behind locked doors and the only time that he can go out is with a member of staff if they've got no staff then obviously he can't go out you know what with the hot weather what they do there is because i seem to think that adam does spend a lot of time in his room because on visits he goes he comes from his room and he goes back to his room.

So I think unless he's doing anything, he spends quite a lot of time in his room. Have you been given any idea of when he'll be allowed or able to leave or what he has to do to qualify to leave? I haven't, no, no, no. So you don't know when when when he asks you i don't know when but there is a ctr that's coming up on the 23rd a care and treatment review a review way approach okay and and now what would be the the ideal outcome for you in terms of a care package that he could have instead well the ideal outcome for me would be for him to have a bespoke package

supported around his needs only, you know, with the right care team, with the right place for him, maybe have his own house being supported by carers that can, you know, take him out into the community, you know, have regular trips and support him through the day and evening. There may be people listening who think, well, perhaps there are professionals who think he could pose some kind of risk,

which is why they perhaps put him in this situation in the first place, this sort of facility. What would you say to those who might be concerned about him living in that environment that you talk about within society i would like to say that my son is no threat to anybody in society adam is not an aggressive person but people with autism if something's not going right for them can get really upset but with adam because he lacks communication and can't tell anybody what is wrong um then what happens is he he can display a behavior which is not challenging behavior

like the doctors call it it's the behavior to communicate with staff to show how you know and what is happening and how upset he is so it's a way and it's a form of communication has he lashed out physically over the years not that i know i've no he hasn't the only time that maybe he has done but it's going back a long long time was you know when when he's restrained because when he's restrained he gets upset about that because he has had bruises on him through restraints and he was face down at one time in a mattress he nearly suffocated so it's like you either fight flight or freeze um so he just doesn't lash out but he just jiggles while he's being while he's being restrained to get himself in that better position.

He wouldn't know what he's doing because obviously he was always face down during restraint. You've gone public with your fight, as you call it, to try and free your son. Has that made any difference? Do you feel you are being listened to as his mother? I don't feel that I'm being listened to, obviously, within the hospital environment.

The only updates that they give me are during ward rounds, when Adam's present, you know, and they'll go into things like his medication and how he's doing, and basically that's all I get. They won't discuss anything else with me. You know, I just hope that one day that my son, you know, will come out of hospital. He's actually traumatised me.

I was going to say, I wanted to ask how you were in all of this. Yeah, well, to be honest with you, it has traumatised me. I can't seem to get on with my life because I know my son's in there. You know, it's like having a son and not having him because I can't, you know, have contact with him at all. having him because i can't you know have contact with

him at all it stays every day with me to be honest with you alison rogers talking about her son adam who is in the high security hospital rampton now mencap the charity that works with people living with learning disabilities is campaigning with alison to get adam back into bespoke care in the community. The charity says that at least 2,000 people with learning disabilities or autism are currently being detained in inpatient hospital units in England. The government is not reaching the targets it set in 2011 to offer personalised care. Dan Scorer is Head of Policy and Public Affairs at the charity. Good morning.

Good morning. Just to reflect on what we were hearing from Alison, there'll be those who think, well, there must have been an assessment here. There must have been a look at this. And we do have a statement from Nottinghamshire Healthcare, the trust who run Rampton, which says, all patients at Rampton are detained under the Mental Health Act, have been through thorough assessments to determine where they can be best treated. While some patients are cared for at Rampton due to serious offences in the context of their mental health problems, patients with autism being cared for are there because of the level of risk that they may present to the public and themselves

due to violent behaviours. What's your response to that? Well I think the phrase violent behaviours is fundamentally wrong and Alison made it very clear that, I think the phrase violent behaviours is fundamentally wrong. And Alison made it very clear that Adam hasn't shown any violent behaviours. What's happening here is that people with a learning disability and autistic people are being put into these kind of settings, which fundamentally can't meet their needs. These are chaotic places with bright lights, noisy staff changes. They are not the right kind of settings. So people are going in there for what should be short periods of assessment and treatment where they're in a crisis situation.

But they're remaining stuck in there for years. The average length of stay is over five years. This whole system is being fundamentally misused. You know, people are spending, you know, Adam spent half of his life there. He's missed, you know, all of his adult life so far. That is utterly unacceptable and tragic. It's happening to other people too. The government have recognised that autistic and learning disabled people should not be detained under the Mental Health Act unless they have a mental health problem.

A new law is being introduced into Parliament now to make that happen. So it's fundamentally clear that people are being caught up in a mental health system which isn't able to meet their needs and then traps them. And as has happened in Adam's case, where a system can't meet your needs, you of course respond to that. When you're being subjected to things like physical restraint, being kept in solitary confinement or pumped full of antipsychotic medication when you don't have a mental health problem, that is an utterly intolerable situation for people to be in. To your point, a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care has said, we've published our Building the Right Support Action Plan in July.

This will help us reduce the number of people. So, I mean, last month, like you're saying, this is quite recent, some of the movement on this, in mental health, inpatient settings more quickly, through developing community support, including putting key workers in place for children and young people with the most complex needs. In particular, this will ensure we meet our target by March next year of reducing by half the number of people with a learning disability and autistic people being treated as inpatients.

And there's also mentioned here the draft mental health bill issued in June recommends changes to the Mental Health Act to limit the scope to detain people with a learning disability and autistic people for treatment unless they have a mental illness that justifies a longer stay or are admitted through the criminal justice system. If those changes come in, if those commitments are met, and if, for instance, in Alison and Adam's case, their case changes, if Adam is released effectively. Do you think we have the systems in place to look after Adam? No. And I think that's the key thing, which is the government, after the Winterbourne View abuse scandal, which was exposed by the BBC back in 2011, pledged to fundamentally change this system.

They haven't. Again, in 2015, another strategy was published led by NHS England, which pledged to close beds by 2019. That target was missed, deferred for a year, missed. And here we are now where we've got a target to close half the beds by March 2024. But I don't think anyone thinks that's going to be achieved. The trajectory we're on so far is not encouraging. And we have a situation where there's a postcode lottery up and down the country in terms of the support that's available in the community. So for Adam's case, if I may keep with that, and what Alison's fighting for, she could fight for her son, if she could be successful, let's put it like that, to be released, to where and to what? So what he and other people like him should have is a house, an ordinary house in the community.

They may need a house to themselves. They may be able to live with others and a specialist social care staff team who can support them 24 hours a day. But you're not sure, depending on where Adam lives and the provision, if that is available? Well, I think the problem is that in some parts of the country, we've got better levels of support than others. In some parts of the country, this agenda around getting people out of units and ensuring people that don't go in is actually going backwards. It's getting worse. In other parts of the country, we're seeing more success. So what we need to see is uniform investment in the support in the community, both so people can come back out of inpatient units and resettle in their communities, and so that a new generation of people don't go in. Because how this

happens is that people living in the community, you know, as Adam was, a crisis situation of some kind emerges. If there aren't the skilled staff to support that person in the community, then commissioners reach for an admission to an inpatient hospital. And people are often sent hundreds of miles away from their family and then remain stuck there for years on end. And I suppose just because we've got to deal with the reality that we have at the moment, could Adam be safely released, do you think, at the moment for himself? Yes, absolutely. You know, we've worked with many families in similar situations. I mean, if there isn't some of that support, that's the key thing. That's what I'm talking about, not about Adam.

It has to be a well-planned and managed process, you know, probably over a six to 12-month period. And, you know, Alison was saying she's not involved, she's not consulted. And that's unacceptable. She should be. And she mentioned that important planning meeting that's coming up, I think, you know, in literally a matter of days. And she should be a core part of that. It's that you know as a family member an advocate for him that she is being shut out of that and is that common that does happen yeah that families are not properly

involved in this process that families are not able to visit loved ones that families that speak out in the media are then uh barred from visiting their loved ones so that has an impact yeah or they feel that their loved one then faces consequences about the way they're treated after they speak out in the media. I did get the sense it was a real decision for her to speak to a programme like this, to speak to the papers, and a real move on her part. It is. It's a really brave thing to do.

Other families we've worked with have been barred then from visiting their loved ones once they've spoken out in the media, said that they've distressed their loved one. All kinds of spurious reasons are given about why they shouldn't be allowed to speak out. And there's an attempt to silence them when they know that their loved one is being subjected to unacceptable practices. Alison talked about the bruises. Other families we've worked with, people have experienced broken bones when they've been restrained. And I mentioned also people being kept for weeks in solitary confinement in cells, as Adam was,

where he was fed through a hatch and had to urinate into a bottle. I mean, these are things that most people would think are from the 19th century, but they're happening here today now. Thank you very much for talking to us. Dan Scorer, Head of Policy and Public Affairs at Mencap. Of course, we'll try and stay with this story and see what happens with Adam and stay in touch with Alison, as she has been so kind to talk to us about what's going on at the moment and that key planning meeting coming up. Well, you mentioned the 19th century. We're talking also today about policies coming back.

And in Russia in particular, if you're a mother in that country, and you have 10 children, you'll now be rewarded by the president. That's because Vladimir Putin is bringing back an award which Joseph Stalin introduced in 1944 to introduce large families after 10s of millions of Soviet citizens died in the Second World War. It was called the Mother Heroin Awards and more than 400,000 women received it before it was scrapped after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. This time around women will get a one-off payment of a million rubles, that's 13,500 pounds roughly, after their 10th child is a year old as long as the other nine children are still alive. Mothers will also get gold medals

with Russian flags on and the country's coat of arms. Dr Jenny Mathis is a senior lecturer of international politics at Aberystwyth University and an expert on Russian politics and security. Jenny, good morning. Welcome back to the programme. Morning. Thanks for being with us. Many people have already got in touch with us hearing this news. They may have missed it yesterday. There's a lot going on and not a lot going on almost at the same time, if that makes sense, in August at the moment. But it's quite a striking thing to sort of take the time to read. It is. It's, you know, on the one hand, you can see the logic behind an effort to encourage women to have children in Russia, because, you know because after COVID,

which already hit the birth rate quite hard, the war in Ukraine, which has obviously killed tens of thousands of mainly young men, and of course, tens of thousands of Russians have left the country in protest against the war. So there are reasons to be concerned about the birth rate.

But it's absolutely typical, actually, of the Putin regime to look to the past to try and find solutions to the problems of the present and the future. There is no real kind of forward looking vision in this leadership. It's very much about, well, let's see what Stalin did. You know, let's see what happened 50, 60, 100 years ago. Let's do that. And I really don't think this is going to be terribly effective for today's woman in Russia. I was going to say, do we know about the average size of a family in Russia? Yeah, we know that Russian women on average only have 1.6 children throughout the whole of their lives. So this is less than the replacement rate, which is 2.2 children. So

obviously, the population is shrinking on that measure. And so, you know, the idea that they're going to jump from having fewer than two children on average to having 10, because they have the prospect of a shiny medal, and a one off payment at the end of that 10th child turning one, you know, it's pretty extraordinary. And it really sort of ignores all the other realities of life in Russia at the moment and reasons why women are not having large families. Yes, I mean, indeed, there's a few people getting in touch, some of our listeners saying that this is a distraction, this is a PR move, this is something to take away from the reality of the economic situation, both in Russia and in China, but also in Russia, regarding the war in Ukraine. And I wonder, because we spoke, I think, last time about

the mothers of Russia, the particular group, which are more powerful than perhaps people realise, in terms of holding Putin's feet a little bit to the fire when it comes to what's happening to their children, in particular to their sons. Yeah, it's a complicated, actually, relationship that's developed between the regime and mothers in Russia. Because, you know, when we last spoke, which was right after the invasion began in February, there were indications that the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers

could be a powerful sort of actor. But since then, it's become a lot more complicated. And we've seen, you know, quite a lot of mothers of soldiers, even soldiers who died in the war, actually coming out in favor of the war and praising their encourage their young sons, their grown sons rather, to join the military and to go and fight in Ukraine. Because, of course, another criticism when this was announced, I believe yesterday, this return to this policy of old was this is an indication of how Putin views women, of how Putin views mothers, and a criticism that this is another sign of just viewing women as those who can provide cannon fodder for his militaristic dreams and ambitions. Yeah, well, the government in Russia at the moment is very heavily male dominated at the top. You know, the Security Council only has one woman and she's sort of there because she serves another role.

So people who make the decisions about war and peace in Russia are definitely men. There's very little room and this isn't decision making circles for women. And it's a very patriarchal society. It's a very traditional conservative society. And in fact, Putin is very proud of that fact. And this is one of the things that he thinks is a selling point

for Russia, especially towards the global south, is that he's willing to stand up for traditional social family values, like heterosexual marriage, only like anti LGBT kind of legislation, like taking away the criminalization of domestic violence, which has happened in Russia about five years ago. So no longer is it a criminal offence to beat your wife. So, you know, there's a whole package of measures, legislative, but also sort of rhetoric coming from the regime, which really tells women where their place is. And that's not, you know, side by side, equal with men making professional decisions. And the reality of this award, though, when it did come about before, if we look at the history of it, does also give you a very interesting insight into how things have changed in a

relatively short space of time, of how women and these choices, if we can term them that, it wasn't always a choice, of course, with any freedom, have altered and how they can be or cannot be impacted by the state. Yeah, exactly. I mean, when Stalin introduced this in 1944, the world was in a different place. The Soviet Union was an all out war. And, you know, attitudes towards women were definitely not as advanced as they are now, even in Russia. And so women were much more willing and able to have large families and sort of heeded this call. Now, you know, one of the reasons why Russia's population has been shrinking is that the

last big demographic dip was in the 1990s. And so you have now women who are of childbearing age who were born in the 1990s. This means there are fewer of them because there was such a contraction in the 1990s. So he's trying to get more and more babies out of fewer and fewer women. And it's just not going to work. And there's some draft legislation that would outlaw any public discussion of being child free as well on the table in Russia. Yes. So this is really typical as well, because Russia will give a very small carrot as an incentive and then come along with a very big stick to beat you with

if you try and oppose the new sort of powers that be. So, yes, exactly. I mean, it is also of a piece with the idea that, you know, Russia is an anti-homosexual society, you know, being child-free sort of suggests that there's something wrong with you. Maybe you're not normal. Maybe you could be gay. Maybe you could be a drug addict. Maybe you could be a criminal. There's something that's not right about someone who chooses not to have children.

Margaret's texted in to say these are crazy ideas. The choices of how many children one has shouldn't depend on bribes from Putin. We must leave room for nature. Women's bodies are not machines. And for a healthy life for children, an exhausted mother is not good news. Nor would a population of 10 billion humans be good news for nature. That's a point many others are making. These countries that are oppressing women to have more children

are doing so to increase their cannon fodder or power by numbers, reads another message. The world has an overpopulation problem. Also, women are not breeding machines. Although, of course, others chiming in to say there's a population problem in terms of the age, not necessarily the number. And that's the other concern here. Jenny, just a word. I know it's not your specialism, China per se, but are you struck by also hearing that news from China that the country's health authorities are clamping down on abortions termed not medically

necessary in a bid to tackle its plunging birth rate? Yes, I mean, this is classic, actually, for societies which feel that they're getting things are getting out of control. It's first control women and control their childbearing, control their sexuality, control their ability to earn money and spend it. And it's absolutely classic. And you can see it right around the world. You can see it right around the world. You can see it in my native country, the United States, around the issues around abortion there too. So it's something, unfortunately, that we tend to see in times of crisis

and in times when governments in particular feel that they're losing their grip. Dr. Jenny Mathers, good to talk to you again. Thanks for coming back on the programme. I'm sure we'll speak again. Well, we'll see how this develops and anything else that comes out of that field in your specialism. Senior lecturer of international politics at Aberystwyth University

and an expert on Russian politics and security. Now to something else altogether different, because if you're a social media user, you may be familiar with this concept. It's called vabbing, vaginal dabbing. I personally was not. If you're similarly in the dark, as I was until yesterday, let me enlighten you. Vabbing is apparently where you use your own vaginal fluid as a perfume behind the ears and neck. Proponents claim it acts as an aphrodisiac

to would-be lovers by spreading pheromones. It was recently made more popular again, because it's been around before, some of you have been in touch already to tell me that, by the American TikToker called Mandy Lee. Her original video racked up one and a half million views and counting. And I'm sure many of you will have some views on this. Are you a vabber? Or do you not think that's quite the one for you? Are you perhaps preferring to reach for the perfume if you do such things? Or is it just a fad? Or should I say vad? Not my joke, but we're using it we're using it let's talk now to the sex expert tracy cox and also to the evolutionary biologist dr tristram wyatt who's an expert in pheromones and emeritus professor at kellogg college oxford welcome to you both tr, to VAB or not to VAB? To VAB. Tell me. Definitely. I actually

wrote about this in my first ever book, which was 22 years ago. I didn't call it VABing, but I did think that using your vaginal secretion as a perfume was a very sexy thing to do. Now, we were all crazy about pheromones back then. Now, of course, we know that they don't work in the way that they do. But I still think that it works on two levels. And the first one is, if you put a finger inside your vagina and use the secretion behind your ear, this is a very deliberate, conscious act. You are saying, I'm going to walk out that door because I feel like sex. I feel like meeting somebody. It's very different than walking out the door and putting a bit of lipstick and perfume on and going, yeah, maybe I'll meet somebody. Maybe I won't. And the act of babbing is actually

admitting to yourself that you want sex, that you want to attract a partner. So if you walk out having done that, you are going to behave behave differently you're going to make more eye contact you're probably going to touch more you're probably going to flirt more so people will respond to you differently so in that sense I think it does attract a partner not on the pheromone level but on the actual act of doing it and what was the other level you was there another part to this yes I think that what it does is celebrate the vagina and after being a sex educator for 30 years I so many um you know still it hasn't changed at all women are very ashamed of their genitals they don't like the way they look and

they particularly don't like the way they smell and if you're going to use your vaginal secretion as a perfume it doesn't just say hey you know I'm not ashamed of my vagina you're going to use your vaginal secretion as a perfume it doesn't just say hey you know i'm not ashamed of my vagina you're actually celebrating it and embracing it so surely i mean this has to be a good thing i think it's a very good thing to embrace the way our genitals the natural scent of the genitals do you vibe tracy i don't now because i've i've been i'm 60 years old and i'm sort of being with my partner for 10 years well you know if you were going to get back out there, it sounds like you might. I don't think it's a bad idea. Now, whether people are conscious of what they're smelling, I don't know about that,

because I think you'd have to have a particularly strong scent for people to go, hang on a minute, that girl over there is wearing her vagina as perfume. Yeah, I was at pains to stress in my introduction, it's your own vagina here. You're not using anybody else's for this particular trend. Tristram, let me welcome you to this conversation. Good morning. Good morning. Is there any evidence at all that pheromones work in this way, that this could have an impact rather than your psychological outlook for the day day that Tracy describes? In other animals, definitely, yes. And one of the things about humans is, of course, we're mammals. And like other mammals, we're really smelly. So if we were treating ourselves like another mammal, there'd be good evidence,

or rather, there'd be good a priori evidence, we'd be thinking perhaps smells could be doing something like this. I really agree with everything that Tracy was saying. There could be a strong placebo effect. If you put it behind your ears, then you're going to go out with confidence and you may well be getting more attention just because you're reciprocating and perhaps even initiating. But sadly, there really isn't any evidence so far for human pheromones as to a mammals i think it's highly likely our sense of smell is very good uh the problem has been that smell has not been studied um as much as vision and hearing so we don't know that much about our sense of

smell as we should and particularly we don't know that much about our sense of smell as we should and particularly we don't know that much about the role of smell in sex way back um to the beginning of the 20th century havelock ellis was speculating um on darwinian grounds that probably there were things going on to do with smell and they've always been enthusiasts like napoleon apparently uh for the smell of his lover Josephine don't wash I'm coming home or whatever yeah so the the idea that smells could be important I think is highly likely the problem is we've not studied them enough I've got a couple of messages uh thank you for putting us in the picture on how we fit into the animal kingdom on this. Tracey, can I read you, in particular to you, a couple of messages? One that says, Vab, what the actual heck?

I can't imagine doing this. Just think of the effect it might have on others if you've got a whiffy foo-foo. It reads one message. And Cher said, ooh, women's hour, I'm eating breakfast. That's a very leisurely time. But I'm not going to make a judgment about that. Tracey, there's somewhere it's safe to say i'm not feeling the love for this um because it's probably something that i mean again it feeds back into this whole thing about sex being something to be ashamed of our genitals being

something to be ashamed of but you not you might not be ashamed you might just not want to wear yourself as a perfume and that's fine if you don't want to i think it appeals to a certain type of person and i there is still something that's very proactive and feminist about it. Even though we've just heard that, I know what you were saying about the psychological element, that there's no proof it's actually going to increase your chances. I wonder from your perspective, having been doing this for so many years and especially talked to so many women,

what's your take on the fact that this is again taken off with the TikTok generation or some of them? But in a way, I'm quite pleased that it's taken off with the TikTok generation. I read that she'd taken it down, the video, which I was just about. No, I think it's great. And I think, you know, this generation might be the generation of women that actually like their genitals and embrace the fact that they don't all look the same, that they're not going to all look like you see on porn. So maybe, I mean, good luck to her. Maybe if she can spread that message, then I'm all for it. Jenny says each to their own, definitely cheaper than Joe Malone. And someone else reminded me that Coco Chanel's

very 90s. Tristram, is there a male version, do you think, of this? Could there be? It's not something I've tried. There could be. Good to know. But it's not getting the same sort of press. I wonder why. Yeah, and I think, I mean, as was perhaps mentioned, if there is a bad smell, then it's time to see a doctor. But generally, gentle smells should just be um sweet and nice yeah one thing that is um perhaps not getting the attention is that we do of course

uh smell slightly differently so we all have a slightly different bacterial flora and quite a bit of the smell is not just uh what we secrete but it's also the bacteria that the natural bacteria that are growing on us so So generally speaking, things should smell sweet. Otherwise, get it seen to. Also good advice. Dr. Tristram Wyatt, good to have you on the programme. Thanks for being so candid. And to you too, Tracy Cox, always nice to have you and your expertise.

And I'm sure for you, a real interest in this coming back around more than two decades on when you first wrote about it. All messages coming in to say some of the responses. I haven't found anybody who sounds like they're completely up for this yet, but maybe they're keeping that to themselves. There's one here. There's a far more effective way of attracting men than putting vaginal fluid behind your ears.

Try putting your feet there. I've not got any names on that. I don't know if that's a man or a woman, but there we go. Another one. Have the proponents of this been reading old James Herbert books? I first saw this in one of his books, The Magic Cottage? I can't remember exactly. It was over 30 years ago.

One of the characters in the book did it to try and seduce men. And more saying, you think the world perhaps has gone mad. A message here from Sue, who's felt the need to say she's aged 60. This is the most disgusting thing I've ever heard on Women's Hour. The world has gone officially mad. Well, who knows what's going to be on Women's Hour next week because I should say it's Listener's Week. And as we do every year at this time in August, I love it.

My first one in the hot seat was last year and I did really love it. There were some items and discussions that we would never have thought of even with a brilliant team like we have here because you get in touch and tell us what you're thinking about from, I don't know, the mundane. I remember there was a brilliant item we discussed about cleaning out your attic and what you'd found in it, through to the joy of being average, through to some rather more extraordinary tales of things you'd found in your own family or campaigns that you were working on. Maybe there's a surprising hobby, maybe you've beaten a record, maybe you've done a job that no one's ever heard of there's a surprising hobby. Maybe you've beaten a record. Maybe you've done a job

that no one's ever heard of or had a change of role. I would love to hear, as would the team, from you what you would like to hear on the programme next week. Also, who you'd like to hear me interview.

Perhaps there's someone you need to be held to account or you've never actually heard a particular conversation with someone. We will try and make it happen. Nothing too difficult, she says now,

mundane or unusual, as you've just heard. So do get in touch with us via the Women's Hour website, Listener Week, all next week. And I'm very much looking forward to seeing what you have for me and for all of us. So please don't hold back. Come on, we've just talked about vabbing. It's all on the table. Now, a discussion now that takes in really something, I mean, entirely different, but also really a concept of how something figures in our mind. And it's the concept of princesses and the role of women within that role and perhaps how they have or haven't changed over the last 25 years, because it is a quarter of a century on since the world learned of the death of Princess Diana in a car accident in Paris. It may not seem like it's been 25 years. For some of you, it will be an extremely vivid memory indeed. She was a hugely popular figure with a lot of the public.

But she did once famously say being a princess isn't all it's cracked up to be. Well, what is Diana's real legacy? Like it or loathe it? And what are the views of a woman in a princess role and how have they changed? I'm joined by Ros Coward, who wrote the only authorised biography of Diana, published in 2004 and has now co-authored a new book, Diana Remembering the Princess. And by my colleague, Anita Anand, who's interrupting her holiday kindly to join us on the line because she recently launched a new BBC series and very good it is to called Princess. So warm welcome to you both. Anita, actually, if I may start with you, I wonder just if we could take this moment to think about Diana. It is 25 years we're approaching that anniversary and how well or not well she fitted the princess mould at the time?

Well, I mean, in many ways, the perfect princess, because she's so complicated and, you know, scratching the surface of that title, you find an ocean of complexities behind many of the women who unfortunately had to take the tiara. So, you know, at the beginning, pretty, virginal, pure, that sort of idea that we have of almost the Disney princess who could have a bird land on her hat and have a really lovely chat before cornflakes. You know, she did all of that. But then there is a steel to her. There is an attitude to her. And there is a sense that, you know, a woman coming into her power. So you have two different Dionysus.

You know, you've got the my shy die. Do you remember that headline? And the sun you know who fulfills that criteria and then latterly um you know the woman who says actually in my own right i will not have this i do not want this and so and unfortunately with that title often we found particularly in this series you know tragedies often wrapped up also so in many ways em Emma she is the embodiment of a very complicated title yes and and and the other stories if we we won't be able to go through all of them and people can go and look up your your brilliant podcast which has been enlightening me uh around different stories but you you look at across how the concept of princess has been stretched and changed by different different women in that role let me bring in Ros at this point. We mentioned there the shy die as she was, but she found her voice. Some have

argued she became a feminist, not perhaps by label, but because of what happened to her. She went on that road. Yes, I think she absolutely started as the idealised princess and then found, she found it wasn't as advertised. You know, she found that her husband didn't love her, was having a relationship with somebody else or was more involved with somebody else, and that she was the object of sort of scrutiny and she was followed by the press. She was exposed to sort of really all those aspects about women's bodies, about our judgments over women's bodies.

And then, you know, she also, because of the sort of disappointments of her life, she embarked on a kind of journey to find her own personal raison d'etre. And so much of this in her 20s, in the public eye, and then into her 30s. Yes, she was very, very young, and that's something one has to remember about everything to do with Diana's life, that she died young. She never became old.

She never became a mature, middle-aged woman. But, you know, her journey to find a sort of independent raison d'etre, it wasn't feminism as we might think of it, as sort of having a career and being an equal player in the sort of male world. But she was forced to find some kind of meaning to her life outside her marriage and her motherhood. And I think that journey was one that women related to very closely, so that that was her connection with people.

She sort of lived out that feminist parable almost. And so even though she doesn't obviously represent, you know, ordinary women, she nevertheless became every woman. And for some. And when we think back, again, to take a moment of that week of outpouring of grief that there was when she died, it is something quite extraordinary to recall, isn't it, now? And what really went on there and why so many felt connected and why so many women did? Absolutely. I mean, I remember it vividly. And I went up into central London and immersed myself in the crowds. And it was quite like anything else, unlike anything else that I've ever witnessed. And I think that that was very much because people did feel curiously connected to her.

And I think importantly, there's a sort of move at the moment to a lot of people sort of say, oh, we all went mad. The world went mad. You know, why did people? It was mass hysteria. And they deny that connection that people feel. And I think relating to Anita's comments about princesses, that what we're witnessing a bit around Diana is there's a kind of desire to forget her or forget the impact she had or to forget the connection she had. Because, and I think this is to do with, again, a sort of feminist aspect, is that a lot of feminism is involved with recovering women's stories. They're hidden from history, as Sheila Robotham once wrote a book of that name.

Yes. And I think what we're sort of witnessing is slow-motion history of a sort of struggle to forget Diana, to reduce her significance, to say she wasn't that. And Anissa, you've seen some of these themes with other princesses that you've been looking at, haven't you? Oh, I mean, absolutely. And it goes back in time. So I mean, the one I'm just thinking of now, which will be in a future episode, is Caroline Brunswick, who, you know, was the woman betrothed to the future King George IV,

who is roped into what is obviously a bigamist marriage, and then quickly says, right, I'm not having this, you know, and it's sort of very much like the Protean Diana story, where she won't have it. She sets up almost her own court, a court within a court, the country is divided. It's a political crisis. And it leads to this extraordinary scene where George is being crowned as the day of his coronation. He hasn't invited his own wife. He hasn't invited her. And she's there hammering on the doors of Westminster Abbey to let her in. You know, so these things, we have witnessed them before. Also, I mean, just on the the tiny thing I was very interested in what Roz had to say about how people are diminishing looking back and diminishing and I remember when when Diana died and I remember the effect it had because I was working at that time for an Asian TV station and the impact it had both in India and Pakistan was profound and it wasn't because

you know here's a beautiful woman undoubtedly beautiful woman and it's a tragic story but it was because they totally related to this idea that here was somebody who was in an arranged marriage that hadn't worked out here's something as basic and human and relatable to them as that and I found that very very touching but you know as far as princesses Emma who kicked the mold in the head know, you've got people going back to, say, the 13th century, you know, people like Genghis Khan's great-granddaughter, Kutulun, who, despite this being quite a patriarchy, you know, the Mongols, really a patriarchal society, said, I'm not getting married unless the man can defeat me in a wrestling match.

And if they can't defeat me, they have to bring 10,000 horses. She ends up having the greatest number of horses in the mongol kingdom no one can beat her you know you are a treasure you are a treasure trove of of hidden princess stories which is why you are the perfect woman to to make this this series of course but i did not know that one i feel every time i i talk to you or listen to you anita i'm gonna i'm gonna get another one you you must be a brilliant person to have around a table at the moment you're just your head's filled with them kind you're very very kind but I think also the the reclaiming of those stories is is a big part of what you have been

doing and and just to just come finally to you if I can Ros I think in your book you've co-written it with uh Ken Wolfe who was one of the personal security officers to Princess Diana. And he also just talks about her wanting to disrupt how she was a parent within the royal family. I also like the detail, though, that she didn't get the children ready. They would be ready for her by the door, you know, washed and ready. And I think just details like that, he just writes about it. You know, it's a throwaway comment in one of the chapters. It just reminds you that it's amazing how they can still feel these women, relatable, yet they have such privilege.

Yes, I think Diana was a classic example. I mean, she definitely came from a very privileged background. She moved in a privileged milieu, but she did, as Ken Wolfe points out, you know, that she really tried her absolute best to treat her children in a more sort of ordinary way. One of the words he heard most often from her was that she just wanted their upbringing to be normal. And to some extent, that is a legacy that she has left behind, which is that her boys do in their different ways they have tried to continue some of the things that she herself started with reaching out to people to taking on charities that were not fashionable and some would say also perhaps the impact on the royal family as a whole you know with uh with some of the ways that the approaches are now made the charities that are

included in the portfolios. The book is called, the new book, Diana Remembering the Princess, co-written by Ros Coward. Thank you for your recollections today. And thank you, Anita, get back to your holiday. Anita and I, the series is called Princess and you can find it on BBC Sounds. I have to say, many also getting in touch still about our previous item, about vabbing.

And a message here from helen who says i just want to object to the male guest who said it should smell sweet and nice otherwise see a doctor what does sweet mean like a rose a dreadful message to send out natural body odors are not necessarily sweet they may be earthy rich please offer a more realistic message to women who are often concerned about their natural scent helen, I think to clarify, if I may, I don't usually speak for our guests, but perhaps he was talking about if there's a very unusual smell,

a bad smell in inverted commas, he meant to see a doctor. But yes, you didn't like the word sweet, as is your right. And Rob says, my mum married my dad for his smell. She's always said so. She's 90 now and she'll likely have a Radio 4 on, Radio 4 on in the care room,

where she is in the care home room. She gave us her kids, her family, genetic keen sense of smell. We can all vouch to dad's particular smell. Suitably earthy for an old Scottish soldier and he died aged 96 five years ago. Sadly, I lost all sense of my own smell over 10 years ago quite suddenly. A side effect of medication, I think. So no perfume gets to me now. And many more messages coming in regarding that particular discussion

so thank you keep them coming in about all sorts as you always do but now a real musical treat because let me tell you who's walked into the studio she's sitting at the beautiful grand piano we have in this studio no less

Sarah Class an award-winning composer and singer-songwriter she writes scores for film and television. A new album is out, Resonate, and a new single with Ema Quinn, Nyads of Nymfes, based on the lyrical poetry of Sappho, a celebration of female love, friendship and appreciation. And I should say, Sarah, your love of nature, I know, translates into your music.

Just to say a few more parts of your career, she's composed and produced the music for the series BBC Africa, narrated by Sir David Attenborough, for which she won a Gold Spirit Award for Best Score and an Emmy nomination. And some of her BBC Africa music is to be performed at the Earth Prom concert at the Royal Albert Hall, coming up very shortly on the 27th of August as part of the BBC Proms series.

Good morning. Good morning, Emma. You're breaking the Natural History Unit I believe that's where you got it and it brought together your passions for animals and music. It did, it did. I have my father to thank for getting me really interested in nature. I was brought up on a nature reserve and yes it was a dream job in many ways. It was a hard graft to get into the BBC. And I started in the natural history unit. And then I met this producer.

I would hassle him every two weeks to give me a job. And then one day he said, oh, well, we've got some music. We need some music to some seals and some dolphins. But we've only got 400 quid. And I was like, that's a fortune. It's an absolute fortune. Sign me up. Yes, sign me up.

BBC were paying me about £2.50, you know. So because of, you know, I've mentioned a few parts of your work there, but you've also composed music to go with footage that's to do with ants. You've mentioned seals there. Everything. How do you find the music to go with the animal? Well, I think you're inspired by many, many things, you know, and seals there? Everything. How do you find the music to go with the animal? Well, I think you're inspired by many, many things.

For example, yes, I've just been doing this little piece of music to these ants making a raft. And I don't know, if you've got big grand scenics, you're inspired by the beauty of it. So I tend to go towards the epic and the cinematic when I write Only because I want to make sure we've got enough time for your performance you are going to perform something called Blackbird for us, tell us about that just before you do

Blackbird is really about celebrating the divinity within nature I feel that nature is not just the energy we feel when we're out in it. You know, the scientists say the negative ions. There's this other layer to nature that we're all affected by.

And I don't think we realize it, which is why we have to protect it. And it's really about that. It's also written for my father, who was very ill at the time. Luckily, he's so much better now. And it's also about human love and unconditional love between us all. Why don't you take it away? Okay. Blackbird, do I hear you in winter

As the echo of summer Keeps the warmth through my heart. Spirit brings the angel of nature through the song of a glad bird as the swallows depart. The weakening suns farewell as autumn is they sway the land. of these colors painted by your hands. Oh, Blackbird, you're my heart overflowing as a touchstone of brightness. From the dusk to the first light of dawn The moment of each day

Before my eyes will pass away But only love its constant song And beauty will remain Ooh, ooh, ooh Ooh, ooh, ooh Ooh, ooh, ooh Oh, Blamber, so much joy in your calling. Will you guide me when light is falling? You have made me immortal with a song everlasting in this heart of mine. Beautiful. Sarah Class there with Blackbird. Thank you so much for that. What do you think of when you perform that?

Well, I think really this thing I was saying about unconditional love. There's everything together, the whole, the people, the planet. I love people. I know we're a very flawed humanity. But I think this thing, if we can remember to be kind to people, kind to each other, because we're all struggling in our own ways with things. It's about compassion. And that's what I think about, is love between us all. That's what's important.

Yes, and I mentioned also with the single that's out based on the poetry of Sappho. Could you tell us a bit about that? Yes. Well, the single was inspired. I really love Greece. I go quite a lot to Greece and Greek myths, mythology. And Sappho's poetry, you know, a female poet, and she lived, I think, if I'm correct, around 630 to 570 BC. And she wrote this beautiful poet, poems, and she reached out to other women, you know, it's really celebrating female friendship,

love between women particularly. And I got my friend Ima Quinn to sing it with me, who's a very good friend. And yes, our voices go very well together. And there's not many people that I collaborate with. In fact, she's probably the only person. So yes, so it's all about nature. It's about the beauty of nature. It's about the waterfall at nymphes in

corfu which is very inspiring and also the mythology of greece i think there's this again the spiritual aspect of nature there's this hidden otherness to nature that we all um that we all are are aware of i think we don't always No. Well, a lot of messages coming in and also messages about nature raised at the programme today. Sarah Class, thank you to you. Thank you to you for your company. Back with you tomorrow at 10.

I'm Jade Adams and in Welcome to the Neighbourhood, I take a peek at the nation's community apps and message boards for some comedy eavesdropping. Does anyone know who's parked on our drive? I got hit by a potato on the high street earlier. Could you please

have some decency and close the curtains if you're having sex? Each episode I'll be joined in my online curtain twitching by a different guest including James Acaster You don't need to put out a thing to the local community. You can just go straight to the police. Sarah Keyworth. I highly doubt

she's read The Highway Code. And Helen Bower. They're inciting a riot in three sentences. Welcome to The Neighbourhood with me, Jade Adams, on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.